NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[BROseidon]

11. BROseidon - Less coasting, but I'm a little concerned about the lack of parallel thought that we

usually

have when we're both town.

You mean like in Xenogears?

key word bolded.

Hence "maybe town" rather than "not very town".

Fair enough.

[KoreanBBQ]

I was going to make a scumteam A and a scumteam B

Why?

Was this a Nero or Gif post?

Nero but why does it matter?

[BROseidon]

If it were GiF I'd be having a conversation with him about that post.

[geists]

Town: Desp, Bert, Muffin, Tammy

Scum: DOMO, Ceph, MC?, geists?, Casso?, SAD?

Why do you have Desp and Muffin in your townpile?

Where is GM? Where is Sakura? Where is SC? Where is BBQ?

I'm like 50% gutreading 50% sheeping Desp right now.

SC I'm still torn about b/c last time I saw Vars-scum I misread it horribly.

BBQ I haven't read the vast majority of their posts b/c those posts are in the like 45 pages that I've skipped.

These reads still current??

[BROseidon]

Bert down, MC up, you up, F-16 down.

Imply a null category in the middle.

[Empire]

Day 1, Votecount 57

Stuffed Crust (6)

-

Sakura Hana, DOMO, Cephrir, KoreanBBQ, geists, Desperado

Casso the King of Seals (3)

-

zMuffinMan, goodmorning, pieguyn

MC Maraca (2)

-

Tammy, Stuffed Crust

MafiaSSK (1)

-

Generic

Bert (1)

-

Norlkaz

Sakura Hana (1)

-

Casso the King of Seals

geists (1)

-

Bert

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)

-

MC Maraca

Not Voting (4)

-

MafiaSSK, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Ser Arthur Dayne, BROseidon

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch! Deadline is on December 26th at 3:45 PM EST or in (expired on 2013-12-26 16:44:27)

Mod Notes

-

Varsoon head of Stuffed Crust V/LA until January 25th. Tammy is V/LA until the 23rd. F-16_Fighting_Falcon is V/LA until the 31st.

[Nero Cain]

Why am I pissing you off Fery?

[KoreanBBQ]

Why am I pissing you off Fery?

[geists]

Why am I pissing you off Fery?

Post 2581 and thereabouts.

[MC Maraca]

Bro

vote

F16

[MC Maraca]

because, he is literally the only one, who has had people suspecting who hasn't had a wagon grown on him.

all game, he's done shit, and he's been treating me like scum without actually calling me scum, inflating my push, making everything I've done seem trivial (even when it wasn't) and something newbish

and degraded every single thing Cabd and I have done.

[MC Maraca]

The scumteam is:
Goodmorning
Bert
Cephrir
Tammy
Casso

I was going to make a scumteam A and a scumteam B, but these 5 are all together.
VOTE: Bert

you think our mason claim is fake, but don't think we're scum?

why?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: F-16

[MC Maraca]

Who is pick for a scumteam?

stuffed crust, maraca, geists, domo, dayne

Because Mara scum doesn't know how to mask partner interactions,

and Marascum doesn't know how to make townies look like they are her partner in the event she flips town.

Cabdscum is even worse in regards to that, and doesn't know how to play scum, period.

ohwait...

what the fuck is this

particularly the bold

sarcastic comments of a woman who was getting her scum-game shat on.

@Desp:

can you explain maraca scum? mara is weirding me out a bit but she did that last time I played her so I can't tell shit > <

their reads are shit and mara's aggressiveness is extremely offputting after hydraing with her recently

@Desp:

can you explain maraca scum? mara is weirding me out a bit but she did that last time I played her so I can't tell shit > <

Desp can't read me for shit, either.

meanwhile, every game I play against him (and with him) I get better and better at reading him.

do we even have another completed game together beyond Wingate?

My aggression shouldn't be off-putting considering the biggest reason I wasn't aggressive in our game was because Our PR made us dying a very, very, very bad thing. I did whatever I could to not draw attention to us

also

Khan

and

Thor and (I think it was) Pitoli

just checked

in always sunny town-you remarks to town-me that we have a terrible track record of reading each other

in walking dead town us read each other correctly

in maniacal town us read each other incorrectly until i was (falsely) conftowned based on bad setup spec

sounds like you just made some shit up, mara. why would you do that?

Sunny was our second game together, so yeah I stated that.

Walking dead, I'm pretty sure you were calling our slot town based on Neroposts. I am also pretty sure that you had stated that I wasn't that easy of a person to read.

Maniacal, Mala was reading you as scum, I was ambivalent (I think).

all those games just prove that you really can't read me.

also, Walking dead, I had correctly pinged you as town.

@F16: You liar tell when stating that you're town but then don't liar tell that you don't know who scum are.

@Desp: What's the MC case? I've been townreading them all game and I get back to a bunch of "MC is scum" posts.

VOTE: MC

bad gambit, bad reads, weird mara blatantly lying about our meta to discredit me. really her whole reaction to me putting them in my scum team was off base:

Who is pick for a scumteam?

stuffed crust, maraca, geists, domo, dayne

Because Mara scum doesn't know how to mask partner interactions, and Marascum doesn't know how to make townies look like they are her partner in the event she flips town.

Cabdscum is even worse in regards to that, and doesn't know how to play scum, period.

ohwait...

@Desp:

can you explain maraca scum? mara is weirding me out a bit but she did that last time I played her so I can't tell shit > <

Desp can't read me for shit, either.

meanwhile, every game I play against him (and with him) I get better and better at reading him.

This isn't a case, love.

I had a huge wall going and then the server decided I don't need to wall.


Desp, why call me scum and then leave GM out of the "partner" discussion when I've spent a shitton of time calling her town to anyone that asks?

lol what

1) didn't you just get done telling me how sooper awsum you are at leaving fake partner tells?
2) why do you think my scumteam has anything to do with your interactions with the other people in it?

Unvote
Vote: MC Maraca

Cabd asked you that, I made the earlier remarks at making those fake tells.

[Mac]

hmmm??

[Mac]

claim: shield?

or doc?

or vig

maybe?

perhaps am gambiting?

maybe I'm drunk!

yeaaAH

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Vote: F-16

[Generic]

I started to have concerns about f16 with the recent posts, I could feel a sense of flailing to them.

But what's more disconcerting is the AMOUNT of naked votes suddenly moving over to him with no noticeable indication from these people they were swayin that way.

F16 is more likely town based on this odd wagon push alone, before I return to the strong early play.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This at least gave me the motivation to develop reads more aggressively. In the event that I am dead before D2, I'd better give the best reads possible.

Besides me, there are 19 players left. First, let's get the obvious town out of the way. I don't think anyone really is considering lynching these players. I'll provide reasoning for why they are town but it is a low priority and I have limited time at least this day phase.

The obvious townies

1) Tammy

- TOWN - This is obvious (Nobody disagrees).

2) geists

- TOWN - Again obvious (Some people disagree so I'll provide reasoning upon request. Not in danger of being lynched so that is a low priority).

3) Bert

- TOWN - Playing pretty strongly like town-Bert and everyone who read his posts agrees that he is town. (Only Llamarble disagrees so I'll provide reasoning upon request).

---

Moving on, that leaves 16 players. I'll start with my biggest townread that I believe may potentially be lynched down the road.

Townreads

4) pieguyn

- I found Pieguyn's behavior in this game very townish starting with his aggressive replace-in and push on Sakura. While it may have been unresolved, he does come back to it later and the paranoia is evident based on the fact that he wonders whether he let go of Sakura too soon. Let's take a quick look at Pieguyn's town and scum games to verify his behavior.

TOWN:

Mini 1522: AA MFA - In this game and other towngames, Pieguyn comes across tonally as very aggressive and and is determined to get on top of the thought process behind other player's votes, reactions, and suspicions. His immediate primary push on Sakura and secondary one on Brian are indicative of this and his aggressive questioning of Sakura in 131 and follow-up in post 132 where he asks Sakura's opinions on Brian and Brian's on Sakura read very similar tonally to his normal towngame. He is also very focussed on meta and tries to compare meta experiences from players that have played with each other before which is shown through his push on Cabd asking for reads in post 151 and asking for Geists opinion on Brian in post 139 as related to a previous game they played together. Moving on, his push on TNE in post 159 shows the same aggressive tone that is absent in his scumgames and the rest of his ISO supports that to the point where he is so aggressive, he is called "vitriolic" by another player.

Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night - His first major back-and-forth occurs with Varsoon starting around post 99 and continuing for several pages. It is notable that his pushes are geared mostly towards determining the affiliation of the player he is tunneling with back-and-forth debate being the favored strategy. Pieguyn's appeals to other players to discuss his scumread are also notable traits with him asking Morph the Cat what they thought of Varsoon in post 122 while post 131 is a direct appeal to Morph based an Varsoon's abrasiveness which at that point, Pieguyn thought was part of his scumgame possibly based on a minor misunderstanding with Morph. The debate strategy continues in post 126 where he pushes Varsoon while continuing to refute his aguments and some clear argumentative flourishes round them out such as the "you are not getting away with this." I deduce that the motivation for those flourishes is to increase pressure on his scumread and create a sense of hopelessness at which point the person he is scumreading crumbles and likely is lynched. Pieguyn being a generally debate-happy player consistently engages in back-and-forths which is shown through his responses to zMuffinman in post 165 when zMuffinMan swoops in to save Varsoon (Muffin was scum and Pie v Varsoon was TvT). Pieguyn accuses Muffin of being scum. This shows a mentality of being very aware of his surrroundings and on the lookout for who could be alternative scumreads along with his main scumread. Pieguyn is generally wary of townreads accusing him as shown when Cabd throws a vote on him in post 406, he immediately starts to doubt his townread on Morph and declares that his townread might be going away. This is likely due to the shock of someone townreading him quickly changing their read and the paranoia that a scum player is engineering a lynch on him. It is important to note that the reaction was one of disbelief but at the same time, it is reasonable and inquisitive. Pieguyn's general progression from gambits and gamestate changing events is to call for a reads-list from the players involved as shown in post 468. This shows a mindset of scumhunting through getting into the minds of the other players and seeing how their reads evolved. His suspicion changes smoothly in 471 where he goes to attacking Waynegg for Waynegg's attack on zMuffin even though Pieguyn was scumreading zMuffin before. This smooth flow of suspicion matches with his game here. His reads list in post 880 again shows the changes in his reads over time which occur very naturally with interactions with other players.

SCUM:

Touhou Upick - In this game, Pieguyn is scum with GuyInFreezer and DakeDekane. He starts off by voting Sakura Hana in his post 54 and moves onto questioning her about her townread on Varsoon and asks why she always townreads him in games they play together. I was most taken aback by how mild the questioning is here and the debating nature of his playstyle is very muted in the initial interaction with Sakura. I conclude that the most plausible reason for the lack of conviction in his attack is that he doesn't actually believe that Sakura is scum - which is true. A pattern exclusive to this game that I didn't find to the same extent in his towngames is the unnecessary focus on himself as shown in post 93 and followed through on post 119 where he comes across as very self-conscious and trying to fix his image where as in his Touhou towngame, most of his questions and requests for feedback were focussed on getting info about his target as opposed to an inward focus. Pieguyn also exhibits a behavioral pattern common to many competent scum players in that his FOSses and suspicions are based on ideals. His post 183 shows a very idealistic perspective of what players should or shouldn't do telling Sakura that she shouldn't be voting people for contradicting themselves and saying that "

from a town perspective, that doesn't make any sense.

" The changes in his reads in this game are far less natural than in his towngames where he unvotes Sakura and moves onto Bitmap in post 193. Pieguyn as town is rarely content with simple responses and the read switches usually occur upon getting a bigger scumread and are dependent on awareness of the gamestate. As such, the switch here seems at odds with Pie as town. Other highlights include the higher frequency of switches in his scumreads as well as an increased focussed on questioning, defense, and explanation of his action as opposed to accusing his scumread as shown in post 528 and post 547. As mentioned by Pie in 2045 of this game, this seems to have been a bad scumgame so I would say that the differences are more glaring here than in his other scumgames.

Mini 1510 (Fast and Furious) - Pieguyn is partnered with Grimgroove and Marquis. His first big push starts off in post 97 where he pushes Slandaar. The reasoning for the push stands out to me since it is based on something that isn't really scummy - mostly a "contradictory" mode of thought. Moving onto his post 134, I see some parallels to his towngame where he asks for feedback on his pushes from Garmr asking "

what's your thoughts on my list?

" The major differences here include that he is asking for feedback on his own reads as opposed to reads on his scumreads which ties into the focus on internal behavior I see in his scumgames. The same post also contains a lot of questioning and hesitant pushing whereas I see Pieguyn as town be a lot more confident about his pushes. A minor but interesting thing that I noticed was his constant use of "IMO" as shown in posts 148, 164, 230, 239. I don't see it that much in his towngames. It could be nothing but based on the internal focus on how he comes across in his scumgames, it may very well be relevant. I'll also add that asking for other's opinions seem to be a trend in Pie scum games as well so not much can be read into it although the specific way in which he does it is different as town and scum and he comes across as much more aggressive tonally. A look into post 540 where he asks his partner Grimgroove shows this to be the case, so we shouldn't be reading that much into it or at least making it a priority.

Now let's look at Pieguyn's behavior

here

.

He starts off with his reaction test vote on Sakura and a readslist from which he solicits feedback. He also switches out from Sakura and onto KBBQ pretty quickly and I didn't see a lot of town in his initial posts. However, his push on DOMO felt somewhat similar to his back and forths with Sakura in AA and Varsoon in Touhou. It was a little milder than both of those and he tries to understand DOMO's points more but I also thought that the flourishes that he uses to drive home his point gave away an inherently agressive tone such as with "

hi there's so much scum-tone in this post it's not funny. why so defensive?

" in 925. I also really like his 1064 which matches up with Town-Pieguyn meta pretty closely in that he asks me to comment about his suspect while pushing on him. I also like his 1076 where he pushes zMuffin on a scumslip. His 1176 where he asks BRO for thoughts on DOMO seems to match up with his town-meta pretty closely as well. His 1471 and 1479 further support the argument that he is town. His later argument with King of the Seals of Casso and attempts to persuade others to join that wagon makes a lot of sense from town-Pie. These in addition to the points I made in 2694 about cross-checking reads and I feel fairly sure that this is Pieguyn as town although the initial posts bothered me a little because I didn't see the same aggression but it is minor enough to not worry before LYLO.

@ zMuffinman, I'd actually like to discuss what you noticed about Pieguyn and your thoughts about my posts about how he comes across tonally - I feel that he is a lot more energetic and has more conviction in his pushes as town.

---

That leaves the following players below. I think I'll probably go with Desperado, Generic, and zMuffinman tomorrow. I'll be busy most of the day so it should be tomorrow night.

Desperado
Generic
zMuffinMan
MC Maraca
Casso the King of Seals
MafiaSSK
Stuffed Crust
BROseidon
Norlkaz
KoreanBBQ
goodmorning
Sakura Hana
Ser Arthur Dayne
DOMO
Cephrir

[Minions]

Please start with me, I always look forward to a character assassination

[Generic]

Please start with me, I always look forward to a character assassination

And this is why I'm the only known face of that hydra.

That's from me.

[Norlkaz]

Tammy is town.
VOTE: Goodmorning

[zMuffinMan]

@ zMuffinman, I'd actually like to discuss what you noticed about Pieguyn and your thoughts about my posts about how he comes across tonally - I feel that he is a lot more energetic and has more conviction in his pushes as town.

mm, yeah, kind of. the thing i mentioned with tone wasn't so much to do with his pushes, but behavioural things outside of that. "energetic" is kind of along the lines i'm thinking, but it's more a confidence thing - as scum i get the feeling he lacks confidence in what he's saying; as town, even when he's unsure about stuff, there's this kind of confident tone in the way he approaches things. it's hard to really describe this because i'm using an ongoing game as a reference here. the last few sentences of your breakdown of the touhou upick game were things that stood out for me as well. the thing you said about being content with certain responses is kind of what i'm getting at with the confidence stuff - there's this sort of feeling that he doesn't believe his own bullshit when he's scum

i'm really bad at describing this sort of thing

[zMuffinMan]

hey nacho

why did you vote sakura

[Casso the King of Seals]

Sakura and pieguy are where I'm leaning atm.

either i'm super bad at reading pieguy or he's town here

if casso doesn't happen, i could get behind a sakura wagon, but really, it would be more of a policy lynch than anything for me

i think i have too many town reads atm

No you're probably fine

Read changed?

Muffin lower, cephrir higher, Maraca and morning higher, bro higher, Sakura lower?

Or maybe not.

And unfortunately I can't even do it

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Yeah, I'd be comfortable with my vote here, too.

No, that was sarcasm re: muffin man.