Mafia 60: Face-to-Face - Game over!

[spectrumvoid]

I've never ever seen scum suggest no lynch, especially a non-newbie scum.

- This formed some of my reasoning behind my earlier post (3 posts ago I think). Then I was given a link that disproves that.

- It's no longer irrelevant because almost everyone is talking about it, hence taking sides.

[IH]

I get the Ether/AndrewS lynch.

I think for Ether to be scummy though, Andrew would need to be scum. Especially with her trying to shoot down the wagon and not seeing the wifom on his defense. Seriously.

If it's so scummy why would he do it as scum? -_-'

[Glork]

Not really, IH. Scum will staunchly defend townies at time to make themselves look good. In fact, if Ether turns up scum, at this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that AndrewS is

pro-town

.

[Thesp]

I think for Ether to be scummy though, Andrew would need to be scum. Especially with her trying to shoot down the wagon and not seeing the wifom on his defense. Seriously.

Actually, I would think the opposite, as scum rarely defend their partners so openly. However, scum tend to have no problem vehemently defending a townie as innocent, particularly when they know they are correct.

[Adele]

AndrewS, I don't get your vote on mgm.

This is invitational only.
You would assume that would mean better teams of scum and town.
You would also assume town would pick up on things more.
A scumtell appears.
Town jumps on it.
Town jumps off of it for it going to fast.

._. anyone see what I'm saying?

lol. Qft. That's where I was coming from earlier.

Although I am now thinking that this might have been blown out of proportion.

AndrewS, I think the nolynch suggestion was really dumb. Unhelpful. Crap. I don't like the justification for it either; I don't think that end justified those means. I dunno. I need to re-read, but for now,

unvote AndrewS

-

igmeoy

still though.

[AndrewS]

Regarding my vote on MGM, it's a prod to read the game more than anything. I will remove it on one of 3 conditions: 1) MGM starts reading the game and posting intelligently, 2) A better lynch candidate comes up or 3) There are enough votes to put him in danger for irrational reasons.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES is more active than usual early, probably because Andrew's blood is in the water. His comments so far are consistently aligned towards attaining an Andrew lynch.

Andrew realizes a trick move went horribly bad, no alignment discernable from his panicked attempt to recover. His counterwagon attempt following Glork's CES vote is transparent. He then expresses indifference about suicide a couple times, and that's not a protown action. His vote on MGM is sound, however, his expressed logic for unvoting MGM leaves the door way too open for trivial unvote, possible scumpair association.

ChannelDbird wins the late to the table on the WIFOM issue award, after interim posts avoiding it.

Patrick reaching on the issue of the Andrewwagon. From then on sounds like protown Patrick again and makes appropriate observations.

Spectrumvoid with extreme and suspect protection of Andrew. Votes CES and oddly unvotes the next day for no apparent reason.

Thesp strings up Andrew in the guise of a lesson. He proceeds to base an argument against Andrew on very factual info with what sounds like little gut instinct behind it. Most recent argument: kill Andrew to keep him from cluttering the game, almost sounds like he's assuming Andrew's town. Takes offense at Nightfall's deflection of the AndrewS lynch. Has zeroed in on "the right lynch" for today, a tactical play.

Glork makes a magnificent suggestion and only one person bites. A little later on he belabors it in the middle of other more relevant arguments, knowing full well what insightful 11 answers he's going to get. Shows consistent and aggressive protection of Thesp for unknown and apparently unfounded reasons. Glork points out IH's illogical Ether/Andrew hypothesis immediately, is apparently not in flippant Glork mode. (Thesp simulposts same.)

IH is town until his overreaching attack on Ether, which doesn't make sense. She could easily be making a protown play or be scum sucking up to a townie, either of which IH doesn't appear to consider.

Ether good observations of who appears to be playing for the town win. Later on, a post showing more thoughtfulness and curiosity. I don't have a problem with her reasoned stance on Andrew. Good poke at sv.

MGM is the first to make the move I'd expect scum to make on Glork's play, regardless of Glork's alignment. Then he makes the mistake of saying:

Granted, you might get a few scum on your bandwagon, but not because they're opportunists, it will be because you called the wagon on yourself

which seems to be assuming the township of Andrew and Glork.

Nightfall votes Ether for protecting Andrew, without really explaining whether he thinks one or both are scum. Thin contribution.

Adele hops off the Andrewwagon as it's losing steam. This is the only note I took of Adele's play, meaning she's not playing or saying much.

At the end of my read I had no notes on Zindaras, and a reread confirmed his posts were all paper-thin.

vote: MGM, FOS: Andrew

need more from Nightfall, Adele, Zindy and Fritz. Ether, Patrick looking town.

[Glork]

Unvote, Vote: Ether

[Mgm]

Unvote: Glork

Regarding my vote on MGM, it's a prod to read the game more than anything. I will remove it on one of 3 conditions: 1) MGM starts reading the game and posting intelligently, 2) A better lynch candidate comes up or 3) There are enough votes to put him in danger for irrational reasons.

I am reading the game, but that doesn't mean I'm not fallible. Just like anyone else I'm prone to forgetting and overlooking stuff. If you can't agree to that, I could say you're not reading the thread too. I had to repeat a question in post 191 because you failed the answer it earlier. Either you didn't read it, or you purposely choose not to answer a question directed at you. Neither is a particular townish reaction.

We disagree about each other's actions. That doesn't mean that the posts of either of us is less intelligent than the other. We're in an invitational, so we can assume we're both good enough players. What you said is a logical fallacy according to the MafiaWiki http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... the_Person

[Mgm]

MGM is the first to make the move I'd expect scum to make on Glork's play, regardless of Glork's alignment. Then he makes the mistake of saying:

Granted, you might get a few scum on your bandwagon, but not because they're opportunists, it will be because you called the wagon on yourself

which seems to be assuming the township of Andrew and Glork.

Yes, I entertained the idea for about two seconds, but when I posted that I was simply talking about the action I thought scum would take regardless of their (Andrew's and Glork's) alignment. Naturally scum jump on innocent lynches, but when a wagon is gaining lots of steam, scum jump on these wagons too even if they lynch their buddies just to look innocent.

[Patrick]

Ok. To comment on some of the ppl around this AndrewS wagon, I've found IH to be suspect because I thought he had bad reasons to be voting Andrew and was sucking up tp Thesp. Thesp himself seems to be playing as he normally does, and I imagine if he had sole control of today's lynch, AndrewS would have been dead around page 4. I liked MBL's observation on Thesp's play so far, he put into words nicely what I was thinking. I don't suspect Thesp right now.

I thought spectrumvoid made a strange flip flop, changing her mind from thinking that scum are crawling all over Andrew to then apparently suspecting him. The fact that Thesp provided a link to where one guy who was scum suggested no lynch doesn't seem especially relevant. At least IMO, I'm not arguing that scum would never do it, just that I don't think we have enough to justify lynching Andrew over it and I think there is plenty of other stuff to look at too. I think it's odd to suggest that Andrew as scum would suggest no lynch on the basis that he thought everyone would assume he must be innocent, maybe that's just me.

MgM has said some strange things. One that caught my eye was

AndrewS and Glork made a bad suggestion. Whether they meant it is irrelevant. Suggesting it is scummy, following through on it by making the vote is scummier.

Which seems like a very rigid policy which he adopts without applying much context. I get the feeling if I voted for no lynch right now he would consider me quite as scummy as those two. Also I found it a strange suggestion that he thought AndrewS bandwagoners are being attacked by oppotunistic scum.

I don't really understand the Ether hate, and I would quite like Glork to explain his last vote.

[Glork]

I don't really understand the Ether hate, and I would quite like Glork to explain his last vote.

Nah, I'm good.

[AndrewS]

MGM: If I missed your question, then I apologize, but your posts have been way out in left field. You are the ONLY person who thought that Glork wasn't joking. You back off after being told to read the game, and then you attack again as if nothing ever happened. Reading his posts in context would have told you that he obviously didn't mean it. Your other posts show a general lack of knowledge. Now, I suspect that you're probably town - but you're doing us and yourself a disservice by not reading the full game and paying attention.

[Adele]

Not really, IH. Scum will staunchly defend townies at time to make themselves look good. In fact, if Ether turns up scum, at this point, I'd be more inclined to believe that AndrewS is

pro-town

.

But that's WIFOM too. Ugh, at some point you have to give up drinking wine.

[Patrick]

That's not really Wifom, it's making a judgement on what we think scum are more likely to do, which is the game.

[spectrumvoid]

I need to admit that with so many people around, I'm getting a little confused.

I'm not taking specific post notes now at page 9, but the person who's bothering me most right now is IH, with that clear reach. I've read through again, and I'm still swinging here and there over Andrews VS Mgm issue.

[Glork]

That's not really Wifom, it's making a judgement on what we think scum are more likely to do, which is the game.

Winner.


If you really get down to it, Adele, there's an element of WIFOM in almost every aspect of Mafia. Can we possibly discern Ether's or AndrewS's alignments for certain at this point in the game? Absolutely not. But

experience

tells me that players who are as experienced and talented as the ones in this game are less likely to staunchly defend a scumbuddy so quickly or so willingly early in Day One. That's not to say that it is an

impossibility

, but to me, it just doesn't make sense.

[Thesp]

Awesome. MrBuddyLee is the final scum. If we have a vig, we can win by tomorrow.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Wait, who's the second scum again, Thesp?

(I'm too lazy to look.)

[Patrick]

He's picked out four ppl as scum now; AndrewS, CDB, Nightfall and MBL.

[Thesp]

ChannelDelibird.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

FoS: Patrick

for misrepresenting Thesp.

[Patrick]

He recommended Nightfall follow CDB's lead and bus AndrewS. To me that implies he thinks Nightfall is scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Such a throw-away comment can not possibly warrant an inclusion in Thesp's scum group list.

[Zindaras]

I don't get you, Zindaras.
You agree it's WIFOM, yet you don't think it's lynch-worthy.
I've seen a lot of scum, who attempted something just because scum wouldn't do that so they could use that argument. (I even did it myself over in DragonPhoenix Mafia on the GL)

If you're not going to vote someone for WIFOM, then do you have a better idea? The only reason I'm not voting yet is because I don't like fast lynches. But I'm all ready to pile up.

Unvote:Cogito Ergo Sum

I don't think WIFOM is a very strong scumtell, no. It's a scumtell, but it's not a strong one.

Okay, reread, summing up gut feelings:

-voidybuns is scum. Why are we not voting her?
-Ether's scummy.
-Adele's odd, but this is my first or second game with her, so I can't say anything about her alignment.
-I don't like Post 81-83.
-Mgm's probably town.
-I really don't like Post 109-111. And 112, too.
-CDB's prolly town.
-Mgm is still town.
-Patsy's not posting too much, but Post 174 rocks.

why is scumvoid still alive?

why didn't i get to drop the mjonlir?

will i ever get to?

all this, and more to be answered

-Have I mentioned that Fritz is totally awesome?
-I'm having a hard time reading Thesp.
-AndrewS has to get his brain together, cuz he ain't makin' no sense.
-Post 192. I had to read this one twice. Zindie no like.
-Ether's less scummy later on.

Anyway, to quickly sum it all up:

Adele: I haven't played in enough games with her to be able to read her well, but I think she's town, at the moment. The whole LaL thing and such looks pretty townish to me.

AndrewS: Shouldn't have done what he did. Hasn't been playing very well this game, regardless of his alignment.

ChannelDelibird: Gut's saying town, but not a sufficient read.

Cogito Ergo Sum: How can a fellow Dutchie be scum?

Ether: Scummy at first, less scummy later. Jury's out on her.

Fritzler: Obvobv town.

Glork: Way too bandwagonish. He's playing one of his "crazy" games, with all kinds of random stuff. However, odd bandwagoning isn't usually part of that. Has been on both of the 3-post 3-vote bandwagons I really didn't like.

IH: I haven't liked one post from him so far. That lynch-3 vote on AndrewS looks horrible, too.

MgM: He's Dutch. How can he possibly be scum?

MrBuddyLee: Really needs to post more. I disagree with, well, pretty much half of what he's saying in his analysis post, and I disagree with the rest, which isn't very useful.

Nightfall: Typical Nightfall-lurker.

Patrick: Needs to post more. What he's posted makes sense.

spectrumvoid: Why is she still alive? She's sooo obviously scum.

Thesp: I can't read the bugger for the life of me.