Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[massive]

vote The Rufflig

Sheeping GreyICE

[massive]

*popcorn*

If nothing else, I'm excited now to see how divisive Wake88 is.

BBT

: Was there any chance that TTH was going to look at your "random" vote on page 1 and do anything other than assume it wasn't actually random? You seem surprised that she might be suspicious of you, and that she might out the neighborhood, but isn't RVSing her kinda asking for it?

[massive]

Mmmmmmm.... I like playing with Wake. Speaking of reputations...

I be a troll. People who have played with me before know this, so just a reminder:

Don't put person to L-1. I WILL MAKE IT HAMMA TIME!!!

Who said you were town, boon?

You said that you would play in such a way that you would behave detrimentally to the town. The only reason to consciously do this is a meta game effort to make your scum play indistinguishable from your town play.

Not only is this against the spirit of this site (play to win the game you are in), it's a detestable, pathetic maneuver. You wish to be unable to read? Fine, I grant you your wish, a place on my blacklist , and copious bullets to pump into your corpse.

Vig, kill this useless piece of smurf.

I forgot about Boonskiies's nonsense. 93 isn't "overanalyzing" despite what Boon says in 101; it's so much WIFOM I considered photoshopping his name on a box of Franzia. And on top of that, he actually stole that L-1 Autohammer from bjc in 1582 as a Playstyle Methodology? I say let's let the neighbors sort themselves out tomorrow.

vote Boonskiies

[massive]

Flubber

: Do you think there are circumstances where a townie should lie? If so, can you give some examples?

Wake88

: What is your experience with alt accounts? Also, if TTH is scum, who is her partner that has played with you before?

Dougal

: Do you have any scum reads?

[massive]

Flubber

: Do you think there are circumstances where a townie should lie? If so, can you give some examples?

With the exception of some 1337 gambits that I could pull from the wiki, next to none. But I don't see any strong scum motivation in AK's lie. Like, I'm going to claim right now I have a 13 inch penis. Do you think a wagon is going to form on me over it because of "lynch all liars"? It was anti-town to lie, but how is my lie going to forward scum? And that's ignoring the debate of whether or not he actually lied or not.

I think there's a far cry between you lying about your anatomy, and AK lying about his experience with game mechanics in response to a direct question. Without any followup, AK's claim would have cemented (at least for Dougal, who asked) the likelihood that one of {BBT, TelltaleHeart} are scum, and he would have proceeded through the game with that expectation. Do you still think that's on par with your junk?

[massive]

Question to those of you who are more recent additions to the site but have played more than a few games: How common is "neighbors," as a whole? I left in 2007 or so and it was not, as far as I can recall, even a named role at that time. I had to look it up the first time I encountered it. Is it common enough that a gambit could even be built around it? And, if so, doesn't that preclude the existence of an actual neighborhood, at least in a game this size?

[massive]

I'm not gonna lie, it's very likely that I just skipped numerous posts. I tend to get glazey-eyed when people start shouting at each other. This is the beauty of games on a BB -- all the information is there to go back and look at later. Wake's reaction to his pressure reads as genuine.

Wake

: Given the possible combinations of BBT and TelltaleHeart, which do you think is most likely? Better yet, give us percentages for both town / one scum / both scum.

Flubbernugget

: Do you have any constructive questions, or are you just here to jump on AK and BBT's "take potshots at Wake" bandwagon?

Csareo

: 351 says there are two conclusions but actually gives three. I assumed you had "AK is scum" as numero uno, but #2 says "most likely" -- can you clarify? And if #1 is most likely, can you explain why you haven't moved your vote to AK?

[massive]

Csareo

: What specifically did you like about the three cases presented by Doogal, Boonskiies, and "the wolf person" who I assume is Rufflig?

Doogal

: Would you have a problem if your top scum candidate was lynched?

[massive]

What's your read on GreyICE, massive?

Irritated that he disappeared after page 4. Probably needs a prod too. Only 9 posts so not a lot to go off of, but I can sympathize with his Boonskiies emotional outburst (been there done that) and I liked 106 as legitimate scumhunting. Not enough data, ultimately, though.

The only person you have to blame is yourself.
Instead of scum hunting and giving us reasons to think you're town, you continue to make scum tells, and you continue to defend yourself, abusing your vote power.

Could you give us two or three examples of the scum tells that BBT has made? You can just provide post numbers if you want.

As long as TTH gets lynched straight after me then go for it. Lynch me. If she is town, she deserves to be lynched for outing the neighbourhood, if she is scum, well, fantastic.

If you weren't being pushed right now, would you still support TelltaleHeart as (essentially) a policy lynch?

I'm not scum reading Csareo. :/

Are you scumreading anyone? Are you reading the game?

[massive]

massive, I'm looking at your ISO right now and your thoughts are extremely difficult to parse.

I see you're still voting Boonskiies. Could you please tell me why?

I am not a vote-mover. You can read some of my other games, I'm sure, and come away with the same conclusion. I'm also not big on sharing my thoughts, and I'm horrible at teamwork, but those (I THINK) is an artifact from being an older player with a long time away from the site, and changes to the overall way the game is played here. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it.

It strongly indicates (but not for certain) that the other player is of the opposite allignment. Something I became suspicious of, after they voted each other in the beginning.
We will also discover a lot about how this neighborhood works, something TTH ran from answering when asked.

I thought your theory was that we were both scum and fabricating the neighborhood conversation and that Anatole was trying to run interference to cover up the ruse. Now it's that we're actually a different alignment? Why is the story now changing?

Also, I'm not sure what questions about the neighborhood are outstanding. What are they?

You've been asked in two posts. Are you paying attention?

@TTH would you answer these two questions... 1. Is BBT your only neighbor? 2. Do you have day chat. Both of those questions are still outstanding.

She's probably not gonna answer your questions if you aren't answering hers.

[massive]

I am not a vote-mover. You can read some of my other games, I'm sure, and come away with the same conclusion. I'm also not big on sharing my thoughts, and I'm horrible at teamwork, but those (I THINK) is an artifact from being an older player with a long time away from the site, and changes to the overall way the game is played here. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it.

That's not really helping me read you, massive.

Anything else?

I'm not sure what else you want here. Maybe why I'm OK with not moving my vote? Immediately after my vote on him, Boon completely disappeared. At the time of your request, he hadn't done anything to make me move my vote, and his vote in 467 was pretty rubbish too. 476 has him casually mention the "double-scum-gambit" possibility which, really, people, can we all agree that's a little obtuse? Like this:

Granted, there's still the possibility of both of you being scum, which in case, it gives even more reason for you guys to try to stay away from a lynch.

makes no sense. If you're both scum, you practically WANT a lynch here, because (to most of us) it would auto-townie the other one. Pushing the double-scum-gambit as even a possibility here just keeps it in people's minds.

---

I like where The Rufflig is going.

[massive]

Not really. I actually like what Csareo has said about BBT, because I kind of feel the same way. BBT is flip flopping onto anyone who thinks he could be scum. There's been a few things I like from Csareo, and I'm town reading him for now because of it. Now I get to see my biggest scum read to one of my town reads go at it? Yeah, my vote's set unless some convincing evidence comes out.

But this isn't what Csareo said -- what Csareo said was that he was voting for whoever was voting him. See 466. And clearly you didn't read the vote analysis that Rufflig did in 478 so here, I will link it up for you. You later say:

BBT's votes are literally on everyone...he's trying to put focus on people other than himself, and he does go after anyone that thinks he is scummy, even if he doesn't put a vote up. I guess you could say he's reaction testing everyone, but eh, I don't like it.

So ... you think BBT is scummy for going after people he thinks are scummy?

And I don't usually say my scum reads until I plan on pursuing/interrogating them.

So now that you've said you find BBT scummy, do you think you'll plan on pursuing / interrogating him soon?

[massive]

I feel like there's something missing with Ruffling and massive. I don't know what to ask for, though.

It's very frustrating.

You just have to think of us as tall, handsome strangers that you meet by happenstance. What questions would you ask us then? Rufflig, do you like pina coladas? Long walks on the beach?

It would seem then that you don't have any problems developing your thoughts on the other players. Care to tell us what you think about the major candidates now? Boon, BBT, Csareo?

There is convincing evidence BBT and TTH are on the same team, but it is mostly speculative.

How is speculative evidence convincing to you?

[massive]

So ... we call this "confbias" in this game, and it's not actual evidence.

[massive]

The ignorance in this game is painful. I'm going to be a mislynch that he's just going to be able to shrug off as "Meh, Boon was trollin'. He seemed scummy."

Is your lynch an immediate concern? Seems a little early to get defensive when the main wagon is on BBT and there are two other people with the same number of votes as you.

[massive]

Respond to my case. Why the hell did you vote for me over an associative tell.
You seem certain my intention was to buddy with a townie, yet this only makes sense if...
1. Wake is proven town
2. Csareo is proven scum
3. Csareo's intention was to be apart of a town bloc

Let's say I'm suspicious of you -- so I already believe 2. Since I believe 2, I believe that YOU at least know that 1 is true also. How far of a leap is 3 at that point? You are presenting this as HARD FACTS but we never know anything as a HARD FACT, and I would expect that if you voted based only on HARD FACTS that you would not play much Mafia.

I think you scum slipped, and hard.

Who is this directed at?

[massive]

I would like him to claim now, rather than L-1.

[massive]

Well, THAT's not a whole post. One incoming.

[massive]

unvote

vote Csareo

There are a bunch of things here.

1.

I would like him to claim now, rather than L-1.

I'm not sure how you could forget that they were neighbors, considering you read and understood they were neighbors (294) and even continued to push the "they're both scum as neighbors" idea (also 294) and outlined a huge plan for why one or both are scum in 350.

2. The flip from TTH to BBT as the likely scum in the neighborhood. The conclusion of 350 is in 351 and has the "most likely" outcome as AK+TTH as scum together. Your next post, 380, has you flipping to BBT saying it's "best for you" and agreeing with Boon (whose case in 353 is bad and dependent on Wake being town), Doogal (whose two-line case in 375 is is based on BBT not looking for "actual scuminess" but doesn't give any examples of any), and Rufflig (who is actually more suspicious of Csareo's case on the neighbors, see 369).

3. The buddying of Wake, but really, the reaction to being called on it. It might have been a completely different story had you said, "yeah, I'm townreading Wake, I agree with this point," but you go straight into yelling at people for "bullshit associative tells" (hint: it's not associative since it doesn't rely on Wake's alignment) and claiming we'll lynch Wake if you flip town (607). Not only are you buddying him, but you're working extra hard to tie your alignment to his.

Oh, and

and I would expect that if you voted based only on HARD FACTS that you would not play much Mafia.

Did you hear what I said about speculation? All lynches are based on it, but there is a degree of supporting evidence that can back a theory.
A theory that has no supporting evidence or "reason" isn't a very wise theory.

Uh, it was YOU who was saying this only made sense if players were PROVEN (your word) one alignment or the other. See 621. I'm not the one whose refuting a scum case on them by using these words.

[massive]

Why have you been so inactive, massive? Should you be V/LA instead?

Starting here. I've made at least one in-game post every day since the game opened, with the exception of the weekend, when I generally stay away from computers since I sit in front of them all week for work. That should be easily confirmed in other games, if you want. What level of activity would you like from me in order to not have me list myself as VLA?

I didn't (and still don't) care for his vote on Boonskiies in 104. Him clarifying that bit would help.

Sure. Just finished Mini 1582 with him where we were all trolled by him regularly (I was SK and trying to legit scumhunt, and he made it impossible and was town) and Mini 1587 where he flaked out. Mini 1582 is where he picked up the immediate hammer troll after seeing bjc do it. If he's going to act like that, then I'm happy to get rid of him. And if you disagree that him speculating about an SK with no night kills in 93/101 isn't weird, then I got nothing for ya.

His note in 365 that my reaction to the pressure reads as genuine is, to me, a step in the right direction. Though, if he could break it down further and relay in specific detail exactly why he says so would help me in feeling out his alignment.

I would like to believe that no one would use their diseases as a method of avoiding scum detection.

How are you reading AK and Csareo at this very moment?

I assume these are all for me. I am voting for Csareo, you can see my points earlier today. I find AK surly but null beyond that currently.

I don't feel like TTH has really engaged with me at all. Are you familiar with her gameplay, or how she reacts under pressure?

I've never played a game with her, nor am I in the habit of reading up on my fellow players. I know she's Antihero's sister, but their game play is day and night.

Do you lurk/post infrequently as Scum?

I have one completed scum game since coming back, that's Mini 1587. You can feel free to infer your own read, if you want.

I feel as if you're holding back, lurking a bit, and joining convenient wagons. What is your current stance in this game? I'd like you to pick 3 or 4 players in this game, in order from first to last, on who you'd wagon and lynch to day and exactly why. Short paragraphs would be valuable.

This seems quite incorrect, at least the "joining convenient wagons" part. I voted for Boon early and this is my first vote move since then.

Csareo - I've said my piece.
Boon - provided here in this post, plus you can see more on this in 493.
Flubbernugget - his leaping to the defense of Csareo doesn't have any basis in this game, he's even picked up the "associative tells" part of the defense which I think we should have cleared up by now, and about half of his posts are unrelated to the game.

Is it true one reason you're voting for Csareo is because of the idea/questions around TTH and BBT being Neighbors? If memory serves—and I could be very wrong—he agrees with me that there is some doubt about their claim, especially with DP's rather odd response. Nothing is concrete on that facet of the game, but I do think the issue merits more inquiry and discussion, and certainly isn't as innocuous as others would have us believe it is. Am I not also Scummy because I have some reservations about it? If so, in your eyes, please do elaborate on that in full detail.

I don't think the conspiracy theory has any basis as consideration as a scum gambit, and I think any good mod would let you stew in the conspiracy theory you've created for yourself. What I find scummy is when people bring it back up when most of us have dismissed it, or when someone presses it as a viable idea. It's upping the noise level and forcing us to spend time discussing a very unlikely situation. In short, I think it's a smokescreen.

Who have you spoke of and/or engaged the least? Why? I am asking this ahead of time before I go ahead and point it out anyways in great detail.

In this game specifically : The two replacees, GreyICE, AK, and then probably Flubber and Dougal, who I asked questions of but who I haven't engaged in any back-and-forth.

[massive]

1582 was my very first game here on mafia scum, and I wasn't even trolling at that point. Noobtown? Definitely, but I wasn't trolling. And I made it impossible for you as a serial killer? Hmm, isn't that a good thing for me as town?

Nice try. You made it impossible for EVERYONE to scumhunt and you know that. Don't paint your actions in 1582 as anything other.

Also, I gave perfect reasoning to the SK possibility by a theory about a play GreyIce was trying to do in post 93. In post 101, I even bring up the fact that it was farfetch'd and that I was probably over-analyzing. Did you even read the post?

There's a wide difference between over-analyzing, and rampant wild speculation, which is what you did.

[massive]

Boon

: I don't know what you're linking to, but I was not in that game.

Everyone else

: My point on Csareo is not that he might believe that TTH/BBT are both scum, but that he continues to push it, which means it triggers Wake to start talking about it and then we all have to fight above the noise floor of it to do meaningful work. (538 is a good example of this, subtly pushing the "conspiracy theory", 712 will undoubtedly lead this way)

Considering we already had one fight over TTH's grammatical stylings, I can't imagine we're going down this path again.

[massive]

You'll need the time to fabricate a decent fakeclaim.

Is it a required part of being in this game that everyone has to forget BBT is a claimed neighbor at one point or another?

WAIT!!!!!

In the other game, BBT voted his scum partner right off the back. Seems as if he might have a tendency to do that...

Seriously, between you and Csareo, we are never going to escape this "fake neighborhood" nonsense. Please stop.

[massive]

@Wake88, that's what has me off also. Obviously you would have to acknowledge flubber contributed somewhat around that of massive, who has half of flubbers posts, yet massive, the one associating himself with BBT, is being town read by BBT?

This is ludicrous. The only way I'm "associating myself" with BBT is because we're both voting for you.

#1. BBT Flips Scum
- I'll be NK'd, to stop a tunnel on players participating on my wagon
- They'll leave me alive as they think I'll be easy to mislynch (and they would be right)
They'll either kill a townie or mafia member who was also on my wagon to clear the others of suspicion

Why on earth would scum kill scum? And, are you sure that they'll either kill you, leave you alone, or kill someone else?

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

You made your comment on why you think BBT is town, can you comment on the case on Csareo and why you townread him?

[massive]

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

You made your comment on why you think BBT is town, can you comment on the case on Csareo and why you townread him?

[massive]

For that reason I'm not particularly inclined to vote either of them because it's going to encourage a situation where we end up lynching both - like the theory about TTH and BBT advocated by Csareo.

This makes zero sense. You are effectively saying "Csareo had a bad idea, but it's not worth voting for him." And "Csareo and BBT's alignment is dependent on the other." Why do you believe that?

[massive]

We're just learning about it being in night now.
Somethings off.

Wake being obtuse about this nonsense, I guess I understand. You needling him and pushing him on, KNOXK IT OFF.

[massive]

Csareo, Boon: If both of you think scum are driving your wagon, who are they? Who's scum on the other person's wagon?

[massive]

sorry, Csareo, BBT even.

Just to continue my thought process from Boon above:

Green Crayons

, why are you town-reading Boon?

[massive]

But nobody on Csareo's wagon?

[massive]

Do you think someone could justify leaving one of our wagons to join the other after all this time? Because I don't.

So ... you don't really believe this?

[massive]

Don't I?

Don't go all Thor on me.

[massive]

What do you think I don't believe?

I saw 1199 but not 1200.

What's your read on massive?

It still remains scum

Is this why you won't answer my question? 1195

@massive - I don't understand why you keep assuming I have a wagon on me. There aren't any votes on me.

I was trying to decide if I thought I could push through a lynch on you. I decided it didn't merit muddying the waters around BBT/Csareo, and that I didn't think enough active players would agree with me. But you were in the front of my mind when I made my last post and so I put your name instead of BBT.

[massive]

I really believe that Csareo is a counterwagon to BBT and I would really like a flip to confirm this. Any of the Csareo/undecided crowd, are any of you willing to come over?

No. It's crap like this:

Is there yet to be a comprehensible case on me?

That makes my blood boil. Five votes, at least three of which who have given thorough reasons for voting him, and rather than discussing or even refuting them, he calls names, acts like a child, and tries to pretend like the cases make no sense. Well, surprise, Csareo, maybe

you

don't understand, but enough of us do to keep voting for you.

[massive]

I would if that would work. There is nothing to scum read him for besides lurking and disagreeing with me.

Another thing that drives me nuts about you, Csareo, is that you pick up anything someone says and just throw it out there unashamedly. Wake and the conspiracy theory, now this. TTH was the first "massive is lurking" person and I very clearly pointed out that I had posted every non-weekend day (and multiples on some days) and you have somehow picked it up and thrown it out there casually, I guess to hopefully keep people thinking "oh yeah, massive doesn't post nearly as much as other people!" HEADS UP: My posting schedule is non-alignment-indicative. You want to go after a lurker, you're better off finding an actual lurker.

Although, that wouldn't make you much better than BBT on that front, amirite?

[massive]

I don't really know.

I'm just think massive is scum.

Reasons being?

He's on the Csareo wagon.

Is everyone on the Csareo wagon scum? In that case, since there's five of us, you better lynch right or you lose right here.

And I think his questioning of you a while back was incredibly stilted and awkward, especially the one about "who's the scum on the other wagon." It just seemed pretty bizarre and not for any purpose other than to fill up space.

They both said scum were on their respective wagons. Here, I'll even make it easy for you and quote them.

Nah, I don't think I am. I'm pretty sure scum are on my wagon.

But let's get back to the suspicious stuff. Something is really off about this wagon. The people defending BBT have been committing every scum slip in the book (excluding ruffling).

Not curious who the scum might be on their wagons? I guess it is just filling up space, never mind that it was practically the only thing that got them both to give reads on the wagons.

I was also suspicious of him earlier for being on the periphery of the discussion. Interestingly enough, he reframed this as "lurking," which I never accused him of.

Nope, you're right. I misremembered, and it was Wake88 who was concerned with my "inactivity" (702). I guess you are just hopping on it as something suspicious now?

[massive]

@massive:

Did you ever state why you suspected Boon, back when you were looking around to see if anyone would join you on a push? If yes, please link. If no, please provide your case.

No, but will endeavor to post all my thoughts this morning. You can start with 493 and 705. I'll post up my thoughts on other people on the wagon too. Please hold as I have concalls scheduled every 2 hours this morning.

[massive]

Wow, did not expect you to be the first to cave.

[massive]

Yeah, but this really puts a dent in the sincerity of your convictions, doesn't it? How much of your vote for Csareo was "he's scum" and how much was self-preservation?

[massive]

I don't know, but if I was considering jumping off, I'd make sure I was jumping for a reason and not some nebulous "I'm OK with Flubber" blanket statement. Would you care to give your reasons for jumping onto Flubber?

[massive]

GreenCrayons

: In addition to the two posts I linked earlier which have my early thoughts, this is what I see from Boon up to my wanting to start a new train:

750 - Continuing to feed the "neighbors are both scum" conspiracy nonsense.
752 - His BBT vote is based solely on town-reading Csareo. That read is in 352 and is caused by one Csareo post.
831 - Backs Csareo's misunderstanding of English. Hard to imagine both of them miscomprehending that.
843 - Claims that BBT's scum case has many points, but doesn't enumerate them, or really seem to have deviated from "BBT is scum because Csareo is town" (since it also defends Csareo); also buddies nicely up to Jagged who has just arrived.
847 - Somehow becomes the main proponent for correctly understanding BBT, 16 posts later.

Add to that:

1235 - Continues to be the only person hunting an SK.

And this:

I have stated multiple reasons, and any competent person would understand why I'm voting BBT.

Talk to us like we're five and incompetent. Besides what I've mentioned above (the fact that you town-read Csareo) give us the ESPN Highlight Reel of why you are voting BBT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Boonskiies

[massive]

Oh, hey, Jagged, I didn't see you there typing what I was typing.

[massive]

Sorry, you also asked:

Is Boon the only player from the BBT wagon that you suspect? If not, who else and why (small summaries are fine by me for the time being).

Here's that wagon: BlueBloodedToffee(5) – Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Wake I have as town. I've mentioned why previously. I wish he weren't so susceptible to butterflies and having his grandiose theories repeated back to him, but it is what it is.
Doogal has a couple of accidental slips that make him look town to me, although I would happily repeat the main caveat of his own 164 back to him.
Csareo I think you know my stance on. Unfortunately, if I can't lynch Julius Caesar, I'm going to have to settle with lynching his Marc Antony.
Flubber is ... weird. He voted BBT basically in RVS but confirmed his vote later, meaning he gave the case on him some weight, but there's no real conviction at all. He complains about the game stagnating while doing NOTHING to help unstagnate it. Most of his posts are super-fluffy. I don't know. I've played some games where hiding in plain sight the first couple of days was my way of skating through to when the game made sense, but this is taking that to an epic level. Needs more data.

[massive]

So you guys actually had all these reasons you suspected Boon but were just bullshitting around on the town v town lynch options why?

Why do you believe that Boon being scummy necessitates both Csareo and BBT to be town?

[massive]

So you guys actually had all these reasons you suspected Boon but were just bullshitting around on the town v town lynch options why?

Why do you believe that Boon being scummy necessitates both Csareo and BBT to be town?

My reads on those players are town, has nothing to do with my boon read.

You make it sound like we should be appalled, APPALLED I SAY, at the energy we expended trying to get Csareo lynched. Nuh-uh. Csareo's case is solid and I'll be back there tomorrow. Let's call it THE IDES OF MINI 1609

[massive]

I had a theory (and a dream) that BBT might be a third party.

So you think he's a third-party neighbor? Oy.

[massive]

Seriously, how about you guys "accept lynches" on people with giant cases against them, and not dump your vote based on some throwaway baloney from the beginning of the day? After 66 pages, you would think you'd have better criteria to choose from.

[massive]

What I'm interested in is massive to answer for his actions.

My actions where I presented practically the totality of the case on Boon, and none of it was even remotely related to his playstyle?

massive apparently has been fully aware that this kind of ridiculous VI behavior could be coming from Town PR Boons.

I mentioned the specificness of the "VI" traits that I disliked. None of them counter the actual case I put forth on him.

[massive]

@Fakegod - Another tidbit, the game I played with massive I was a 2 shot dayvig. Don't know if it's relevant, but I'm just trying to give you as much info as I can.

What the heck game was this? It certainly wasn't Normal 1582 (you were vanilla) and if it was Pirate Normal 1587, you bailed and were replaced on Day One.

[massive]

You people are monsters. 30 pages over the weekend? I'm starting. Will try and post it in chunks.

[massive]

Sorry, this is going to backdate a lot of stuff, if I repeat something someone has already said, well, tough noogies.

1729:

Wake

: I think I've realized what your "problem" is. There's a distinction that needs to be made between what's "possible" and what's "probable." It doesn't behoove any of us to have you constantly espousing every possibility, every configuration in the game, because it creates a higher noise floor that we then have to sift through to get at the truth. Yes, it's technically possible for these things to happen. But it will help the rest of us if you can get some focus on the more likely scenarios.

1744:

BBT

: "Also, all this talk of meta is driving me crazy." One of the things I've been seeing in many new games is how much players rely on previous games to create reads. I'm not sure if it's a progression of skill or what, but it's no substitute for things actually IN the game.

1749 Csareo defending Boon! Get out. I would not have seen that coming. Sarcasm.

1756:

Boon

: "WHY THE [SMURF] WOULD I CLAIM TRACKER AS SCUM?!": It's not a horrible choice, as the results are easy to fake -- you just claim you investigated the nightkill. Much easier, in fact, than cop or some other PR, as it gives you a chance to create some smokescreen.

1773:

Boon

: "You [BBT] and massive are my strongest scum reads. massive might actually be about to surpass you in that regard.": Do you have something you'd like to point to specifically, or are you just going to throw my name around?

1795: WELL THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

... aaaaaand by 1798 I realized I was betting myself on how many people would demand to see the contents of this new PT.

... aaaaaand by 1799 already seriously FakeGod? I don't know why but I expect better from you.

1809:

Csareo

: "BBT had a lot of time on his hands, let's not forget.": He's not really going to suggest that BBT is both a fake-neighbor and a fake-mason, is he?

HA HE DID HOLY CATS

OK ... I need a mental break, I didn't make it as far as I had hoped. I should have known by all the pages to expect something crazy.

------

Things to keep in mind as I go.

1724: How did FG's sorting of Boon's meta end up?
... as of 1800, seems to be working to keep Boon alive but makes no mention of reviewing the meta

[massive]

1823:

Csareo

: I think this is the point where you have crossed from being a threat to being a caricature of yourself. Demanding masons out one another. This game has been a poster child for horrible decisions.

1849:

Boon

: INTENT TO UNVOTE OH MY GOD HOW HILARIOUS. The only reason you don't unvote here is because you hope you (or Csareo?) can still push through the BBT lynch, or hold on until deadline.

(I assume, since people were talking about deadlines, we get an extension somewhere due to this mess. Although seriously, 80+ page day ones, I'd nip that in the bud.)

1858:

FakeGod

: "Tracker makes sense in a game with Masons." Does it? So many do-nothing townies, seems like a cop would be the more likely investigative choice. In any case, I don't understand this disconnect. Can you explain please?

1878:

FakeGod

: "I think you should've claimed earlier. It would have broken the stalemate wide open, and may have led to something productive before I arrived." Not crazy about this backseat driving. Not disagreeing, but it's basically needling BBT and not really helping the Csareo / BBT spitting contest that's going on.

1881:

FakeGod

: I actually had to go back to see if you'd even mentioned Jagged before, since this seemed out of nowhere. Jagged is GreyICE's slot so I guess I can see where you're going, but man this seems like a weird third wagon to start so close to deadline.

1885-1888 OH FOR FRENCH TOAST'S SAKE

1894:

FakeGod

: "D1 is absolutely the wrong day to try a desperation lynch on a mason claim." It's like the worst comedy of errors right now. It's hard to read after the fact.

1895:

Boon

: "If I die, then BBT could potentially be scum, and we'll be able to prove it through the second mason eventually outing themselves." Uh. So is this horrible wording, or what? You seem here to believe that there is a second mason. You know that if the second mason outs him/herself, that means they're town and BBT is town ... right?

THROUGH 1925

------

Things to keep in mind as I go.

1724: How did FG's sorting of Boon's meta end up?
... as of 1800, seems to be working to keep Boon alive but makes no mention of reviewing the meta
... as of 1925, no further mention of it

[massive]

1929: Oh there's a blind Flubber vote, good, I was beginning to think it was only Csareo / BBT / FakeGod posting this weekend.

1930:

FakeGod

: "Given a Mason claim and no information on the scum power, I would expect a weaker investigative PR, such as a Tracker." I still don't understand this logic. You're saying that BECAUSE we have so many do-nothing townies, that a tracker makes sense? So when Boon comes back tomorrow morning with "I followed Person X, they didn't go anywhere," we're going to give him a pass, right? Uh no.

1944:

Wake

: "See, folks, this is why I continue to poke and prod for the answers I need." You do realize that the only team who needs these answers are the scum, right? As a townie you have ZERO need to know about masons. You need to let them work in the background.

... aaaaaand at 1953, 20 PAGES AFTER I WENT HOME, I find out we're still only to Friday night. Ha.

By 1960 I really feel like FakeGod must be thinking "what the smurf did I get myself into." He's having to teach Remedial Summer School 101 courses in What Not To Do In Mafia Games.

1974:

FakeGod

: "I'm trying to teach you to be a better player." Haha. My read on FG has flip-flopped a little bit but DANG I LIKE HIS STYLE. Needle needle needle.

1975:

Wake

: "Don't even try to be elitist about what's correct or incorrect when it comes to hunting Scum. For all we know you [FG] could be Scum, so why shouldn't I take all of your words with a grain of salt." Little bit reactionary, huh? And the rest of this post -- while I understand the desire for the truth, it would be best to start understanding what truths help scum more than town. The point of the game isn't to solve it -- it's to lynch all the scum.

1983: Oh there's a blind Doogal vote. The amount of people voting for Jagged on one sentence of case is pretty ... impressive? What's the word I'm looking for there?

1984:

Jagged

: "Why are you policy lynching after 80 pages?" Why indeed. There's lots of work not being done. Someone will say I'm complicit as well, which is possible, and let's all fix that, yeah?

1987:

TelltaleHeart

: "It seems that I'm about to become a distraction to FakeGod. I'm contemplating claiming and taking the lynch for today." This is ominous. And ... why would you be concerned about distracting one singular player? And why, with the amount of junk noise being generated by Csareo, BBT, and Wake in the last 30 pages, would you even be concerned about being a distraction?

Oh man and Csareo's back. What even is a yakuza in 1989? TO THE WIKI ... oh it's not a thing. ???

Why is Csareo telling TTH not to claim in 1991 because too many town have already claimed, and then immediately voting her in 1992? Are we back to randomly policy-lynching people again? YOU JUST SAID YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS TOWN.

1998:

TTH

: HOLY CATS I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING

OK, another sanity break, sorry.

Neighbor/Vengeful. Neighbor/Mason. It's like someone wanted to build a suicide squad.

ALSO PREVIEW HOLY CATS STOP TALKING LET ME CATCH UP

[massive]

Going quickly back to 1998: While I'm not crazy about being the target, I like TTH's head in this. She's already stated that she's having trouble reading me, and this firms up one "unknown" for her. Unfortunately she's dead, so it doesn't necessarily help the rest of the town. But at least she's thinking her role through and not just blanket pointing a gun at BBT or something.

2003:

Wake

: "I am townreading csareo at the moment." I have no idea how you can think BBT is gambiting, call FakeGod possible scum, and then come back with this. There's a huuuuuuuuuge disconnect there.

2013, 2014. I can't even. Here I'll just quote them.

Should TTH flip Scum, I will focus on FG.

If TTH flips scum, I'll focus on BBT. I think he's yakuza.

If TTH is scum, why on earth does she even say anything at all? Why claim in that situation? She's already said she's a neighbor and there appears to be no pressure at all aside from you two goobers. While we can talk about the timing of her claim, and if it was necessary, there's absolutely nothing there to point to her being scum. ESPECIALLY if you believe BBT to be scum, which you two do.

2020:

Wake

: aaaaaaand this is the point where I think I must start looking back at my Wake read.

2037:

FakeGod

: "Scum do not claim vengeful near the deadline asking to be lynched." THIS

2052:

Csareo

: "This is what happens in nearly every game. Scum look for a demanding character, and latch on to him like fleas." Referring to FakeGod. So then why aren't you voting for one of the people sheeping FG here? Why aren't you at least inquiring along this line rather than (yet again) moving your vote back to BBT?

[two pages of Wake and BBT and Csareo not understanding the whole pot-meet-kettle dynamic between them]

Man it must have been frustrating to be a part of that. I mean, the logic for wanting to keep TTH alive is easily understood, right? Why waste a lynch on a townie when you can lynch scum instead? Why the heck is Wake so keen to use TTH's vengeful ability? Why is he less enchanted with BBT's mason ability? It seems like the mason is way more valuable than the vengeful.

2148:

Wake

: She claimed it WITH THE INTENTION OF IT BEING VERIFIABLE. How are you reading her posts and not comprehending that?

2173:

TTH

: WELL THAT ESCALATED QUICKLY

PREVIEW OH GREAT ANOTHER FIVE PAGES

[massive]

2181:

Wake

: "That you affirm so strongly that she is absolutely Town makes me think you've played with her before." Painful that you are willing to rely more on some meta relationship than actual in-game events. PAINFUL.

2196:

Csareo

: "As long as she promises to not use her VIG shot." GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE

2198:

Csareo

: "I've been playing for two years." You've said that a couple of times now, like it makes you a better player or something. In that case, look at my join date, then just sheep me the rest of the game.

2230:

Wake

: "Shooting massive or one of the other lurkers wouldn't be a bad idea, either." Interesting that, once again, someone calls me a lurker and wants to use that as a legitimate reason to kill me.

OH HEY THERE'S BOON HI BOON SO GOOD OF YOU TO HIDE DURING ALL OF THIS

OH 2249 YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME

[massive]

Well now we'll have two pages of discussion of Csareo being force-replaced.

[massive]

2288:

Titus

: "I want to hear from Massive and AK on who they want to lynch." Well I'm still reading, but you can easily see my ISO for my cases on your slot and Boon. I suspect I still have a ways to go before I can answer this question. TTH is a no-go for me.

2290:

Titus

: "Why not shoot BBT? It's a decent goid shot and a lot of players would get reads." Nice job picking up where your predecessor left off. Shoot the claimed mason! Why not! What could it hurt?

2322 :

Titus

: "I haven't read yet, but for right now, I'm inclined to want JA vigged if we lynch HHT [TTH]. I'm less inclinded to do it based off his recent posting. Flipping them both would do significant amounts for me finding where the scum likely are." Can you explain a little more about why lynching TTH would provide additional information over and above just lynching JA in this case?

I'M STARTING TO GLAZE OVER YOU GUYS MY EXPECTATIONS HAVE BEEN SET SUPER HIGH NOW

Oooh Boon coming to AK's rescue is interesting.

2396-99 Oh look it's Flubber again. Nooooooot really doing anything.

2419: Was reading Doogal's reads and honestly couldn't remember if he was anywhere near consistent with his reads. (Specifically, I couldn't remember why he thought Csareo was town.) So I went back to look and found some other incongruous thoughts that I thought I should ask about:

393: Boon is scum.
535: Boon is town.

535: BBT, GreyICE (now Jagged) scum, everyone else null.
1112: People on Csareo scum (me, Green Crayons, Rufflig, 0mph (now FakeGod), BBT)

Can you talk a little about these opinion changes?

OK, I made it up to my first post this morning, so capping this there so I can follow up from any questions on my thoughts.

[massive]

One of the things that bother me the most is that I've posted more than 377 posts (sans Csareo the most active player here), yet Rufflig, Flubber, massive, and Doogal all have less than 100 posts. I'm not counting Titus or Jagged because they replaced in later. The game has over 2,000 posts.

I know some say that activity and post count aren't indicative of alignment, but seriously, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye?

Well, you tell me. You seem to have turned a blind eye to those players and are continuing to focus on Csareo-Titus, BBT, and TTH. And maybe FakeGod. So let's say you shouldn't turn a blind eye. Ready? Ask away! Imma get lunch but I'll be here all afternoon.

[massive]

You still haven't answered why mislynching you intentionally to use your vengeful ability would be beneficial in any way. We gain a kill at the expense of a mislynch and that kill comes without the information granted by VCA and without the time to analyze the past posts for associations.

How about: Rather than do that, we just let her tell us who she WOULD kill via vengeful, and then we just lynch them? Because that way we're actually up a townie.

AH YES 2542 DOOGAL MY BOY FINALLY

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Can someone give me some thoughts on the above please.

Is there anything in that voting pattern?

It's pretty dependent on how you feel about the targets, in my mind. And how you think Flubber is playing. I don't think I would be willing to infer (necessarily) that you or Jagged are town because of it, nor that all of them are scum. And I think voting patterns are better looked at for the individual voter.

Wake

, if you have specific knowledge about the layout of the game, maybe you should tell us who your scumbuddies are and we can all be done with this exhausting day. Otherwise, how about saving bashing the setup until the end, yeah? Also, weren't you looking for better engagement from a bunch of people? Because I see you just talking to the same old same old.

[massive]

Also, weren't you looking for better engagement from a bunch of people? Because I see you just talking to the same old same old.

I've noticed for a few posts that you've been trying to redirect my attention.

Yes, because you repeat yourself A LOT and none of it is making any progress. And you yourself specifically said you wanted better engagement from those specific players. Do you expect us just to magically pop up and bend to your whim? Why, since we can't seem to get you to help US out at all?

[massive]

If Scum is playing a game of chicken with me, so they can try using it against me Day 2, I'll not fall for that trap again.

Do you have a conspiracy theory for every Mafia game scenario?

massive or TTH is gonna have to make a decision.

I hate the JA train. HATE IT. I especially don't like seeing Boon and Flubber and Titus all on it. But I will hammer at deadline in order to avoid no-lynch. Anyone wants to convince me on the AK train, I'm open.

[massive]

Catching up but I saw something I wanted to chime in after the first page very quickly. I also had GC as the mason buddy; it was a lot easier for me because I could remove myself from the equation. I also figured that TTH thought it was me and hence her switch of position; I didn't dissuade her since it looked like a good plot to protect GC at least a little. I'll continue reading but I'm on my phone so don't expect books.

[massive]

But, then again, I could say that of Doogal, Anatole, Rufflig, and massive. I keep forgetting they're in the game.

You know, you keep name-dropping me and then doing zero to try and interact with me, or to remember that I'm offline on weekends or take the time to check whether I'm VLA. Is there something specifically you'd like to engage me about my game play?

[massive]

Titus I'm really not sure on. Leaning town for now.

Considering this is Csareo's slot, what made you go from absolute scum to leaning town?

[massive]

Well, I was expecting a complete vote analysis, and got ... maybe half of one. Specifically this:

Then there's some interesting wagon motion going on. Csareo leaves the TTH wagon to vote confirmed town. I sub in and pick the wrong choice out of TTH and Jagged Appliance.

I realize you have to present yourself as town for us to trust any of this, so why is this just a throwaway sentence in the middle of the analysis? Either you understand that most of us wouldn't trust a VCA on Csareo's wagon, so you leave it out (including this little jab at your innocence), or you go all-in and do a VCA on Csareo's wagon from yesterday too. I don't know. Cake and eat it too here?

[massive]

Phone posting through the weekend. Will try and catch up tonight; just letting you know I'm not ignoring the game.

[massive]

Seriously, you guys, 15 pages? I was only out like two days. Guess I need to find an actual computer tomorrow and not attempt to catch up via phone.

[massive]

Online and reading.

[massive]

Let me know if it's important to answer the now-twenty-pages ago questions of "who is scummy" and "who is more townie". Just going to keep reading. At this point it's probably still Boon / Csareo-Titus / Flubber in some order, and I had GC > FG.

2873:

Doogal

: Misrepping a bit that the neighbor thread said "how do we solve a problem like Maria" in regards to Wake; what it really said was "have you ever played with him."

... which I see snowballed so I can probably shut up and keep reading.

2923:

Boon

: Given what's going on at this point, AND that he got a "no result" on me last night, why would Boon keep his attention on me? Is that the logical play of a watcher? And if he's concerned he might have been role blocked, why hasn't he asked the mod for clarification? By 2943 he still is wondering if he was or wasn't.

2969:

Rufflig

: While TTH may have been mathematically possible, I don't think it was ever REALLY possible. I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't going to move onto TTH, which means that even with AK not voting, you weren't going to get a lynch.

2985:

Boon

: Flubber's "they sound like scum v scum" was horrible to start with, and Boon echoing it here is really just as bad. Sounds like neither of them care which of the two get lynched.

OH AND THEN DOOGAL AGREES RIGHT AFTER DOOGAL ME BOY WHAT ARE YA DOIN

Made it to 3000! Right now: Boon is number one with a bullet, Flubber, and then the rest of you. Titus has kinda gone away, I'm curious where FakeGod-Rufflig is going to go, AK is surly, Doogal is I HOPE just following the wrong people. Wake is still town, BBT is obvtown, TTH is null.

[massive]

3005:

AK

: You must have been looking under your couch cushions because you didn't find this in the game thread. Can you give me two or three links that might explain your shift?

3006 from TTH is very good.

3038:

BBT

: In this post we see a SECOND suggestion to lynch AK second after some first choice flips scum. I'm still 250 or so posts from the end, but at some point, someone says "we all think AK is associatively scum so let's just lynch him," right?

3041:

Wake

: I've told you why I think you're town, but here's another reason that might be influencing FG's read on you: You're the worst smoke screener ever. You latch onto every random idea and run it into the ground. There's no subtlety to your game, which means that your posts, while sometimes mind-boggling, are at the very least AUTHENTIC. Say what you want about being able to tailor or modify your game, I've played exactly one game with you and I already feel like I could read you like a book in future games.

3100. A lot of ego in the last fifty posts. Did Boon even post in those 100? I don't think he did. I don't think Flubber did either. This is the perfect game for scum to hide a couple of people in the shadows while you guys yell about your superiorscum hunting techniques.

[massive]

3113:

Telltale Heart

: Green Crayons was the only vocal player who really didn't have anyone suspicious of him. BBT and yourself, Csareo, Wake, even FakeGod all had people who were specifically suspicious of them. They figured he was a safe kill that wouldn't clarify any of the muddy waters that D1 provided. They didn't know he was the other mason. If they did, they would have picked someone that wouldn't auto-townie another player.

I suspect you know this. If you think AK is scum, did you expect him to admit this?

6) Who is massive?

I am.

(Come on, you had to see that coming.)

Up to 3200. TTH's frustration at being unheard amongst a sea of egos shouting about apologies and conspiracy theories is pretty real. I can see how that frustration would turn into her "gambit" -- when you can't do anything about it, you recede into the shadows, so actually having the ability to do something about it brings about her reaction. This coupled with the way her claim first happened means TTH is town, therefore telling the truth, and votes on her look pretty silly.

Titus

, you want to do a good VCA? How about looking at the TTH train from yesterday compared to the train today? Mostly I'd be interested in who's on both but has no idea of actually being vengefully shot.

Still no Boon, still no Flubber, who are both safely staying out of the way and letting you guys try and lynch TTH again.

[massive]

You seemed unsure on that read TTH, what's changed?

You want complete honesty on that answer? (Well, you're getting it, so too bad if you don't.)

The reason for my initial doubts was that I thought Anatole was hinting at bulletproof. He talked about it being an "all-passive" game, which leads me to believe that he has one. Regardless of how rational or irrational, that thought has taken hold and I really don't want to be lynched to be rewarded with shooting a bulletproof.

Now he's trying to slam the breaks on my lynch while projecting the "don't shoot me" attitude onto Boonskiies in case I get the couple more votes. So I'm back to thinking he's scum now.

So this case is very good and I would happily sheep this buuuuuuuuuut since you seem insistent on voting for yourself, I'll start the train.

VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

[massive]

Lost these somewhere:

3243:

Boon

: Haha, I love it that Boon has to come into the thread and state intent to hammer rather than just hammering, because he knows that if he showed up and just blindly hammered that TTH would shoot his head off. Not to mention this whole post reads as "I'm going to hammer unless you're going to shoot someone I don't want you to shoot."

3264:

Boon

: "massive is my biggest scum read, but doesn't post much" Heehee. Pot meet kettle much?

[massive]

In that case, would you like to take today's post (or tomorrow's, I'm not picky) to delineate WHY I am your top scum read, so much so that you are willing to ignore your own result to continue listing me as your top scum read?

[massive]

2985:

Boon

: Flubber's "they sound like scum v scum" was horrible to start with, and Boon echoing it here is really just as bad. Sounds like neither of them care which of the two get lynched.

Why would FG act like the anti-town-shit-sandwich he ripped apart D1?

What is your read on Rufflig?

How come you always talk about us and not with us?

FakeGod: I'm not sure what you mean here. If you give me some specifics or less indirect nouns, I might have a clearer picture. Who's the initial shit sandwich?

Rufflig: I need to re-read him. I felt moderately ok about him yesterday, his thoughts on Boon were good even though his thoughts on the neighborhood were poor, but that's a null total probably. Today has been worse but I'm nowhere near FG-confident about that. He'd be "slightly scum" if you want me to commit to a read right now. In the FG-Rufflig 1v1, Id be more likely to vote Rufflig, but I think that's probably moot.

i think it seems that way because I'm forced into doing catch ups and not posting "live" with other people. Unfortunately for me, it goes both ways, so while you may feel slighted by just lil ol me, I actually feel like most of the town is ignoring me. I was looking at my own ISO and realized I had about a dozen questions yesterday go unanswered as the noise levels pitched and waned. I've said to Wake before: I'm happy to interact. Whatcha got?

[massive]

3100. A lot of ego in the last fifty posts. Did Boon even post in those 100? I don't think he did. I don't think Flubber did either. This is the perfect game for scum to hide a couple of people in the shadows while you guys yell about your superiorscum hunting techniques.

Who's lynch lead would you rather follow and why?

Given only the choice between you and him? Him, I've alrway made one complete case against him, and I don't buy the tracker claim.

[massive]

I've phrased my question poorly. FG and BBT are both in a power struggle to lead today's lynch. Who would you rather sheep?

In a vacuum, BBT as the confirmed townie.

It's kind of a loaded question, though, isn't it?

The initial shit sandwich would be the anti-town play primarily by BBT, Csaero, and Wake. I see the main cause of this issue as immaturity. FG's flip from "parent" to "child" is odd, but I'm failing to find a satisfying theory to explain the cause of this flip. How do you feel about it?

It was very interesting to read after the fact! I took a long hiatus and it's always interesting to see how gameplay has progressed in that time; I can't imagine anyone being concerned about "losing town cred" back in the early days. That's just not something I consider, so it's hard to read the posts and attach a similar emotion to them. My immediate thought was "scum care more about this than town." He held onto it

so long

I actually came back around to him being genuine in his emotion.

Were there better ways to go about it ? Probably. Given he felt his town cred was blown up, and seeing that the town responds to that sort of behavior a la D1, is it unreasonable to expect him to fight fire with fire?

[massive]

You'd probably have an easier time getting people to join your bandwagon if you:

(a) had a well-deceloped and well-written case on why I'm scummy
(b) weren't going against your own unclear "result"
(c) had any case at all
(d) hadn't spent the entire day hiding with your head in the sand

[massive]

So if Rufflig flips town I'm assuming you're going to resign from Mafia and go live in a monastery somewhere reflecting on your life?

If I'm wrong, then I pay up what I promised.

I self-vote.

I can't imagine any of us are really following your lead right now.

[massive]

But we seriously need to stop being ok with Massive's perpetual catchup fluffing,

I don't even know what that means. Are you implying I'm not here reading the thread, that I wasn't participating leading up to TTH's lynch? Because ... I know I've said I'm not online on the weekends, and I know you aren't going to tell me that's scummy.

[massive]

Yes, by all means, let's continue our conversation! Maybe it will even get other people interested in us. I haven't been able to get Wake to do anything but complain about how I won't interact with him. Maybe some instruction will help.

Is there another source of leadership you would prefer?

No. I realize this is a day late and a dollar short, but there are very few players I trust, and that list is getting shorter. I think yesterday at least you might have been able to infer that I was willing to work with TTH.

What do you think of BBT's play so far?

D1 was tough. It's clear after the fact that he was operating from a position of power the entire day, and was content to goad and prod whoever was voting for him, always having the "get out of jail free" card in his back pocket. Unfortunately he preferred doing that to figuring out who Csareo's teammates might have been. (That being said, there's lots of bad play on D1, no need to single out BBT.) D2 was better until TTH managed to steal the spotlight again.

When do you think FG lost his town cred? My read didn't shake on him till after his maturity dropped.

Even during his temper tantrum yesterday, as soon as he was back trying to prevent TTH from throwing her game away, I was OK with his game. I liked his tone and I liked his evenness in handling what was obviously a tricky game state. Today, not so much. Led the lynch on Jagged. 1v1ed Rufflig which was enough to convince TTH to vengeful him instead of her own scum reads. Didn't even give his self-vote promise a courtesy vote, which just destroys any of his credibility in his interrogation of Csareo.

The thing I keep thinking about his "breaking up of the town v town" really only ended up breaking up Csareo's train -- Everybody on BBT stayed there while the Csareo voters moved onto Boon. BBT was still a potential mislynch until the TTH claim, really.

Do you think this conversation is productive right now?

I actually do, and honestly I think it might be better that I ended up answering these today rather than yesterday. I don't think I could have prevented TTH's lynch and this line of conversation might have just been a distraction. So let me ask you some questions in return. Where do you want to go today? How much credence do you give either Titus's or BBT's VCAs?

[massive]

I do guarantee that lynching through these players will win us the game.

Doogal121
Flubbernugget
massive
Anatole Kuragin

The Rufflig

FakeGod, how do you feel about this statement now?

[massive]

Do you have a read on AK? I can't read him worth shit.

I've never played with him and I'm not a "previous games" kind of guy. So far every time I wrap up my response is "AK is surly" which, while true, is null. I can probably do a quick ISO because I remember someone saying how quick he jumped off Boons with the tracker claim.

37 votes BBT on the neighborhood out. 42 "at least one scum in the neighborhood." 75 claims bad at early scumreads, good at early townreads, has none. ISO 21-26 tries to disperse the TTH "scumslip" from her neighbor thread. So far his D1 ISO reads like someone who is looking for town and not scum. 213 has townreads on TTH and Doogal, which is consistent with his defense of TTH -- but that post also looks a little weird since he refuses to scumread Wake or BBT despite disliking their gameplay. If TTH is town and worth defending, doesn't that make BBT at least sorta scummy? 216 says that it's low likelihood that either BBT and TTH are scum, and this seems like a weird thing to hang out there, since everyone else was sure at least one of them was scum, and the rest of us weren't anywhere near confident enough to state something like that. 231 starts interacting with Wake which I think could cause read confusion, because how can you scumread someone for telling Wake how bananas some of his theories are? Frustration and the ultimate vote in 297 feels real. 346 is back to saying he was one of the early people saying there was likely scum in the neighborhood. 586 back to BBT town. 1080 back to "at least one scum in the neighborhood." 1100 townreads are BBT, Doogal, GC, Csareo. Where did TTH go and how is he the ONLY person who doesn't pick sides in BBT v Csareo? (Both town, 1083)

1463 is where the Boons stuff starts. Claims Boons is a good lynch here. Unmoved by the PR softclaim (1537 says he believes Boons is lying) but the tracker fullclaim elicits an unvote (1621). But makes further references to disbelieving Boons' claim (like 2498, 2754) 2846 says Boons is his only scumread but is nowhere near voting for him. Still making reference to Boons despite voting for TTH. (3152. 3158)

TTH Day 2 vote. Unvotes and votes Wake (?), then back to TTH.

Today he says he wants attention on Boons, Wake, and Titus, but votes himself.

How has he never gone back and voted Boons after the initial claim wagon? He certainly has consistently said he disbelieves his claim, and is still listing him as likely scum.

Sorry, it's late and that got long, I know I should link it up but you can pull up his ISO and read along.

[massive]

Who are your top 3 scum massive?

I think I want to lynch Titus today.

AK is probably the one I'm most confident in. Wake and BBT are town, and Doogal too. Flubber is trending up for me (I like his change in gameplay late D2 / today, and his reads line up with mine to some extent), and FakeGod is trending down. That leaves Titus who has done nothing to inspire confidence after replacing Csareo, and Boons who has disappeared yet again.

massive, you do realize that BBT told me to call off the 1v1, and I did?

Otherwise, I would be self-voting today.

I did not, and this still is kinda chickenshitty. If Csareo had given up BBT's wagon and BBT ended up dead N1, you'd still hold him to it, and jump on him when he didn't.

[massive]

I'm voting AK right? OK.

Wake, honestly, can you try and go like one day -- one calendar day even, not even one whole game day -- without feeling the urge to obfuscate with some inane conspiracy theory?

[massive]

Oh I'm not voting AK? Ok.

intent to Boonskiies

[massive]

without feeling the urge to obfuscate with some inane conspiracy theory?

Name

one

.

We can start with "scum skipped a kill to fake a protective role." Then if that's not enough, we can go on to "both neighbors are scum and are faking a neighbor thread."

Would you like me to continue?

[massive]

I'm still on page 151

[massive]

Do not blame me for being cynical and questioning everything.

There is a loooooong distance between "being cynical" and letting every tin-foil possibility cloud your perception of the game. One suggestion I would make going forward would be to figure out how to separate the signal from the noise -- it will help you follow rabbitholes that actually benefit the town, and will help us separate signal from noise as well.

[massive]

In that case, I would like a

sandwich

with lots of

mustard

delivered to my

office

.

kthxbye

[massive]

I'm here. I'm still sad that people are saying I'm their "most scummy read" without providing any case at all. FG I understand, it's POE, but Boons has been calling me his "most scummy read" since D2 and has done (a) absolutely nothing to prove it and (2) a bunch of night actions that don't compute with finding me the "most scummy" in the game. Village idiot can only go so far. Care to explain how you chose Flubber, and how you see him connected to me (your top scum) or to AK (the actual flipped scum)?

BBT

: See 3649, 3662. (Before you ask, Boons guilty is 3701.)

[massive]

It seems that our jailkeeper shared my massive scumread.

Do you think Flubber actually found me scummy, or was operating off of POE / town reads like you are? Do you think Flubber was only looking to jailkeep his scum reads? If you think I'm scum and that Flubber jailed me, how did I kill him?

Massive, help me out here.

If you're scum, I'm just going to have to say well played because you have me completely fooled. Why did you not vote AK at the end of 3649?

Because that would have put him at L-1 and there was no hurry. We still needed Boons' result and I still wanted time to mull over FakeGod and his role in various game events (and to interact with Flubber further, since I was having trouble figuring him out). Thread had been open for a whopping 8 hours.

[massive]

Massive, you still don't believe Boon's claim?

Let's just say I'm still wary of it. AK had enough heat on him after fighting with TTH and somehow surviving that he could have been an easy casualty to build town cred. Boons hasn't provided any other provable results.

Flub had two options.

He could either protect our Mason, or he could try to stop the kill by blocking the scum making the kill.

Flub clearly believed you are scum.

I agree with this. Clearly the right jailkeep is BBT since he has no role to block, and is confirmed town. You're saying you believe Boons' result to be

more likely

than Flubber making a good play? Despite having most likely done it N2 to block the first attempt on BBT?

[massive]

VOTE: Doogal

[massive]

I love that even after I hammer Doogal you're wondering if he's town or scum. It's cute.

[massive]

Massive, have scum won?

Dude, I don't know, I'm third-party. I needed to get down to five to play kingmaker.

[massive]

Kingmaker means I can't win, but I can pick who wins. Assuming I'm not nightkilled overnight. Scum needs to kill a townie to make it 2-2-1 though.

[massive]

FakeGod -- if you were a survivor in this game, would you feel comfortable parking your vote ANYWHERE and expecting the town to eventually lynch someone? I don't. Plus, in all honesty, I'd like to have some control over my own fate.

Edit: Oh. I see. You MISTYPED.

[massive]

You gave me six minutes to answer? OK.

[massive]

BBT, tell me where you want my vote. You probably figured out that you can't lynch me and risk 2v2, but I'm willing to vote where you want. I figured FG was scum so now I have no one to push. If Wake is scum he did a very good job letting his crazy cover it up.

[massive]

Kingmaker is not a named role, it's just how I am looking at my place in the game.

I will say that I definitely think it's 2-2-1 at this point. The amount of town power would overpower a two-man scum team easily.

[massive]

BBT hard-town-reading me put me a little too close to being a nightkill target. I had to survive last night and killing Doogal was the surest way to do so. I didn't think FakeGod would kill me when he felt he could lynch me.

Course, he turned up town.

[massive]

I didn't kill Doogal. I did lynch Doogal though.

I think it's impossible to believe that BOTH BBT and Jagged were completely town, so one of Titus or Boons has to be scum. Question is, would they be so brazen as to vote together on BBT, Jagged, AND TTH? That to me seems unlikely.

[massive]

I'm SK.

[massive]

Don't let Wake quickwin this game.

[massive]

FG was killed because I thought I needed to crosskill last night. That was the intention as he surely was most likely of the five of you to be scum. (His defense of Titus last game day, plus his consistent townread of Wake, had me believe it was FG / Wake.)

[massive]

N1 : No kill. Boon had been outed as tracker and had been vocal in suspecting me. It seemed like the best play.
N2 : Flubbered.
N3 : Flubbered. Thanks scum for killing him.
N4: FakeGod.

[massive]

SK implies there being two kills each Night.

It certainly wasn't for not trying. I assume Flubber thought he had found scum when there was no kill N2 (and I assume scum tried to kill me as well N2, so we were double-Flubbered). I don't know who scum missed on last night, want to fill me in, Wake?

Also please note that, as I have mentioned, scum know that if they can lynch me, it will be 2v2 and they win. Please watch these votes and be smart, BBT.

And also please note that Bomb is not explicitly normal either.

[massive]

It is not listed in the accepted roles for Normal games. It's not listed in the explicitly banned roles either.

[massive]

I did not claim Survivor. FakeGod tried to put that on me.
I did not claim Kingmaker as a role. Hell I didn't even know that there WAS a role called that. I meant it in a endgame way and that definition is supported in the wiki as well. Wake is the one who is putting that on me.

[massive]

BBT, think about this. Think about the amount of power that town has. Think about whether that would be balanced in a game with three goons. Think about whether I was playing at scumhunting or actually scumhunting. Think about my night choices. Think about whether I make sense as a partner for AK. Don't let your ego get you again in this game.

And then look again at Wake saying I claimed Kingmaker rather than what you quoted, which was that I wanted to get down to five players to play kingmaker.

[massive]

I wish FakeGod was still here...

You pulled a guilty on a scum and you want help? FakeGod was the worst leader this town could have had. The only thing he did right was try and prevent TTH from lynching herself.

[massive]

SK can win games though.

You said you can't win.

I'm pretty sure I can't. You lynch one scum today, they shoot me back and go to LYLO. You lynch town today and scum win.

[massive]

(I didn't mean it wasn't POSSIBLE for me to win, or that I had no win condition, like you seem to be implying.)

[massive]

It took too long to get a scum. SK needs town to help him out.

[massive]

I don't know. Scum win if they can lynch me. Unfortunately, now that I'm mathing it, I can actually win overnight assuming I can shoot the last scum and they kill one of the townies. Ha. Woo!

[massive]

Hrm. Well this got a lot more interesting all of a sudden!

[massive]

Man I am more clever even than I thought I was being.

[massive]

You would have died EVERY night if scum didn't think they could manipulate you. FakeGod did a very good job of pointing out how Csareo / Titus may have worked to manipulate you. He also did a very good job of trying to manipulate you, which is why he ate a bullet.

[massive]

Ha, that's probably why there was no other kill last night. They knew they could get me lynched and win, didn't need the extra kill, and needed to avoid the tracker.

[massive]

OK, BBT. I had fun playing with you and if you need to lynch me, then I'm down. I bet the others will have no problem adding votes. Scum definitely outplayed town in this game, so why not just give 'em the win?

[massive]

I'll lynch massive as well. It guarantees us another day. You can't let scum manipulate you tomorrow though, BBT.

This is the worst kind of wrong answer as it in no way guarantees you NOTHING. So ... Boon/Titus I guess?

Also, has Wake's vote really been sitting on me this whole time? WOW

[massive]

Jesus christmas at the very least learn the difference between Kingmaker with a capital K, which you continue to insist I claimed, and kingmaker with a lowercase k, which is what I actually said. I know you've spent the game being obtuse, but this is criminally purposeful.

vote Wake

I like how hard you're trying to distance yourself from Titus. Smart play really since she somehow amazed to make people forget she was Csareo. Parking your vote on me is easy when your buddy is lurking and can "magically appear" as soon as BBT votes.

[massive]

I already told you, I killed FakeGod last night. You gotta stop skipping details.

And I'm pretty sure you yourself said Yiu believed Flubber jailed me N2 and N3. Or maybe that was FG.

Trust me, it was a pain in the ass missing two kills. I honestly don't know why Flubber picked me to jail, but hey, town had other problems, amirite?

[massive]

I am pretty evil. But also please note you are doing the same dumb thing Wake is doing with the capital K. I said I needed to get to five and that was how I did it. Sure meant scum didn't shoot me. Go back and read my post. I will be really pissed if scum wins because of failed reading comprehension on something this simple.

[massive]

I hope that this has shown Boon that he can excel in a Mafia game without having to work hard to make a fool of himself.

I will be honest -- and this is in the dead thread -- I actively avoided posting and collaborating in the scum thread until AK was killed. This was started at first because I honestly felt that I'd be SUPER likely to lynch Boon in early days, and I figured I'd feel better about any links back to him if I just simply had no idea what he was thinking or where he was going. As the game went on, it became something of an experiment for me, and it didn't seem to impact the actual gameplay of our team. I could honestly say "I wouldn't have killed Green Crayons, he was obviously the other mason" so it felt like, to me, it actually gave me an extra layer of faux-credibility. Once AK got lynched I did pop in, but even after that I think it felt super-obvious that I wasn't interacting with Boon as much as I was with everyone else.

I will say that not flat-out refuting FakeGod's "are you claiming survivor" right after Doogal's lynch was my downfall. I don't know where exactly I was going, but I knew that the night actions actually could explain me being an SK, but I should have known that, given the opportunity, Wake would latch onto something that I considered unimportant and then miscomprehend it into Something Lynchable. I guess I learned one new lesson: Once the town understands you're a liar, no ones going to believe the new lies you tell them to cover up the old ones!