Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Glork]

Let's hope he's not scum this time. <.<

[Glork]

Heh... at this point, I'm just trying to decide which n00b didn't make *ME* the king.







Bastard. If I could kill you, I would.

[Glork]

Vote: PJ

DIE KING DIE! >=[

[Glork]

Wait, where's E_K?

[Glork]

Vote: Pablito

I don't think anyone has even made any remotely legitimate case against me, and Pablito is already announcing that he'll staunchly defend me to the end of time*?

Buddying up, much? Setting an absurd standard of play just because of precedent?

Clearly this man is scum and needs to die.








*By "end of time," of course, I mean "today." I cite Pooky's post as my reasons for using such an expression.

[Glork]

Vote: MBL

, too, for his open attempts to narrow the identity of the Kingmaker.

[Glork]

heh, deja vu.

And Glork, no one's brought up a direct case against you, but before you even said a word, there was a heavy unspoken case against and for you. Until I know your alignment for certain, I'll advocate for your presence in the game simply because the pressure on you will make you work hard.

Fuck that.




I'm not trying anymore, and you can't make me.

[Glork]

Dear Glork and PJ,

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

You expect me to answer this? You expect me to CONTRIBUTE, after Pablito tried to throw the Burden of Spectacular Play on me? (Oooh, I like that one... I might have to start using it more often in the future.)

What do you expect me to say? That the identity of the Kingmaker should be protected so as not to condemn specific people during the course of the game? That if we narrow or out the Kingmaker and enable the Scum to hit him, then they can hide behind those nightkill choices, and not give us the inherent information of an original nightkill choice?

Because I'm not saying any of that. Nope. No way, sir.










Hey, PJ. Laces out. I gots my eyeballs on you, buddy boy.

[Glork]

If they wanted to deny us information they could use a bloody dartboard.

BRILLIANT!!


Note to self: Buy a dartboard.

[Glork]

So next time you're going to say nothing, don't waste valuable pixel space, just say it and be proud damnit. No need to hide the fact that you're brave enough to stand up to King PJ and his attackdog Glork and not willing to knuckle under to their unreasonable demands.

How

dare

you insinuate that I am a subordinate of PJ. I've been cutting PJ's head off for six years. He's my play-toy, and he knows it.

[Glork]

And Pooky, I think you're missing the point of Twomz's posting genius. If you can spew a ton of words and not really make a point at all, you're doing GREAT. Wasting other people's time is both an art and a science. And it's one that must be constantly improved, lest our not-saying abilities fall.

"Nothing" gets the non-point across right away. If you just make a post that says, literally, "nothing," then you're not only saying nothing, you're not really saying anything at all. But if you can say

nothing

while appearing to say

something

, then you've really got it going on. People read your post, think that you're trying to say something, and then they realize that even though you've said something you've basically said nothing. Nothing at all.

[Glork]

Seriously, someone wake me up when this day ends. PJ's gonna make this think last, like a month or something.

[Glork]

Ha! Pressure votes against Glork are a joke.




Seriously. A joke!

[Glork]

All I'm hearing from PJ is "I was scum last game, but not this time."






Why isn't PJ dead yet?

[Glork]

OMGUS VOTE: CRASHTEXTDUMMIE

[Glork]

OMGUS Vote: MBL

[Glork]

Wake me up when September ends.

That's one of maybe two Green Day songs that I actually like.... [/random fact]

[Glork]

Dude, four people picked up on the fact that PJ is making a huuuuuge deal about how he was scum last time and "isn't" this time around. It's pretty obvious to me that PJ has been pushing the notion a bit too hard.

The fact of the matter is that it's a little ridiculous to be trying to predict scum behavior here based on last time around. If you want PJ's thoughts on last game, look here. Note how much of that

doesn't apply this time around

. Undobutedly, we will have some different Assassins. We have a different Kingmaker Successsion system, and we have NO POWER ROLES. (I would argue that a Hero is not a "power role.") I'm freely willing to concede that there may be some rough parallels. But the fact that just about every third post of PJ's is "I was scum last time, and I tried this, so I would expect everyone to do so" is either flawed or misleading.



And by "non-comment," Amelia obviously means "placeholder side-comment." It appears as though Amelia plans on elaborating in the near future. Give her the chance to do so.
(Sorry if I stepped on your toes, 'Slay... I just wanted to share my side of the story.)

[Glork]

I don't want you to become emotional. I want you to execute yourself. Or a Hero.

Seriously, though.... The reasons for my early comments are very simple, PJ. I want to see how you behave. I want to see how you react to someone who knows you probably better than anyone else playing the game. Rarely am I a "nice" player. I know that our personalities and our playstyles clash sometimes, but if I can get info out of somebody, I'm going to do it more often than not. (Also, the "If I could kill you, I would" comment was directed at the Kingmaker.) Players tend to show stronger tells when placed under pressure. I'm merely applying that kid of pressure to you, to see how you react.


But if you want a sugar-coated version of what I've been trying to say, here's the best you're going to get: I'm aware that if you are pro-town here, you'll be coming from a different perspective. While that perspective can be used to find scum, you wouldn't be helping your case by over-stating it right now, and making a big deal out of scum strategies. The fact that everyone (including the assassin killer dudes) can read your thoughts invalidates many of the scum-thought tactics you could have hoped to use. That's why I avoided the full-night-thoughts you posted, and posted your BMQ-directed thoughts. At any rate, I found myself questioning the wisdom of your actions. They don't seem to have much benefit for the town, since (as I mentioned before) different scumgroups under different setups (despite similar game mechanics) will inherently behave differently. On the other hand, they could have a much larger benefit for scumbags, if we get into a "scum should strategize as such" mindset and end up being tricked/mislead (either by scumbags or by ourselves/each other). That's what led me to suspect you. The fact that you reiterated your "changed perspective," in my mind, was a little over-the-top. It's like you wanted to drill into our heads that you know how scum should think, and that you should be directing the town. I don't like having one person push their influence on everyone else (unless

I'm

the one pushing

my

influence).



Regarding the "huuuuge" deal thing: Obviously, I was using hyperbole to get my point across. But the fact that three or four other players -- each of which I consider a competent, intelligent poster/player -- picked up on the

exact same thing

adds up. And it oftentimes means something. Definitely noteworthy, and definitely something worth looking into.

Finally.... No intrest in hunting scum this game? I suggest you look at my posts more closely, sir. Somewhat similarly to MoS, I don't plan on making extended, clear-cut cases against people I suspect. Read between the lines.



Anyway, I guess I'll

Unvote: CTD, MBL

. Votes on PJ and Pablito stand. Though I'd like you both to know that, outside of Mafia games, I wubs you both very very much. <3

[Glork]

Don't forget that phoebus hadn't posted until page 7. Is that scummy, a sign of townie non-interest, or a non-issue?

I think it's more a sign of "this game got off to a blazing start."


Two cents.

[Glork]

There seems to be some misinterpretation of my comments. As snide and biding as they appeared, the initial jokes were rather lighthearted. When the game was still in its early signup stages, MBL and I were talking on AIM, and we joked about how it'd be "ridiculous" if anyone other than me were to become king, given my performance in Kingmaker I (which, I should add, I do *NOT* expect to repeat -- that was a different game, under different circumstances, and I happened to be on top of my game at the time).

vote Glork

I think his play so far has been more in the interest of browbeating the kingmaker into kinging him for tommorrow than actually

catching scum

Wrong. I haven't

FOUND

scum (at least, not for sure), but I'm sure as hell looking for them. As far as "browbeating the kingmaker," I'll address that later. I'm going to consider this general misinterpretation as honest and legitimate, given my posting thus far. But it's a misinterpretation nonetheless.

Glork's a damn fine player, I have the upmost respect for him, I've read Kingmaker I as well as all of the postgame commentary and my conclusion after having read all that is that the person with the most insight into how the game works and has the highest chance of catching scum in KMII is PJ.

How do I come to this conclusion? I've played quite a few games with PJ, on the forums and on scumchat, he's HIGHLY analytic, actually keeps histories of people he plays with to spot differences, and most important of all, when he's given a position, he will think of a large number of strategies that could be beneficial or not for that position and the thing about people like PJ, the wheels just never stop turning.

If you look at what he's posted for Kingmaker I and the postgame commentary, you would undoubtedly be impressed with the amount of thinking that he's put into that position, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, those are just the ideas that he felt were good enough to share with us or that he had time to write down and post, I have no doubt that he has a plethora of other strategies he's thought of in the scum position that he either rejected or forgot about or just didn't have the time to post. When scum try that in this game, PJ's the guy who's probably got the best chance of picking up on that. How would I know this? Because from my experience of playing with PJ, that's the type of guy I think he is.

To be completely honest... I probably agree. As much fun as it would be to try to "continue the streak," I'm not the best player around. In this game especially, I'm probably not the best scumhunter, and my early game play still needs some serious work.

PJ, on the other hand, never lets go. And he usually gets going right off the bat. I got a first-hand account of this in Newbie 254, where he drilled me pretty damned hard before coming to a decision, despite having proclaimed earlier (on a couple of occasions) how he thought there was virtually no way I could not be pro-town. Though I have my personal misgivings about PJ's playstyle (especially how they interact with my own playstyle), I fully recognize his ability to catch scum, and I support the Kingmaker's decision to make PJ the king for Day One.

I'm pretty sure Glork's got the same idea of how great a player PJ is, he's no fool and he's not a poor judge of character.

See above.

Now consider Glork's reaction to the fact that he was not picked as King, what does he do? He decides to browbeat the shit out of the KMer, basically taking the idea that he's a better choice than PJ trying to stuff it down the throat of "whichever poor noob didn't make him king".

A joke. A simple, silly comment that one or two people have chosen to interpret as a jealous, strongarmed, bullying attempt.

But I won't apologize for having made them, and I won't take back anything that I've said to date. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I have reasons for everything I do.

What the heck is the point of this? He KNOWS it's a vanilla only game, there's no doctor that can protect him from the baddies! Perhaps he wants to make it absolutely clear to those bad bad mafia that he's definitely the best choice for the nightkill cuz he's going to completely wipe the floor with them if he ever gets the crown?

The above was sarcasm btw.

Glork's trying to imprint the idea that he must be made King into the head of the Kingmaker and disguising that as trying to get a reaction out of PJ by placing him under emotional duress(this is not a good idea, we want to know how PJ would act normally, not how he'll act when he's bent out of shape)

This is a bold conclusion to draw, to say the very least. Yes, I'm trying to stir the pot. I'm not one to avoid conflict or to say/do something that will inspire reactions one way or another. PJ's a pretty damned tough kid, and I don't expect there to be any lasting emotional trauma from the comments I've made. I've pushed enough to get a reaction (both from him and from other players), but not enough to detract from his decision-making.




Allow me to reiterate one thing: My comments were not made out of jealousy or immaturity. They were made to apply a different kind of pressure to PJ specifically, to see how he reacts.* While I'd certainly

like

to be made king at some point or another, I am not so selfish or naive that I would insist upon being made King to suit any superficial or whimsical personal desires.

I hope that clears things up a little.

[Glork]

I don't get it. Did Pablito just guarantee that I'll find scum if I'm made King?



Next thing you know, he'll be asking me out to dinner.

[Glork]

Sigh, I guess Glork didn't get the chocolates from "secret admirer".

You mean those didn't come from Amelia?


Also, you said that I would "get back to [my] call of greatness" and that I would "make things right." If that doesn't imply "execute scum," I'd *REALLY* like to know what you mean.

[Glork]

An LoE already? We're only on page ten, kids...

[Glork]

There's a difference between "lack of doing anything" and "calling everyone with momentum on them scum on the basis of 'gut' while stating that you may not make cases for your votes."

What kind of response would you expect, Phoebus? There's no denying that your posts have been demonstrably scummy. The votes are only expected; and calling Mert's vote OMGUS, when he cited a distincnt lack of contribution, is a perfectly legitimate reason for a vote. For what it's worth, I'll

Vote: Phoebus

, too.

[Glork]

I have a bad feeling about Glork. Just a hunch, but

IGMEOY: Glork

You better be on your best behavior, son.

Best behavior my ass.


YOU HAVE NOTHING ON ME!

[Glork]

Hmm... reasons that PJ is "so obviously scum," Rosso?

[Glork]

Wanna see? They are teh awexome.

IM me. <.<

[Glork]

Rosso, I'd really like you to respond to this:

Hmm... reasons that PJ is "so obviously scum," Rosso?

Unvote PJ, Vote: Rosso

[Glork]

Meh. A possibility I had considered (obviously), but PJ's other posts have made me reconsider. Is there any supporting evidence that makes you think that PJ is an assassin? Are you basing your "obviously scum" claim on nothing more than that theory?

[Glork]

I suck because I'm dismantling your attacks by merely asking you to back them up?

[Glork]

Pretty sure I like my Rosso vote right now.

[Glork]

vote: Rosso.

I doubt scum would act that retarded, so he's probably town. This is a "get your shit together, man" vote.

Have you ever played with Rosso?

He just acts retarded either way.

I'm getting a mild scumvibe from him right now... definitely enough so for a vote.

[Glork]

I'd like Mert and Spectrumvoid to restate their reasons for putting votes on cardboardbox and Phoebus.

[Glork]

Mert... you're up, slugger.

[Glork]

What about your bird1111 vote?

[Glork]

Last question: Is there anybody else you're considering voting right now?

[Glork]

Works for me.

I'd noticed that you and SpectrumVoid were on the largest wagons at the moment, and that your other vote happened to be on the birdwagon (which is the third largest wagon). I myself plan on doing a re-read in the next couple of days in order to sort through everything. But in the meantime, I was just looking for full, reiterated explanations.

[Glork]

ROFL.

You fantasize about executing me as scum?

I feel so touched.












By a guillotine blade.

[Glork]

I need to re-read this game. Life's been a little too crazy for my liking. Sorry, everyone.

[Glork]

Scum are 67% more likely to apologize for their inactivity.

82% of all statistics are made up.

[Glork]

Yeah, I'm way behind too. And I'll be gone until Monday sometime (see V/LA for details). If I have to be replaced, so be it. If not, I'll catch up when I get back.

[Glork]

Unvote Everyone

Back a little earlier than expected. Re-read coming in the next couple of hours.

[Glork]

Okay, okay, so I ended up going out with some friends and didn't get around to posting. I super-duper promise that I'll post Tuesday sometime. Before noon. I'm really sorry. I've just let this game slip and I hate it.

[Glork]

Assorted thoughts...

Rikimaru looks like a townie to me. Pablito listed possible suspicions of Riki in Post 89, but I basically disagree with him completely. I think that Riki's comment "I don't get it, are they distancing?" looks like curious, mildly-confused townie. Not scumbag planting the seeds of our demise.

I still don't know what to think of Pablito's defense of me. If he turns up town, I want him to explain this in postgame, because I really don't understand it.

Fritzler's pro-town, I think. And Cardboardbox strikes me as a pro-town newbie.

I really wanna vote MBL, but I don't think he's scum. I think he's acting like an idiot, and acting somewhat scummy... but I don't think he's scum. For now.

MoS is also a fucking moron. I don't like the "not voting" thing one bit. The "then read my posts and don't skim looking for votes" bit is bullshit. Votes, FoSes, IGMEOYs, and general suspicions are usually seen as different levels of suspicion. You should be making use of, at the very least, the first and the last. FoS/IGMEOY is optional, but they're pretty widely used and understood.

I wonder if Fritz's attacks on CrashTextDummie have some merit... I need to look into this later.

Thok doesn't sit well with me. I like Yos so far. The more I read, the less I like MoS's "I'm not going to vote" idea.

Is it just me or is the middle line of Post 199 teh ubar-scummy?

PJ's pro-town. End of story.

Pooky made a big ol' case against me in Post 211. I responded to this case in Post 218. To my knowledge, Pooky never responded to my rebuttal. That don't sit well with me.

Vote: Pooky

at least until I get a follow-up from him. I don't like when people go out of their way to make a case against someone and then just drop that case completely.

Post 225 just irritates me. I was being a bit immature (though I maintain that I meant no harm with my comments). Pablito's comment that I'm "trying to improve on [my] performance from Kingmaker the first" doesn't even apply.

:goodposting: by 'Slay.

For all the attention that bird1111 has gotten, I really don't have a reading on him either way. I just don't get anything from his posts. *Shrug*

Posts 248/249 reiterate my opinoin that MBL is being moronic. But moronic MBL usually means pro-town MBL. Usually.

Rosso's general hostility towars me doesn't surprise me (heck, his sig contains a completely unprovoked "glork sucks" quote), but I don't really like it. What I *do* find suspicious, though, is Post 277. I've already stated why I think Pooky may be scum. The fact that Rosso is quoting an overstated and completely-abandoned case with a mere ":goodposting:" makes me wonder. I'll

Vote: Rosso Carne

for good measure. Post 278 isn't very reassuring. "PJ is scum, no doubt about it"? I believe there is a great deal of doubt surrounding PJ's alignment.

I

really

don't like Post 289. I can't really explain why.

IGMEOY: Thok

.

In response to MBL's Post 317: Did you ever read Graduation Mafia? Rosso acted like a freaking moron in that game, and he was scum then. I think he's just a moron in general.

Don't like Rosso's excuse in Post 322. I will also note that his promise to elaborate went completely unfulfilled.

Confirm Vote: Rosso

The only person on PJ's initial LoE that I really advocate lynching today would be ChannelDelibird. Pablito is still an enigma to me, and I'm irritated with Phoebus' attitude. And as I said before, I just don't see the birdwagon.

Vote: CrashTextDummie

. Placeholder vote. I'm thinking Fritz may have found something, and I want to investigate what that something is.

Post 380 looks so laaaaazy!

FoS: Pablito

. I'm feeling a little better about his place on the LoE.

I pretty much agree with Post 398 completely. Finally MBL doesn't act like a lazy goof and his suspicions make sense. They pretty much parallel how I feel.

*SMACK* MoS for Post 405. For someone who's justifying his not-voting in part by telling people to read the entire game/thread carefully, he's not doing a very good job of it himself.


That's about it.



I'd like to see an execution out of one of the following: ChannelDelibird, Pooky, Rosso, Pablito, CrashTextDummie.

[Glork]

Not really. Vaughn's tough for me to read. I don't want him dead yet, though. He hasn't done anything to strike me as particularly scummy.

[Glork]

If that's the criteria, I'd advocate a Pooky execution

MUCH

more than a Vaughn execution. Pooky has feigned participation a couple of times, but doesn't seem to actually be doing anything.

[Glork]

[Glork]

Mod, what time zone is the deadline in? Can I have until 11:59 pm my time?

Considering both you and BMQ live on the west coast of the U.S., I'm guessing that the deadline is set for 11:59 PM PST. I could be mistaken, though. *Shrug*

[Glork]

What about Mert?

[Glork]

You commented on 16 players but not on Mert, Glork. Since he's said a few notable things, I figured maybe you could give us your opinion on him.

Do you even read this fucking game? Do you remember a few pages back when I questioned Mert and asked him to thoroughly explain the reasons for his votes? Did you read his extensive responses?




Why, oh why do you insist on being an absolute

idiot

, MBL?

[Glork]

Also, I *really* like my Pooky vote now.

[Glork]

I said I was satisfied with his response for the time being. That's going to have to be enough for you right now. I'm not going to give a freaking novel on everybody.

[Glork]

Also, your attempts to link me to Mert specifically have also been noted. If I made comments on 16 other people, then there are 7 people that I did not make comments towards. You might want to note my failure to include them in my "review" as well.

[Glork]

Is anybody around? Only like 3.5 hours to go. I'd like to know what people are thinking right now....

[Glork]

No legitimate response to me, MBL? Did you realize that yet again you failed to make me look like scum? At this point are you just trying to baselessly troll me because you think you can get the better of me one way or another?

'cause I'm having fun. Keep it coming, mate.

[Glork]

He's got 3 hours. And he's well aware of that. PJ will show... I just wish we knew what he was thinking ahead of time.

[Glork]

Flooded with more info? With PJ, more is always better. We both know that.

[Glork]

EBWODP: Heck, in general, more talk/info is better. Why on earth would you suggest otherwise, Thok?

[Glork]

My problem is that I am trying to understand why MoS would defend Phoebus for reasons I don't even understand, and for reasons I think do absolutely nothing in making me think Phoebus is pro-town. If MoS is scum, I seriously doubt he would defend his partner so blatantly and so poorly (WIFOM, blah blah, I know). If MoS is town, then he might actually be on to something, and I am just plain not understanding what he is getting at. (Of course, he could easily be town and completely wrong, in which case I will have to thwack him over the head later).

One thing about this.... the only time I can recall watching MoScum extensively was CoOps Mafia, in which he defended DGB near the beginning of her implosion. Though you say you wouldn't expect MoS to blatantly defend a scumbuddy, I've seen it in person. It's a distinct possibility.

[Glork]

*sigh*

It'd also help if the condemned weren't completely lurking.

[Glork]

Freuidian Penis?

[Glork]

Curse my inability to spell.

[Glork]

YES!! I have achieved "I won't bother looking over these posts" status with PJ.


My life's work is complete.

[Glork]

Oh, bah. I was actually hoping *not* to be King today. I guess I've got some scumhunting to do.

[Glork]

Same as last game, a vote by me does *NOT* mean an execution. When I Glork somebody, you'll all know it.


But I'll start off with

Vote: Pooky, MrBuddyLee, Pablito

. I'm going to read over CTD's posts soon to see how I feel about him.

[Glork]

Hey Fritz, who are CTD's scumbuddies?

[Glork]

Hmm... it appears as though we've lost quite a handful of posts. This should make things interesting.

[Glork]

Eh... I *do* want people to restate their stances regarding Bird1111. I'm pretty sure that I remember a handful of peoples' thoughts, but I still want them on record.

[Glork]

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

...that's pretty much how I feel.

To reiterate my stance: I don't know if I think Bird is scum or not (though I'm leaning towards thinking no, at this point). What I do think is that, regardless of Bird's alignment, his behavior and the manner in which the wagon sprouted up (people going "yeah, I like that theory! VOTE: BIRD!") is so chic for scum to jump on. Bus the buddy or go for the momentum-wagon. Pooky and Twomz exemplified this attitude the most, so they're on my list.

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on. Even more alarming to me was the fact that he presented the theory, defended its plausability, and said he was hoveing around 60% sure that Bird was a "nut-kicked" scumbag, but

never actually put a vote on Bird.

The siresns are so loud and ringing, I can hear them in my sleep. Even *NOW* after checking in, MBL votes for Timmy, Fritzler, and "everybody who is lurking" but still hasn't voiced his official support for a Birdlynch. Does

ANYBODY

else see this as more-than-slightly-odd?

I'm going to

Vote: Pooky, Twomz, MBL

and try to give the game a good re-read in the near future.

[Glork]

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on.

This is horseshit. I answered everything asked thoroughly and in a more-than-timely fashion.

You didn't clarify your stance on Bird until I pressured you into doing so more than once. I consider that avoiding my queries. Unfortunately, there's no way to prove that one way or another at this point.

This is stupid. I made it eminently clear that I think Bird is a very likely scumbag. Votes barely matter in this game compared to words, and I'm about as far on the record in support of a bird execution as one can be.

They absolutely matter in this game. Heck, I think that in many ways, they matter

more

in this game, since we can hold multiple votes at once. Making a set of blanket votes like "whoever else has been lurking" while not voting for someone you've been actively attacking brings the word "distancing" to mind. You're pushing in several different directions, none of which I particularly like. I see it as a distinct possibility that you're distancing from Timmy or Fritz while throwing pressure and momentum against Bird and laying down a general "lurkers should be looked at" sentiment. FoS [or, in this case, vote] your buddy while pushing elsewhere. It's a fairly common scumtell. I would hardly call that "reaching."

[Glork]

cuz bandwagoning is so tech in a kingmaker game.

*eye roll*

It basically worked against RandomActs in the first Kingmaker game.

[Glork]

In fact, it didn't even "basically" work. On Page 3 of KM1, you see that RA has a few votes on him and a little bit of suspicion/momentum against him. Scroll down the page and note that Elvis_Knits (scum) and Broomhead (scum) hop on right in the midst of things, essentially making "I agree" posts. So many people (including almost the entire group of scumbags -- everyone but PJ) jumped on RA that TSS really had no choice but to execute him. Now granted, that same tactic wouldn't work nearly as well with me (as I pretty much say a big fat "screw you" to everyone else and glork who I want, when I want)... but it doesn't mean we can't find scum within the wagon.

Anyway... I see the same thing happening to Bird here. He had a little suspicion against him D1, and people were irritated with his lurking. He came back with a big post, and MBL proposed the the theory. What happened after that? Pooky and Twomz made happy little "I agree" posts. More people jumped on the wagon. A couple of us called it bogus. Debate ensued. Wagon partially busted.

[Glork]

So you think I don't know that you're the type of psycho egomaniac who has such a deluded sense of self empowerment that he would never be swayed by crowd pressure(aka a bandwagon)?

Firstly, you said "in a kingmaker game" as a general comment. Don't backtrack now and state that you were implying it in my specific case.

Secondly, believe it or not, if the argument has some solid basis surrounding it, I'm perfectly willing to listen to the rest of the town. I just don't see that basis in a Birdwagon. It's all mere speculation, and none of it can be proven one way or another. I'd much rather watch Bird's play from here on out, see how he continues to post (he will be under a spotlight for the rest of his life in this game), and try to decide whether he's scum that way.

[Glork]

My opinion is that bandwagoning in general in Kingmaker games are quite ineffective.

I cited an example in which that was not the case. Given that there's only been one Kingmaker game played thus far, that's the only precedence we have to use. None of the other lynches were bandwagon-inspired. But TSS explicitly said later in the game that he thought RA was a townie and lynched him at the people's discretion. So yes, bandwagoning has been shown to influence Kings' decisions.

In your specific case, it probly helps the person who is being bandwagoned to survive.

I'd like to know how you think this comment is founded in the least. I'm questioning the Birdwagon because I disagree with the basis on which it is founded. If I agree with the reasoning behind a wagon, I'd naturally support it fully. Your attempts to label me as anarchistic and against-the-grain have been noted.

I'm glad you can cite one example to try to refute my point, and attempt to ignore the context entirely of my comment then accuse me of backtracking.

Cuz context CLEARLY doesn't matter at all(Sarcasm Warning)

Again, that's the *ONLY* example we have to go on. So yes, I'm using ONE example because there is only ONE similar example (meaning that of an early-game wagon against a player based on circumstantial evidence) to look at.

As far as the "context" of your comment goes, I have to ask.
What fucking context?

cuz bandwagoning is so tech in a kingmaker game.

*eye roll*

[Glork]

...erm, I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote my own (right before it). Anyway, my point is... the "context" to which you refer is me saying that I feel as if scum would be on Bird's wagon one way or another. You argued that bandwagoning in a Kingmaker game is fruitless. I gave a counterexample, and you tried to say that bandwagoning

when Glork is king

is pointless because you believe I have a tendency to buck the system for its own sake.


So... what "context" am I missing?

[Glork]

Glork, I have a little more respect for the average scummer than you apparently. I was a little more concerned with the contents of my posts indicting bird than I was in covering my ass with a vote. This is why I also support MoS's decision not to vote in this game: if people, particularly kings, are too lazy to read posts and instead rely on vote counts, they deserve to lose.

Are you retarded? Votes are not meant to be the sole measure of one's actions, and I never, ever

EVER

you to insinuate that again. I'm genuinely insulted that you would accuse me of being so naive and lazy that I wouldn't read the thread, and that I would rely solely on voting records. I read every goddamned word of every game. I read them carefully, and I read them over and over again, from different perspectives. Remember that the one time that I've ever run an extensive voting-record analysis was in Mafia 49, when I was scum. Why aren't voting histories effective as the sole judgement of a player's scumminess? Because the votes themselves are easy to fabricate, manipulate, or misrepresent (again, as I did in M49).

However, votes -- even in this game -- are an indication of the officialness of one's suspicions. Inconsistencies between one's voting record and one's additional attacks, debates, questions, or stances can be important scumtells. I noted a major discrepancy between the fact that you were willing to propose and defend your theory without making your stance official (until I asked you to explicitly tell me what you thought). Yes, I like having people vote or FoS, so that they make their opinions official and easier to spot. But I also pay attention to what people are saying on background. I pay attention to the stances they take that are not so obvious. To me, voting records aren't important for what they show about a person's suspicions. They're important for what they hide. And I feel that any good scumhunter should recognize that fact.

As for the bandwagon issue, I think it's utterly ridiculous to suggest that a series of valueless, unsupported votes gives a king any more legitimate reason to execute in this game, which is all that matters. If he executes for an illegitimate reason, then he's probably scum. So "bandwagoning" isn't the least bit dangerous. Unsupported voting, however, is, because it leaves room for fudging reasons later.

Well, at least we agree on some things. Valueless/Unsupported votes do not give a Kingmaker a reason to execute. However, that says nothing about falsely presented (or supported) reasons for execution. Consider the case of RandomActs. I don't remember the details, but I do recall that Alexander (my mason buddy in the game) was one of the leading people attacking RandomActs. He made some good points, RandomActs acted a little scummy, and people started agreeing with Alexander. They voted for RandomActs, bandwagoning his reasons, which were geunine in scumhunting intent. So what happens? All of a sudden, a majority of the players want RandomActs dead. And they want him dead for a legitimate reason. Baseless, bad bandwagoning does *NOT* make a good execution excuse. But founded bandwagoning not only allows for an execution "excuse," it can force a King's hand, even against his own personal suspicions or desires.

As debated in the original Kingmaker, a King who goes against the majority of the town's wishes has to have a damned good reason not to make an execution. When TSS executed RA, he did so in part because RA tried a gambit that failed, and in part because so many players were clamoring for his execution. Later in the game, TSS admitted that he actually thought RA was town, but that he made the execution anyway. He picked up a lot of flak for that decision. Nevertheless, TSS found himself in a lose-lose situation. If he presents a reason not to execute RA (who many players seemed to find genuinely scummy), he will be suspected. If he goes along with the ride and mis-executes, he will be suspected for hiding behind other people's reasoning. That is, in part, why this kind of wagon is so dangerous. TSS chose the latter path (going along with the execution) and eventually got executed for it. I'm choosing the former path and picking up flak.

Glork off to a terrible start as king today, and the question is... why?

A terrible start, eh? Because I disagree with you? Because I find different people suspicious for different reasons? Because I don't think that Bird is scum? You make an awfully bold and objective claim based on, well... nothing.

[Glork]

EBWODP: Last sentence should read "subjective"... not "objective."

[Glork]

...wait, I'm confused. So you're saying that when you said "because bandwagoning in a kingmaker game is tech" (spoken sarcastically, obviously), you were implying "bandwagoning in a kingmaker game when Glork is king is tech" (also spoken sarcastically)?


Because if that's what you were trying to say, the "context" was not made clear at all until after I questioned your claim.

[Glork]

I thought you were referring to Kingmaker games in general. I thought you were effectively saying "Bandwagoning in any kingmaker game is completely pointless"... hence your use of the phrase "a kingmaker game." The way you worded it, it was nothing more than a general blanket statement. I thought you were implying that any bandwagon in any kingmaker game, on any given day, with any given king, against any given player was pointless.

[Glork]

Vote: Yosarian2

I think I picked up on something when skimming over his posts. I'll return to it later (probably late tomorrow afternoon), but I'm painfully short on time tonight.


Also, Pooky, I'd like to ask one point of clarification. You criticize PJ's early-game play in your reply to him just now, saying that he's "overly methodic and dull." Please explain how this is consistent of your defense of PJKing on D1, as presented in Post 211. You championed his strategies then, saying that he never quit, that he kept looking into things and keeping tabs on everybody, that "the wheels never stop turning" with him. Why defend his methods yesterday, while calling them ineffective today?


Also, do you suspect anybody else at this point? Who? Why? Are you trying not to name any other names because you're afraid you'll give us information when I execute you and you turn out to be a dirty scumbag assassin man?

[Glork]

votes -- even in this game -- are an indication of the officialness of one's suspicions. Inconsistencies between one's voting record and one's additional attacks, debates, questions, or stances can be important scumtells.

So, for the record, you think I may have been trying to obfuscate my position on bird. That blows my mind. I wouldn't think in a million years anyone could find my comments anything but clearly accusatory. I think your judgment is exquisitely poor if you actually think that, and since I know in general your judgment is not that poor, I suspect foul motives.

I think that you were presenting a theory as a possibility, but failing to support it fully so that, if things went awry, you could claim nonresponsibility and say "Hey, I was just making a proposition."

So... yes, I do think that your posts could have been proposing a theory, letting others take off with it, then backing down as non-accusatory. I certainly thought that they were accusatory -- but your lack of a vote worried me, since it left me thinking, "Man, it seems like he's going to back down from this once it gets moving and claim that he didn't actually believe it, or that he was joking."

[Glork]

Yosarian: What inspired your change in opinion regarding Phoebus between Post 376 and Post 423?

[Glork]

Ok Glork,

Your points against me are just downright ridiculous on so many levels, I will attempt to address why,

1) So you assumed that I was talking not about this game that we are playing but some hypoethetical any other game with any other king.
a)It's a dumb assumption to make(that Pooks is talking about any given game in this current game, we're not exactly having this convo in mafia discussion or the chatroom, we're having, why is there a need to make this assumption?)

I did not

assume

that you were talking about any Kingmamker game. I came to that conclusion based on the

wording of your post

. Look at what you said: "bandwagoning is tech in a kingmaker game." Please, explain to me how that implies that you are talking about this specific situation. Because I really can't see it. At all.

b)It's kinda pointless of an assumption to make, this isn't any given game, this is THIS game, the only game that matters is THIS game, whether my statement applied to any other game is debateable but also pointless because it has no relevance to this game.

That's completely and utterly untrue. In different games, one can still glean similarities between the two games. It's called metagaming. There's a reason that scumtells exist, that people take actions based on meta-reasoning. There's a reason that people use precedence as a comparison factor. Why? Because it's inherently relevant. Yes, this game is different from the last one in several ways. Yes, this specific situation is different than the one TSS was in. But your claim that "the only game matters this THIS game" -- your claim that a "statement applied to any other game...has no relevance to this game" -- is absolutely ludicrous. People will still pay attention to a significant bandwagon. The king will still have to weigh the voices of his townspeople, one way or another (assuming, of course, that he is competent).

c) Even if Pooks did mean such a thing, and even IF there was a point to refute him and make the record clear, you've failed to do that, you've cited one day out of 8 in Kingmaker I, not only is the context different, but the game setup is different, the king is different, and even IF those factors were ignored and we could make such a comparison, 1 out of 8 isn't exactly a shining example(i haven't read KMI that carefully so you can correct me if i'm wrong about bandwagon power).

You want more examples? I'll give you more examples.

Day 2. I voted for Broomhead and Fritzler, and I FoS'd Twomz (here. However, when I made my first Execution list, I included N_Lich (here). N_Lich wasn't even on my suspicion list. But I included him on my execution list because several of the players thought he was scum and wanted him dead. People suspected N_Lich. Glork puts N_Lich on the execution list, much to his chagrin.

Day 3. Broomhead puts TSS on "The List" for being the frontrunner in the town's eyes, despite not having commented much on TSS himself. In fact, Broomhead never really gave his thoughts at all -- he went based solely on the Town's wishes and ultimately executed TSS.

Day 4. Glorky is King once again! This time around, I pretty much led the charge myself. I thought I had a pretty good idea of who was scum at that point (and wouldn't you know it... I pegged 3 of the 4 remaining scumbags that very day). This is a case in which wagoning did not impact the King's decision very much. I stuck to my guns (despite LML's request to have me glork Thok), and I executed PJ.

Day 5. Rosso Carne, replacing LML, fingered/eyed Thok, Shamrock, VitaminR, and Yosarian2 (found here). He later retracted them from Thok and VitR. EK, Vaugh, and Fuldu picked up the most votes. Rosso eventualy executed EK as scum.

Day 6. Vaughn picks up the most votes, but Thok executes Shamrock. Obviously, a bad decision.

Day 7. Vaughn picked up the most votes and was executed by his scumbuddy VikingFan. Voting influence was *VERY* important here. VF had to bus Vaughn or else it was pretty obvious that both would go down in flames.

Day 8. After much discussion, everyone pretty much agrees to take the "safe route" and execute VikingFan, the claimed Hero. Turns out VF was scum, and the town won.


So... what the townspeople say had an influence on the King's decision more often than not. In at least half of the days (D1, D2, D3, D7), the King seriously considered executing someone that he did not immediately suspect.




Is that good enough for you, Pooky?

[Glork]

Vote: Yosarian2

I think I picked up on something when skimming over his posts. I'll return to it later (probably late tomorrow afternoon), but I'm painfully short on time tonight.?

Eh? If you suspect me, then why are you following my lead when it comes to Pooky, Bird, and Tomez? I'm not getting set up here, am I?

Follow

your

lead? I've been calling Pooky scum since the middle of Day One. Heck, when you suggested offing a lurker such as Vaughn, I mentioned Pooky again and explained why he was a better choice than Vaughn. Also, though it can't be verified, I could have sworn that I was the first to vocally reject the Bird-is-scum theory as presented by MBL. As for Twomz... *shrug* so we sortof agree on that point. Twomz is actually lowest on my list of people-who-might-be-executed.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

You seemed awfully wishy-washy in this post. Saying that you thought he didn't look good, but couldn't commit to such an inkling (even rejecting your own feelings by saying "I'm not sure if it's a scumtell") feels very uncharacteristic of you.

I mention that I didn't feel like I had a good read on him, but also say that I find his constant lack of contribution and contentless posts suspicious. I also think it's fairly clear from that post that none of those four people was jumping out at me as uber-scummy.

So why comment on four people if none of them strike you as particularly scummy? If you're going to make a post and judge some players, wouldn't it be more helpful to make some "I think this guy is scum" posts rather than "I kinda almost suspect this person, but not really because I can't read him" posts?

I voted for him in post 423, and then when asked why, I said

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

There was no real change in my reasons for suspecting him. He still had not posted any real content other then the one "bandwagon everyone for no reason" post. Again, as I made clear, I still didn't really have a very strong suspicious about him, but out of the four people on the king's LOE at that point I liked his lynch the best.

So basically you fence-sat until near-deadline, then picked someone who you "couldn't get a good read on" because he was on the king's List of Execution? Again, this seems very unlike the Yosarian I'm used to seeing. I'm finding it very hard to believe that someone with your talent and experience "[doesn't] have a very strong suspicion on anyone" after nearly 20 pages' worth of discussion.

[Glork]

Can we get

Modprods

on Pariah and AmeliaSlay, please?
Can we also have a

Vote Count

?


Thanks,
King Glork

[Glork]

Unvote Pablito, MBL, Twomz
FoS: MBL, Twomz

[Glork]

I still find his actions suspect, though.

...which actions might those be, and why do you find them suspect?

[Glork]

*twitch*

Interesting.

[Glork]

Here's why he was wishy-washy.

He says he cannot get a good read on Phoebus.
He says that bandwagoning "does not look good," indicating that he finds it suspicious.
He says that he is not sure if it's a scumtell, indicating that he doesn't really find it suspicious yet -- a contradiction to his prior statement that he finds Phoebus' it suspicious.
He says that Phoebus' refusal to contribute is suspicious -- which would appear to contradict his initial statement that he cannot get a read on Phoebus.


I'm not saying that not having a firm stance is scummy. I'm saying that making conflicting comments within the same post while analyzing your thoughts on a player is scummy. Had Yosarian said something like "I think A is scummy, but I think B is pretty pro-town, so I don't have a good read on him yet," I wouldn't have a problem. Instead Yosarian points out two things he finds suspicious, and mentions that he can't read Phoebus and that he's "not sure" if Phoebus' suspicious behavior is scummy. Seems to me that suspicious behavior is, well... inherently scummy.

[Glork]

Don't make me go all Glork on you

OMG DO IT! DO IT FOR SERIOUS!!


The King has some humble requests for his people.

PJ:

Go read over Yos's posts from Day One. Explain to me what, in your opinion, Yos contributed to scumhunting in the game. Then explain how you feel this compares to what you would expect from Yosarian.

Pablito:

Please tell us your thoughts on Dead Rikimaru, Mert, and Spectrumvoid at this point. What reads or inklings do you have on them?

Yosarian:

Please give me a list of three people you think are the most pro-town. Explain why you feel they are probably innocent.

Nightson:

If I were to execute one player of your choice right now, who would that player be? Why? If that player were to turn up scum, who do you think would be most likely to be that player's scumbuddy?

Mert:

Pick any player of your chioce and run a post-by-post analysis of that player. Then ask that player to run a PBPA on another player of your choice.

CrashTextDummie:

Please elaborate on what you meant when you said this:

Pablito has confused me entirely with his play, enough so that I don't think he should be killed anymore.

Unvote: pablito

Phoebus:

What number am I thinking of? Also, please go all Glork on Yosarian's ass.

Rikimaru:

Please post some brief (or not-so-brief, if you prefer) thoughts on every player in the game.

[Glork]

I suppose Yos2 seems like he was playing slightly "safe" (i.e. trying to not to get into debates unless he could handily hold his own, and not being overly provacative), but I would frankly have to review games with Yos2 in order to decide whether or not this is consistent with his normal style (and whether or not I would hence expect that of him), so I am going to find the original Kingmaker (I can't think offhand of another game I've played with Yos2)...

For reference, some games I remembered off the top of my head in which Yosarian was pro-town:
Sesame Street Mafia
Covert Ops Mafia
Himalayan Mafia

Interesting to note: Though Yos didn't vote much in Jelly Mafia (you should at least be familiar with *this* one, PJ), he did point out that he was still asking critical questions of other players, as displayed in Post 141 of that game.
(Actually, looking at Yos's posts in Jelly, I see some parallels between that and this game. Still, I *really* don't like his lack of interaction here. That's just something I've *NEVER* seen from Yos2 before.)

I could also point to two currently-running games that I am in which Yosarian is now dead, but was in fact pro-town... but I suppose that whole "no discussion of currently-running games" thing might get in the way. I can, however, safely say that Yosarian didn't "play it safe" in either game.


At any rate, the general feeling that I get is that Yosarian normally has few (if any) problems reading and voicing his opinions on players. Talking mechanics and giving a few noncommittal thoughts on suspected players (then the metagame-based attack on MoS -- which can really only be described as nothing more than a mere metavote) just seemed very unusual to me. I guess that's why he's currently on my list.

[Glork]

I think Glork and PJ are probably both scum. It feels like Glork's going through the motions today, and PJ isn't on to it, which is very un-PJ. I also think pablito's acting way more quirky than any townie has a reason to behave--I smell some kind of cooked-up nonsense there.

Just when I started to think you *MIGHT* be pro-town, you had to go and say something so completely, utterly, and thoroughly wrong that you're starting to make me wonder again.

[Glork]

I don't get a homework assignment too?

way to make Pooky feel excluded.

Pooky:

Please tell us who your scumbuddies are.

[Glork]

Ameliaslay:

How is that re-read coming along?

Der Hammer:

Are you up to speed? What are your thoughts on people right now?

Zindaras:

Welcome to the game. Help your ol' buddy Glorky out and tell him who the dirty scumbaggos are.

MOD:

What is the status of UberTimmy? Is he being replaced? He has not posted since October 5. (Though I think he *might* have made one post which was lost in the crash.)

[Glork]

I can vouch that Yosarian was against the Birdwagon.




Doesn't mean he isn't scum, though.

[Glork]

Yo.

[Glork]

Maybe those with homework assignments can finish those up. I did mine.

I agree. King Glork is angry with those who have not finished their homework.


Yos, that includes picking a third and giving me reasons.

[Glork]

I think PJ may end up liking this kid.

[Glork]

I'm really getting anxious to Glork someone.




Also, Yosarian... I'd like you to do 2-3 people, instead of just one more. I don't want to let you off easy, as I feel like I might know someone else you'll pick as a pro-town player.

Mert, please go get caught up soon. And do your homework.

Nightson, same.

CTD, are you around? Will you do your homework assignment? Do I need to smack you into submission?

Pooky, who are your scumbuddies? Do you have a role of interest to claim?

Rikimaru, are you alive? Do you need replaced? Will you please submit your homework by next Monday? I want it on my desk, stapled, size 12 font with 1-inch margins.

[Glork]

So me demanding that several players answer questions of my choosing is not aggressive pro-town curiosity?


Please, MBL. Define "aggressive pro-town curiosity."

[Glork]

Should my play here perfectly reflect my play as King in KM1? I certainly hope not.

First, I was a confirmed innocent in KM1. I was Alexander's mason-partner, and that claim was obviously not going to go undisputed. I do not have that luxury this time around. I have chosen a distinctly different style because I realize that getting what I want won't be as simple as "Glork is a Mason. Let's cooperate with him." As a general rule, I only play nice when others play nice with me, and even that's not always the case.

Second, I do not have the benefit of having roles to discern, claims to take into account, or any other factors/information to help me decide. Other than the Kingmaker (who is effectively just a confirmed Townie), everybody (unless someone happens to be an informed Hero) will have one claim: Townie. (Near-)Mountainous games play differently than games with roles. Period. Last time around, I had confirmed innocents (N_Lich, then LoudmouthLee) and presumed innocents (Fritz and Twomz, after they claimed) to help me decide what to do.

NOBODY

is confirmed this time around. Again.... last time I could afford to "play nice." This time, I cannot.

But even then, I assert that my "homework assignments," as Pooky so aptly put them, are an attempt to be "benevolent." Tell me what I want to know, and I'll take that into consideration. My questions to players were exactly the sort of "benevolent" attempt to spur discussion and get a feel for players that you *should* be expecting. I have asked several players to give some kind of insightful contribution to the game. I have waited for their responses, as I *do* fully expect responses from each and every one of those players.

Given the different setup, my own different status, and the questions I have asked to get people talking, I still do not understand how you can accuse me of "selectively avoiding" anything. If your meta is "Glork talks about anything and everything that goes on," you

REALLY

need to get that fixed. Sometimes I like to keep close tabs on everybody -- but even then, that style is almost always confined to Newbies and Minis. I simply do not have the time, energy, or willingness to keep close notes on every player in every game of mine. In fact, even in KM1, I had to go back on Day 4 and run a PBPA on the

entire game

to decide for certain that I thought PJ, Elvis_Knits, and Vaughn were scum. I hadn't kept uber-close tabs on anybody back then. If your basis for suspicion, "Glork isn't responding to everything that everybody says," I'm really going to have to kick you in the head or something, beacuse I really don't know how else to respond to such an erroneous assumption. To assume that failure to comment on everything is indicative of scum is one of the most asinine, ridiculous, and moronic beliefs that I have ever heard of in my mafia career. I honestly have no idea whether such flawed logic is malicious or careless, but I'd appreciate it if you'd pull your head out of your ass and stop

searching

for reasons to suspect PJ and/or myself. Because those reasons just aren't there.








Can we get a

Modprod

on Zindaras? I don't believe that he has posted since replacing Pariah.

[Glork]

Oh,

Vote: MBL

MBL, Yosarian, and Pooky currently make up my tentative Execution List.

[Glork]

Well, I have my role PM now and I'll try to catch up as soon as I'm not covered under a large pile of homework.

*goes back to work*

<33333

Go find me some dirty scumbags, Zindie!

[Glork]

I'm not asking you to make your inklings set in stone. But surely you must think that some player are more pro-town than others. In my initial assignment, I said who do you think is

most likely

to be pro-town. This is nothing permanent. There's no "I absolutely believe that this person is pro-town and I will not be swayed in my opinon." But I would imagine that you can at least name a few other people who are on your good side.

[Glork]

At some point or another, if I am not killed first, I will likely examine and reply to most of the posts in this thread. However, I generally only focus on a couple of issues at hand (which is partly why I find MBL's assessment of me so odd). So.... yes and no, Pablito. I've read the responses to my 'assignments' so far. I've read peoples' posts so far. But I'd rather not make my head explode by responding to everything at once.

The questions I posed serve a few main purposes. First, I obviously have some vested interest in the questions asked, as well as the people to whom I posed questions. Second, the responses serve not only me (as I try to get/keep tabs on players) but they provide information to everyone else. Anybody -- not just me -- can go back and look at peoples' responses. The questions were designed to spur discussion. While I have my own thoughts and opinions, I absolutely encourage people to reply to each other. Third, although I asked specific questions to specific players, I feel as though any player should be both willing and prepared to answer any of the questions I asked. I think that you folks should be thinking about the kinds of things I asked; they are constantly some of the things I look for as I read and re-read in games. "Can I find connections between certain players?" "If I think that X is scum, who might X's scumbuddies be?" "Who strikes me as really pro-town? Why?" You should be asking and answering these questions for yourselves as much as for other players. My goals are to get information for myself, to spur discussion among the town, and to get other players thinking for

themselves

.

[Glork]

Quick thought, MBL: I'm pretty sure that what PJ meant to say is "I advocate either a GlorKing or a ThoKing, though I'd prefer it be Thok out of the two of them." PJ was voicing his support for me, despite his own preference. How is this so unusual?

Regarding my "noncontribution" near deadline: I gave off my full thoughts, including which executions I supported, shortly *before* PJ came in and made the plea for help. I'm curious to know why you chose to ignore this fact.

Regarding my changes in suspicions: You, MBL, obviously piqued my interest towards the end of D1. You grilled me on why I didn't comment on Mert during my re-read and insisted that it was significant, which piqued my interest. I left of Phoebus mainly because I wanted to focus my own attention to where my highest personal suspicions were. Interestingly enough, Phoebus hardly picked up any attention D2. It makes me think that the wagon against him D1 was nothing but steam, and that Phoebus is probably pro-town. I don't even know why you're commenting on Bird1111. I said that he didn't really give me much either way. I never felt the wagon on him earlier. I didn't find his participation scummy. Thus, I didn't vote/suspect him. Is this... a bad thing? Regarding ChannelDelibird: I can't even remember what piqued me on him. I think I included him because he was the only person on PJ's list (at the time of my analysis) I wasn't opposed to lynching.



One thing makes me kinda curious, MBL. Suppose you were king, and you were going to execute one person of this PJ/Glork/Pablito group you seem to think you've found. Could you give sortof a "List of Suspicions" of the three of us? If you had to place a meaningful vote or make an execution now, how would you separate the three of us?
Consider this a "homework assignment" for you.

Also, have you been in any mountainous games other than this and Himalayan? I thought I saw something that piqued my interest, but I want to cross-reference before jumping to a possibly-erroneous concluison.

[Glork]

....I still don't get it. I had posted all relevant thoughts. PJ was talking and asking for additional opinions, but I just don't think I had anything else to give. I can only do so much when like 5 out of 24 players are posting, and none of the execution candidates are anywhere to be seen. As "odd" as it may be, I can't defend or explain my actions any further than that. *shrug*

[Glork]

Alright, well thanks for the response MBL. Your connection-attempts reminded me of Jelly Mafia, when as scum you connected Ibby (town) and Noober (your scumbuddy) in this post. You ultimately went after Ibby, and a few of us saw something in it, as I indicated here. That's why I wanted you to list an order of preference. I also note your attempts to connect me to Mert, and the fact that you've continually hammered at me. I don't know if any of this is going to come to fruition, but it's just what it reminded me of. I've looked over some of your games as scum, and now I'm going to see if you tend to do as much scumpair-projecting as town.


...but that'll probably have to wait until tomorrow.

[Glork]

EDIT:

I also note your attempts to connect me to Mert, and the fact that you've continually hammered at me

(while largely ignoring Mert)

.

I meant to include that little phrase. Could be indicative of an MBL-Mert pairing. Or MBL might be aligned with either Pablito or PJ (though I'm doubting that now, given his response). Or he could very well be town, but that would just make me sad.

[Glork]

I'm talking about his play in general, CTD. I feel that it's been particularly shoddy for a good portion of the game.

[Glork]

Sure. Pick an assignment I gave to somebody else and complete it for yourself. Post your findings in the thread. (I'll explain why I gave this particular pseudo-assignment to you once you've completed it.)


Also, regarding this:

Picking up specific people to do homework also draws attention to those specific people, for the king's own reasons, which may be scummy.

I don't think it's a useless discussion today. In fact, I'm very interested to see what other people think of this notion. Legitimate? Ridiculous? Somewhere inbetween?

[Glork]

Glork, do you have any assignments for me while I reread the thread?

Not really. I'd actually prefer if you just read over everything and give your overall opinions on whatever comes to mind.

If you could jot down some things in Notepad as you read and make a "stream-of-consciousness post" with most/all of your thoughts as you go, I think that'd be great.

Also, forgot to mention this last night. I believe Fuldu theorized in game one that scum are more likely to refer to the scum team in a flavorfully correct way. Glork is the only person I've seen refer to scum as "assasins" during my rereads. There may be others who have, but I noted that Glork did for certain, and the ghost of Fuldu says take note.

I'll also note that Fuldu was completely wrong. IIRC, n_lich (KM81) and I (KM72were the only two people to refer to the scum as Assassins before Fuldu brought that up (KM94. We were both pro-town. Fuldu's observation/conclusion was erroneous. The fact that you're even attempting to use it as evidence here is just another red flag in my book.
You've just jumped to the top of my list, buddy. Congratulations.

[Glork]

I don't know, LL. I really just don't know right now. I keep wavering on MBL because though I feel that the vast majority of his points have been logically flawed or otherwise erroneous, he keeps doing some things that make me think that he's pro-town. (For example, after Pablito's bringing up of the spotlight WIFOM, I'm actually starting to come around to the notion that Pablito might be scum.)


Here's the thing, Luckay. I had (and I think I still do have) a decent chunk of respect for MBL as a player, and as a scumhunter. I expect decent play from him. When I don't see that -- especially when I see him attacking me from a thousand different angles on points that I feel are weak and/or flawed (the two biggest in my mind are his attempts to connect me to Mert and his most recent insinuation that Fuldu's "scum are likely to use flavor" theory held/holds true) -- I start to wonder. I start to get the distinct feeling that MBL is

searching for excuses to attack me

. That he's poking the bear for some reason or another. What are the possible motivations for MBL's constant attacks on me? I can think of three things. 1) He really think he keeps finding little things that make him think that I'm scum; 2) He's trying to cloud my judgement by distracting and upsetting me; or 3) He's trying to rouse other players against me for a possible future execution. Based on that train of thought, I find it more likely that MBL is scum -- that he's either trying to get in my head, or that he's trying to stir people against me. I feel that MBL's play has been particularly horrendous one way or another. I don't see his attacks on myself having any merit (and as I shoot them down, he keeps dropping the subject and finding some *other* excuse to go after me). I don't think his attacks on PJ are very well-founded and I strongly feel that PJ is pro-town. I don't agree with his nut-kicking theory regarding Bird1111. I think some of his points against Pablito (the freudian slipping and the bringing up of OMGUS) have some pretty good merit. But overall, I think his play has been absolutely shitty and it's just not getting any better.


I do not have an execution plan. I didn't warn either Slay or PJ when I executed them in Kingmaker 1. That's partly because I don't feel that I should be giving scum any prep-time if they're on the verge of being killed. I think it's apparent that MBL and Pooky are atop my list (Yos has slipped just a tiny bit, and Pablito is beginning to rise), and barring something fairly significant, I will be executing one of the four of them. So... I guess I should make my

Official Execution List: MBL, Pooky, Pablito, Yosarian2

At any rate, Luckay, I'd like to hear your defense of MBL. Maybe I just need a couple of outside opinions on him, because right now all I'm getting from him is "Scum." But I do worry that my perception might be skewed by a bit of OMGUS.

[Glork]

MBL came up with a theory that Bird1111 is scum based on the fact that, after lurking like hell and contributing very little D1, he came out with analysis/commentary on every single player, to start D2. MBL claimed that the only reason a player would suddenly become interested in a game, after doing nothing beforehand, would be if his scumbuddies "kicked him in the nuts" (i.e., told him to start posting or die/get replaced).

Bird claims that he just had a change in heart after recieving an overnight prod. A lot of debate ensued, and players took up various stances. Off the top of my head, here are what some of the players thought.
Suppoert of theory: MBL, Pooky, PJ, Phoebus(?), Twomz
Against theory: Glork, Yosarian, Pablito(?)
On the fence: Spectrumvoid

There were some other opinions, but those are the ones that stick in my mind the most. *shrug*

[Glork]

Meh, maybe I'll answer a few more, since your post kind of irritated me. As I posted Fuldu's theory, I actually didn't go back to see how it played out, I just remembered that I found it a reasonable theory when I joined that game and read his posts. And I was n_lich, so I found Fuldu's point reasonable even though it wasn't accurate in my case. n_lich was confirmed town pretty early in that game, and I'll have to reread to see if your recollection is accurate that you encouraged your scumpartners to push that line of reasoning.

I still don't think the theory is legit. In Jelly Mafia, if you remember, I played flavor quite a while. Thok did, too. We were both pro-town. In Bond Villain Mafia, late duirng Day One, you made a comment about having Bond locked in your basement or something. You were playing flavor. You were pro-town. If you have

hard evidence

that scum are more mindful of flavor, please present it. Otherwise, I don't think you can say you have a valid argument. Because something

seems

to make intrinsic/inherent sense does not mean that it is correct. This kind of

a priori

reasoning simply does not work.

If Glork is not CONVINCED that somebody is scum, WHY would he insist on 'hammering' anybody!?

lol. He does it all the time. More specifically, I meant that he's very opinionated, and when he DOESN'T try to help drive things it's odd. Not that he was supposed to act berzerk. I just saw that he was present and not helping PJ make a final decision. It could be nothing, it could be scum not wanting to be seen helping their scumpartner, it could be scum happy with the direction the lynch is headed and deciding to lay low and eat popcorn while a pro-town king languishes. I dunno yet, obviously.

Actually, PJ is mostly right. I'd say about 70% of the time when I hardcore clamor for someone's lynch, it's because I am convinced that they are scum. Graduation, Newbie 254, CoOps, Lights Out, Cultural Revolution -- all of these are examples of games in which I was convinced that someone was scum and called for their lynch in an aggressive manner. About 25% of the time, it's early in Day One and I'm doing my usual "instigate some debate" bit. The other 5% is me blowing steam, either as town or as scum. So there ya go.

You did an OK job as king D1 but it wasn't the day a lot of us expected. You didn't browbeat scum and lurkers and drag things out into the open. I know you were very busy in real life, but I have to be honest, D1 was not vintage PJ. If you're trying a different strategy, that's fine, noted. But you knew it was significantly your job to get info to make your decision and you didn't get that info. And town got lynched.

I find this entire paragraph just horrible. You insinuate that the town as a whole

expected

PJ to find and execute a scumbag. I don't care who you are or what game you're in; finding scum D1 is not an easy chore. Period. I didn't "expect" PJ to find scum. I wouldn't have expected myself, Thok, MoS, Pooky, you, Yos, or

anybody

to find scum D1. I think that the better players have a better chance of finding scum, but I certainly don't expect it.
You accuse PJ of failing to get the info necessary for a scum lynch. I don't understand how this applies. PJ asked for help. He made people well aware of his execution list/thoughts. Every player was well aware of the deadline and of PJ's requests. It is not PJ's job to force people to get online and post. You simply cannot apply the same kind of pressure near deadline in a Kingmaker game that you could apply in other situations. What should PJ have done, start putting random lurkers on his LoE? Go seek out people IRL and demand that they get on MafiaScum and post? It's true that PJ lynched a townie. Ultimately, a good portion of that responsibility rests on PJ. (Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution -- especially if we're talking D1/D2 and we have less info to go on. I find that sentiment to be quite scummy, and I'll note that part of the push by scumbags against TSS -- something that ultimately lead to BroomheadScum executing TSS -- was because he lynched a townie D1.) But I think he did what he could given what he had to work with. Because really... he had very little, relatively speaking, with which to work.

And yes, I consider many players good players, MoS, CTD, Yos amongst them. Scum can't kill all the good ones N1, so obviously your presence amongst the living right now is not a scumtell. But YOU got kinged, Glork got kinged, and Pooky is an award-winner. I chose to name you three because you're high profile and die often and early as far as I know. I'd think scum would have feared a Glorking D2 and significantly considered offing him.

Eh... in all fairness, I consider Thok at least as good a player as myself or PJ. I would also guess that scum likely considered killing me overnight. But there are several ripe N1 targets, I feel. To say that skilled players are more likely to be scum just because they outlived other skilled players is, IMO, a little absurd.

[Glork]

1) MBL is pretty much all over the place all the time. I'd actually argue that he's less all-over-the-place with his actual, serious attacks. They seem quite focused, although that might just be the fact that PJ and I keep deflecting his attacks on us.

2) I don't think "attacking someone who thinks you're pro-town" is a townie tell at all. I've got Yosarian on my execution list. He thinks I'm pro-town. Does that make me pro-town, too? I could probably apply this logic to

several

other cases (heck... me/Pablito as well, off the top of my head). It occurs too often to call it a legitimate tell, IMHO.

[Glork]

Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution

Funny, I don't remember saying that.

I think I read "significantly" as "solely." My bad.

[Glork]

Well, in all fairness, I think I've seen you get killed night 1 or night 2 more then anyone else lately, Glork.

People have this artificially high opinion of me. Also, if you take out Snakes on a Plane, where I was targeted like eight thousand times on N1, the numbers aren't particularly unusual.

But yes, I've been fragged early quite a bit as of late. Maybe someone noticed that and decided to let me live/play. Maybe someone thought that if I were kept alive, I'd go down the wrong paths. (Phoebus? CDB?) I don't know why I live. But then again, I don't always know why I die.

[Glork]

I'd like to hear Glork's opinions on Yos and Der Hammer.

You should know my thoughts on Yos. He's on my execution list; I am definitely leaning towards him being scum right now.

Der Hammer has prety much slipped by me completely. I have no idea what I think of him right now. Alas, I'm going out for the night; but I'll look over his posts and give some thoughts on Sunday.

[Glork]

1) Are you MBL's scumbuddy? Have you seen the repeated dismantling of his so-called logic? You say you "haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two." What are your thoughts on MBL from D1? Have you gotten "pro-town vibes" from him?

2) Part of the reason I suspect Mert is because I see a very strong connection between Mert/MBL (and now Mert/Yos, as Zindie pointed out). If you take Mert/MBL out as evidence (since you think MBL is town), do you

3) Do you realize how absurd your stance on Yos is? "I forget why I suspect Yos. But I like the arguments against him. But they're not damning enough." It's like you want to diststance from him but can't bring yourself to advocate getting him killed!

4) Why are you bringing up Twomz now? Are you trying to turn attention away from you and your scumbuddies?


I have scrawled on a sheet of scrap paper the following list:
MBL
Mert
Yos
Pooky
Pablito?
CTD?
StCh?


I very firmly believe that there are multiple scum in this group. I'm guessing 6 scum in this game, and I suspect that as many as half of the scumbags are on this list.

[Glork]

(Re: Pooky)Is not getting a lot off him a reason to believe he's town? I'd rather put it as a reason to believe he's scum, as he doesn't seem to be interested in catching scum at all.

Which, I might add, is *QUITE* contrary to his early attack on me, in which he attacked me for allegedly not trying to catch scum.

[Glork]

I don't understand why people think I need to be commenting on all of the "homework assignments" as they come in. I asked questions and wanted people to look at (and talk about) different things. I should not be the focus of all the discussion, regardless of whether I instigate said discussion.

Now, with regards to why I gave you that assignment: The initial question (pick three people) was because I wanted to see where you placed your "trust" (note that I use this term very lightly). I asked you an unusual question specifically to get you thinking in an unusual manner. Sometimes figuring out who you think is pro-town can lead you to find scum. I was sorta hoping you would do that; obviously it didn't happen. The reason I expanded it to 5 is because I realized that 3 wouldn't give me any info on you. When you answered 'Bird and Glork' initially, my internal reaction was "well, that's not too surprising." And then I realized that asking for 3 people isn't very controversial or revealing. If I want to get good info on you, I need to make you pick out something solid amongst the grey matter that is the "middle of the bunch." Yeah, it's easy to name one or two people you think are pro-town. But I wanted to make you look at other players, to think about who you like and who you don't like, and to pick amongst the uncertainty something -- some opinion, some significant conclusion -- that you are able and willing to share. I must say, I've been sorely disappointed that your response was effectively "well, I guess PJ too but after that it gets tough." That's not the kind of response I either expected or wanted to see. I guess that's partly why I continue to suspect you. You're still showing this unwillingness to dive down into the muck and get your hands dirty. I get this distinct nagging feeling that you're trying to be cautious, that you're still avoiding major confrontations (for the most part... this could turn into one), that you're still trying to slide by without voicing any firm suspicions one way or another. You can't seem to get good reads on people who might be scumbags. You're not willing to do some scrounging to find any significant number of people who might be townies. That kind of unwillingness, IMO, is rather scummy. It's the main reason that you're on my list.

[Glork]

Hmm... can we get a

Modprod

on Dead Rikimaru? He hasn't posted since Oct 27. Thanks.

[Glork]

Oh, and for the record, I now know who I will be executing today. I won't make an execution yet, and I will not announce my victim right now. I think the discussion right now is going very well (although I really wish that more people would participate actively in the discussion). I'd like to see this continue.

[Glork]

I've been extremely out there and I don't think I've held back much (one strong exception is the Glork-MBL interactions as of late and I've held off from completely reading those and I've only skimmed actually.)

You should read the Glork/MBL/PJ exchanges. They become highly relevant to your own standing, as MBL links you and PJ very closely, and drops my name in there a couple of times.

[Glork]

I don't think I'm copping out of anything. I'm a little sick of the fact that nearly half the game pops in to post every few days and is otherwise inactive. I asked the questions to spur discussion. Period. It may be hard to believe, but I don't always like being *THE* absolute centerpiece of the game, especially for an extended period of time. It allows too many people to slip by unnoticed. I'm leading my charges and I'm duking it out with certain players. But my sole intent in asking those questions was to make other people talk about different things. I wanted to make people take stances, make decisions, and start accusing and/or supporting each other. I wanted people to freaking talk about *SOMETHING* and all I'm getting is "Sorry, I haven't done it. I'll do it later." THIS DOES NOT PLEASE KING GLORK AT ALL.

[Glork]

Add-on to the previous post: Seriously, Yos. I'm glad that some players like Luckay and Zindaras are willing to replace into the game and can bring something to the table right away. Lurking in games sickens me, even more so in mountainous games. I don't remember if you were in Lights Out or not, but strategic lurking almost won the game for the scum. I want

other people

to start talking because I don't want anybody slinking their way around until mid- to late-game situations.

[Glork]

Now, onto your other point:

At this point, it feels like you're just trying to pull the strings without "getting your hands dirty" yourself, and I don't trust it. Especally something like the question you gave me. You say that you were just trying to "ask me an unusual question", which is plausable. However, it created a question in my mind, and made me wonder if you wanted to know who I trusted so you could decide if I should be kept alive or not. Especally when you didn't comment on any of my reasoning or anything there, while I would think that if you really wanted to "know what I was thinking", I would expect you to Glork-analyze that post in some detail.

If you think that I'm pulling strings without getting my hands dirty, I suggest that you read my attacks against Pooky, my chronic raging debate with MBL, my responses to the questions posed of me. If you think that I am not satisfactorially answering questions or addressing points, you're welcome to your opinion. But keep in mind that, as active as I am, I am neither able nor willing to comment on every detail, every post, or every player at all times. I feel that I addressed this once already when MBL made a big deal about me not commenting on Mert back on D1. I understand where you are coming from, but I ask that you keep your expectations reasonable. I'm no superman.

[Glork]

I never said that you would be my execution target today. <.<

[Glork]

I've never seen you as scum, and maybe this "less insightful, somewhat aloof" Yos is what scum Yos looks like.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I've ever seen Yos as scum either. My meta-stance on him is based on what I see as derivations to usual YosTown play.


Yos, could you link us to some games in which you were scum? I'd prefer non-Newbie games, but I'll take whatever I can get.

[Glork]

Also, MBL, though I didn't have a vote on you at the time, I did have an FoS on you. I had bumped it down because you'd said something (I forget what now) that actually made me downgrade you to an FoS. After the VC, I moved you back up to a vote.

[Glork]

MBL, you are an idiot. A bona fide moron. Have you not read the past several posts in which I've explicitly said multiple times that I posed questions to people to get them to talk? Have you not seen me talk about my discontent as players keep making excuses and delays?


I'm about 85% on who I'm going to execute right now. But that does *NOT* mean that discussion will die in the least. I absolutely plan on holding this game up until:
A) The people to whom I posed questions start answering those questions and participating in the discussion;
B) Lurkers/Inactives are replaced as we see fit; or
C) The game is forced to a deadline and I *MUST* make an execution.

I have gotten promises from Mert, Der Hammer, and Nightson that they will have re-reads and analyses completed in the near future. If they continue to not-post, I will continue to ask that they be prodded, and eventually replaced. If they continue to post non-content, I will give serious consideration executing one of them. I think that my policy is perfectly fair/reasonable. On one hand I get people grumbling about how I don't talk enough. On the other hand, I get people telling me to go after lurkers. I'm trying to get the lurkers to post. I'm trying to force them to make reads and participate in the game.


Nevertheless, MBL, allow me to make one thing abundantly claer.

I am not a proponent of a "Lynch lurkers" in the early stages of any game.

I think that it is completely and utterly foolish to take crapshots at lurkers while the actives and scumhunters are killed off overnight. Lurking does itself in sooner or later. Believe me, MBL, if there's anybody who knows how to out a few tactical lurkers, I think that such a person would be me. I stared down an endgame in the face during Lights Out and pored over the non-content to pick two lurkerscums out of group of otherwise reasonably active players. Yes, dealing with lurkers later in the game can be difficult. I have faith in the town's ability, though, to handle such a situation. I will not sit here throwing darts at lurkers while the more active players just get nightkilled anyway. On the off-chance that we hit a single lurkerscum in 3 executions, that means we're offing 1 Scumbag, 2 Lurkers, and 3 Players (who, I would wager, are probably reasonably active and/or talented). Explain to me how you think that is, in any way, a good idea. (And I don't want to see you say, "lynching a lurker will force the other lurkers to participate." Lurkers will be lurkers. And as people get more behind on the game, they will be less inclined to want to catch up. Experience has taught me that sad fact time and time again, so while the idealist in you might want to "set an example" by executing a lurker, I can just about guarantee that it won't be the case.)



Can we get a

Modprod

(or possibly a replacement) on UberTimmy? He made one post Nov 4 in response to a recent modprod but has not posted since then. I have serious doubts that he's actually reading/participating in any games right now.

[Glork]

Can we also get a

Modprod

on Cardboardbox? Last post, Oct 30.

[Glork]

Actually, MBL, there's one more thing that bothers me. For your ranting about how I haven't handled lurkers well enough, you've done nothing yourself to promote activity in this game. You have not asked for a single modprod or replacement request. You have not asked a direct question to a lurker. Only just now, as you tried once again to rip into me, did you even make a focused attack/case against a specific lurker. Explain the hypocrisy behind your allegations that

I'm

not doing enough, when I've asked for prods on a semi-regular basis, and asked specific questions of Mert and Der Hammer to get them to read and post. Explain how you can justify your attack when you yourself have made

EXACTLY ZERO

requests for modprods or replacements.

[Glork]

Dear MrScumBuddyLee,

If you think I'm not doing enough to express my discontent with the lurking in this game, I suggest that you look more closely.


XOXO,
GlorKing

[Glork]

You didn't give homework to or prod Twomz, you didn't prod box, you're not under deadline. But you've got an execution target. Yay for you, let's get today over with quick before one of your lurky scumpartners checks in and says something stupid so you have to kill them.

And I'm pretty sure I've asked for more info from lurkers in this game. You may have too from time to time, but your actions speak otherwise with an LOE out and an execution decision before the lurker issues are even resolved.

It's tough to be thorough right now with "list all" broken (it's the scumhunter's best tool imo) but I'm trying my best to be accurate. And you're trying your best to hurry this day to completion. You have NO idea how scummy you look right now, do you Glork? If you're town, you'd best actually read our posts to see why town finds you scummy, and take it to heart. You're stifling the game by narrowing discussion to your list, whether that's your stated intention or not.

[/quote]Well MY FUCKING GOD! I'm not perfect or completely 100% thorough. Getting Pariah and AmeliaSlay prodded/replaced, getting prods on Rikimaru, Zindaras, checking in on Mert and Nightson, asking about Der Hammer... that's not good enough for

me

, yet "I'm pretty sure I've asked for more info from lurkers in this game" is good enough for you? Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit absofuckinglutely not.

I maintain that your insinuation that I'm rushing anything is beyond ridiculous. I said I know who my execution target is. But I also said that I had no plans on making the execution anytime soon, since I wanted to see all open discussion topics come to an end.

THAT INCLUDES THE PENDING ANSWERS FROM THOSE WHO HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MY HOMEWORK.

I don't think I'm going any faster or slower than my two stints as King in Kingmaker the First, and I don't see how you can accuse me of rushing

anything

when I've explicitly stated that I want the discussion to continue for a while before I actually take any action. Seriously. Explain the entirety of this post, rather than going "oshit, Glork has come to a decision. He's 'rushing' things." I fucking dare you. Because I don't think you can legitimately back up the kind of assertion you're making.


Also, try http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... userposts=#### to look at a specific player's posts (where #### is the player's user number). Goodness knows I've used that extensively in the past couple of days.

[Glork]

I voted Twomz and StallingChamp because they have both posted scummy stuff, most of which was unfortunately lost in the crash. Since then, they have both fallen off the face of the earth, which makes me think that my votes are in the right place. I am particularly confused by Glorks lack of interest in Twomz: He (Glork) was the first to point out a

blatant

logical fallacy that Twomz flung in my face, but either doesn't remember or doesn't care about it anymore, now that it has been wiped from the record books.

I really don't remember what that logical fallacy was. Other than general stances/attitudes, I don't remember much of anything that happened during the crash. What did Twomz do?

[Glork]

Actually, MBL, there's one more thing that bothers me. For your ranting about how I haven't handled lurkers well enough, you've done nothing yourself to promote activity in this game. You have not asked for a single modprod or replacement request. You have not asked a direct question to a lurker. Only just now, as you tried once again to rip into me, did you even make a focused attack/case against a specific lurker. Explain the hypocrisy behind your allegations that

I'm

not doing enough, when I've asked for prods on a semi-regular basis, and asked specific questions of Mert and Der Hammer to get them to read and post. Explain how you can justify your attack when you yourself have made

EXACTLY ZERO

requests for modprods or replacements.

This paragraph is propagandist bullshit.

1) I've commented on lurkers in 477, 745, 749. I don't lynch in this game. The king does. The king therefore is the only one with the muscle behind threats against lurkers. Nightson's even said you shouldn't give a shit what your town thinks. You're the lyncher. You make the threats.

Is it propaganda? Is it really? Let's look at the insinuations that I made:
You haven't made any prod/replacment requests.
You haven't asked direct questions to lurkers.
You haven't made a focused attack/case against a lurker.

To accuse me of propaganda, you must refute my assertions with hard evidence. 477 is the only example you have provided that actually shows you giving reasons against lurkers. Go back and find, prior to our lurker discussion, any direct questions you had to lurkers during D2 or towards the end of D1 (when the identities of some of the lurkers were apparent). Go ahead. Prove me wrong. In 745 and 749, you made side-comments about what lurkerscum might be doing. You even downplayed your knowledge, though, by saying in 749 that you didn't know if that was even the case. Neither of these posts contain the kind of request, question, or attack that I described.

2) You saying I've done nothing to promote activity in this game is an utter load of horseshit. I expect a few people will take you to task on this one. I've probably addressed more players directly than anyone else. I've probably promoted more theories and connections for people to comment on. What are you talking about?

Talking about theories and connections is not promoting activity in the sense that I mean. It is true that you have provided a lot to talk about, that you have inspired a lot of discussion. But you and I both know that whether it's through general attacks/theorizing or specific "homework assignments," that there is only one way to actually promote activity in lurkers. You must apply

direct pressure.

Voting for lurkers, making attacks on lurkers, asking for prods/replacements, and interrogating lurkers; that's the only way you can actually apply pressure to them. You must actively *DO* something to get them to post. I assert that you have not done this enough to accuse me of failing to do my job.

3) You're the king. It's not hypocritical for me to expect you to do a better job of prodding and asking for lurker replacements than me. That's absurd. I think you're trying to APPEAR like you give a shit about lurkers, but the fact that you made a LOE when you did speaks otherwise. By the way, those homework questions that you're so proud of didn't jump out at me as particularly insightful.

I am the king. That makes me responsible for the execution. But

every single player

has a responsibility to contribute and to help find scum. Part of that task is maximizing activity, since more discussion theoretically promotes scumfinding. You, MBL, along with every other player, share this responsibility. To sluff the activity/health of the game onto the king is ludicrous. If you look back on the early-game discussion in KM1, you'll see that many players ultimately wanted to keep the game as collective as possible. Make the king responsible for executing somebody. Otherwise, try to normalize the game as much as possible. It makes the most sense, it gives the best odds of the town finding scum, and it means that

each and every player shares a responsibility to promote activity within the game.

4) I don't have to ask for prods or replacements to be doing my job. And I certainly don't have to ask for them in order to find you slack for the way you're approaching the lurkers in relationship to this game.

You're missing the point. No, in general, you do not have to ask for prods or replacements to "do your job." But if you are going to criticize another player about handling lurkers, while *NOT* actively outing lurkers yourself, then you are in fact a hypocrite.

I will seriously do a jig if you turn up scum.

Huh? I don't even understand this comment.

*** Oh, also. Fritzler's been pushing CTD all game.

You haven't asked him for more.

This implies you're thoroughly satisfied with that contribution and are pretty sure CTD is scum.

Is that accurate, and if so, why isn't CTD on your list of execution? If he DOESN'T belong on your LOE, then why haven't you pressed Fritz for an opinion on the four people on your LOE? ***

The statement in red is factually wrong. I'm too lazy to go find the post right now, but I asked Fritz who he thought CTD's scumbuddies were (right here). I have in fact asked him to contribute more. I believe I made another post later on, asking Fritz again who

else

he thought was scum.
Even if the statement in red were true, that does not mean that the statement in blue holds. There is no logical basis for that statement. I have already stated that I believe Fritz is pro-town. That does *NOT* mean that I agree with the conclusions he has drawn. I respect those conclusions (especially when you take into account his play in Lights Out, which was strikingly similar and proved to be accurate as he attacked SpeedyKQ), but I to say that I am "pretty sure CTD is scum" is a flat-out lie. I am willing to put off pressure on Fritzler until a later time, since I believe that he is pro-town. Pressuring a pro-town player doesn't make much sense when there are scum to be found.

Hay kids, your homework will still be due on the last day of school. It won't count towards your final grades, cause I already calculated them, but turn it in anyway, K? Huggles.

Excuse me? Who is using propaganda? The homework is not only relevant today; it is releveant for the duration of this game. Knowing who I will execute today should have no impact on the purpose, meaningfulness, or seriousness of the homework assignments. I still expect them to respond to me to the best of their abilities. I still expect them to participate in discussion and to prepare for criticism and responses. A much closer analogy would be "Okay, school's been out for a few days and some of you have been sick. I'm giving you all an extension, but I still expect you to do the work. Get it in to me soon or I will start taking off for it being late." Nice try, though.

[Glork]

Discussion is oriented towards FINDING SCUM. Once you've said YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE EXECUTING, do you really expect

most people

to continue discussing things the same way they were? You already have a lurker problem, and once you seal your little black envelope of doom with someone's name inside it, it's probably only going to get worse. You're naive if you think your rushed pronouncement was good for town and has no chance of having a negative impact. If scum wants to be safe right now, they can pick someone off that list and agree with you that that person is scummy.

Don't be so goddamned fatalist, MBL. Finding scum is a process, and people still discuss to find scum even if they think that they have settled on a lynch for that day.


Consider a game where a cop comes out and says "So-and-so is guilty. We should lynch them today." Any halfway decent town will hold the lynch and continue discussing, so as to possibly find additional scumbags on that same day. I did this multiple times in Covert Ops, where I was about an investigation ahead of pace almost the entire game. Did that stop us from discussing and debating? No. It did not. To claim that "the lynch has been determined" means "people will just stop trying to find scum" is yet another completely erroneous assetion.

[Glork]

The answer, is simple, MBL. I have, for the first time in a while, had a lot of spare time in the past few days. I have read over this thread in incredible detail and in different manners several times now. I have referenced some other games, gathered some meta info, done a little research. I have come to the conclusion that I have in fact found a scumbag. I'm basically saying "I'm making an execution and making almost solely my responsibility." You need not worry about my actions or my intentions.

[Glork]

Yeah, I'm re-considering Twomz now. Given that there's hardly any other content to work with, Twomz has definitely jumped up a couple of notches on my list.

Yos: I'm down to about 75% now, but I'm still pretty certain. Sorry, mate, but you know how stubborn I get when I think I've found scum. Still, I'm looking at alternative courses of action both now and in the future. Nevertheless, I'm going to quote these questions for truthery and ask that everyone answer them:

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

I'm going to go ahead and vouch for Zindie's innocence. It may not mean much to anybody now, but he and I have been playing mafia together since long before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I know his play and he knows mine. I'm pretty certain that he's pro-town.

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it? I used my votes the only way I can in this game: To notify the king of things I feel should be adressed. I don't have any control over what he does with it.

I would expect you to ask for a prod when voting a lurker

based on the fact that he is lurking.

I've already addressed this point with MBL. I feel that it is every player's task to make sure that people are active. If you are unhappy that Timmy is not posting, you are perfectly capable of posting "Could we get a modprod on him?"... are you not?

@SV, which points have I not addressed sufficiently?

...all of them? How are these for starters:
Your failure to follow through on your early-game attack on me.
Your failure to actually post basically anything else of content for the better part of two days, other than a couple of half-assed defenses.

[Glork]

Checking in. I still want everyone to weigh in on the LoE.

[Glork]

I'm here-ish. We're starting final exams soon, so my posting will be significantly diminished over the next two weeks or so.

[Glork]

Did he now?

I'm going to say pretty please with sugar on top and ask him to repeat it.

Yos repeated the questions in the post he made

immediately before your previous post.

My patience is wearing thin with you; you're a perfectly capable and intelligent player, and yet your laziness has prevented you from contributing anything of real significance. Pablito has quoted those questions in his response. Answer those questions.


I'll likely be making an amendment to my LoE (I read something before the last downtime that is making me re-think my position on one player, and I'm slowly revising my opinions of other players in the game), but I'd still like to hear

EVERYONE'S

opinions on those four people.

[Glork]

I'd like more insight than that, MoS. Also, don't post as GlorkoS. People will get confused.

[Glork]

You've just been useless for most of the game, and your few posts have generally managed to be both useless and hostile/agressive, which is a weird and scummy looking combination. Glork, is there any reason this guy isn't on your LOE?

Believe it or not, I actually think he's town right now. Completely intangible reasons; it's just what experience and instincts are telling me. I just wanted him to contribute a bit more, much like MoS.

[Glork]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

That shouldn't be a problem. I don't think anybody should expect to have found the entire mafia on Day Two.

[Glork]

EBWODP: Not in a large game, anyway. Minis can be a much different story.

[Glork]

Twomz has been posting in other games, if I'm correct. Why not here?

Actually, Twomz just got replaced in another game (Space Monkey Mafia).

[Glork]

Jury's out on Bird, but I just might end up admitting that I was wrong. My brain is a little too frazzled to think about all this properly. In the meantime, I'm still waiting to hear from a lot of people.

[Glork]

I think Twomz just needs to be replaced. I wouldn't hold the inactivity against him right now.


I really want to hear from Twomz, Ozymandius, Pooky, CTD, CardboardBox, StallingChamp, Mert, and UberTimmy right now. Can we get

Modprods

on all of them please (or at the very least, an update on whether they've picked up their most recent prods)? I'm sure that some of them will need to be replaced; the others may just be lurking, but there's not a lot that I'm willing to do before I hear from just about everybody. I said I would take this to a deadline or until I get replacements and/or answers. That is still *EXACTLY* what I plan on doing.

[Glork]

...yeah, that whole Burden of Proof thing still has me. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get an explanation or a defense at all.

[Glork]

Any

particular

reason? No, not really.
Fritz is on my "I'll address him later" list. I still maintain that he's pro-town, so I'm still not yet worried about him. It's similar to my reasons for not having Phoebus on my vote/execution lists righ tnow.
Nightson and Der Hammer are just people who have escaped me. I just kinda missed Der Hammer's name on the list (which means he's probably also among those who need to be replaced), and I thought I remembered Nightson making a post somewhat recently. Apparently I was mistaken.

Preview Edit: Yeah, Nightson posted a week ago. I just don't remember you posting since then, CTD, so you happened to be on my list. *shrug*

[Glork]

I think he’s actually serious about the amount of effort he’s putting into this game, be an awfully tricksy play as scum but as I ponder, I think not. For a vast variety of reason, he is putting a truly impressive amount of work into this game

There's a pretty simple explanation for this.

As much talk (whether joking or not, I can't really tell) about me having been the "perfect" King from KM1, I'm probably putting much more pressure on myself than anybody else is. I want to find and execute a scumbag more than anybody else in the game right now. And it's really because I don't want to let

myself

down, not to inflate my ego, continue my streak for its own sake, or even for the rest of the town. Now that I think about it, that's probably mostly why I've been so stubborn and selfish. I actually feel rather foolish right now. Sometime after this weekend, I'll try to make another full re-read.

[Glork]

Here's some food for thought this weekend (as I'll be gone from tomorrow until Monday sometime):

Remove MBL, Pablito from the Execution List. Add Mert to the Execution List

Other changes are coming, pending a Vote Count from our lovely Mod.

[Glork]

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

[Glork]

Oh, yeah: Rikimaru, take the weekend to read the thread over. I'd still like you to respond to my earlier "homework assignment," that'd be great:

Rikimaru:

Please post some brief (or not-so-brief, if you prefer) thoughts on every player in the game.

I really do want a couple of sentences on

every

living player. So take notes. Or something.

[Glork]

Oh poopies, a deadline. Well, here's pretty much where I stand on most of the relevant execution candidates today:

MBL: I still think that he's probably a complete idiot, but I'm warming up to the idea that he's pro-town. (

Unvote MBL

, by the way.) I think that his logic has been bad, I think that he's grasped for straws in repeated attempts to paint me as incompetent, stupid, and scummy merely for his own personal shits and giggles. But I think that otherwise, he really is trying to find scum, even if I disagree with him on virtually every account. I hate it. Dear God, it makes my soul burn to know that somebody could play the way MBL is playing... but I don't think he's scum anymore.

Pooky, I would suggest that you hurry with that analysis of every player. Your life just might depend on it. I still think you're scum.

Now that we've

actually

found some replacements, I'm much more hesitant to lurk Mert, as I really do believe that he's just gone completely inactive, and I personally am not at yet convinced of the case against him.

Pablito -- I'm still like 50/50 on you. I like a lot of your posts, and then I don't like a lot of your posts. No time for an in-depth analysis now, but you're off the list

for today

.

Yosarian... As far as I can tell, I'm almost alone in my suspicions of him. I still don't like him. I'm going to go read over his posts now, look at a bit of context, and see if I can't articulate my thoughts on him a little better.



Finally...

Mod, can we please have a vote count?

[Glork]

Okay, so while re-reading, I want to hit on one thing that really stood out to me. When CTD was posting his thoughts on Mert, he said this:

People he voted for on D1: cardboardbox, MoS, bird1111, Phoebus
Not a bad track record, although the reasoning behind most of his votes was based on the way these people chose to use their votes, which is a tad narrow minded.

Interestingly enough, he says that Mert's reasons for placing his votes (based on the

way

people choose their votes) is narrow-minded.

I don't think this can be verified by anybody in the game (except

possibly

PJ), but Ibby told me a few months ago that what CTD just questioned is actually her biggest

pro-town

tell on me. According to her, when I'm pro-town, I'm analyzing WHY people place their votes because I'm searching for MOTIVE or INTENT. I have to say, I agree completely. I think it's a damned good effective way of finding scum.

[Glork]

Yeah, I'm still looking at Pooks and Yos as my top two executees.


They'd better start convincing me otherwise.

[Glork]

Yeah, I'm still looking at Pooks and Yos as my top two executees.


They'd better start convincing me otherwise.

Obviously, I look incredibly scummy if I turn out to be wrong here, but I'm willing to stick up for these two. I can give my explanation of Pooky in one line: he's been afk and I am inconclusive about him, and he came back with an excellent post. My explanation of Yos is a bit more complex and I'm a little busy with finals at the moment, but if you really feel like executing Yos, you must hear me out.

I can see that you're one of those people who can be swayed by big, long, analytic posts. Though I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised by Pooky's sudden spurt of participation, I still think that he's probably scum.

Mert is the only execution I like of this list.
The only only execution that I even view as reasonable, in fact. And yes, it's a pity that he's not around to defend himself, but I think his day1 actions are enough to execute him.

Could you sum up in exactly three sentences why you think that Mert is scum?

Hey, if you've got an actual case to make against me that I haven't already responded to, I'd love to hear it. If not, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do to "convince you otherwise", other then keep scumhunting and trying to get more information for the town like I have been.

Gut? I'm tempted to call "Glorkdar" on this one, but I'm not

that

sure that you're scum. If I were at the point where I'd be guaranteeing that my angry little Glorkdar had settled on you, you'd have been executed weeks ago.



I also want to make a quick response to something Pooky said about me that left me somewhat unsettled:

The top reason I believe Glork to be innocent is because I would have expected him to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus quite a while ago(I honestly don’t expect all of the scumbags we’re dealing with to be type A personality psychopaths who are putting up the air of looking for scum). I’ve seen how Glork reacts to pressure in terms of high expectations in scumchat and his reaction so far is analogous as far as the medium of talk is concerned. I can see that some might say he would put on a 2 month farce and keep it running while making it look like he is trying to find scum but I honestly don’t see anyone who is scum putting on a 2 month farce and putting the sheer amount of effort I’ve witnessed from him into this game.

He says that he doesn't think GlorkScum would "put on a 2 month farce" to keep the day open. Apparently Pooky has forgotten the fct that nearly a month ago, I had already made an execution list and I even stated that

I knew who I was going to execute

. Now, depending on your point of view (read: MBL, PJ, Yos, possibly others... I forget), that effectively ended the day right there and then. In fact, I had actually written up execution posts twice, only to refrain from posting them because I figured people would get mad at me for "rushing things." Oddly enough, he says he would expect me to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus. And if I had executed him as scum a couple of weeks ago, that would've basically been what I did.

Pooky, if you're still around, I have to ask: Why the sudden inpsiration? Why have you decided, out of nowhere and on the brink of execution, to suddenly do an entire re-read and post thoughts on everybody? What does this do to the nutkicking theory about Bird1111, who essentially did the same thing?
'Cause I'm seeing a pretty clear parallel. Bird goes AWOL while under a bunch of pressure then after an extended time off, decides that he's going to post thoughts on everyone in the game. Pooky goes basically AWOL while under the threat of execution then suddenly decides to post thoughts on everyone in the game. Really, how different is Pooky from Bird? Are you (and/or others) really going to use the excuse that Bird's

overnight

inspiration indicates that he was nutkicked?

[Glork]

Really, how different is Pooky from Bird? Are you (and/or others) really going to use the excuse that Bird's

overnight

inspiration indicates that he was nutkicked?

Pooky's actions can be explained by a multitude of in-game factors we can all see in thread. He got threatened publicly; he posted big.

Bird's actions cannot be explained by anything in thread. He was threatened, he DIDN'T post, someone else got executed, and with no intervening events in game, bird posted massively to start D2. The two situations are massively different. And I'm stunned Glork that you never even put bird on your execution list. The only thing I can think is that I was the one who proposed nutkicking and Pooky bought into it, you had us on your LOE, so you "thought bird was innocent cause scummy people found him 'scummy'".

I don't like how quickly everyone seemed to wagon Bird at the very start of the day. Considering that some people I had considered reasonably scummy (MBL, Pooky, Twomz) were pushing and/or aboard that wagon, I didn't think that Bird could be scum. I'm still rather neutral about the whole situation, but I don't think Bird is the play today. Basically, I'm pulling rank and saying "even though there are a few people who would like to see Bird executed, I'm not going to do it because I don't want to."
Interestingly enough, at this point Bird only has two votes on him. As of the last vote count, Pooky and Mert were leading with 3+K. Pablito has picked up a 4th vote courtesy of Lowell. Samus/Twomz also has three. So basically, I didn't see reason to execute Bird before. I still don't see enough reason to do so, and there's not even enough town pressure for me to even consider going against my own personal suspicions.

Oddly enough, he says he would expect me to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus. And if I had executed him as scum a couple of weeks ago, that would've basically been what I did.

This reads oddly no matter how many times I read it.

Yeah, I changed those sentences around a few times because I didn't like the wording, and I think it came out even more convoluted. I meant to say something like this:
Pooky said he would expect me to bus a noncontributive scumbuddy as scum fairly quickly. If I were scum, considering how little Pooky had done over the course of Day One and early in Day Two, he would've been the ideal sort of candidate for me to have bused.
When I said "had I executed him as scum...that would've basically been what I did" probably should've had a "(kill a noncontributive scum)" at the end of it.

[Glork]

The thing about having the Kingmaker make decisions is that it takes away from the responsibility of the King. It won't matter who the king is on any given day, and it won't help us to go "well so-and-so executed two townies, and so-and-so has executed two scumbags."

Look at me, for example. I've had people lobby for me to make specific executions, but ultimately the decision comes down to me. I'm responsible for that decision. This kind of mechanic, as long as we don't focus on it

too much

, gives us fuel for discussion on future days. In fact, even today a couple of people questioned PJ's execution chioce yesterday. If we have Kingmakers continue to claim and be killed, we're taking away that element of discussion and interaction.

Then there comes the possibility of a very weak player being the Kingmaker. If we have them rule by proxy, the mafia may choose to keep him alive since his scumhunting skills aren't as up-to-snuff.

[Glork]

Bird111 has already requested replacement. And a replacement for Mert is being sought. But yeah, I'd like to seee something fairly significant from the others before I end the day.

[Glork]

Meh...

Remove Mert from the execution list

. Though 4-5 people would like to see him executed, I really don't agree with (or even fully understand, still) the reasons for executing him. I pretty much put him on the execution list to cater to the wishes of the people, since he had the most votes, but I just don't see myself doing it today.

[Glork]

Yep.

[Glork]

I for one would like the King to (again, if it's already been done) explain how he narrowed his list down to Yosarian and Pooky.

I have this uneasy feeling that you want the glory of having "got" someone more than helping us understand what the hell is going on. I haven't seen a lot of people agreeing with your lynch choices and-- speaking as someone who in other games has been accused of following you blindly-- I almost get the feeling you're on a crusade at this point.

Pooky had been pinging me since Day One. When MBL proposed his theory and a few people rolled with it, I noticed that a counterwagon started against Twomz, but not against Pooky. (The counterwagon began well before Twomz' use of Burden of Proof.) That's one of the biggest things that sends off little alarms in my head. When two people do almost the exact same thing or behave in a very similar manner, but one player starts to get run up while the other is pretty much ignored, I generally find that scum are running up the innocent while ignoring (or choosing to ignore) that their scumbuddy did the exact same thing. This is one of the things that I almost caught MBL on in Jelly Mafia (though I failed to follow through on it), and I've used it in a number of other games (including that one mini game we played together recently) with reasonably strong success.

Pooky's behavior hasn't been particularly inspiring for most of the game. PJ seemed to agree, for the most part, at least earlier in D2. When I asked why he didn't follow through on his attacks against me, he took the defeatest "well, you and I just have different opinions, and they can't be reconciled" approach. Despite being under the threat of execution, he lurked throughout a vast majority of the day, then waltzed in with a large PBPA on most of the players. Truth be told, I wasn't (and I am still not) entirely sure what to make of it. I asked Pooky why he suddenly came out with a big post at that point in the game and pointed to the similarities between him and Bird. His response was essentially another defeatest post: "I won't be able to convince you that I'm not scum, so whatever."

Yos, as I've said, is where I really seem to be the black sheep of the town. I want to execute him, and I'd like to explain why that is so, but for some reason I find myself completely unable to properly articulate why that is so. Every time I look over his posts and look around at the context, I can't pick out any new specific quotes or lines that make me twitch. It really is pretty much just a very strong hunch at this point. I did already explain how I felt Yos was avoiding any major conflicts, as I see his spar with MoS more of a tangential "general mafia-playing theory" debate rather than a scum-finding attempt. I still don't like the manner in which he responded to PJ's request to have people weigh in on the execution candidates. That's about all I can give.


I guess you're right, Lowell, in that my excution candidates aren't strongly backed by the other townspeople. Nevertheless, for all the pressure I've put on both of them, I'm still getting mostly wishy-washy "eh, I get a pro-town vibe from him" responses to both candidates. That's yet another thing that doesn't sit well with me. There are so many players who go "Oooh, a big analytic post! This player must be pro-town!" that

we haven't even reached a simple majority for an execution target once throughout the entire day

. There just aren't enough people sticking their necks out and going "yeah, let's execute this person." There's no "quest for glory" here.

[Glork]

I have to say, the more I hear from Pablito, the more he reminds me of Lights Out. At a couple of points during the game, I thought he seemed a bit scummy (much as I did earlier in this game), but he turned up to be pro-town then.

[Glork]

Mod: Do I have until 11:59 PM PST on December 22 to make a decision (as with the last deadline)?

[Glork]

Hmm....

Mod

, could we also have an updated

Vote Count

?


Also, @SV: Well, I guess that means I'm either a liar or I've changed my mind. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

[Glork]

At the very latest, in about 36 hours. At the very soonest, when I get a vote count.

[Glork]

Official Glork: Pooky

Let's see how this goes.

[Glork]

vote: Glork

I've been wanting to do this since yesterday. Reasons are scattered around, I'll organise them later.

Really.

Interesting.

Vote: Yosarian2, Phoebus

. There was someone else I wanted to vote for, but I seem to have forgotten whom. I re-read the thread like six times within a week of nightfall, and haven't looked at it in a while.

[Glork]

I remember now.

Vote: Nightson

[Glork]

Dear King Dead Rikimaru,

You should execute Yosarian2 today.

XOXO,
Glork

[Glork]

Also,

Vote: PJ

.

[Glork]

Eh, my vote was more a placeholder, Pablito. I wanted to note that I had a few questions for PJ, but since my 3:00 class has been cancelled (yay, cancelling classes on Day 1!), I find myself with enough time to actually ask those questions.


So.... A few questions for you, PJ:

Not surprised that Pooky was scum...

What exactly do you mean by this? It seems to me that it's a bit inconsist with your stance on Pooky earlier, when you said this:

I would also like Pooky to finish his analysis. I can't recall the last game where I've seen Pooky hunt for scum, so I'm interested to see him in action.

Saying that you want to see Pooky hunt scum says, to me, that you at least trust that he's genuinely hunting scum (which would, in turn, imply that you believe him to be pro-town). I realize that in a later post, you called your stance on him "netural," but I still want to know why you find PookyScum "not surprising."


Could you clarify your stance on spectrumvoid? She voted me and said she'd have reasons for it soon. You put your vote back on her in response (which is not inconsistent with your stance towards her yesterday), but you add this:

that makes me feel that much better about this vote.

What makes "Spectrumvoid votes Glork" make you feel better about my vote. Did my execution of Pooky convince you that I'm pro-town... or did you slip-up and admit that you know I'm pro-town?


I mentioned yesterday that when both Twomz and Pooky bandwagoned bird1111 (now K-Scope, I believe?), several people voted for Twomz, and only a couple of people voted for Pooky. I also expressed that I felt this was a double-standard of sorts, and that I felt that the Twomzwagon would be used to distract us (or push through a bad lynch) and to protect Pooky. Now that Pooky has turned up scum, what do you think of my analysis of the counterwagon situation? Have you taken it into account, or are you basing your suspicions solely on the fact that they behaved similarly?

[Glork]

Hey, just because you executed your scum buddy yesterday, dosn't mean people should listen to you today.

OMGUS, coming from Yosarian?



Tsk. I expected better from you.

[Glork]

Alright, I can accept those answers for now.

Unvote PJ

I think my post (and the Twomzwagon) got lost in the crash as well. Also, I want to point out that a wagon of even 5-7 voters, given the context of the players' behavior (read: the lack of willingness to vote for other people) is probably significant. I mentioned towards the end of D1 that the reason nobody could get to a majority of votes is because nobody seemed willing to just stick their necks out and

The reason I want to look at people on Twomz' wagon (such as Nightson and Yos2) is because I believe, at this time, that Twomz/Samus is pro-town. Nevertheless, I would like Samus to respond to PJ's inquiries in some way, and I would also like to hear something fairly substantial from Samus today. She's not one of the "I definitely think that this person is pro-town" players, but I don't currently think that she is scum.


Nightson is also on my list for having failed to do his homework, despite multiple promises to do so.

Yos is still on my list for... well, that whole "gut" thing. Not gonna lie, I think part of the reason I was onto Yos yesterday is because I was so certain that Pooky was scum, I already felt the Yos-Pooks connections. I still recall when Yos suggested lurker-lynching D1 and brought up Vaughn, and I pointed out why Pooky was a better choice. Yos didn't respond to that, and looking back on it, I wish I had pursued that at the time and forced a reply out of him one way or another. The OMGUS he just posted earlier this evening does not help his case. Sounds like someone's getting a little scared. I love how he's even insinuating that people shouldn't listen to what I have to say. I don't claim to be the end-all of scumhunters, and I don't necessarily want peopel to blindly follow me. Nevertheless, I find the way Yos chose to respond very interesting. I'd like him to elaborate a little more on what he meant in his most recent post.

After skimming over the thread, I'm still wavering a bit on Phoebus. I think that his play has been bad/scummy so far, but I still remember the D1 wagons against him, and how they almost completely dropped off on D2. As I mentioned earlier, that may indicate that the wagon was all steam and possibly scum-driven. Having read the posts, I just don't get a "distancing" vibe from people wagoning him.
I also think that if the people wagoning Phoebus D1 were all leigt, they would have stuck with him on D2. I don't know how much decline/variation there was between the two days' Phoebus-voters, but I seem to recall it being substantially less on D2. That's something I want to go back and re-read more closely later on.

[Glork]

I won't deny that it's a possibility. I've said myself that if I think it'll clear me for the rest of the game, I would bus as many scumbuddies as necessary to get the job done. And in doing so, I've created an interesting meta towards myself. Players who know me and have played with me know that it's always a possibility. Now consider this: Pooky knows me as well as most players (I'd say Ibby, PJ, and maybe Thok know me better); he's played in ScumChat with me enough times. Before he died, he said he would expect me to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus.

Pooky was noncontributive throughout much of the game, and I executed him as scum. Did it not occur to you that Pooky, knowing he was going down in flames, decided that in his last-ditch effort, he'd try to buddy-up to me (all the "I definitely think Glork is town" talk) while simultaneously undermining my accomplishment by suggesting that I'm a busing scumbuddy of his?

Because you're either falling right into his trap, or you're trying to push his agenda. Obviously, I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Glork]

Again, I don't know if you're intentionally using craplogic here, or if you've already convinced yourself of something and are making assumptions and circuler arguments based on it. Either way, you're basing your arguments on thin air, and I have trouble believing that you don't see it.

Not quite. Here's how my logic progresses in these types of situations:
I watch two (or more) players behave similarly. (Pooky/Twomz, for example)
I see one of them (Twomz) get accused of being scummy, get pressured, or pick up votes while the other one (Pooky) gets less actual heat.
I recognize the possibility of a double-standard. In this case, if you're attacking Vaughn for lurking and Twomz for wagoning, but largely ignoring Pooky, who has done both of those things, I wonder if you're protecting Pooky.


I think you are scum not simply because you're voting people I find pro-town. I think you're scum because on two occasions, you chose to point at people other than Pooky, when both players were behaving in a similar situation.
Expansing on the Vaughn/Pooky situation, I find one thing rather alarming. You say that you pressured Vaughn because he was lurkerscum in KM1. I don't know about you, but my meta towards Vaguhn is that he

always

lurks a lot, regardless of his alignment. Yet while you seem to ignore this, you say that you didn't give Pooky a second look because of.... lurking-meta reasons. This sets off little tiny (but very loud and obnoxious) sirens inside my head. It reeks of double-standards.

I think that Twomz and Phoebus are a little more likely to be pro-town (though I'll note that I'm actually neutral on Phoebus -- your claim that I'm arguing in cricles under the assumption that Phoebus is pro-town is flat-out poorly founded) because I didn't like either of the bandwagons against them. I do not like the general speed or attitude with which they popped up. In Twomz's case, the fact that Pooky was scum greatly strengthens this opinion. In Phoebus' case, his other actions have me second-guessing myself. There's nothing wrong with thinking that a wagon is scummy and looking for scum on that wagon. I'm not "arguing in circles" as you claim I am. I am simply making an observation, assessing the situation, and attemtping to follow leads that stem from that situation and from the information gathered:
Twomz/Pooky join the Birdwagon.
Twomz gets a lot of pressure; Pooky gets a bit, too.
Something tells me that the people pushing Twomz aren't legit, and that they are protecting Pooky.
I go after Pooky while simultaneously prodding at some of the people who wagoned Twomz (but not Pooky).
I find out Pooky is scum. My hypothesis (that someone was wagoning Twomz to protect Pooky) is strengthened.
Explain to me how this is circular again... because I'm really not seeing it. I start with the feeling of a bad wagon. I conclude that Twomz is town and Pooky is scum. I decide that people wagoning Twomz are more likely to be scumbuddies of Pooky. This is a strategy I have used numerous times in the past (and in some currently-running games). It's basically how I caught Draygn_Mage and Logicticus in Lights Out Mafia (read starting here. Note DM's defense of Logic in Post 861, note my claim of "scum defending scum" in Post 867). I like the strategy. It really works, so long as it's not overused. And I am completely and utterly convinced that I've gotten it to work again. I might be wrong about you, Yos. It might be Nightson or CTD that we should be going after. But right now, I definitely have my sights set on you.

[Glork]

Bah, sorry about the triple-post. But dammit, I smell blood in the water.

I would also like to point out the fallacy of this statement:

I've been sticking with Phoebus all game; he's given me absolutly no reason to change my mind that he's likely scum, so I have not.

While it is true that you voted Phoebus on Day One, you made it very clear that you did

NOT

have strong suspicions of him, as indicated in two separate posts: 376 and 426.

On Day Two, you didn't even

mention

Phoebus' name until I asked you about Post 376. You didn't take any actions against Phoebus until 623 when you FoS'd Phoebus for "pushing bad bandwagons"... shortly after he voted for you. Not a vote -- interestingly enough, Phoebus didn't have a single vote on him at the time.


Yet today you insinuate that you thought he was "likely scum" way back on Day One, and that you've "stuck with him" the whole time? Lies. Lies and deceit. You were only mildly suspicous of Phoebus, and you voted him only because you thought that, of the 4 executees, he was the most likely to be scum. On Day Two, you didn't even bring him up until I questioned you and Phoebus voted you. How can you possibly claim that you thought he was

likely scum late during Day One and through Day Two

?

[Glork]

People.

We should not be commenting on why so-and-so was or was not made king at this point. Doing so only helps the scum figure out who the Kingmaker is so that they can decide what to do about the Kingmaker. Keep your thoughts to yourself. Riki is our King today, and there's no sense in questioning his ability or the Kingmaker's judgment.

[Glork]

^ Ditto to above, although I could have said it more eloquently.

Pfft. Eloquence is for chumps and sissies.



Or, at the very least, certainly not people who study

mathematics...

[Glork]

Glork: said he was not THAT sure Yos was scum in post 1009, then attacked Yos.

I think you misrepresent me here, though I don't think it inentional.

I have claimed that my "Glorkdar" has picked out a scumbag twice times ever (Rosso Carne in Graduation, and DrippingGoofball in Covert Ops). Each time, I only claimed so when I was 100% certain that the player was scum, without any shadow doubt. In both cases, I turned out to be right.

Yesterday I would have given Yos about a two-thirds chance of being scum. Today, I am even more certain of that fact.

When I said"I want to call 'Glorkdar' but I'm not

that

certain you are scum," I mean "I want to just say 'I've picked you out for arbitrary reasons I cannot explain, but I am not 100% certain that you are scum." It's not a "I don't *really* think you're scum but want to call you scum," which is how you seem to have interpreted it. And I most certainly did not change my mind about Yosarian. I thought he was scum after I did a re-read, and I still do. I haven't backed down for a minute.

[Glork]

Thing is, MoS, you voiced your preference for Yosarian despite the fact that my publicized case never was that strong, objectively speaking. I'm curious to know why you in particular think that I'm a reasonable execution candidate. Could you please elaborate?

[Glork]

Also,

Unvote Yosarian2

.

[Glork]

Alright, MoS's last post prompted me to re-read all of his posts and log his suspicions and defenses. Here's what I have come up with.

Post 168: Suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, Slay
Post 201: PJ pro-town
Post 208: Cardboardbox is pro-town
Post 230: :goodposting: to Glork
Post 240: <3 Phoebus
Post 264: IGMEOY Glork
Post 300: Agrees with Glork again
Post 324: Phoebus not scum "yet"
Post 416: Prefers Bird execution to Phoebus execution. In the next post (417), he also brings up Thok, Timmy, Yosarian, saying "at least" one of them is scum.
Post 421: Calls out Twomz for voting lots of people without having any votes on him.
Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
Post 439: MoS once again defends Phoebus. Interestingly enough, he says "even Thok says Phoebus isn't scum"... despite the fact that he had just voiced his suspicions of Thok a mere 20 posts ago.
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.
Post 489: Voices against Phoebus execution again.

---Enter Day Two---

Post 550: Bird good execution "a day or two from now." Clarify, please, MoS.
Post 672: Replies to StallingChamp by saying he doesn't need to provide reasons for his defenses. More on *that* in just a bit.

---> LuckayLuck defends MoS in Post 688, saying that MoS has made some of the most insightful posts. I care to challenge this now. Mostly what MoS has done is made unfounded and unreasoned accusations or defenses of players and defended his "I won't vote" stance basically by saying "that's the playstyle I am adopting." I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why. Interestingly enough, both LuckayLuck and MoS voiced a preference for me to execute Yosarian rather than Pooky.

Post 895 (made as GlorkoS): MoS advocates executing MBL or Yosarian, but not Pooky "yet." Note all of this "I don't like this

yet

" talk. It's like MoS wants to leave himself all the freedom he can get to go "but I changed my mind. Is that scummy?" I can see the defense already.
**Both Yosarian and I ask MoS to clarify

Post 898: MoS basically says that he's lurking because he doesn't want to die. Though I can understand this sentiment to a certain extent, it feels like a lame excuse at this point. Maybe I'm biased... I don't know.

**MoS's response to Yos's clarification request: Something minor. I might not even remember it. I'm not even going to say anything else on that one. I just want you to read the post and MoS's continued clarity and directness sink in for a little while.

*NOTE: In Pooky's big huge analysis, he says that he is "more willing to put him in my townie column" due to MoS' behavior. In a game waaaay back a while ago (I forget which one, but I can find and cite it if anybody cares that much), I said something like this: "A scumbag who's giving opinions on everyone is most likely to place a 'mostly neutral, though leaning towards pro-town' label on a scumbuddy." Pooky might have done this here, with MoS.

Post 1067: Supports either Yos or Pooky execution; prefers Yos. Compliments me on my "finds."


Now Post 1149: He doesn't mention Yos, his top choice at the end of yesterday. Despite having complimented me on a "good find," he is now "becoming convinced" that I'm a good execution. Flip-flops all over the place.



The big thing is that MoS

has not backed any of his claims or suspicions with any shred of evidence

.* He has either chosen not to respond, has said "Gut," or has said that he doesnt "need" to provide any further evidence or discussion. This is absolute crap. Players

do

need to provide evidence for their accusations. MoS has insinuated that he's lurking and not explaining himself as a survival tactic. I don't remember who I was talking to, but I expressed that finding and killing scum is far preferrable to one's own survival. (And yes, this is coming from the same guy who helped lead 4 out of 5 consecutive scum lynches in Cultural Revolution, was nightkilled, then watched his town fall apart and lose the game.) I have a question for you, MoS. If you lurk, don't provide any reasoning for your opinions, and play the "survival" game, how do you expect

anybody

to trust or believe you when the town approaches endgame?


*Twomz/Thok is the only exception I have found to this rule: he says it's because they were voting for lots of people without recieving votes themselves. I don't understand this train of thought. Could you explain, MoS, why you felt this was a scumtell?

Vote: MoS

. Call it OMGUS if you want, but in his most recent post alone, he managed to convince me that he (and possibly LuckayLuck, by extension) is more likely than Yos to be scum.

[Glork]

Pooky's analysis wasn't a tell either way. In the past few months, Pooky had hardly contributed anything in any of his games, whether as scum or as town. After the game, I kinda want to ask why he came out with such a long post.

[Glork]

Making big huge posts does not make someone more likely to be town. In some instances, it makes it easier to tell if they're lying (there are more opportunities for them to slip up), but bad guys can spew crap just as much as good guys can argue their stance.

[Glork]

LuckayLuck, please... for the love of God... do not answer any more questions for MoS. If he is scum and you are giving him answers (regardless of your alignment), you're only helping him not be lynched. Now, the fact that you are attempting to answer for him only indicates to me that you're trying to help him out of the situation I have stuck him in. After MoS posts, you may post your own thoughts. But I fully expect

MoS

to explain

his own

statements and opinions throughout the game.

[Glork]

Seems to me Yos is basically saying "I don't want Glork to consider himself cleared, and here's why: Blahblahblahwhateverblahblah. I kinda suspect him, but not nearly as much as I suspect X, Y, and Z."

I don't see how this is a change in attitude. Agreeing with one of my suspicions does not mean that he doesn't think I might be scum.

[Glork]

Glork, if I cared whether or not I died, I would hardly be playing like this. My response about the Mountainous game was a joke, but you clearly didn't pick up on that. I hardly see how I am "flip-flopping" my position. Agreeing that your analysis seems right and agreeing with an argument that makes you seem to be scum are not opposite events. It's entirely possible for you to bus a scumbuddy and make a logical sounding argument while being scum, Glork. The fact that you would suggest that the realization of such an occurrence is considered "flip-flopping" just makes me more certain that you are the play today.

The reason I choose to interpret your play as flip-flopping is partially because you won't give any explanations as to why you're saying what you do. In fact, at least twice, you've "become convinced" through someone else's argument that the town should take a certain action. That seems

VERY

flip-floppy to me.

As far as bird goes, i didn't have quite the same thinking as LL. I merely felt that it would be beneficial to hear a little more from him before we got rid of him, give him a chance to redeem himself and convince me he's not scum, since I wasn't suspicious enough to want him gone yet.

...alright, that's fair enough. Bird has since then been replaced by K-Scope. What do you think of Scopey?

ROFL. I honestly want you to try and explain how changing your mind is an inherently scummy action. This should be good. When further evidence is presented for or against a person, said evidence has the ability to sway the minds of other players either in support or attack of said person. This is hardly uncommon, nor is it particularly scummy. As the day wore on and Pooky failed to show any signs that he could be protown, I became more willing to put him on the priority lynch list.

Oh, come off it, MoS. I don't think that changing one's mind is scummy. I think that repeatedly throwing out new suspicions and suggestions, without any comment on your previous suspicions/inklings, without giving any reasoning whatsoever, and without . Don't pull this "I'm not scummy for changing my mind" shit with me. It's the entire way you've played so far. You're completely uncooperative, and you're not giving any of

us

a chance to figure out whether

you're

scum or not. I somewhat ignored your play early on, but now I'm starting to think that you have something to hide -- that you won't give any reasons for what you say or do since you don't want anybody connecting you to certain other players (read: your scumbuddies).

Wow Glork. You almost had me believing I'd done something scummy for a second there. Then I actually read the quote about Yos's clarification question

in context

, something your subquote in the link failed to do. I didn't say that his scummy actions were minor or forgotten, but that whatever it was (and I still haven't bothered to figure it out, because it's not really relevant) that had

annoyed

me was minor or forgotten. That's a completely different meaning than what you are implying with the format of your analysis.

Point conceded. I didn't read your response post carefully enough.

*NOTE: In Pooky's big huge analysis, he says that he is "more willing to put him in my townie column" due to MoS' behavior. In a game waaaay back a while ago (I forget which one, but I can find and cite it if anybody cares that much), I said something like this: "A scumbag who's giving opinions on everyone is most likely to place a 'mostly neutral, though leaning towards pro-town' label on a scumbuddy." Pooky might have done this here, with MoS.

You know, I'm feeling good enough that I think I'll even take the bait on this little tidbit, since I don't really care if it makes me look scummier. I have a little question for you, Glork. When's the last time that Pooky was considered a typical scum player? Just wondering .

My experience with PookyScum thus far mainly stems from when we were scumbuddies in Goats Mafia. Pooky freely attacked people who were not in our scumgroup, but he largely ignored what happened with his scumbuddies (Aelyn/Romanus). Considering Pooky was attempting to make a "genuine analysis" on everybody in the game, he couldn't simply ignore you (or his other scumbuddies). So I've come to the conclusion that he likely kept opinions of most (if not all) of his scumbuddies in the neutral to seemingly-protown range.

So basically, MoS... yes, I do expect that Pooky would behave in a "typical" scum manner in this case.

I thought I already explained the voting tell. Out of context (using just the vote count), someone who has placed a lot of votes without receiving many themselves seems to be flying under the radar or not really garnering much attention, in part because they have spread their suspicions around so much that they aren't really committing to making concerted attacks on any particular people. I figured that early game, that was as good a tell as I was going to get.

Alright, I see where you are coming from. But I think that you've exhibited many of the same traits that you yourself consider(ed) scumtells.
Throughout Day One, only two people voted for you. You yourself had not garnered many votes.
Over the course of Day One, you expressed suspicions of or advocated executions of Twomz, AmeliaSlay, Vaughn, Glork, Thok, UberTimmy, and Yosarian2. You also asked that PJ execute Bird over Phoebus, but I'm willing to let that slide since you defended Phoebus so adamantly. Though you did not

vote

for anybody, it is evident that you threw out suspicions

all over the place.

When you were asked to clarify some of your points, you avoided answering the inquiries on more than one occasion. I've already noted these, yet you seem to have decided not to reply to them either. You are at least as guilty of "trying to stay under the radar" as Timmy, Thok, or Yosarian were, considering you blatantly

avoided

replying to people who had questions for you.
I really, really

REALLY

want to hear how you care to explain the fact that you can have the audacity to bring up a tell on Timmy/Thok/Yos while exhibiting the exact same tell yourself. I don't want any of this "But since I wasn't

voting

anybody, the tell doesn't apply to me" nonsense.



Anyway, since you seem to have once again selected what you want to respond to, I'm going to quote a couple of things that I said/asked to which I want you to directly reply:

Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
...
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.

The big thing is that

MoS has not backed any of his claims or suspicions with any shred of evidence

.* He has either chosen not to respond, has said "Gut," or has said that he doesnt "need" to provide any further evidence or discussion. This is absolute crap. Players

do

need to provide evidence for their accusations.

I have a question for you, MoS. If you lurk, don't provide any reasoning for your opinions, and play the "survival" game, how do you expect

anybody

to trust or believe you when the town approaches endgame?

[Glork]

EBWODP:

I think that repeatedly throwing out new suspicions and suggestions, without any comment on your previous suspicions/inklings, without giving any reasoning whatsoever, and without

clarifying or elaborating when asked to do so

.

[Glork]

Yos basically said this:
Since I executed scum, I'm more likely to have credibility in the eyes of the town. I obviously went after Yos hard yesterday (and I kept pressing today, until MoS presented himself as a better option), and the scums killed MBL (who was widely thought to be pro-town, by the end of the day, and had defended Yos). In spite of the possiblity of WIFOM, Yos asked if I was kept alive because of the fact that I would push Yos so hard today, because they were hoping that we would clash (which we have) and that it might lead to a lynch of one of us (which it might).



In response to Yos, all I really have to say is that, if someone is picking up a lot of flak and in the center of attention (which you were), there is no way that they are going to die. As far as why

I

wasn't killed... I have two theories. One, at least one scumbag is aware of my "I'd bus my scumbuddies, especially in a Mountainous game" statement at the end of Lights Out. I'd hate to admit it, but I definitely think that it's a distinct possiblity that I'm being left alive so that people will wonder why I'm not dying. It certainly would not be the first time that has happened. The other theory I have is that, since I couldn't be made King today, I don't hold any

actual

power. Regardless of the executions I push, I am much less likely to actually be the one deciding today's execution. Tomorrow, I may be back in the saddle if I'm still alive. Obviously, we don't know that yet. Then there's also the fact that I've been an extremely vocal player, and I'm bound to be near or in the spotlight as long as I'm alive. A bit of a double-edged sword, if you ask me, but I understand why it is so.

[Glork]

For the record, I still see a case for Yos being scum, and I'm certainly not abandoning that. Right now, though, MoS has jumped up on my list, and MoSscum strongly implies YosTown, IMO.

[Glork]

*chomp*

[Glork]

But if you'll notice, Yos, there was a point in the day when I decided that MBL was actually town based on his behavior. I had pretty much zoned in on the two of you completely, and I was trying to decide which one of you/Pooky was

more

likely to be scum.

[Glork]

Hmm.


I'd have to say MoS, Yos, and Nightson... though I don't think that both MoS and Yos are scum together. So take that for what it's worth.