NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

He has a town read on me.

+

I think Mara is on my team.

is this about zmuffin or arthur

if arthur, can you tell me why zmuffin scum plz
if zmuffin, can you explain why this makes him scum plz

can anyone else tell me why zmuffin scum

[MC Maraca]

Zmuffin is completely non-comittal and his iso yields absolutely no scum-hunting

[Tammy]

Tammy, do you see any parallels between Arthur's play here and in Black Flag Nightless?

Oh gosh. That game was so long ago and Arthur's meta has changed so much since then, and he's gone through more than one playstyle shift since then.

The last game we played together he barely did anything, got investigated and confirmed town, did a lot more of nothing until right before endgame, and then got lynched in LyLo because he wasn't doing enough even though he was confirmed town.

So, basically I'll need way more on Arthur until I can feel good one way or the other. But, even through the meta changes, one thing that has remained constant in how to read Arthur is to look at how he's reading other people and why.

I thought the major difference was in the way he approached his read on you. I remembered he initially came out aggressively pushing players going so far as to later admit that he was bs'ing reads upon an initial catchup. I felt it different from here although I think checking his more recent completed games would help.

I agree that's why I initially said something to him because he asked if anyone could link him to me showing my initial aggressiveness in case his read on me was base don incorrect meta. Because I would expect that if he had any doubt whatsoever that he would push me like he did in BlackFlag. (I caught him as scum earlier this year because he was kinda scumreading me but not doing what he did in BlackFlag.

though I did waffle later because you know self-doubt

However, in the last game we played together, in the one I just mentioned, I entered the game very similarly to here. I'd drawn scum quite a few times between here and at Westeros and finally drew town. I made several jokes in my entry and he thought I was scum. I, in turn, thought he was scum because he didn't really interact with me to shore up the read. It was given kind of side-linish and that felt very off to me from him. But, in the previous game we played together, in which I was scum, I also thought he was scum because he was a lot less direct and involved until nearer to end game. BUT, in the game previous to that, we were scum partners, and he was pretty over aggressive in a lot of ways, but I also knew he was scum so it's harder to gauge, but he was way more involved and aggressive than his two succeeding town games.

I'm not sure if he's played here at all this semester. (His entry post was okay but not as good as some other of his replace-in when he was town.)

That's a lot to say, I just really don't know, and will need more to get a read on him.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Are you going to tunnel Mara now? You did say earlier that you were going to tunnel of hell her.

Why are you so keen to get me fighting with mara?

Because usually you become obvtown when you fight with Mara.
I see no reason why you wouldn't engage her if you thought she was scum, which I thought you believed before.

Their gambits helped the scum wincon more. They don't deny it when I accused them of it. I don't like any of the leading wagons either.

How did the Mason gambit help the scum wincon more? I realize that it didn't really go anywhere, but I don't see how it was scum beneficial.

at best, no read. you clearly have no understanding of my meta if you actually think this is my scum game, and the reason i called your meta read on me half-assed is because you can't even explain why you thought i was scum, except to say you expected me to come in guns blazing as town. which shows you have no clue about how i play as scum or town.

You can't pretend that your current approach to the game is definitively not your scum meta, so please don't start that shit again. My read on you was based on ~feelings~ and ~vague meta~, sure, but I don't see how a shitty read on you suddenly makes me more likely to be scum. It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early instead of let you coast like everyone else seems to.

dealwithit.jpg

So you do believe that the scumteam is formed of "Nacho and a bunch of lurkers"? Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

when i've seen you "coast" as town, you're still doing stuff, you're still trying to sort people properly, and even when your read on someone is way off, you still look like you're trying to figure out what's going on. here i see none of that.

You're apparently not looking very closely, then.

and all you've done is insist that pieguy should have been more interested in your read on me.

I also said that I didn't like the timing of his jump onto the SC wagon.
And I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it. Keep going, muffinman.

the BBQ read is another. you guys apparently went from thinking they're scum to one of you thinking they're town and the other thinking they're scum, and since then you've just... not mentioned them at all.

Thor read them as scum because Thor.
Nacho read them as town because Nacho.
Thor eventually came over to Nacho's line of thought.
Did I need to comment further on that?

I'll rethink that issue although I still find them scummier than Stuffed and Pie.

And Muffin?

We talked about the differences in Cabd's town and scum gambits a few games back. What are your thoughts about his RVS-phase breadcrumbs from that perspective?

I don't remember the talk as clearly, but I will say that his mason gambit seemed like the sort of thing that gives no definitive scum motivation (I mean, sure he can attack people who can't pick up on the crumb, but that's a case with no leverage and doesn't really do shit for scum-Cabd) and also is a sort of gambit that doesn't really give clear sorting motivation (as opposed to a quickhammer gambit which can strongly sort someone who is close to lynch, perhaps save a mislynch from happening even though it's already done). So, thinking about it in that way, it seems pretty fucking town. I have to say I'm completely lost as to what's causing weird Tammy-Cabd interactions, though. The Tammy-obvtown shtick is something he's seen often enough, so rage in seeing it now is... off? And I can't see why he would pull a similar "push Tammy and make her obvtown" gambit like I tried in Dixon considering how horribly that turned out for us then.

so Thor always misreps, discredits, and uses scare tactics to get people lynched? like I know some people are more aggressive but what he did makes sense from a scum motivation and idk what town motivation he could have behind all that.

That's pretty much Thor in a nutshell, yes.

THEN TWO POSTS LATER CASSO COMES IN AND ACCUSES ME

when he was apparently scumreading Cephrir the whole time

I don't get why this is a big deal. Didn't like your vote on Stuffed Crust, don't care who you're pushing as scum other than Stuffed Crust if your vote sucks.

THEN STARTS THE WAGON ON ME, DESPITE THE FACT THAT I'M POKING AT HIS SCUMREAD. AND OH LOOK HIS VOTE WASN'T EVEN ON CEPHRIR

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir. It was on someone else he found scummy.
Why should you pushing on a scumread make you town as hell somehow?

with the reason "eh, why not?"? WTF

Did you think this was a serious case? It wasn't a serious case.

[Brian Skies]

Brian apparently has scumreads on F-16 and Bro.

Since when have I been scum-reading bro?

This is good.
So, the original reason why I offered the deal to buldermar and buldermar specifically is because buldermar struck me as the type of player who wouldn't back off from a challenge when it didn't directly conflict with his win condition. One of the markers of having good scumplay is the freedom to kill a variety of threats. When there is a player who has such a meta angle on you that you HAVE to kill them, then this is a giant glaring flaw in your play that needs serious, serious work. When a townie makes this offer to a scum player, it's an attack on ego, not on honor.

I appreciated the offer because I am not a significant meta threat to F-16 scum. I can read him, but the rift between his town game and his scum game is large enough where I'm not even close to a person with meta authority on him and he realizes that.

But he's been getting closer to figuring me out, just needs time to do it. The offer gives him that time. Do you see where I'm coming from with this?

I didn't understand the bold part because it's contradicting the message I think you're trying to send. But context-wise, then yes, I do see where you're going with this.

Dude there's a difference between "a lot of activity that's good for town" and "so much activity that shit gets lost in the mass."

This game is moving towards the latter.

I don't give a fuck what anyone says or if I get lynched for it, this guy is town. /sarcasm
I do agree with him though.

the lack of hammerable wagons concerns me

Every fiber in my body wants to say you're scum, but I just can't see the scum-spin on what you're doing this game.

You may remember me from that one time I ruined your game and no one bought anyone a pizza.

I don't know you, but I have a feeling this game will qualify.

What do you think of bbq/ceph/DOMO as scummates?

I'm confused. Why not just join one of the existing wagons?

care to give me your thoughts on DOMO?

why not hop on the SC wagon?

Pieguyn sees the same thing I do. This pleases me.

VOTE: Casso

This is where we want to be.

I actually don't like this vote, but mostly because I like the slot you're voting. I'd love to hear why though (because I feel like a lost puppy and throwing towncred at anything that I agree with or makes sense to me).

except that doesn't make any sense. it's telling because conveniently not posting in a thread, but posting in others, is scummy as fuck. thus, even if Varsoon hasn't done it before, I still consider it to be telling. and now you're trying to infuse meta into the mix here when by your own words no such meta even exists

I'm just going to disagree with you on this being a scumtell without saying why. Even if you ask, I won't tell you. Deal with it.

But Mac has been posting out of that slot, so I don't understand why it matters that Varsoon wasn't.

Because for him (skies), I feel activity levels ARE alignment indicative.

Well, if I remember correctly, things didn't end up too well the last time this was used against me.

yo since when does effort = town?

these scum reads blow cabd

Kind of hard when a handful of players haven't done shit (speaking from experience).

Only one way to find out~

Good luck. I'd love to see you create a theory, test it, and be completely wrong about it. You're basically recreating Ffery's meta case on me from Giffy's game.

If you want an example, see the mutual tunnels between me and Brian in Mentor and Mentee

But we were both town that game, and I did end up with a townread on you right before the game ended.

*Up to page 54 and I've realized that I am no longer paying attention to what I'm reading. This is extremely bad. I'll clear my thoughts and revisit this later.

Town (in no particular order):
Geists
Seal thing
Desp?
Generic
Tammy?
Giffy

[pieguyn]

nice, completely ignoring my point about the subtleties he threw in on top of his aggression when mentioning "that's thor in a nutshell"

is it any coincidence that that's a fairly decisive point in my case? probably not :>

I don't get why this is a big deal. Didn't like your vote on Stuffed Crust, don't care who you're pushing as scum other than Stuffed Crust if your vote sucks.

what does this have to do with anything?

my point is, I was poking around and the two of you immediately swung a wagon on me to get me off you. that's the conclusion I've made based off the timing of your votes/pushes, and your interactions between each other

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir. It was on someone else he found scummy.
Why should you pushing on a scumread make you town as hell somehow?

naturally it should ping you in some way if I'm poking on one of your scumreads. were you thinking both me and Cephrir were scum?

anyway, my point is the voting interactions between you two are awkward as fuck

Went back to look at 66+67 and the Desp vote.
That looks really skeevy and Desp fails to address Stuffed's pretty excellent counter of Desp's "case"

Also looked at Pie's vote, it's more boring to me, kind of a mush mouth hop on at worst and at best.

Let's lynch one of them, I don't recall Nacho declaring either of their meta's sacrosanct yet.

@Ceph - I find you scummy and your wagon on Stuffed bad. Please justify him being scum. Go, go, go!

here Ceph does the same shit you accuse me of doing (wagoning on SC). but then you vote me and never mention Cephrir again? you were going back and forth with him for a while but rather than placing your vote on him, who you were more vocally scumreading and putting pressure on, you wait for the pressure to shift my way and swing a wagon on me. you demonstrated no intent to go forward with a SC wagon, however, instead preferring me or Desp, despite the fact you were pushing on him for a while up to here and he did the exact same thing I did. naturally you should be OK with wagoning Ceph. and you haven't even mentioned Ceph's jump on SC since then? not to mention you hadn't placed a vote on him throughout the whole game, despite apparently scumreading him for a while?

and turning around and looking at Cephrir:

I have been justifying it.

I'm not as convinced as I started out (shhhh its a secret) but still think it's the best wagon by a longshot. If you'd prefer I move to you though perhaps that could be arranged (not really).

It disturbs me that you're scumreading me here after correctly scumreading me in my other two games with you ever (I think my play is pretty different here). I guess you just think I'm scum all the time and I've been giving you too much credit!

Thor managed to read someone correctly???

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Casso

Thanks for making this easy for me

Ceph, I'm thinking he's surprised that Thor managed to read anyone correctly

Oh, I get it now. >.<

VOTE: SC

Actually I need to reassess things

UNVOTE:

I'll deal with this later.

he votes you, then immediately jumps off and votes SC again and then unvotes. his reason for voting you was kind of odd. it seemed really icky and like it could very easily be distancing. and then all of a sudden he postures to jump onto my wagon and forgets all about SC?

Did you think this was a serious case? It wasn't a serious case.

he seemed p serious about getting me lynched. kind of odd if his "case" wasn't serious in the first place. the fact that he responded with jokes when I asked him about it backs this idea up

[pieguyn]

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir.

It was on someone else he found scummy.

your vote was on someone else Cephrir found scummy?

...ok then

[Casso the King of Seals]

nice, completely ignoring my point about the subtleties he threw in on top of his aggression when mentioning "that's thor in a nutshell"

is it any coincidence that that's a fairly decisive point in my case? probably not :>

I can fully address your attacks if you'd like but it seems to me that it'd be a hell of a lot more fruitful if Thor defended your attack on him.

my point is, I was poking around and the two of you immediately swung a wagon on me to get me off you. that's the conclusion I've made based off the timing of your votes/pushes, and your interactions between each other

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. We attacked you because we didn't like how you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. You said "why attack me if I was attacking one of your scum suspects?". Answer? It doesn't matter who your suspects are when 1) Cephrir is a Thor-suspect who is vetted to be town by me. 2) Thor clearly didn't have any very strong scumspects at the time (notice a bunch of complaints about no good wagon, offers to move vote easily...), so a weak suspect attacking a weak suspect isn't really something that's particularly important to us.

naturally it should ping you in some way if I'm poking on one of your scumreads. were you thinking both me and Cephrir were scum?

Explained above pretty nicely.

here Ceph does the same shit you accuse me of doing (wagoning on SC). but then you vote me and never mention Cephrir again? you were going back and forth with him for a while but rather than placing your vote on him, who you were more vocally scumreading and putting pressure on, you wait for the pressure to shift my way and swing a wagon on me. you demonstrated no intent to go forward with a SC wagon, however, instead preferring me or Desp, despite the fact you were pushing on him for a while up to here and he did the exact same thing I did. naturally you should be OK with wagoning Ceph. and you haven't even mentioned Ceph's jump on SC since then? not to mention you hadn't placed a vote on him throughout the whole game, despite apparently scumreading him for a while?

Thor sees two votes that he doesn't like: one by Cephrir, who I have called town. One by you, who I hadn't called town.
Thor's goal is to get a wagon started. Thor sees possible support for your wagon. Thor moves forward with the wagon.
So yes, you're right that we moved forward on you when support came around for you. Why did we choose you over Cephrir? Because I had a townread on Cephrir. Why did we choose you over Desp? Because there was more support on you than there was on Desp.

Our vote wasn't on Cephrir.

It was on someone else he found scummy.

your vote was on someone else Cephrir found scummy?

...ok then

Thor*

[Casso the King of Seals]

Why do you think muffin might be town?

[Tammy]

mod-I'll be v/la until the 23rd. I should be able to post, just don't know when

[Tammy]

mod I wrote a note up there for you

[pieguyn]

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon.

misrep. I got on SC for the most part before I was attacking Cephrir. to be specific, I got on SC at pretty much the same time my attack on Cephrir started.

You were attacking Cephrir. Then you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. We attacked you because we didn't like how you got on the Stuffed Crust wagon. You said "why attack me if I was attacking one of your scum suspects?". Answer? It doesn't matter who your suspects are when 1) Cephrir is a Thor-suspect who is vetted to be town by me. 2) Thor clearly didn't have any very strong scumspects at the time (notice a bunch of complaints about no good wagon, offers to move vote easily...), so a weak suspect attacking a weak suspect isn't really something that's particularly important to us.

Thor sees two votes that he doesn't like: one by Cephrir, who I have called town. One by you, who I hadn't called town.
Thor's goal is to get a wagon started. Thor sees possible support for your wagon. Thor moves forward with the wagon.
So yes, you're right that we moved forward on you when support came around for you. Why did we choose you over Cephrir? Because I had a townread on Cephrir. Why did we choose you over Desp? Because there was more support on you than there was on Desp.

here's the problem. given all the other evidence (timing, associatives between you two, you two individually etc.) I have reason to believe that you all jumped on me to get me off you. and this isn't exactly a hard card for scum to pull, and could easily be a coverup. I wouldn't put it past you to fake this kind of trajectory/thought process/w.e as scum. so this answer isn't at all reassuring

especially when your whole reason for pushing on me was based solely off the SC wagon. certainly you have to have some better reads you can push towards a lynch on? I find it doubtful of all the people in this game the best option up for lynch is just bc of a jump on a wagon 0.0 mb this is BoP or whatever but meh

sure we have the idea that you and Thor are different people, but idk if that even matters and I prefer not to pay much attention to "hydra dissonance" bc I have no fucking idea what's even alignment indicative wrt that

also, if Thor's goal was just to get a wagon started and he had no strong scumspects, then why the hell was he so dead set on getting me lynched? it doesn't make sense to me. why would he try to strongarm a lynch on someone he's not even sure of when he could just leave it up to you to pick a more reliable target and lynch them?

Why do you think muffin might be town?

I don't necessarily think he's town so much as I don't see any specific reason why he's scum, and I have other people I think are more likely to be scum. his extreme laid-backness reads slight town for me but it's a super light towntell and I'm not putting any faith in it at all, especially from zmuffin. essentially, there's people who have done smth to make me think they're scum and then there's zmuffin who hasn't really done much at all. if we focus on other people then zmuffin might do more and then we could sort him later

I think you're asking the wrong question. IMO it should be "why is zmuffin scum" as opposed to "why might zmuffin be town" 0.0

[Generic]

Hi guys, just a prod dodge while I'm on cos I'm coming off the back of my birthday and haven't got focus.

[zMuffinMan]

Zmuffin is completely non-comittal and his iso yields absolutely no scum-hunting

*shrug*

if by non-committal, you mean i barely give a shit about this game, then you're right. but that's mostly because reading the back-and-forth bitching between some of the players in this game is sapping my motivation

as for lack of scum hunting, meh, your definition of scum hunting must be very different to mine

It shouldn't be too hard for you to believe that I would want to sort you early

mmhmm. and if you really were trying to sort me, i'd expect you to have, you know... actually done something to try and sort me. but you haven't done that and you're not doing that.

Meaning if you're wrong on me, your scumteam is... "a bunch of lurkers"?

the phrasing of this is really off. from your pov, if you're town, you shouldn't be talking about "if" i'm wrong on you. but i digress.

yeah, if you're town, then my scum list would contain primarily "lurkers". that's just how my reads developed this game. i imagine i could be wrong somewhere in my town reads, but i'm not all that concerned about it atm. that'll most likely sort itself out somewhere down the line.

besides, if you think it's strange to suspect primarily lurkers, why are you only calling me out for it? why not, say, maraca, whose most recent scum list is

all

low-content players? or any of the other people whose scum lists include primarily "lurkers"?

I never had a fully formed read on him, so I don't really see your problem with it

that

is

my problem with it, actually. it never looked fully-formed and you guys seemed so confident about him being scum (or at least thor did). but i'm assuming this means your read on him is now fully-formed. what is your pieguy read now?

Did I need to comment further on that?

it was never clear what your actual read on them is (was). so thor now thinks bbq is town?

[zMuffinMan]

He has a town read on me.

i also have a VI read on you

i'm pretty confident about it, too

[KoreanBBQ]

He has a town read on me.

i also have a VI read on you

i'm pretty confident about it, too

Considering the source, I'm not to worried.

[KoreanBBQ]

Brian apparently has scumreads on F-16 and Bro.

Since when have I been scum-reading bro?

Yo'd be surprised how big name games can fall apart. Go look at scummies invitational. Keeping egos off the thread will probably be an important method of town powerkeeping.

Nacho's in this game.

I can't lose ^_^

How about we just lynch you now and get the game over with?

I thought you really wanted him lynched here...I guess not. So why were you not voting F-16 and what do you think of Pie claiming that you "had no time to push"?

[geists]

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

This pings. We haven't played that many games but I don't recall you being this passive about your scum reads and votes.

[Cephrir]

Alright, so I've decided to completely go AWOL from here until my finals are over (aka the 22nd). This is too much of a distraction; my apologies.

If I post here again, consider it a scumclaim and kindly lynch the shit out of me for my own sake.

This means I will not be here if I am run up. After some deliberation I have decided not to claim now. Do with that as you will. I am not currently physically capable of caring. I would leave you my reads but I think they are probably pretty worthless and I think you're better off not rolling with them if I die anyhow.

VOTE: SC for being a smarmy scumbutt. I can hear them cackling with glee that I'm a viable wagon from here.

Good luck today, bye.

[geists]

UNVOTE

[geists]

GiF, holler when you're around. What are you thinking about SC now?

[KoreanBBQ]

I sense fear in some of his posts. Kill him dead!

[geists]

@ ffery and Nat, the vast majority of your reads have no reasons attached to them. The "text" beside the read is merely a statement of how strong it is, whose read it is, and how it developed. I was expecting an actual reads list with your reasons for those reads. Elaborate on

why

you have the reads you do would be much appreciated.

THIS IS NOT A SERIATIM LIST

Town

1. Tammy - p much strongest town read.

Why?

Experiential meta. This is a ffery read, but I don't think Nati disagrees.

4. MC Maraca (Cabd + Ms Marangal) - lots of footnotes but we're here for now. Would like to hear what the point of the crumb gambit was.

Why town? This is where I disagree the strongest. I am unable to see the town motivation in their posting and Cabd gambits usually have an extremely pro-town motivation if he is town. I assume those footnotes will be revealed later.

Cabd's gambits are necessarily subdued early during a normal game. The available room for crazy-gambiting is constrained by the normal rules. In NY 165 his day 2 gambits and gambit-assists all looked totally pro-town to me though in retrospect the scum motivation was more clear. As an RVS gambit this one worked well. It didn't become a joke, which was most of the reason why I kept in mind that the crumbs might be real. I doubt anyone picked up on this, but I thought BRO's reaction was too blatant and decided he likely wasn't the hypothetical mason partner. I had you picked out, though I'd have to look back to find the posts that made me think that. I tested that theory and got back no echoes, and discarded it.

Mara's thing with Tammy is (in general terms) something I've seen her do as town with other players, including myself in the Paradox Prime game. Cabd wasn't too happy with her poking at me in that game, and I'm seeing a similar dynamic between them here. I really think this has gotten overblown, and has become a blight on the game. I fight an urge to replace out every time it comes back up. And I think both parties (and players who keep fanning it) are beating a dead horse.

5. F-16_Fighting_Falcon - Nati feels stronger about this read than ffery does, but both are pretty comfortable at this point.

I want to hear both of your reasons for this as well, especially Nat's.

For me, this read is kinda out of date, and I don't remember Nati's reasons exactly so he'll have to answer that part if he hasn't already. The reasons for my weaker read had to do with the fact that you weren't a strong presence in the game thread for the first 30-40 pages, which is different from what I've seen in other games we've played. I also thought it was odd that you weren't making a strong effort to sort me given that the majority of our games together I've been scum.

9. Stuffed Crust (Mac + Varsoon) - unless GiF says otherwise.

I agree but why? I can understand the appeal to GIF though since he can apparently read Varsoon very well.

Precisely because he can read Varsoon very well. Varsoon's and my playstyles clash pretty strongly and IME the more I interact with him the worse that clash becomes.

13. KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) - this read could go stale fast, though. Right now, they're almost on a par with Tammy as far as ffery is concerned.

Why?

This is one of those reads I feel that clarifying would mean giving up info that would help him fool me in future scum games. :/ It has to do with his reaction testing.

18. DOMO - for ffery this read weakened a little. Listening to Mara for now.

What was the reason for the initial read and why did it weaken now? I had the opposite reaction. I was unsure of his initial posts but I am leaning more towards him being town now.

Some of his expressed paranoia reminded me of his play in NY 165. One of the interesting things about the OZ game to me was how he reached out to players he was paranoid about to try and improve his read. He's right that the game was not a good touchstone for his town game. It was a game about factions and alliances, not town vs scum.

7. Ser Arthur Dayne

pitoli

- we had pitoli in scumpile, but replace-out moves her/SAD up considerably. We really liked his opening. Should probably move him to top tier, but ffery wants more data first.

What about his opening did you like? I played with Arthur before and hydra'd with him once as town in Black Flag Nightless (although that was a really long time ago) and I didn't find his opening similar but it is likely he has a variety of openings as town. I am null on him right now.

It's not a meta-based read. In a general sense, his opening looked like the sort of initial stance a town player would take. He seems less involved now, though, and that concerns me a little.

14. goodmorning - somebody else sort her please :/

I always find her play on the scummy side. Whether I try to get her lynched mostly depends on whether I mislynched her recently.

15. Sakura Hana - could see a scum team with Sakura and pieguyn actually. Nati would move her to not so town.

How so? And this is something you plan to say later, is Sakura scummy by herself, and how?

I thought the 1v1 with pieguy looked forced and perfunctory on both sides, like they were 1v1-ing because it's expected of them. This was particularly on the pieguyn side, which was why I was scumreading him. I assume you'll ask about my read on him further down so I'll save the rest.

19. Cephrir - both of us are seeing more scumrir flickers than cephtown flickers as the day has progressed. Would consider moving him down a grouping.

Can you link the posts that gave you a scumread? I was reading through Ceph-games earlier and want to see if it matches with my results.

I'll do this in a separate post if you still want it. His frustration and AtE has considerably undermined this read.

Not so Town

6. Generic - engagement, comments on game state seem meh to me. Will go with what Nati thinks.

Okay.

This should have been in the maybe-town group.

10. pieguyn

SonOfZeus

- for ~reasons~. Want to see how this develops.

My ~reasons~ came down to stuff that I am used to seeing in his town game. This read has soften considerably based on his later postings. The tone looks like sincere confusion to me, and although my own nacho read has moved townward and I think a lot of pieguy's scumread has to do with Thor. My read of Casso is mostly predicated on Nacho's posts, and I don't expect that to change. Maybe with a few more games I'll have a better sense of how to read Thor.

12. Brian Skies - almost in not enough data, but his edgy tone concerns me. I can see it coming from a town place, maybe, kinda, but not convinced.

20. Desperado - such a huge and intentional meta change feels town, but I dunno. ffery might go for the maybe town group based on the unabashed playstyle change-up. Nati believing des-posts for a second right now

Who would you lynch D1?

Undecided now. I need to revisit my reads list and do some ISOs.

Null or Not enough data

REPLACEMENT

roflcopter

- ffery has one prior game, which was also fast moving. He was town. If he bitched about the thread speed and length, it certainly wasn't the bulk of his input.

17. zMuffinMan

talah

- This doesn't look like his town game so far. Also doesn't look at all like his replace-in scum game. Still evaluating.

These look fine.

Tammy's comments on roflcopter make sense to me. I'll keep them in mind in evaluating his replacement at least for day 1.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

How did the Mason gambit help the scum wincon more? I realize that it didn't really go anywhere, but I don't see how it was scum beneficial.

It was neutral. The second one helped scum.

So my gambit expired a shitton of pages ago, and F-16 chooses to vote me over it..... now that tammy is voting me and others have expressed some sort of interest? Yawn.

Yes, exactly. If nobody else wants to vote you, pushing your lynch would be a waste of effort and best put off for the next day.

This pings. We haven't played that many games but I don't recall you being this passive about your scum reads and votes.

Then you should read through more of my town games to get a better baseline. I explained why I am having trouble nailing down scum through POE. There are just too many people and too many distractions.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Geists, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you are very quick to criticise and scumread anyone who attacks MC but you haven't said anything at all about Mara's attack. You say you are conflict averse but you haven't critisized the instigator of the conflict. You are merely pushing at anyone that calls them out. That doesn't seem genuine to me. It seems as though in your mind, MC can create as much conflict as they want but anyone that calls them out and scumreads them for creating that conflict is discredited or scumread which doesn't make any sense.