NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I was looking forward to this game for quite a while.

VOTE: MC Maracabd

I'll give Cabd one page to obvtown himself.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, can we make a truce until day 3? Best friends: neither of us suspects the other until day 3, we don't kill each other until day 3 if scum (or at least fight hard for an alternate kill if they really want to kill our slots that badly), we don't play dirty with power roles until day 3. I think it will be most to our benefit if we are both town, but if one of us is scum, I think it will work to the townie's benefit. Do you agree?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Good catch. Are Nacho-Thor town or am I doing this with a buddy?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Try again.

Okay,

Unvote

VOTE: Maracabd

Brian Skies is town.

Can you link me to the game that you played with Brian?

geists is town.

Why?

F16 is town.

This I agree with. This is probably one of the few games I obvtowned during RVS.

Generic is town.

Why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Cephrir, agreed on Giests although the post that seemed genuinely at ease to me was the post after you townread them. Not sure about Generic yet. I read the Cash Cabd game before and I agree, both with his reaction sounding like he was trying too hard and it not fitting in with his scum-meta. We can discuss specifics later on.

Tammy seems disappointed in drawing scum. Let's lynch Tammy.

VOTE: Tammy

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So, the first person to correctly guess what I imagine empires reaction was when he saw what random.org assigned me gets a special super secret^tm prize.

I'd appreciate the guesses in gifs by the way!

VOTE: casso king of the seals

Two quote stripers is not better than one:(

Would this be accurate?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You still mad at me over big brother?
So I have to ask, is that a serious vote or should I not bother asking your reason for it?

Not right now.

Since that made me laugh, I'm forgiving the earlier slight of voting me and awarding you with the awesome prize of being my town buddy! Don't you feel special?

Best prize ever! I am liking you already.

@F-16 It had never clicked that you were in the hunterxhunterx game until I looked up the link to that truce offer.

No one from that game remembers me. I lurked too much. No way I would forget your meta-dive on Gammagooey though.

Brian's entrance bothers me too.

What about it bothered you?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am feeling pretty good about Cabd being town, and to a lesser extent Geists, Tammy, and Cephrir.

Fair warning, I am going to gatecrash all the in-thread Mason parties and Tammy is going to be my best buddy that I bring along.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am not done reading Xenoblade or 165.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ffery, what are your reads on Cabd, Brian, and Pitoli?

Tammy, Brian is not a new player. How did you get that impression?

Generic, can you explain your townread on Geists and Tammy?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, he has still played quite a few games though.

Cabd, I'd much rather collect data now and discuss my results later so I still want answers to my questions from the people I asked.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ffery, what are your reads on Cabd, Brian, and Pitoli?

I feel like she and nati have telegraphed those somewhat already, and I'm surprised you had to ask.

I did see them telegraphing it but something was off about the way ffery didn't spend time sorting you out so I wanted to probe further. I like the response though and it was similar to how I felt as well (knowing you had a good scumgame but still feeling that you were town without any paranoia - which is unusual).

Awkward entrances are not a scum tell for Brian. Nor are they a town tell. I'll take my time to form a read on Brian. From what I remember in a recent meta dive you also badly misread him not too long ago in a game.

Pitoli has slow, tentative starts in mafia from what I've seen. She has a huge run of town games at MS. I was one of the players in her scum game. I tried to apply her scum meta in the Walking Dead game and came away with an erroneous scum read. I went after her at the start of day 2 shortly before she replaced out. IIRC Metal Sonic replaced her, and was lynched a few days later. I'd gone back and forth on that slot since day 1, but if memory serves didn't vote MS on the day he was lynched.

These make sense. Although my off-read on Brian was mostly based on in-game actions as opposed to meta which indicated he was town. I am unsure on Pitoli since I don't get the same obvtown vibes from Micro 252 yet.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16 I skipped his entire posts for now.

That's not very nice!

Cephrir, what didn't you like about Tammy? Did you play with her before?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

More specifically, what about find off about 69?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

The Tammy read relates to a reaction test I gave and her genuine frustration over it rather than to try and go with the flow gave me the initial town read I have.
Heists is a gut read based on a smart opening which when lightly challenged he has been calm and consistent on tone. And there are glimpses of behind the scenes work being done for the game. Intriguing slot, so I townread them.

I am feeling pretty good about Cabd being town, and to a lesser extent Geists, Tammy, and Cephrir. Fair warning, I am going to gatecrash all the in-thread Mason parties and Tammy is going to be my best buddy that I bring along.

Why are you feeling good about these three f16?

All of them are mostly based on gut.

MC Maraca

: Cabd's posts just felt like town. Marangal's latest posts are helping to firm up my read more.

Geists

: I liked Nat's reaction to Cephrir's townread on him. I also thought that ffery waffling on her read on me was townish, and I like that we are on the same page regarding Cabd.

Cephrir

: I felt in sync with Cephrir for the most part. His initial scumread on Brian followed shortly with a realization that this was dissimilar to his scumgame in Cash Cabd seemed genuine.

Tammy

: Tammy's posts felt natural and unforced. Her demeanor reminded me of Mini 1472 but not to the same extent. I will probably go more in-depth once we generate more information in this game.

What didn't you like about Geists's 219?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Generic can go in my townpile as well. The objections to the post were the same that I would have had if I didn't know who wrote it.

Tammy, how are your reads looking at the moment?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I have a few things I want to discuss with geists/casso when you are finished.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Actually, I'd rather wait.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, here's what I thought:

Spoiler: ffery

I see some parallel’s to Buzzword although with a lot of major differences:
Firstly, Nacho in Buzzword went up against Orc because your slot (squared) did. He immediately dropped suspicion on Orc once he returned from a brief period of inactivity – the scum motivation clearly being he didn’t want to go against you. Here on the other hand, you indicated that Brian suspicion is unjustified – or at least, that is the implicit vibe I received from you. Tammy opposed the push as well. Assuming she is town, Nacho as scum would be pushing a player that could alienate his biggest threats – this is something I haven’t seen a parallel with in Buzzword. Let’s say he wants to push the Brian lynch, who will help him? Not you, Tammy, or even Cephrir who despite saying that Brian was trying too hard now has a townread on him. Probably not Pitoli who he is voting. Perhaps he expected me to help but I made it clear I am not sure either way about Brian. So, I am not seeing the same parallel w.r.t Brian and Orc. What did I miss?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, makes sense. I'll see how further interactions develop.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tammy, glad you are here. I thought you left me hanging after you said we could be best buddies

I want to talk about Generic. I had a townread on him based on his push of Geists but ffery's point about him being too agreeable resonated with me quite a bit. I went back through BB:HoH to see if he was too agreeable there and I noticed that he was during the last day. I am not sure if you followed it after you got nk'ed. Generic as scum was agreeing with everything Toogeloo and I said, saying we had good points, and consistently going back and forth on us although he stayed with Toog-town, me-scum for the most part except the end. I also read the VisCon:Wingate Mansion which you played where he was town. His initial attack on Marangal followed by his defense when Nacho made a case on him looked a lot different from his backing off here which has me concerned.

Do you have a read on Generic yet? If so, what?

Generic, I'd like to know your current read on Geists and your read on MC Maraca.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

About Brian, I'll just wait to see what content he provides.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Generic, read on Casso would be cool as well.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Generic, read on Casso would be cool as well.

And links to games you played with Natirasha.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Oh you lot make me chuckle.

Someone I'm voting for plants a seed of suspicion about me to discredit my issue with them and you run with it.

For an answer to how 'agreeable' with ffery I am, look where my vote STILL sits. Just because I thought they had competently answered my concern doesn't mean they negate the other head washing their hands of the issue and ffery stalling for time with me.

And the point I made about similar mindsets wasn't agreeability (is that a compound word?) but a marker that I'm not gonna have any of you guys hand wave me away with a "you just aren't used to the way ffery posts".

Do don't start bullshitting me please with that cos I make my own reads and am not gonna have any of you dismiss others on meta.

Oh and it didn't go unnoticed that ffery claimed ignorance of her meta even though she initially tried to use it as an excuse at me. I just don't volunteer EVERYTHING I'm using in my analysi.

But I am interested in the koreanbbq and geists link. I will have to look back at the interactions but one or two felt forced to me.

What's your take on koreanBBQ?

I didn't buy your initial argument n Geists because I thought it made sense for ffery to be paranoid of GIF. In Newbie 1429 (I replaced in and read the game after GIF replaced out), GIF replaced Scumbag 101 and turned around a scum-slot that was being universally townread into most players biggest townread (including ffery's). Scum later went on to win the game. While I thought that your argument made sense coming from someone who was unaware of that game, looking through the game shows that the post you are saying is scummy is null at worst. The way the post was phrased makes it look scummy but based on past history, it makes perfect sense. And meta is a useful tool for scumhunting, it hardly counts as "handwaving away" arguments. What did you think of Geists attack on Casso?

I haven't sorted KoreanBBQ yet so they are null.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I liked the attack because it put casso on the spot. What I didn't like was the speed at which it broke down and they backed off.

I don't know an awful lot about Thor, but I do know people like nacho need to be kept cornered if you have a suspicion to ensure they don't climb back into the ascendency. But since you like geists play so far I'm interested to know what you thought about how they handled it.

I feel pretty good about Geists being town. I read a lot ffery's games and a strong attack on Nacho based on meta is outside the range of behaviors I would expect from her as scum even accounting for a constantly improving scum-play. Backing off for a while fits in with ffery's town meta as well. In any case, they didn't permanently back off, they said their read was still strong.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So, far I am confident in two strong townreads: Tammy and Geists. I am leaning town on Mara-Cabd, and Cephrir but not as strongly. Everyone else is in the "Yet to be sorted" pile.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I haven't seen a single game where you attacked Nacho as scum to the extent you have here and with the confidence you showed here. I did have an initial townread on you which was shaky and I did question you to see if it would firm up. The Nacho-attack was completely outside of what I would expect you to do as scum.

MC Maraca, can you explain your townreads on Brian and GM?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F16, a question for you.

Why offer the truce on casso and then barely get three days into day 1 before breaking that? Was that to bring nachos guard down and not focus any attention on you so you can catch him off guard?
It's puzzling since you were the one to offer the truce in the first place.

Where did I break it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah. Buzzword was a game where Nacho was scum. I said that I saw a few parallels but showed how they were different. It was basically an implicit defense so I have no idea how you interpreted it as an attack.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Firstly, Nacho in Buzzword went up against Orc because your slot (squared) did. He immediately dropped suspicion on Orc once he returned from a brief period of inactivity – the scum motivation clearly being he didn’t want to go against you. Here on the other hand, you indicated that Brian suspicion is unjustified – or at least, that is the implicit vibe I received from you. Tammy opposed the push as well. Assuming she is town, Nacho as scum would be pushing a player that could alienate his biggest threats – this is something I haven’t seen a parallel with in Buzzword. Let’s say he wants to push the Brian lynch, who will help him? Not you, Tammy, or even Cephrir who despite saying that Brian was trying too hard now has a townread on him. Probably not Pitoli who he is voting. Perhaps he expected me to help but I made it clear I am not sure either way about Brian. So, I am not seeing the same parallel w.r.t Brian and Orc. What did I miss?

This is how you make an argument, people.

I don't get it. Do you agree with it? Your vote doesn't make sense based on this statement.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, no that was totally a defense. While I agree with what F-16 said about the Buzzword game and Nacho's early stance on orcinus being shaped by mine, I laid out why I thought he was bringing the wrong lesson from that game given my actual point about orcinus, which was that there was precious little room for mislynches in that game. And Nacho wound up targeting two other of my townreads that day.

So you are saying that his (unjustified) focus on Brian was because Brian was one of the few people he thought he could mislynch?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It's why I haven't commented negatively on f16s proposal to nacho of the truce cos for me

he's one of those players that becomes apparent scum as time goes on

. How good is Thor? Experienced scum player? Cos it's two mindsets I'm dealing with.

Thor is a good scum player as well. I agree with the bolded part. I was thinking about this game and I came up with a better strategy than a truce for the future.

1) Call Nacho a "Nacho" read Day 1.
2) Hope he does amazingly pro-town things like leading lynches on scum.
3) Check if ffery is in the game. If she is likely town, ask her to sort Nacho for you.
4) If Nacho is in hydra with someone other than Thor, read his partner.
5) If he is in a hydra with Thor, follow instruction under the spoiler:

Spoiler:

1) Call Thor a "Thor" read Day 1
...

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pieguyn, can you explain your townread on GoodMorning?

Is your read on BROseidon based on past games or purely based on what hapenned in game?

Also, in general, when you point out specific posts and call people town, is your read based mostly on that post, or is there more behind it? Specifically I am talking about Tammy, BRO, and Generic.

With regard to 415, what do you mean, "huh I'm seeing what you all are about Generic - in fast and furious he seemed pretty adamant about getting Telo lynched"? Can you elaborate? Because I was scumreading Generic at that point while you townread him.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pieguyn, I disagree with your read on GoodMorning. How does being "upfront about questioning stuff she disagrees with" necessarily town? I find it just as likely scum would question stuff to look like town. I also don't find "holding true to her beliefs" a strong reason to read her as town.

Also, why did you like her stance of saying that at least two of me, Generic, Geists, and Brian are not town? You seem to have put Geists as town, me and Generic as probably town, and Brian as null which is quite far off from her stance.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Sakura, I accused Generic because his agreeable tone reminded me of a recent game we completed together where he was scum. I also felt that it was different from a push he made in a game where he was town. It was specific to him.

What of Thor's post did you find townish?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, do you have strong reads yet? If so, who?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I didn't think I would fall for it because I can recognize Nacho's posts but oh, well. I'll blame it on stress because I am studying for a midterm tomorrow and I keep checking this thread when I really shouldn't.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

DOMO, can you explain your scumread on KoreanBBQ and subsequent reversal? It seemed like you accused them initially of making a lot of posts with little content and then unvoted when they said they saw you outing yourself in the large game signup. Did you feel that KBBQ's subsequent posts were townish? Did it have anything to do with the wagon forming on them. Take me through your whole thought process for the suspicion and the unvote.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

DOMO, can you link me to a couple of scum games of yours?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think he looks town - I want to make sure that what he is doing here isn't something that he can easily fake as scum. What are your thoughts on DOMO?

Pedit: Thanks.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pieguyn and Talah, can you explain your reservations about Geists?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

mostly Tammy's points. also I find it kind of odd how she seemed excited I was in this game and hasn't interacted with me at all since then. I'd think there'd at least be some form of interaction even if it wasn't serious or game-related.

if it was just me I'd probably write it off as paranoia but the fact that other people are starting to see similar things makes me a bit worried for the moment

do you have any reservations on her?

The part about interactions is a good point. The biggest towntell to me was the push on Nacho. If ffery did it as scum, this would be a first. Also, the confidence in the push I find unlikely to come from scum. I have a few reservations but I'd rather wait to post them if they become relevant.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Pie, you didn't initiate interactions with them either. Why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nat, what is your read on MafiaSSK? MafiaSSK, same question. From what I gathered, you two played a lot of games together.

Cephrir, in your 961, you say that I am "needling" Pieguyn over his read on GoodMorning which implies a negative tone based on your choice of word "needling." On the other hand, earlier in the post, you say you were glad that I objected to Pieguyn's read of GoodMorning. Why a negative tone towards something that you were glad happened?

In all the back-and-forth's I think Roflcopter is slipping through the gaps. I find him scummy. It boils down to the fact that Rofl is much more involved and passionate about the game as town than as scum. Information through lots of posts is good and pro-town. It is a natural scum-move to feign tiredness and groan at the massive amount of content that was generated. This especially holds true for players like Rofl who strongly prefer playing town to scum. There are a few others that are doing this but Rofl sticks out. I'll get back to this after reviewing Rofl's meta when I find a block of time.

VOTE: Roflcopter

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Sure, I'd love to hear it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ohi

@F-16:

is SC one of the players you're referring to who are doing that? cause it seems like exactly what you said about rofl 0.0 I'm not too sure considering Varsoon hasn't posted at all, compared to rofl who's at least made a few posts to demonstrate this, but it could still fit under the category of slipping through the gaps. especially since it's a hydra, I get the feeling if Varsoon prefers town it could account for his disappearance

Yeah. I am unaware of whether he prefers town or scum. The other players I am referring to were Pitoli (for whom it seems to be a null-tell based on my last game with her), Cephrir (who said he was busy in the signup thread so it is likely null), GoodMorning (I still have my suspicions), and Desperado (but he is a competent scum player, so I doubt lurking is a scumtell for him).

Do you have past experience with either head of Stuffed Crust? How would you characterize their play with regard to activity levels as town/scum?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Based on my reading of NY159: Rust, I am thinking DOMO could be scum - or at least, I am not positive he is town. I'm going to finish a few other games before I post my conclusions.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Cabd, I have been putting plenty of effort into the game whenever I find time. I just haven't posted all of my thoughts into the thread. I also don't have any very strong reads yet other than Tammy being town. The rest are all based on gut and I am not really sure of any of them. I am also trying to keep the post count low and take a more laid back approach considering a lot of noise in the thread. I think this would help me focus on developing good reads while not getting dragged into pointless, time consuming, non-alignment indicative debates. If you want an example, see the mutual tunnels between me and Brian in Mentor and Mentee, and between me and Bulbazak in There is no Doctor. But if you want to talk about anything, I'm here.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

My problem is that most of the town looking players are very good players (Cephrir, Pieguyn, Giests). I wouldn't put it past any of them to be capable of getting me to townread them as scum so I am not as complacent as I would be if I had townreads on players of average skill.

NY159: Rust – Things of note are the frequent use of language where he acts like he is forced to do stuff like “

If I were to pick a scum read based on my first skim through the thread, I'd say BC is looking pretty bad with zab showing up as scum, he tires very hard to distance himself from zab.

” DOMO’s ISO breakdown contain almost entirely information instead of analysis. He also postures with statements like “

I can move him into scum camp if these questions are answered unfavourably for him.

” He consistently complains about the thread moving faster than his other game which seems like an implicit excuse for inactivity stemming from guilt due to the lack of content. Some of his posts like 1080 come across as fake and a little too certain about his reads. The way he defends himself in 1261 is interesting by saying “

I don't see why that's scummy.

” Rev uses WIFOM in 1274 while admitting his mistakes “

But I can't blame you guys for giving me heat for it.

” He also again makes excuses for his actions saying “

Why am I still awake

”. Rev can be quite devious as shown in 1760 where he thanks scum for killing a player who had a large ISO to read making it easier for him to catch up. TheReverend can fake paranoia very well as evidenced by 1760 where he throws in caveats for his townreads by saying “

unless bussing

” or “

unless very good at playing scum.

” He undermines his reads several times as shown in 1770, “

I could be wrong, but I am not in any hurry to lynch him.

” He also postures a lot by making statements like “

Yeah I'm not gonna be on the PH wagon any time soon

” in essence declaring what he may or may not do. In 1806, he spends quite a while justifying his push rather than explain why his target is scummy. This shows that he is very concerned with how his pushes looks as opposed to actually finding scum and pushing them.

I am not sure what I found scummy in this game based on this. I must have made a mistake. I am going to look through his town games to come to some sort of conclusion.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You were the only damn town player in the Oz game. It was like a crash course in DOMO-reading.

Unfortunately I misread your role as townish and you were scummish, although friendly to me. I think the only time I recall you being proper scum was in hydra with bulba, and it was him I was able to read. I might have problems with you when you're scum.

In an ordinary game I would have been horribly scummish in a burn it out root and branch way. In that game, I realized before the end of day 1 that for most players, their wincon would probably get easier if I recruited them. I felt bad for the players I was leaving to their own devices.

Then I found out that I could make the wincon of some players I didn't recruit easier, too, by recruiting their enemies.

I would never have expected that being cult leader would feel like such a townish role. And I doubt it will seem very townish if I ever draw it again. Oz was pretty unique.

This would have been a nightmarish player list to draw scum in. Worse than Xenoblade because everyone in this player list has seen my town game multiple times and several of them have seen my scum game as well. I'd still be off in a corner crying about it.

Anyway. Given our past games I expected you'd find me calling you town a bit troubling, but not fly-into-the-rafters alarming. Your reaction hit the right notes.

Cabd, your thoughts?

Wanted to comment on this as well. DOMO is perfectly capable of faking paranoia as scum even though he tends to be paranoid as town. So, the "reaction," I see it as null.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, what is your read on Geists considering their case on you? Do you think they are town and wrong, or are they scum for it?

Town and wrong. Pushing me is one of the most reliable town tells ffery has, and this feels like a decent push.

Can you give examples where you were both town and ffery was wrong about you? I want to compare.

I'm not sure these examples exist. Ffery and I are hitting a bit of an uncharted territory in our relationship.

Okay. And what are those "waves crashing on the shore" that you picked up while missing the "ripples?" Which players were you referring to?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am poking around because your case and Nacho's responses are so vague it is taking me a while to understand it and verify its accuracy. I can see the motivation for making a case vague as you explained in your Power of Labels thread. I understand that part of it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate what you are saying but you are doing it too well. Your current case crosses the boundary into being mostly incomprehensible to me. As you said in the same thread, letting someone get away with being so vague can be dangerous. I am trying to get as close as I can so I can reverse-engineer what you are talking about without actually asking you to reveal anything that you don't want to reveal. I am sorry for crossing the line accidentally, but I am putting in quite of bit of care to not do it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

There are a number of other aspects of my suspicions you could focus on and delve into all the detail you like.

Okay then. Help me though whichever parts you feel comfortable with.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

I'll let this slide.

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

Who has he tried to curry favor with and where?

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

Why would Nacho as scum have reason to believe that this will take attention away from him as opposed to increase attention through people questioning him about the Pitoli vote?

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

He did the same to Buldermar in Hunterx so just the act of it is null. But I can agree that doing it after you suspected him doesn't feel right.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

Brian came into the game with a hard edge. That's unique in the games I've played with him. You interacted with him, but didn't seem curious about the hard edge in his posting.

I agree that it is unique based on my meta of Brian. He never entered a game that way so I can understand why Nacho not questioning him on it could be suspicious.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

Agree about Thor.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

This is good too.

Maybe not, but it also meant you missed a ton of subtext around other players' reactions. That's a degree of not thinking like I'm thinking that scares me.

I have no clue what this means.

I flew by one, got FoSed for it, went back, over-estimated what it was about, tested that, and eventually had a working hypothesis. That was one ripple of many. You didn't react to any of that.

Without regards to a specific crumb, why would you expect Nacho to pick up crumbs as town as opposed to scum? I am assuming this is referring to breadcrumbs about roles unless you are using an entirely different definition of "crumbs." Whose FOS on you are referring to? Is your "working hypothesis" something you plan to reveal during the course of this game?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I was just about to say stuff made a lot more sense but you had to spoil me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I thought about it and I don't think it is a good idea. I read a lot more into it than you give me credit for. I'll explain it at endgame/site chat after the game ends if you want but I'd rather not now. I think scum would be in a WIFOM position right now and I like it. I get why you are scumreading me (or are pretending to do so if scum) but you are off-base partly because I don't look for PR claims as town - attitudinal or otherwise.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I wouldn't put it past you to do it as scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Anyone from Xenogears who didn't catch it deserves scrutiny, though.

Why do you expect town to "catch it?" From experience, I find town are a lot more oblivious to PR claims although it depends on the player.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I haven't read the entire game. I have a siginificant backlog of games that I need to meta and I am short on time.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I know. I checked it after I read ffery's post and caught your crumb. That's what I was referring to.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You think Nacho caught it and hid the fact that he caught it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am poking around because your case and Nacho's responses are so vague it is taking me a while to understand it and verify its accuracy. I can see the motivation for making a case vague as you explained in your Power of Labels thread. I understand that part of it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate what you are saying but you are doing it too well. Your current case crosses the boundary into being mostly incomprehensible to me. As you said in the same thread, letting someone get away with being so vague can be dangerous. I am trying to get as close as I can so I can reverse-engineer what you are talking about without actually asking you to reveal anything that you don't want to reveal. I am sorry for crossing the line accidentally, but I am putting in quite of bit of care to not do it.

What's your working hypothesis, then, regarding our alignments?

I had you as town for the initial push on Nacho. I started to have reservations as time went by and you didn't continue the push or attempt to persuade others to vote your way. I think considering the playerlist, you would definitely have the pull to make a lynch of your choice happen so the lack of it worried me but that could also be explained by Nacho not posting in the thread since then. Your subsequent case and push makes me pretty certain that you are town. I have enough doubt about King Casso that I am wondering whether I ended up making a deal with the devil. I think regardless of whether I am convinced by your case, I am leaning towards sheeping you just based on your reputation because I find it hard to believe that you would be wrong. Is that something that you find desirable? How certain are you?

So, you and Tammy town. Everybody else is in the "yet to be sorted" pile. Same reads as a while ago but I am far more certain in these reads right now.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I didn't. I didn't find it unusual for you to unvote on a suspect to give them more breathing room.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why the unvote then?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

No. This is probably the first time. I'd usually have an extensive list of reads.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Why the unvote then?

Because I was seeing all sorts of flashes of sincerity in his replies and have a strong sense that he was meeting me more than halfway in my sorting efforts. The sincerity could mostly be about stuff that isn't alignment indicative. But he recently beat me in a quick (almost chat-mafia speed) offsite vengeful game during one of MS' lengthy downtimes. Part of my misread was due to the components of his townread on me. I don't think he'd go there (or anywhere similar to there) again so soon as scum. But, he might.

I'm ambivalent.

Noted. What are the rest of your reads looking like?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Anyone from Xenogears who didn't catch it deserves scrutiny, though.

Why do you expect town to "catch it?" From experience, I find town are a lot more oblivious to PR claims although it depends on the player.

49 was pretty explicit

I think I am missing something. Why wouldn't scum who played the gears game catch the same thing?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

If I were scum reading that, I would try to ignore it as much as possible, townread the two people masoning for other reasons, then shoot it at night in the midgame before they're revealed. Especially since they might have also picked up that I crumbed mason-bodyguard, not just mason, so they'd assume I might die protecting a target anyways.

That's the point; anyone who didn't phone in on it seems like they were trying to ignore it b/c it was fairly explicit.

And why would the optimal response from town who caught the crumb be any different? Wouldn't they also townread the two players for other reasons and leave it be? It is suboptimal to say anything about the crumb. What exactly do you mean "phone in on it?"

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

On the other, DOMO feels really genuine in response.

Gurl lookit dat 180

Why is this suspicious? StuffedCrust's last few posts feel pretty townish to me including the 180. Why are scum more likely to do 180s? Is there anything about this particular 180 you found more likely to come from town than scum?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Varsoon, exactly what made you change your read of DOMO?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

On the other, DOMO feels really genuine in response.

Gurl lookit dat 180

Why is this suspicious? StuffedCrust's last few posts feel pretty townish to me including the 180. Why are scum more likely to do 180s? Is there anything about this particular 180 you found more likely to come from town than scum?

It was really sudden for me. Plus he suddenly gave me a pass too for no reason. idgi

But why is there scum motivation in making sudden 180s? I feel that town are likely to do it too. I've been accused as town more than once for having sudden, sometimes jarring switches in reads and been annoyed at having to explain them. It isn't something I find scummy at all though it looks scummy on the surface.

Why are scum more likely to do 180s? Is there anything about this particular 180 you found more likely to come from town than scum?

What? I've been barking at him how my switch on SSK is a null tell because town naturally should have doubt in their reads etc, and now he does it it's suddenly a town tell? jfc.

Your 1551 and 1557 seemed very townish to me. I think it is natural to suspect people who are townreading you but not defending you because it gives them towncred when you flip town. I find that paranoia townish and made me think you are town. The fact that Varsoon said it makes sense if you are town is comforting. The posts he quoted in 1605 were a little different than what I expected, but I still see it unlikely for scum to reverse their read on you. If SC was scum, why not continue pushing your wagon? It is a healthy sized wagon with plenty of votes. I also think town are more likely than scum to want to work with others.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho, have you developed the full Nacho-reads-list yet (complete with "town+", "town" and "leftovers?"

Also, why Pitoli, or Muffin (Talah)?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Maraca, in hindsight I don't like your push on Tammy. You are presenting the goal as pro-town (Tammy looks obvtown after your push). But Tammy looks obvtown in many games even when not accused of being scum. The only thing your push did was discourage a competent town player from posting much which subtly eliminates a threat without having to nightkill her just by breaking her. Tammy is right that her FOS on you would likely be taken less seriously because you upset her and you come out looking good from the exchange for having done this "pro-town" thing of making Tammy look obvtown. Your push looks like it served a scum wincon much more than a town one. I miss Tammy's contributions to the game (she is the only one I have a mutual townread on so probably the only one I can work with at this point) and I am not happy with it. Your read on Rofl makes no sense. How does Rofl look town?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

pieguyn is actually worrying me some.

About this, I dislike Pieguyn's case on StuffedCrust but a lot of his other behavior and total proactiveness and persistent following of leads read town to me. Do you have a scum game of Pieguyn that you are comparing with?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What's the roflcoptor case? Is it exciting and does that wagon have any legs?

1060 but I am not as sure now since it seems like he is on the replacement block. I want to see what happens from here, whether he will post or be replaced.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

But, I find it odd that he hasn't buttonholed me so far. IME, he's been in a hurry to sort me.

From what I recall, he came into the game accusing you of being scum and wanting interactions with you and to discuss reads. What do you mean by "buttonholed?"

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Looking forward to seeing your thoughts Arthur. For starters, can you give me your reads on all the players you've played with before. You could ISO them and read in context for now if you don't want to read the entire game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Arthur, I generally townhunt much more than I scumhunt and try to catch scum through POE, so I am going to end up defending a lot more than attacking. My post about Tammy/Maraca was probably one of my most heartfelt ones in this game and I don't like the dismissal of it as whiteknighting.

I got the opposite impression from Pieguyn's posts. It felt as if he was scumhunting constantly right from the moment he replaced in. He came in, questioning Sakura, then moved onto DOMO, and then to StuffedCrust. He seemed to have plenty of cases and he listed quite a few scumreads in his reads list. Tell me how he has done 0 scunhunting.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ ffery and Nat, the vast majority of your reads have no reasons attached to them. The "text" beside the read is merely a statement of how strong it is, whose read it is, and how it developed. I was expecting an actual reads list with your reasons for those reads. Elaborate on

why

you have the reads you do would be much appreciated.

THIS IS NOT A SERIATIM LIST

Town

1. Tammy - p much strongest town read.

Why?

4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - lots of footnotes but we're here for now. Would like to hear what the point of the crumb gambit was.

Why town? This is where I disagree the strongest. I am unable to see the town motivation in their posting and Cabd gambits usually have an extremely pro-town motivation if he is town. I assume those footnotes will be revealed later.

5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Nati feels stronger about this read than ffery does, but both are pretty comfortable at this point.

I want to hear both of your reasons for this as well, especially Nat's.

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - unless GiF says otherwise.

I agree but why? I can understand the appeal to GIF though since he can apparently read Varsoon very well.

13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - this read could go stale fast, though. Right now, they're almost on a par with Tammy as far as ffery is concerned.

Why?

18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.

What was the reason for the initial read and why did it weaken now? I had the opposite reaction. I was unsure of his initial posts but I am leaning more towards him being town now.

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - both of us are happier with Nacho's posts over the last couple of days, particularly the strong flashes of sincerity. But, as ffery mentioned in an earlier post many of the subjects where sincerity shined through are alignment neutral. ffery maintains some caution.

Okay.

7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- we had pitoli in scumpile, but replace-out moves her/SAD up considerably. We really liked his opening. Should probably move him to top tier, but ffery wants more data first.

What about his opening did you like? I played with Arthur before and hydra'd with him once as town in Black Flag Nightless (although that was a really long time ago) and I didn't find his opening similar but it is likely he has a variety of openings as town. I am null on him right now.

11. BROseidon - we can see town and scum motivations for going along with the gambit, and feel like he's coasting a bit on the perceived boost in townread

Okay.

14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/

15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn actually. Nati would move her to not so town.

How so? And this is something you plan to say later, is Sakura scummy by herself, and how?

19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. Would consider moving him down a grouping.

Can you link the posts that gave you a scumread? I was reading through Ceph-games earlier and want to see if it matches with my results.

Not so Town

6. Generic - engagement, comments on game state seem meh to me. Will go with what Nati thinks.

Okay.

10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- for ~reasons~. Want to see how this develops.

12. Brian Skies - almost in not enough data, but his edgy tone concerns me. I can see it coming from a town place, maybe, kinda, but not convinced.

20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

Who would you lynch D1?

Null or Not enough data

REPLACEMENT

roflcopter

- ffery has one prior game, which was also fast moving. He was town. If he bitched about the thread speed and length, it certainly wasn't the bulk of his input.

17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. Still evaluating.

These look fine.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pie, are you basing your read on Sakura off of meta? If so, can you link a game where you felt she was less defensive in a 1v1? Was the purpose of your opening attack on Sakura to gauge her defensiveness and reaction to pressure? If so, what about her posts made you back off initially? Also, do you have any completed scum games of yours that you can link me to? I would also like to hear the reasons for your townread on Generic. Is it still based on 445?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Thanks. I'll look through them when I get a chance. I don't have an actual townread on Casso. I hoped that doing something like this would help me quell my paranoia of Nacho and allow us to work together but I am not blown away yet and feel now that it was probably a suboptimal move. I am not sure who I want to see lynched. I have townreads on Tammy and Geists, and I think you and StuffedCrust are very likely town although I'll use the meta to make absolutely sure. I am currently reading the argument between you and Varsoon in Touhou and I see a few parallels. I am not sure which of the remaining 15 players I want lynched. My townbloc formed much slower than I had hoped.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

VOTE: MC Maraca

Following Tammy's vote. I don't like any of the leading wagons, this one is much better. I think Stuffed and Pie are town.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Hey Stuffed, hop onto MC and make this a viable lynch.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Their gambits helped the scum wincon more. They don't deny it when I accused them of it. I don't like any of the leading wagons either.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

The only person "caught" in their Mason gambit was Nacho who you now believe to be town so that didn't get us anywhere. They didn't follow up on it either, you did. I find the reasoning for saying that people who played Xenogears not picking up on it = scum to be weak. The gambit on Tammy, I already talked about.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yoyo f-16 bro, I'mma let chu finish but your last few posts SUUUUUUUCCCKKKKKK.

How about you explain to me why Maraca is town, Pieguyn is scum, and the assorted other questions I left for you and ffery although those two are a priority.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Glad we agree on Pieguyn. I am trying to stay away from conflict as well after my battle with Bulb in that Micro game. My scumread on Maraca has nothing to do with any conflicts I might have with them although I am annoyed by their stunt which may have influenced my read. I'll rethink that issue although I still find them scummier than Stuffed and Pie. I am having trouble seeing who would be a better lynch today. What are your thoughts on who should be lynched today?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, a list of your reads would help.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also, calling it "fanning the flames" is a bit unfair considering you specifically asked for my reasons for pushing MC.

Sakura, can you explain your townreads on Maracabd, Casso, and Goodmorning?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I was most curious about those 4 since I am not townreading any of them.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

My vote is on Ceph.

Can you talk me through your scumread on Ceph? I read through an ISO where he was scum and am in the process of doing one where he was town. I think it would help if I get a springboard to base my meta-analysis of him.

At the very least it was distinctly uncharitable.

I found their gambit overall harmful. I am saying it like it is.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pie, I'll wait for Cephrir to answer to that. I specifically want to know why the switch from Pie-town to hopping onto the wagon.

Right now, I am most comfortable with Tammy, Pie, and Stuffed as town. We need to sort out who the best lynch is from here.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

Meh. You're not really doing ~awesome~ this game like I expected you might. Like you've yet to invite me to a meta dance, you've done one half asses meta report on anyone, and your "omg cabd is scum here's meta on his gambits and why this is a scum gambit" post seems to have gotten eaten by C:\dev\null so you can repost it.

To some extent, this game was a little distracting for me on the meta front because while I am halfway through reading someone's meta, something more critical catches my eye and I have to check

their

meta. I haven't finished with DOMO but the Stuffed/Pie wagons necessitated that I put DOMO aside and read through Touhou instead. It was the same when I was reading Ceph's meta which I had to put aside earlier.

If you are town, I wouldn't say you are doing awesome either. You are way off on your scumread of me, and I haven't been as impressed by your gambits (especially the second one) as I thought I would be. It also hasn't been as easy to work with you as I hoped it would be before the game started. I have posted a partial meta read on DOMO but I am the only one that has posted it. I haven't seen anything from your end.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tammy, do you see any parallels between Arthur's play here and in Black Flag Nightless?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Mara, there is no reason why both people in your "pairs" aren't town. I can see why you would say they wouldn't be scum together but I don't discount them being town together. I explained my read in sufficient depth. I am not certain that you are scum, you could potentially be a misguided townie that helped the scum.

@ Tammy, if you don't want to respond to MC, let's try and figure the rest of the game out. I am having trouble pegging Arthur as town or scum and I would like to hear your updated thoughts on Nacho in particular.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

helped the scum.

This ought to be good. Expand on this.

Based off your attacks, Tammy has been running at less than full steam, or at least, not as smoothly as she was in Empire's last game. The fact that you attacked her as a sort of reaction test shows that you know she would likely get upset. You intentionally wanted her to get upset so you could get a read or pretend to get one and move on. The ultimate effect of what you did was scum-sided although I am not fully sure if that was your initial motivation. Perhaps you actually thought as town that you could rile her up, develop a read and move on, with no effect to the gamestate. That brings me to the question: what exactly was your intent at the beginning. What was your ideal outcome?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tammy, do you see any parallels between Arthur's play here and in Black Flag Nightless?

Oh gosh. That game was so long ago and Arthur's meta has changed so much since then, and he's gone through more than one playstyle shift since then.

The last game we played together he barely did anything, got investigated and confirmed town, did a lot more of nothing until right before endgame, and then got lynched in LyLo because he wasn't doing enough even though he was confirmed town.

So, basically I'll need way more on Arthur until I can feel good one way or the other. But, even through the meta changes, one thing that has remained constant in how to read Arthur is to look at how he's reading other people and why.

I thought the major difference was in the way he approached his read on you. I remembered he initially came out aggressively pushing players going so far as to later admit that he was bs'ing reads upon an initial catchup. I felt it different from here although I think checking his more recent completed games would help.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

How did the Mason gambit help the scum wincon more? I realize that it didn't really go anywhere, but I don't see how it was scum beneficial.

It was neutral. The second one helped scum.

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

This pings. We haven't played that many games but I don't recall you being this passive about your scum reads and votes.

Then you should read through more of my town games to get a better baseline. I explained why I am having trouble nailing down scum through POE. There are just too many people and too many distractions.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Geists, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you are very quick to criticise and scumread anyone who attacks MC but you haven't said anything at all about Mara's attack. You say you are conflict averse but you haven't critisized the instigator of the conflict. You are merely pushing at anyone that calls them out. That doesn't seem genuine to me. It seems as though in your mind, MC can create as much conflict as they want but anyone that calls them out and scumreads them for creating that conflict is discredited or scumread which doesn't make any sense.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

on MC. I am not sure where to go from here.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Geists, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you are very quick to criticise and scumread anyone who attacks MC but you haven't said anything at all about Mara's attack. You say you are conflict averse but you haven't critisized the instigator of the conflict. You are merely pushing at anyone that calls them out. That doesn't seem genuine to me. It seems as though in your mind, MC can create as much conflict as they want but anyone that calls them out and scumreads them for creating that conflict is discredited or scumread which doesn't make any sense.

I do defend my townreads, but I'm not scumreading anyone who attacks MC. If I were, Tammy wouldn't be my strongest townread. Afaik, the only person I'm "attacking" about MC Maraca is you.

I talked about Mara's attack in my reply to your quotewall.

I said you were discrediting (Tammy) and attacking (me) players pushing MC.

I get your point about Mara having done it before. But from your POV as a conflict averse person who is considering replacing out, it would have made more sense to me if you called out Mara for instigating the conflict. Regardless of whether her motivation was scum-sided, the ultimate effect of their push helped scum more. Your priorities seem to be misplaced in that you are defending the instigator of the conflict from players that are calling them out. Why are you okay with Mara helping scum intentionally or accidentally while pushing at anyone that question her? That doesn't seem right. It seemed as though you pre-decided that you would be "on their side" in the event of a conflict. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Cabd is skilled enough as scum to fool you, so the lack of paranoia there is troubling as well.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I do think that reactions may be useful later on. I just don't like the way in which it was done.

MC's top scumread is me obviously.

Pedit: I'll keep that in mind.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Varsoon from Stuffed Crust is reminding me of Bork's Touhou game as well. I think he is town. I don't think it is necessarily scummy to assume that a push on them is scum motivated. It is basically OMGUS - which is null. I have not yet read his scumgames but based on in-game actions alone, I don't think he is scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This is obviously something scum-GiF can exploit easily

If that was true, you would've been mislynched everytime I was scum~
But have you seen that happen? Nope!
Wanna know why? Because pushing your mislynch as scum will screw me up majorly once the flip happen!
So yeah. It's not something that I can exploit as scum.

Clearly you haven't read Mafia Xenologue where Cabd claimed that The Irish Pope was scum, got him lynched D1, and got away with it. Not only that, he got Nacho to read him very strongly as town just based off of the WIFOM.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

KoreanBBQ, can you explain your scumread on Stuffed Crust?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Do you think F-16 might be scum here trying to get town cred if SC flips town?

No, if he flips town, it means my read was more accurate. AND I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF PEOPLE ACCUSING ME OF WHITEKNIGHTING AND ASSUMING THAT WHENEVER I AM RIGHT, IT COULD BE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT PERSON'S AFFILIATION AS OPPOSED TO ME USING MY SCUMHUNTING ABILITY TO FIGURE IT OUT. SO, CUT IT OUT.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also, it would mean that your read was wrong. But surely, the best move seems to be to go after players that defended him.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It happened to me more than once. I'd be happy to discuss and evaluate your reasoning if you care to present it so we can come to an informed decision.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE

Mac how much game experience with F16 do you have?

Absolutely none, from memory.

also, fferyisha is strong town.

F-16 and I have played 3 games iirc (4 including hunterxhunterx but I didn't even remember he was in that game until a few days ago). In two of them, I knew he was town because I wasn't. In the first game he was confirmed town because his predecessor counterclaimed scum and got the guy lynched before replacing out.

I think that might be why I find his play confusing. I've never had to actually sort him before.

You should probably ask someone like someone like Tammy who has a 100% accuracy rate in reading me. On the plus side, I can say in endgame that I can read you but you can't read me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

what's up with the falcon?

Basically most of their posts between the mc vote and unvote are terrible and look like they're slowly trying to back up from what they realize is a horrible vote.

I explained why I voted MC. I unvoted because I know I tend to scumread people that are annoying me and that never really leads to a scum lynch.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also the Stuffed Crust wagon is really bad and I have no idea why people are trying to restart it.

So, you vote the one person that attempts to derail it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

what's up with the falcon?

Look at the way he eased onto voting me; pushing me without a vote, until he could paint the mara-tammy fight as scummy and got a few other players to agree, THEN he votes me.

^ This is junk. Yeah, I was waiting to see if other people would support the vote before I voted you. It isn't scummy, it is null. Town test to see whether a lynch is viable and so does scum. It isn't alignment indicative.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

And your read of me again is?

Town, although I am not saying I wouldn't re-evaluate in LYLO. I don't like the way you give MC an enormous amount of leeway while being a lot stricter with most others that you haven't played that much with. But I am leaning towards it being a playstyle thing.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I think I can see why you're all suspecting F16. he hasn't explained why cabd's gambits have apparently helped the scum wincon over the town wincon and when told to by cabd he sidesteps it.

that said, I could probably lynch desperado too. his push on us was shit.

How did I sidestep it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Well, you are in luck because I am town. But I don't know who the scum are.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'll tell you who I think is town if that helps.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, Tammy is obvtown. Pieguyn is town. Stuffed are town (I think). Not sure about Arthur but Tammy reads him as town so I am not too worried. MC was annoying and I scumnread them for a while but I really don't have a read on them now that I think about it. Geists are town but don't sheep ffery because she is wrong about me. Nacho and I made a peace treaty to not nightkill each other if one of us is scum. I don't have a proper read on his and Thor's hydra. Brian is acting much like he did in Mentor and Mentee. DOMO looks town. KBBQ are also annoying and not engaging although I don't think it is alignment indicative. They pretty much scumread Stuffed and assume that if they were wrong, I would be scum for townreading them aka "whiteknighting." Cephrir looks town. I don't like the muffin wagon either.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I dunno what I see, but the jump on mara felt opportunistic, and that bit about not starting a wagon because there was no support bothers me. Someone has to start every wagon. Where it goes from there is up to other players.

How is it opportunistic? That was probably the wagon least likely to go through. I had plenty of opportunities to jump onto a ffery-approved wagon and avoid those alarm bells going off.

MC are doing the same thing. They haven't voted for me at all - merely looked for support.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Hi cabd and Mara!!!

It's your favorite lynchbait here.

Vote: MC MARACA

Gutshot, looks like Falcon isn't helping me by telling me who's scum. Bert was eager and now is disappointed. Also, does anyone feel Mara has been like...not here, which... bah humbug

And so I continue reading!

You know I catch scum through POE right? This game is large enough that I haven't been able to do it yet. I'll try and formulate a reads-list before the end of the day though.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It's a relative thing, and maybe it's because I missed the significance of some of your stances in our earlier games due to knowing your alignment.

What do you mean by "relative" in this context? How is it relative?

For that matter so have I, though I voted you for a short while. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to know why what I am doing is different from what Cabd is doing.

I am not sure what this is in reference to.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

i thought you meta people and catch scum that way predominantly

Actually, most of the people I meta, I ended up townreading. I think I did about 10-11 walls so far across many games and about 9 of them were townreads.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also I thought I made clear that I disagreed with nero on that wk matter.
Meh who cares

Where do you and Nero stand regarding Stuffed Crust?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You know where I stand and I told nero to just follow me.

Were you the one who declined to explain the read or Nero?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It's a relative thing, and maybe it's because I missed the significance of some of your stances in our earlier games due to knowing your alignment.

What do you mean by "relative" in this context? How is it relative?

Opportunism is relative to how I think I've seen you play in other games. But, like I said, it could be because of not having played with you where I didn't know your alignment. Right now, if I knew for a fact that you're town, I'd probably think "uncertainty" rather than "opportunism". I came by that ah-ha as I was typing the post out, that I may have seen some of these behaviors before but not from an uninformed perspective.

For that matter so have I, though I voted you for a short while. I have more to say on this topic, but first I want to know why what I am doing is different from what Cabd is doing.

I am not sure what this is in reference to.

In reference to opportunism.

Still not sure what you are asking. What do you mean by how you are different from Cabd? You are two different players with different viewpoints, skills, and opinions. What have you done that was the same as Cabd?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It is similar in that you are both suspecting me. My reads on you two are different because of other actions.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Somebody who can read bert for shit tell me what the actual fuck he's doing please.

I get a few townBert vibes but not sure yet.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Hey Desp, care to elaborate why?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, but I wasn't aware of the extent of your scumhunting ability then. Town-me got pretty annoyed when Generic kept accusing me of buddying BBMolla because I townread him really hard to the point where I thought he was less likely scum than the claimed cop or confirmed town. I am talking mostly about me. I've had a couple of other very similar bad experiences like that in Micro 252 and Micro 254.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Who is pick for a scumteam?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You think Stuffed and DOMO could be on a scumteam together? They argued pretty hard and it is unlikely it is a bus. Why Giests and Dayne? Your last post on Maraca was over a thousand posts ago? Have recent posts influenced your thoughts on them?

So, you said you were trying something new. Your playstyle does seem different than BB:HoH. What is the reason for this?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

^ Is that Mara or Cabd?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I thought it was Mara but since Cabd is online, I'll go with it being Cabd.

I find it hilarious you think I am scum because I called out your partner for making a bad, scum-sided move that knocked out one of the town's assets. I have come around to thinking that maybe she just misjudged the situation and Mara-gambits aren't as calculated and risk-assessed as yours. But the fact still remains that it was a bad move.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

All I know is this one. If you are town, I am not impressed.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

of course recent posts have influenced my thoughts. so did your interpretation of cabd's gambit.

Well, I realized now that it was Mara's gambit. What are your own thoughts about it?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You, generic.

Then that's town mara.

I don't even need to reference colo. Look at wingate, she was scum there and the moment I went after her she omgused me. Yes, she thought I was scum too, but the point is her reaction to being cornered was panic and aggression... Here, I take swipes at their tea and she townreads me? Calm scumhunting mara.

Casso, even when you think I'm not engaging with her , there's always a plan.

Was there an instance when you pushed on her when she was town and she responded with a townread on you?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also I'm very tempted to move my vote to F-16.

How about you
a) Actually do it
b) Explain why you find me scummy and try to dig deeper

Talking about your temptations isn't helping the game.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

But lets say you did.

If you were town, you obviously thought that my push, on tammy was town-motivated and didn't think of it being scum motivated until tammy freaked out about it. at the point that she did, and started calling me scum, you had decided to change your read on me. no degression on your town-read of us, no sign of you losing faith in your read of us, nothing

Incorrect. I had an obvtown read on you in 280. This changed to leaning town in 551. It was null by 1308 as I don't even mention you in my townreads. This is continued in 1458 and 1460. In 1758, I accuse you of helping the scum. In 2011, I disagree strongly with Geists about their townread on you. In 2091, I vote you following Tammy's vote. My progression in reads is very obvious and gradual. You could just as well draw a linear graph to describe my read on you. In 2196, I engage and question you to which you respond and I think about it. In 2228, I unvote giving you the benefit of the doubt for poor play. Here is the graph: (The y-axis shows the strength of the townread from 0-100).

I also have a very good reason to think that scum would try a discrediting tactic with Tammy since I've seen it happen before while I've never seen Tammy get mislynched. This is based off of my past experience with Tammy and an understanding of her playstyle.

and, I had asked cabd if you had a reason to think he was able to read you correctly. There isn't, so you not being impressed by him because he "got your alignment wrong" is absolute shit and reeks of trying to get on his good side.

Why haven't you asked me if I had a reason to think Cabd can read me? I'll answer anyways. Cabd has read plenty of my games, and has even said once that he pegged me as scum in a game after it ended. There is a large enough variation in my town and scum games that someone like Cabd should be able to read me very easily. This is very blatantly my towngame. I am not this skilled as scum. My scumgame amounts to lots of lurking. My best scumgame was where I replaced into an autowin situation and twisted my scumbuddy's meta to call him town and held myself together for 4 real life days in 5P LYLO, so it wasn't even a big deal at all. Bert and Nacho know about this. All other scumgames are much worse. You should check my wiki or ask someone like Tammy, Nacho, or Bert who actually know what my scumgame looks like.

You don't wanna pick a fight with me, it's pretty damn obvious in the way that you scum read us, but don't call my actions scummy, rather anti-town and using that as an avenue to try and push us to get lynched.

we aren't scum, we are "'

helping

scum.

the fact that you phrase it as such proves that you don't really have a scum-read on us, but you keep pushing it as such

the fact that you keep calling my actions as "helping scum" proves that you think my actions are anti-town. not scummy, anti-town and guess what?

town can, and are far more likely to be anti-town.

I accused you of helping scum because that is what you have done. There is no way for me to tell whether you are town that made a dumb move or scum helping your wincon quite blatantly. I have analyzed the effect of your gambit as opposed to seeing the underlying town motivation. I tend to do that when people annoy me. I got over it and considered the possibility of bad-town.

Especially taking into consideration of who is in this slot, and taking into the consideration of what we both have pride in RE our scum games.

there is far more evidence of you being scum, than there is of us being scum.

you never explained the scum motivation behind our gambits, at all. Why

I

would make such a push on tammy as scum, in the first place especially since I admitted to being scared of her volatile nature as scum.

Wtf do I care about how much you pride your scumgame and how is it even relevant? I did explain the scum motivation behind your push on Tammy in 1758. Tammy's post also resonated with me quite a bit:

I'm not really good at resisting trolling even if and when I know I'm being trolled especially when people are talking to me the way they were. I think they saw me enter this game confident and happy, which only means one thing for my alignment, and decided to knock me out of my comfort zone, that way noone will listen to my reads because I'm the emotional girl who got frustrated and cussed people out.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What are your thoughts on Nacho?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I have a theory for Geists being scum but that would involve both Giests and Casso being scum and ffery opening up with a bus on Nacho which she later retracts. But it would be risky as hell if the lynch actually went through, and the read had so much depth to it.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I have a theory for Geists being scum but that would involve both Giests and Casso being scum and ffery opening up with a bus on Nacho which she later retracts. But it would be risky as hell if the lynch actually went through, and the read had so much depth to it.

what do you think about the thing nacho and muffin are doing right now?

Not sure what to make of it. Muffin isn't playing like his town or scumgames so this is new to me. I am using Rail Tracer in The Cash Cabd and his Touhou scumgame as references.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I haven't finished analyzing him but the notable thing I found in Touhou in his initial posts was that he displayed a specific kind of opportunism. When Pie and Varsoon went through a TvT back and forth, he supported Varsoon and pushed against Pie's arguments. This despite the fact that Pie had better arguments (or at least so I thought). I believe his motivation was that he figured Varsoon was a better player to buddy to because Varsoon was more hard headed and unlikely to turn on him as long he continued to support him in his arguments against Pie. Muffin went against the flow and didn't hop onto Varsoon and as such avoided the common pitfall of bandwagoning scum. The main difference I found with his towngame was that Cash Cabd, it seemed like he was legitimately scumhunting. His push on Humble Poirot and continued questioning and desire to get to the depth of the matter presented a very different feel than the opportunism in Touhou. I am not done yet so those are my initial thoughts. His play here is nothing like his town or scum play so I have no idea what is going on yet.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

KBBQ, do you have any insights? I'd appreciate your thoughts as it might help me get a better feel for what to look for as I continue to read through his games.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I also have a very good reason to think that scum would try a discrediting tactic with Tammy since I've seen it happen before

It would be lovely if you can link a few games so I can see if you actually believe what you're talking about or not.

You were there in Black Flag Nightless hydra'ing with me when Tierce spent an inordinate amount of time discrediting Tammy and making her look bad. Just read through it again.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yeah, but I wasn't aware of the extent of your scumhunting ability then. Town-me got pretty annoyed when Generic kept accusing me of buddying BBMolla because I townread him really hard to the point where I thought he was less likely scum than the claimed cop or confirmed town. I am talking mostly about me. I've had a couple of other very similar bad experiences like that in Micro 252 and Micro 254.

You didn't meta him during that game?

Who are you talking about and which game?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Bert and BRO, what about the phrasing is wierd?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay

I'll go look at that again.

Anyway while you're here does the muffin scumread on casso look natural to you or not. I mean the way he just votes casso first with weak reasoning then strengths it after casso attack them. (Okay I'm probably not getting my point across but does it look like they're trying to make a camping vote look better by putting forth reasons after they're attacked so it looks like they're initial vote was stronger or not? <-- probably still confusing but w/e )

Zmuffin voted Casso, and when asked for reasons, he pointed to a post which came after his vote. So, either his reasoning strengthened since then, or he voted to engage, or he he just came up with reasoning after the fact. I am not yet sure and he is hard to read. What is the scum motivation in "camping" a vote. I figured zMuffin is a good enough player as scum that her could contrive reasoning for a vote.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@F16: You liar tell when stating that you're town but then don't liar tell that you don't know who scum are.

What's a liar tell?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bert, I considered scum in the lurkers especially Desp but his recent posts are giving me a strong town vibe.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, what is your readslist looking like?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

BRO, can you explain your zMuffin read as well?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Falcon - you're not disappointed in me at all for having a meltdown and getting pissed? You don't think it's awful of me at all to be voting mc maraca for what from an outside view could be omgus?

I wish you hadn't but I understand why you did. I skimmed through your ISO in Mafia behind the Maiden after seeing it being referenced in Black Flag to get a perspective of your playstyle. It seems to be a darker side of your play that rarely resurfaces now and MC's attack was likely a trigger either intentional or unintentional.

If I had a townread on them, I would've tried to get you to stop but I don't.

On another note, I've been wanting to play a game with Norlkaz for a while so looking forward to what he has to say.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

StuffedCrust, what is your read on me?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bert, wanna chat about the game?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Awesome. You seem to indicate that you were willing to take Generic's reads into consideration if others are townreading him. How about you? Do you have a townread on him? Do you see any similar patterns to the Wingate game. I read it too and I am null on Generic at this point so I'd your input.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I agree that he has a good scumgame based on the Big Brother: HoH game and I initially thought he was playing to his scum-meta but as the game went on, I saw a lot of things that were different so I'll keep that in mind. As for Maraca, I have them more in the "annoyance" pile rather than the scumpile.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What do you think of Sakura so far?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What are reads now. You keep saying you may be wrong about your reads but I am confused as to what your reads actually are.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

EBWOP

What are your reads now?

You keep saying you may be wrong about your reads but I am confused as to what your reads actually are.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I thought Sakura's vote on me in 630 and asking Thor and Nacho for their thoughts in 732 felt genuine. Her followup in 743 also felt townish which was based on Thor's response to her. It looked as though she was looking for something from Thor meta-wise and got it. It did feel off initially that she thought she could read Thor so easily and so early but then again, my model of Sakura based on reading past games indicates that she is confident in her ability to read good scum players. Like that Newbie I said I was following where she was super-confident in her Cabd townread where they both gambited with a cop inno on each other. So, I could plausibly see it coming from her as town. Thoughts?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Mara's an easy wagon to make BIG, quick. And Cabd's defensive responses if he's really in tune with the game, they just add fuel to the fire.

Can you give me a link to where Mara was an easy wagon? I found it to be opposite. It has been quite difficult to get votes on them. I figured scum would want to jump at Mara's screw-up assuming she was town. But then, they have people like Geists backing them up to the hilt despite her play so I am ambivalent.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

So if you and f16 were hoping for a fight I'm gonna have to disappoint you at this moment in time.

I am not hoping for a fight. I am hoping to get a read on you because I have not been able to do so, so far.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Generic, which of the players in this game have you played with before besides Mara? Do you have any strong reads on any of them?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Updated reads. Not seriatim.

Town

1. Tammy - Still strongest town read.
4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - The rising scumread consensus makes me wonder if I'm wrong here, but

I'm sticking with my read

5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Realizing that in our prior games I always knew his alignment led to an epiphany
13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - Ffery's GiF read is town. Nero's pissing her off.
18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little.

Listening to Mara for now.

6. Generic - looks a lot more town over time, especially the way he handled the recent misunderstanding with pieguyn
Bert

roflcopter

- looking pretty town as of replace-in

Maybe Town

3. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) - This is another read where the consensus makes me wonder if I've backed off for bad reasons. But,

sticking with my read.

I haven't been that impressed with consensuses (consensii?) lately.
7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- My reactions to posts have been some good, some not so good. Keeping him in this group.
11. BROseidon - Less coasting, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of parallel thought that we usually have when we're both town.
14. goodmorning - Less comfortable here as the game progresses due to lack of content.

This despite the Cabd black box meta read.

19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing a lot more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. We're keeping him in maybe town because ffery feels his last posts before v/la were more likely town-Ceph than scum-Ceph
17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. His interaction with casso was enough of a townfeel to move him from null.

Not so Town

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) -

GiF said not town.

15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn due to the way their back and forth ended without a sense of resolution. It's hard to fault anyone for lack of participation over the last several days, but I'm not that comfortable with Sakura atm.
10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts. The Sakura interactions didn't feel quite right somehow.
20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. I feel his more recent posts are coming off more engaged and hence more town.

Null or Not enough data

12. Norlkaz

Brian Skies

- Moved to not enough data since replace-in.

These are my reads, though Nati has had a squint at them and agrees directionally.

VOTE: Stuffed Crust

The bolded and the underlined seem to show two different mindsets. What factors influenced those mindsets? What do you think of Sakura in light of my points about her?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ffery, I don't understand this read on Pie either:

10. pieguyn SonOfZeus - He's not doing some stuff that I am used to seeing him do when he's town, particularly cross-checking his reads with other players and frequently asking people what they think about other players' posts.

Looking through Pie's posts, I see him doing it repeatedly:

@EVERYONE: if one of my townreads or null-town reads is wrong who do you think it probably is?

A general call out to everyone to comment on his reads. He is cross-checking here.

which of my townreads do you think is wrong?

Specifically asks KoreanBBQ which one of his reads is wrong.

@BBQ:

what are your thoughts on Cephrir?

@Cephrir:

what are your thoughts on BBQ?

Cross-checks BBQ's and Cephrir's reads with each other.

anything specific you like about him?

Follow-up.

generally when my scumreads are wrong or I don't have enough scumreads I default to my null reads. so given you said my scumreads suck I wanted to find out if, under the assumption my scumreads are wrong, my next most likely scumreads were good

if one of my town reads is wrong who do you think it most likely is?

Specific question, apparently to KBBQ again.

what do you think about Sakura so far?

Cross-checks his Sakura read with Talah.

mostly Tammy's points. also I find it kind of odd how she seemed excited I was in this game and hasn't interacted with me at all since then. I'd think there'd at least be some form of interaction even if it wasn't serious or game-related.

if it was just me I'd probably write it off as paranoia but the fact that other people are starting to see similar things makes me a bit worried for the moment

do you have any reservations on her?

Develops his read on you based on other's points and cross-checks by asking me whether I have any reservations about you.

This is just the first 42 posts of his ISO. I could do this with this entire ISO but I feel that he has been cross-checking reads almost constantly. I'd like elaboration on how he is not or what I am missing.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't know what you're asking. In both cases, I'm subordinating my own read (which I don't trust because I have a track record of being wrong when they're town) for what one of my townreads thinks because I think they're better at reading that player than I am.

Are you saying you are better at reading GM than Cabd is? Because I remember you saying that you are bad at reading her and contribute to her mislynches as town. It logically follows that you would be listening to what your townread Cabd is saying.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It doesn't translate to an ability to read Thor. I thought the way she read Thor was very townish by itself. That's what I was asking for comments about.

The fact that Thor is a good scumplayer undermined my townread on Sakura because I couldn't believe she could get such an easy townread on a competent scum player but remembering that newbie game, I realized it didn't stray from town-Sakura baseline so it shouldn't be too much of a worry.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't know what you're asking. In both cases, I'm subordinating my own read (which I don't trust because I have a track record of being wrong when they're town) for what one of my townreads thinks because I think they're better at reading that player than I am.

Are you saying you are better at reading GM than Cabd is

? Because I remember you saying that you are bad at reading her and contribute to her mislynches as town. It logically follows that you would be listening to what your townread Cabd is saying.

I don't understand how you're deriving the bolded from my posts, because I'm saying the opposite. She's not in my scumpile because I'm trusting Cabd's read.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. I think I misinterpreted that read.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Generic, which of the players in this game have you played with before besides Mara? Do you have any strong reads on any of them?

Played with bert (town read), nacho (scum read), natirasha (scum lean), tammy (town read), GIF (slight scum lean), F16 (town lean), mafiaSSK (scum lean), Pieguyn (scum lean), Sakura hana (town lean), desperado (town lean, but unsettled by his lack of involvement).

I think I've also played in a game with BROseidon but he is null in this one to me.

Can you explain GIF and Pie? You backed off from Pie after saying that you misrepped him (unintentionally), so is your scumread based on other factors? As for GIF, my gut says town especially with his explanation for the vote on StuffedCrust, the back-off etc. While the initial refusal to explain was annoying, it overall seemed like a town-ish gambit and I can't see much benefit to it as scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am not sold you are town. Still null at this point. You could be an actual Mason. You could be a VT fake-claiming Mason. Or you could be scum fake-claiming Mason. Regardless, Mara made a dumb move earlier in the game. If you were competent town, I'd expect you to own up to it and back off. You didn't. You continued acting as if you were in the right and OMGUSing me. That makes you (Mara) either scum or incompetent town. I am not sure which. That's why you are in my annoyance pile. Only incompetent townies tunnel mindlessly. I backed off of voting you several pages ago so if you are actually town and this ends up being TvT, it is not my fault and you better not blame me at endgame, just saying that now.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16: If you think i'd fakeclaim mason at this stage in the game as town, you are showing that you have clearly not ACTUALLY meta-checked the kind of gambits I pull; or you're choosing to ignore that for your own agendas. I take risks, but not the kind that might out a real set of masons were I to be VT.

I think the lack off cc to your original fake-claim would tell you that there aren't real masons which makes it an amazing fake-claim as scum or VT. Out your partner.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

You need to tell me why scumcabd fakeclaims masons at like L-8 or some shit like that with two superstrong players (nacho and ffery) townreading the fuck out him, with a backup townasfuck read from generic.

Numbers matter. Nacho's slot had a wagon on him and plenty of people were attacking ffery. Town or not, your wagon wasn't going to get derailed on their word.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I agree I've been slowly losing my grip on f-16 in the (very little) I've read of the game.

What does this mean?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What does this mean?

Remember when I said that your posts sucked a few pages back? Yeah. They still kinda do.

That was a big help.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

MC Maraca (3) - Tammy, BROseidon, Desperado

Plus F16'
Plus Stuffed Crust

At least one scum in that list of five. If it's not F16 who is it?

False dichotomy. Your wagon could be all-town because of your anti-town play. If you are town, why are you not thinking this through? I doubt you are a shallow enough scumhunter that your scumhunting is based on OMGUS.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

I don't give a shit whether you like this, jsyk

Also posts like this. I doubt you expected this to be more helpful than explaining your townread on MC.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Cabd, you sure ffery is town?? Ugh. After our last game?? Ahhhhh

I quote andy:

"The only innocents are bodies" and add my own continuation "oh and also

masons

and innocent children outside bastard games"

Unproven Masons. This assumes that you actually have a partner which we don't know.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Geists, was your townread on MC fabricated or not? Your response seems to indicate that it was real but I want to be sure.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I doubt Maraca are a viable wagon today after the claim. I am open to lynching Geists. Not at all confident in the read but I dislike the other wagons although I am not entirely sure about SC.

Key points:
1) Pie read doesn't make sense. That they continued pushing it rather than engaging after I posted a pile of evidence to prove them wrong is unsettling. I don't feel ffery as town would be as hardheaded or unresponsive to alternative viewpoints.
2) Reads on me and MC don't make sense. They condone MC's anti-town play while acting as if I'm "fanning the flames." Even if MC are town, I doubt town would blame anyone for attacking them. Mara's "gambit" was probably the most useless, anti-town one I ever saw.
3) I don't like ffery's attack on Bert for "

testing the waters.

" Seems to be a tactic straight out of scum-ffery's playbook in response to accusations.

VOTE: Geists

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I doubt Maraca are a viable wagon today after the claim.

In case anyone had doubts in f16 scum. If you actually didn't believe my claim you'd be rallying people to get me to L-1.

I am ambivalent. I characterized your partner as "anti-town" more than scum. That should be a clue. I feel that your tunneling of me is anti-town as well. If you are town, you need to rethink and re-evaluate your reads. I have done this several times which makes tunellers all the more annoying.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'm not going to be persuaded out of reads by you. Sorry.

The player I'm reading has that responsibility, and I'm engaging players I'm scumreading. And my reads have changed in several cases.

Except it doesn't make any sense from a town POV to continue to push a read after evidence is brought up proving you wrong. This doesn't match up with your create townbloc town mentality either.

KBBQ, what do you think of lynching Geists instead?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Town
5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Realizing that in our prior games I always knew his alignment led to an epiphany

I'm not going to be persuaded out of reads by you. Sorry.

I HAVE been working with my townreads.

The above statements don't make sense.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

@ KBBQ, you should get around to reading them.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Changed my mind. 2848 was incredibly town but I pushed it farther to make sure I cover all my bases and don't get paranoid of you again for the rest of the game. I was townreading you all throughout the game and wanted this one read to be my stake in the ground (especially with Tammy being V/LA) but that wasn't happening because I couldn't see your reasoning for the MC townread. I guess I got what I wanted. Sorry if that was annoying.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

That and I couldn't understand why you didn't sort me quickly and easily. I expected it to happen when I came into the game and was taken aback.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Changed my mind. 2848 was incredibly town but I pushed it farther to make sure I cover all my bases and don't get paranoid of you again for the rest of the game. I was townreading you all throughout the game and wanted this one read to be my stake in the ground (especially with Tammy being V/LA) but that wasn't happening because I couldn't see your reasoning for the MC townread. I guess I got what I wanted. Sorry if that was annoying.

you think she can't fake it as scum?

also what happened to her read on me and her push on bert?

Farto v sephi is even worse.

oh god rofl

I don't think it was fake. It was like Generic said earlier about how scum on his other site would attack the reasons for why they were scum. I tend to agree that scum caught for the wrong reasons tend to attack the arguments about why they are scum as opposed to the

idea

that they are scum. I am not bothered that she didn't respond to all of the points and instead just threw out a "if you are town, I'll hold this against you" type argument. That felt very townish. I wasn't very serious about my point on Bert. I was implicitly referring to another game where ffery used the exact same phrase "testing the waters" as scum. Meta is never that simple. I made the arguments sub-par on purpose to see the reaction. Regarding you, I read you as town but I'll leave it to you two to sort each other out. That's how it works best.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

TOWN+

1. Tammy – Obvious town
2. geists (fferyllt + Natirasha) – Town based on ffery’s Nacho-push, and later reactions. Nat hasn’t posted as much but it may be a good sign considering he is better scum player.
3. pieguyn – I like his pushes and stance changes on Sakura, and DOMO, and his later reaction to Thor and the pushback. I see a lot of parallels between his back and forth here and his back and forth with Varsoon in Touhou.¹
4. Bert(Rofl) – Bert’s posts feel like town-Bert. His elaboration on Generic and Sakura reads made sense as did his push on Geists.
5. Desperado – I like his attack on me based on BB:HoH. It makes sense from town-Desp and not much from scum-Desp especially when he forgot all about it and tried to get me to vote SC.

TOWN

6. DOMO – His pushes and paranoia, and activity seemed genuine and unlike scumgame.²
7. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) – Their push against Stuffed as well their uncertainty seemed genuine. Still don’t like the lack of reading my posts though.
8. Generic – Some of his reactions and pushes seems townish but I am somewhat paranoid about this read.³
9. Ser Arthur Dayne (pitoli) – Not sure but Tammy said he is town so I’ll say town for now.
10. zMuffinMan (talah) – Very different from his scumgames and recent posts feel more like towngame.⁴
11. Sakura Hana – Read on Thor seemed townish. Will need to check meta to see what she is capable of as scum.⁵

LEFTOVERS/YET TO BE SORTED

12. Cephrir – Read stale due to inactivity⁶
13. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) – Will explain later⁷
14. goodmorning
15. MafiaSSK (roflwaffles)
16. BROseidon
17. Norlkaz (Brian Skies)
18. Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665) – Will sort on Day 3.
19. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) – Tunelling is annoying. I can’t objectively judge someone that is tunneling me right now.

---

Pretty sure everyone in my town+ pile is town. I'll double check with Pieguyn's meta to make absolutely sure. As for the rest, I am not yet really confident in any of those reads. Will probably have to do it tomorrow.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am about to go to bed but Nacho, comments on my readslist would be appreciated.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Also

Unvote

because fferyllt's mad at me.

Don't like this. ffery has consistently been throwing her entire weight to back up someone playing blatantly anti-town regardless of their affiliation.

You are harping too hard on this point; net result of gambit from scumMC side is locking down Tammy vote on scum and making Tammy useless for like a day when it's likely she would be useless anyways. So the antitown effects you are talking about actually aren't that horrible.

Why would Tammy be useless anyway?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

Desperado lower.

Why Desperado lower? I thought his BB:HoH reference was pretty towny. Also, can you explain the Sakura read?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F16 why did you use the phrasing "I am open to lynching Geists" in a 'working out the kinks in a townread' situation?

I was getting increasingly paranoid at that time and thought I could potentially be wrong about that read.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

The scumteam is:
Goodmorning
Bert
Cephrir
Tammy
Casso

I was going to make a scumteam A and a scumteam B, but these 5 are all together.
VOTE: Bert

Why Tammy and Bert?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
pieguyn
Sakura Hana
Cephrir
Desperado

^ Here are the scums. Please feel free to create a wagon on any.

It worthy to note I will also vote a wagon on BROseidon.

And like MafiaSSK and DOMO are literally unknown to me so wtf

Most of your suspects contain players that wagoned MC.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I have no scumreads. From the entire day, I developed 5 solid townreads (Tammy, Bert, Geists, Pieguyn, and Desperado). That is less progress than I hoped for but I am fairly sure that there is no scum there. I'd prefer to lynch outside that pool, preferably someone useless that just pops in from time to time to complain about how behind they are (this should put them out of their misery), and preferably someone my townreads want to lynch. I'd like to hear Tammy's updated thoughts after she gets back.

As it is, I am looking at the following possible scumreads from the above players (I crossed out the ones I won't lynch):

Tammy: MC Maraca,

Giests?

Bert:

Geists, Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665), pieguyn

, Ser Arthur Dayne, DOMO
Geists:

Pieguyn

, Sakura, StuffedCrust
Pieguyn:

Casso,

(please provide your other options, Pieguyn)
Desperado: StuffedCrust, maraca,

geists,

domo, dayne

Tammy says Dayne is town, I am leaning pretty heavily town on DOMO and he isn't a viable wagon anyway. I'll likely go with StuffedCrust. The thing that bugged me about them was 2306? I don't like the timing of it. Just shortly before, in 2273, they had me as town but quickly change to apparently agreeing with the suspicion on me. Then, they vote MC Maraca who I was pushing. I don't like it because they seem to pick a side between me and MC based on who was going down. They townread me when everyone else does and scumread me when everyone else does.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Empire, I'll be LA until the 31st. I'll still post but I may exceed the prod limit within this time.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This at least gave me the motivation to develop reads more aggressively. In the event that I am dead before D2, I'd better give the best reads possible.

Besides me, there are 19 players left. First, let's get the obvious town out of the way. I don't think anyone really is considering lynching these players. I'll provide reasoning for why they are town but it is a low priority and I have limited time at least this day phase.

The obvious townies

1) Tammy

- TOWN - This is obvious (Nobody disagrees).

2) geists

- TOWN - Again obvious (Some people disagree so I'll provide reasoning upon request. Not in danger of being lynched so that is a low priority).

3) Bert

- TOWN - Playing pretty strongly like town-Bert and everyone who read his posts agrees that he is town. (Only Llamarble disagrees so I'll provide reasoning upon request).

---

Moving on, that leaves 16 players. I'll start with my biggest townread that I believe may potentially be lynched down the road.

Townreads

4) pieguyn

- I found Pieguyn's behavior in this game very townish starting with his aggressive replace-in and push on Sakura. While it may have been unresolved, he does come back to it later and the paranoia is evident based on the fact that he wonders whether he let go of Sakura too soon. Let's take a quick look at Pieguyn's town and scum games to verify his behavior.

TOWN:

Mini 1522: AA MFA - In this game and other towngames, Pieguyn comes across tonally as very aggressive and and is determined to get on top of the thought process behind other player's votes, reactions, and suspicions. His immediate primary push on Sakura and secondary one on Brian are indicative of this and his aggressive questioning of Sakura in 131 and follow-up in post 132 where he asks Sakura's opinions on Brian and Brian's on Sakura read very similar tonally to his normal towngame. He is also very focussed on meta and tries to compare meta experiences from players that have played with each other before which is shown through his push on Cabd asking for reads in post 151 and asking for Geists opinion on Brian in post 139 as related to a previous game they played together. Moving on, his push on TNE in post 159 shows the same aggressive tone that is absent in his scumgames and the rest of his ISO supports that to the point where he is so aggressive, he is called "vitriolic" by another player.

Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night - His first major back-and-forth occurs with Varsoon starting around post 99 and continuing for several pages. It is notable that his pushes are geared mostly towards determining the affiliation of the player he is tunneling with back-and-forth debate being the favored strategy. Pieguyn's appeals to other players to discuss his scumread are also notable traits with him asking Morph the Cat what they thought of Varsoon in post 122 while post 131 is a direct appeal to Morph based an Varsoon's abrasiveness which at that point, Pieguyn thought was part of his scumgame possibly based on a minor misunderstanding with Morph. The debate strategy continues in post 126 where he pushes Varsoon while continuing to refute his aguments and some clear argumentative flourishes round them out such as the "you are not getting away with this." I deduce that the motivation for those flourishes is to increase pressure on his scumread and create a sense of hopelessness at which point the person he is scumreading crumbles and likely is lynched. Pieguyn being a generally debate-happy player consistently engages in back-and-forths which is shown through his responses to zMuffinman in post 165 when zMuffinMan swoops in to save Varsoon (Muffin was scum and Pie v Varsoon was TvT). Pieguyn accuses Muffin of being scum. This shows a mentality of being very aware of his surrroundings and on the lookout for who could be alternative scumreads along with his main scumread. Pieguyn is generally wary of townreads accusing him as shown when Cabd throws a vote on him in post 406, he immediately starts to doubt his townread on Morph and declares that his townread might be going away. This is likely due to the shock of someone townreading him quickly changing their read and the paranoia that a scum player is engineering a lynch on him. It is important to note that the reaction was one of disbelief but at the same time, it is reasonable and inquisitive. Pieguyn's general progression from gambits and gamestate changing events is to call for a reads-list from the players involved as shown in post 468. This shows a mindset of scumhunting through getting into the minds of the other players and seeing how their reads evolved. His suspicion changes smoothly in 471 where he goes to attacking Waynegg for Waynegg's attack on zMuffin even though Pieguyn was scumreading zMuffin before. This smooth flow of suspicion matches with his game here. His reads list in post 880 again shows the changes in his reads over time which occur very naturally with interactions with other players.

SCUM:

Touhou Upick - In this game, Pieguyn is scum with GuyInFreezer and DakeDekane. He starts off by voting Sakura Hana in his post 54 and moves onto questioning her about her townread on Varsoon and asks why she always townreads him in games they play together. I was most taken aback by how mild the questioning is here and the debating nature of his playstyle is very muted in the initial interaction with Sakura. I conclude that the most plausible reason for the lack of conviction in his attack is that he doesn't actually believe that Sakura is scum - which is true. A pattern exclusive to this game that I didn't find to the same extent in his towngames is the unnecessary focus on himself as shown in post 93 and followed through on post 119 where he comes across as very self-conscious and trying to fix his image where as in his Touhou towngame, most of his questions and requests for feedback were focussed on getting info about his target as opposed to an inward focus. Pieguyn also exhibits a behavioral pattern common to many competent scum players in that his FOSses and suspicions are based on ideals. His post 183 shows a very idealistic perspective of what players should or shouldn't do telling Sakura that she shouldn't be voting people for contradicting themselves and saying that "

from a town perspective, that doesn't make any sense.

" The changes in his reads in this game are far less natural than in his towngames where he unvotes Sakura and moves onto Bitmap in post 193. Pieguyn as town is rarely content with simple responses and the read switches usually occur upon getting a bigger scumread and are dependent on awareness of the gamestate. As such, the switch here seems at odds with Pie as town. Other highlights include the higher frequency of switches in his scumreads as well as an increased focussed on questioning, defense, and explanation of his action as opposed to accusing his scumread as shown in post 528 and post 547. As mentioned by Pie in 2045 of this game, this seems to have been a bad scumgame so I would say that the differences are more glaring here than in his other scumgames.

Mini 1510 (Fast and Furious) - Pieguyn is partnered with Grimgroove and Marquis. His first big push starts off in post 97 where he pushes Slandaar. The reasoning for the push stands out to me since it is based on something that isn't really scummy - mostly a "contradictory" mode of thought. Moving onto his post 134, I see some parallels to his towngame where he asks for feedback on his pushes from Garmr asking "

what's your thoughts on my list?

" The major differences here include that he is asking for feedback on his own reads as opposed to reads on his scumreads which ties into the focus on internal behavior I see in his scumgames. The same post also contains a lot of questioning and hesitant pushing whereas I see Pieguyn as town be a lot more confident about his pushes. A minor but interesting thing that I noticed was his constant use of "IMO" as shown in posts 148, 164, 230, 239. I don't see it that much in his towngames. It could be nothing but based on the internal focus on how he comes across in his scumgames, it may very well be relevant. I'll also add that asking for other's opinions seem to be a trend in Pie scum games as well so not much can be read into it although the specific way in which he does it is different as town and scum and he comes across as much more aggressive tonally. A look into post 540 where he asks his partner Grimgroove shows this to be the case, so we shouldn't be reading that much into it or at least making it a priority.

Now let's look at Pieguyn's behavior

here

.

He starts off with his reaction test vote on Sakura and a readslist from which he solicits feedback. He also switches out from Sakura and onto KBBQ pretty quickly and I didn't see a lot of town in his initial posts. However, his push on DOMO felt somewhat similar to his back and forths with Sakura in AA and Varsoon in Touhou. It was a little milder than both of those and he tries to understand DOMO's points more but I also thought that the flourishes that he uses to drive home his point gave away an inherently agressive tone such as with "

hi there's so much scum-tone in this post it's not funny. why so defensive?

" in 925. I also really like his 1064 which matches up with Town-Pieguyn meta pretty closely in that he asks me to comment about his suspect while pushing on him. I also like his 1076 where he pushes zMuffin on a scumslip. His 1176 where he asks BRO for thoughts on DOMO seems to match up with his town-meta pretty closely as well. His 1471 and 1479 further support the argument that he is town. His later argument with King of the Seals of Casso and attempts to persuade others to join that wagon makes a lot of sense from town-Pie. These in addition to the points I made in 2694 about cross-checking reads and I feel fairly sure that this is Pieguyn as town although the initial posts bothered me a little because I didn't see the same aggression but it is minor enough to not worry before LYLO.

@ zMuffinman, I'd actually like to discuss what you noticed about Pieguyn and your thoughts about my posts about how he comes across tonally - I feel that he is a lot more energetic and has more conviction in his pushes as town.

---

That leaves the following players below. I think I'll probably go with Desperado, Generic, and zMuffinman tomorrow. I'll be busy most of the day so it should be tomorrow night.

Desperado
Generic
zMuffinMan
MC Maraca
Casso the King of Seals
MafiaSSK
Stuffed Crust
BROseidon
Norlkaz
KoreanBBQ
goodmorning
Sakura Hana
Ser Arthur Dayne
DOMO
Cephrir

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'll get to this later but 2480 should explain to you why the case is shit.

I responded to everything in it. Please read the responses. I don't have time at this moment but don't let Mara spam her way into a tantrum lynch which is basically what this is. She made a dumb move. I called her out on it. She was unable to admit that she made a dumb move and is instead pushing a lynch to save face.

Stuffed is a decent wagon. Broseidon is giving me pings.