Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[AutumnEvenings]

Well Glork, then here's a test: close your eyes and tell me what MBL thinks about five random players (not counting yourself). If you can do it, I'm impressed.

And yes, I noticed your two "fights" with BM, one of which was all about his playstyle. That's all well and good, but you didn't comment at all on him doing somethng which caused you to FoS (and then vote) another player. The exact same thing. I don't like it.

--------
Anyway, I'm going to

vote: BeanBagBoy

. I didn't like (30), absolutely hated (55) (that's the one where he said "any nightkill is a good nightkill"), and aside from that, he's donw an awful lot of parroting (see, e.g. 70 and 205). His (259) was also weird--he thinks Guardian is scummy but that Guardian's defense of YogurtBandit was valid but was very non-commital on YB himself. He's also done way too much role spec (masons in 259 and cop in 290) which is just

bad

. He also weakens a lot of his posts with "it's no biggie" or "they're acting scummy but they're always scummy so maybe" and the like. And that's pretty much all he's added to the game.

I find him way more suspicious than Albert. *shrug*
----------

Re: BattleMage

--I find his play extremely frustrating. I really didn't like how he said he wouldn't wagon Albert to save himmself and then later went ahead and jumped on YogurtBandit to save himself. BM--why did you think it wasn't good to vote Albert to save yourself but was perfectly "logical" to vote YB to save yourself? I really don't know what to make of you. I don't want to get into playstyle discussion (that lasts pages and is fruitless anyway), but I'm keeping a very, very close eye on you, and wouldn't object to lynching you today.

Anyway, I don't find his bandwagon suspicious or think that it in any way indicates that he's pro-town, in large part because I agreed with everyone's reasons for voting him. Getting 6 votes for acting scummy is just fine by me.

---------------

Shteven

--are you aware that the only person you've voted all game is Albert? And that you placed that vote (which was the 6th vote on his early game wagon) in post 60 and said:

I just laughed when I saw point #3, so I'm tossing out a mostly random vote to help him out:

Vote: Albert

? And that aside from Albert, all you've done up until this page is voice a minor suspicion (based on gut feeling) of Glork and discuss game theory?

FoS: Shteven

.

HungryJoe

--if you think this game is boring (as per post 182), why don't you try spicing it up? Make a case. The best post you made was when you were accused (by Glork). I can see you're absent till tomorrow, but maybe this will help?

FoS: Hungry Joe

.

Guardian

is another player who's driving me insane. After making his first post (voting Glork for not catching all 5 scum already), he then twice followed Glork's vote (onto MBL and then BM), which I thought was really odd. I didn't like post 170--people who say there's nothing to comment on aren't helping things at all. And there's the weird switching all over the place on YougurtBandit in the space of like 5 posts, none of which featured any new posts by YB. Can't read you, don't like it.

YogurtBandit

also falls into the "gah!!!" category. His stance on BM also drives me nuts. It goes from "not enough evidence" to voting BM to "BM seems pro-town" (99) to FoSing BM, and then he jumps on Albert (6th vote, second wagon). And the page 12 conversation with Jack felt very weird and possibly staged. And I really disliked post 261--what a non-commital way of raising the issue of N9V's lurking. And to get meta--I'm kind of confused. You have a very recent join date but tons of posts and seem to be playing in zillions of games. Are you new? Anyway, he's also another one of those non-commital followers.

FoS: YogurtBandit

--------------
And that's kind of all I've got. Disapointing, I know.

[AutumnEvenings]

(umm, I see I made a new page. The comment to Shteven should then read "up until the last page")

[YogurtBandit]

AE- I am new to the site, But I have played Mafia before and when I joined the site I was familiar with Some stuff. Yeah, I am playing in alot of games, But I guess I just like the game so much that I dont want to be limited to 1 About Bm, At first I though it was werid in that 1 post, but I said I didnt feel it warranted a vote, and fosed him, then later Gave him a vote after him giving a scumtell. The Unvote I really cant remember why he seemed more Protwon, but he did say that(and others did too) That was his personality so I just laid off on it.(This is my first game with Bm,I am in others with him, but this was the first)

[Jack]

Vote:YogurtBandit

I really don't see what the hell you are getting at with your pbpa and I think it's an attempt to appear like a helpful townie while dumping suspicion on someone.

[Jack]

It's also written in a really really really really scummy way.

[YogurtBandit]

Vote:YogurtBandit

I really don't see what the hell you are getting at with your pbpa and I think it's an attempt to appear like a helpful townie while dumping suspicion on someone.

Well, I'd love to see you make a Pbpa. I commented on the good, the bad, and the scummy. If you dont like it, Ignore it( Thanks for tht last sentence, I got that from when you replied to my attack on you.)

[Glork]

Okay. If there are scum on Albert's initial wagon, it's Shteven and/or ~N9V~. The BM wagon makes me believe that he is pro-town. If scums were on his wagon, I'd be looking at HautBoy, HungryJoe, and YogurtBandit. TCS might be scum on the wagon, but I'm not as willing to say that he should be on that list... yet. I'm keen on a BeanBagBoy lynch, too. And actually, the fact that YB went onto BM then off of BM only a short handful of posts later make me think that he probably was *NOT* trying to drive a mislynch on BM. So put HB, HJ, and BBB as my list of most-likely-scum on the BM-wagon, based solely on position on the wagon. Guardian is iffy, too, based on his overall play.

Albert's following me is still irksome. Still, he has passed off wagoning as his preferred method of pressure. I hate that kind of play with the searing passion of a thousand suns, but as I have no prior meta towards Albert, I may be forced to accept it. Still, Albert, a word of advice: Scumhunting and voting based on YOUR OWN personal suspicions is 90% of the time better than wagoning because somebody else is applying pressure and you want to see something happen. If you ahd suspected HJ for your own reasons, supplied those reasons, and voted him with me, I would have been fine with it. But the fact that you played follow-the-Glork without knowing what the Glork was doing is badbadbadbad.

I can understand TCS's Post 123... I went through a similar phase of paranoia.

Whoa, Albert's 130 doesn't make sense. He says he's looking for a Johhan wagon based on inactivity and OMGUS. I asked him why he didn't just vote for Johhan as well, and this response makes me cringe. Your vote on Johhan was random and on Page 1, so when you say "I did," inactivity/OMGUS were

NOT

your reasons for voting him. Do you mind explaining this comment, Albert?

Still, I don't like YB's vote for Albert in 136 due to a critique of general playstyle. Come to think of it, YB's voting history -- other than his timely unvote for BM -- has pretty much sucked.

I like HungryJoe's responses to me. Either he's savvier than I had expected or he's less likely to be scum than the others.

Shteven:

WHY did you decide you wanted to keep your vote on Albert in Post 160?

Intereseting that HJ voices against Glork/Albert when A) Glork/Albert had voted him; and B) Jack had just expressed a Glork/Albert distancing "gut" feeling.

Massive FoS: Guardian

for Post 170. A heck of a lot has happened since your last post. Having nothing to comment on is often a lazyscum tell. "Hi, I'm actively lurking."

Vote: Guardian

for Post 176. Two more scumtells here: 1) A series of sweeping general comments which each go unsubstantiated; 2) A mass FoS for a seriously portrayed reason.

Beh. Still, Post 178 looks like Guardian is actually trying to do something. It also wipes out the "nothing to comment on" post he made earlier.

Unvote Guardian, FoS: Guardian

Albert's switch to Glork in 184 still makes me want to throw rocks at him if he is town, and lynch him twice over if he is scum. It's like he reads the post before him, looks for a vote, and joins along in the fun. (Hyperbole, obviously, but you should get my point.)

MBL:

what do you think of Guardian's Post 178?

Jack is obvprotown. Johhan's lurking like crap, but I would be wary to call him scum right now. I think I like post 208.

There is so much bad play in this game, it makes my head hurt. By the end of Page 10, I feel that YB, Guardian, and Albert are all either complete novices at this game, or they're playing really sloppy scum. I am certain that at least one of them is scum, but I honestly cannot decide who I want to lynch the most.

Is it just me, or does Post 262 look like all fluff/filler. Once again, he seems content just to let his vote sit there on Albert. Shtevenscum++; Albertscum--;

YB's attack on Jack in 288 is just terrible. A) Jack has not been lurking throughout D1; B) Jack has given some reasons for some of his suspicions -- see: Glork; C) Mentioning one's gut is not by any means automatically taboo -- I find nothing wrong with him saying "this post feels off." MBL has done the same thing, and TCS just stated that one of Shteven/Jack is scum and didn't explain why... I don't see you going after him for doing so. I would much more expect a pro-town player to ask Jack for reasons for what he does (much as I did earlier) and then critque those reasons (also what I did). Unsubstantiated claims, whether you like them or not, are a part of mafia. Forcing players to clarify their "gut" feelings, their seemingly-random statements, and their accusations and defenses -- that's how you find out what a player is really thinking and can discern their motives. You don't just say "you're scummy for taking notes in-thread and not explaining them in explicit detail." Like I said... bad, terrible vote. Mildly scummy, probably more indicative of newbiness, though.

...of course, two of my "Grr, these people are playing terribly" people -- Guardian and Albert -- jump onto Shteven right after I make a post about him and he makes a reply. This is getting ridiculous.

Yos's entry seems reasonably genuine, even if he is horribly misguided in his interpretation of my play.

YB is accused of distracting from a Guardianwagon. Immediately afterwards, Guardian openly defends YB. I almost feel like Guardian is deliberately trying to link himself closely to YB so that, if he's lynched, we'll go off in the wrong direction.

Yos hits on something in Post 364. Sounds like Guardian was (or still is) interested in making friends. Scumbags like to make friends. Man. GuardianScum probably doesn't look good for me, considering how adamantly I defended his joking earlier on. I'm still digging it, though.

Still don't like Shteven's top suspicions at all. Albert has become very "meh" to me on my re-read, but I am far from willing to commit to saying that he is scum. Battle Mage is very obviously pro-town.

Jack:

What are your thoughts on Guardian at this point? (Oh, preview edit: I didn't realize that posts had been made since my last post, and Jack clearly said that he has doubts but doesn't remember why. Jack, I'd still like you to look back and *try* to explain your feelings as best as you can.)

AE: This may be unfair, because I just finished reading the game, but here's a shot--
MBL doesn't like at least one of YB/Guardian, probably doesn't like BT, likes Jack's play so far, probably thinks BM is pro-town, and he would like to see N9V do something in the game.

I'm tentatively okay with AE's vote for BBB. I remember getting mixed feelings about him. I'd like to see BBB contribute to some solid scumhunting.



Pro-Town: MBL, Jack, BM, Glork, probably Yos.

I'm going to

Vote: Shteven, FoS: Guardian, YB (to a lesser degree), and Albert

.

There we go.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well Glork, then here's a test: close your eyes and tell me what MBL thinks about five random players (not counting yourself). If you can do it, I'm impressed.

That's a much more fairly expressed point, and causes me to assess you as townish. To be honest, I haven't drawn conclusions about many players so far, I'm more making observations that other people can build on. I've gotten a mildly townish vibe from Jack, mildly scummy vibes from Guardian, and conflicting vibes from HJ, YB, Glork, BM, beanbag, TCS and Albert. That's off the top of my head.

[MrBuddyLee]

I feel that YB, Guardian, and Albert are all either complete novices at this game, or they're playing really sloppy scum. I am

certain

(bold mine) that at least one of them is scum

Glork, does your dictionary have a different definition for

certain

than mine does? Cause use of that word on D1 gives me hives.

[Glork]

Nah, I'm okay with that statement. I'm sorry that you hate certainty in Mafia, but you know that it's pretty much how I roll.

I think that their scummy behavior overrides their status as newer players.

[YogurtBandit]

New Pbpa, This time on MBL( No specific reason, just picking randomly)

sv is an odd kill choice.

ps. Hi

This is the post that generated some suspicion. I don’t really see why it could be suspect, all thought it could be like scum speculating on the Nk, I don’t think its that important.

Guardian wrote:
Willing to join a Glork wagon ^_^.
If you're wrong Glork, you're public enemy #1

Glork is innocuously wrong, but clearly this is worse.

unvote, vote: Guardian

Vote on a joke.

Glork's hyper-protection of Guardian noted.

Guardian, my vote on you would be OMGUS if there wasn't a solid reason behind it. Solid, at least, for page 2.

Hmmmm

Mbl then lurked for 4 pages.

YogurtBandit wrote:
All the votes on the Vote Count are scattered.. I predict there will not be a lynch until page 15 and beyond..

Glork, What is an Inkling?

This is a scummy post.

I asked why, But I could not find an answer from MBL.

Albert and Guardian appear to be scum. I'm satisfied with finding two today.

sv was an odd kill because when she's town the town loses and when she's scum the town loses. Extrapolate from that as you will.

<3 Jack. Whether you're wagoning scumbuddies or playing well, I'm buying it so far.

First sentence is kind of odd. The Sv thing is Im guessing MetaGamed, but still Peculiar nonetheless. The last one seems like a note to Jack. They could be Masons...

BillyTwilight wrote:
MBL, what is it exactly about Guardian that you don't like? His original joking around with Glork?

Do you really not find anything suspicious about the totality of Guardian's posts? I'd like to hear your analysis before I elaborate.

Glork brings up essentially the same point I did, that sv isn't necessarily a logical kill, and then reasons that someone without a ton of sv knowledge aka Albert might have committed the kill. I don't have a problem with it. I presently think he was just making early-game hay when he chided me for doing the same thing.

BT parrotted two players in that post. Sketchy.

Hmmmmm.

Glork, I rarely interpret those slips as 100% indicative of alignment. But in the absence of anything else to go on, they're something, often they can tilt the scales between two players who both look scummy to me, and there's a lot to be learned from people's reactions to the observation. I don't think in black and white by any means, but that doesn't mean I won't push these things aggressively.

I'll think about if/when I've caught scum making slips in any games not still running. And I'm not trying to distract from anything--it's actually time for a reread to see who's not participating.

Hmmmm.


Well, I dont think MBL is scum at all. I dont think there are any signs of it.

[Jack]

Why would you pick someone randomly?

What do your "hmmm"s mean?

Why are you role fishing?

[Jack]

Jack: What are your thoughts on Guardian at this point? (Oh, preview edit: I didn't realize that posts had been made since my last post, and Jack clearly said that he has doubts but doesn't remember why. Jack, I'd still like you to look back and *try* to explain your feelings as best as you can.)

I'd like to wait a bit before doing a reread to cut down on the number I have to do.

Using the search, I found his 12th post scummy (would have to reread to see why, thing is was oppurtunistic or keeping his options open) and his reply to my vote

really

sounds like scum upset at being found scummy.

Jack, I am completely clueless as to why, but ok. I try and post almost every time I read a game thread... those were my only thoughts at the time.

He expresses a feeling a lot like what I feel when I"m scum and someone votes me. "I was just giving my thoughts...where did I go wrong?" kind of thing.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm sorry that you hate certainty in Mafia, but you know that it's pretty much how I roll.

I know. I don't hate your "certainty", it's just that I find myself having to maintain a Glorksaurus in my head so when you use one word I know it actually means something different.

[MrBuddyLee]

Plus, one of my idols once expressed similar concerns about certainty. Back in my first big game on scum:

(MBL,) your

certainty

in both lynches and suspicion-casting on their voters before the lynches/alignments were made public by the mod contribute to my uneasiness towards you.

Then again, he was scum, lol.

[Glork]

Fine. I should have said "fairly certain" or "somewhat sure." Happy?

[YogurtBandit]

I'm sorry that you hate certainty in Mafia, but you know that it's pretty much how I roll.

I know. I don't hate your "certainty", it's just that I find myself having to maintain a

Glorksaurus

in my head so when you use one word I know it actually means something different.

[AutumnEvenings]

Thanks Yogurt--knowing that you're not new makes me much more critical of you. Why are you picking "random" people for PBPA's? (Why are you doing those at all?) I'd like to know your top 2-3 suspects please.

*contemplates vote-switching*

MBL--sorry, that's what I meant by "content". Could be another "cultural difference" between here and where I usually post.

Jack--with all of those "really"s, could you maybe clarify a bit for me? I'm kind of biased, I admit--I don't like PBPAs because I think they tend to be useless--way too much quoting-of-every-post (which we can all read ourselves, thanks) and barely ever any significant analysis. But I'm not sure what makes Yogurt's so scummy.

Glork, who the hell is BT? Also, which "orders" are you looking at when deciding who the supposed scum are on these wagons? There was a fair amount of voting and unvoting going on. And I'm still really bothered by you thinking that just because BM got six votes in ~50 posts, that makes him town. He's very suspicious to my eyes. You do realize that we have 13 pro-town players, right? I don't see whay it's so hard to believe that fewer than half of us thought he was worth voting. Especially since you seem to think that 3 people--including me--are scum. Do you really think (if you're pro-town) only two people besides yourself happen to genuinely find his actions scummy?

[HungryJoe]

HungryJoe--if you think this game is boring (as per post 182), why don't you try spicing it up? Make a case. The best post you made was when you were accused (by Glork). I can see you're absent till tomorrow, but maybe this will help? FoS: Hungry Joe.

Thank you for some spice, AE. =) Sorry about my absences, I'll be getting on more often soon, hopefully. As it is, I have to admit to a couple of major flaws in the game I've been playing here.
1) regarding BM. To take a step back from this particular issue, it took me a bit to realize I really wasn't separating my games with BM in them. My suspicion/hate of his playstyle transferred over here quite fully and tainted my views. On re-reading his posts, I realized this, and was embarrassed of my previous posts that were trying to emphasize me *not* doing this.
Alas, I could not help but be irritated, if not pestered by it. Nonetheless, the vote on him wasn't that fair, and I think someone is a bit more suspicious right now anywho.
Therefore:

Unvote : Battle Mage

2) Regarding my 'boredom' : My miscommunication. I was trying to convey the sense that we were throwing about a lot of theories, but not a lot of gameplay, at least thats what it was feeling like to me. (credit goes to AE for this one, though.)

Lastly: Everyone is just ignoring the TCS vote dealio? It really does seem a bit suspicious to me. He advises others to jump on and have a great time on the Guardianwagon! Yee-hah! However, he does so, admittedly, without any evidence or backing to show for it. Just because. Gut is one thing, but not enough for a vote in my book, although a good enough reason to go looking for a small reason to vote. =)
But not having a reason at all, that just reads to me as scummy here, I guess.

[Glork]

BillyTwilight.

And it's not just the speed of the BM-wagon. He made a few posts that sounded very pro-town to me. I pointed out one of them, as indicated in my Post 116. And I don't think that three of you on his wagon are scum. I'm saying that the three of you are more likely to be wagoning scum than the other people who jumped BM. I'd say one, *possibly* two among those three that I listed are scum.

[HungryJoe]

Whoops! With all that talk of TCS, I forgot to do the following:

FoS : TCS

[AutumnEvenings]

Glork--oh, right. I call him "Billy" in my mind (not big on initials, it took me a long time to get comfortable with people calling me AE :p) so I couldn't figure out the T stuff. I don't get why the post you're pointing out (which was just him defending his playstyle some more) makes you think he's town either. But whatever, I guess we'll just have to disagree here.

HungryJoe--I'm ingoring for a few reaons, mainly (1) I'm pretty suspicious of Guardian anyway, and (2) it seems to be chic here at mafiascum to urge people to bandwagon. I can never tell how serious people are, so I tend to just ignore it. If someone wants to convince me, they can make I case.

I'd be suspicious if a wagon grew out of his non-reasoned urging, perhaps. But...eh. I've read (or skimmed) a bunch of games and seen that sort of stuff a lot, so it doesn't really affect my opinion of TCS (which is very nebulous as is).

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I like Jack's play so far. I've agreed with most things he's said, and he's been active and willing to take some risks, which is bascially the opposite of how he acted last time I saw him play when he was scum in MAD.

[Glork]

Hey Yos, you should put your vote somewhere useful. Like on a scumbag.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...I agreed with basically everything you said in post 406 , Glork, and that makes me feel a little bit better about you, but you're still on my list of suspects; I really got a bad gut feeling from a lot of your posts earlier in the game. I'll probably re-read your posts in isolation tommorow and see if I can explain it better.