Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Yates]

I will also

VOTE: BloodCovenent

for reasons stated in post 34. Suggesting a PL in post 1? WTF?

I also agree that Jason likely Town slipped unless someone can point me to a game where he is terrible as scum? Honestly, that would be a really crappy gambit.

[Yates]

Yates: Your opinion on post 63, please.

lol - did you see me reading?

63 looks like a throw away wifom post that isn't worth commenting on [until there are too many]. I won't be sheeping Benmage any time soon, though, that's for sure.

As to your claim? I'll believe you are Town until I see play that suggests otherwise. I think claiming PGO out of the gate is good policy if you are Town and will likely get you killed prior to lylo if you are scum. I know you know this and know you would think through a fake claim based on the one time we were scum together. I hope it works out.

[Yates]

@jason - Are you questioning this because your flavor doesn't match your role?

[Yates]

That isn't a role fish and you know it. I never asked him for his role OR his character name. It's a simple exercise. If you are going to speculate that roles

may not

match flavor, wouldn't you check yourself before posting?

[Yates]

I wanted you to compare it to something you did as scum before. Too vague?

No, I got ya. Baseline actually

was

SK in that game, though. So that was scum-preservation on my part. I feel like it's too early for Benmage to have an SK vibe on you since we have no idea what our opposition forces are yet.

[Yates]

Whats to stop scum from claiming PGO in a game?

Nothing. BUT - best case scenario you know you are signing up to be killed in LYLO. Also, as others have pointed out, if you play scummy the Town has no reason to wait until LYLO. So you basically paint a target on your back and have everyone paying attention to every one of your posts looking for reasons to get rid of you so you have to play Townie McTownerson. As scum, this is a pretty big gamble. Plus, Acosmist claimed right out of the shoot so he also risked the "real PGO" counter claiming. I realize PGO doesn't occur with that much regularity, but it happens enough that it was a risk. These are just some of the reasons I believe his claim.

Also, playing over the top obv Town as PGO could lead to death of a Doctor or BG or Cop or Investigator or... I don't know if historically it plays out this way but I suspect that non-claiming PGO's likely kill more Town than Scum by not claiming specifically because I think there are more chances of Town visiting you than scum. But that's just a guess. I would personally claim in my first post if I were PGO.

PE: That would be sheeping you not him, right? I don't understand. Who's the shepherd?

[Yates]

In this game here, we have two people saying a PGO should just not claim, somehow magically play really well as town, and get targeted by scum and only scum.

Maybe. I need a slightly larger sample size of posts before making this determination. I know there *are* people that consider not claiming PGO out of the gate a legit strategy. I happen to disagree for all of the reasons I have already stated and you reiterated. That doesn't automagically make either of them scum but it is noteworthy.

[Yates]

NOTE TO EVERYONE: THIS DISCUSSION IS VERY DANGEROUS.

Then stop being a douche and let Jason answer the question directed at Jason for reasons Jason put forward in a post by Jason.

Also bear in mind the fact I never asked Jason to provide flavor nor did I ask Jason to provide his character. Explanation later - after Jason reflects on his post and my question.

[Yates]

@Jason - I was specifically referring to this part of your post:

I have seen theme games were main characters were bad guys in mafia games. Games were bad guys in shows were town in games.

[Yates]

OK, well my point I was making to you, was that it is not always safe to assume character flavor based on in show characteristics. And thus your comment about Solid Snake being more a JOAT than a PGO should not be seriously considered in a theme game as what you were speculating is quite dangerous.

See; to me this is a very different statement from what I actually quoted.

When you say things like this:

I have seen theme games were main characters were bad guys in mafia games. Games were bad guys in shows were town in games.

It sounds like you aren't taking the current game into account. You should be able to look at your own role and flavor and determine the likelihood of this mod speculation being accurate. Otherwise, what's the point of posting something like this?

[Yates]

Except you did. If Jason has any flavor, then he's not a VT.

Ok. This is a mostly fair point though I think my point above remains true. If you are a VT and your name is Voldemort, then what Jason was speculating would make sense. Conversely, if you are VT Uncle Vernon Dursley it makes no sense to make this speculation. That's all I meant by flavor matching the role. Anyway, I didn't want him to tell me any of that I just wanted to know why he didn't do this.

[Yates]

^So long as AV keeps sheeping me (inb4sheepedKKdamnuKK)

Bah. No one should EVER sheep you. Ever. Except when you agree with me.

[Yates]

1. I haven't found a better target? I guess there's also the fact that I find his PL post troubling as well as his sheep with no pressure post [80 - when he claims I'm flavor fishing]. Right now, he's my pony and I'm sticking with him until I find a better pony. I was planning on moving my vote to Jason if he didn't answer right - but that line of questioning went sideways and I never got the answer that would tell me if that setup spec was Town or Scum driven. So that's hitting a dead end. Also, ftr, KK is the only one currently on my wagon that was able to actually make a case as to why he thought my post could be flavor fishing. I will admit that I didn't think I'd need to tell someone NOT to tell me their alignment.

2. I try not to have too many balls in the air at once when I'm active in multiple games. The PGO claim needed immediate attention and I saw a suspicious post that required immediate attention as well. Nothing else has been all that noteworthy.

3. I learned that sometimes people need to stfu and let the subject of a question answer a question for themselves. I feel about as satisfied as a sex addict in a convent. He still never really addressed the meat of the question and I can no longer determine why he raised that setup spec when all he had to do was look at his own role. I have a null to soft scum read on him right now. The rest of his play has been uninspired but less derp. *shrug* I guess I don't know that I got anything out of it other than votes. Then again, the votes themselves can be telling as we get some flips.

[Yates]

Also, <3 Tammy. With you and PereV here I'm feeling all nostalgic. :p

[Yates]

wow wow wow hold on a minute here, I WAS NOT set up speculating. If anything I was warning that setup speculation in a mafia themed game is dangerous and you cant always determine roles based on how they may appear in their movie/game etc

No I get it. You weren't "setup speculating" in the same way I wasn't "role fishing." My concern was that by asserting that *this* game *could be* like another game you start getting into setup speculation yourself. The actual problem I had with your post was not the warning not to setup speculate but the logic that followed. Specifically, I was unsettled by the fact that you asserted that in *this* game - the one we are currently playing in - there is a likelihood that characters and alignments may not match up. Sure, we could wait for a couple of flips to be sure but you should be able to look at your own rule to determine the truth value of that statement. Obviously, this statement is false and future flips will bear this out.

Essentially, I wanted to know why you would introduce false setup speculation - as you did when you said:

I have seen theme games were main characters were bad guys in mafia games. Games were bad guys in shows were town in games.

This statement is pretty much the only thing I took exception to and it still bothers me. I have seen games where the vote style changes every day - big whoop. I have no reason to post that unless I think there's a good reason raise that as a possibility.

So let me rephrase my question; without revealing

anything

about your role, why would you state that you have been in games where "good guys" were scum and "bad guys" were Town? This is important because we have a full claim on the table in the person of Acosmist.

@All - please Please PLEASE let Jason answer that question for himself. He doesn't need coaching and should be able to answer that quite succinctly.

[Yates]

What's so hard about that to understand?

I get it. You are saying that setup spec is bad. We agree on this.

Your statement that character and role may not be married [Doctor Quinn Medicine Woman

might not

be a doctor] is also a legitimate point. We agree on this.

Here's where I think you are missing the crux of my question; You *also* suggested that your character and your character's

alignment

might not be the same [in the twice quoted sentence]. 1. Am I wrong on this or did I somehow misinterpret what you were saying? 2.

If not

, did you look at your role and see if your character's alignment matched before offering that up as a possibility?

Very simple and straight forward. I am not very smart. Let's assume I don't know anything and keep the responses to no more than a sentence each if possible. Thanks.

[Yates]

The twice quoted comment from you was in reference to past games I had played in and were using them as an example to back up my point.

Ok. That's what I was looking for. I wanted to know if it was in reference to this game [which is what it looked like] or just a general "stuff happens" statement. BUT, I didn't want to coach you into it. I feel better now.

[Yates]

Wait. What is this Zab wagon? He simply looks like someone not paying attention to the game to me. His ISO is all of 8 posts of -meh- What am I missing, here?

[Yates]

First, my OMGUS response:

His role/flavor fishing doesn't seem good, especially because I get the feel that he's experienced enough to know that that isn't a good thing to do.

Whuu? So I'm experienced enough to know a role/flavor fish isn't a good thing to do but did it as scum for...? Fun and profit? You should probably reread my interaction with Jason and rethink this logic.

Second, @Nero post 210 - I see where you are going. I just disagree with the level of scum you are attributing to each of those actions. I will admit, though, that his post 203 was wonky. Even the non-specificity of it, though, is in line with his statement:

And no, I didn't look at the vote count. I was just looking at the pressure in thread. That's what I meant by wagon.

So while he was technically wrong about there being a wagon, he isn't actually wrong about "people" applying pressure or talking that point to death. He just looks too lazy to actually include specific examples in his posts.

@Zabriel - do a better job of not being lazy if you are Town.

[Yates]

In the only game that I have experience with Yates he was a strong town read.

The fact that I'm not a strong Town read this game should tell you something, yes? Or is it just because you have a super strong Town read on me in this game which caused you to have lingering suspicions from a game that ended last spring? [Oh - I can have fun with this...]

Why haven't you questioned BC the way you did Jason?

I haven't had that "ah ha!" moment yet. Dude has 6 posts - only FOUR of which are content posts. I voted him based on his first content post and he hasn't said anything that would change my mind in the other 3. Which brings me to...

If Yates is scum, almost any response that jason gives(gave) will indicate something or other to yates. fucking, major scumpoints to Yates.

Well, that isn't true now is it? He satisfactorily answered my question. Do you know anything about Jason's alignment, role, or flavor? [Just for the uber paranoid - DO NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION - unless you are scum buddies - then cool.] If you do, it isn't because of anything I asked him.

In other news... To the Day vig!


Also, if I read that right, it looks like all votes have been set back to zero?

PE: Mod ninjaed

[Yates]

From what we've got out though, it looks like flavor is matching the works pretty well, since if I remember right Psycho Mantis is the guy that can read your mind and keep you from doing things. Roleblocker fits that well.

Yup. And this is why I made my fail "role/flavor fishing" attack on Jason. There are other reasons that Jason specifically would understand [which is why I think he never voted for me] but I can't get into that yet due to game rules.

I'm going 2/2 on reading Yates as town when he's scum, so I'm looking forward to him being nightkilled or something.

You, Tammy, and Pere should form a support group.

Shahrizai's #34 stood out as false-sounding to me.

Really? What didn't you like? I obviously agreed with it and voted based on that logic. BV's proposal of a PL discussion 30 seconds out of RVS looks really really bad to me. Then he just ignored the two votes he had collected within 2 posts of each other. I guess he thought benmage's defense of his slot in post 40 was defense enough? Then IAI jumps on the BV wagon and STILL nothing *until??* He deflects onto me in post 80.

And I actually forgot to redo this:

Vote: BloodCovenent

I just wish he and AV were more active so I could try to get a relational tell. It might be a bit of a stretch but the only vote between the second vote on BV and BV's post that ignores the pressure was AV voting for Jason. Maybe partner assisted deflection?

[Yates]

How do you know, why are you answering the question for him? covering for your scum buddy?

Can we please have more votes on this ^^^ guy - PLEASE? Every time he posts [thankfully very rarely] I want to punch my monitor.

[Yates]

And he's been posting much more since he's come under suspicion.

Guys, this is a null tell. I seem to see this "logic" in every game and it needs to stop. The fact of the matter is some people don't contribute - especially early game - unless there is something worth commenting on. Seeing people voting for you is worth commenting on regardless of alignment.

Just finished a flawless victory here where the last scum

lurked

under pressure - which is the

opposite

of what was just called scummy.

Sorry. I usually let people defend themselves but this is quickly becoming my #1 pet peeve BS "scum tell."

[Yates]

* His [Zabriel's] position on Acosmist's claim was a bizarre dance. "I'm actually not considering people who went after him suspicious, mostly because I feel this is one of those cases where scum are just willing to let town make the case and then get slammed for it later." (Post 121) to "I am not a fan of anybody on the Aco wagon." and "I'm pretty sure some of the pressure on him is scum looking to push a mislynch." (Post 187 - worth noting that there was no wagon on Acosmist, zabriel later retconned it to "pressure" being the same thing as wagon). Also worth noting that he never named a single poster that was scummy due to putting non-wagon pressure on Acosmist. He just ignored questions that he couldn't answer.

This, however, is a good point. Individually, I didn't see anything scummy about any of these posts. Presented like this? I'm feeling less Town on Zab now.

[Yates]

I'm also annoyed by the fact he is replacing out because I tend to give people that replace in leeway, and I would have liked to see IaI's responses to the pressure that was building against him.

I tend to do the same. That said, it's worth looking at IaI's past games to see if he replaces out as cornered or pressured scum.

[Yates]

Meh - he has almost 1800 posts so I won't be doing the above. This is his only active game currently so... yeah.

[Yates]

3) AP's

towntelling

boot licking Yates

like a boss.

FTFY

@AP - You must chill. Your tongue is chapping my @ss. What makes you so 1000% sure I am Town? This is really bad because the only people that should know my alignment are mod and myself AND scum. I'm not going to highlight all of your posts but this feels like you are trying to communicate with your buddies and I have the uncomfortable feeling I am going to wake up dead.

Unvote

Vote: AP

BC is still scum but AP needs to go first.

[Yates]

And, yes, Yates: my grand plan is to bootlick you and Snifit for some excellent reason and not the people actually voting for me.

I *am* voting you. Now.

While everything you said in 497 is true, none of that is the guarantee I am Town you are pretending it to be. I was an uncounter-claimed Egon Spengler in Ghostbusters mafia with accurate investigation results and I *still* wasn't this conf-Town like this. I appreciate the Town read but come on... That was nuts. You sound like someone who absolutely knows my alignment and are either trying to communicate a NK with your partners or set up a defense for yourself for when/if I get mislynched later. Like a wet sloppy kiss from crazy Aunt Janey, it makes me uncomfortable.

Yates is weird right now

"Right now??" I feel like I was just someone's boyfriend in prison and I didn't like it. I'm sure you have lots of experience dealing with those types of relationships. Me? Not so much.

[Yates]

@Acosmist - Serious question; why aren't you contributing to this game? You are supposed to be our conf-Town and leading the charge here. I am not kidding when I say that you did a better job of scum hunting AS SCUM in Metroid than you are doing right now. I am sorely disappointed in your play.

[Yates]

I don't care about OMGUS at all. Its not a scumtell. I've seen town OMGUS harder than scum actually.

This is actually true. I was guilty of it Day 1 of this game (The Mystery at Lake Village) and The Director did it for the next two days in a row.

convenient that you showed up at 3.17am (est) to respond to this wagon. shows that you're paying attention, and yet not scum hunting.

In another game I'm in someone called the the "Beetlejuice tell."

It *can* be indicative of scum but this is really similar to post 336:

Spoiler:

And he's been posting much more since he's come under suspicion.

Guys, this is a null tell. I seem to see this "logic" in every game and it needs to stop. The fact of the matter is some people don't contribute - especially early game - unless there is something worth commenting on. Seeing people voting for you is worth commenting on regardless of alignment.

Just finished a flawless victory here where the last scum

lurked

under pressure - which is the

opposite

of what was just called scummy.

[Yates]

IDK, I kinda think AV scum would be less likely tell his buddy to sheep him but idk.

Wait. What? Are you saying scum have day talk?

[Yates]

Why not look up pappums' modded games? Yates and I could tell you about it.

Yes. He gave us fake claims in Metroid.

ask me stuff too

Sup? Thoughts on AP vs BC? I'm going back to thinking BC needs rope first but that deal with AP was uncomfortable. I did that to Thor once as scum to get him lynched when/if I got lynched and it totally worked so maybe I'm being hypersensitive?

[Yates]

scum can usually talk pre-game even if they don't have day talk.

Couple of things:

1. That question was for Nero. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
2. I received my role at 20:37 on the 14th and the game started 21:06 on the 15th. Do you think scum got together and came up with a complex plan of contingencies in case there was a day vig in roughly 24 hours?

PE:
@zab - oh. I missed that. Still. Point 1.

[Yates]

Yates, what about me is "uncomfortable"? My read on you? What is your current thought on jason?

I buddied the CRAP out of Thor in DBZ mafia (as benmage, PereV and Acosmist can attest) and got him lynched when I flipped mafia GF. Your posts felt like you were trying to tie my fate to yours. If I got lynched on the fishing fail logic - "I told you guys he was obv Town!" - if you get lynched and flip scum I get the shaft-ola. Screw that noise. It's scummy and I don't like it.

I have no problem with your read on me. It's accurate. I'm just uncomfortable with the level of certainty you are ascribing to it. It feels like destiny-tying and I want no part in it.

I'm back to null on jason. He isn't doing a ton of scum hunting but he isn't making posts that require deeper review. He's just... there. I want to know what happened to PereV, tbh.

@PereV - you need to post more.

[Yates]

No comment on jason, really? IIRC you were very interested in him earlier.

Yeah. Like

PAGE 1

earlier. I may or may not have misinterpreted something he said. His explanation was good enough to move my finger off the trigger but my sites are still center mass, if you know what I mean. I am interested in his answer to my latest question, though.

PE: the Cyber wagon looks weak. I'd rather be on you or BC.

[Yates]

yeah what would whiteknighting me do

Who's "whiteknighting" you? You wanted someone to ask you questions - you got questions. So... like... answer?

[Yates]

I concur with Nero. Amrun lurk is a bigggg scumtell. I'd be willing to string that slot up.

Just for lurking??

[Yates]

And how the fuck does Zab defending Acosmist even remotely indicate Acos's alignment on a Zab scum flip.

Sorry. I'm not following the thread of logic here. Are you saying AP is whiteknighting you or that Zab is?

[Yates]

I've just had a very public and gruesome death in the family and it's really, seriously fucked me up and I'm limping along in all of my games - each and every one. I'm barely even posting on recreational threads. I forgot I signed up for this game (it was a mistake, but I wanted it to get played), but I'm working on it.

Amrun, and I'm saying this with all due respect, you should probably replace out. There are more important things in your life than an internet logic puzzle game. You need to focus on that and take care of business.

Conversely, there is literally NOTHING more important in Nero's life than mafiascum and you are ruining his experience. No friends. No job. No pets. Just a dark room under the basement stairs where he is fed nothing but generic Mountain Dew and Twinkies. Stop being so selfish.

[Yates]

Is it just me or is this game getting more and more annoying to read every day?

Zab talked himself back into the leaning scum pile with that Jester nonsense.

[Yates]

Zab talked himself back into the leaning scum pile with that Jester nonsense.

but it was Melmond that suggested jester. The hell is wrong with you Yates?

My bad. I was over-tired and must have put that note down in the wrong place.

I'm tossing Yates back into my null pile. This is like the third or 4th time his made false and derpy statements like this.

What were the other two or three?

Accidentally attributing a quote to the wrong person is far less scummy than making stuff up, wouldn't you agree? <_<

[Yates]

Hey guys, i'm about to have a fucking hurricane rip though my city

Same. Anyone in the North East US could be affected by "Frankenstorm" TM.

[Yates]

I'd prefer to lynch ap over melmond.

Same. Though it's a coin flip at this point. While AP has done nothing to shake my suspicion of him, Melmond has been miserable. Acosmist has been weird. Zab has been scummy.

*Yates throws his hands up*

At this point I'll probably sheep the largest wagon in order to avoid a no lynch.

[Yates]

and I'm not really liking the "shut up or I could put you in the naughty corner" tone either.

You need to finish reading the game before commenting on post 800+ stuff...

[Yates]

Lets policy lynch this fool.

I can't do it alone!

Seriously, if the AP wagon isn't happening I'm going to have to change my vote before losing power.

[Yates]

Hey

Acosmist

Yates, how about some, you know, content? It would be super duper to know who else you think is scum at all.

Nah. I like to keep that stuff super secret.

[Yates]

Come on over and vote rapidcanyon. He's scum.

But all the cool kids are on Melmond. On the other hand, I promised I wouldn't sheep Benmage. Decisions... decisions...

The fact that Melmond and AP are avoiding each other makes me think they could both be scum. To that end, I'd be willing to vote Melmond if the wagon hits 8 before Frankenstorm knocks out my internet.

[Yates]

Yates - don't honk of it as Sheeping benmage, think of it as Sheeping me :p

I think I've just convinced myself to change my read to null-leaning town on ap.

Fine.

*huge sigh*

Unvote
Vote: Melmond

In RL news, my understanding is that the worst of the hurricane is over and we made out alright here. NYC, on the other hand, is under water anywhere less than 12 feet above sea level. Yikes.

[Yates]

By my count Melmond is at L-2.

Melmond.

Sup?

[Yates]

Melmond is town. I'll not vote him, and suspect everyone on his wagon.

So... half the player base?

Why is Melmond Town?

Admittedly, I'd be happier with an AP lynch but that wagon was very lonely and we are down to the last couple of days. If Melmond comes in and makes a convincing claim, would you be willing to back my pony? Because I don't see an RC lynch happening in the last couple days.

[Yates]

Vote: mykonian

What's with the quick hammer?

[Yates]

quickhammer?

I obviously don't have a problem with the vote itself since it was the same wagon I was on. I also appreciate that it was a long day and ultimately that was the vote that was going to go through. However, RC put Mel at L-1 at noon. You hammered 80 minutes later without giving Mel a chance for a last post. I just want to know your thinking there.

[Yates]

His reaction to my townread on him seemed a little forced and apparently was not a reaction test like I originally thought it was.

Who says it

wasn't

a reaction test? Also, lol at "lurky." You can accuse a lot of people in this game of being "lurky," I however am not one of them.

[Yates]

Did you honestly expect Melmond to get back in here and post in a time frame?

Yes. Why wouldn't I?

P-pedit: Lol, don't give me that BS. Was it or wasn't it. Pop quiz: If it was, then what did my response mean to you? Go!

To quote some 5 year old, "that's for me to know and you not to." Poignant words from someone that DID, in fact, wet their pants.

I have no power as I live on long island NY... so yeah bare with be the next few days, also limited car charge time for phone as I burrow.

Good luck, dude. I've got family in East Islip with sea water in their sun room. They are being told likely no power for another week.

[Yates]

No multiball aye?

I never thought we should consider that possibility until we saw evidence that suggested otherwise. Still - there is an outside shot it's an odd night/even night type of deal I suppose. Doesn't really change the way we scum hunt.

[Yates]

Yes, but it makes the zabriel case OBVIOUS BULLSHIT. Anyone talking about his 'slip' needs to die.

Oh. That's a good point. I just haven't been paying attention to that noise.

[Yates]

because he actually doesn't know.

Is this your subtle way of calling Mastin Town?

[Yates]

So scum would call me town all the time since they knew I was town. After returning from rumspringa, I've been getting more and more town calling me town...though I'm still incredibly cautious/parinoid.

This was EXACTLY my case on AP yesterday and why his buddying gave me paranoia. EXACTLY this.

As to this:

I'm not saying he shifted a non-serious vote into a serious vote.

I'm saying he's lying about it ever having been not serious.

That's an accurate statement and a good point. I was planning on quoting an earlier post but this sort of encapsulates the case. I can't understand why snifit is saying his vote wasn't serious when he plainly placed a serious vote. I'm not automagically calling snifit scum but something about this is not right. If I apply some confirmation bias to the situation it looks like caught scum trying to backpedal.

@snifit - what's the truth?

snif and AP in this thing together. Obvious now.

Possible. Then again Nero and Mastin look like a matching set as well. *shrug*

[Yates]

Yes, but it makes the zabriel case OBVIOUS BULLSHIT. Anyone talking about his 'slip' needs to die.

What ever happened to this angle? I liked where it was headed.

[Yates]

This SNIFIT LIED, KILL KILL KILL is awful

Are you serious right now? This "lynch all liars" policy for snifit is the same underlying principal as your "people are lying about multiball on the Zab wagon KILL KILL KILL" proposal. Which brings me to:

Why did you lie in post Post 311?

What is Kise lying about? See... this is why you can't just arbitrarily "lynch all liars" Lying is a pretty strong scum tell but - like anything else - isn't even 75% accurate. It's just a piece of the puzzle. So you need to tie a lie in to motivation in to a case.

Also, and I'm not really sure how to handle this, but I received a message last night. I had this role once before and was told the basic purpose of it was to confirm that role and that someone took that action, instead of killing I guess, that night. Anyway, I dont know if i sould have kept that to myself, but ill be able to verify the sender if and when its necessary

Wait - what are you saying? In English, por favor?

[Yates]

Thanks for the enormous effort.

[Yates]

There is someone who has a role where he can send a message to another player at night. That person sent the message to me. It did not come directly from the other player but from the mod.

Ok. Thanks. My initial read made me think you were suggesting there wasn't an NK last night BECAUSE someone sent you a message. Which obviously would mean you found scum. So that's why I wanted clarification.

[Yates]

What else needs to be said?

I don't know. How about... why? Obviously I have meta reasons for all of a sudden finding your turd play suspicious, but we can't get into that.

[Yates]

The whole backtracking malarkey smells of scum as well. Hence; vote.

Thanks. This is what I was looking for.

[Yates]

I would entertain a ThAd case if it weren't for the fact he is Lurky McLurkerson and has so little content. That is *my* entire case on ThAd.

[Yates]

Also I think I had a little bit of an epiphany that makes me happier with Mastin=town.

Sharing is caring. Just saying.

[Yates]

I would entertain a ThAd case if it weren't for the fact he is Lurky McLurkerson and has so little content. That is *my* entire case on ThAd.

I'll have you know,

sir

, that I am the 8th most active player in this game.

That may be true. However, you didn't make my top 10 list in terms of content. QQ

Now - for the ironic part of my post - I'm going to be V/LA all day tomorrow.

[Yates]

Vote: Kise

Why did you lie in post Post 311?

I got all hard and stuff but then...

I was one of the townies that lost to him years ago, the sting of his miller fakeclaim has never gone away.

The bolded part is the lie. We've played in three games together since Mafia 96 (miller claim). You've never, ever mentioned "the sting" before.[/quote]
...whu? Really? That's what you have for me? That's a misrep at BEST - not a lie.

Vote: Kublai Khan

Explain in your next post why you overstated your case on Kise because this is anti-Town bullshit and I'm in no mood for any more bullshit today.

[Yates]

And then just before the hammer he [PereV] states "Melmond is town. I'll not vote him, and suspect everyone on his wagon", which is really far too little far too late as melmond was then hammered within three posts of that.
Considering that he had melmond as a likely scumread earlier in the day it really looks to me like scum trying to get points for defending town, without actually trying to derail the lynch in any real way

This is a good point too. This is the ThAd I've been waiting for.

What's up with this, Pere?

[Yates]

I think someone asked who my suspects are. I forgot who did it. Currently they are among people as pidgey/mastin/zabriel/zoroaster/kise/nero/acosmist

Congratulations, you've narrowed it down to OVER ONE THIRD of the living player list.

What do you think about KK's BS play on Kise?

What do you think of ThAd's solid point about PereV?

I'm sure we can get you suspicious of 50% of the players given enough time.

[Yates]

Y'all thought I was bullshitting when I said Kub was up to something.

Why are you not voting him, then?

[Yates]

Yates

what do you think of myko's alignment/his slots exit post.

I'll answer your second question first since it leads in to my answer on your first.

First, I have to admit I had to ISO Shah because I forgot Myko replaced her and a LOT has happened since then. I think Shah had some valid points against you and BC, tbh. I didn't/don't understand what she was getting at with the IaI/AP slot. I don't like that slot [AP] either but I'm softening on it a bit. I just feel like everyone had her marked as scum for lurking. I never went down that path because I agreed with her early on about BC [literally her first post]. In retrospect, since she did replace out site wide [her last post on site was her request for replacement] I think that points to it not being a scum gambit so anyone holding on to notions of Shah being scum for LURKING can reconsider. That's the only "case" I remember for Shah-scum.

So, Myko was replacing in to a prob-Town slot for me. I liked that he replaced in with reads on everyone. Agree or disagree with his reads, he's making that info public and that is pro-Town. This was followed by a bunch of catch up posts. Then he did the quick hammer. The hammer was way fast in terms of game time. If it was a quick hammer on scum I think it wouldn't have stood out as much. His reason for quick hammering is because he "didn't want a claim" out of Mel? I don't know. This still bugs me but I guess isn't a huge knock considering ultimately he's right - Melmond was going to be the lynch yesterday. I'm less bullish on Myko-Town than I was Shah-Town but he isn't on my scum radar.

Did you ever respond to her 440? If you did, I can't find it.

[Yates]

Especially since Tammy and mastin2, two players whom I've notoriously beaten as scum, are saying that I read as town

In fairness, I can't give your "Tammy calls me Town so obviously I'm Town" argument much credence because I have also duped her with ease. Although, maybe I should because that would make me conf-Town as well, right? [<3 Tammy!]

You don't find it strange that Kise has yet to list a single town-read? Kinda feels like scum keeping their options open, doesn't it?

Meh. I don't have a ton of Town reads either. I think that's fairly common for

Town

wanting to keep their options open as well. It could be scummy, I suppose, but it is equally indicative of a Townie that simply doesn't trust anyone. Also, I have gotten into the habit of allowing players to defend themselves so I don't defend an incorrect Town read and get burned for it. As scum, I've used that tactic to tie a nearly unlynchable Townie to my destiny so I avoid it like the plague. To that effect, this isn't me defending Kise so much as challenging your logic on a case, which I think is a distinction worth making clear.

In all MY games with you [ThAd], I've never seen you defend a town read that blatantly. And I've seen you bus and buddy before as scum.

This is exactly what I mean, btw.

Kise may very well be scum, but not for the reasons you have outlined so far. The level of scumminess you are attributing to these actions is actually scummier to me than the points you made against Kise if I were to buy them.

Now I have to read the rest of this thread and look at the Tammy stuff ThAd just brought up.

[Yates]

Messenger is probably town

I agree that messenger is likely Town. So why would you want Tammy to out a Townie?

This does bring up some questions, though:
1. Why did Tammy get the message?
2. Is she linked to the messenger somehow?
3. Did the messenger choose her?
4. If the messenger chose her, why TAMMY?

These are rhetorical questions, btw. I see that with this player base I need to be clear about that. As I answer these questions for myself, I come up with Tammy being MORE likely to be Town, not less.

[Yates]

Ready to vote ThAd?

Actually, I'm coming around on this. His push on Tammy is looking more and more fabricated. I'm not liking KK's case on Kise but I'm liking ThAd's case on Tammy even less. Obviously there's some confirmation bias there in that I think Tammy is probably Town and ThAd pushing on prob-Town looks really bad.

This is another game where I have like one or two Town reads and pretty much anyone else can be scum.

I am willing to lynch from this pool [in no particular order]:
ThAd
KK
AP
BC

[Yates]

Yates, why does Tammy receiving a message make her more town?

Did you answer those questions I posed for yourself? To many of the answers point to Town scenarios vs Scum scenarios. I'm leaving it at that.

Also, ftr, I just realized Tammy is in another game with me currently and posting the same stuff. You can click on her name and see she is making posts about being sick in all her games so I'm inclined to think this isn't a gambit.

[Yates]

As much as I disagree with Admiral's case, I don't think hes scum.

You realize I'm not voting him because I disagree with his case, right? I disagree with him because the case appears to be fabricated.

It's not like he is in danger of being lynched before he has a chance to respond so you can call my vote a heavy FoS if you want.

[Yates]

Non-rhetorical question: Why is it bad to out the messenger?

If you out the messenger you out Town? Am I missing something here?

[Yates]

but how likely do you think it is that the message is from town then?

That's the only part I don't know. Where is the messenger getting their information from? I was in a game where cop results were messaged to a reporter. And another game where someone was a "ghost" and could send one message per night to a Townie but if they tried to message scum they would be "exorcised."

[Yates]

Explain why it's bad to out town.

Scum night target?

[Yates]

You'd cry over the loss of a town messenger?

Depends. Tammy hasn't said what the info is yet. If that's how our cops communicate without outing themselves? Yeah. I would QQ in my Cheerios.

[Yates]

Sounds like a mailman.

Ok. At worst this is like a weak neighbor, right? Would you [KK or Benmage] want a neighbor to out a neighbor?

[Yates]

there's NO reason not to out the message

This I can support.

[Yates]

No, it sounds nothing like a neighbor. It sounds like a mailman. It's a one-way message, though the moderator.

I get it. Look at your link:

If the communication aspect is utilized to its fullest, this role can be conditionally considered a fair bit weaker than Neighborizer.

[Yates]

Also, people've probably guessed, am a bit busy at the moment.

Cry me a river. I'm in three games currently [my typical max] and just replaced in to two more. I have a CRAP TON of reading ahead of me.

[Yates]

why join more games if you can't play the games your in effectively.

Do you feel like I'm not playing this game effectively?

[Yates]

that type of person that doesn't recognize their commitment to the game the mod and others playing

Fair enough. I think you were in another game with me where I went on a rant about how I would blacklist anyone that replaced out of my game only to pick up another.

I take pride in having never replaced out of a game and always playing to my win condition - even when my slot's outlook looks bleak. Conversely, I am notorious for replacing IN to games and saving slots.

But this is a conversation for end game. Will respond to more in a bit.

[Yates]

@Yates can you go into further detail why you didn't like ThAds case, primarily the two points I rehighlighted in I believe post 1198

Yup.

I'm kind of torn on the whole "look how obviously effing Town I am!" scum tell. I've done that as frustrated Town - but typically only after "proving it" in some way [uncountered claim, accurate result, caught scum, etc.]. So I guess I see your point on Tammy in the sense that she hasn't earned her "halo," as she puts it.

I'm realizing that I may have jumped the gun on calling ThAd "scum," but let's call it gut for now. Well, maybe more than "gut" in that his meta doesn't seem to fit his typical Town play from the games I have been in with him. Obviously, the biggest issue I had was ripping on Tammy whom I believe is Town [and seemingly lonely in that opinion?]. I hadn't really considered a scum angle for the messenger so that weakens my read a lot.

I can't really argue a lot of those points as they require a lot of confirmation bias and I'm on the flip side of that bias [similar to why I disagree with KK]. So, he is ascribing scum points to Tammy asking for reads [because he thinks she is scum] whereas I see it as her not really following along and looking for the easy way out [which she did as Town in a game I killed her in as scum]. I agree that the "survivalistic" scum tell is crap, but that doesn't make Tammy scum. It just means she's flinging a case at the wall to see what sticks.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, she is posting "My mind is a bit hazy now" and "Oh noes - mah head is foggy!" in other games as well. So I'm not buying it as a scum gambit.

I think the only thing ThAd might have on her is his last point where she is calling you out. If I read that assuming she is scum, that could sound like a GF type of role that's saying it's impossible to have a scum read on them. Then again, if she's Town she could have the same reaction, right?

Basically, I think the case on Tammy is that she's being lazy. *shrug* To me that's pretty null.

Anyway, my vote is still on KK. I'm not even super comfortable with that vote anymore. There are a lot of people in here randomly pinging scum bells but no one is really setting off that alarm. I feel like any minute someone is going to slip up and I'll spot that "ah ha!" post.

[Yates]

The only thing I can say is to look at my motivations, which have been town. I'm not saying that I'm TownTownTown.

These two sentences are mutually exclusive. You can't say, "look at how all of my motivations are Town!" in one breath then say "I'm not calling myself Town" in another.

[Yates]

Holy crap you guys went nuts last night!

Its so fucking simple. If Tammy thought I was lying she would have shot me.

Maybe. However, she did appear to be looking for reasons you might have an incorrect read on her right out of the gate - BEFORE you claimed. It's a little weird that she "knew" you visited her, I'll give you that.

Here's the thing, though - now we know her kill flavor [blown apart]. If we see anyone else "blown apart" we lynch on site.

What is the down side to leaving her alive to draw the NK away from Cop claim? Scum has to know the Cop is going to be protected over Vig, right? She's the obvious NK choice regardless of if you believe she's a Day Vig OR SK. If she survives the night by some "miracle," I like the idea of making her shoot the PGO [unless Cop gets a guilty tonight]. If I'm not mistaken, PGO is only locked and loaded at night, right? So, she either kills a guilty or kills a role that needs to die thus she saves us a lynch later. That's a huge win for Town.

Also, I've never played a game with a Day SK. Is that even a thing? I'm inclined to believe Tammy's claim. I can't figure out why Ben would fakeclaim Cop as scum so I'm inclined to believe this claim as well. I have no explanation for the fake guilty outside of framer or sanity.

[Yates]

So as long as her shots continue to be pro-town, I'm going to advocate us keeping her around.

I agree with this. I still can't wrap my head around Tammy being scum aligned. I'll put it to you this way; if I was a day vig and Ben claimed cop and claimed to have a guilty on me, I probably *still* wouldn't shoot Ben either. Day/Night multiball is pretty much the only way she can be scum imo. I'm still not buying the day sk stuff. Another way of looking at it is that if she's SK or other team 1 scum, wouldn't team 2 scum want to kill her regardless? So even if you are 100% convinced she is scum, why not force night scum to take care of her tonight knowing full well Town will be controlling her kills?

If she shoots from the hip tomorrow, I'll eat my slice of humble pie and join the lynch. I just don't see how this can be bad for Town - and I'm someone who STRONGLY believes in killing all anti-Town roles as they emerge.

[Yates]

AS IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, a Tammy wagon SCREAMS of being scumdriven, because of the above--the scum want her out of the game. If they can do so via lynch, we're doing the work of the scum for them.

I should have kept reading the post but this as well. /parrot.

[Yates]

Feck, missed that. Lazy reading on my part.

No she didn't. She claimed Day Vig. Then she went ahead and, you know, Day Viged ThAd who was playing scummy. I'm only sorry I wasn't online last night to give her the idea to redirect her shot to Acosmist or *maybe* the BC slot [though I'm not typically a huge proponent of killing an empty slot regardless of scum read].

[Yates]

You lynch the person with the guilty you fucking scrubs.

I don't trust your guilty? If you require baseless speculation; you could have sanity issues, scum could have a switcher, Town could have a switcher, scum could have targeted you with a role that corrupts results... *shrug*

I look at tit this way; she has fired twice. One shot she killed scum. The second shot she killed a scummy player. 99.9% of the time I would agree with you, Ben, but in this specific case I feel like we *do* have a pet SK *or* [and this is my opinion] she is telling the truth and is actually a Day Vig. Why are you in such a hurry to lynch her when this is very likely to resolve itself tonight? If it doesn't resolve itself tonight, I'll be more inclined to believe you and we can revisit this tomorrow. For now, I am "foolishly" clinging to my Town read on Tammy and think she has done a more than adequate job of proving herself Town aligned.

[Yates]

What happens tomorrow when she rolls in with a fuckit mentality and shoots idno ... me the cop.

Ok. This is the first convincing argument you have made. I can only counter by asking you this; why didn't she shoot you if she knew she was going to be lynched anyway? THIS is why I believe her claim. She *could* have killed you but she didn't.

As to this:

Blocked nk equals I can be protected tonight.

Don't be too cavalier. Our Doc could be limited shot.

[Yates]

Yates

your

a fuckibg idiot.

Irony?

PereV can confirm that my default position on SK's is to lynch on site. I'm telling you that I think there was something wrong with your investigation or that your investigation result was misleading somehow. Can you confirm that your result determines alignment? Or is it something more vague like "this person can kill people?" As you know, there are games where the doctor can be mistaken for the SK because the doctor has a knife.

[Yates]

Where is this "Tammy is innocent" stuff even remotely coming from?

Read a few posts up. I think Mastin is thinking along the same lines as well.

Best option for town THAT ELIMINATES FUTURE RISK... is lynching Tammy now.... great you lynch her after she shoots me.... too fucking late than.

You still never answered my question. Why didn't scum/SK Tammy shoot you instead of ThAd?

Listen, dude, I think Town's mission in life right now is to keep you safe. I think scum know this. I think scum HAVE to target Tammy tonight. Why don't we compromise and lynch BC? We can lynch Tammy tomorrow after you have found a second[third?] scum. Deal? To me - this is a huge win and finishes the game before Day 5 at WORST.

[Yates]

Because SK Tammy shooting COP BEN gets power lynched so hard she doesn't know what hit her. Duh??

The ONLY play for SK Tammy is to kind of go along with trying to look like a Dayvig.

EXACTLY! This is what I've been saying. We either have a day vig OR we have an SK that is EFFECTIVELY a day vig. She can't kill tonight since she already shot right? That means we get a Ben result tomorrow regardless. If she survives the night [SK's are typically BP right?], we direct her shot tomorrow and determine her fate based on the efficacy of her shot.

So, in practice:
We net a SECOND night without a Townie killed
We net a SECOND night of Cop results
We net a day kill of a potential scum read

How do we lose? Tammy, who didn't kill Ben today decides to kill Ben tomorrow only to get instalynched?

[Yates]

Oh I forgot:

BONUS: if Ben gets an innocent read tonight, Tammy takes care of Acos without us wasting a lynch.

This HAS to be the play.

[Yates]

Your powers are weak, old man. They are only active at night.

[Yates]

Ah right dayKILL(see the mods note) not DAYVIG that Tammy pretended to do reset my vote on her.

Easily verifiable:

@Mod - Would a Day Vig victim be reported as a Day Kill?

[Yates]

Your powers are weak, old man. They are only active at night.

What was the point of this lie?

Lie?

The Paranoid Gun Owner passively (and involuntarily) kills anyone who targets it during the Night.

The Paranoid Gun Owner passively (and involuntarily) kills anyone who targets it

during the Night.

[Yates]

Yates you still think she's a Day Vig?

I do. I agree with Mastin in that I think she has made good shots. She had a chance to shoot you and didn't. I'd like for the Mod to answer my question because you do bring up another good point [re: flavor] but I remain unconvinced.

yates u mafia?

Obviously. That's why I want to keep her alive. So she can shoot me and

you and

my partners.

[Yates]

@Tammy - If Ben ends up with an innocent result tomorrow, would you take the chance at shooting the PGO given that a PGO's powers *typically* only go off at night according to the wiki?

[Yates]

If hypothetically a dayvig existed in the game it would be called a daykill..
Same is hypothetically a daysk existed in the game it would be called a daykill...

You have two things right now making you think she is scum, right? You have the investigation result. Granted, that's a very strong indication of alignment. BUT, we know there are ways of receiving false results. The second point you just stated is that despite the fact she said "dayvig" in her post [would that even set off a kill for an SK?], the mod called it a "daykill." If he can verify that a dayvig would be expressed as a daykill that removes an argument.

In writing this, I am reminded that I have to check her claim again because she obviously didn't post her last kill in thread.

[Yates]

Tammy - please look at this:

Spoiler:

Your powers are weak, old man. They are only active at night.

What was the point of this lie?

Lie?

The Paranoid Gun Owner passively (and involuntarily) kills anyone who targets it during the Night.

The Paranoid Gun Owner passively (and involuntarily) kills anyone who targets it

during the Night.

Then answer this:

@Tammy - If Ben ends up with an innocent result tomorrow, would you take the chance at shooting the PGO given that a PGO's powers *typically* only go off at night according to the wiki?

[Yates]

Ben - I get it. I'm basically ignoring Acos. Let me ask YOU - do you think PGO would still affect a day kill given that the wiki says it's only a night action?

PE: You said you were BASICALLY A PGO. [back to ignoring Acos]

[Yates]

Meh. Says you. That means there's about a 30% chance you are being 100% honest. And that assumes I believe you are a PGO.

[Yates]

Fine. I concede. I don't have enough reason outside of gut to believe Tammy would shoot the way we want her to.

Vote: Tammy

[Yates]

Essentially this:

However she won't deign to test Acosmist's claim.

That was the tipping point for me.

[Yates]

I did. I don't have enough reason for that opinion, though.

[Yates]

I believe that's L-1:

snifit, mastin, kise, ben, KK, AP, Yates

[Yates]

Never mind - takes TEN to lynch.

[Yates]

Also, I have another confirmation for future purposes. I was neighborized last night as well.

Efff - I forgot about you receiving a message last night. AND you are saying you were neighborized?

UNVOTE TAMMY

@NC - Can you verify?

Pending verification, his posts seem to bear this out following her role claim:

Spoiler:

If we think it's scum, tammy should claim this.

lol @ fencesitting on a fishing pole.

I NEED SOLID SOFTCLAIMS ABOUT YOUR KILLS

I give you 2 mins

bolded is lame as shit.

Spoiler:

If Tammy flips town dayvig then Ben is probably a mafia rolecop.

I never breadcrumb. I think they are dumb. Please kill someone today Tammy. (not Ben)

Spoiler:

TAMMY SHOOTING BC DOESNT NEGATE THAT I HAVE A GUILTY ON HER.

That would mean she's an sk...day sk. Or you are lying...

Spoiler:

If Tammy has more shots she is not mafia.

Do not lynch until she has shot today and/or everyone has checked in.

If she flips wn dayvig lynch Ben and anyone that CC's her.

Spoiler:

Ben is right, Tammy should shoot. Though I'd like dead Snifnit.

I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe we have an SK that received a message, got neighborized, AND killed scum.

[Yates]

Why does people targeting her affect her alignment?

Alright - I was thinking a Neighborizer worked like a Masonizer. Still, I want NC to verify this claim and give his thoughts. He had plenty of time the other night to say "oh crap, Tammy is scum." Instead, he ALSO challenged Ben's result.

[Yates]

Not really. If NC neighborized Tammy, that makes NC Town, yes? So that's good info to have relationally later. There is madness to my logic.

[Yates]

I just said it doesn't in 1629. Outside of the fact that I don't associate neighborizing and message receiving with scum, I still have my gut and the fact Tammy has been targeting scum. She has also come around on the PGO test, which was what tipped the scales to make me vote her.

This lynch just doesn't feel right.

PE: What was the message you received, Tammy?

[Yates]

I'm commuting home. I expect to see the message you received waiting for me when I log in.

[Yates]

Give me at least game one day to prove I'm not a waste.

No dice. You don't get a full game day when this many people think you are scum. Just read your role pm, your slot's ISO, and the last day. That's all you should need.

[Yates]

In unsubstantiated news; I head from a Nero hydra in another game that he is having computer problems so we may be waiting a bit for confirmation.

[Yates]

Are you reading faster now? Good. Thanks.

[Yates]

From what i remember, some people have impressed concern about his play, but nothing like "omg omg lynch him naw"

I can go back and post links if needed but suffice it to say BC is a top 3 scum read for a large enough subset of the player population that it is noteworthy.

[Yates]

So who are these "noteworthy" players that are suspicious of BC

I didn't say the players were noteworthy, I said the number of players finding BC scummy was noteworthy.

The D1 vote does not demonstrate how unscummy we thought BC was - it demonstrates how scummy Melmond was. I moved from BC to Melmond, for example.

Also, people weren't voting BC Day 2 because he wasn't here. Then Tammy blew up the thread.

[Yates]

You're right. I forgot I moved my vote from BC to AP for uncomfortable buddying. In the 100 or so posts since then, AP has proven that he is actively scum hunting and significantly less scummy than that first flurry of posts suggested.

"why is BC suspicious?"

From memory? Very first post was a request to PL. You can read the rest of the ISO for yourself and tell me why your slot WOULDN'T be scummy after that. Unlike AP, BC never did anything to make me consider changing my mind outside of simply not posting anymore.

[Yates]

So, NC, since you neighborized Tammy - what do YOU think of her alignment? Is she a day vig? Is she scum? Is she 3rd party? What?

[Yates]

I saw it but it was muddled in with other stuff so I wanted your stance to be clear.

Also, based on this response, I'm assuming you are against a "Pet Tammy," so to speak?

[Yates]

This reads to me like someone who knows the set up and is playing like they don't.

So you are confirming multiball?

[Yates]

We need Tammy acknoledging she will follow the town decisions.

I feel like she has. But feel free to ask her to make a stand alone post that says as much.

I can support this:

Vote: Acosmist

Vote: Acosmist

[Yates]

I would rather see Pidgey, Zab or Kise hung today.

You can try a case but I don't think you have enough time. We can work this out tomorrow with more information and the ability to direct our Day Vig/pet SK.

We know we have to deal with the PGO eventually. Our claimed PGO has not been a strong Town player. We don't want a no lynch. I think the claimed PGO lynch is the better play.

[Yates]

How did I go from wanting to potentially lynch KK to wanting to give him a hug?

I understand your argument that the mafia will likely influence the SK kill-choice. But remember that we essentially get double-lynch days. Instead of Lynch/NK/Lynch/NK/etc, we get Lynch/Lynch/NK/Lynch/Lynch/NK/etc. That scenario is not in scum's benefit. Scum will push to lynch Tammy so they can target someone else.

So. Much. This.

And this:

1) Yes, Tammy will say whatever to survive. However she will also do whatever to survive. She's outed, but as SK all she has to do is survive. She will gladly kill and has no target preference. There is no logical reason why she won't play ball, bide her time, and hope an opportunity opens up somehow.
2) DayKill choice will be done the same way as lynches. Majority.
3) Scum can influence the kill, but no more then they can influence a normal lynch. Town gets to double lynch.
4) Only flaw is that she won't target Acosmist, but he's been scummy as fuck, so today is as good as any to remove him from the equation.
5) Of the known roles, Scum have to choose between killing the Cop (who will likely be protected), a known SK, other lesser town roles (Hi, Nero Cain), or an unknown.

And to a certain extent, this:

Everyone is just derping and vomiting accusations into the thread because people are/aren't voting the way they want.

People need to divorce themselves from emotion for a second and talk strategy.

Now ask yourself, would you rather have TWO [effectively] Town directed lynches prior to night or just one? OBVIOUSLY we lynch Tammy if she goes rogue. She has got to know this. Ben, if Tammy is SK [and not DV] she would be playing against her win condition if she DIDN'T shoot as we ask. Again, even if you think she is an SK she has to follow Town just to maintain the illusion that she's actually the Town DV as she claimed. That is the ONLY play that will get her to LYLO [in theory], right?

I agree with the point that lynching her will answer some questions - but ONLY if she flips SK or scum. What does it answer if she flips DV? Do we lynch Ben?

To me, the best strategy is to keep her alive. I will vote her in the 11th hour to prevent a no lynch [because, ultimately, that would be the worst case scenario for Town] but I just don't think this is the best play. Can someone please give me a LOGICAL argument as to how killing Tammy would be a BETTER strategy?

[Yates]

The extra daykill really isn't needed. You guys need more confidence.

That may or may not be true. My question is simply; wouldn't you rather HAVE that extra day kill?

Assuming a 3 person scum team w/ an SK, look at it like this:
D2 - we kill Tammy [she flips whatever]
N2 - Scum kill Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [lynch scum]
N3 - Scum kills Town
Best case: down 2 Town, 1 scum, 1 unknown

vs.
D2 - we kill Acosmist [he flips whatever - and we deal with the PGO claim]
N2 - Scum kill NC Town
D3 - Hooray! Ben lived and got a guilty! [Tammy kills scum]
D3 - Hooray! Another Town role saw who killed NC [lynch scum]
N3 - Profit?
Best case: down 1 Town, 2 scum, 1 unknown, and take care of the Tammy "problem" Day 4

[Yates]

Sorry - in 1855 I was supposed to include that NC is a PR [playing off KK's hypothetical] so we are also down a PR.

[Yates]

Seriously Yates, the actual fuck are you talking about.

Am I not being clear? We obtain a numerically superior advantage by keeping a DV/SK alive. Again, Ben is trying to suggest that the SK killing for the Town is playing against her win condition. I contend that the exact OPPOSITE is the case. If Tammy is an SK, she *has* to kill everyone. That's how she wins, right? So what does it matter to her who she is killing? Now that we know her kill falvor, it is in her best interests to kill whomever we direct her to kill because that buys her another day of life. We know this. She knows this. Scum knows this. Therefore, killing Tammy needs to be a SCUM priority, not a TOWN priority.

we can't agree to lynch Tammy. how can we agree on who gets shot?

Obviously we will need to come to SOME kind of consensus or we won't lynch either, right? I'm sure we will figure this out. Plus, you are forgetting that we WILL have more information tomorrow because there WILL be flips.

I wouldn't mind taking things one lynch at a time but the way the day phases are being dragged out.... if I wasn't patient, I'd be on full lurk mode.

I'm ok with slowing it down a bit for one day to talk strategy. We are in a really unique position here and it would be a shame to ignore our options because people are unable to have civil discourse.

[Yates]

@Yates 1849: I argue she did go rogueish.

Well, to be fair, she was put in a position where she had to shoot or die. She wasn't given 1/2 a day phase to have Town direct her shot. So, to my estimation, she took a good shot [that COULD have been directed at Ben] but it hit Town. Thus, she was able to at least verify that she CAN kill during the day and that she IS willing to play ball.

Also, here's a quote for those of you who don't remember Tammy agreeing to allow Town to direct her shot:

I never said I wouldn't deign to test it. I am actually considering it regardless; it's just a silly question to ask me. If I'm the dayvig - yes, of course I'd do anything to help town because I win with town regardless. If I'm the SK - yes, of course I'd do it.

Either way, I have to say yes.

This Tammy smokescreen issue with play out everyday she lives.

I don't agree with this. It's an issue today because it just came up and we need to come to a consensus on how to deal with it. If we can get resolution on it today, we can carry on without this as a distraction. Would this be more agreeable to those of you opposed to a Tammy lynch if we were to come up with a situation where Tammy *IS* the lynch? Obviously, we lynch her if she goes rogue so that's one scenario. The other would be if we had X number of Town deaths with no scum deaths or something like that? Something that would motivate her to keep shooting scum, essentially.

One says today... One says later. But all agree she must die.

And I think we are in agreement on this regarding the PGO claim as well, right? Which is why I think that is a reasonable substitute lynch for today. When we have more info tomorrow and we have a plan in place, we have half a day to determine a Day Kill - see the flip - then adjust accordingly.

For anyone spreading the mutifaction BS and that I'm part of some team. Take a deep breath and ask yourselves why benmage is still alive? Think about it.

This is a good point. If we have multiscum, Tammy would have shot Ben anyway. Scum for a cop? Easy swap.

[Yates]

In that game we all believed Zedenek Was the SK..... so we delayed killing him to hunt for scum. But he turned out to be part of a 2 man scum team.

No reason not to kill Tammy. Yeeeeeeesh.

Were you able to limit the damage done by team 2 in that game? Did you have a pet Zedenek shooting at scum team 1 for you?

I have never seen this so I actually want to know how that worked out.

[Yates]

She shot ThAd before anyone even brought up her being on a possible day mafia.

That's true BUT if she is multiball scum, wouldn't she know that? In which case, my argument stands - scum for a cop, easy swap.

[Yates]

Who is WC again?

BloodCovenant

WrathChild

[Yates]

It's the weekend. People aren't super active on weekends. I think MoI is V/LA until Monday. Quit the chicken little routine and give this game until tomorrow night or Tuesday morning. That will still leave us with time to change votes if need be.

[Yates]

Tammy - there was no point in bringing up the message if you weren't going to out it. You are also almost definitely going to get lynched today - even if just to prevent a no lynch. You may as well post the message since you already told us mod didn't tell you who it was from. It could be important to us later on down the road.

[Yates]

This makes me sad.

[Yates]

I think people will be less inclined to believe you and I don't think the way you are leaving things will have the intended effect.

[Yates]

I would out the message. If it isn't tied to a person it can't hurt them. I think that will do a number of things; one of which is to give that person the ability to much more effectively prove they were the one to send you that message if required.

[Yates]

:facepalm emoticon

You just aren't helping your case.

[Yates]

Still don't like Tammy-lynch and will not vote for it.

Would you rather have a no lynch than a Tammy lynch??

[Yates]

I still think having a town-directed day kill is going to benefit us.

I obviously agree with this. However, I have never been in a game where we could direct a daykill before.

Let me rephrase my question this way; do you trust Tammy enough to bring her to LYLO?

[Yates]

Return to Liten is just a personal example - ThAd was a claimed killing role that we thought might have been a SK. We didn't even think of killing him til well down the line (when only 1 or 2 scum was left) and happily let the scum with Town Cred help direct his kills to off scummy looking Townies.

So I'm looking at this game.

ThAd was a Town vig. Obviously, ThAd helped to off scum.

Day 1 voted to kill a scum Doctor Didn't get ... 5112]Day 4 voted to kill a scum RB.

But you are right, he shot Town both nights he used his power.

My question to you is; how different would that game have gone if ThAd was a DAY Vig? Knowing who "voted" for Tripod and seeing him flip Town, for example, would have given Town something to look at [akin to wagon analysis] so they could adjust their votes accordingly Day 3 - possibly lynching you or Hacker a day sooner. My opinion is that this acts like giving us a second Day phase without the scum kill at night. Yes, that effectively cuts our Day periods in half but is that to the Town's detriment? I think not.

[Yates]

Also, thank you for that. That was a pretty cool read.

[Yates]

Sorry - Fixed URL's.

Return to Liten is just a personal example - ThAd was a claimed killing role that we thought might have been a SK. We didn't even think of killing him til well down the line (when only 1 or 2 scum was left) and happily let the scum with Town Cred help direct his kills to off scummy looking Townies.

So I'm looking at this game.

ThAd was a Town vig. Obviously, ThAd helped to off scum.

Day 1 voted to kill a scum Doctor
Didn't get a chance to vote Day 2
Did not vote to lynch Town Day 3
Day 4 voted to kill a scum RB.

But you are right, he shot Town both nights he used his power.

My question to you is; how different would that game have gone if ThAd was a DAY Vig? Knowing who "voted" for Tripod and seeing him flip Town, for example, would have given Town something to look at [akin to wagon analysis] so they could adjust their votes accordingly Day 3 - possibly lynching you or Hacker a day sooner. My opinion is that this acts like giving us a second Day phase without the scum kill at night. Yes, that effectively cuts our Day periods in half but is that to the Town's detriment? I think not.

[Yates]

Right. This is effectively what we would have:

It turns this game into a Double Day setup.

[Yates]

Also him shooting Town during the Day could have also easily led to him being lynched as a Serial Killer. So if you want to play the "What if" game it cuts both ways.

That's true. Perhaps he would have been the lynch over Town-Twomz, though, thus making that an additional net loss of zero.

I don't know why you saying "Yates thinks it is so" is meaningful on that issue.

That is a statement to make my opinion clear and has nothing to do with how "meaningful" my argument is.

The point is; your argument is that Town benefits from extra days and vote analysis. My argument is that a Day vig affords us that opportunity with HALF the certain Town targets at night. Yes, scum will have *some* influence over the day kill. By comparison, scum has 100% autonomy over the night kill. Therefore, your reason for wanting to kill the Day Vig does not hold up under scrutiny.

[Yates]

Thanks Veterans and Active Duties

You're welcome.

Please explain how lynching the guilty read from a claimed cop is the worse strategy than anything.

Please read the posts outlining how this can lead to a "Double Day" type of game [ISO of KK can help].

This is where KK actually calls this scenario "Double Day:"

Spoiler:

That's the point. It doubles the amount of days lynches that town has and halves the number of night-kills that scum has. It turns this game into a Double Day setup.

This was my take on it [which is very similar]:

Spoiler:

The point is; your argument is that Town benefits from extra days and vote analysis. My argument is that a Day vig affords us that opportunity with HALF the certain Town targets at night. Yes, scum will have *some* influence over the day kill. By comparison, scum has 100% autonomy over the night kill. Therefore, your reason for wanting to kill the Day Vig does not hold up under scrutiny.

The short-short version is there are a group of us who believe keeping Tammy alive is the right move because:
1. There are a number of reasons Ben may have had a false positive and Tammy may actually be a Town Vig [I might be the only one thinking this, in fairness]
2. Even if you think Tammy is 2nd team scum [since she likely wouldn't vig her scum partner D1] keeping her alive is the right move because you just limited scum kills in order to keep up this facade.
3. Even if you think Tammy is an SK, she needs to play ball [shoot with Town consent] in order to stay alive which *IS* playing to her win condition.
4. Tammy has stated repeatedly that she WILL allow Town to direct her shot.
5. Since we get to direct her shot, we effectively get an extra lynch without a night phase each day [Double Day] which still allows for "wagon" analysis [who voted to shoot player x] midday followed by normal analysis the following morning.

The downside to Double Day, as Benmage pointed out, is that it also limits Town night actions [no cop results]. I hadn't really taken that into consideration as I was focusing on the Double Day portion.

[Yates]

Still waiting for a single person to actually show outcomes in non-Vanilla Double Day games are better for Town than the average non-Vanilla game. Imagine I am going to be waiting a long, long time and will be seeing more derp like this.

In fairness, a non-Vanilla Double Day game likely doesn't exist since Double Day is

STRONGLY

in Town's favor.

Even in the game you posted where ThAd was a Vig, he wasn't a Town controlled shot. That's why I keep saying I feel like we are in a unique position here.

Again, the point about not having Town night actions is valid and noted. Then again, in Double Day Town doesn't have a night action either. So, essentially, you kind of have the best of both worlds here. For the Vig shot and wagon analysis we don't have a Town night action for potential results, granted. The plus side to that, of course, is we also don't have a Town PR getting killed by a scum night action. So when we actually lynch, then we have both Town and Scum actions taking place as normal - hopefully with Town gaining the advantage of TWO wagon analyses to better inform their night action.

As to the concern about WHEN to kill her? How about three shots that hit Town? That's how long ThAd lasted in the game you referenced and he actually WAS a Town Vig. She has hit one already so she's down to two more strikes. And remember, we would be holding HER responsible for OUR collective decision. I would obviously listen to a logical reason why that number should be higher or lower but two seems fair in a game this size.

THOSE KEEPING TAMMY ALIVE: Who would you have her shoot tomorrow? Cast your votes now.

Most of us are and have placed our votes. That's why Pidgey is in a

foul

mood [<- see what I did there?]

If Tammy flips Alt-Scum then I would be looking right at one of Jason / Yates as partners.

Yeah. I've been defending her pretty hard core - which goes against my typical play - so I would expect as much.

[Yates]

Myk you cant seriously not say im being unuseful WTF.

There are too many negatives in this sentence. It is making my brain hurt. You realize that translates into; "Myk you can seriously say im being unuseful WTF." Is that what you meant to say?

Look at Tammy’s shot today. Was there “Town consensus” on shooting ThAd?

This has already been addressed. She was in a "shoot or die" position and didn't have time to get Town consensus.

[Yates]

Yates, your read on MoI would be much appreciated.

My read on MoI takes a bit to develop. I'd rather lynch him over Tammy, though. I still think the Acosmist lynch is the best play with so many disparate non-Tammy wagons. You guys should jump over here and deal with the "PGO."

[Yates]

How about we just get the PGO claim our of the way today?

Oy. Where were you when I was trying to find a crew for that ship?

It's lonely on the bridge of this ghost ship. Anyone not on the Tammy wagon needs to get on here in the next 12 hours or less.

[Yates]

you keep floating the “DoubleDay is Obv-Town oriented” with not a lick of evidence to support your OPINION. And I bolded that ala Mascum for a reason … it is just that. You’ve not provide a bit of actual support for that. You aren’t showing me that “Town wins DoubleDay games at a rate X% higher than the average on-site regular Mafia game”. You show me DoubleDay which has exactly two games listed (1 scum and 1 Town win) and DoubleDay Unlimited which has exactly three games listed (2 scum and 1 Town win). So those don’t support your opinion.

This is not Apples-toApples, though. The Double Day setup is designed with vanilla townies for a reason, yes? The introduction of Town cops and protective roles would make it nearly impossible for scum to win.

The only thing that has me rethinking the strategy at this point - which I just realized in researching this defense - is that in Double Day, Town has a 4:1 advantage [plus 1]. We are likely closer to 3:1.

PE: @KK - Yes, day ends in ~24 hours. We will want that last 12 hours for a handful of people to compromise if needed. I am already on record as stating I would rather vote Tammy than absorb a no lynch and the point I just made above has me feeling more comfortable about that. Obviously, best case is everyone off the Tammy wagon lynches Acosmist so we deal with the PGO plus have our DV tomorrow but I am unconvinced this is going to happen.

[Yates]

Vote: AngryPidgeon

Why AP?

I don't really know where to go from here. Yesterday and last night panned out as my worst case scenario.

[Yates]

Read on Mykonian?

*shrug*

I need to reread yesterday sans vig/sk drama. I don't think being right or wrong about Tammy flipping SK is an alignment tell nor do I think scum were all on or off of a certain wagon. If anything, with the division being the way it was, I would expect roughly half the team to be on and half to be off in order to avoid guilt by wagon analysis.

Is Acosmist still your favorite pony today?

Acosmist was never my

favorite

pony. I just thought dealing with the PGO was a better play late in the day than a no lynch or Tammy lynch.

Iso reading was so dreadful. So are you the godfather?

Are you trying to hint at something regarding my night actions/lack thereof or make jokes?

[Yates]

VOTE: zabriel

Really? That's your contribution? You haven't mentioned Zab since like post 730-something.

[Yates]

No, I'm not scum. At this point, I think that's pretty evident. Notice I said scum and not Godfather? That's what raised the flag...

[Yates]

You are very, very angry that the SK didn't kill me and herself, aren't you?

Don't take it so personally. It's just that I don't like you this game, that's all.

[Yates]

and before I forget,

vote MoI

OMGUS?

[Yates]

Acosmist - wtf is up with this?

I am a paranoid gun owner.

1. I'm not a PGO. I said that explicitly.

oh no, you just confirmed my PGO claim.

Why were you busting my balls for calling you a PGO - claiming you weren't

exactly

a PGO - then calling yourself a PGO again? Are we calling you a PGO or not because I don't want to waste time with more semantic arguments again.

Again, anyone not on Tammy's lynch when I called it - that'd be a fantastic pool to lynch from.

~56% of the player pool? Way to narrow it down.

Lynching a Serial Killer was part of your worst case scenario?

Was Tammy a Serial Killer?

Tammy was Fatman, Self-aligned Mad Bomber

But in the interests of avoiding a semantic argument yes, lynching a 3rd party killing role was part of my worst case scenario. There are lots of reasons for it. Read day 2 for all of those reasons. OR, shortcut to this:

We're in the exact same boat as we were yesterday. Only, now there's no cop, and now there's no second lynch. We're no closer to finding scum, because we have ZERO information today that we did not possess yesterday. We knew Tammy was a day-SK. We knew Benmage was a cop. We knew his result. So what, exactly, do we have today that wasn't there yesterday?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to direct a shot at scum right about now? You could make a case for shooting Myk and lynching Mastin all in one day and be all puffy chested and proud of yourself.

OR - scum might have been forced to kill Tammy last night instead of our cop and maybe we could have had a guilty waiting for us in the morning.

That's why lynching Tammy was a bad idea. If we lose this, my failing in this game will have been my inability to convince people that an Acosmist lynch was the right play late in the day yesterday. And that's something I'm going to have to work on for next time.

Getting paged. More later.

[Yates]

Fun fact: Tammy was scum.

Incorrect. Tammy was NOT scum. Tammy was 3rd party. There *IS* a difference. Scum wouldn't target themselves [barring multiball] whereas 3rd party HAS to target scum to win. Therefore, 3rd party has as much information as Town and is almost equally committed to finding scum - effectively making them more like Town than Scum. So your argument that Zab is scum because Tammy was "scum" is not only baseless but flat out wrong.

I'll just assume your super mature posted image on this topic is equally well thought out:

OK, then I won't respond to your semantic argument.

So you have no rational response for explaining why you said "I am PGO" "Don't call me PGO" "Thanks for verifying I am PGO?" That's cool. You understand why this isn't a semantic argument, right? And you understand that being squirrely about your claim like this makes you less likely to be Town, right?

You could always just, you know, conventionally scum-hunt. Like for example – do you think every single person on the Day 1 mislynch was Town?

Was there some portion of this post from early in the day that was unclear or confusing?

I don't think being right or wrong about Tammy flipping SK is an alignment tell nor do I think scum were all on or off of a certain wagon. If anything, with the division being the way it was, I would expect roughly half the team to be on and half to be off in order to avoid guilt by wagon analysis.

I'm also not seeing how Yates can avoid the DBZ logic of badplayYates = scumYates.

What exactly has been "bad play?" I understand you not being down for being the lynch target yesterday - self preservation and all. Outside of that, you haven't got a leg to stand on. My only "bad play" was not being able to rally enough support for an Acosmist lynch late in the day. And, to be frank, that is just as easily symptomatic of the activity level of certain people in this game coupled with replacements.

Maybe I'm just cranky today but all three of you are pissing me off and posting like you have never played this game before.

PE: Okay, I do agree that 1v1 is stupid and this thread needs to die.

[Yates]

And today, he's followed through, doing everything he can to avoid the 1V1.

Why?

Because he doesn't want to be lynched, which if he took the 1V1, he would, because I'm town and he's not.

Can you drop this, please? Not wanting to be lynched is a null tell. Why don't people understand this? This could be an argument if you KNEW MoI was scum, sure. But what if MoI is Town? Even if Town-MoI *THINKS* you are scum, he wouldn't know, right? So why would Town-MoI want to be on the hook for the next lynch simply for being wrong? That's anti-Town bs. Period.

If you want to lynch MoI, find a case built in actual logic and drop the 1v1 stuff.

[Yates]

As town,

especially as a VT

, sure, not being lynched is better than being lynched, but there's absolutely nothing which makes them unwilling to sacrifice themselves if they think they are contributing to a greater cause.

Which is exactly why you should drop it.

In other news - was there anything of value in the message you received? Are you able to post the message without putting anyone in danger?

[Yates]

And who gives a shit about Acosmist once saying that he isnt _technically_ an exact PGO. Do you honestly think that was a slip?

I'm not calling anything a "slip." What I am pointing out is an inconsistency in Acosmist's play/strategy. Sure, strategies can evolve over the course of a game. My concern is that Acosmist is supposed to be playing like "Captain Uber Town" [TM] but instead is pulling off gambits like the one I pointed out. It makes no sense and contributes to my unsettled opinion on his slot. I'm not trying to "catch him on a technicality" so much as point out that his play has been inconsistent, terrible, and AT BEST null Town [leaning scum]. Do an ISO on Acosmist with the inconsistency I pointed out in mind. It's much more than him flaking on his claim in an attempt to... what? I don't even know. Try to "discredit" [Mastin - all rights reserved] a legitimate point against him because it happened to serve his purpose at the time?

Also, for the record, you probably *SHOULD* go back and reread the context if you think he was simply saying he wasn't exactly technically a PGO. Because that's not what he did. He back peddled on his claim to pretend he had the ability to kill a Day Vig/Day SK - which is not something a PGO can do. Now that it serves his purposes to call himself a PGO again, all of a sudden he *IS* a PGO? Am I the only one that thinks this is more than "a technicality?"

[Yates]

Scum motivation for scum-Mastin to carry on in an attempt to lynch town-MoI when he can focus all his juice on an easier target and just NK MoI. Doctor is obvious non-existent or complete moron.

Why would he have killed MoI last night? Think about it. If scum-Mastin had a chance to kill Cop-Benmage there is no way he is picking MoI over Benmage. Save this argument for another day.

[Yates]

I needed a good night's sleep to figure out how to deal with this:

Spoiler:

I can't tell whether it is Stupid Town or Stupid Scum. It's stupid regardless because

Nero Cain is a proven Neighborizor

. Aka someone who targets people at Night and establishes a QT with them. So as long as Nero has a living body (or two) to speak with at Night

he can definately test Acosmist by targetting him and explicitly telling his QT members he is doing so

.

If he lives (and thus Neighborizores Acosmist) Acosmist is clearly lying.
If he dies then whoever is alive afterwards can convey this to the thread.

The only flaw to the plan, of course, is if he Neighborizes scum who choose not to expose the information. But based on Benmage's kill flavor I'm guessing each death source has its own unique flavor that isn't duplicated.

Not to mention we have an unclaimed Messager who could also test out this theory

(telling the person they message Night 3 that they intend to test Acosmist Night 4). And any other roles that might be able to test this.

So - are you stupid Town or stupid Scum who are not thinking things through?

So let me get this straight - you were

against

letting Tammy [who you were convinced was an anti-Town role] testing Acosmist's claim BUT you have no problems allowing two confirmed TOWN roles testing the claim?? Would you please explain to me how

ZAB

is the one being dumb in his game plan?

[Yates]

Alright, thanks for addressing this quickly because this has been bothering me.

1. Please link to where I said I objected to Tammy testing Acosmist. I’ll be waiting since I never did.

What's interesting is that you don't really address the Acosmist lynch directly AT ALL in your ISO. I suppose you could be correct and that I am making an assumption that you were against the Tammy-Acosmist test due to your vote and, frankly, by avoiding the subject entirely. I do disagree on the rest of that defense, and would ask you how you know Tammy wouldn't have tested Acosmist's claim [despite saying she would] but it isn't worth arguing about since Tammy is dead and the point

is

moot.

2. So how exactly are Nero and the Messenger confirmed Town roles again? I don’t recall seeing anything from Benmage saying he scanned Nero. You do understand that neither of those roles is close to being alignment confirming at all, right?

Are you taking the stance NEITHER of these roles are Town? I guess your response will inform my opinion on your point 3:

3. I at this stage would have no problem with EITHER of those roles testing Acosmist. Neither one is powerful at all in regards to finding scum on their own. Thus if you are someone who is in the “I think Acosmist is fake-claiming scum” I would think you would have little problem with having someone who inherently can’t find scum with their role directly (and who can be scum, natch) confirming Acosmist is a PGO.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Acosmist's play thus far?

[Yates]

So Yate, in regards to the bolded and the second quote – are you actually reading the thread?

No you are misinterpreting. I didn't say you were ignoring Acosmist, I said you ignored the discussion about the Acosmist lynch. Specifically, you never said anything about this post or this post or this post or really anything concerning the Acosmist train that went into motion on page 71.

So a Town Messenger flip would make me think Nero (dayplay aside) was very likely to be Scum and a Town Nero flip vice versa to our hidden messenger.

Exactly. While I don't 100% agree with you, I obviously know that they don't both HAVE TO BE Town [in the same way one being Town/Scum doesn't mean the other is the opposite]. Still, I am inclined to believe that AT LEAST one of them is Town. And in any scenario presented, the chance of Town being killed by testing a PGO claim would be infinitly higher than the ZERO percent chance Town would die if TAMMY had tested it since you were 100% convinced she was scum/SK. THAT was my point. Feel free to assign whatever odds you want to losing Town to testing the PGO claim, it's going to be a number higher than 0% - and that's what Tammy was offering - a 0% chance at losing Town by testing the PGO.

[Yates]

Also - I wrote this note earlier but haven't had a chance to post it and don't want to forget:

Jesus. I'm Johnny Sasaki.

Tammy was Fatman

I think it is safe to assume scum have fake claims if the 3rd party had a fake claim.

[Yates]

So I haven’t commented on events that happened prior to Page 79 where I replaced in

Please. 1855 and 2248 were both posted after you came in - and those are just "for instance" posts. The Acosmist train was brought up in discussion and referenced after you came in as well. So don't give me that nonsense.

This is why people get annoyed with you, MoI. Misplaced snark is not fun.

[Yates]

So his reason for saying that is false.

Really? You think this has nothing to do with the fact that people were questioning name claims earlier [Solid Snake, for example]?

[Yates]

Again - why do you specifically say things that aren't true?

Why are YOU saying things that aren't true? You replaced in at [quote="In post 1946.

Seriously you're right, I didn't remember which post you replaced in during. You WERE here for 2248, though, and you WERE here when these points were being brought back up. I will admit that it lessens the validity of my point from earlier as I thought you were here for the bulk of that discussion.

So I'm trying to work out exactly what huge conclusion you would be drawing from this conversation if Town.

This goes back to what I had perceived as an inconsistency in theory. If you were against keeping Tammy [who you had marked as scum] alive to test the PGO claim only to risk a potential Town to test it later I had a case to make.

Obviously, the case is withdrawn since I was mistaken about the timing surrounding certain events.

As to this assertion:

Yes, Acosmist is quite right that this is very, very forced.

I have already had to relink direct quotes to Tammy claiming she WOULD test the PGO and that she WOULD kill based on majority vote because people were arguing to the contrary even after she had posted she would. So I wanted to put the fake claim business to bed.

[Yates]

Lynch all liars.

Okay. You lied first so we'll lynch you first and go on from there. Deal?

[Yates]

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.
I thought you were going to hang me on the fact I said MoI was here for post 1855 when he didn't actually replace in until 1946. That's the only "lie" I told.

[Yates]

Sure, I'll

Vote: Acosmist

I was probably going to vote you anyway barring new information so why not.

[Yates]

Whatever, Acosmist.

All you had to do to prove you weren't backpedaling was answer post 2400. I'm pretty comfortable with this vote since you wouldn't and you couldn't.

[Yates]

Caught for the wrong reasons tell?

Apparently.

How is Zab scummier than Acosmist right now? Also, you realize he is hinting at a PR, right?

[Yates]

Withdraw that last sentence. I had him confused with Kise.

[Yates]

It's not that I didn't like it, I just wanted to know the rational behind it.

I'd have to go take another look at your Zab wall to comment. Off the top of my head I still have concerns about the BC/WC slot and the shah/mykonian slot.

[Yates]

It was put to bed the second Tammy flipped.

Was it?

Direct links to the posts you think proves 2451 ASAP.

Already done in post 2400. Which I already linked to in post 2507. Which further reinforces my point that I have to

keep

leading horses to water.

[Yates]

Was it?

Yup.

Okay, my bad. Oh wait:

Yates: a problem with that theory is that it did take Tammy a long-ass time to give us a name. I feel like if she's been given a guarantee it'd have come out earlier.

Not a single thing in that post shows Acosmist back-tracking

I disagree. In post 10 - which you claim to have read - his exact quote is:

I am a paranoid gun owner.

That is a fact and is not open to interpretation.
Then he later says:

I'm not a PGO. I said that explicitly.

Did he say he was a PGO or that he was NOT a PGO explicitly? You tell me.

This is why I said you need to look at the actual context. What caused Acosmist to change his mind? I will tell you what changed his mind, I said this:

if Ben gets an innocent read tonight, Tammy takes care of Acos without us wasting a lynch.

This HAS to be the play.

Read the next several posts and you will see what I mean. Acosmist tried scaring Tammy out of targeting him today [in that scenario] by saying she would kill herself. I pointed out that the PGO only defends against NIGHT actions. Then there is a long lul. THEN Acosmist accuses me of lying:

Your powers are weak, old man. They are only active at night.

So yeah I'm not playing along anymore.

What was the point of this lie?

Coincidence that Acosmist "thought" of this exactly ONE post after Benmage says this?

Mastin is a fucking retard if he thinks an SK will suicide.

Now that Tammy is dead and this plan isn't in play all of a sudden he's back to:

you just confirmed my PGO claim.

And even though I thought we were done talking about Tammy:

No, saying Tammy would actually shoot Acosmist is stupid since Tammy’s not a moron and getting herself shot in response to blowing him up is instan-loss.

You are wrong. First - Acosmist likely isn't PGO. Second - even if he were PGO I don't think his powers would have affected a day action. Third - proof that he likely isn't a PGO is right in his role claim when he hedges by saying:

my role does not make it clear whether you will die immediately.

In other words, he is saying he is a PGO. He is saying not to target him. Then he's saying if you do target him you "may" not feel his power's might wrath until later in the game as an excuse for you not dying right away. Is that how PGO's work?? I don't think so.

[Yates]

This also cut off the post where Tammy said she WOULD test it even after all this PGO talk. I already linked that for you earlier. You said that link was useless. Guess it isn't.

[Yates]

So then I take it this means you have an opinion on mastin and MoI.

I wasn't saying that. I was simply commenting on your scenario as-advertised:

scum-Mastin to carry on in an attempt to lynch town-MoI

But I do have a Town read on both - for completely oposite reasons. I'm finding Mastin's logic easy to follow and find myself nodding in agreement A LOT. Conversely, I hate the way MoI plays the game and almost never agree with him. BUT he is effective and also uses understandable logic. I may not agree with him on major points but that doesn't mean his views are necesarily coming from scum. I know some people find his methods to be scummy, but to me he's like the "bad cop" you see on TV shows. If I do something stupid or start going in a wrong direction he is MORE than happy to rub it in my face [as you will see]. Yeah, it sucks, but I know I miss stuff sometimes and it keeps me from chasing my own tail. I am almost never 100% convinced MoI is Town but this is about as Town as MoI gets.

My understanding is that Pgo isn't the name of his role but his powers are the same thing as Pgo.

I get it. I was operating under the premise that because he had the PGO's powers he likely had the same limitations. However, I concede I may have been a little derp because:

Because Bulletproof players generally are NOT protected against Daykills. Yet in Pappum’s game where you were Vegeta you were.

You're right. 1. I forgot that was Moded by Pappums and 2. I forgot I was even targeted. I had to go back to double-check that because I thought that would be something that I would remember. THIS was the shot on me:

Spoiler:

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

kerWHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

So yeah. I forgot about that. Would have been cool of Ben or Acosmist to bring that up at the time.

Yates, you should help us lynch Elscouta.

I just might. I've been eating a lot of humble pie lately so I may end up sheeping until I can actually focus on this game a

little

LOT better.

[Yates]

I am V/LA until likely Monday. Gobble Gobble!

[Yates]

Back. Should be caught up tonight.

[Yates]

They can exist. I personally find them useless roles to both be town, when town is up against a daykilling 3rd party on top of the mafia.

So I haven't had a lot of time for Mafia lately but I've been reading.

I'm okay with doing this:

VOTE: Elscouta

and seeing where it leads. I believe that is L-2.

[Yates]

Uh - I don't know why Kise was just quoted. That does not belong in the above post.

[Yates]

Partially terrible but mostly I think Fonz is scummy and I don't think I can get support on a Fonz lynch. Next best thing is a lynch Fonz opposes [plus Amrun is kind of scummy]. MoI has been pretty good - except maybe about you [MAYBE] - so I'm sheeping him until I can be less terrible. Feel free to sheep away.

[Yates]

Woah. I just did a game crossover. Ignore that last post. Proof I need to go to bed.

[Yates]

@Thor - don't sheep me unless you want to put Eloscouta at L-1. I feel like L-2 should be enough pressure to see if Eloscouta is scum or Town.

[Yates]

If you have questions or requests for info, please tell, but "pressure"? for what?

For that response.

Unvote: Elscouta

Can you link to two games where you were scum for me? Thanks in advance.

[Yates]

I have taken a few minutes to consider the various options and outcomes, and I can safely say this:

You won't get a claim by me.

What? How is that helpful?

@Yates

LET'S SPEED LYNCH HIM FOR LULZ!

Roger that.

@Elscouta

- this is intent to hammer. You have 5 1/2 hours from this post to claim or get hammered.

[Yates]

BTW - thank you for your scum meta. While I realize you think it showed me nothing because "the game is broken," instead it shows me that you quit as scum - like you are doing right now.

[Yates]

Will be back tonight to read/catchup.

Hurry up. I'm hammering in about two hours.

[Yates]

Yates, what about Elscoutas reply made you unvote him?

He didn't flinch. That also gave me an opportunity to ask for scum meta without looking like someone locked in on lynching him. TBH, I was starting to lean Town until this BS power play thing. I tend to find this chest thumping is more likely to come from scum than Town.

PE: Let me check the math myself. I'll put him at L-1 if he isn't already there.

[Yates]

You're right. KK put him at 7 and it's 9 to lynch.

Vote: Elscouta

L-1

[Yates]

I really did think it was 10 to lynch.

But yea, its not like it would not have happened anyway.

Seriously?

You're right. KK put him at 7 and it's 9 to lynch.

Vote: Elscouta

L-1

Elscouta - 8 (Cheery Dog, Acosmist, AngryPidgeon, MagnaofIllusion, Kise, Thor665, Kublai Khan, Yates)

With 16 alive

it takes 9 to lynch.