Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Patrick]

Rest:
Cogito Ergo Sum
Glork
MrBuddyLee
Nightfall
Zindaras

Do you have anything that you think seperates these players at all in terms of scumminess?

CES is being annoying, spammy, not making sense etc. I'm not sure what to say. It could be a way of avoiding actually contributing any content I suppose. Even if he is town and strongly suspects Thesp, he seems to have forgotten that half the game is convincing other people of your suspicions.

[Thesp]

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum.

I was hesitant to throw the vote on earlier (as it's 4 to lynch), but I'm okay with it at the moment.

[Patrick]

GAME STATUS: Day 4 - 9 alive means 5 to lynch!

[Thesp]

GAME STATUS: Day 4 - 9 alive means 5 to lynch!

I'm clearly not paying attention.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: CES how can you think that a lynch an "investigated innocent". Why jump right to the Godfather theory?

Dude, we have 2 scum left. Obviously the investigation result reduces the chance he's scum, but not to the extent that I now think he's town. He also didn't shy away from attention like a Goon would, so I kinda thought he was more likely to be the Godfather anyhow. We have one Godfather and one Goon left. He's scum, but he can't be the goon. Ergo, he's the Godfather.

If you want to draw a parallel to another game here, Glrok, I'd say it'd be Two-Headed. I totally knew Djelibeybi was scum, but I was completely incapable of getting the town to lynch him.

Thesp, nice OMGUS.

Seriously, town, when I'm dead, trust me. I am right about Thesp. I'm not making this up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, I re-read Zindie's posts and he looks town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

And I was thinking about the Fritzkill. I'd say that Thesp was in an excellent position to notice Fritz had an innocent on him.

On a similar note, MBL, could you point out some specific posts by Glrok that you felt hinted at copness?

[Mgm]

Rest:
Cogito Ergo Sum
Glork
MrBuddyLee
Nightfall
Zindaras

Do you have anything that you think seperates these players at all in terms of scumminess?

Not yet. I'm hoping to get some reading done to separate these players in the other two lists. This may take a while because recent events mean I may seriously have to reconsider my earlier thoughts.

At the moment I'd lean towards town on Nightfall (nothing much changed with him yet, but I haven't reviewed his most recent posts to confirm that when I posted those lists - that's why he's in this list and not the town one). CES seemed townish to me earlier but he's starting to look worse with his recent posts.

Glork, MBL and Zindaras are hard to read. I still don't trust Glork and MBL because of earlier, but I'm not as sure about them as I was before. What exactly Zindaras is, I'm not sure. (Hmm, that didn't came out right. Don't feel offended .)

[Thesp]

Dude, we have 2 scum left. Obviously the investigation result reduces the chance he's scum, but not to the extent that I now think he's town. He also didn't shy away from attention like a Goon would, so I kinda thought he was more likely to be the Godfather anyhow.

I'm strongly thinking people are overemphasizing general tendencies of how players play when they are Godfather as opposed to Goons.

And I was thinking about the Fritzkill. I'd say that Thesp was in an excellent position to notice Fritz had an innocent on him.

I did indeed think Fritzler was a cop. It seems like scum picked up on the same observation. Interesting you bring that up, given you've been focused (seemingly) solely on me since the beginning of Day 2, and I may have indicated my thoughts on his copness on D2. (You also indicate you recognize Fritzler's obvious copness early today, though it is impossible to ascertain whether this is before or after the fact has been revealed.) I've also reviewed your posts, and noted your contribution to the terribly-advised spectrumvoid wagon that outed another power role. I've also noted your defense/feigned disinterest of CDB when you refer to him:

Well, you've expressed suspicion of CDB quite often and it doesn't feel like distancing to me, so I consider him slightly pro-townish looking. Other than that though, CDB's been lurking, a slight scum tell in his case I'd say, but there's nothing in his posts that makes alarm bells go off.

Also note that ChannelDelibird has been incredibly active on the site other than this game.

Nah, certainly not. I think he's been more active elsewhere, yes, but certainly not to that extent, crazy Thesp.

MrBuddyLee, why don't you share what you "found" in his posts? If it is damning as you make it out to be, then I see no reason to out the real last power role.

If he's town, he obviously thinks that asking for a counterclaim rather than just getting lynched is a good idea.

This is the second time you've attempted to discredit a valid point by ignoring specific context. (It makes sense for him to ask for counterclaims, much in the same way I didn't think you were typically lazy.)

Also noted: your suspicion of ChannelDelibird grows severely stronger when it's evident CDB will be the day's lynch.

Cogito Ergo Sum, you continue to stall in giving answers to who else you think is scum. If I recall correctly, ChannelDelibird did the same thing when pressed. I'm noticing a pattern.

Happy, happy, happy with my vote.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm strongly thinking people are overemphasizing general tendencies of how players play when they are Godfather as opposed to Goons.

I only had it 60-40 though. And Goons should be more afraid of investigation. It's not that I think Godfathers really seek out investigation, but they're not going to try and avoid it either.

You also indicate you recognize Fritzler's obvious copness early today, though it is impossible to ascertain whether this is before or after the fact has been revealed

When you re-read his posts with his copness in mind, it's easy, yeah. He didn't really try to hide it, it seems. And that last statement had struck a chord with me. It seemed out of place. His copness explained it.

Also noted: your suspicion of ChannelDelibird grows severely stronger when it's evident CDB will be the day's lynch.

My suspicion of ChannelDelibird grew severely stronger when he claimed. I made that very clear.

The second and fourth points are criticisms of your attacks and I certainly stand by my second statement. I don't see how the third would constitute a defense. I could not have known that MBL's "info" was bogus.

Cogito Ergo Sum, you continue to stall in giving answers to who else you think is scum. If I recall correctly, ChannelDelibird did the same thing when pressed. I'm noticing a pattern.

It's either a scum tell(in general) or it's not. You can't seriously be suggesting that it's a scum tell

in this game

. This is a silly point. Also, Channel is a lurker. I don't find scum with regularity. I'm however working on finding the final scum. I've already eliminated Glrok, Zindaras and Mgm.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm however working on finding the final scum. I've already eliminated Glrok, Zindaras and Mgm.

Odd choice of words considering there are two scum remaining.

vote: CES

[Patrick]

Not really. He claims he's already found one scum in Thesp.

[MrBuddyLee]

Oh. I believe my vote makes three, so I'll leave it on.

Glork, why were you so certain about CDB yesterday? Why are you shying away from CES today?

[Glork]

1) My thoughts on CDB have already been posted. See my big long analyses as to why I started suspecting him. Also, I had picked up on FritzCop and his Thesp investigation, so when CDB claimed to be a Roleblocker, that's when I was "100%" positive that he was scum.

2) I can't go into specifics, because what I have in mind refers to an ongoing game, but let it suffice to say that the kind of stubbornness I'm seeing in CES is a pro-town tell. That's not to say that I agree with his assessment of Thesp (because I don't), but I'm not as sure about him as I was. Also, the wagon on him today feels a little off; I can't quite put my finger on it. What I

can

say is that I don't like the justification of your vote on him, MBL. You're voting him for a tangential semantics reason which, IMO, is quite obviously explained by the fact that he's been calling Thesp a scumbag for a couple of days now. The "second" scumbag in his mind is very clearly Thesp, so your guess that he slipped up in any way is... well, completely wrong.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You could point to Two-Headed, Glrok, although my stubbornness regarding Djelibeybi is somewhat harder to notice due to a claimed scum and the cult threat, both of which were more important than him being scummity scum.

[Glork]

...still waiting ot hear from Ether and Zindaras. My patience grows thin.

[Ether]

Hi. The below is not alphabetical. The numbers in between the names signify how far a leap they are, with 3 being "for serious, yo" and 1 being "but if I'm in an endgame with these people and they vote each other, I'll scream."

vote: Nightfall

: He's still scum. (I will acknowledge that the kill didn't look like Nightfall's doing at all, nor Channel's. Awesome. We should discuss at some point who wouldn't catch on to Fritzler so they can get town points. (This is where my train of thought fails me; I'm not sure who else wouldn't. It got by me, but I suppose that's not the answer you want to hear.))

3

Zindaras: Weak, compatible with Channel. Er...pretty much what other people said; if he's scum, I don't expect to take credit here.

2

ohoho, now wait a minute. Was that L-1 too close for comfort? Did I call your bluff on your bus attempt?

MBL: ...so he was trying to deflect the heat onto himself or what? I'm confused and I really don't see where any cop hints were.

2

CES: His Thesp fanaticism is getting in the

way

; otherwise, I'd hardly care. I won't touch CES in the near future unless Nightfall dies as town; Nightfall picked on him a few times in late Day 3 as Channel was dying and today.

1

Patrick: Like with CES, I want alignments first--Patrick voted Zindaras right off the bat today, and I'd rather kill Zindaras than Patrick. He's slightly below CES because my main concern was based on a pairing.

1

Mgm: Baffling. Okay--metagaming time. In Orient Express, he dropped the no-lynch voting Amb (it seems to be an Amb thing) only to support a policy lynch. I wasn't as thorough with games I didn't live, but he doesn't seem to back scumbuddies up to the ends of the Earth. I'm empathetic toward his Channel comment--I had similar misgivings by the time Andrew swung, although he was town--but...why Glork and MBL?

3

Thesp: Presumably half the likelihood of being scum of us nonMgms (I've never heard of godfather lightning rods). Handed us Channel. I didn't feel like he capitalized on my failure to hammer him (though if memory serves only two people (MBL and Mgm) were toting that, and if he's scum and therefore unnightkillable I don't really expect to outlive him).

1

Glork: He

cares

, and his agreement was in my perspective where the tables turned on Channel.

[Patrick]

Let me check what this numbers thing means. 3 between two people means they could well be connected and 1 means not? Or are the numbers just referring to individuals?

As for the CES wagon, one of his voters makes a fair case for voting him, the other two not really. Thesp had some fair points about CES changing fairly quickly on CDB and being generally unhelpful. His attack on Thesp seems ludicrously prolonged and stubborn. I find it hard to see why he would do it as scum in this situation, when it's obviously not getting anywhere, unless he's just trying to be consistent and stick to his guns (and avoid saying much of anything on anyone else). I think there are better places to look than CES at this point, like Zindaras. I personally think the case against Zindaras in stronger than the one against CES, but it's interesting how the CES wagon seems to grow far more easily.

MBL - Mind explaining your vote on CES more? You've played with him alot I presume, so do you have any metagame on him that makes you think he'd be more likely to act retarded like this if he was scum? Nightfall what about you?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Thesp had some fair points about CES changing fairly quickly on CDB

Are you talking about his blatant misrepresentation?

[Patrick]

Are you talking about his blatant misrepresentation?

Can't say that I've seen one.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also noted: your suspicion of ChannelDelibird grows severely stronger when it's evident CDB will be the day's lynch.

This one. It completely fails to mention Channel's claim, the cause of my change in opinion. And if there's one pro-town thing that I'm proud of, it's that I'm not blinded by claims and that I can recognize that in many setups claiming a power role actually makes someone more likely to be scum. (In a 3 scum, 1 power role situation with plenty of incentive to try and draw out a counterclaim, this is especially true.)

[Glork]

I wouldn't call that a blatant misrepresentation, CES. I actually got the same feeling, because I don't think you made it very clear that it was the

roleclaim

which changed your mind. Explaining it after the fact does not exempt you, so I see where Thesp was coming from.



Re: Ether
I'd like her to explain her ranking system a little more clearly. From reading the post, it just looks like the number below each player is "I find 3s to be very likely scum, 1s to be unlikely scum." However, there's no number below my name. I'm a little confused as to her organization.

I agree that MBL should point out all the places he saw cop hints. I also want you to explain how "dropping cop hints" necessarily implies that CDB is likely to be scum (and, more importantly a good lynch). I'm

very

confused on that one.

I'm starting to smell something fishy with MBL. I'm also going to go back and review MBL's attitude towards CDB. My feeling as of last night is that it's not CES who is the dirty scumbag jumping aboard to bus his scumbuddy, but MBL. Make sweeping bold statements about how CDB is scum, then get loud and forceful during it and in the aftermath. Things like the "are you worried that I called your bluff?" comment and now his harping on CES. I really get the feeling that MBL knew CDB was screwed, likely because of a Cop investigation, so he decided to look like one of the guys taking CDB down, and then he became responsible for the nightkill of Fritz.

Unvote Ether, Vote: Zindaras

for two reasons: I also see him as a potential scumbag, and I want him to post.

Major FoS/IGMEOY: MBL

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I wouldn't call that a blatant misrepresentation, CES. I actually got the same feeling, because I don't think you made it very clear that it was the roleclaim which changed your mind. Explaining it after the fact does not exempt you, so I see where Thesp was coming from.

Hmm. At the very least he should've mentioned it though.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, your theory's a load.

I really get the feeling that MBL knew CDB was

screwed

scum, likely because of a Cop investigation, so he decided to look like one of the guys taking CDB down, and then he became responsible for the nightkill of Fritz.

Great detective work ace, I've already pointed out that I voted CDB because I thought you were a cop with a guilty on him. It's going to be painful to go back and reconstruct why, but I'll do so and it oughta make perfect sense. I was trying to draw heat away from you, so it's not surprising people are on my ass today.

It was this exchange that turned my head 180 degrees:

Ether doesn't look town at all to me, CES bothers me, Zindaras bothers me, and the CDB wagon looks suspiciously scum-driven so I'm reading the fine print on that one.

Explain this. Thesp and I have pushed CDB the most by far, and Fritz hopped aboard recently. A few other people have expressed passing suspicions of CDB, but nobody else has decided to ride the gravy train. You call Ether, CES, and Zindaras suspicions -- and none of them have expressed much suspicion of CDB (if any at all). Yet you think CDB's wagon is "suspiciously scum-driven"?

he may get knocked down a notch

when

CDB turns up scum

Early morning slip of the wrist?

FOS: Glork

Quite intentional, actually.

And then I went back further and found the following:

Can we just pressure Ether, lynch CDB, and go to night?

:knowstuff: [/Fritz]

I also think that his suspicion of CDB was pretty much right on the mark.
Probably Scum:
CDB

I still believe that Thesp is very likely pro-town.

In the meantime, I want to lynch somebody that I am

sure

is scum. And that person is CDB (or Zindaras, probably).

You were way too certain of Thesp being town, and the only way I could explain that was that you knew his suspicions of CDB were accurate and you read him as not busing a scumpartner for three straight days. I debated briefly whether your hints were too blatant to be a cop but I figured also that if you were a cop who found Thesp suspicious, you would have investigated CDB in order to essentially get two results for the price of one. So I spent the rest of the day obfuscating, trying to blur the situation and gambling that you would live to get us another result. And gambling that if I was wrong about you being a cop or CDB being scum that I could survive my miscalculation today by pointing out my thought process.

[Glork]

Ohhhhh, I misread. I thought you were saying that

CDB

was dropping cop-hints, and that confused the living hell out of me.

Yes, I tried to hint at being a Cop. I was hoping to draw the mafia kill to myself, so that Fritz might live an extra day. The ":knowstuff: [/Fritz]" post was a signal to Fritz that I knew he was the Cop. I'm reasonably sure he picked up on it.

I'm still a little confused about the post in which you switch to CDB, though:

vote: ChannelDelibird.

I've spotted something very naughty. I suggest the rest of you read his posts with a fine-toothed comb if you already haven't.

Could you cite the exact post/place with this "something very naughty" that you seem to have found?