Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Glork]

Yeah, see, in your earlier post, I thought this line:

But more importantly, based on Glork's behavior, I was convinced that he was the cop,

that the "he" referred to CDB, not me. I get it now.

[MrBuddyLee]

It wasn't anything CDB posted, it was my significant belief that you were a cop with a guilty on him, and I was willing to play along and cover your ass by pretending I found something in CDB's posts that would explain why he was THE lynch. People running around looking for that was supposed to distract from any thought there might be a cop.

[Glork]

Then why did you refer to having found "something naughty" and why did you ask us to go through CDB's posts with a fine-toothed comb?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm guessing you're hopped up on Easter wine or something cause this aint that complicated... think it through based on my last couple posts and get back to us.

[Glork]

Are you seriously saying that you didn't actually see

anything

in CDB's posts?



....



....

[MrBuddyLee]

No, I read his posts before that exchange and after that exchange and found him to probably be either lousy town getting picked on by scum Thesp or scum himself. But that's a whole separate issue.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one but if I'm not, Fritz or Thesp is taking the fall, not me.

Trying to steer scum towards Fritz and Thesp as the instigators of the CDB wagon and away from youCop.

ohoho, now wait a minute. Was that L-1 too close for comfort? Did I call your bluff on your bus attempt?

More of same.

And before you ask as usual if I'm being dense, the answer is no.

Time to pipe down and let others chime in. Sorry.

Messages to you to stfu and stop being so obvious about your guilty result. I honestly thought this was a no-brainer.

[Glork]

Yeah, yeah, I got it.

Can we kill Zindaras now?

[Nightfall]

Glork A few of those hints were making me think you were a Mason.

@ Pat about CES
~My concern is that how hard he is pushing for a Thesp lynch even with a believed innocent investigation. Right away he goes for the godfather card, barely giving the thought that he could have been wrong a chance to settle.
~How he acted during the CDB lynch also doesn't sit extremely well with me.
He helped to lynch scum but he seemed to want to understate the chances that we could have been lynching a power role.
~Since he was holding off for the hammer it does leave me with a little worried that he might have been trying to give his scum buddy every chance to safe himself before he was hammared.
~As for metegaming, I'm not certain, but I think when CES is protown, even when he is being snarky about it, he is a little bit more willing to discuss things and the possibility that others may be right.

vote: Nightfall: He's still scum. (I will acknowledge that the kill didn't look like Nightfall's doing at all, nor Channel's. Awesome. We should discuss at some point who wouldn't catch on to Fritzler so they can get town points. (This is where my train of thought fails me; I'm not sure who else wouldn't. It got by me, but I suppose that's not the answer you want to hear.))
3

Pardon?

[Thesp]

Also noted: your suspicion of ChannelDelibird grows severely stronger when it's evident CDB will be the day's lynch.

This one. It completely fails to mention Channel's claim, the cause of my change in opinion. And if there's one pro-town thing that I'm proud of, it's that I'm not blinded by claims and that I can recognize that in many setups claiming a power role actually makes someone more likely to be scum. (In a 3 scum, 1 power role situation with plenty of incentive to try and draw out a counterclaim, this is especially true.)

You'll have to pardon me if I didn't take you at your word when you say that's when your change of heart was. Your strongest indication of this change of heart at the counterclaim was this statement:

(I'm wary of the claim, as a roleblockerclaim does not require results and it makes so much sense for Channelscum to claim it to get the final power role out that I'm quite willing to lynch him without a counterclaim if there's good reason to believe he's scum.)

...which was tempered by these other statements in the same timeframe...

Why aren't you willing to reveal what you have found, MBL?

If he's town, he obviously thinks that asking for a counterclaim rather than just getting lynched is a good idea.

This is the second time you've attempted to discredit a valid point by ignoring specific context. (It makes sense for him to ask for counterclaims, much in the same way I didn't think you were typically lazy.)

(note referring to CDB's point as "valid")

It didn't seem as clear-cut to me that you were strongly in favor of CDB's lynch when your strongest words on his lynch for a considerable time period are "I'm wary of the claim" and "I'm quite willing to lynch him without a counterclaim if there's good reason to believe he's scum", while making probative attacks at people who are driving the CDB lynchwagon. Forgive me if I have trouble in ascertaining exactly how much you wanted to lynch CDB, when your strongest words for him don't carry anywhere near the same amount of fervor as the words you've reserved for the desire to lynch me. It appears instead to me that you were deliberately vague in regards to him earlier so that you could come back at a later time and claim you were in favor of lynching him all along, whilst at that time not actually pusing his wagon (in fact, making minor moves to

stymie

it).

I would be fine lynching Zindaras, but I can't see what's pro-town about CES.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

He helped to lynch scum but he seemed to want to understate the chances that we could have been lynching a power role.

It is called statistics!

~As for metegaming, I'm not certain, but I think when CES is protown, even when he is being snarky about it, he is a little bit more willing to discuss things and the possibility that others may be right.

Uh, no.

Thesp, weren't you the slightest bit interested in what MBL had found? I was under the impression that he had found something. Presumably, him sharing it would've helped in the Channel-lynch, no? (Even not taking into account, it is just a question. Poking around for more info is pro-town.)

And scum are incapable of making valid points?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I have to point out, again, that that final quote was an attack on you far more than it was in any way a defense of Channel.

[Mgm]

I wouldn't call that a blatant misrepresentation, CES. I actually got the same feeling, because I don't think you made it very clear that it was the

roleclaim

which changed your mind. Explaining it after the fact does not exempt you, so I see where Thesp was coming from.

Misrepresentation may be the wrong word, but not mentioning the context is still manipulative.

It wasn't anything CDB posted, it was my significant belief that you were a cop with a guilty on him, and I was willing to play along and cover your ass by pretending I found something in CDB's posts that would explain why he was THE lynch. People running around looking for that was supposed to distract from any thought there might be a cop.

In other words, it's fine for you to lie your ass off and explain yourself after the fact, but if CES explains himself later for something that really should've been obvious it's not? (If someone changes their mind after a claim, you can assume the claim is the cause)

I'm gonna have a look at how MBL reacted to people who looked for this non-existent scum sign in CDB's posts and why he believed Glork and not Fritzler to be the cop.

[Mgm]

I've quickly gone over a number of yesterday's posts and I saw that multiple people had a change of mind including CES and MBL. No evidence that any one of them in particular was cop before people started "drawing attention away". With that number of bandwagoners, I don't see why MBL needed to draw attention away from the cop - he was already hidden. And when MBL did acted, he took stubbornness to mean copness and failed to see the hint pointing to the real cop. The mere action of drawing attention away from a cop draws attention to the idea there is one. So it doesn't have the desired effect.

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job - at least at that point in the game. The town was under the impression there was a roleblocker, so even the assumption there's a second cop means he was thinking like a scumbag (scared of coppish players). We know they found the last cop, so they must've spent time during the day to find him.

MBL also sent us on a wild goose chase for non-existent information which left us with less time to follow real leads.

FOS: MBL

Definitely on the scummy list.

[Patrick]

MBL - Mind explaining your vote on CES more? You've played with him alot I presume, so do you have any metagame on him that makes you think he'd be more likely to act retarded like this if he was scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job - at least at that point in the game. The town was under the impression there was a roleblocker, so even the assumption there's a second cop means he was thinking like a scumbag (scared of coppish players). We know they found the last cop, so they must've spent time during the day to find him.

MBL also sent us on a wild goose chase for non-existent information which left us with less time to follow real leads.

FOS: MBL

Definitely on the scummy list.

Wow is this a scummy, misleading post. Let me count the ways.

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job

1) I wasn't "looking for cops to begin with", I was trying to match up players' firmness of suspicions with the reasoning behind them, to see who was blowing smoke up people's arses about their top suspect. Glork often overexaggerates his positivity, but he's more likely to do it on D1/2. So when he posted indicating near-certainty of Thesp's innocence, followed by certainty of CDB's guilt, I had to read Glork specifically to find out whether that perspective could be supported by his arguments or not. And in the process I learned that he was the cop. So your insinuation about my actions is misleading--I was looking for disproportionately aggressive scum.

The town was under the impression there was a roleblocker

2) The town wasn't under the impression that there was a roleblocker at the time I made my "discovery". In fact, you could argue that my piling on the wagon was what led to CDB's bull claim, because the timeline went: Thesp, Glork, Fritz, MBL, CDB fakeclaims. You didn't take the time to understand my actions in the context of gamestate, which is something I see scum as more likely to do than town.

We know they found the last cop, so they must've spent time during the day to find him.

3) Yeah, I ended up finding a cop yesterday. But it was the wrong one. You conveniently left that leap of logic out of your explicit case against me.

In other words, it's fine for you to lie your ass off and explain yourself after the fact

4) The underlying tone in your post is unhappiness that CDB was caught...

And yes, as a matter of fact, it is ok to lie in this circumstance. From the logic you've constructed, I'm assuming that you'd have wanted me to say "hey hey hey CDB is scum cause I think a cop found him guilty that's my explanation and im stickin to it". I had that option, and I chose deception seeing as how it could buy us at least one more investigation. I asked people to read CDB and comment, which was a tactic intended to move votes and help spot scum commenting blithely about their scumpartner.

I was even considering claiming cop at the end of yesterday in order to draw the heat--that's how certain I was that Glork was a cop. The only reason I didn't is because I thought he might misinterpret my actions and do something stupid like counterclaim.

At the time of these events yesterday, I was near the top of everyone's pro-town lists best I can remember. I can't imagine scum would have taken the risk that I took. Graaaaaaaaaaaaaah. I saw a cop about to get himself whacked and I took the chance to cover his tracks.

Glork, can you please explain how you became certain Fritz was a cop? I couldn't rationalize your behavior yesterday in any other way than that you were a cop, so now that I see you were acting on faith alone, your certainty of CDB's guilt disturbs me.

[MrBuddyLee]

Patrick, the only metagame I've ever thought I had on CES is that he's chattier when he's scum. I do know that I always want to lynch him for being unhelpful, and in fact I've used him as a foil at least twice when I was scum because his nonsensical suspicions opened him up to easy endgame mislynches. I voted him this game for crappy suspicions plus what I thought was a linguistic slip--I think his behavior has definitely been scummy in this game.

[Glork]

First of all, Fritz repeatedly berated players for voting Thesp, both during D2 and early in D3. When Fritz comes out of nowhere and just asserts that people are pro-town, it's

almost

always a sign that he's a cop. Here are a few examples from Mafia 49 and Kingmaker 1, when Fritz was also a Cop:

RAJ isn't scum guys.

pretty sure bj is town so....

I don't think n lich is that scummy.

If anything I'd say n lich is a GG

I don't think n-lich should be nailed.

that's cuz n lich and me are pro town

I daresay it's blindingly obvious when Fritzler is a cop, at least in my opinion. To my knowledge, he does not simply waltz up and state that people are pro-town if he doesn't have some kind of information. So when I did my extensive re-read and I saw Fritz repeatedly telling us all that Thesp wasn't the play, I decided that he was probably a cop. Combine that with my increasing suspicions of CDB, and I decided that FritzCop, ThespTown, and CDBScum was very likely the case. That's when I decided to try to drop heavy hints to draw some blaster fire.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's definitely true. Fritz can be very obvious sometimes.

[Thesp]

I wouldn't call that a blatant misrepresentation, CES. I actually got the same feeling, because I don't think you made it very clear that it was the roleclaim which changed your mind. Explaining it after the fact does not exempt you, so I see where Thesp was coming from.

Misrepresentation may be the wrong word, but not mentioning the context is still manipulative.

I get the feeling you are making things up. Please show me how context changes this. I thought I'd just gone over that in the post 3 before yours.

I have to point out, again, that that final quote was an attack on you far more than it was in any way a defense of Channel.

I agree it was an attack on me. I don't think you can easily separate it from the case against CDB (which I was at the time strongly presenting), as you seem to be trying to do.

Thesp, weren't you the slightest bit interested in what MBL had found?

Actually I wasn't, because I thought it would be role-related somehow. There were a number of scenarios I had conceived where MrBuddyLee was town wanting to get CDB lynched without letting out too much information, and I thought prying it from him would be detrimental.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You had assumed him to be lying?

[Mgm]

I get the feeling you are making things up. Please show me how context changes this. I thought I'd just gone over that in the post 3 before yours.

Both myself and CES have covered this already. That posted was intended to make CES look bad, but if it was put into context with the claim he'd look a lot better. Leaving it out changes the entire meaning/tone of the post.

[Mgm]

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job - at least at that point in the game. The town was under the impression there was a roleblocker, so even the assumption there's a second cop means he was thinking like a scumbag (scared of coppish players). We know they found the last cop, so they must've spent time during the day to find him.

MBL also sent us on a wild goose chase for non-existent information which left us with less time to follow real leads.

FOS: MBL

Definitely on the scummy list.

Wow is this a scummy, misleading post. Let me count the ways.

I wonder why he was looking for cops to begin with, that's a scum job

1) I wasn't "looking for cops to begin with", I was trying to match up players' firmness of suspicions with the reasoning behind them, to see who was blowing smoke up people's arses about their top suspect. Glork often overexaggerates his positivity, but he's more likely to do it on D1/2. So when he posted indicating near-certainty of Thesp's innocence, followed by certainty of CDB's guilt, I had to read Glork specifically to find out whether that perspective could be supported by his arguments or not. And in the process I learned that he was the cop. So your insinuation about my actions is misleading--I was looking for disproportionately aggressive scum.

CES is showing certainty Thesp is the godfather. He can't be another cop. Showing certainty or using arguments you happen to agree with is no clear sign someone is a cop. There's also scum who say they're certain about someone's innocence/guilt.

The town was under the impression there was a roleblocker

2) The town wasn't under the impression that there was a roleblocker at the time I made my "discovery". In fact, you could argue that my piling on the wagon was what led to CDB's bull claim, because the timeline went: Thesp, Glork, Fritz, MBL, CDB fakeclaims. You didn't take the time to understand my actions in the context of gamestate, which is something I see scum as more likely to do than town.

There was a wagon on CDB so those people believed he was lying about being the blocker, but the reason he claimed blocker was because that was the role people were talking about. At least one person said something like "Roleblockers are relatively weak" (it that case with the meaning: it's okay to lynch him even if we're wrong). And that was not the only person discussing a possible roleblocker. Your discovery did nothing for the CDB wagon or his claim. You piling on your vote probably did that. No one found anything in his posts and as far as I can tell it didn't help anyone cross the line who didn't already believe he was guilty.

We know they found the last cop, so they must've spent time during the day to find him.

3) Yeah, I ended up finding a cop yesterday. But it was the wrong one. You conveniently left that leap of logic out of your explicit case against me.

That's not the point. The fact you say you chose the wrong cop doesn't change anything about what I said. My case said you were looking for one. Fritzler was obvious about it and if you are indeed scum, your buddy wouldn't have hesitated to point it out and open discussion to make a choice between the two. Steering people away from a non-cop and onto the real one (post 1231) didn't protect Fritzler either, so choosing the wrong cop can hardly be a defense.[/quote]

In other words, it's fine for you to lie your ass off and explain yourself after the fact

4) The underlying tone in your post is unhappiness that CDB was caught...

Talk about misleading. The underlying tone is that I'm unhappy with you lying and telling us to focus on someone who's already dying when we could be spending time with looking for information that actually existed. The last bit in there ("after the fact") was with regard to your comment to CES. If you say he explaining himself after the fact is scummy, then it is equally scummy when you do it -- moreso if you lied in the process.

And yes, as a matter of fact, it is ok to lie in this circumstance. From the logic you've constructed, I'm assuming that you'd have wanted me to say "hey hey hey CDB is scum cause I think a cop found him guilty that's my explanation and im stickin to it".

No, that would've meant lying and I've just gone through great lengths to explain I believe that was wrong.

I had that option, and I chose deception seeing as how it could buy us at least one more investigation. I asked people to read CDB and comment, which was a tactic intended to move votes and help spot scum commenting blithely about their scumpartner.

CDB was already a lost cause. If any scum associated themselves with him, I'd be very surprised. I'm convinced scum was early on the wagon to look innocent.

I can't imagine scum would have taken the risk that I took.

How exactly do you consider killing a scumbuddy and covering the tracks of a supposed cop a risk for a scumbag?

[Patrick]

I find Mgm's case against MBL to be relatively uninteresting. Ether, you've been on scumchat the past two nights, would it have hurt to just pop in and quickly explain to us the numbers thing in your posts, so we actually have a clearer idea? You do have permission to post more often than once every 4 days.

Mod

please prod Zindaras for us.

[Mgm]

Uninteresting? Doesn't that last point at least pique your interest a little bit?