Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[Adele]

I'll repeat the question, Glork. What is so scummy about Adele apart from the supposed Mgm-connection?

Her mannerisms in dealing with the SV and Andrew bandwagons did not sit well with me. I got the feeling that she was trying to appear helpful while just sitting back and letting things happen.

Was I? I'll have to reread before I can answer that (but I have time, since you're out of town)

I *REALLY* did not like the way she said that I "owe [MGM] an apology" in 477 when MGM responded to my attacks on him a few posts earlier.

That was a joke, dude. I was playing kindergarten teacher. Sorry if it annoyed you, but I was just needling you for a bit of fun. "You were wrong, hahaha" might've been more obvious.

As far as I can tell, she never responded to my question in Post 537 asking why she wasn't voting.

I sorta did, but to be fair, it was ages later, and I didn't state at the time that I was answering a question.
The thread was dead, then suddenly everyone flooded in and posted when I was away for a couple days. By the time I got back, there was like a page and a half. If I miss a question, it's worth repeating it.
Anyhow, I said later that I was a ways off being ready to vote, because I hadn't formed any strong enough opinions, and there was too much going on that I needed to sort out in my head.

I'm put off by the way that both MGM and Adele jumped on Thesp.

Thesp was, from the start, a compromise candidate that people across factions found something amiss with.

Post 597 is more evidence of my supsicions. When somebody loses a post, even if it was a day or two before, they usually at least have an idea of what they were thinking. This type of carelessness/forgetfulness ("I forgot what I wanted to say," "I forgot who I was voting for," and so on) is, IMO, a very legitimate scumtell in experienced, intelligent players... which Adele certainly is. I feel as though that was another post that tried to make it look like Adele cared/particpated more than she actually has.

You call me intelligent in the same post as you say you usually think I'm scummy.
Anyway, yes. I lost a post, and I still don't remember what I said. This game is tough. There's no flavour to use to remember it, it started with more players, all very good, very high posters, and MBL's in it (I'm playing another game with it and I'm getting the two hims confused). So when I actually spend an hour doing research writing a notepad doc of my findings and then can't see the post (which I'm 95% sure I

did

post), I'm gonna stomp my foot about it and make sure you all know about my plight. That's just the kind of player that I am.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why so certain?

Gut + Metagame, essentially.

[Thesp]

Unvote: ChannelDelibird, Vote: Adele.

I would prefer to be voting for ChannelDelibird and would gladly switch to lynch him.

[Patrick]

We don't have very much time left.

Ether, you've been lurking even more than usual in this game. Please explain the alledged double standard that Nightfall has applied, and why you've chosen to only pick him up for making the distinction that other players made as well.

Zindaras, please give examples of where I've been overaggressive and OMGUSy. I'm interested why you added that I had been like that towards particularly you since I can't really remember you even attacking me before now.

[Ether]

I'm not supposed to be online now. No, that's not really an excuse for yesterday. Or the day before. Or--pfeh, this is awkward.

Part of me wonders if maybe she's trying to cause a distraction of some kind so as to pull us away from this other debate.

Sadly, the real cause is just boredom: the position already seems to have a figurehead and a following, and coming in after it's all been said just makes me disinterested. Hmm, that wasn't very eloquent.

I'd be okay with an Adele/Mgm lynch, and I acknowledge the deadline. My to-do list is just sitting there calling to me to look again before this time, gah: in my memory there's still not much telling me why they're grouped together so much. I'll be

quite

interested to hear Glork elaborate on Adele/Patrick: my Nightfall/Patrick feelings make this very enticing. I don't like the vast majority of the reasons for a Thesplynch--I have explained why, although I don't think Thesp has answered my question--and I don't have substitute reasons. Outside of deadline concerns, I wouldn't support a Thesplynch.

what are you, a quitter?

Pretty much. I personally justify it with a "Let's see some more alignments first," but I suspect that this may be my procrastination instinct speaking.

Ether - I'm not sure how you've managed to link me to Nightfall. You claim he showed a double standard between my defence of Andrew and yours, even though several other people have apparently done the same thing. That suggests that there was actually a difference, and not a double standard being applied at all.

Except that they haven't. These others either poked at both of us or stated reasons which suggested this difference. If my memory's halfway decent, only Nightfall doesn't really bring you up, and he was one of my few Day 1

voters

.

-Says that he doesn’t like pats comment that a short time until deadline means that we need to decide which vote leader to lynch.

This coming after he just started a new bandwagon by rolling a pair of dice? Pat’s reasoning to me seemed much more based on reason. On the surface at least.

(

o.

O

I just realized that he calls Patrick "Pat" at some points, which I hadn't picked up on the first time I tried Find. Nightfall, you never really elaborate on this sentence and I'm not sure what you're insinuating with it.)

Ether's post 700: You don't find false-dilemma attacks scummy? O.o

(Um. Thesp attacked other people in other games in which he was town for irrelevant false dilemmas. What he did to Patrick was not a false dilemma or an accusation of a false dilemma, but I found the attack similarly not worth my time--and similarly Thespian. Understood?)

As for Nightfall, do you really see his significant efforts as scummy? I see sincerity of suspicion and uncertainty.

Please clarify what "significant effort" refers to if you want to know if I find it scummy in particular.

No, I'm serious! I'd love to sort this out.

[MrBuddyLee]

As for Nightfall, do you really see his significant efforts as scummy? I see sincerity of suspicion and uncertainty.

Please clarify what "significant effort" refers to if you want to know if I find it scummy in particular.

No, I'm serious! I'd love to sort this out.

Are you kidding me? After all this time, you come back to clarify the definition of "significant effort"? Ridiculously dilatory tactics this close to deadline.

I'll respond in brief to highlight the incomprehensibility of your request. Nightfall's probably given us more analytical content to work with than any other player. The only problem at this point is that he's gone alphabetically and left out MGM->Zindy (5 players, 1-2 of whom are scummy). But if you do anything other than skim his posts, you'll see he's made evaluative remarks on dozens of specific passages, which 1) is a sign he's not lazy scum and 2) is more and more difficult to do and fake curiosity and uncertainty as the amount of analytical comment grows.

So I'll repeat the question. Can you please explain what pattern of deception you see in Nightfall's posts, Ether? Your consistent votes on him look to be for incredibly shaky reasons.

unvote; vote: Nightfall

I really don't see any point whatsoever to his new posting style, and I probably still wouldn't if I was at the height of my mental health. A few paragraphs of personal opinion, please; I trust the filter for the rest.

Mgm is more scum than Thesp but less scum than Nightfall. Channel's somewhere up there if Nightfall and Mgm really can't provide leads, yeah, whatever. (Speaking of leads, Adele is meh; could somebody resummarize the Adele/Mgm connection?)

Not only were Nightfall's attacks on me stretchy, they were stretchy

from other people

. I don't see much in his PBPs, particularly the one on me... Anyway, this paragraph is getting long. Let's just kill him.

vote: Nightfall

)

[Mr Stoofer]

Vote Count

Thesp: 4 (ChannelDelibird Cogito Ergo Sum Adele Mgm)
Adele: 3 (Glork Fritzler Thesp)
Mgm: 2 (Patrick Zindaras)
Ether: 2 (MrBuddyLee Nightfall)
Nightfall : 1 (Ether)


Not voting:

Looking for 7 votes for a lynch!

48 hours and 47 minutes until deadline!

[Patrick]

Except that they haven't. These others either poked at both of us or stated reasons which suggested this difference. If my memory's halfway decent, only Nightfall doesn't really bring you up, and he was one of my few Day 1 voters.

There was a difference between the way you and I defended AndrewS. Therefore, Nightfall can't have been applying a double standard. A double standard as I understand it, only applies if someone treats two people differently when they've done the same thing. I don't off the top of my head really remember anyone saying much about the way I defended Andrew. (Though I don't have time to check right now). I remember Adele and Glork commenting on your defence on him but not mine. And IH seemed to find yours more noteworthy, or at least more scummy. So I still don't see any double standard being applied here.

I would like Glork to now explain why he thinks I am scum with Adele, now that he's back. Also

FoS Zindaras.

[Glork]

The whole "Professor Plum"/evidence thing pinged when I read over it.

I would strongly agree with Thesp's take that, if there is more evidence to point to something (Plum being found holding the bloody knife), then you should work off of the most simple/logical conclusion (that Plum killed Mr. Boddy). As Thesp said, he exaggerated the example to prove a point, yet you

still

agreed with what I think is a ridiculous conclusion. As further evidence presents itself, that conclusion is subject to change, but if you see a man standing over a body holding a bloody knife you're not going to go "Nah, he didn't kill him..."

The fact that Adele supported you and simultaneously attacked Thesp piqued my interest. Combine that with the fact that you chose to go with the MGM lynch rather than the Adele lynch, and I thought that maybe you two were giving each other preference. It seemed like a mutual player connection to me. Yes, you've called both Adele and MGM scum. However, you have stuck with MGM this entire time, and Adele backed you as you both expressed suspicions of Thesp.

[Patrick]

would strongly agree with Thesp's take that, if there is more evidence to point to something (Plum being found holding the bloody knife), then you should work off of the most simple/logical conclusion (that Plum killed Mr. Boddy). As Thesp said, he exaggerated the example to prove a point, yet you still agreed with what I think is a ridiculous conclusion. As further evidence presents itself, that conclusion is subject to change, but if you see a man standing over a body holding a bloody knife you're not going to go "Nah, he didn't kill him..."

I think I'm starting to lose track of what point he was even making at the time. I still have no problem with the answer given in his example. It's not as you said it. He didn't see a man standing over a dead body with a knife, nor did he say nah he didn't kill him.. He just knows that a bloody knife was later found on Plum, but isn't sure whether or not he was the killer. A strict yes or no answer isn't required. I'm amazed at how anyone can argue the opposite.

The fact that Adele supported you and simultaneously attacked Thesp piqued my interest. Combine that with the fact that you chose to go with the MGM lynch rather than the Adele lynch, and I thought that maybe you two were giving each other preference. It seemed like a mutual player connection to me. Yes, you've called both Adele and MGM scum. However, you have stuck with MGM this entire time, and Adele backed you as you both expressed suspicions of Thesp.

Yes, Adele did back me on that point, as did several others (because he was basically full of it). Using it as a reason to vote him struck me as strange.
However, noting that I voted Mgm over Adele for a while is a fairly astute observation. I did have reasons for favouring Adele over mgm at that point which I didn't reveal. Having thought about it, I think I'll reveal them now since I was obviously wrong in an assumption. I looked at your play, and thought (wrongly it seems) that you were a cop with a guilty on Mgm. This struck me when you made post 579 if I remember rightly, with your unusual use of the word naive, and the suggestion that mgm was guilty until proven innocent in your eyes. When I looked back over your play today, everything made sense for it; the immediate mgm vote at the start, constant attacks on Mgm without letting up. Post 568, which came after I made a post saying that obviously we can't be sure what Mgm's intent was, and that mafia isn't a game of certainties, where you just said "DEFEATIST!" suggested that you were in fact certain of his intent. And then later,in the exchange with CDB when he accused you of being "too concrete than anyone can be reasonably sure of", you seemed to be hinting again that you actually

could

be that certain.

I don't mind saying this now because it seems I was wrong in that assumption. But at the time, that's what tipped it towards voting Mgm over Adele. I find them roughly equivalent now, though I'll likely switch to Adele to make the deadline.

[Adele]

Damnation.

I'm the cop. I got an innocent on mgm last night. He could be GF, but it was enough for me to oppose his lynch today.

I'm sorry I didn't defend myself better, and had to resort to this, but with less than 36 hours to go, it seemed necessary.

[Glork]

Oh balls.

I have to think about this.

[Nightfall]

:post comming tommorrow.:

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Hey guys, you suck.

Can we lynch Thesp now?

[MrBuddyLee]

After some malarkey that happened earlier in the thread combined with the death of the vig, I am watching for a few reactions before deciding whether or not to trust Adele's claim.

[Mgm]

I'm listening to CES and I'm not going to risk losing a cop just because someone's paranoid. If Adele fails to deliver us scum or messes up some other way, she can always be lynched later (not that she should be). Right now she should definitely be trusted.

You can choose to ignore CES, but Adele is not an option today.

[Patrick]

I don't feel like lynching Thesp.

Adele would likely have claimed a powerole if she was scum in that situation. It's still very risky to go lynching a claimed cop though. I'm not sure what to suggest. I'd go with lynching Zindaras, but I don't think anyone would follow me on that.

[Thesp]

Unvote: Adele, Vote: Ether.

CDB's stil the preferred lynch, blah blah blah.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Ugh, spectrumvoid died last Night, remember? It's very unlikely we have a doctor. Ergo, the scum'll kill her tonight. Scum wouldn't claim cop in such a situation, it'd be giving their life away. And she isn't even the top votegetter.

[Mgm]

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I don't think it's all that unlikely we have a doc. There were three power roles in the game and barring oddball combos, they all have equal chance of being used. A second cop or vig is less likely.

[Patrick]

Well yes, doctor did have as much chance as any other powerole of being put into the game. However, a doc would have protected spectrumvoid, since it seemed pretty obvious that she was telling the truth.

[Glork]

Hm. I take it there's no mason group if Adele's claim holds true.

Unvote, Vote: Thesp

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Wait. Who did you think Thesp was masoned to, then? Or what did you read as a mason hint?

[Glork]

Huh? I never did think Thesp was a mason.

[Mr Stoofer]

19 hours and 5 minutes until deadline!

Vote Count on the next page.