Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Jack]

I don't like albert's reason for voting johhan.

Vote:Albert

[Jack]

unvote,Vote:yogurtbandit

Don't see what he's saying against bm and he revealed himself pretty easy in another game, let's wagon.

[Jack]

Albert does seem... lurky. But I'm in another game with him (Mini 449) in which he is doing exactly the same. Again, we're both alive, but it does seem consistent.

Jack has brought up an interesting point, Yogurt barely has posted, even more so than Albert. If we're going after non contributers,

Unvote: Jack, Vote: YogurtBandit

I have posted less than either.

fos

beanbagboy. You seem to want to follow.

[Jack]

I'm not finding Glork very pro town. Don't agree with many of his posts.

I'm not in favor of a meta game lynch of BM. No behavior is 100% scummy so townies shouldn't be lynched for it, I don't find him that scummy anyway.

[Jack]

I'm not in favor of a meta-lynch of BM either. I'm in favor of getting him to adapt his playstyle so that he isn't practically

always

an immediate suspect

Frankly I don't see why he

is

always an immediate suspect and such people are useful as scum-bait anyway. The town just has to be smart enough to not speed lynch them.

[Jack]

That's what he was asking you.

[Jack]

I'm not in favor of a meta-lynch of BM either. I'm in favor of getting him to adapt his playstyle so that he isn't practically

always

an immediate suspect

Frankly I don't see why he

is

always an immediate suspect and such people are useful as scum-bait anyway. The town just has to be smart enough to not speed lynch them.

...which, I will note, we didn't do. (Speed-lynch BM, that is.)

But no, I agree with TCS that it tends to be distracting much more often than helpful. Your suspicion of me, as far as I can tell, stems from our difference in philosophies regarding this matter. Stating that you disagree with my stance/points on a general metagame topic does not equate to thinking somebody is scum.

I said I "didn't find you pro townie" so it was more of a feeling based on your posts. It's not more than a feeling because I can't reread (at work). Same goes for those other questions. I got the feeling you were faking your suspicions like scum do.




-

[Jack]

I also get a scum distancing feel from Albert and Glork.

Don't you just love gut based accusations

[Jack]

Shteven/Jack: If you could quote exactly which posts/lines you find off-base and

why

you don't like them, then perhaps I could actually respond to your inklings.

Why are you so eager to?

[Jack]

Shteven/Jack: If you could quote exactly which posts/lines you find off-base and

why

you don't like them, then perhaps I could actually respond to your inklings.

Why are you so eager to?

Because I often see bogus wagons spring up this way. Two or three players get "feelings" or "vibes." Somebody else (a scumbag) decides to "agree."

No one is voting you. I would call this overdefensive.

[Jack]

But if Albert thought they were "two of the best," that would certainly give him incentive to kill one of them.

This is exactly what you were attacking MBL for.

Vote:Glork

[Jack]

But if Albert thought they were "two of the best," that would certainly give him incentive to kill one of them.

This is exactly what you were attacking MBL for.

Vote:Glork

No. I was attacking MBL for calling the SV kill "odd."
...and I kept it there for his refusing to explain why he thought it was odd.

No.

MBL seems to want to begin the often-fruitless process of "nightkill choice speculation." The only ones among us who could have any legitimate insight into the scums' kills would be the scums themselves. MBL is experienced enough to know by now that talking about N1 kills (especially in a night-start game) is rarely (if ever) useful.

You said alberts comment was interesting, since he said they were two of the best, and implied that he might have killed them as scum for that reason. This is clearly nightkill choice speculation.

Don't paint my primary reason for voting Albert as being his early-game comments. It is a known that lamentation (or celebration) over night-deaths is a common scumtell, and that is what I was getting at. Either way my main reason for voting for Albert is his bandwagony nature. Do

not

strawman me, Jack.

I'm not. I think your nightkill speculation given earlier comments is fake and scummy.

EBWODP: In fact, note, Jack, that I didn't even call it scummy what Albert did. I called it INTERESTING. That part of the paragraph was more my thinking aloud as to whether Albert's initial comments were significant -- whether he was trying to be the "good little townie" by being sad about the "good scumhunters" who died.

You said it was interesting and then voted him. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together, and the implication is clear there.

[Jack]

Fudged the quotes on that last:

But if Albert thought they were "two of the best," that would certainly give him incentive to kill one of them.

This is exactly what you were attacking MBL for.

Vote:Glork

No. I was attacking MBL for calling the SV kill "odd."
...and I kept it there for his refusing to explain why he thought it was odd.

No.

MBL seems to want to begin the often-fruitless process of "nightkill choice speculation." The only ones among us who could have any legitimate insight into the scums' kills would be the scums themselves. MBL is experienced enough to know by now that talking about N1 kills (especially in a night-start game) is rarely (if ever) useful.

You said alberts comment was interesting, since he said they were two of the best, and implied that he might have killed them as scum for that reason. This is clearly nightkill choice speculation.

Don't paint my primary reason for voting Albert as being his early-game comments. It is a known that lamentation (or celebration) over night-deaths is a common scumtell, and that is what I was getting at. Either way my main reason for voting for Albert is his bandwagony nature. Do

not

strawman me, Jack.

I'm not. I think your nightkill speculation given earlier comments is fake and scummy.

EBWODP: In fact, note, Jack, that I didn't even call it scummy what Albert did. I called it INTERESTING. That part of the paragraph was more my thinking aloud as to whether Albert's initial comments were significant -- whether he was trying to be the "good little townie" by being sad about the "good scumhunters" who died.

You said it was interesting and then voted him. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together, and the implication is clear there.[/quote]

[Jack]

So was it interesting or was it scummy? Last post you emphasized that you hadn't said it was scummy only interesting, now you say you pointed it out because it's a scum tell. But if it's a scum tell then it would have been scummy. You're backtracking.

@Billy: the rest of glork's case doesn't concern me. I said nothing about it.

[Jack]

actually I misread on that part, you did say it was a scum tell before saying it was interesting. I'm still finding you scummy but I'm lacking anything concrete so

unvote

[Jack]

It's better to get lynched than claim vanilla. FYI.

This comment seems to assume the accused is town.

FOS: TCS

BS.

Unvote, vote MBL

What?

Even if you disagree his comment makes sense. For mafia it is clearly not better to get lynched than claim vanilla, So that comment indicates townieness. I disagree with MBL because you could still make that comment while being unsure of Albert's aligment, making the comment on the off chance he was town for example.

Your vote is poor.

[Jack]

Or he could have thought,

if

Albert B is a townie he shouldn't claim it.

[Jack]

Vote:Guardian[/b last post is quite scummy.

[Jack]

and that sounds like scum who is upset someone found him scummy.

[Jack]

I also find this post by shteven to be scummy.

I like to keep my notes in the game thread itself btw.

[Jack]

That's a weird conversation.

[Jack]

I must have heard that a thousand times over on this site, jack.

A thousand times? I find this highly unlikely.

LYNCH ALL LIARS!!!11

[Jack]

That's a weird conversation.

You didnt respond to my post about you

I am a walrus

[Jack]

That's a weird conversation.

You didnt respond to my post about you

I am a walrus

This is not the time to be immature, Innocent pepole are being killed. Respond. Its not like you cant respond to it.

That was a response. You didn't say the response had to make sense.


But really, like I said before, I like to make ingame notes. It's more open than private notes so why do you mind? You can just ignore them.

When I see something concrete I'll go for it.

Also, beanbagboy, why are you discussion who might be masons? Do you also want to discuss who might be cop?

[Jack]

But really, like I said before, I like to make ingame notes. It's more open than private notes so why do you mind? You can just ignore them.

First, you only barely mentioned this.

Second, You just dont go around Lurking for a day, then posting a "I think that last post was suspicous." Especially, when you dont say why. If you're going to accuse pepole of doing somehting, tell them what they did wrong, and why they received your suspicion. If you dont tell us, how can we agree with you/Disagree with you? Just tell us, its not a problem. If you think someone is going to suspect you because you contribute to the town, stop thinking that. We want to know everything. It looks more suspicous if you barely contribute good content. Also, dont kid around. As I afore mentioned, Innocent pepole are dying. This not the time for pepole to laugh, Which means you need to stop cracking jokes at everyone. I dont mean for you to be extremely serious, you can be somewhat lightheartyed yes, but dont goof off. So until you start making good and or strong posts, and stop goofing off,

Vote: Jack

Uh, no. Innocent people are not dying. This is what we call a g-a-m-e. I'll say whatever I want. What is the purpose of persuing me? I told you if I had something to say I would say it. You can't really explain gut feelings. You're just wasting space.

[Jack]

vote: Shteven

He is clearly seeding an attack on me with his "albert always plays scummy" comment. I don't like it, it sounded like a set-up.

No he isn't. If albert is always scummy then scummy play by you here indicates nothing. This looks like a poor excuse to bandwagon.

[Jack]

The mods would like to welcome

AutumnEvenings

to the game, replacing Haut Boy as of this post.

Sweet! AE is fun to play with.

[Jack]

unvote,Vote:~n9V~

[Jack]

I was scum with ~N9V~ once. Don't want to let him lurk.

[Jack]

unvote.



Vote:shteven

More later. He sounds very appeasing and seems to be putting himself where he can vote for any of the top vote getters.

[Jack]

AE, with 10 to lynch there will be lots of bandwagoning. A 7 vote bandwagon is the equivilant of 2-vote random wagon in a newbie game.

Glork is seeming less scummy.

I have my doubts about albert,shteven,and guardian. I don't quite remember why at the moment. I also want to look at yogurt.

[Jack]

Vote:YogurtBandit

I really don't see what the hell you are getting at with your pbpa and I think it's an attempt to appear like a helpful townie while dumping suspicion on someone.

[Jack]

It's also written in a really really really really scummy way.

[Jack]

Why would you pick someone randomly?

What do your "hmmm"s mean?

Why are you role fishing?

[Jack]

Jack: What are your thoughts on Guardian at this point? (Oh, preview edit: I didn't realize that posts had been made since my last post, and Jack clearly said that he has doubts but doesn't remember why. Jack, I'd still like you to look back and *try* to explain your feelings as best as you can.)

I'd like to wait a bit before doing a reread to cut down on the number I have to do.

Using the search, I found his 12th post scummy (would have to reread to see why, thing is was oppurtunistic or keeping his options open) and his reply to my vote

really

sounds like scum upset at being found scummy.

Jack, I am completely clueless as to why, but ok. I try and post almost every time I read a game thread... those were my only thoughts at the time.

He expresses a feeling a lot like what I feel when I"m scum and someone votes me. "I was just giving my thoughts...where did I go wrong?" kind of thing.

[Jack]

I think TCS is just being deliberately scummy, it seems like something he'd do. Doesn't mean he isn't actually scum.

AE seems a little insincere compared with last game. Like she's trying to copy her style but isn't quite succesful. Will wait and see on this one.

You're welcome. Why am I picking random pepole from pbpa's? Well, Because I can. I dont see a problem of randomly doing it. I knew it needed a re-read of the thread, so I figured, why not start pbpa'ing? Besides, its not like its a crime.

I pbpa'ed TCS because I have a vote on him so i could explain my vote

. MBL was randomly chosen. My top 3? TCS, number 1, if you read my Pbpa. Its a lot of scattered names for 2 and 3, Like Shteven, Bm, Albert ETC. But, Right now, my vote is on TCS.

So your reread and pbpa had no chance of changing your mind on TCS, you had already decided you were going to vote him?

Scum like to do things "for no particular reason, just randomly" because then they don't have to provide any justification.

[Jack]

The thing is Yogurt, pbpa's are what you use when you want to convince other people that someone is scum (I was thinking it was odd that you would do a pbpa on someone you already were voting but it isn't really). But you should only try and convince people that someone is scum if

you

are convinced that they are scum, and I can't see how you can be convinced that TCS is scum. I also think your pbpa's don't have real substance and are intended to distract the town and make you look protown.

[Jack]

unvote

I want to check on other people and I'm confusing myself with this pbpa thing.

[Jack]

Okay, im doing a post by Post Analysis of Random pepoles. First, Who I have my vote on, TCS.

I did a pbpa on TCS to show why I thought he was scum and to show others of his scummy posts.

New Pbpa, This time on MBL( No specific reason, just picking randomly

Mbl I did because while it apppeared his posts were scummy, they really were not if you dug deeper into what MBL was trying to say, it was really town.

Right, leaving out my bias against pbpa's, this is clearly backtracking

Vote:yogurtBandit

. I'm still not sure

exactly

what it is about your pbpa's that makes them so scummy. Maybe someone else can help me put my finger on that.

[Jack]

Last time I saw TCS do that it was as scum in the Clue mafia games. But it also seems like something he'd do as town and I also find the people attacking him to be far scummier.

Guardian, what do you think about YB's backtracking?

[Jack]

I just look at the list and say " Oh, maybe I should do a pbpa on Him/her" and then start writing about them. Jack, If you could explain what makes it soo scummy, that would be really nice, because quite frankly, I do not.

You said it was random, and then you said it was for a specific reason, and now you are saying it was random again. You are changing your story under scrutiny.

[Jack]

The point of acting scummy as townie is to make your next games as mafia easier. TCS got lynched as scum twice with this behavior, I think it's possible he is trying to set a precedent, so I don't regard his behavior as indicating anything about his alignment.

[Jack]

Albert is scummy, but I would prefer a yogurt or guardian lynch.

[Jack]

Jack: As I pointed out in my re-read, after YB was connected to Guardian by other players, Guardian made a very clear and distinct defense of YB in stating that he found YB to be pro-town. Do you think that Guardian would knowingly and intentionally do this at that point in time if both of them were scum?

They don't have to be scum together.

I haven't reread, but I don't see why he couldn't do it as scum. Rather wifom.

[Jack]

I'm with Glork on this. I was scum in hell on earth (similar size/players) and it was wicked easy to semi-lurk and let the town lynch the bad townies. On that note I'm going to check and see who's lurking, then get to that reread which I think I need now.

[Jack]

I don't think HackerHuck is posting enough. johhan needs to post more. BT had an excuse, said he would post wednesday, hasn't. ~n9v~ def lurking, I might remember him lurking as town, he needs to post more.

[Jack]

@tcs: I just want them to post more. HH and BT probably will without any wagon if we just ask them too. Don't know about the others.

@yogurt: how many times have you confirmed vote TCS so far? Seriously.

I forgot about shteven.

unvote

pending reread.

[Jack]

We really need a vote count on albert. AE you counted?

[Jack]

ok cool albert and guardian tied at 4. I had the impression albert was at 8.

[Jack]

I think he's viewing it from alberts perspective. Albert said "why would

I

".

I suppose your point is that only glork-scum would forget about figuring out albert as scum?

[Jack]

haha, this thread is on fire. I've never seen people get beaten on posts before on mafiascum, marathon day excepted.

[Jack]

edit by way of post

[Jack]

FoS: Anyone that tries to implicate Glork is scum for that post

Seconded.

unvote,Vote:MBL

fos:johhan

[Jack]

Anyone who is tired can make a typo like that.

[Jack]

@johhan: what about the reaction was suspicious?

@mbl: what did you learn from making mountains?

[Jack]

He did that for a while in hell on earth. But I got a pretty strong scum vibe from him in that game and I don't have anything like that yet.

[Jack]

I don't see billy as scummy.

[Jack]

So, you believe him because you think he's pro-town, without being able to explain why, and because of that you think it's scummy AE dosn't believe him? Isn't that kind of a circular argument?

Yos I really don't see what you are getting at. I assume people are town all the time as town, and speak from that perspective. In this game even scum don't know for sure who is town. You seem to be pushing a really bad case on albert here.

[Jack]

But mafia can't assume someone is town either. And I said I assumed people are town as town. Don't you?

[Jack]

unvote,Vote:johhan

[Jack]

I don't see the HH/ABR connection.

HH sounded like he wanted to lynch me instead of vouching for keeping me alive.

Unvote, vote: Shteven

Why did you vote Shteven?

[Jack]

I think I can take billy's summary in place of my reread and

unvote, vote:yogurtBandit

[Jack]

Now that AM mafia is over, I can say I"m much less suspicious of Guardian.

[Jack]

I'm not finding shteven so bad either.

Can't decide if albert is playing weird or scum. Yogurt will keep my vote.

[Jack]

I really get the feeling that Guardian's bandwagon is becoming the common Day 1 lynch that happens in most games and doesn't result in dead scum, because it's the naturally scummy person who did a few outrageous things that everyone jumped on. I really feel bad about his wagon.

I agree

I think we can consider YB confirmed town... no scum would really be this pigheaded.

wifom

[Jack]

I really don't think guardian is the play.

[Jack]

'Course, I'd still rather be lynching Shteven. Any takers?

That's because your scum with guardian and yb obviously

[Jack]

YB seems to have given up on the game. Where are his pbpa's now? If he actually cared to help the town he would be posting.

Glork, how is the shteven case stronger than the YB case?

[Jack]

Actually, Sarc already is. Razz

Stoofeh!

umm, Is LML looking for a replacment for Plessiez? AE even said Plessiez cant play the game due to RL issues.

Welcome Xyzzy!

This is what you post now. Where are your pbpa's?

[Jack]

Let's just lynch YB.

[Jack]

Let's just lynch YB.

That was 3 days apart from your last post, and you barely say anything.

Lurking!!!

I didn't post in any game over the weekend. I usually get drunk on the weekends...

[Jack]

I should, but I probably don't need to so I won't.

[Jack]

He's right. He really doesn't need to.

But there isnt any thing wrong with change.

Really? When Russia had a revolution and changed into a Communist nation, there was nothing wrong with that? What are you, a

Communist

?

That's just one more reason to vote for YB.

[Jack]

Seriously.

*post 1111*

[Jack]

We need time to find an alternative if your claim convinces us not to lynch you.

Claim now.

[Jack]

He seems consistent with his scum play to me.

[Jack]

Jack, have you ever played with YB?

yes

[Jack]

I find this experiment rather scummy.

[Jack]

Why would I tell you why?

[Jack]

I don't think the case on albert is convincing. Will leave my vote on YB.

[Jack]

Two consecutive posts from Jack two weeks ago:

I really don't think guardian is the play.

That's because your scum with guardian and yb obviously

...

Jack has also played as if he's stuck with the false dilemma of choosing between Albert and YB over the past two weeks. No insight on any other player--Jack is either very lazy or is scum.

mFOS: Jack

That's a misquote, you left out the smiley. I was poking fun at something glork said about how someone must be scum with someone and then did the same thing himself, I don't remember the details.

I've never had any intention of moving my vote from yb, I've said why I won't move to albert because he's the other biggest wagon and an explanation is necessary.

I'm not that lazy, but the thread is 1300 posts and I'm a busy dude.

[Jack]

Jack, nice to see you're watching--

What are you implying?

I'm not interested in anyone other than YB. I'm not going to post a list like alberts and I'm not going to reread so this is what you've got.

[Jack]

Jack, I'm implying that in your last 15 posts you've just repeated over and over again "Yogurt is scummy Yogurt is scummy" and it's an entirely 2-dimensional analysis of the game. You're obviously popping your head in to read other people's remarks on the situation, but you're not interested in commenting on anyone else's words, only Yogurt's.

This is true, but I don't see how what you said implied this at all. If I've been doing this for pages then there was no reason for you to note it now, and why would you say it's "nice"?

[Jack]

Ok, that makes some sense. It's also worth noting, though, that MOS was attacking Albert and YB yesterday while DEFENDING you in a wierd way, Guardian, saying you were the "easy" lynch but not a good lynch.

I don't think we can assume MoS would be so obvious. I would put more money on YB being scum than guardian based on MoS's actions.

I think it's a mistake to base our suspicions on what MoS did.

[Jack]

BM, your comment hinted at you being cop, because that's the only person who could technically know if guardian was scum. Don't hint at being cop.

[Jack]

I don't find guardian scummy.

[Jack]

I think I could be up for a Guardian lynch today.

Having re-examined inHim last night, I no longer believe that he is likely to be scum. I think I was just getting a bit to OMGUSy over his attacks on me. I still don't particularly like them, but I can kindasorta see where he was coming from. I've already put TCS in pretty much the exact same boat.

I should also note that MoS and Shteven supported each other (and Shteven never commented on MoS until I asked him to do so specifically). MoS attacked MBL earlier on rather shoddy reasoning, which at this point in time does not feel like distancing to me. I'm reasonably sure that I'm okay with a Shteven lynch still. I haven't read any other interactions between MoS and any other players.

This post smells scummy

Why are you up for a guardian lynch and what specifically turned you away from inhim?

[Jack]

ok, so, not to be hypocritical, that post smelled scummy because I think the guardian wagon is a bit oppurtunistic and the "I reread over the night and no longer find X scummy" is a thing scum do after distancing the previous day.

[Jack]

Also glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. hmm?

[Jack]

You protecting Guardian? I find it hard to belive you think glork is scummy because Hed be okay with a Guardian lynch.

I am and I don't.

[Jack]

"
That Billytwilight can honestly think I'm scum at this point makes me question his judgment about everything else. "

All he said was he didn't like one of your posts.

[Jack]

"
That Billytwilight can honestly think I'm scum at this point makes me question his judgment about everything else. "

All he said was he didn't like one of your posts.

I'm sure he'd mention his discomfort because of my overwhelming townie-ness.

false dichotomy...

[Jack]

I find it rather absurd that you're taking one player's opinion and using it as law to meta me. For the record, the player who said that about me was Zindaras.


Jack, let me ask you this: Do you honestly believe that any single player can "reek of pro-town"

every time

that they are pro-town, and that they

never

"reek of pro-town" when they are scum?

I'm just pushing you.

I'm thinking I should revert to guardian. The case against him is stronger, and if guardian is scum, then it's a black mark which we can use to get Glork next. He was my favorite target for the majority of day one, which I mentioned several times. I wish I had been more determined to see him lynched. Hindsight is 20/20, they say.

The case for Guardian:

He was consistently trying to hop wagons to find one that stuck. Starting on page 9 he placed the third vote on BM. Trying to build a wagon that started to get traction? He also did some considerable jumping afterwards. In total, he's voted for Glork, MBL, BM, N9V, BM, Shteven, TCS, Albert, Shteven, BM, Shteven, Yogurt, BM, inHimshallibe. Repeated wavering, and eager to jump around. The first one was a joke, but afterwards they all appeared serious, or at least as serious as he has been.

MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM. I put some stock into this. Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind. Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.

I'll pick up the case on glork for day 3, I think. That is, if Guardian turns out to be scum. I've become undecided on Glork for now; I think his alignment will probably match Guardian's.

Unvote. Vote: Guardian

vote:shteven]

I find this post very scummy for lynch -2 on a bad wagon. I believe guardians claim.

[Jack]

That should be

Vote;shteven

and 'quite scummy'.

[Jack]

[quote]unvote
vote: Glork - you've made a lot of mistakes, regardless of intent[/b]

What do you mean by "regardless of intent"?

[Jack]

You did...don't you remember?

[Jack]

Guardian, why claim to be a doctor? It makes the job useless and makes you an obvious mafia hit. But youre mafia, so die scum

no...

[Jack]

Im not liking Glorks Metagame defense of himself. Then agaion, Im just not a MG person.

I'm also not really big of Meta game defenses. I know I'm not about to re-read other games, and I'm sure that most other player's won't either. You get to claim a point that no one will bother to verify, and so it just stands unchallenged.

It was a metagame attack. Why didn't you ask for people to vouch for inHim's claim that Glork doesn't make as many mistakes when he's town?

[Jack]

Im not liking Glorks Metagame defense of himself. Then agaion, Im just not a MG person.

I'm also not really big of Meta game defenses. I know I'm not about to re-read other games, and I'm sure that most other player's won't either. You get to claim a point that no one will bother to verify, and so it just stands unchallenged.

It was a metagame attack. Why didn't you ask for people to vouch for inHim's claim that Glork doesn't make as many mistakes when he's town?

Hmmm... I'm trying to determine whether you're skewing this or not. Yeah,

FOS: Jack

.

I never specifically said that because it was Glork that was making a lot of mistakes made him scum. I think the act of making mistakes - these do not include my scumlist v. player x's scumlist, my votes v. player x's votes, etc. - is scummy, regardless of person.

The specifics of your claim are not important to my post...I also don't understand what you are talking about. If making mistakes is scummy then surely Glork makes more mistakes as scum then as town by your logic?

[Jack]

I really don't see the case on Glork. The only suspicious thing is in his 65'th post and I don't see anyone mentioning that.

[Jack]

By the way, this has been on my mind and is bugging me -- I wonder if inHim is defending Shteven not because they are buddies, but because inHim *knows* that Shteven is town.

I wonder how you can possibly be such obvious scum.

What was scummy about that?

[Jack]

inHim is probably my number 2 suspect after shteven.

Don't really know what to think of YB anymore.

[Jack]

I assumed he had the names mixed up.

[Jack]

Game needs more lynching of Shteven

MBL, YB, Yos2: why aren't you voting?

[Jack]

why wouldn't you suspect someone at this point in the game?

[Jack]

Why has activiity dropped so much?

[Jack]

inHim is really suspect

[Jack]

The hoop called lynching shteven

[Jack]

smells like distancing

(inhims posts not AE's)

[Jack]

I'm thinking I should revert to guardian. The case against him is stronger, and if guardian is scum, then it's a black mark which we can use to get Glork next. He was my favorite target for the majority of day one, which I mentioned several times. I wish I had been more determined to see him lynched. Hindsight is 20/20, they say.

The case for Guardian:

He was consistently trying to hop wagons to find one that stuck. Starting on page 9 he placed the third vote on BM. Trying to build a wagon that started to get traction? He also did some considerable jumping afterwards. In total, he's voted for Glork, MBL, BM, N9V, BM, Shteven, TCS, Albert, Shteven, BM, Shteven, Yogurt, BM, inHimshallibe. Repeated wavering, and eager to jump around. The first one was a joke, but afterwards they all appeared serious, or at least as serious as he has been.

MoS's "save" of guardian has already been mentioned. This one falls to whether or not you think MoS would be that straightforward; if not, it's sadly WIFOM. I put some stock into this. Securing a mislynch for any day is worth the risk, in my mind. Perhaps not as much day 1, though, as lynches are likely to fail already; but all it takes is ~2 non-mafia lynches early on and the game is solidly in the mafia's camp. Night kills can still interfere, if you get lucky as we have.

I'll pick up the case on glork for day 3, I think. That is, if Guardian turns out to be scum. I've become undecided on Glork for now; I think his alignment will probably match Guardian's.

Unvote. Vote: Guardian

Did people not read this post?

[Jack]

I'm-not-glork fos: shteven pattern

What the hell does this mean?

Glork, do you have any response to my post 1709? You know, the one with about 5 examples of me having already answered the question that you recently asked me?

That post looks like something scum would come up with because they can't find something actually suspicious.

[Jack]

I do not negotiate with terrorists.

Your avoidance of simple questions and baseless name calling is noted.

Your continued reaching to find any excuse to vote me is noted.

qft

[Jack]

unvote,vote:inhim

[Jack]

^^you say that a lot

[Jack]

I could lynch yb, shteven, or inhim.

yb I lost a little interest in since he seemed so persistant even though it looked bad for him. He keeps seeing every side of arguments though.

[Jack]

If I may play a little as MBL - SK, kill Guardian, k? 'cause, I don't see any way that Guardian is SK.

Whoa. Time out. When I said "the SK is probably going to end up killing Guardian," both AE and you flew off the handle at me. And yet now you're directly telling the SK to kill Guardian.


What the fuck, inHim?

You've got to be kidding me. That's your explanation?

"Guardian will probably be killed by the SK" means I'm scum, but "Hay SK, get rid of the Doc" doesn't mean you're scum?

First off, yeah, that's my explanation.

To be considered for the third party: here goes "Glork for the greater good" again. The tone of those particular posts = so scummy.

I'd also go as far to say that protection of Guardian is detrimental to Town. His alignment absolutely has to be confirmed, and the sooner the better. It will help solve many riddles.

This set of posts is why I changed my vote to inhim over shteven. Sounds like scum not wanting to backtrack.

[Jack]

Don't really think anything of manaspryte, nothing has stood out to me.

Why the vote for sarcastro?

[Jack]

fos:tcs

lay is still scummy and your anger seems fake.

This game, I would imagine, is progressing almost ideally for the scums right now.

What? I really don't think it is. One scum is dead and we have a couple suspects who have a high chance of being scum.

mini-fos:glork

[Jack]

MBL, HackerHuck,Yos2, Manaspryte and sarcastro haven't been posting nearly enough all day.

Inhim should post more considering he is one of the main suspects.

This game seems a bit stuck.

I would vote for Inhim or Shteven, with preference to Inhim.

[Jack]

...I don't know, they haven't been posting enough.

I don't think mbl is scum, he posted enough yesterday.

[Jack]

deadline is soon?

I'll pick yb over sarcastro.

unvote,vote:yb

[Jack]

unvote,vote:inhim

We still have 5 days. Do you guys really prefer sarcastro to inhim?

[Jack]

unvote,vote:yb

travelling next couple days.

[Jack]

Billy's been on vacation.

Yogurt bandit lynch > sarcastro lynch

[Jack]

hmm with the vote so close and there being so little case on sarcastro I can't see why scum would vote him over yb. Unless they though they could clear themselves by lynching him. So maybe it's not so clear, I'd have to look at it on an individual basis.

glork, if yos2 was scum why wouldn't he have voted yb?

[Jack]

Sweet, mafia no-killed, or, much more likely imo, we had a successful doc protection .

If MrBuddyLee (my protection) wasn't NK targeted, I bet there is some other doc out there who protected me and that's why I live -- after me placing the lynching vote on scum at the end of the day yesterday, maybe the scum realized that it finally was no longer feasible to continue trying to lynch a claimed doctor.

It does look like there is another doctor because I don't think that MBL was really a mafia target. I honestly think that you just say you doc proctected MBL just to stay in the role. You knew that he wasn't gonna get killed by mafia. And a quick vote on shteven was a little premature considering he was the main person who started the Sarcastro wagon.

vote:manaspryte

This post is really weird. You have in the past expressed willingness to lynch guardian, and the tone of this post is the same. Yet you claim there is

"another"

doctor. And why would guardian pick mbl because he knew that "he wasn't going to get killed by mafia" when it's obvious that mbl wasn't killed last night?

[Jack]

I find it reasonable to believe either scenario. Regardless of who was successfully protected, I find it highly unlikely that MBL is a member of the Mafia.

I was reviewing people not on the Sarc wagon, and HH fit the profile of somebody I'd like to look at. Yos2 and Billy did, too. Surprisingly, I don't think Shteven is a member of the Mafia right now. Given how devastating losing a second member by the end of D2 would be, I believe that both other Mafiates were off of the Sarcastro-lynch.

Well let's see where we're going with this...

6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

Almost all of the listed were under some sort of fire in D2 including myself. Even though Jack hasn't had much against him, I feel as if he's flying under the radar and feel like he's someone to look into a little more deeply. HH has been lurking a lot also, but I feel as more people notice him then Jack. Inhim flip-flops more then John Kerry. He jumps on any bandwagon when available. TCS gets really emotional with his game. I don't know if its a tell or not, this isn't poker Billy I'm not really sure about. He's very low key and maybe runs a little too much under the radar . What does everyone else think?

translation "if we are going to lynch someone on yogurts wagon let it be anyone but me?"

[Jack]

Guardian hammered sarcastro when he didn't have to.

[Jack]

I find it reasonable to believe either scenario. Regardless of who was successfully protected, I find it highly unlikely that MBL is a member of the Mafia.

I was reviewing people not on the Sarc wagon, and HH fit the profile of somebody I'd like to look at. Yos2 and Billy did, too. Surprisingly, I don't think Shteven is a member of the Mafia right now. Given how devastating losing a second member by the end of D2 would be, I believe that both other Mafiates were off of the Sarcastro-lynch.

Well let's see where we're going with this...

6 votes for Yogurt Bandit (HackerHuck, ManaSpryte, InHim, BillyTwilight, Jack, TCS)

Almost all of the listed were under some sort of fire in D2 including myself. Even though Jack hasn't had much against him, I feel as if he's flying under the radar and feel like he's someone to look into a little more deeply. HH has been lurking a lot also, but I feel as more people notice him then Jack. Inhim flip-flops more then John Kerry. He jumps on any bandwagon when available. TCS gets really emotional with his game. I don't know if its a tell or not, this isn't poker Billy I'm not really sure about. He's very low key and maybe runs a little too much under the radar . What does everyone else think?

translation "if we are going to lynch someone on yogurts wagon let it be anyone but me?"

Would you rather me say "Man, We should really lynch Mana"? That makes sense.

Which of those people you mentioned do you suspect the most and why?

[Jack]

Whoah. I don't have much time for this gamebut I've been reading it and that was surprising. I think we can accept that mana=doctor, guardian=townie, and glork=not mafia.

I really don't think guardian would have claimed townie as scum. Also, I think lml's pop quiz question about number of doctors in the setup might hint at guardian having lied about it.

Also remember, guardian hammered sarcastro, and doctor is a terrible claim for sk as it will draw the mafia nightkill.

[Jack]

unvote,vote:yos2

are you seriously pulling the lal?

[Jack]

Er, wtf. I somehow missed the second half of your post. Doesn't make the flip-flop any less disconcerting.

Heh...yeah. I just have a really hard time believing that a townie would claim doc under pressure. I don't think I've ever actually seen that happen, it would be an absolutly and obveously horrible terrible move, and it just seems much, much more likely that Guardian being a lying scum of some type.

The point I made a little while ago was that the SK claiming doc would be a bad more for an SK to make, but as far as bad moves go, it's not even in the same UNIVERSE as townie claiming doc would be, heh.

I've claimed cop as townie before. I don't think it is a terrible play--with the setup, he wouldn't be counterclaimed.

You'd have to be really stupid to claim doc as sk though.

I'm going to

unvote,vote:HH

as he's one of my suspects too and I'm interested what he has to say about that post yos quoted.

[Jack]

It's worth noting that battle mage has been know to lurk as scum.

[Jack]

If you'd prefer TCS why don't you vote tcs? We aren't deciding the lynch now for goodness sake, it's been taking us ~1.5 months per day so far.

[Jack]

Um, I've never heard of an SK who was night kill immune but wasn't told so by the mod ROLE PM'S IN FIRST POST sheesh

the yos explanation is fishy

[Jack]

I won't personally push for Guardian's vote, but I will vote for him if that seems to be the way this day goes.

?

Why the hell would he pretend to be drunk and why would it be a scum tell and why do you think he's pretending and what do you think he's lying about right in the drunk posts and does anyone else get the impression that kinetic planned his most recent post when he posted 2071?

[Jack]

>.>
<.<

I left my laptop on on my bed and mafiascum was open. Just disregard those posts. I live in my fraternity house and last night was a Thursday night. ie, part of the weekend. I really don't like how Kinetic is trying to twist that into being a scum-tell.

And of course I wasn't drunk, that would be illegal.

ok, WTF

2nd paragraph may have been facetious, but the first part where he's claiming that one of his frat brothers made the posts? There's no way his frat brother would talk about bm lurking.

big fos:guardian

[Jack]

Does anyone think that Kinetic and Guardian be the final two scum? It seems like Kinetic defends Guardian all too much..

He put him at lynch -2 last page???

I'd bet at least scum is among hh-kinetic-guardian. Quite possibly 2.

[Jack]

Jack -- I made the posts -- I usually wouldn't post drunk, but it occurred to me that it would be funny to do so since I left my laptop on my bed and mscum was open. I in no way meant to imply that someone else made the post.

You said "I left my laptop on my bed and mafiascum was open". What else is that supposed to mean?

[Jack]

That makes more sense. I went back and reread and saw manasprytes bit about him never posting while drunk. I though your post was in response to kinetic.

I'll

unfos:guardian

and while I'm at it I'll

unfos:yos2

. While I was convinced guardian was lying about above scenario I thought a bit. There are two possibilities. One, he's teamscum with yb. Personally I don't buy this as I think it would have been smarter to hammer yb. Two, he's sk. Townie claim wouldn't have stopped the lynch, cop claim has a possible counterclaim, with a doc claim he's safe until another doc turns up dead/claims. He can even hope for protection from a living doc, or hope the mafia will not kill him for wifom reasons. I don't know if this scenario is that likely but I can understand someone suspecting him. Personally, I think it more likely he would have stuck with the doc claim and hoped on the 50% chance that there wasn't another doc rather than reveal his lie before getting counterclaimed by another doc.

[Jack]

I think we'll need a better explanation for the breadcrumbing guardian. When did you decide to breadcrum? And why did you breadcrumb COP?

@BM -- is that a cop claim? Because then you are definitely lying scum.

[Jack]

I think we'll need a better explanation for the breadcrumbing guardian. When did you decide to breadcrum? And why did you breadcrumb COP?

@BM -- is that a cop claim? Because then you are definitely lying scum.

More later, then. I didn't breadcrum cop. BM highly hinted he was cop with a guilty on me -- in that case he would be lying scum.

Right. You lose context when you use the sort function.

You could easily have nightkilled those defending you to make yourself look better.

@kinetic: mind pointing me to the places guardian breadcrumbed? I did a quick scan but don't have time for a full read.

[Jack]

For reference:

WTF inHim? What if I were to claim a power role.... Like I'm going to....

I repeat that inHim is extremely suspect for not giving me space to claim, and BM is suspect for not wanting to give me space to claim.



Well this is just great.....

I am a doctor. Glork n0, BillyTwilight n1.

I left plenty of breadcrumbs for this, if that will convince you.

Please unvote now before scum quick hammer...

Gah!

I made it very obvious I was doc with "

d

istrict

o

f

c

olumbia" "santiago

d

e

o

c

ompestella" and countless other things.

I said early day one that I surely would have targeted Glork n0 if I was SK -- I did target him, but not as SK. I said at the beginning of day 2 "I, like BillyTwilight" I protected him n1.

Also, I was sure I wouldn't be mislynched yesterday because I'm a doc, I had a few "confident" like posts, and that was why . Then again, I was sure I wouldn't be mislynched today, too, and here I am at -1 with two... players pushing for a hammer.

I'm thinking Guardian is scum.

[Jack]

guardian. If sk fakeclaims doc, and there are two docs in the setup, once one of them claims then the other will claim. Then you would have been basically screwed. You might have gotten away with claiming townie if it hadn't been for your doc breadcrumbs.

ManaSprytes play was not terrible. If you were both doctors it would have been a while before mafia could take a shot at you (you can protect eachother). Also not he claimed because he did not believe you, and he was right.

[Jack]

Jesus christ there's no point to this

unvote,vote:guardian

Should be a lynch.

[Jack]

unvote

[Jack]

unvote,vote:guardian

[Jack]

...

hh died yos

[Jack]

As for massclaim: clearly we have no doctor. At most one cop, and his innocent results are nearly useless at this point. I don't think we want to make any masons claim, ideally we want them to stay alive as long as possible. Obviously no vigilante.

With no doc, any power role claims will get killed, and scum will just claim townie. There's a small chance of scum trying to claim a role and getting countered, and I suppose it helps prevent fake claims in the future, but all in all I don't think it's a good idea.

[Jack]

@Billy: odd request since I haven't seen any sum ups from you. Don't see the point of one either really. I would say day one was a normal day one, day 2 the sarcastro lynch came out of nowhere. Day three guardian got lynched while outing the real doctor. I don't really think about the game like that, I think of it in terms of individual players.

[Jack]

That kind of "missed who got killed thing" always smells to high heaven. It seems so obvious though.

[Jack]

It's a double disadvantage really. Not only are they possibly killing off power roles, they

aren't

killing each other.

[Jack]

@glork: did you think massclaim was a good idea? Why did you ask about it?

[Jack]

Dude, if there was another doc in the game they would have protected manaspryte no question.

[Jack]

No surprises there. Although I thought you had a guilty on sarc.

[Jack]

Glork, could you explain your case on MBL? I haven't seen any scummy posts from him, the only think scummy thing is his lurking but that's not a huge tell. This is the same thing I thought about sarc, so do you have some meta game thing from playing with him before?

[Jack]

ok. I'm not a fan of the "sv is odd kill choice" type tells (could easily be applied to yos today etc but I'm sure I've seen townies do that kind of thing in the past). I also thought his talk about the sk/congratulating was too wifom to be meaningful. In conjunction with the MoS kill though, it's more suspicious, looks like mbl thought that he'd given a clue to his being the sk with that mini-fos post and wanted to counteract that. Nightkills make sense, meta is interesting

vote:MrBuddyLee

other scummies

shteven: I initially found him really scummy, but I thought he would change some of that behavior that people were criticizing if he was scum. He hasn't, but I'm having doubts about this as a way of thinking. Needs other game read.

Kinetic: haven't forgotten bm's lurking. Needs more time for a read.

Billy: I found him very convincing scum in a game we finished recently. I think he's perfectly capable of creating large, reasoned arguments as scum, in fact it seems his playstyle. His pursuit of glork is I think a mark against him.

Inhim: suspect from earlier. hasn't been posting

Yogurt bandit: Hardly posting compared to previous. The day 2 lynch of sarcastro bears looking at again.

yos2: a little too quiet, a little too reserved.

TCS: scum or townie dicking around, seems how he likes to play.


looking at mbl, shteven, and billy right now.

Will reread as I have time.

[Jack]

MBL's first few posts after getting back were horribly scummy. Kinetic is seeming wicked scummy too. Will try to get some reading in this weekend.

[Jack]

unvote

I think I may prefer a kinetic lynch. Will check it out.

[Jack]

I don't like this Kinetic wagon. MBL is obviously trying to wrangle a lynch on an apparently weak player. I'm not sure what BT is up to, but his play is shoddy at best as town.

If Kinetic is lynched as town today, I would look

VERY HARD

at the people who have put pressure on him already.


MBL is still the SK, and eliminating him eliminates a nightkill upcoming.

MBL, if Kinetic is lynched as town, you should probably be hitting scum tonight. On the off-chance that you

don't

get lynched tomorrow, you'd already want only one scumbag alive. If tomorrow is 7 players with 2 Mafia and just you... Bad Sign. You need to even the odds before endgame approaches.
I figure you already know this, but I want to make it explicit.

Isn't the SK basically a vig at this point? Wouldn't lynching mafia and having the SK kill mafia or the mafia kill the SK be ideal? If we can find and lynch mafia we should.

As for Kinetic being bumbling, someone should read one of his other games and compare. I don't see what makes you say that though. Bumbling is scummy.

[Jack]

MBL, why do you keep trying to insist that your scumhunting record makes you innocent? You're the one who said the sk should try and kill scum.

Have InHim and YB been prodded?

Glork, I'm not sure preventing a kill is that advantageous. HH dying was good for the town, and any crosskills would be extra bonus. Although you may be right, if we don't lynch the goon then the mafia will probably still kill you, and mbl as sk wouldn't necassarily want to eliminate the mafia just yet (he'd probably be lynched). I'll shutup till I reread.

[Jack]

Kinetic, mind posting the rest of your notes?

[Jack]

I have a couple questions for kinetic after rereading his posts.

0-1 Cop Glork? Would explain why he thinks there are not many power roles left.

.....

12. Glork
I have a strong feeling he might be one of the remaining team scum
No.. He's a power role. Seems possible he's the cop.
Not a mason
Proof he might be the cop below

.....

Having re-examined inHim last night, I no longer believe that he is likely to be scum. I think I was just getting a bit to OMGUSy over his attacks on me. I still don't particularly like them, but I can kindasorta see where he was coming from. I've already put TCS in pretty much the exact same boat.

Glork is the cop!? Inhim is innocent/N2 Target.

Also glork, someone in the general discussion thread said that when you are pro-town you "reek of pro-town". You don't reek of pro-town this game. hmm?

Do you need me to start linking games where people found me scummy but I was town?

I find it rather absurd that you're taking one player's opinion and using it as law to meta me. For the record, the player who said that about me was Zindaras.
1) Zindaras and I have been playing mafia together since before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I can say with the utmost confidence that there is no other player who can get more out of my posts to get a good read on me.
2) What one player (in this case, Zindaras) believes to be pro-town is not always what another player believes to be pro-town. This statement is proven by simple observation. If everybody thought that the same things were pro-town, all of the townies would agree on every lynch. The fact that there's so much debate in each and every mafia game, even amongst protown players, is testament to the fact that no two players find the same things pro-town or scummy.
**Case in point: My assessment of Albert's play in this very game. He alleged that shameless bandwagoning was a good way of hunting scum. I told him that he was going about it all wrong, that it takes a specific eye for reactions to bandwagons to make such tactics effective, and that even then it's a very dangerous game to play.
**Further case in point: The debate regarding BM's alleged "always scumminess." Some argue that BM is responsible for his actions in each game, regardless of what the meta towards him is. BM asserted that instead of just saying "oh, he's being scummy again, let's vote him" players should be looking at what makes him scum this time around as to the scummy town that he "usually" is.

I grow tired of this charade.

Either Glork or Jack is mafiascum. Explains the immediate Zindy kill. Jack didn't want Zindy confirming Glork or Glork didn't want Zindy outing him.

This is your supposed journal entry. I say supposed because it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE AT ALL. How on earth can you make this into "Jack didn't want Zindy confirming Glork"? These two posts were in the public thread, anyone could have read that Zindy knew Glork. Also, any of the players who have been around for a while could know that. And oh, let's see, there's also the fact that this post was on DAY 2, AFTER the zindy kill. This really looks like you were just making shit up.

vote:Kinetic

2nd question.

Well I'm right now at the beginning/middle of Day 2 in my reading, before the Guardian lynch/claim really takes off, and I'm mighty suspicious of TCS. I'm going to Vote:TCS at this time.

I agree on a lot of your ideas about TCS Hacker, he keeps coming back as generally scummy in my book as well.

TCS: Continually in the wrong place at the wrong time. Between him and BT, both are very close in my book, but I prefer TCS for the reasons stated above and because I'm slightly less suspicious of BT.

My vote stays on TCS. I still have about 10 more pages of rereading to go, but I've been jumping back and forth and doing some targeted rereads. I'm fairly confident TCS is part of the mafia.

The way I feel about it, I feel strong enough to push for TCS at this time and I'll vote for HH if the lynch gets moving.

I don't exactly know how well I believe Guardian right now, but I felt strongly he might be the SK well before his secondary claim, and his latest claim hasn't exactly inspired confidence in me.

I won't personally push for Guardian's vote, but I will vote for him if that seems to be the way this day goes.

*side note: kinetic is willing to lynch whoever is most popular*

Meh... At this point I'd much prefer us going after TCS... that being said both HH and Guardian are high on my list...

Vote:HH

That should put them both at -3.

Unvote, Vote:Guardian

I don't like fake drunk Guardian. He's worse at lying when he is pretending to be drunk then when he is trying to be serious.

Vote:TCS

Your inactivity up until now, coupled with my previous points on Day 3 still stand.

5. The Central Scrutinizer (TCS) - Innocent Cop Result
...
So yea, as I see it, going after the innocent cop results at this time is just a waste in time. For all we know the godfather isn't even among them.

The last quote is very interesting when you look at the previous quotes on TCS. Care to explain?

[Jack]

If Kinetic is lynched as town today, I would look

VERY HARD

at the people who have put pressure on him already.


MBL is still the SK, and eliminating him eliminates a nightkill upcoming.

Surely scum want to lynch the sk? Why distrust them for pushing kinetic?

[Jack]

I explained that in my vote for you. Glork's accusation is convincing, and pointed out several things I hadn't noticed about your posts before. I was wrong about sarcastro too.

[Jack]

Jack: No, I'm not going to post all of my notes. They're mine. I posted those ones just because it seemed perfectly consistent with what I thought at the time and would be helpful in noticing.

The reason I thought in my notes that one of you was scum was because it seemed very odd to me that Zindy was killed so quickly. We know he was watching the game because he posted in the game in a joke with YB. So it was of my opinion that someone didn't want Zindy coming into the game so quickly with the knowledge he might have. To me that looked really bad for Glork. I also remembered that exchange you had with Glork and decided to keep it in my notes to look at again if needed. To me that gave you a reason to want Zindy dead quick too.

If you're mafia and Zindy can claim (with a lot of certainty) whether Glork was scum or not, that would hurt you. And don't act like

anyone

would have immeditely made that connection. Glork had to correct you in this game that the comments made in that thread pretty much only applied to Zindy. As I see it, that looks scummy for you.

Jesus, are you serious? You're blatantly ignoring the fact that the statement "the mafia don't want zindy confirming glork" in no way points to me being mafia. And you are also ignoring the fact that we had that conversation

after

zindy had been killed.

Your other explanation doesn't match up that closely to what you said in the game.

[Jack]

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that I want to hear YOUR cases against me, not Glork's cases, because the latter is the blind leading the blind. He simply does not have an effective read on me no matter how much he pretends to. And yet Kinetic and Jack cite Glork's lame and ineffective metagame on me as the reason behind their votes. Original arguments and analysis, please.

No not really:

ok. I'm not a fan of the "sv is odd kill choice" type tells (could easily be applied to yos today etc but I'm sure I've seen townies do that kind of thing in the past). I also thought his talk about the sk/congratulating was too wifom to be meaningful.

In conjunction with the MoS kill though, it's more suspicious, looks like mbl thought that he'd given a clue to his being the sk with that mini-fos post and wanted to counteract that.

Nightkills make sense, meta is interesting vote:MrBuddyLee

Point: just because someone was wrong about you doesn't mean their meta attack is incorrect. In any case, I wasn't convinced that you were scum by the examples posted, just that your play didn't mean you were town. The sentence beginning "in conjunction" was my main reason for voting you. I get the feeling you were sorry you'd posted that you were suspicious of MoS when you killed him, and worried people would finger you based on that. Your posting dropped significantly after that (92 posts day 1, 13 until today). Your posts talking about the sk feel like you are trying to distance yourself from the role in this light. I can see you making the kills you did and glorks opinion that this is how you playstyle as scum doesn't help you.

[Jack]

btw, I'm not voting you. Kinetic is clearly the better play.

Glork, I don't see how you can call fabricating in game notes (and refusing to post the rest, lol) "bumbling".

[Jack]

His notes are absurdly fake and he refused to post the rest.

[Jack]

If you thought sarc was more likely scum you'd push him over yb as sk. You've been defending yourself with this crappy kind of logic all day.

[Jack]

I agree with Glork. While I find Kinetic scummy the wagon on him looks like nothing more than bald opportunism.

Can you explain why you think kinetic is scummy and why you think the wagon on him is oppurtunistic?

[Jack]

I think the argument about "you were wrong in the past" " no that's a misrepresentation blah" is really not on topic and unimportant. There haven't been enough games to draw conclusions from, peoples ability to read other people improves over time, etc. MBL, you can't claim that glork

can't

think you are scum when you are scum. The avenue of defense you've chosen sidesteps other accusations.

[Jack]

In other words, MBL is avoiding the important issues and going off on side-tangents in an attempt to obfuscate the case on him. Ergo, MBL is scummy. Ergo, he is probably scum.

Precisely.

[Jack]

Clearly. Also, there's a good chance of the mafia killing mbl tonight.

[Jack]

If you thought sarc was more likely scum you'd push him over yb as sk. You've been defending yourself with this crappy kind of logic all day.

Jack, did you bother to read my post? I asked SPECIFICALLY in relation to me as mafia, ignoring the possibility of SK. A few of you think there's a significant chance that I'm actually Mafia, which I see as way off-base and a borderline braindead opinion. Not once have I said that my scumhunting genius precludes me being SK, so you can take your accusations of craplogic and stuff them.

This is what I meant by sidestepping. Why on earth would I care about how likely you are to be mafia? I've been accusing you of being sk as you note in your latest post. This is irrelevant. For what it's worth, we don't know yb's alignment (I think there's a good chance he's scum) so you have no proof of you being non-mafia.

[Jack]

I think the argument about "you were wrong in the past" " no that's a misrepresentation blah" is really not on topic and unimportant. There haven't been enough games to draw conclusions from, peoples ability to read other people improves over time, etc. MBL, you can't claim that glork

can't

think you are scum when you are scum. The avenue of defense you've chosen sidesteps other accusations.

In other words, MBL is avoiding the important issues and going off on side-tangents in an attempt to obfuscate the case on him. Ergo, MBL is scummy. Ergo, he is probably scum.

Precisely.

I think an ad hominem is appropriate here considering the absurdity of your stances here. You guys are retarded.

Glork has cooked up one of the shittiest metagames I've ever seen, in which he tries to convince you guys that he's this swami at reading MBL and that when I'm 3rd or 4th vote on scum D3/D4/D5 that I'm most likely busing a scumpartner.

Being a very good townie, I know that more often than not, when I'm alive D3/D4/D5 I'm voting scum and staying off mislynches of innocent townies. Which is precisely Glork's metagame that has him and 2-3 of you believing I'm scum in this game.

I defend myself by saying 1) the metagame is retarded and 2) Glork's ability to read me is utter shit, and you try to tell me that this defense is not on topic and unimportant? That I'm avoiding other accusations? I'll go back and see if there are any legitimate accusations that have been ignored, but for the most part, TCS, Jack and Kinetic sheeped onto Glork's idiotwagon of me specifically because of Glork's metagame in relation to Moses and Face to Face. Me calling Glork an incompetent metagamer is DIRECTLY relevant and in response to the wagon that was on me.

I'd like to say I'll laugh at Glork for sucking if I get lynched, but truth is I won't. I'll be pissed if that happens because it'll mean I wasn't good enough of a mafia player to convince you lot not to follow an inaccurate bloviator.

I didn't sheep onto the wagon because of the metagame, and glork didn't vote you entirely based on metagame. You are misrepresenting us, and taking an easy to defend position (since I don't think any of us are going to go and read all the games you've been in with glork). Defending yourself against the metagame is fine, but you were ignoring the rest.

[Jack]

Moving on, you say the nightkills make sense if I am the SK. I agree, if I was the SK, I would have strongly considered killing at least a few of those people. MoS for scumminess, Autumn for being on my tail, and Huck for being significantly scummy.

Good.

Considering that I've been vocal all game about SKishness, doesn't it also make sense that the actual SK might decide to pin some kills on me? I mean, they're almost too good a fit for the "MBL is SK" story. You can respond, "sure MBL, that's great WIFOM" but seriously, an SK can't afford to attract that kind of suspicion AT ALL or they will DIE at the hands of scum or a lynch. So yeah, sure, you can try to convince yourself that I'm the highest profile SK ever in a 25 person game, and I can try to convince you that's WAY too much risk for any sane SK to try and endure. They have to survive about 12-13 killshots, and I'll tell you, putting their head on the block like I have is NOT the way to survive 12-13 killshots. You say that my posts talking about an SK feel like distancing. Thank you for accusing me of being the sloppiest SK self-distancer ever, I appreciate the compliment.

sure, MBL, that's great wifom. Seriously man, saying you know it's wifom doesn't help. But the thing that's important from here is your mentioning that the SK must keep a low profile. This is what I think you were trying to do. You mentioned suspicion on MoS: you thought he was scum. You nightkilled him; he was scum. Now you worry that the mafia will have noticed you and think you are sk. So you do the sk distancing. You claim it's sloppy, but I don't think it is sloppy. You use the wifom argument before, why ignore it now?

You say the first few posts I made after getting back were horribly scummy. I wouldn't take tremendous issue with that, because I essentially raced to get back in the game and contribute something. I passed along some gut feelings and some genuine angry reactions to Glork's insulting metagame of my play. Take them for what they're worth.

Good.

Finally, your last few chunks of argument nod sagely in agreement with Glork's observations without going into any detail about which points you agree with and which you don't. That's weaksauce and will allow you to point the finger lamely at Glork on the offchance I go down in flames as a townie:

One, I'm pushing for someone elses lynch. Two, as you've just gotten done quoting all my posts that don't have anything to do with glorks metagame, this is clearly false.

1) After I post an upcoming detailed analysis of the Sarc vs YBwagon, I'd like you to assess how likely it is that I was scum busing Sarc.
2) I'd like you to explain why even though all players had access to my comments about MoS, that I was the most likely person to kill him N1.
3) Please clarify what tapdancing I did re: my mFOS of MoS.
4) I'd like you to dissect Glork's argument about me being scum and state which points you agree with and which you don't.
5) Do you see my attacks on MoS as busing AT ALL?

1) Irrelevant, as I said before
2) It's possible others would. Your comments day 2 are what make the link as I've said.
3) Don't know what you mean by tapdancing, but I explained what I think about the mfos.
4) I've stated my argument.
5) irrelevant again

[Jack]

@Kinetic: imo you have a 50% chance of being the goon. If we lynch you as goon, then glork is no threat. I think the gf would worry about the kill and kill mbl, and it's possible that mbl would kill the gf. This situation is advantageous to us. If your the gf then they'll kill glork of course, that's why I said "good chance".

Will you post the rest of your notes?

[Jack]

This isn't a key issue, I just think it's a mathematical advantage.

scenario 1: lynch mbl sk: 8 alive tomorrow, 2 scum. lynch kinetic, 6 alive, 1 scum. Two lynches left.

scenario 2: lynch kinetic-gf: 7 alive tomorrow. glork dead, small chance gf dead. lynch mbl, 5 alive, 1 scum. 2 lynches left.

scenario 3: lynch kinetic-goon: 7 alive tomorrow, maybe mbl-sk dead, maybe gf dead. lynch mbl, 5 alive, 1 scum. 2 lynches left.

The extra person doesn't matter because 4 alive is still lylo. In the latter two situations there is a chance for crosskills.

[Jack]

@Kinetic: imo you have a 50% chance of being the goon. If we lynch you as goon, then glork is no threat. I think the gf would worry about the kill and kill mbl, and it's possible that mbl would kill the gf. This situation is advantageous to us. If your the gf then they'll kill glork of course, that's why I said "good chance".

Will you post the rest of your notes?

Bleh, I really don't want to >> I haven't updated them at all since the beginning of this day, and honestly they were only a reference so that I could keep all the people in this game apart in my head so I didn't confuse them with either other games or with each other. (During my re-read I kept interchanging your posts and BT's posts near the beginning, ugh).

Not to mention I don't normally take notes... for anything. School, class, etc. I'm really bad at taking them. I've already been made fun of once because of them in this game, and I really don't like that. If you MUST see them, bleh, I'll post them. But do you really need to?

Yes I must.

[Jack]

mbl, all the arguments I've made have pointed to you as sk. It's

obvious

I think your sk and not mafia. It's also obvious that you'd rather defend yourself from claims that your teamscum then that your sk. That's sidestepping, and I'm not going to let you do that.

[Jack]

I have ~3 books to read by monday for an exam. Will post afters.

[Jack]

For various reasons (some out of my control) I am leaving mafiascum. I'm sorry to make you find a replacement in a 101 page game lml.

[Jack]

Jesus christ you guys take a long time to finish a game.

I was planning on killing YB the next night. After that it was either yos or BT because I planned on going after the others in thread. I wonder if I would have made it. Probably would have gone crazy and confessed what with the length of these later days.

[Jack]

Jesus christ you guys take a long time to finish a game.

I was planning on killing YB the next night. After that it was either yos or BT because I planned on going after the others in thread. I wonder if I would have made it. Probably would have gone crazy and confessed what with the length of these later days.

Good to see you Jack! You back on site or just commenting on the endgame?

Just commenting...don't have the time to play. Which is actually a good thing lol.