Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Csareo]

@BBT, Being reactionary isn't a playstyle trait.
Reactionary, is to be

extremely

reactive to a push.
Usually if we break a pattern, or pressure someone that you are 100% alligned with.

These reactions have been recorded consistently throughout the whole game.
If someone tunnels you, we see you "React" by voting that person.
Whenever a new wagon takes off you "React" and switch wagons.
Most suspicious of all, is how others react to your vote hopping and defensiveness.

What's attractive about this lynch, is that it will narrow the game down to two possibilities either way you flip (third being scum is inactive)

#1. You flip scum

- We now know that scum are infested on my wagon

#2 You flip town

- We now know that there are scum infested on your wagon
or...
- Scum were inactive this phase

@To Everyone, Either way, this would be a well calculated lynch, and despite my very strong scum read on BBT, even if he flipped town, we would know a lot about scum, and be in a good position.
As for the night kill, I see two possibilities.

#1. BBT Flips Scum

- I'll be NK'd, to stop a tunnel on players participating on my wagon
- They'll leave me alive as they think I'll be easy to mislynch (and they would be right)
They'll either kill a townie or mafia member who was also on my wagon to clear the others of suspicion

#2. BBT Flips Town

- They'll kill an inactive and let us battle it out
Which is what I would do if he flips town, were I also scum.

Any other thoughts or things we should look out for in the NP?

[Jagged Appliance]

People have said that it's likely that either BBT or Csareo is scum because of the dynamics of the two wagons. Could someone explan this to me?

Right now I'm not happy with Omph's vote on Csareo which seems to be a remnant vote from Scrambles. I'm also not happy with Doogal's vote on BBT and would like to see Doogal respond to post 916. Apologies for low content but I'm still trying to sift through this thread and get a better grasp of it.

[Green Crayons]

I think the theory is that scum would not want to jump away from the town wagon and onto their scumbuddy's wagon to bus, because it's still a possibility that town will defect from their current wagon on the scum and join the wagon on the town.

It's speculation that simply explains how the current game state is consistent with one of the wagons being on scum, but it does not provide evidence that one of the wagons is on scum.

For example, a potential scenario is that both Csareo and BBT are town. If that is in fact the situation we are facing, scum moving from one wagon to the other would seal in a lynch and bring a lot of attention to them: Why did they decide to switch wagons now? What was it about their previous suspicions that they were not only able to get over, but then to decide that the other wagon was actually more valid all this time? Etc. In that case, it's more advantageous for scum to stick to their wagon (or on no wagon) and simply let the town figure out who to kill, and hence, little movement.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Back in the office and catching up, sorry last week was kinda rough so I wasn't around much.

[Doogal121]

@Doogal:

(1) Observation: You claimed ignorance about game mechanics in Post 40, going so far to make a joke (?) about whether TTH and BBT being "neighbors" is a game mechanic or a IRL aspect of their play. Then, in your very next post, Post 110, you appear very knowledgeable about game mechanics, including how a survivor role was implemented into a neighbor scenario.

Question: What explains this broad discrepancy in your knowledge about roles generally, and the neighbor role specifically?


(2) Observation: In Post 164, you faulted BBT for "randomly sheep<ing> instead of engage and pressure." It would appear that you are referring to BBT's vote for scrambles (Post 155), which BBT explained as being a vote for a lurker (Post 157, Post 159). I scrolled through the previous pages, and it does not appear that anyone else was voting for scrambles before BBT's post.

Question: How was BBT's lurker vote on scrambles "sheeping," and how did it not try to "engage and pressure" scrambles to provide substantive content to the thread?


(3) Observation: In Post 164 and Post 375, you mention your willingness to vote GreyICE, but only upon other people's approval of your suspicions.

Question (A): Why were you making a GreyICE vote contingent upon the approval of other players?

Question (B): What changed by Post 535, when you finally vote switched to GreyICE? (Only Anatole had voted GreyICE at this time, and a quick skim of the preceding pages reveals that GreyICE was not on anyone's mind.)


(4) Observation: You said:

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.

Question: What other players constituted this "plenty" of scum candidates at that time? How about now?

I'm back everybody. I go away for a weekend and this whole place blows up. Crazy catching up, if I miss something, please let me know.

1. I never heard of Neighbors before. In the next post, it was response to GreyIce who posted a previous AK game where I read all the role PMs and the PT so I got the idea of how Neighbors worked. It also showed that GreyIce mischaracterised AK's experience. I then read a couple of other AK games (just the role PM's and final results) to confirm that AK wasn't lying.
2. It wasn't the vote on scrambles, it was the vote on AK that really got under my skin. Greyice started a bad wagon based upon LaL and BBT didn't even bother to read the link to see if Greyice was correct before throwing a vote down.
3A. If BBT hadn't quick jumped onto the wagon that Greyice started, I would have voted for Greyice just for misleading us. As scummy as I thought that was, BBT was scummier for jumping on that wagon.
3B. I felt I couldn't leave my vote on BBT for fear of Boonskies troll hammer coming in and we still had plenty of time (and I wanted to see if a counter wagon appeared) so I thought putting my vote on Greyice would help provide pressure on him, hopefully to get him to answer why he threw down some BS and then disappeared.
4. The scumminess was BBT sheeping Greyice and Greyice throwing down a BS LaL arguement. We also had the whole AK vs Wake thing to go through which I felt was Town vs Town but I thought we might be able to analyze the other participants to see if any thing scummy ended up coming out of it.

Right now, I'm 99% certain BBT is scum and I'd love to see him hang. As for Greyice, I'm willing to listen to the replacement to find out if the slot was scum or Greyice was just a crap player. Given the drop off afterwords, I'm slightly leaning to laziness instead of intentional misdirection being behind the LaL case.

Hope this answers your questions, I'll give another overview later once I'm all read up.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I can talk about another neighbor game now that had previously been in progress - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58353 3 person neighborhood with a scum (traitor) and two townies.

[DoctorPepper]

Vote Count 1.06

BlueBloodedToffee(6)

– TellTaleHeart, Flubbernugget, Csareo, Boonskiies, Doogal121, Wake88

Csareo(5)

– Omph, The Rufflig, Green Crayons, BlueBloodedToffee, massive

Anatole Kuragin(1)

– JaggedAppliance

JaggedAppliance(1)

– Anatole Kuragin

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch
New deadline is on Sunday, September 28, 2014, 11:00 AM {(expired on 2014-09-28 11:00:00)}

Mod notes:

Wake88 is V/LA until the22nd
Sorry for the shoddy modding i've had a busy busy 2 weeks. Bert was suppoed to give a VC yesterday.
Also iOS 8 has been consistently giving me trouble when i use it to do modstuff (slows down typing PMs, crashes during VC updates)
Prodding massive and Omph[/area]

[Anatole Kuragin]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

GreyICE did what I saw and still see as the most bombastically scummy thing in the game so far and it's being completely ignored because he replaced out, and his replacement hasn't touched on it once. I think that's shady as fuck.

Flubber, put the spotlight on me please. I will answer whatever you want - I find it weird that you're trying to steer the discussion without actually "engaging" me.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

Rufflig -

Give final reads, too.

That's something pro-Town you could do.

Would you do me a favor, Wake88? Pressure Csareo into making a proper reads list, too. Csareo's BBT and x are scum and everyone else is null/town should not be allowed to stand as a reads list.

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

Lynch BBT? No thanks. However, I'm up for shining some light on Anatole Kuragin. I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Why can't you put pressure on Csareo or me yourself? What do YOU have to say on the subject?

[TellTaleHeart]

@Green Crayons:

I still think BBT is likely scum. I had doubts a while ago and tried to make myself happy with a townread on him, but failed for a few reasons. There's

still

the neighbor meta and I absolutely hate the Csareo vote. The whole "reactive is my meta" isn't doing much for me either since that was his go-to line when I called him out on it in Chosen mafia.
The only thing that makes me hesitate is that I don't know if he actually thought he was chasing a scumslip with his game-opening post. I guess that's my fault since I claimed the neighborhood thing. *sigh*

And this is exactly why the idea of lynching Flubber was just a policy lynch. ^

Why?! I agreed with pretty much every word of that post.

Spoiler:

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

@Flubber, please elaborate on both these points.

This game is stagnating. Like, my reads have not changed AT ALL since my last post. Actually, no, I'm town reading Green Crayons. Yay. Poor Wake has been begging for summaries that just aren't happening, and I think it's because nobody really knows what the fuck is going on right now. We need a change in gamestate now before things get even more apathetic.

Everybody's fighting over Csaero to the point where we're better off just flipping a coin on whether or not to lynch him than actually discussing it. And if that's all this thread is going to become I just want someone dead, preferably my scum read.

I want a spotlight on AK because all of his discussion seems like "low hanging fruit" attacks. He's picking things that are incredibly obviously anti-town and tunneling the shit out of them, when their overall scumminess should be implied. I want thoughtful insight from him.

-------------

Also restating my scum read on BBT because I already typed it up:

BBT was scummy for sheeping GreyICE, and immediately hopping off the vote when it went nowhere. Everything else he's done has been incredibly reactionary, and his major defense of it boils down to "that's just my meta," when it says in his

fucking sig of all places

that meta arguments are full of shit. Seems like desperate scum not knowing how to defend his actions. Oh and I feel he's active lurking by making no other contributions in the last few pages than saying I should be lynched for active lurking.

Other people I would vote for are massive and Anatole.

[Anatole Kuragin]

What do you find scummy about my posts TTH?

[Flubbernugget]

Gd I'm terrible at ice breakers but I can't fix that by bitching about it.

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

GreyICE did what I saw and still see as the most bombastically scummy thing in the game so far and it's being completely ignored because he replaced out, and his replacement hasn't touched on it once. I think that's shady as fuck.

Flubber, put the spotlight on me please. I will answer whatever you want - I find it weird that you're trying to steer the discussion without actually "engaging" me.

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

How come GreyICE's vote was shit, but BBT's sheeping of it was okay?

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

Rufflig -

Give final reads, too.

That's something pro-Town you could do.

Would you do me a favor, Wake88? Pressure Csareo into making a proper reads list, too. Csareo's BBT and x are scum and everyone else is null/town should not be allowed to stand as a reads list.

Can we lynch BBT pls. And then put the spotlight on AK?

Lynch BBT? No thanks. However, I'm up for shining some light on Anatole Kuragin. I'd love to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Why can't you put pressure on Csareo or me yourself? What do YOU have to say on the subject?

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

1) Was BBT scum or town in Chosen mafia?

2) What happened to your Ruffling suspicions? I came away from your ISO last night wondering why you hadn't voted him all game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

AK, can you elaborate on why you think both wagons are on town?

Would you not have expected one of the lynches to have been pushed through by now if that was the case?

I don't know why TTH is saying I have referred to my own meta. Because I haven't.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

BBT made lots of bad votes. He wasn't deliberately dishonest and he continued doing it after the spotlight was on him - that doesn't strike me as scum dropping convenient votes to get wagons started, it strikes me as an overzealous, overreactive nub honestly. This play-style has been consistent of him all game. GreyICE did one scummy as fuck thing then completely dropped off when called on it.

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

I don't understand, what changed since two posts ago?

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

Am I "him" here? If you find something I'm doing scummy or deserving of more attention I figured you'd have a reason why or something in particular that requires a "spotlight?" So what is it?

[Green Crayons]

@Anatole:

How was GreyICE's LAL push scum motivated, particularly in light of Flubber's observation in Post 202: "But that's the thing. It's so easy for someone to just say "nuh-uh" and nothing would have really cemented into Dougal. Which is exactly what happened btw."

Like, I get how it's anti-town, but why would scum push a clearly verifiable misrep/lie about another game setup as the basis to vote/start a wagon push?

[Anatole Kuragin]

AK, can you elaborate on why you think both wagons are on town?

Would you not have expected one of the lynches to have been pushed through by now if that was the case?

I don't know why TTH is saying I have referred to my own meta. Because I haven't.

I think there are enough cautious players in this game that the two wagons could be both town. Two DPs from now and we have two wagons like this it may mean something. Day 1, mafia are fishing for towncred and trying to avoid doing anything loud and stupid. If they know the two most likely lynches are mislynches they're probably sitting back sipping mai-tais waiting for some idiot like Boonskies to drop the hammer. Why would they rush?

[Green Crayons]

BTW I appreciate the responses to my questions.

*tear*

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think there are enough cautious players in this game that the two wagons could be both town. Two DPs from now and we have two wagons like this it may mean something. Day 1, mafia are fishing for towncred and trying to avoid doing anything loud and stupid. If they know the two most likely lynches are mislynches they're probably sitting back sipping mai-tais waiting for some idiot like Boonskies to drop the hammer. Why would they rush?

Hmm, OK. That makes sense. Someone also stated earlier that scum will be unwilling to move votes so as to avoid garnering unwanted attention and I agree with that also.

I just don't see any other wagons forming though.

Other than GreyICE, who are your biggest scum-reads?

[massive]

@Wake88, that's what has me off also. Obviously you would have to acknowledge flubber contributed somewhat around that of massive, who has half of flubbers posts, yet massive, the one associating himself with BBT, is being town read by BBT?

This is ludicrous. The only way I'm "associating myself" with BBT is because we're both voting for you.

#1. BBT Flips Scum
- I'll be NK'd, to stop a tunnel on players participating on my wagon
- They'll leave me alive as they think I'll be easy to mislynch (and they would be right)
They'll either kill a townie or mafia member who was also on my wagon to clear the others of suspicion

Why on earth would scum kill scum? And, are you sure that they'll either kill you, leave you alone, or kill someone else?

I still don't think BBT or Csareo have done anything that elevates them past misguided townies. Those are strictly deadline hammers for me and nothing else.

You made your comment on why you think BBT is town, can you comment on the case on Csareo and why you townread him?

[TellTaleHeart]

@Anatole:

It's less of a "I find (such and such)

individual

posts scummy" and more of "I find the pattern your activity makes scummy."

So far this game, you very much like to stick to facts and point out obviously bad arguments (criticizing BBT's "scum slip" argument comes to mind). This isn't scummy in and of itself, but then I feel like with the people you

do

push, your analysis is on a very superficial level. Take GreyICE.
I went and took a look at GreyICE's previous games to see if he actually does tend to flake out as scum and the one I found was this one Sleepy Hollow. He seemed plenty active in that game as scum. I also think he could have recovered from the gaffe since, at least as far as I recall, plenty of people (myself included) were ready to forgive him for it.

[Flubbernugget]

Also restating my scum read on BBT because I already typed it up:

BBT was scummy for sheeping GreyICE, and immediately hopping off the vote when it went nowhere. Everything else he's done has been incredibly reactionary, and his major defense of it boils down to "that's just my meta," when it says in his

fucking sig of all places

that meta arguments are full of shit. Seems like desperate scum not knowing how to defend his actions. Oh and I feel he's active lurking by making no other contributions in the last few pages than saying I should be lynched for active lurking.

No. First, I would have had to stay on the wagon a little longer to see if it was going anywhere. Secondly, I trusted someone else's post without checking up on it, that was a mistake on my part. I unvoted after making said mistake, I fail to see the problem.

The wagon was shit whether or not AK lied. As far as I am concerned,

you sheeped a straw grasp

Reactionary is my play-style. It has nothing to do with meta. It's how I play.

I kinda thought how somebody plays

was

meta.

If you could quote me saying 'that's just my meta' I'll hammer myself and walk away from this site for good. I know I would never say that.

"That's just my

playstyle

meta.

I'm actively lurking. Jesus Christ, that's fucking rich.

"I can't refute that my posting is about 10% productive, 30% fluff, and 60% repetition."

Is pursuing your lynch contributing? Is questioning people's reads contributing? Is engaging in discussion on the current issues contributing? Is answering people's questions contributing? I think you will find the answer to all of these is yes and that's what I have been doing over the last few pages. Whilst you have actually been lurking.

*Checks wagons*
*Checks your case on me*

Yeah it's contributing in the same way spitting in a cake batter is adding to the recipe.

It's funny how you come in and post once you get mentioned for lurking though. Good job.[/quote]

It's funny how I actually was responding to a post directed at me before the active lurking accusations. It's also funny how I never felt the need to defend myself as active lurking. It's also funny that even though I was lurking, it couldn't have been active because I wasn't posting for about 10 or so pages.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Green Crayons:

I still think BBT is likely scum. I had doubts a while ago and tried to make myself happy with a townread on him, but failed for a few reasons. There's

still

the neighbor meta and I absolutely hate the Csareo vote. The whole "reactive is my meta" isn't doing much for me either since that was his go-to line when I called him out on it in Chosen mafia.

See, this is what makes me think you're town. You keep referring to neighbourhood meta as one of your reasons for thinking I am scum. If you were scum, you would know you're pretty much setting yourself up to be lynched D2 after I flip town.

I just don't understand there being two townies in a neighbourhood. Why not just use Masons.

I haven't referred to my meta once. I am a reactive player, it's as simple as that. It really isn't alignment indicative.

[Flubbernugget]

@wake, Anatole:

you two, along with Jagged, are the only players who aren't voting for either Csareo or BBT. I'm curious as to your thoughts about both wagons, and why your vote is where it is (Anatole on Jagged (replacing GreyICE), and wake on nobody, as of last VC).

BBT made lots of bad votes. He wasn't deliberately dishonest and he continued doing it after the spotlight was on him - that doesn't strike me as scum dropping convenient votes to get wagons started, it strikes me as an overzealous, overreactive nub honestly. This play-style has been consistent of him all game. GreyICE did one scummy as fuck thing then completely dropped off when called on it.

What about the gamestate do you see changing since your last set of posts here?

I don't understand, what changed since two posts ago?

Since 701. There's about a 300 post interval between that post and your next post.

Well what exactly are we supposed to ask him about it? "Hey, you scum bro?"

Am I "him" here? If you find something I'm doing scummy or deserving of more attention I figured you'd have a reason why or something in particular that requires a "spotlight?" So what is it?

I have no means of getting additional information in reference to GreyICE's gaffe but I'm assuming by the way you speak of it there is a way. Could you enlighten me here?

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

How was GreyICE's LAL push scum motivated, particularly in light of Flubber's observation in Post 202: "But that's the thing. It's so easy for someone to just say "nuh-uh" and nothing would have really cemented into Dougal. Which is exactly what happened btw."

Like, I get how it's anti-town, but why would scum push a clearly verifiable misrep/lie about another game setup as the basis to vote/start a wagon push?

I don't know, why would town do it? He got at least two? people to just go along with it. It really came off badly that he skirted off afterwards instead of explaining his thought process. I just wanted to know how that happened and in asking greyice about it, knowing his thought process could have been indicative either way. Now we just have a replacement who is going to act like it never happened and the read on that slot is instantly gone for everyone.