Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Glork]

Vote: AndrewS

[Glork]

FoS: CES

for trying to coax me into a bad vote. Thesp is obv pro-town.

[Glork]

Vote: Thesp

FoS

Thor should know better.

[Glork]

Why is that, Zindie?

[Glork]

This is crap.



Zindaras, I demand that, for the good of the town, you unvote Thesp now.

FOS: ZINDARAS, CES

[Glork]

Glrok, a vote for Thesp is a vote for progress!

Yeah. Progress for the scums.

Unvote,

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

FoS: Zindaras, Patrick

[Glork]

Why the italics?

Emphasis, obviously.

[Glork]

Patrick is town, Glork's scum. It's fairly obvious already.

:Goodposting obv:

If you agree with MBL's assessment of the game thus far, why are you not voting me?

[Glork]

Glork's scum. It's fairly obvious already.

Alright, I'll bite.


Why am I scum?

[Glork]

Who is?

Pretty sure CES fits the description of "the play."

[Glork]

I was asking Fritz, though.

And I'm answering anyway.



However, AndrewS is once again looking like a brilliant alternative.

[Glork]

Hey Fritz.

Has Glork ever led you astray?

[Glork]

Also,

Unvote, Vote: AndrewS

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: CES

[Glork]

Sheesh. This town is so bandwagon.

[Glork]

Guys we should No Lynch.



Just sayin'.

[Glork]

Honest answer?

Depends on the game, the players, and how I feel at the time.

[Glork]

EBWODP: But that suggestion of No-Lynch was totally serious, I assure you.

Unvote CES, FOS/IGMEOY: CES
Vote: No Lynch

[Glork]

It gives us information from night actions!!

[Glork]

But we're more likely to kill a townie that way! It's only Day One, and we have nothing to go on!!

[Glork]

I'm trying to think who Glork reminds me of in this game (I don't think it's Glork). Whoever he's behaving like I don't think he's being particularly helpful.

FoS

Glork is Glork and nothing more.

[Glork]

I feel Glork is just making a point with his nolynch thing.

O RLY?

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: MGM

for not paying attention.

[Glork]

I'd kill every night if I were vig.


I'd be all "BLAM! BANG! Yer dead!!"

[Glork]

AndrewS and Glork made a bad suggestion. Whether they meant it is irrelevant. Suggesting it is scummy, following through on it by making the vote is scummier.

Alright, let's take an informal poll?


Who here thinks I was *actually* serious about my No-Lynch suggestion?

[Glork]

Glork doing the same when he knew it was a stupid move is scummier.

So what you're saying is that I, knowing that AndrewS picked up flak for voting No Lynch, and even participating in the ensuing bandwagon on him, decided to vote No-Lynch for some ulterior motive (presumably to push through this day without a lynch)?


Yeah. Right.

[Glork]

igmeoy:Thesp

FoS: IH

[Glork]

Not really, IH. Scum will staunchly defend townies at time to make themselves look good. In fact, if Ether turns up scum, at this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that AndrewS is

pro-town

.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Ether

[Glork]

I don't really understand the Ether hate, and I would quite like Glork to explain his last vote.

Nah, I'm good.

[Glork]

That's not really Wifom, it's making a judgement on what we think scum are more likely to do, which is the game.

Winner.


If you really get down to it, Adele, there's an element of WIFOM in almost every aspect of Mafia. Can we possibly discern Ether's or AndrewS's alignments for certain at this point in the game? Absolutely not. But

experience

tells me that players who are as experienced and talented as the ones in this game are less likely to staunchly defend a scumbuddy so quickly or so willingly early in Day One. That's not to say that it is an

impossibility

, but to me, it just doesn't make sense.

[Glork]

Glork: Way too bandwagonish. He's playing one of his "crazy" games, with all kinds of random stuff. However, odd bandwagoning isn't usually part of that. Has been on both of the 3-post 3-vote bandwagons I really didn't like.

viewtopic.php?t=3684&userposts=1333

[Glork]

Zindaras: it's pretty easy to get a read on Thesp. Just follow him blindly. If the town's losing, he's probably scum. If you just won the game, well, then he's probably town.

Dammit, he figured out my strategy!

[Glork]

yea, honestly we need a sweet wagon

Alright, Fritz, I got one for us.

Original Roll String: 1d16

1 16-Sided Dice: (8) = 8

(16 is No Lynch, obvobvobvobv)

[Glork]

Shit, no, we can't lynch Thesp. Let's try that again.

Original Roll String: 1d16

1 16-Sided Dice: (15) = 15

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Spectrumvoid

Good find on ScumVoid, Fritz.

[Glork]

Bandwagoning isn't something where you can simply point to one other game and say "Here, I did it there, too!" It's pretty gosh-darn scummy in my book, and I'm not going to let that tell go.

Zindie. If anybody knows how absurd I can behave, it's you. I'm curious to know why you're choosing to attack my play in this game, when you've pretty much ignored it in games past.

[Glork]

I also love your "this is scummy except when I do it" attitude. At least you had the testicular fortitude to point out your own hypocrisy.

[Glork]

Either that or when he's useful he gets killed so he tried to be unhelpful for a day or two so he can actually make some endgames.

This one made me lol.

[Glork]

The dice never lie.

[Glork]

Crap. Valid point.

The dice only lie when I say that they lie.

[Glork]

unfounded unholy alliance

This is clearly a bunch of crap.


The alliance is founded on the notion that Thesp and I not only kick ass, but are probably pro-town. It's also more holy than unholy. I fight for justice and righteousness!

[Glork]

This day is going on waaaaaaay too long.

yea, honestly we need a sweet wagon

Unvote, Vote: Spectrumvoid

Good find on ScumVoid, Fritz.

Who says this is for discussion purposes, SV?

[Glork]

In all seriousness, at this point, I think I'd be okay with an SV lynch.


Not gonna lie, I'm a little apathetic at the moment. I wanna see some

action!

[Glork]

Reason?

I'd say it probably has to do with the fact that you're saying that there is "little choice but to vote for one of the

Votecount:

leaders."

I myself don't like that attitude. Granted, the deadline was only 3+ days away, but that's more than enough time to find a wagon that we can actually agree on.

I'm going to re-read this game in the not-too-distant future. In the meantime, I'm content with my SV vote.

[Glork]

Just wondering... anyone wants me to claim?

Hum. I hadn't thought about that. Your perogative, I guess. You hit Lynch -2, and you're currently at 5 votes. Personally, I'd say "not yet," but if you think it's necessary, do whatever you feel like doing.

[Glork]

Eh... not so much a fallacy as a bad strategy or train of thought. Still, I'm wondering if it's a deliberate "mistake" on Patrick's part.


I don't think AndrewS is particularly scummy. I don't even necessarily think that his wagoners were scum, as I would have been

very

surprised to see him actually get lynched based on the NL suggestion. Slap-on-the-wrist and an overall IGMEOY feeling is about what I expected. And, to be frank, that's more or less what happened.

[Glork]

Thesp, what do you think of SV's paraphrases of some of Andrew's posts?

[Glork]

Thesp, what do you think of SV's paraphrases of some of Andrew's posts?

I find them very funny.

Do you find them scummy?

[Glork]

In and of themselves, not particularly.

So you don't think that this:

Another Andrew paraphrase: I've been holding my vote because I want a chance to bus my scumbuddy and look innocent tomorrow.

looks the least bit propagandic or falsely incriminating?

[Glork]

Hm. Fairly provable, I suppose.

Unvote, Vote: AndrewS

You should vig IH.

[Glork]

I feel like wagoning the living crap out of him.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: MGM

Still vig IH.

[Glork]

CES makes a reasonable point.





I would support an Adele vigging at this point, too.

[Glork]

PWNZD!

[Glork]

UNVOTE, VOTE: ANDREWS


======[]
HAMMAH!!!

Yes, that was completely necessary.

[Glork]

I like my

Vote: MGM

from earlier.

[Glork]

Hi.

[Glork]

Bandwagon?

At most, two or three people voted him the other day. I am currently the only person who has voted for him today.


Please pay attention, Adele.

[Glork]

FoS: Thesp

Pro-town Thesp is

NEVER

wrong! >=[

[Glork]

Patrick, you need to learn to read between the lines.


My initial vote for AndrewS (Post 5) was a random vote at the start of the game. I moved off of him and onto CES also as a joke (for telling me to vote for Thesp -- Post 39). When AndrewS made his No Lynch suggestion and then claimed it was "to get reactions," I mentioned him as an alternative, my first serious insinuation that I found him scummy (Post 72). However, after the subsequent wagon and Ether's defense of him, I had changed my mind with regards to AndrewS. I also voted Ether for what I felt was a somewhat out-of-place defense of him. I mentioned to IH that scum will, at times, defend a townie who is in trouble to promote themselves in the eyes of the town (Post 202). (So when you asked why I was voting Ether and I said "Nah, I'm good," it was because I had already explained myself; I felt you just weren't paying enough attention to what was going on.) I then voted AndrewS basically to secure a lynch. He was the biggest wagon at the time, and getting hit with No Lynch at a deadline didn't seem like a very desirable situation. So yes, even though I felt AndrewS was probably pro-town, I went with his wagon in the end.

The random-vote situation was... well, very odd, to say the least. The first die-roll came up pointing to Thesp, which was coincidental as I'd been joking about Thesp's "obvious pro-towniness" throughout the early part of D1. When I switched, it happened to end up on somebody I mildly suspected anyway... also rather coincidental. I expected the die roll to end up on... well, some random person... so that I could vote them, look like a gigantic goofball, then get back to actually playing the game. As luck would have it, the second die-roll landed somewhere where I was actually happy with my vote. I expressed that later when I said that I thought I'd be okay with lynching her (Post 296). What I much more surprising is not the fact that I "started a bandwagon" with a random vote, but the fact that it actually became a bandwagon at all. Had my vote ended up on somebody without any votes at the time -- say, Zindaras -- I doubt anybody would have jumped aboard. I would expect scum to very willingly jump onto this bandwagon: its foundation was based on a random action by another player, it already had a couple of votes (Fritzler and someone else, I believe). It was really the perfect bandwagon to push to near-lynch. And it just so happened to be on a power role.

Basically, I understand where you're coming from, Patrick, but I feel that my play -- like Fritz's, so much of the time -- has a method behind the madness. You just have to look for it.


Currently, my top two suspects are MGM and Ether.
Ether, for her defense of AndrewS (which I still think was a little odd, though I can't place exactly why), and for Post 253, in which she responds to my joke-FoS:IH by seriously agreeing with me on a point that, truth be told, I don't even understand. She also makes a passing remark about MGM that feels scumbuddy-ish, saying she "doesn't like" MGM, but that she likes IH less.
I initially voted MGM yesterday for "not paying attention." He voted for me, saying that my No-Lynch suggestion was scummy and that I knew it was a bad idea when I thought it was quite obvious that I was joking around (though apparently Adele thought I was serious, too. Out of curiosity... did anybody

else

think that my suggestion was serious?) His Post 173 doesn't really sit well with me either. He explains it by saying that he felt the attackers of the bandwagons were opportunistic scum -- much as I felt that Ether was scum for attacking the AndrewS bandwagon. Yet he's still keeping his vote on me instead of looking to put it on one of these wagon-dismantlers. It seems to me that MGM is half-trying to defend himself and his wagoning of me, and that he's half-trying to point fingers elsewhere without actually pointing any fingers... if you know what I mean. Post 331 also seems quite fishy-fishy. He says that SV should claim, but when IH puts the -2 vote on SV, he goes ahead with his vote for AndrewS a mere three hours later. Help prod one player to a claim while already jumping on the next best wagon. Tricky. Quite tricky. Not tricky enough.


EDIT: Actually, I just found something that I really don't like about Thesp. His "This day has gone on waaaaaaaaay too long" comment (Post 256) came a mere

nine

days after the start of Day One (Fri, Jan 26 to Sun, Feb 04). Thesp, would you mind explaining why you think slightly over a week makes a day that's "way too long"?

FoS: Thesp

for real now.



So yeah, I'm looking at MGM, then Ether, then possibly Thesp or Adele, maybe even CDB. I'm not quite sure yet.

People who are pro-town: Patrick, Nightfall, probably Fritzler. Short list so far; this town has been pretty scummy as a whole.

[Glork]

No, you were fishing for information. You were asking one player (who you didn't even really suspect) to claim despite subsequently pushing another wagon. I don't believe the "because I wanted to derail the wagon" bit for an instant. If SV hadn't claimed a confirmable role such as Vigilante, I doubt it would have derailed the wagon at all.


CES: Mind explaining the FoSes?

[Glork]

No vote at the moment?

[Glork]

Interesting response.
I don't mind your hammer of Andrew. I would likely have done it myself to secure a lynch, rather than no lynching.
One thing I don't like still, however, was your vote for Andrew in post 349. That was the one I questioned, to which you replied "I want to wagon the living crap out of him". This vote came shortly after you had said that you didn't find Andrew scummy. At that time, I think the deadline was in 5 days. So there was no real reason to narrow down the lynch that early, especially after you critisised me for doing something similar earlier, a mere 3 days before a deadline.

That particular vote was me going a little overboard with the ridiculous behavior. I take full responsibility for its apparent scumminess.

Hmm. I'm mildly surprised to see this from you. You've surely played with Thesp alot more than me, and know his playstyle well. I've seen him say similar things in several games, even when it's far too early to be ending a day. I tend to see Thesp as someone who decides on a scum or two, and then stubbornly won't shift for ages, while repeating over and over than that person obviously needs to be killed ASAP. Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses. I don't agree with his philosophy on day lengths, but I've seen it from him before as town.

I've played with Thesp maybe 2-3 times, but I've never seen him demand that we end a day so quickly. It seemed out-of-place to me.
Whether it's a regular thing for him or not, I'd still like him to explain why he made that post.

[Glork]

Wow. MBL's assessment of the game is surprisingly similar to my own.


I might have to review my own suspicions. :/

[Glork]

Question, MBL: If you think Adele is most likely of anyone to be scum, why are you voting Thesp and merely FoSing Adele?

[Glork]

Nightfall: We've played a few, but the only one that really rings a bell have was one into which I replaced (Best of the Internet). If you care to ask anybody, the behavior that I exhibited D1 is fairly typical for me regardless of what alignment I have. I like stirring the pot early and then getting into the muck and seeing what I can dig up.

[Glork]

I think I typed that before I noticed Thesp's failure to contest the IH vig, which is the most glaring event in the game thus far. Read Adele's comments about sv after her claim though and you'll see why Adele stood out as scummiest before that observation about Thesp.

How, and in what order, did you go about compiling the results of your analysis?

[Glork]

MBL: Okay, that sounds fair enough. I was looking for a possible inconsistency in your response, but it seems to flesh out well enough for me.


Adele/MGM: I don't owe anybody an apology, and I don't think I was the least bit out-of-line (or word-twisting) by accusing MGM of fishing for information. What we know is that MGM suggested that Spectrumvoid claim. Whether he was doing it "in the interests of her survival" as MGM claims, or because he was interested to see if she reallly was a power-role (and thus a prime candidate to kill and test for the existence of a Doc) is not something that can be shown one way or another at this time. Obviously, I am leaning heavily towards the latter.

Also, MGM, I would debate the point about townies not asking if someone wants them to claim. Claiming is always relevant, whether you're a power role or not, and I

do

see townies talk about claiming before (or without) actually claiming. I think that power roles are somewhat more

likely

to talk about it in the manner that SV did, but it was far from certain that she was power, which also makes me think that scum would've wanted to get that bit of information for sure one way or another.

I also feel that, if you thought that SV was a power-role and didn't want her lynched, you would have stepped up and actually

defended

her, rather than just telling her to claim. If you think she's power, and other players hadn't picked up on that fact, wouldn't it be in your best interest to derail her wagon without simply outing her status as a power role?


I mean, I already know that MGM and Adele are probably scum together, but seriously. They're making my job a wee bit too easy.



Thesp, I want to hear from you soon. I want you to answer my previous question, and I'd like you to comment on a handful of players at the core of the discussion. I'd also like you to address MBL's theory head-on. It interests me, though it's not really why I've got you on my list.

[Glork]

So, just to be crystla clear: Nine days is "extremely long," in your opinion?

[Glork]

modprods: Ether, Zindy please. Day's nearly nine days old already and we haven't lynched anyone...

Ether's in London for a week... I think she said she'd have some access, though.


Stoof, you should track her down and meet her.

[Glork]

If this was face to face mafia Glork and I would be lost in each other's eyes, so by not posting we're roleplaying. I can't speak for anyone else.

Yea, what he said.

[Glork]

This exchange amuses me.



Thank you, that is all.

[Glork]

Thesp: why aren't you voting for Glrok?

Actually, I don't really think

any

of the current votees are more likely to be scum.

Minor FoS: CES

[Glork]

I have noticed it, MBL. I think that Thesp's behavior is more alarming because it seems like he wants to curtail himself a little bit so that he doesn't end up picking up too much attention (suspicion?) for having been too wrong. He

is

on my short list, afterall.

[Glork]

Confirm Vote: MGM[/b\

[Glork]

Confirm Vote: MGM

, too.

[Glork]

Because I'm more confident that you're scum now than I was before you made your previous two posts.

[Glork]

This is interesting. And very strange.

Glork thinks MGM, Thesp, Ether, Adele, possibly CDB are scummy.
Thesp finds CDB scummiest.
Adele supports Glork's suspicions of Ether (though I find it odd that she's not voting for anybody... any reason for the lack of a vote, Adele?)
CDB find Ether, Thesp, and Glork scummy.
MGM finds Glork, CDB scummy.
Ether is gone for a couple more days, but I think I remember her suspecting MGM yesterday.

This is probably the strangest set of interactive suspicions I have ever seen. It actually makes me wonder if maybe the Mafia is just sitting back and letting a bunch of townies rip each other apart. At this point, I would currently guess that only 1-2 scumbags are in this group of six. To couple that, there are probably 1-2 lurkerscum amongst us.

Meanwhile, Zindaras and Nightfall can't be bothered to post, and Patrick has been useless since his early attack on me. And I'm still bothered by the fact that Adele is openly slinging around opinions (that seem to be borrowed from other players) but isn't terribly concerned with actually

doing anything

with that vote of hers. It's like she wants to see which set of suspicions develops the most. I halfway expect her to grab some posts from somewhere and go "yeah, Glork looks scummy!" since I seem to be the bandwagon of the hour.


To answer your point, CDB: I'm not asking you to not be suspicious of me for it, and I certainly don't expect to "get away" with anything. I simply acknowledge that it was scummy. I don't have a response or explanation of it... it is what it is. Do you have any other reasons to suspect me, or is it the fact that I made one bad vote partway through D1 and didn't try to make up some bullshit excuse?

[Glork]

This is probably the strangest set of interactive suspicions I have ever seen. It actually makes me wonder if maybe the Mafia is just sitting back and letting a bunch of townies rip each other apart. At this point, I would currently guess that only 1-2 scumbags are in this group of six. To couple that, there are probably 1-2 lurkerscum amongst us.

So you think I'm pro-town?

I'm reserving judgment on you for the time being. I do find you less likely to be scum than the other five people I named earlier, obviously. My list is currently MGM, then Thesp/Adele (they're pretty interchangable), then CDB, then Ether... Then most other players.

[Glork]

This is probably the strangest set of interactive suspicions I have ever seen. It actually makes me wonder if maybe the Mafia is just sitting back and letting a bunch of townies rip each other apart. At this point, I would currently guess that only 1-2 scumbags are in this group of six. To couple that, there are probably 1-2 lurkerscum amongst us.

So you think I'm pro-town?

I'm reserving judgment on you for the time being. I do find you less likely to be scum than the other five people I named earlier, obviously. My list is currently MGM, then Thesp/Adele (they're pretty interchangable), then CDB, then Ether... Then most other players.

Another post by CDB attempting to appear more active.

Two questions:
1) What is the difference between "being more active" and "trying to appear more active"?
2) How

exactly

does CDB fall into the latter category, as opposed to the former? Quote/Cite specific examples, please.

[Glork]

Huh, strange. I thought my post didn't go through, so I decided to add the second part and post again. I guess the first one

did

go through, though. Oh wells.

[Glork]

I'm reserving judgment on you for the time being. I do find you less likely to be scum than the other five people I named earlier, obviously. My list is currently MGM, then Thesp/Adele (they're pretty interchangable), then CDB, then Ether... Then most other players.

You misunderstood my question. You said you thought there were 1-2 scum in that group of six and 1-2 lurkerscum. Seeing as we only have 3 scum and I fit neither category, that suggests you think I'm town.

No... I would actually put you down as a lurker. You've posted with reasonable frequency, but you never explained your FoSes or your vote on me. I feel that you're in a very similar category with CDB (who fits my list of 6 -- me and my five top suspects -- and in the "potential lurkerscum" category). I see you both as actively lurking. I am not getting the distinct CES-town vibe that I've gotten from you in the past, but I am not getting a glaringly scummy vibe either.

That said, I could definitely see CES+Thesp in cahoots together. I'm sensing some kind of interaction between them, and CES's double-FoS of Thesp today, while keeping his vote on me and refusing to explain why, does send up a flag.

MBL: That explanation more than satisfies me. Thanks.

[Glork]

I asked you to explain the FoSes and you declined to do so. I then asked you why it wasn't a vote, so you voted for me. It is clearly implied that I wanted (and still want) to know why you claim to suspect me.

[Glork]

Did you have a reason before the alleged misrepresentation?

[Glork]

Bandwagonning, I think.

When?

[Glork]

No, when was the bandwagoning which formed the basis of your Post 461 vote?


MGM: It's mostly the second post. With a couple of players (Thesp, MBL, myself) having poked at CDB, it seemed like you were appealing to others for some kind of basis on which to bandwagon. I can't really explain why that set off my scumdar, but it was something in the timing and manner in which you posted:
[aside: Oh, people are noticing that CDB hasn't posted much.] "Hey, guys, that's scummy, right? Should we be lynching him?"

[Glork]

DEFEATIST!!

[Glork]

You didn't ask me, Fritz?

[Glork]

I will post content within the next 24 hours.

If not, you should hit me in the face.

Zindaras, you have about 20 minutes before the pain begins.

FoS: Zindaras

[Glork]

Oh, wow, I somehow completely missed that post.

UnFoS

, I guess...

[Glork]

That's quite a strange sort of a defence. Obviously we don't know whether or not you were, but the wording and timing suggests it. This isn't a game of certainties.

My point was that Glork is assuming the worst with no evidence to back it up. I never tried to lynch CDB, so assuming that was my aim has no basis in either fact or logic.
Try Occam's Razor it works like a charm.

Bzzzt. Fail.

I am most certainly

not

naive enough to give you the benefit of the doubt,

ESPECIALLY

if I

already suspected you

for other reasons. And evidently, I am not alone in this most recent suspicion. In my eyes, you're guilty until proven innocent.

[Glork]

I swear that I posted yesterday, but that post's not here now, and I don't remember what I said

lawlscum

[Glork]

Based on Nightfall's PBPA, I think a

FOS: Fritzler

is in order.

FOS: MGM

:GOODPOSTING:

[Glork]

I'm slightly more confident in MGM/Adele than I am in Thesp right now.

I could probably be persuaded to move to Thesp if I don't get my way, though.

I still want to hear something pretty substantial from Ether, too. Her vacation was ill-timed, but she is back now, and hopefully she can provide us with something in the next day or so.

[Glork]

Mod:

Can we get a really hard modprod on Ether, with a replacement if she doesn't show up in a few more days?

Thanks...

[Glork]

If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM are

so

dying next.

[Glork]

If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM are

so

dying next.

Am I to understand from this that you have some kind of opposition to the lynch?

Glork thinks MGM,

Thesp

, Ether, Adele, possibly CDB are scummy.

(my emphasis)

Since that initial list has posted, MGM/Adele have risen to the top of my list. My Ether suspicion is in something of a stasis, and Thesp/CDB have slipped a bit.


Zindie: MGM is the play because he is scum. Obv.

[Glork]

EBWODP, Kinda: To clarify a bit, I pretty much agree with Patrick that the fact that MGM/Adele so readily jumped aboard the Thespwagon seems very dubious. Adele took a shot at Ether shortly after I implicated her. I believe (though I may misremember) that she took a shot at CDB around the time he picked up some suspicion. And now that the Thesplynch seems chic, she's climbing aboard for certain. Opportunism galore!

[Glork]

If Thesp is pro-town, Adele and MGM are

so

dying next.

That was way more concrete than anyone can reasonably be sure about. I don't like this post.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

[Glork]

No, I'm extraordinarily sure that you don't.

[Glork]

I know that Fritz and I are vocal enough to count as four or five people, but I wouldn't exactly call us a clique. In fact, Fritz has actually stated recently that he's making a conscious effort

NOT

to favor any of his buddies for non-game-related reasons. I think you're being a little paranoid over nothing. It's joking and posting style, Adele. If you actually think there's a serious problem with clique-ness and buddying-up, I can request replacement. I'd rather not have people think that the game is compromised for such silly reasons.

[Glork]

One last thing, Glork, how do you stand in regards to CES, Pat, Zind, and Lee?

MBL seems pretty pro-town to me. Zindie and Patrick are pretty neutral (though I plan on going back and examining Patrick before too long). CES seems reasonably pro-town to me also.

[Glork]

Right now, I don't plan on moving to Thesp unless we get another deadline and we need a lynch on somebody.

[Glork]

I certainly don't think that all three are scum at this point.

I'm obviously leaning towards MGM and/or Adele. I too would like to hear their reasons for voting Thesp.

[Glork]

I recognize that it's more or less joking, but it sortof feels like you were hoping that I'd take the bait anyway. Even

insinuating

that we should lynch to try to set up two futrure lynches sets off my scumdar pretty hardcore.

FoS: CES

[Glork]

Patrick:

On the previous page you ask Zindaras why he finds me suspicious while you are actually voting me yourself. If you find me suspicous enough to vote me, wouldn't it be logical for other people to follow suit for the same reason?

X

Forcing people to give their own opinions is always a good idea, even if you suspect the same person. You could be wrong, or they could be busing their partner.

[Glork]

Guys, I don't think Thesp is the play.

[Glork]

What Patrick said.

I want MGM or Adele killed dead today. Period. I'm at the point where I don't think I'd even support a Thespwagon for the sake of attaining a lynch. If we have to NL, so be it.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Adele

[Glork]

Fritz, MBL, Glork, probably CES, and probably Patrick are pro-town. Nightfall is slightly pro-town.

Thesp is currently on my "probably pro-town" list mainly due to my suspicions of Adele and MGM.

Zindie is mostly neutral/slightlygood. Ether is neutral/slightlybad. CDB is neutral/slightlybad.

Adele and MGM are scum.




GG, all.

[Glork]

Fritz are you voting for Adele yet?

[Glork]

I'll repeat the question, Glork. What is so scummy about Adele apart from the supposed Mgm-connection?

Her mannerisms in dealing with the SV and Andrew bandwagons did not sit well with me. I got the feeling that she was trying to appear helpful while just sitting back and letting things happen.

I *REALLY* did not like the way she said that I "owe [MGM] an apology" in 477 when MGM responded to my attacks on him a few posts earlier. I also did not like how she seemed to sheep my vague suspicion of Ether. Maybe I'm just misreading her posts, though; Adele usually comes across as scummy to me.

As far as I can tell, she never responded to my question in Post 537 asking why she wasn't voting.

I'm put off by the way that both MGM and Adele jumped on Thesp. I've found, based on past experience, that when a decently-respected player (such as myself, I would like to think) makes a list of 3-5 players who they believe might be scum (as I did with MGM, Thesp, Adele, Ether, CDB), and one of them (Thesp) finds themselves being attacked by multiple others (MGM, Adele), then that one is more likely to be pro-town and at least one of the attackers is more likely to be scum. As with any tell, it's imperfect, but it does bother me quite a bit.

Post 597 is more evidence of my supsicions. When somebody loses a post, even if it was a day or two before, they usually at least have an idea of what they were thinking. This type of carelessness/forgetfulness ("I forgot what I wanted to say," "I forgot who I was voting for," and so on) is, IMO, a very legitimate scumtell in experienced, intelligent players... which Adele certainly is. I feel as though that was another post that tried to make it look like Adele cared/particpated more than she actually has.

So there's more than just a connection to a player I find scummy. It's the mutual connection



I am, however, beginning to consider the case that Patrick + one of Adele/MGM is scum and that Thesp + the other of Adele/MGM is town. The fact that Adele and MGM have both supported each other as I have attacked each of them. Adele was more direct in her defense of MGM, though, since MGM seems to just want clarification on why I think Adele is scum.

I think I currently want Adele lynched more than I want MGM lynched.

I still want Zindaras to be more active -- lurking is something that I rarely see him do, and it could be an indiation that he's scum. (As far as I know, he has been active and has shown up pro-town in prior games that I've played with him. My memory may fail me on this point, though.)

I also want Ether to weigh in more with regards to the whole MGM/Adele/Thesp situation. She's gotten in a spat with Nightfall, but I don't recall reading anything profound with regard to this particular topic of conversation. Part of me wonders if maybe she's trying to cause a distraction of some kind so as to pull us away from this other debate.




Also, I'm going to be gone all weekend visiting family. I think I'll be back Monday sometime. I might get back Sunday evening/night/late (EST).

[Glork]

I am, however, beginning to consider the case that Patrick + one of Adele/MGM is scum and that Thesp + the other of Adele/MGM is town.

How on earth have you made this connection?

I meant to go back and change that to specify which (Patrick/Adele as scum, MGM/Thesp as town). There was something that I saw that made me think that you were a bad guy. I think it was in that whole "bloody kinfe" example/debate. I'll go see if I can recall exactly what that was.

[Glork]

The whole "Professor Plum"/evidence thing pinged when I read over it.

I would strongly agree with Thesp's take that, if there is more evidence to point to something (Plum being found holding the bloody knife), then you should work off of the most simple/logical conclusion (that Plum killed Mr. Boddy). As Thesp said, he exaggerated the example to prove a point, yet you

still

agreed with what I think is a ridiculous conclusion. As further evidence presents itself, that conclusion is subject to change, but if you see a man standing over a body holding a bloody knife you're not going to go "Nah, he didn't kill him..."

The fact that Adele supported you and simultaneously attacked Thesp piqued my interest. Combine that with the fact that you chose to go with the MGM lynch rather than the Adele lynch, and I thought that maybe you two were giving each other preference. It seemed like a mutual player connection to me. Yes, you've called both Adele and MGM scum. However, you have stuck with MGM this entire time, and Adele backed you as you both expressed suspicions of Thesp.

[Glork]

Oh balls.

I have to think about this.

[Glork]

Hm. I take it there's no mason group if Adele's claim holds true.

Unvote, Vote: Thesp

[Glork]

Huh? I never did think Thesp was a mason.

[Glork]

I'm not sure why you'd think that either. (Although I don't like Thesp's defending me... trying to link himself to me before he goes down? Possibly.) I already stated why I shifted from Thesp to Adele/MGM. When I was going after Thesp and suddenly the both of them just jumped aboard saying little more than "Thesp is scummy!", I got alarmed. That kind of wagon usually causes me to step back and change directions.

[Glork]

Pah. You're trying awfully hard to get me to call you stupid.

There's no "waffling" in my opinion of Thesp. It's a gradual and very steady move towards not thinking he was scum. The more I saw from Adele/MGM, the worse I thought they seemed. Consequently, as both of them were double-teaming Thesp, I began to wonder what was going on. It seemed like one or both of them were scum, with Thesp being thrown down as the poor victim. Go back and look at the core of the wagon against them and try to tell me that there wasn't substantial reason to be suspicious of Adele and MGM.

The reason I've focused so much on Thesp/Adele/MGM should be obvious, but apparently you can't see the trees for the forest. Those three constitute three of my top suspects, and have done so for pretty much the entire day. As I've already pointed out, when two people I suspect suddenly jump on a third one I suspect, it gets me wondering. So yes, this topic has pretty much absorbed my interest entirely... to the point where I think I even admitted not being sure what the whole Ether/Nightfall spat was about.

If I've waffled on anybody, it's been Ether (or Patrick). My meta towards her is still really screwed up. I'm still leaning towards "slightly scum" at this point, but I would rather be looking elsewhere right now. If Thesp turns out pro-town and Adele/MGM check out, CDB and Ether will be right back at the top of my list, most likely.

[Glork]

See, I think by "opportunistic," you mean "perfectly sensible."



Just sayin'.

[Glork]

I was mostly going on the "defend the townie to make yourself look good" bit. Take the middle road and acknowledge that the play wasn't a smart idea, but stick to your opinion that it defintiely wasn't

scummy.

It just felt wrong to me. I recall having done the same thing in the distant past as scum, and I've definitely seen it elsewhere. It's one of those intangible "The way this sounds is scummy, but I don't know why" things. And yes, I know people hate hearing that because it means that I can't properly substantiate my suspicion, but that's how I feel.

[Glork]

So, um, Ether... why no hammer before you went to bed?

[Glork]

I think I'd be happy lynching Zindaras.

[Glork]

Glork: But no vote?

I need to re-read the entire game very carefully before I come to any decisions. The plurality of my MafiaScum time (by a wide margin) has been consumed by Space Monkey Mafia. Now that SMM has finished, I plan on re-examining several of my other games. This one is on that list.

[Glork]

Alright, thoughts as I progress:

Page 1-2: Glork+Thesp mutual defense of "pro-town"ness. Not much to say about that... I didn't really get the reactions I was hoping for. The closest I got was "I thought Glork buses his scumbuddies, not defends them" from Patrick.

Page 2: Early miniwagon on Thesp. CES and Zindie make a pact to go after Thesp and then SV. This kind of behavior is pretty typical of CES... not so much for Zindie.

Post 45: AndrewS's No-Lynch suggestion. Ugh. What a terrible idea. He rightfully picked up some suspicion for that one. CES, Zindie, Adele all FoS/Vote him. Patrick calls it "interesting" and SV asks if he's new (in case he didn't know why No Lynch D1 is a bad idea, I presume). (Ensuing posts, Page 2-3.)

52, 54: MBL calls Patrick town, Glork scum, switches to Glork.

56: AndrewS defends himself by saying he assumed that nobody would slip up and make a mistake. "Apparently I was wrong." Yeah...

SV switches to Glork in 57, Thesp affirms his vote for Andrew in 59, Glork asks MBL why he's scum in 61.

Post 65 is interesting. Ether votes for AndrewS... but not for the suggestion itself. She votes for him because he wasn't expecting to be FoS'd for it. That seems a little awkward to me. Ether, did you actually find AndrewS

scummy

for not expecting to be FoS'd?

71: AndrewS looking for reactions. He doesn't say anything about what he expected his reactions to be, though. Maybe this is what Ether was hitting on. I don't find "not expecting FoSes" to be scummy, though. Just moronic.

CDB jumps on the FoS: AndrewS wagon in 73. Adele doesn't particularly like the "I was looking for reactions" excuse in 74. Patrick is neutral towards AndrewS in 76.

Thesp accuses CDB of being Andrew's scumbuddy in 79. Could you explain this, Thesp? I'm not seeing what you were apparently seeing.

Glork puts AndrewS at 4 votes, IH pops in to put him at 5 (noting lynch -3). CES makes it -2 and tells Zindie to join him. This is something I *do* find a bit alarming. CES, did you want Andrew lynched at that point? If so, why? What did you think of the wagon on AndrewS at the time? What did you hope to accomplish if you didn't want him lynched?

MGM votes for CES for being talkative in 84. Why a random vote at that stage?
Okay, not random as indicated in 86. Calls CES more lurky as town, more active as scum. I tend to disagree with that assessment.

Zindie balks at voting AndrewS, saying he wasn't going to follow CES wherever, and he didn't want to quicklynch him on Page 4.

AndrewS moves to Adele in 92. He also grills CES on why he would propose such a plan other than for information-gathering. CES objects by merely pointing out that it's completely counterproductive to even suggest such a plan. Andrew accuses CES of avoiding the question, CES indicates fishing for investigation as GF, "pretend to" incite reactions, says he doesn't think Andrew's intent is relevant. AndrewS basically OMGUSes him for that last comment.

99: IH basically says "wow, Andrew, nothing but WIFOM here. 'Why do it if it's so suspicious?' Dislikes Andrew's plan." Adele reaffirms her position in 100.

Post 101: Ether moves to IH, after summarizing the interaction between Andrew and those who attacked him. Ether also points out that she is "watching" MGM/Adele. She doesn't seem to see the WIFOM (though it is clearly there: "Citing a horrible plan and thrusting myself into the spotlight is a horrible idea as scum. Why would I do it if I were scum?"). Appeals to SV for thoughts, citing 53/57.
Now... this doesn't make any sense to me. Ether first votes AndrewS because he didn't expect people to be suspicious of him. When he 'explains himself' by saying that he thought that because scum don't do silly things like that (WIFOM, and pointedly wrong), people accuse him of using WIFOM and... being wrong. Yet Ether

doesn't

like those reactions? That's something of a 180, it seems.

Zindie points out the WIFOM in Post 104. He also says that actually pursuing a lynch such as the one on AndrewS likely hits a townie. Nevertheless, he never even considers the possibility that if this is a fast wagon on a Townie for shoddy reasoining, there

just might be scum on that wagon.

Pro-town Zindie, in my experience, is usually much more observant and forceful. I would think that Zindie would include something along the lines of "and if this wagon is bogus, there's probably scum somewhere on it." Nothing, though.

Post 106: MGM doesn't understand why Zindie's "I think it's WIFOM" does not lead to "I think we should lynch Andrew." Sadly enough, many townies use WIFOM logic, too. I don't see how Zindie did anything wrong there. He also tacks on an FoS: Andrew in Post 107.

Post 108: Patrick thinks Andrew is more likely to be pro-town, based on the wagon. He also asks a question to the wagoners/attackers about why AndrewScum would vote No-Lynch. Like Zindie, though, he fails to address any potential scumbags who might have fueled this bad wagon.

Glork votes CES in 109. Andrew joins in 110, SV jumps on in 111 -- SV expands by saying "I think the people who attacked AndrewS are likely scum."

Zindie, 113: "Town also use WIFOM" to MGM.
Patrick, 114: "I think the WIFOM-callers are probably scum." Agrees with Ether, effectively. That's a strange conclusion with which to agree.

116: MGM, quoting Patrick's "I don't like hte AndrewWagon speed," steps out and defends CES due to wagon-speed. Note that the second two voters -- AndrewS and SV -- were both pro-town. This reminds me

VERY

much of a scenario that happened in Lights Out 1. A very quick wagon formed against JSexton (Pro-town), and Glork (Pro-Town) noted it and jumped on one of the wagoners (Logicticus, Scum). Draygn_Mage (Scum) steps in and makes

this post

, effectively saying "But the wagon on Logic popped up, too!" That's

disturbingly

similar. Possible MGM-CES connection has been logged and noted (yes, despite MGM having an innocent investigation on him... we know there's a GF out there somewhere.)

CES's reply to SV in 117 does not make me happy. His defense is "if you don't like Andrew's attackers, why are you voting me? I didn't attack him." So CES is basically saying "I just jumped the wagon 'cause I could." That is not any better. In fact, it just maybe worse, because if a mislynch on Andrew happens, players can cite the attackers and not CES.

119: Thesp cites a prime example of scum suggesting no-lynch, getting attacked, and getting out of it "because scum don't ever do that." Strangely applicable.

Glork suggests No-Lynch, votes No Lynch, says that night actions help give the town info. Glork was joking, but some players: Adele believes him, Patrick asks why it's helpful, CDB says he doesn't think Glork is being helpful. (Posts 120-128)

In Post 128, CDB also jumps on AndrewS, citing the WIFOM. He seems to be a little late joining the wagon, and he accuses Andrew of being scum for it

after

a few players pointed out how townies use WIFOM a lot, too, and how it's probably a non-tell. Strange, at best.

IH pops in with a few points: Nightfall needs to post, Glork's making a point, he disagrees with "No Lynch suggestion is a null tell," doesn't like Ether's 102. Basically, he makes a really good post when I look at it now. Hindsight, etc.

134, MGM votes Glork for the No-Lynch suggestion. Glork OMGUSes him "for not paying attention" and cites IH.

IH and Andrew spar for a bit, through the end of Page 6.

Hum. Post 150 by Patrick bothers me. Patrick asserts that he said opportunistic scum were on AndrewS's wagon (which he never made explicit, as I pointed out). Yet through this time, his vote continues to sit on Thesp -- a vote which was

completely random, as it was the very first post of the game.

Furthermore, Patrick never named Thesp at all... I will grant that Thesp did say "the WIFOM argument is crap," but he backed it with solid evidence of why this is true, citing an example from a game in which experienced scum did exactly what he was accusing Andrew of doing.

Immediately thereafter, though, Thesp continues to go after AndrewS for basically the same thing that Patrick just called scummy. Now I'm getting conflicting suspicions. Patrick seemed a little lazy to me just now, but I understand the point he is making, and Thesp pushed this lynch quite hard. I could actually see Thesp+CDB as a scumgroup right now. CDB put that post-wagon wagon vote on Andrew, and Thesp kept fueling the fire by attacking Andrew incessantly. Thesp, figuring he was going down, could take the opportunity to do a little distancing. I'll have to think on this theory.

161: "I agree with Thesp." Still seems to think I was serious with my NL suggestion.
IH agrees with Thesp, too.

Post 163, Nightfall adds another FoS to Andrew. Claims he hasn't been able to follow the thread properly.

Ether's next post is 170. She affirms the neutrality of her stance towards AndrewS, says that people who voted him did it "for bullshit reasons." She says something interesting -- she wants IH to explain how voting for No Lynch equates to an actual No-Lynch. I would argue that, unless you make it clear that you are not serious (Page 1-2, my NL vote, etc.), a vote for something is an indicator that you want that something to happen. In games which have had mayorial elections, voting for the Mayor means "I would support this person as mayor." In most game situations, a vote for a player means "I want to see this player lynched." Similarly, a vote for No-Lynch would seem to indicate "I want us to No-Lynch" unless (or until) indicated otherwise. The second half of her post seems to be spammy responses to comments by other players.

In Post 173, MGM joins the "Andrew/Glork wagoners are scummier than Andrew/Glork."
...

Post 174 interests me, too. He goes from Thesp (WIFOM attacker of Andrew) to IH for "cruising" and for

sucking up to Thesp.

I've seen the "I think X is scummy, but I also think Y is scummy for sucking up to X" attitude before, but I don't like it. Patrick also goads MGM into looking at IH, by saying "if you think Andrew's wagoners are scummy, you should look at IH."



So there are my assorted thoughts through Page 7. I will sum up my own personal suspicions/conclusions in a bit, and I will continue with my analysis of the game later this evening. Right now, I have a Scrabble game to play. I haven't tried to keep this "objective" per se, but I think I've tried to separate "X says blahblahblah" from "I think this is scummy."

Read and enjoy.

[Glork]

Well I got wrecked in Scrabble. Flooded with vowels for the loss. Only managed one bingo, with "DESCENT."

Okay... so CES, Zindie, Thesp, Patrick, Ether, MGM, and CDB have all done things that are noteworthy as possible scum-actions in my mind.

I see a potential MGM-CES link, Thesp+CDB link. Zindie and Ether probably seem the scummiest overall to me, right now.

**EDIT** I should point out that I do ask specific questions of some players. No, I am not bolding them or making them stand out in some way. I expect each and every one of you to read through my analyses and find the questions yourselves. After a few days, I will repeat unanswered questions and accompany them with a summary FoS, or quite possibly a vote. You have been warned.

Now, moving on to Page 8...

The first line in Post 175 looks strangely pro-town. The rest of it is rather meh.

182 by Fritzler is pretty useless. Go figure.

192 by IH might be worth looking at. Points out Ether's staunch defense of AndrewS, reiterates his stance towards the AndrewWagon, IGMEO Thesp and MGM.

Post 195, Nightfall questions Andrew again, but moves to Ether -- also doesn't like her defense of Andrew. He still FoSes Andrew, though.

Glork FoSes IH in large, underlined letters in 196 -- keeping with the "Thesp is infallible" theme. I really should have cut that out by now.

197, Thesp still seems to think that CDB is Andrew's scumbuddy. He still hasn't named a single reason for it. This perturbs me. He also calls Nightfall scum for "Deflecting the AndrewS wagon."

199, Patrick agrees with Thesp with regards to Nightfall -- also feels Nightfall misrepresented Ether.

201, IH thinks Ether is scummy only if AndrewS is scum. Glork explains in 202 that scum will often defend townies very staunchly to get brownie points (both with that townie, and with the rest of the town later on). Thesp says basically the exact same thing in a virtual simulpost.

MBL finally steps in again in Post 206. CES more active than usual (because he smells blood), Andrew's behavior is mostly null, notes that CDB is late to join the "WIFOM Wagon" on Andrew (something I noted in Part 1 of my re-read), also says CDB "avoided" the wagon earlier. I'll have to check on the accuracy of that statement, but it sounds about right. Patrick "reaching," but then sounds pro-town. SV "suspect" protection of Andrew (Ether did same -- possible MBL-Ether link noted). However "Thesp strings up Andrew in the guise of a lesson" sounds remarkably accurate to me. Notes Glork's protection of Andrew, says I'm not "in flippant mode." IH town until reaching against Ether (protecting Ether? more possible connections...). Supports/Agrees with Ether. (Interesting.) Interesting interpretation of MGM -- claims that MGM assumes Glork/Andrew to be pro-town. Mind explaining this, MBL?
"Thin" contribution from Nightfall. I find it odd that he says Nightfall votes Ether for protecting Andrew without indicating whether he thinks either is scum. He VOTES for Ether and FOSes Andrew. What the hell do you

think

he's thinking?
Only one note on Adele, none on Zindie.

Glork votes Ether in 207. MGM unvotes Glork in 208, tries to make something of a peace with Andrew.

Patrick's 210. IH suspect, sucking up to Thesp. Odd stance on Thesp -- agrees with "string up under guise of lesson" but does not think Thesp is scum. Thinks SV flip-flopped, doesn't get MGM, wants to know where Ether-hate is coming from (names Glork specifically). Glork flatly refuses in 211.

Re: Thesp, Post 217: Whatever happened to Nightfall as the last scum?
CES asks who the second one was (CDB), Patrick points out that Thesp has named four people, CES goes after Patrick for the "Nightfall is scum" comment. Odd interaction.

Post 224, Zindie's summary post. SV scum, Ether Scummy but then less scummy later on, blahblah... but Zindaras doesn't substantiate these suspicions or votes of support very well. He even calls CES and MGM town based on being Dutch, which shows a

distinct

lack of interest. MGM had picked up several votes, and CES had a short mini-wagon and some mild suspicions. Zindaras, can you go back and pick out some of the reasons you had these early-ish impressions? I find your contributions disturbingly lacking

Post 225, Patrick points out that Zindie's "Patrick needs to post more" stance is both hypocritical and flat-out

incorrect.

Post 226, Thesp explains his Nightfall/MBL as the third scum thing and states that he's got "an alternate thory" which also involves AndrewS being scum. Even though both of these theories turned out false, I am

very

curious to know what this other theory was. Thesp, explain, please.

IH's Post 235, he points at MGM -- wishy-washy, keeps "misreading" the game.
He expands in Post 242. I think he makes some very good points. Interested to see MGM's response.

Nightfall also presented "at least one scum of Ether/AndrewS," for which Patrick asks clarification. Nightfall not sure about Thesp, but seems intimidated by Thesp as indicated in Post 248. Odd.

Post 253, Ether agrees with my FoS of IH -- odd, considering my FoS was a complete joke based only on him IGMEOYing Thesp. (I think I pointed this out at the time, though.) Doesn't like MGM, but likes IH less. Reasons, Ether? Reasons are always nice. The wording "loathe Andrew's wagoners more than I loathe Andrew" seems strange... doesn't like Andrew, but likes the wagoners less. An awful lot of middle-ground being taken here.

Thesp, Fritz want day to end in 256/257. Glork die-rolls in 258, rolls again when the dice pick Thesp, votes SV based on die-roll.

MBL climbs aboard in Post 261, stating that SV is avoiding doing anything significant. Says he may be back on MGM. Adele hops on in 262, Zindars in 263. Guarantee you right now that one of MBL/Zindaras is scum. Currently leaning towards Zindaras.

Glork pokes at Zindie in 265, 266. Zindie defends himself from 266 in Post 268, saying "wagoning like this is scummy except this time." Uh huh. Right.

Quick note on my 270. MBL's post made me lol because it's techincally true. After a string of deaths within one night of entering a game, I have tried being intentionally useless early so that I can survive later on to do some analysis. This is that analysis.

More CES pointless wagoning in 271. Now that that game is over, I can say that this is starting to remind me of how he behaved in Space Monkeys. CES may do this "reckless wagoning" thing all the time, but I think I smell a rat this time.

The town's bandwagoning based on a random number Glork pulled up? Apparently so. It's odd how somebody with just an iota of suspicion could recieve FIVE votes in the span of like TWELVE posts. Glork, Adele, MBL, Zindaras, CES. Adele was pro-town. I could

easily

see two scums among MBL, Glork, Zindie, CES. Possibly just one, though. Suggest lynching Zindie.

Post 278 by Zindie doesn't make me any happier. We know that you think SV is scum. You've said it multiple times. Yet, to my knowledge, you NEVER stated

WHY

you thought SV was scum. Go back and look at her early posts and explain to me WHY you thought she was scum back then.

Ether's 284: Defends her stance on Andrew, attacks MBL's Post 261. Not sure what to make of that one.

End of Page 12, SV basically votes Andrew out of self-preservation.

MBL to Patrick in 303, offers no reason when Patrick asks why.
Glork offers an explanation in 307.

309, Patrick trying to be "realistic" in not getting an IH-lynch in three days. Postulates MBL+AndrewS as a scum pair.

Glork doesn't find Andrew all that scummy in 315.

>>SIDENOTE: I'm getting lazy. I'll finish D1 and call it a night. I probably need to check some of my other games anyway.<<

IH's 322, asks some questions of Nightfall. Response should be interesting.
He votes SV in 332, asks for claim, still wants to lynch MGM, though.

MGM goes to Andrew in 333, joining the wagon he "like

best."

Nightfall promises post tomorrow in 335, in response to IH. Andrew doesn't like that he says "I'll post <<later>>" too much. Valid point, I guess.

MBL seems to be reaching a bit in 343, when he goes at MGM. He also asks Andrew what Andrew thinks of SV.

Glork goes to Andrew, says to vig IH (224). CES to Andrew in 225. CDB: "Should have been joining Andrew to begin with" in 226.

253: Patrick asks why Glork voted Andrew if he didn't think Andrew was scum. Glrok replies by saying he wanted to wagon somebody.

>>This is the second time that I've done something completely ridiculous, only to have players fall in line right behind me. I sortof wonder if I was being set up by the wagoniness there. Granted, the AndrewVote was pretty bad. I think I'll look at who went after me early in D2 and see how I feel about those players.<<

Thesp wants SV to vig CDB in 358.

Still

no reasoning as to why CDB should die.

360, Zindie laments not killing SV for dumb/spammy reasons (this is beginning to annoy me, Zinds), asks if there can be SKs. Combine with his recent "wait, there's a GF?" post, and he is either not paying any attention to the setup, or he is doing a very good job of pretending not to pay attention.

Glork to MGM in 364, still wants IH vigged.

365: MBL points out apparent flip-flop from Ether.

Post 366: Nightfall waltzes in with post analyses on Adele, AndrewS. IIndicates that he wants to do everyone's posts. I like that style. Mass reading/interpretation is good (in case you didn't notice). Read the post yourself, I won't bother summing it up here; it'd take too long.

368, IH being wagoned/vigged "for no reason." Moves to MGM.

MGM is also not paying attention in Post 375. This seems to be a running theme for both him and Zindaras.
Adele points it out, MGM explains that he looked at the deck but not the initial post. I can accept that for now.

Adele/CES have a spat about what the Vig should do as far as choosing/announcing a target. Glork supports CES, says he'd be okay with vigging Adele.

SV announces she will vig IH.

394 by MGM is a pretty big misrepresentation. The town is clearly undecided on anything at this point, so his "IH is being vigged because he is second in line to be lynched, so this is what the town wants" explanation is complete and utter crap. I'm not giving up on him being the GF possibly because MGM has looked bad to me. I donno yet, though. Still contemplating.

395 sent up a flag, and I'm not sure why. He finds IH scummy on a vibe, thinks that IH's earlier "igmeoy:thesp" was to satisfy Pat's "you're sucking up to Thesp" notion. I think Patrick overpresents his "case" against IH.

Zinde onto IH in 396. Apparently he doesn't notice that IH is slated to be vigged. Not a helpful post at all. He's lazy and not paying attention.

MBL inserts his support for an IH killing very vaguely in 397. Says he's not being "aggressively insightful" as usual, and calls him "flippant," "mealy-mouthed." Still prefers MGM, and says IH/MGM are probably not scum together.

Fritz's 402 dosen't make me very happy.

Hmm... If you are reading these posts, please post "I like ____" in your next post, filling in the blank with whatever you think is appropriate. I am curious to see who's actually bothering to utilize my gigantic analysis posts.

403, Nightfall has PBPAs alphabetically through Glork.

Ether to Nightfall in 407, saying she doesn't get his new posting style. Ether: Posting summaries of what people are saying is almost always helpful, as long as it's accurate and reasonably complete. It aids greatly in re-reading. I personally will be referring to these posts of mine as long as I'm alive in this game, because I don't want to sort through the entire thread unless I need to, as new information arises. I would assume at this point that Nightfall would want to give analyses/thoughts of players as he finishes his PBPAs. I don't get what's

not

to like about it. An interesting quote from the end of this post:

(Aside from that, I don't really like Andrew's behavior and I'd hammer him at deadline if it came to it.

Sound reminiscent of D2 when she said she'd hammer Thesp? Hmm.

***Patrick-IH spat continues in 412. I'm getting tired of reading at this point. I am asterisking this post solely so that I can read over it in detail. This is really more a note-to-self than anything else.

413, Patrick not convinced by case against MGM, and he takes a brief look at CDB, calling his efforts "underwhelming."

Thesp "fairly uncertain" regarding MGM in 414.

Zindie/CES still arguing semantics/purpose of voting an alleged vig target. I find this distracting and uninteresting. It is not helping to find scum. There have been an awful lot of Zindie-CES interactions. I wonder if something might be up between them.

Fritz, 425 -- "posts too long," though he "tried to contribute."

426: Actual analysis from Nightfall (on AndrewS). Lots of words, nothing really profound (says the pot to the kettle). Definitely indicates that he thinks Andrew is lessthangood.

Glork hammah's in 434 (note to self: Page 18).



Okay, so right now I'm digging Zindaras the most, along with CES.

Vote: Zindaras, FoS: CES

for now. More to come tomorrow, or possibly later tonight if my mind clears up a bit.

[Glork]

Holy crap, that post took an hour and a half to write.

[Glork]

But there's a difference bewteen being lynch-happy and letting a deadline run out because you don't want to lynch.


Just answer these few questions for now, Fritz: Did you prefer No-Lynch over lynching Thesp? If so, why? If not, why did you not hammer near deadline?

[Glork]

Cessy was being typical-Cessy. He never actually pressured me into voting AndrewS, which I would've expected if he were scum.

This is factually wrong:

CES makes it -2 and tells Zindie to join him. This is something I *do* find a bit alarming.

Please don't lie to me, Zindie. I just read every post in the first 17.5 pages of the game. I know

exactly

what "Cessy" did or did not do.

That's bull. A statement like that can never be incorrect. I feel that Patrick should post more, so I post that. That you disagree with it doesn't make it incorrect.

Sorry, poor word choice. Substitute "either falsified or completely idiotic" for "incorrect." Patrick, as he pointed out and as I noticed when I read, had posted and contributed more than most players in the game at that point. This "opinion" appears to be something that you made up completely.

I thought Post 111 was a scumtell. Non-contribution, flip-flop on AndrewS. That's what I had on her. I know it isn't a lot, but I didn't feel the AndrewS-lynch at all.

I know Patrick already addressed this, but that is certainly not enough to go pushing a wagon that was founded on nothing and fueled by a

random, die-roll

vote.

I like how you still suck at reading me, Glrok.

*laughs*

I wanted to post that!

First of all, I would tend to disagree with both of you on one level or another. But that debate is not for this game or for this point in time. Second, I would like to point out that if you both wouldn't insit on behaving patentedly scummily, you wouldn't find yourselves in positions where players think that you are scummy.


Oh, and about your reply to Patrick:

I like Fritz. Now and then, I go and play like Fritz to see how people react to it.

A cop-out post if ever I saw one.


That said, I'm going to do something very slightly unorthodox. As much as I don't like Zindie, I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: Ether

. I know she likes to lurk in her games, but I think she should be pressured into talking a lot more right now.

Strong FoS: Zindaras

. If you're pro-town, seriously get your act together. Read over my re-reads and do some hardcore scumhunting. Angry Slave-Driver Glork is throwing down the gauntlet, because he is

not

happy about the way this game has gone so far.

Part III of my analysis (the next ~9) pages will come either sometime this afternoon or this evening.

[Glork]

CES, nightkill yourself.

[Glork]

Part III... I'm going to drop my posting limitation during my analysis; I think it's too hard to maintain in an analysis such as what I am doing.


"Bah" from Zindaras, Glork on MGM, Patrick on Glork. Nightfall affirms his positition, stating want to lynch if Glork hadn't, MGM FoSing Ether. Fritz on MGM.

453: Patrick cites Glork as unhelpful, bad/no reasoning, wishy-washy (especially with regards to Andrew), started SV-wagon on die-roll, hasn't behaved like "expected' pro-town Glork.

CDB follows up with an "I agree, but I'm not quite sure what's up" post.

Glork's 455: Explains votes, comments on oddness of the SV-wagon. Cites MGM/Ether as top suspects, along with Thesp, Adele, and CDB.

CES FoSes Glork/Thesp in 456.

MGM defends against Glork, Glork explains "fishing" accusation, asks CES about FoSes. CES declines to answer, Glork asks why no vote, CES votes Glork.

Patrick steps out and offers a defense of Thesp against Glork's FoS in 462, but agrees regarding MGM.

MGM continues to defend against Glork, votes Glork for "twisting" posts.

MBL's 466 is a list of one-liner thoughts on each player. Cites Ether, Adele, Thesp as top suspects. Votes Thesp, FoSes the other two.

474: Nightfall asks Glork about his posting style, promises PBPAs on Ether and MGM. >>One interesting thing to note is that Nightfall decided to do a PBPA on Andrew -- somebody somewhat suspected by numerous townspeople -- and now he's promising to do Ether and MGM -- two more people who have been called suspicious early in D2. This could be indicative of something significant.

Glork replies, asks MBL for clarification on how he compiled his suspicion list. (475-476)

Adele, 477, agrees with Glork's assessement of Ether, points out how she defended him but made comments indicating that she was willing to turn on him at any moment. She also says Glork "owes...an apology" to MGM for his attack on MGM.

MBL replies to Glork's question, calls it "borderline distractive" -- Glork coutners by saying he was looking for a possible inconsistency in MBL's suspicions. Glork also says that he doesn't owe an apology because he thinks he's found something scummy. He argues that pro-town MGM would more likely step up to defend SV -- NOT just ask for a claim.

Post 486, Thesp replies to Glork and MBL, and says he still doesn't like CDB.

Thesp, you still have not, to this point, explained why. If I do not find concrete reasons for this suspicion by the time I finish this part of my analysis, I will be hounding you for a retroactive explanation. Do I make myself clear?

492, Fritz prefers going after Adele rather than Thesp, votes Adele.

MBL points out to Adele that she is not contributing, wants her to flesh out suspicions better in the near future.

Post 509, Thesp still doesn't like CDB. He add Zindaras to the mix, along iwth Nightfall/MBL as a potential third. He also says he thinks scum are "fueling the fire, rather than getting in the way" -- an indication that scums aren't

leading

the suspicions charge, but are more than happy to support existing ones. Reminiscent of my last comment towards Nightfall. This makes me feel better about Thesp and a bit more suspicious of Nightfall.
I respectfully disagree with 513, though. I seem to have found a little bit on many players, whereas Thesp isn't finding much on anyone.

Thesp, Patrick, and CDB all expressed "sorry for lurking/slacking, I'll contribute" sentiments. Guarantee at least one is probably scum.

I like 522 by MBL.

527, MGM expresses support for CDB-pressure. Conveniently timed, though I suppose he

may

have just not been paying attention earlier, like usual.

535: CDB's post, "as promised." Comments on a handful of players, finds Thesp, Ether, Glork scummiest. Thinks Patrick, Zindaras are town. Can't read Fritz, CES.
I think I could dig CDB-Zindaras-Ether right now. Maybe Nightfall instead of Ether. Donno yet.

537, Glork notes that there is a ton of cross-suspicion bewteen himself and his five suspects. I hadn't thought of this earlier, but that might indicate that scums are sitting back and letting us rip each other apart. Definitely 1-2 scums in this group of six. More likely 1, rather than 2, though, I think. Glork also notes that Patrick, Zindaras, and Nightfall are being lazy/lurky... (Interesting that CDB called two of these three pro-town, eh?)

A few posts later, 539, Patrick posts thoughts on everyone. Adele scummy, CDB meh, unsure of CES, no significant problems w/Ether (though wants a post), unsure of Fritz, Glork reasonably scummy (though he unvotes Glork), MGM "more likely than average" to be scum, MBL++, Nightfall not scummy, Thesp "interesting," Zindaras also "interesting." Adds vote to Adele.

MBL reads CDB as "lazy town." He expands in 548, and asks CES why he is so focused on Glork's opinion of him. Also wants Ether to come back and post, as she is on several short-lists.

Glork explains why CES isn't likely pro-town in 550, lumping him with CDB, and is satisfied with MBL.

Hmm. Everybody, please read my 550, along with posts 552 through 556. tell me what you think of the exchange between CES and myself. I ask why CES was voting for me, he said the misrepresentation that I had just allegedly made. I ask why he was voting for me

earlier

and he says "bandwagoning, I think." This, coming from CES, who

only

bandwagoned D1? That raises an eyebrow for me.
I'd like to know people's thoughts on this.
Post 561 and 562 are also *very* relevant to this exchange. To my knowledge, CES never replied to my question in 562.

563, Zindaras agrees with Glork/MBL, finds Thesp/Adele suspicious. Delicious fuel-the-fire goodness? Who knows...

Ah, Thesp finally elaborates a bit on CDB in 580. Still, much of his suspicions pertain to his D2 behavior. I'm still a bit curious to know what had him so confident during D1.

Still, 583 from CDB sucks, IMHO. "My play was bad, but Andrew's was worse." "What, do you want me to get overdefensive?" "How do you expect a townie to play on D2?" Feels more OMGUS than reasonable. Also, the third part of that post felt like "Well yeah, I played it like I'm scum backtracking, but I don't know how to do it as a townie!"

Zindaras makes a PBPA of Thesp in 584, keeps pushing the "lynch Thesp" theme.

Patrick to MBM in 585, MBL doesn't like Pat's attitude. MBL also notices a

very

intersting apparent flip-flop between "I think the case was overstated" to "I buy the case," as indicated in 588.

589 is a lengthy response by Patrick, noting differences in the D1 case and the D2 case against MGM. He posits Adele/MGM, plus possibly Thesp. Considering Adele wasn't scum, MGM is likely not scum, and I'm now thinking that Thesp is very probably legit, I start to wonder about Patrick, too.

MGM confirm-votes Glork in 593, thinks Glork is severely overstating his case against MGM.

595, Nightfall does a PBP on Adele throuhg Glork. Likes Adele, not terribly happy with CDB, doesn't seem too happy about CES, certainly doesn't like Ether, annoyed that he's being called out and Fritz is being ignored, doesn't really express an opinion of Glork. He re-iterates his question about why Fritz isn't being pressured from earlier.
>>In response to that question, I'm just going to voice support for Fritz. I think I've got a good

enough

read on him that I can pretty confidently say that if I thought he were scum, I'd be all over him by now. I *would* like to see him contribute a little more, but I do not think we should be going after him for the time being. (That said, I've had only vague passing suspicions of you anyway, so I'm probably not the one who *should* be answering that question.)

599, Patrick replies to Adele (who suspects Glork a bit, does not suspect MGM) by inquiring about a possible double-standard. We would later learn that this double-standard would be because of her investigation result on MGM. Oops.

(Yay, Page 25!)

602: MGM FoSes Fritz based on Nightson's PBPA.

CES's 606: I want to bandwagon! Goes to Thesp.

Fritz, Glork, Adele, and MGM have a big FoS-party. Lots of OMGUS.
MBL to Ether in 629.
634, Glork prefer Adele or MGM lynch to a Thesplynch. Wants to hear from Ether soon.

637 by Thesp makes me happy. I now wish that, instead of being suspicious of his "unfounded" attack on CDB, I had paid more attention to CDB. I could swing around to a CDB-lynch if need be.

Interestingly enough, Zindie commits one of my favorite scumtells in 641, protecting CDB. Thesp accuses CDB of being lurkerscum. Zindie replies by wanting to look at other lurkers, too. Another scary post which is

very

reminiscent of a post in a past game. In this post in Kingmaker1, PJscum basically said "yes, Ameliaslay [scumbag] is lurking, but so are Chamber [town] and Fritzler [town]!" Basically, it's a protection ploy to get people away from your scumbuddy and to try to look elsewhere. I am

loving

a Zindie+CDB pairing. I could easily see a handful of players as the third scum, including CES, MGM, or Ether. Maybe even Patrick. Bah... finding that last scumbag is always rough.

643-651 is basically a debate between Patrick and Thesp. It amounts to mutual FoSes. I honestly don't find it terribly interesting, but you're welcome to look at it yourself.

MGM seem seems to side with (if you can call it that) Patrick, FoSing Thesp in 654. He also says that he sees "confusion" from both town and scum. Seems pretty null.

Adele onto Thesp in 657, Thesp cites "CDB, Patrick" as scum in 658.
MGM to Thesp in 667, Zindaras calls Ether "obivously pro-town" when her posts are read in isolation (668).
This is something with which I disagree. On top of that, I would argue that posts with context (as I've been reading) are more telling than in isolation. Trust me, it's easy enough to look pro-town if only your posts are being read.

Zindie to Thesp (lynch -2) in 671.

Glork wants MGM/Adele killed if Thesp is town. Thesp wants CDB/Patrick killed.

Patrick's 677: Defend against Thesp via "argument from repetition" citing. Defends Glork from Adele somewhat, stating he can see where Glork is coming from.

685 from CDB makes me even happier about lynching him.

700 from Ether. Disagrees with Thesp's attack on Pat, doesnt' find Thesp scummy. Scumlist seems to be as such:
Nightfall > MGM > Channel > Thesp.
Ether's post is definitely defensive, and I catch a hint of OMGUS. Not so sure it's a scumtell, though.

More odd Glork-CES semantics in 703-705. CES wants Glork to wagon, Glork says no, CES asks for a deadline.

I sortof skimmed the rest of Page 29. Pages 30-37(38?) will happen at some later date. Possibly.

-------

Okay, thoughts. I am now *VERY* confident that Thesp is pro-town. I see only one way he could possibly be scum, and it does not seem very likely to me. I also think that his suspicion of CDB was pretty much right on the mark. I still find Zindaras to be reasonably scummy. He either needs to shape up and do some serious work, or he might be facing the axe soon. I'm willing to give MGM a free pass for now, with the investigation on him. He goes in my "proably pro-town" category for now, but if we end up finding scums who make sense as buddies with MGM, I might return to him.

Probably Pro-Town:
MBL
Thesp
Fritz
MGM
Glork

Probably Scum:
CDB
Zindaras

Possibly Scum:
CES
Patrick
At most one of Ether/Nightfall. (Leaning towards Ether, though.)


I will keep my vote on Ether for now, but I will also

FoS: CDB

with intent to vote if Ether checks out okay in her next few posts.

[Glork]

fake prediction: our third and final power role will play incredibly lazily today, get themselves cornered into a claim, and get picked off tonight like yet another yorkie yapping at waterbugs on a florida pond.

I strongly disagree.



Can we just pressure Ether, lynch CDB, and go to night?

[Glork]

Ohhh. That makes more sense.

Please move your vote off of Thesp and put it somewhere useful.

:knowstuff: [/Fritz]

[Glork]

No, I did not. I still believe that Thesp is very likely pro-town.

[Glork]

Because it is fairly common for scum to apologize, appear to try to contribute, then fade back into the background. I consider it a scumtell of sorts. If you'll note, Patrick, I've ended up focusing on Zindie and CDB for more reasons as well.

Additionally, when I see a

group

of players all do that in quick succession, I tend to think that one of the last couple is trying to "fit in" with the others. They can excuse their own lurkiness, but they are less likely to be singled out because others did it as well. Note how Zindaras later offered the "but others have lurked" statement when Thesp was pressuring CDB. That's exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about.

[Glork]

One more thing Re: Patrick:

Earlier on you said that you 'completely agreed' with Thesp's point of view and you said that something in the prof plum debate made you think I was scum.

I don't find it interesting because I have nothing further to say on the topic. I'm not going to regurgitate everything because I'm doing a lengthy analysis.

Glork, it would be better if you would look at my posts before deciding I'm scum.

More tomorrow, I need sleep now.

Excuse me? What do you mean "if I would look at your posts." I've looked at every post you have made up through Page 29, and I have concluded that up to this point, I think you are scum. I don't understand what you're talking about.

[Glork]

EBWOP: Something quick to point out: you, funnily enough, link to my post saying that Ether is pro-town, but you do not link to my post saying that Adele is pro-town, even though they were both after reading posts in isolation.

This is because I have only read through Page 29, and you made that post on Page 32. For the love of God, Zindie,

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

[Glork]

Interesting that if I call Patsy out, saying he has to post more, I'm being flat-out incorrect, but if you do it, it's all right.

I wasn't calling him (or you or CDB) out. I was stating that lurkerscum often "apologize" for their inactivity and get this sudden burst of "inspiration" before fading away again.

Another good example. Who did, again, push the "Lynch AndrewS" theme Day 1? Who built all his opinions on the fact that AndrewS was scum? Hey, wouldn't that be Thesp?

If you think I am scum for pushing the lynch of "pro-town" Thesp, then you should find Thesp scummy for pushing the lynch of pro-town AndrewS.

No. If I held "whenever somebody pushes a lynch on a pro-town player," I'd want to lynch like eight of the other ten players right now (though incidentally, there are more players than usual that I find to be scummy). The differences come in the manner, timing, and reasoning of a push on a pro-town player. You're intentionally oversimplifying this to try to make a point... and it's not working.

I find it amusing that when I put someone at Lynch-2, it is worth noting, but you don't note any Lynch-2 or even Lynch-1 votes.

Wrong. In Part I of my analysis, I pointed out that IH put AndrewS at -3 and CES put AndrewS at -2, asking you to vote for him.
The reason that I posted "-X" is because you, IH, or CES also posted "-2" or "-3" in your posts. I was trying to use the wording (if you can call it that) that you used. You're making a tremendous deal out of nothing.

Post 642 says hi.

642 is a completely neutral statement. Saying that your gut feeling had gone away does not equate to saying that you think somebody is pro-town. Your "I read Adele in isolation and think she is pro-town" statement came in 788. Though I now realize that you meant to call her pro-town in 642, you were far too ambiguous in that post. At any rate, it seems to be a moot point now.

[Glork]

And the chronic lurking is worrying.

Reposted and made extremely large so that Ether doesn't miss this.

[Glork]

Ether is a good bet for now.

Might switch to CDB or maybe Zindaras later. I need to hear from Ether first.

[Glork]

I found him scummy for immediately shrinking back when he took flak for his vote.

That does actually make a fair amount of sense. I think maybe you articulated that point poorly earlier.

I do not understand the significance of this remark.

As it turns out, I don't think that remark

is

significant. I noted it because you said you'd probably come hammer, just as you said you'd likely hammer Thesp D2. I was wondering if I could make any comparisons. I don't know if I'll think it's significant or not by the time I finish my re-read, but I was trying to note most/all posts which seemed interesting, caught my attention, or could have been significant.

Unvote Ether, Vote: ChannelDelibird

.

I still don't know how I feel about Ether, but I do know that I don't like Zindaras, and I really don't like CDB. I think that we should return to Ether later. Perhaps somebody else can take a look at her and give some thoughts. In the meantime, I want to lynch somebody that I am

sure

is scum. And that person is CDB (or Zindaras, probably).

[Glork]

Patrick: Could you make a quick list of what you think about each player? Just a sentence or two per player is fine, though if you'd like to include more, you're more than welcome to do so.

CES: Please do the same thing. Quick thoughts on everybody.

MBL: What single player do you think is most likely to be scum? If that player were lynched as scum right now, who do you think is most likely to be their scumbuddy?

MGM: If Ether were lynched as a pro-town player, where would you want to look next? What if she were lynched as a scumbag?

CDB: Post and/or Perish. Preferrably both. Who are your scumbuddies?

Ether: What do you think of CDB? Fritzler? MBL?

Nightfall: What are your thoughts on the non-lynch of Thesp yesterday? Do you think anybody is likely to be scummy for not dropping the hammer? Pro-town?

[Glork]

See, that's my problem, CES. You've been focused on Thesp for a while, and I'd give... oh, about a 1 in 11 chance of him being scum.

I want you to look at everyone else and figure out what

your

thoughts are. I then want you to communicate those thoughts to all of

us

.

[Glork]

Patrick reads a bunch of games, I think, Fritz. I could be wrong, though.

[Glork]

Ether doesn't look town at all to me, CES bothers me, Zindaras bothers me, and the CDB wagon looks suspiciously scum-driven so I'm reading the fine print on that one.

Explain this. Thesp and I have pushed CDB the most by far, and Fritz hopped aboard recently. A few other people have expressed passing suspicions of CDB, but nobody else has decided to ride the gravy train. You call Ether, CES, and Zindaras suspicions -- and none of them have expressed much suspicion of CDB (if any at all). Yet you think CDB's wagon is "suspiciously scum-driven"?

Just how many scums do you think are in this game?

[Glork]

I hope that wasn't intended as a response to my last post.

[Glork]

I'm not feeling the CDB wagon. If someone actually posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense.

If ever there were a completely contrived post, this is it.
"If someone actonally posted a reason for it, it didn't stick with me as making logical sense."
How can you both be unsure whether somebody posted a reason ("

If

somebody

actually

posted....") yet simultaneously think that said reason (which you aren't sure exists) doesn't make logical sense?
Thinking that somebody's reasoning does not make sense necessarily implies that somebody posted reasoning, does it not?



Also, to answer your question to me:

Probably Pro-Town:
MBL
Thesp
Fritz
MGM
Glork

Probably Scum:
CDB
Zindaras

Possibly Scum:
CES
Patrick
At most one of Ether/Nightfall. (Leaning towards Ether, though.)

Reasoning found here, here, and here. If you'll notice, my sentiments haven't changed much since then. I'm still a bit wary over MBL's "I think Ether, Zindaras, CES, and the trio on Thesp are all suspicious" comment is very out-of-place, and he may get knocked down a notch when CDB turns up scum... but other than that, it's pretty accurate.

So you believe that making a PbPA and actually bothering to re-read Thesp's posts (which I don't believe is something common among the Thesp-voters) is scummier than just voting someone and insisting he is scum throughout the day?

No, now you're not only twisting my argument, but falsely labeling the attacks of Thesp's other attackers. Several player made arguments with more logical content. But to halfway answer your question: Sometimes. Re-reading a player's posts does not make you less likely to be scum when you make your argument. It just means you're trying harder. Like I said, there were other reasons -- timing, mannerisms -- which contribute to my sentiment. The fact that you made an entire PBPA which basically amounted to "let me label all of Thesp's good posts as "Argument." or "Response to X" and let me focus on what I can drag out that's scummy" without supplementing that attack with a vote until a week later when you could wagon Thesp to Lynch -2 sends up red flags.

Saying you don't think someone is scum does equal saying someone is pro-town.

I disagree. But this appears to be a semantics/wording argument which I don't think will go anywhere... so there's really no point in continuing it.

[Glork]

he may get knocked down a notch

when

CDB turns up scum

Early morning slip of the wrist?

FOS: Glork

Quite intentional, actually.

[Glork]

Thesp, it's more a case of merit for other players than a lack of merit of the CDB things you posted. The things you've recapped can be scummy, but there's better candidates out there.

You're insane. Two of the three players currently voting CDB have

extensively

written about why they think CDB is scum. I don't think I've made a single positive comment about CDB's play, and Thesp just lined up numerous reasons to beleive CDB is scum. Nobody else is willing to jump aboard. The fact that this "wagon" has stalled at 3 votes and nobody is willing to explore it further is probably testament to the fact that there are a few wary townies, and that both of CDB's scumbuddies are figthting (or, at the very least, patentedly avoiding) a lynch on him.

[Glork]

I'm glad you finally saw the light, MBL.

[Glork]

Hmm... actually,

Unvote

.

I absolutely plan on lynching CDB today. But I want to finish my analysis before the end of the day, just in case I end up dying overnight.


I really do hope you folks look at it carefully if you haven't already. I'd like to think that there's a lot of useful stuff in there.

[Glork]

MBL, you're jumping at shadows.

I

will

see to it that CDB is lynched today. I'm sure that won't change in the final part(s) of my re-read. I just want to throw down some more analysis before I potentially die overnight. (And yes, I find it far more likely that I'll die overnight than you will. Come to think of it, I think it's more likely that any one of about 3 players will die, rather than you.)

[Glork]

Wait, with 11 alive, it should be 6 to lynch.

Vote: CDB

... will unvote if somebody puts him at -1 before I finish re-reading.

[Glork]

Hi, CDB, please die now.


kthx <3

[Glork]

I have to side with MBL on this one. I do

not

advocate a counterclaim at this time (personally, I think it'd be absolutely moronic for the last power role to counterclaim CDB). But I

do

want other people to actually *do* something, and to contribute to what should be a blindingly obvious lynch by now.

[Glork]

Oh, and CES, I still expect you to answer my question. Thoughts on everybody. Before today's lynch happens. Got it?

[Glork]

Ether posted twice in one day?


This is blasphemy. BLASPHEMY!

[Glork]

Well at this point, MBL, he's going to get the bus, if he isn't already. He's at... what, Lynch -2?... and at least 2-3 people have expressed willingness to lynch, even without a counterclaim.

[Glork]

....so you

are

his Godfather!

[Glork]

Yes, Thesp. We've already established that CDB and Zindie are scum together, remember?




Now what interests me, Zindie, is why you choose to say you see me as a

Godfather

, as opposed to being a

scumbag

in general. Mind explaining that one?

[Glork]

Well the presumption that I saw in Zindie's comment is that he knows I'd show up innocent to an investigation. Interesting note on the "CDB is a goon" assumption.

[Glork]

Well, I *really* would've liked you to do it before CDB got busted, but I'm not entirely sure that it matters anymore. At this point, I'd

rather

you do it before the lynch, simply because I'd like to see your thoughts as of

now

, without the additional knowledge/influences of another lynch and another night kill.

[Glork]

Remind me after this game to just put a disclaimer in my sig saying that I play erratically in approximately half of my D1s. I'm getting sick of reminding people of that every time I *do* play erratically.

In the meantime, I'm just going to leave you with a quote from another player, in another game, who *does* recognize that it's just a random playstyle I slide into:

I think Glork's doing one of his normal day one town behaviors (he has lots of them); he will do this crazy behavior. It serves two purposes; it puts people on edge, which can make them say stuff they didn't want to, and it makes scum less likely to kill Glork, which is good for town.

Other than Space Monkeys (which is unusual because I knew that the townies thought they were scum and were more likely to be erratic, too), I can't think of a single time that crazyerraticD1glork has been scum. I

can

, however, name at least half a dozen games when crazyerraticD1glork has been town.
Sesame Street, Cultural Revolution, KM2, Snakes on a Plane, Newbie 254, Band Mafia, CSER.

[Glork]

For one, I feel that there is a link between Glrok and CDB.

Alright, I

definitely

want this one explained in great detail. Quotes! Post numbers! More betterer reasoning! The masses demand it!

[Glork]

Yeah, let's go through with the lynch. Assuming I'm alive tomorrow, I'll continue my post-by-post analysis of the game.

[Glork]

Unvote: Ether; Vote: Glork

You can do a lot, but you won't get away with ignoring a question.

Sorry, I actually missed the question earlier. I was skimming, and it was buried in the middle of a paragraph. The quote in question refers to a game that is technically still ongoing on the site somewhere, so I'm being intentionally vague about details. Let it suffice to say that others can vouch for the legitimacy of the quote.

[Glork]

I agree with Patrick completely. There is no way at all that Thesp/CDB is a scumpair. I will also 100% guarantee you that CDB is scum. MGM is either really horribly wrong, or he's doing everything that he can to prevent his scumbuddy CDB from getting lynched (and if that's the case, it's just not going to work).

Patrick: You asked last page if MBL and/or I could explain on what CDB has said/done to warrant our certainty that he is scum. I really can't say that I know exactly what MBL found to be so suspect, but I made a handful of comments on CDB's words and actions during my extensive re-reads. I really don't feel like going through them again. I would like to hear what MBL finds specifically damning, and I'd like to check it against my own notes. It's highly probable that what he found is one of the things I hit on, but I still want to cross-reference it. Also, if it's the only thing that's going to convince some of the other townies that CDB is in fact the play, I think it might be better to have MBL reveal it anyway.

I'm still willing to bet that CDB/Zindaras is a scumpair, and if they were both to show up as goons, I would immediately press heavily for an MGM lynch. If one of them turns out to be a Godfather, I'm not yet sure where I'd look. But I am 100% certain that CDB is scum and like 75% certain that Zindaras is a scumbuddy of his.

[Glork]

*sigh*

Can we get more

really sharp modprods

on CDB and Ether? It's been six days since either of them posted. I know that lurking is their schtick, but this is really starting to make me angry.

And I do

NOT

like being angry.

[Glork]

Oh. In that case,

CDB, DON'T EVER POST AGAIN!

Ether, you may continue to post until I decide whether you are scum.

[Glork]

Hey, scumbag.

[Glork]

So, um.... in that post, Ether, I never really caught any idea of what you actually think of CDB. Do

you

think he's scum?

[Glork]

I think he is faking his claim. We know that the scums are 1 GF (inv immune and nightkill immune) and 2 Goons. So he can't be a scum roleblocker.

[Glork]

Don't worry, I promise I'll be back before the deadline.

I'm really freaking sick of hearing this from people.

[Glork]

We could just lynch him, you know? That'd work too.

[Glork]

Finally. Sheesh.

[Glork]

It's okay, Zindaras. We already know that you are CDB's scumbuddy. We'll just get you tomorrow, 'kay?

[Glork]

His Night 1 investigation is fairly obvious. An innocent on Thesp. So he's the Godfather. This is good to know. He doesn't really hint at a Night 2 investigation, although a guilty on Channel seems the most likely possibility.

Vote: Thesp

I could be mistaken, but I think that his N2 investigation was me, as indicated by his "Hey Glork, who's the play?" post. It's quite typical of the way he behaves when he gets an innocent -- he indicates complete trust in his target. He even follows me to Ether, then when I decide that CDB is more likely to be scum, he jumps aboard then. Even if he didn't get an innocent on me, the fact that he didn't just plop his vote on CDB (falling in line with his innocent-Thesp result) makes me think that he did

NOT

get a guilty on CDB.

I want to know exactly why you're so sure that Thesp is a godfather. Explain everything to the tiniest detail. Quotes, post numbers, refernces, everything. Why do you think he was busing CDB from the start of the game? What else do you find scummy about his play? Thesp is the one player I trust the most in the game at this point -- his attitude towards CDB does

NOT

feel like a busing attempt

AT ALL

.

I don't trust you, CES; you and Zindaras are on my short list today, and I plan on absolutely grilling you both. Hard. Additionally, I havne't forgotten about the fact that you

STILL

never responded to my request from yesterday. You said you'd work on it overnight and get answers to me during this game day. I want those answers ASAP.

In other news, I want to hear extensively from Ether. As I indicated in my response to her last post, she avoided weighing in on CDB at all. This is unfortunate, because I wanted to force an opinion out of her

before

CDB died, obviously. So Ether, I'm going to make a very direct request of you:
I want you to make a list of every single player in the game. In that list, I want you to explain how likely you think it is that each player is a dirty scumbag. Use percentages if you want, or just various descriptive words ("I think X is

highly

unlikely to be scum"). I don't care. I want a firm, clear, concise opinion on each and every player, because I've had a hard time all game figuring out what

you're

actually thinking. Provide some brief explanations of your thoughts on each player, too. I'll be further questioning you on explanations that dissatisfy me.

MBL, I still want you to point out and explain what you found in CDB's posts that was so damning. I still can't figure out if what you saw is one of the things that I had seen. Please point that out now.

Zindaras, your lurking has been unacceptable. I've already pointed out at least one link between you and CDB. You conveniently disappeared during most of the CDB debate, then popped in at the very end, after he was already lynched. You're not looking too good yourself either, sir.

Vote: CES
FoS: Zindaras
IGMEOY: Ether

[Glork]

Patrick: The way MGM behaved towards CDB actually makes me think that he is significantly less likely to be CDB's Godfather. His defenses of CDB were adamant and apparent even when it was quite obvious that CDB was in fact going to be the lynch of the day. Unless I'm giving MGM way too much credit here, I a) don't think he's stupid enough to be

that

bloody obvious; or b) Don't think a dumb scumbuddy would defend him that hard anyway. I could be mistaken, and the post you quoted gives me mixed feelings. (I know that I wouldn't ever make a post like that if I were a GF, but I've seen it before.)


My list is pretty much as follows (most likely to be scum at the top, obv):
CES/Zindaras
Ether
Nightfall
MGM
Patrick/MBL
Thesp
Glork

[Glork]

Oh, the other thing that *does* bother me about MGM was the whole "Thesp should have been lynched yesterday, so we need to lynch him today" thing. That just didn't make *ANY* sense to me. Mind explaining that one, MGM?

Finally, I should reiterate that I think at most one of Ether/Nightfall could possibly be scum. The way they sparred for most of D1/D2 does not feel like distancing at all.

[Glork]

What about the fact that Channel repeatedly expressed suspicions of Thesp, and never voted for anybody other than Thesp after the middle of Day One? Seems way more like crappy OMGUS than mutual distancing.


I've looked over CDB's posts a couple of times, and there are two posts that can give us lots of info:
Post 535
Post 765

[Glork]

I have used the “persistent push on one scumpartner” before to great effect. I think Thesp's overall behavior has been scummy, but his behavior specifically towards CDB seems like a genuine push on an unknown, not an attack on a scumpartner. I'd lean significantly town on Thesp at this point based on the nature of his attack on CDB, plus the likely investigation. CES's insta-vote on Thesp seems bizarre to me, and that's where my next reread is going.

CES, how does lynching a likely investigated innocent work out as the mathematical best choice today? Please enlighten us.

FOS: CES

His Night 1 investigation is fairly obvious. An innocent on Thesp. So he's the Godfather. This is good to know. He doesn't really hint at a Night 2 investigation, although a guilty on Channel seems the most likely possibility.

Vote: Thesp

I cannot fathom that you actually think this is a likely possibility. I would love to hear other thoughts on who you think are scum.

FOS: Cogito Ergo Sum.

I

strongly

urge at least one of you to turn this FoS into a vote. For three days now, CES has skipped around, deliberately refusing to cooperate with anybody, wagoning relentlessly, and he's been passing it off as "playstyle." It reminds me of the way he played in Space Monkeys, and now he's choosing to go with a sub-optimal play using "he's scum" as his only explanation. He's made it pretty evident that he doesn't plan on working with any of us to actually find scum, and he's obstinately doing whatever he wants. I can see two possible explanations for this:
1) He's a scumbag who has realized that his claims/theories aren't worth shit, and he's stalling for time to figure out an explanation (or to hope that we get distracted and look elsewhere)
2) He's a townie, but he's playing the most idiotic game of his life because he's too stubborn to play along with anybody else
I'm obviously leaning

heavily

towards 1), but I won't know for sure unless CES actually

speaks up and tells us

what

he's thinking about everybody and

WHY

he's thinking it.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Ether

I just thought of something and suddenly have very cold feet about CES.

[Glork]

I will point out, though, CES, that Thesp has his vote on CDB all during D2 until it was blindingly obvious that CDB was not going to be lynched, and he had his vote on CDB all throughout Day 3. I don't like the "he had no problem moving his vote elsewhere" comment. I think that he was very reluctant to move from CDB until he absolutely knew that nobody was going to follow suit. He even said, both when he went from CDB to Adele and from Adele to Ether that he wanted CDB dead more but couldn't drum up enough support despite his best efforts. To claim that Thesp was distancing from CDB is to insinuate that Thesp went after CDB relentlessly under the assumption/prediction that he would not be listened to. Not to knock CDB personally, but he doesn't make a terribly good scumbag in my experience, so I don't find that assumption/prediction particularly plausable.

[Glork]

Basically, CES, my meta is telling me that even though I think you're a complete idiot, I'm no longer completely convinced that you're still scum. I still want you to answer my questions and I'm still going to pressure you, but I don't want to overextend myself on this one.

[Glork]

1) My thoughts on CDB have already been posted. See my big long analyses as to why I started suspecting him. Also, I had picked up on FritzCop and his Thesp investigation, so when CDB claimed to be a Roleblocker, that's when I was "100%" positive that he was scum.

2) I can't go into specifics, because what I have in mind refers to an ongoing game, but let it suffice to say that the kind of stubbornness I'm seeing in CES is a pro-town tell. That's not to say that I agree with his assessment of Thesp (because I don't), but I'm not as sure about him as I was. Also, the wagon on him today feels a little off; I can't quite put my finger on it. What I

can

say is that I don't like the justification of your vote on him, MBL. You're voting him for a tangential semantics reason which, IMO, is quite obviously explained by the fact that he's been calling Thesp a scumbag for a couple of days now. The "second" scumbag in his mind is very clearly Thesp, so your guess that he slipped up in any way is... well, completely wrong.

[Glork]

...still waiting ot hear from Ether and Zindaras. My patience grows thin.

[Glork]

I wouldn't call that a blatant misrepresentation, CES. I actually got the same feeling, because I don't think you made it very clear that it was the

roleclaim

which changed your mind. Explaining it after the fact does not exempt you, so I see where Thesp was coming from.



Re: Ether
I'd like her to explain her ranking system a little more clearly. From reading the post, it just looks like the number below each player is "I find 3s to be very likely scum, 1s to be unlikely scum." However, there's no number below my name. I'm a little confused as to her organization.

I agree that MBL should point out all the places he saw cop hints. I also want you to explain how "dropping cop hints" necessarily implies that CDB is likely to be scum (and, more importantly a good lynch). I'm

very

confused on that one.

I'm starting to smell something fishy with MBL. I'm also going to go back and review MBL's attitude towards CDB. My feeling as of last night is that it's not CES who is the dirty scumbag jumping aboard to bus his scumbuddy, but MBL. Make sweeping bold statements about how CDB is scum, then get loud and forceful during it and in the aftermath. Things like the "are you worried that I called your bluff?" comment and now his harping on CES. I really get the feeling that MBL knew CDB was screwed, likely because of a Cop investigation, so he decided to look like one of the guys taking CDB down, and then he became responsible for the nightkill of Fritz.

Unvote Ether, Vote: Zindaras

for two reasons: I also see him as a potential scumbag, and I want him to post.

Major FoS/IGMEOY: MBL

[Glork]

Ohhhhh, I misread. I thought you were saying that

CDB

was dropping cop-hints, and that confused the living hell out of me.

Yes, I tried to hint at being a Cop. I was hoping to draw the mafia kill to myself, so that Fritz might live an extra day. The ":knowstuff: [/Fritz]" post was a signal to Fritz that I knew he was the Cop. I'm reasonably sure he picked up on it.

I'm still a little confused about the post in which you switch to CDB, though:

vote: ChannelDelibird.

I've spotted something very naughty. I suggest the rest of you read his posts with a fine-toothed comb if you already haven't.

Could you cite the exact post/place with this "something very naughty" that you seem to have found?

[Glork]

Yeah, see, in your earlier post, I thought this line:

But more importantly, based on Glork's behavior, I was convinced that he was the cop,

that the "he" referred to CDB, not me. I get it now.

[Glork]

Then why did you refer to having found "something naughty" and why did you ask us to go through CDB's posts with a fine-toothed comb?

[Glork]

Are you seriously saying that you didn't actually see

anything

in CDB's posts?



....



....

[Glork]

Yeah, yeah, I got it.

Can we kill Zindaras now?

[Glork]

First of all, Fritz repeatedly berated players for voting Thesp, both during D2 and early in D3. When Fritz comes out of nowhere and just asserts that people are pro-town, it's

almost

always a sign that he's a cop. Here are a few examples from Mafia 49 and Kingmaker 1, when Fritz was also a Cop:

RAJ isn't scum guys.

pretty sure bj is town so....

I don't think n lich is that scummy.

If anything I'd say n lich is a GG

I don't think n-lich should be nailed.

that's cuz n lich and me are pro town

I daresay it's blindingly obvious when Fritzler is a cop, at least in my opinion. To my knowledge, he does not simply waltz up and state that people are pro-town if he doesn't have some kind of information. So when I did my extensive re-read and I saw Fritz repeatedly telling us all that Thesp wasn't the play, I decided that he was probably a cop. Combine that with my increasing suspicions of CDB, and I decided that FritzCop, ThespTown, and CDBScum was very likely the case. That's when I decided to try to drop heavy hints to draw some blaster fire.

[Glork]

I can't imagine scum would have taken the risk that I took.

How exactly do you consider killing a scumbuddy and covering the tracks of a supposed cop a risk for a scumbag?

Oh gee, I donno... reducing your own numbers while defending and not killing the one role that can condemn you without a shadow of a doubt...... nah, you're right. No risk at all. [/sarcasm]

[Glork]

Please prod or replace Zindaras.

Please prod or replace Ether too.

Eh, Ether posted a couple of days ago. I think we need to keep pressuring her, as I believe she is deliberately/actively lurking.


Also, keep in mind people that Stoof said his policy is modkill rather than replacement. I'm wondering if we can get a replacement provided we find a suitable, active player, but it's really up to Stoof. I'd much rather prefer replacement over modkilling for Ether and/or Zindie, but I'd honestly be okay with a Zindaras modkil at this point.

[Glork]

Will a modkill end the day?

[Glork]

Does it matter? If it doesn't, we're going to have to no-lynch at some point anyhow.

Er, no we don't. We no-lynched D2, so we have an odd number of players for each day, from here on out.

[Glork]

Oh, I misread. Nevermind, I'm dumb. Still, I'd be okay with modkill+lynch, with a no-lynch down the road.

[Glork]

Pretty sure I remember saying "HAY ZINDIE, POST OR DIE" and "I like Ether's attack on Nightfall."

I'd be cool lynching either right now.