Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bird would be a good execution a day or two from now.

[Phoebus]

Whee!

My official stance -

I don't like the initial one liners in bird's mega post.
I subscribe to the "kicked in the nuts theory".
I have stated that in my lexicon, likely and plausible are synonyms.
Also,

vote: bird

Oh and MoS needs a smack.

[Twomz]

Lol, in all my games the major posts attacking or defending <____> are gone.... wtf?

[Yosarian2]

In any case, my opinion is that MBL's theory is more than plausible, and in reality, likely. Apparently the people agreeing with this theory are somehow "scummy", but I was wondering about that

before

MBL proposed it, so it's not as if I was simply hopping on his idea.

I don't think MBL's origional "kicked-in-the-nuts" theory was suspicious; it's an interestesting speculation that makes some logical sense. I don't think it's a very strong theory, though. It's fairly common for people to suddenly decide they're not going to lurk anymore and to take an interest in a game, and when they do that the first thing most people do is do a re-read and try to figure out what's going on, often making some kind of general game summery post in the process. I've done that pleanty of times when I wanted to catch up with a game I felt behind on, and in fact, MBL himself recently did that in an ongoing game.

But anyway, like I was saying, MBL's "nutkick" theory dosn't seem scummy to me, but it's not very compelling either, so it seems very odd to me the way a very strong bandwagon very quickly appeared and gathered a lot of support based on just that.

Tomez's attacks on bird seemed quite scummy to me at the time. Unfortunatly, the posts are gone, and I myself can't remember all the details.

[bird1111]

Unvote: Phoebus

as I did so before the crash, but the post was deleted

[Dead Rikimaru]

Wow, I was starting to think MS would never be back again.

back to the game:

Vote: pablito

[Nightson]

Grr, I'm going to

vote: Twomz

. I recall his post being the scummiest but I can't remember exactly what was in it.

[CrashTextDummie]

Restating my suspicions for the King's viewing pleasure:

Vote: PJ

, for lynching Rosso on extremely short notice and without giving him any time to defend himself. PJ defended himself against this accusation, but not to my satisfaction. I find it suspicious that PJ of all people waited for the very last second of the deadline to compose his final List of Execution (and the first one to mention Rosso at all) even if real life matters claimed most of his free time. Given his status as a player and his position as king yesterday, I would have expected him to take extra care to play as good as possible, but he didn't. In fact, the way he played it out (waiting for the deadline to hit in order to execute a townie "under pressure") is what I imagine to be a very viable strategy for a scum king.

Vote: StallingChamp

, for his one post of substance, which was unfortunately lost to the crash. In it, he complimented PJ on a good decision, while admitting a bit later that he has no idea why exactly Rosso was under so much scrutiny. Due to the circumstances, I can't prove that he really said that, but I suggest at least keeping an eye on him.

Vote: Twomz

. He was one of the people most blatantly hopping on the birdwagon, but that's not his only crime. Asked by me if he actually had any reason to vote for me apart from Fritzler demanding it, he used an especially insulting logical fallacy on me: Burden of Proof. Again, this has been lost in the crash, but I'm sure King Glork remembers it, seeing as he was the first to call the fallacy.

Vote: ubertimmy

, for extreme lurking.

I think that's it.

[pablito]

vote: ubertimmy, crashtextdummie

I previously didn't suspect CTD, but I really don't like his reasons for voting PJ. I remember having voted for Mert and Twomz and Pooky before...but right now I'm unsure on Twomz and I'll give Pooky more time before I pass judgment on him.

As for CTD...there was a deadline and PJ had to do things differently because of the deadline. When you look back at yesterday's end, you should look at PJ's stance on Rosso in his three-tiered list. Then look at Glork and my posts after that and how we refer to our suspicions on both Pooky and Rosso and how we frame these suspicions. Then look at how much of that may have influenced PJ and how much of the lynching circumstances for Rosso were independently processed by PJ and how much he relied on Glork and my stances on Rosso for his choice.

If you believe that PJ was scum king and made a mis-execution yesterday, then clearly there would have been motive to protect someone or misdirect everyone. Therefore, CTD - what was PJ's agenda in getting rid of Rosso? I don't believe that PJ got rid of Rosso simply because Rosso was vocal against PJ - in fact, PJ knew he'd have to deal with the consequences (and burden of pro-town play like Glork) today anyway - so eliminating Rosso could not have been as beneficial to a scum king as anything else...at least all in my opinion.

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes, Pablito, I already expressed my opinion that yesterday's decision was a tough one to make for pro-town PJ. It's my hesitation to believe that pro-town PJ would wait so far into the deadline to get down to business in the first place that makes me suspicious of him.

His defense of having time constraints at that time is one I cannot dispute. But since it

can

serve as a cover for a scum-king to execute a townie, I'm not willing to buy it either. He said it himself, believe it or don't, and I'm inclined not to.

I have to ask you though, Pablito:
What message do you think you're sending to a potential future scum king by granting PJ complete impunity just because he was under a deadline and had your support? Never mind that he broke one of the rules he imposed on himself:

2.) I will only execute persons while they are on my LoE, and I will give them 48 hours notice if I am planning on Executing them, from which time they may make final pleas, and the town (obviously) should chip in their opinion.

And no, I don't know what motive scum PJ could have had for executing Rosso, apart from him probably being PJ's most vocal oponent. I can't read minds. Can you?

I don't believe that PJ got rid of Rosso simply because Rosso was vocal against PJ - in fact, PJ knew he'd have to deal with the consequences (and burden of pro-town play like Glork) today anyway - so eliminating Rosso could not have been as beneficial to a scum king as anything else...at least all in my opinion.

Most of us are townies, so having Rosso dead is about as beneficial to scum as anyone else. The fact that your reasoning for why scum PJ wouldn't execute Rosso is mostly based on WIFOM is not sitting well with me though.

[MrBuddyLee]

vote ubertimmy, Fritzler, whoever else is lurking

It's a mountainous game. We need words, not just votes.

Also, imagine the dilemma that a PJ Scumking faces. He loves being town, he loves finding scum, and yet he is scum and the sole burden of executing falls upon him. He will probably not execute scum unless it's the obvious choice, and there was no obvious choice day one. He's embarrassed to have to appear to be a crappy king--before the game he probably dreamed of matching or exceeding Glork's performance as king in the first game.

So how does a PJ Scumking respond to that situation? I think he puts the job of hunting scum off as long as possible and doesn't do his usual thorough job. He puts a scum in his list of suspicion as a distancing tactic in case he's caught later. But ultimately he lynches the scummiest town he can reasonably execute, his argument for the execution is wishy-washy accompanied by much angst because he wants everyone to know he tried him best and it's not really his fault if he doesn't hit scum.

So now the question is, does this describe PJ's behavior day one. I'll reread to check, but I wanted to post these thoughts while they were fresh in my head. I think they're an accurate estimation of how PJ would deal with being a scumking.

[spectrumvoid]

MBL: I remember agreeing with many of PJ's theories day 1 about who he thought he was scummy etc. I was surprised at the lynch of RC though, since I don't think there was that much spotlight on RC before the lynch. However, I'm not sure if that means PJ is a scum-king, because we were at deadline. I also remember thinking that RC wasn't the most scummy of all the people on the LOS. (I can't remember exactly why now, but I'll do a read.)

I won't vote any new lurkers yet, I'd prefer if we give them more time to get back after the crash. However,

vote: stalling champ, ubertimmy

for the same reasons as 557.

About Twomz: I can't remember what he said and what happened...

[Yosarian2]

Most of us are townies, so having Rosso dead is about as beneficial to scum as anyone else. The fact that your reasoning for why scum PJ wouldn't execute Rosso is mostly based on WIFOM is not sitting well with me though.

Well, it might be WIFOM, but a scum-PJ would have to know that it would be hard to accuse him if he simply did what he said he was going to do an execute someone on his list of execution, and then if anyone questioned him on it later, he'd just have to say "well, sorry, but I just went with the town. If you don't like my decision that's fine, but then why aren't you also attacking X, Y, and Z who voted for person A?".

Basically, I don't think PJ's breaking his own rules is a strong argument against him; if he's town, I would expect him to be willing to take a risk and break his own rules if he thought he was more likely to hit a scum that way, but if he's scum, I think he'd be less likely to do that.

[pablito]

Yes, Pablito, I already expressed my opinion that yesterday's decision was a tough one to make for pro-town PJ. It's my hesitation to believe that pro-town PJ would wait so far into the deadline to get down to business in the first place that makes me suspicious of him.

Hell, very few townsfolk were even getting down to business

until

the deadline came around. PJ did provide consistent participation and insight prior to the deadline and I feel he gave as much analysis before the deadline than before. I do not see PJ's decision as a reflection of lack of anything or an intentional misappropriation of time. I do not feel that he waited to the last minute. Considering what the town was giving him, I see that he made as best of a decision he could have and he also showed a lot of independence in that decision (but make of it what you will). I blame the town for not discussing early enough to help PJ make his decision. We hold the burden of executions as well. Even though our votes may not inevitably lead to a lynch, it is our discussion and movement in analysis that helps the king make his decision no matter how independent the choice is. If we don't work hard enough during day, we

cannot

expect the king to make the best decision possible. I'm sure that doesn't address any of your points, CTD, but I feel it needs to be known that it's all of our fault that Rosso was executed, it's just that certain people, like PJ (and likely me) are more accountable for it.

I have to ask you though, Pablito:
What message do you think you're sending to a potential future scum king by granting PJ complete impunity just because he was under a deadline and had your support? Never mind that he broke one of the rules he imposed on himself:

2.) I will only execute persons while they are on my LoE, and I will give them 48 hours notice if I am planning on Executing them, from which time they may make final pleas, and the town (obviously) should chip in their opinion.

To me, any king who even bothers to listen to me obviously has some stance on my trustworthiness. If a king can analyze my alignment, then I believe he has the ability to put enough analysis into the process and is likely a pro-town king and therefore will make the best judgment for the town.

Also, Rosso was barely around and I felt it to be a tell. Also, it's the town fault for having a deadline imposed. If discussion didn't lag, we wouldn't have had that deadline. Again, I'm unabashedly placing primary blame on the town.

And no, I don't know what motive scum PJ could have had for executing Rosso, apart from him probably being PJ's most vocal oponent. I can't read minds. Can you?

Well I was wondering if you had a hypothesis on what PJ was doing. Was he planning to bus Phoebus or bird1111 and suddenly found an out with Rosso? Was he trying to misdirect the town or maybe even bring more attention to himself to protect his scumbuds? Was he trying to act unorthodoxly to bring about some WIFOM scum action? Was he just trying to get rid of a vocal opponent by executing him?

I simply do not find reason to suspect PJ only for breaking his own rule or acting odd under deadline. I think PJ is so calculating that if he's scum he would not have executed someone unless he had the logic to back his decision. I think there's a lot more behind PJ's decision than he's told us, and you have every right to demand it (in fact, I would support such an action).

I don't believe that PJ got rid of Rosso simply because Rosso was vocal against PJ - in fact, PJ knew he'd have to deal with the consequences (and burden of pro-town play like Glork) today anyway - so eliminating Rosso could not have been as beneficial to a scum king as anything else...at least all in my opinion.

Most of us are townies, so having Rosso dead is about as beneficial to scum as anyone else. The fact that your reasoning for why scum PJ wouldn't execute Rosso is mostly based on WIFOM is not sitting well with me though.

Take it as WIFOM or not, I stand by my positions no matter how scummy or pro-town they appear to others. But I'm obviously biased because I wanted Rosso executed, I'm not afraid to admit it. I believe in one of the kidnapped posts I asked for Glork and me to be examined as much as PJ for the decision since we were the only three who bothered to mention Rosso in the times leading up to the execution.

[Mert]

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

[Fritzler]

vote ubertimmy, Fritzler, whoever else is lurking

It's a mountainous game. We need words, not just votes.

weren't you scum in mountainous? bad connection

[Glork]

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

...that's pretty much how I feel.

To reiterate my stance: I don't know if I think Bird is scum or not (though I'm leaning towards thinking no, at this point). What I do think is that, regardless of Bird's alignment, his behavior and the manner in which the wagon sprouted up (people going "yeah, I like that theory! VOTE: BIRD!") is so chic for scum to jump on. Bus the buddy or go for the momentum-wagon. Pooky and Twomz exemplified this attitude the most, so they're on my list.

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on. Even more alarming to me was the fact that he presented the theory, defended its plausability, and said he was hoveing around 60% sure that Bird was a "nut-kicked" scumbag, but

never actually put a vote on Bird.

The siresns are so loud and ringing, I can hear them in my sleep. Even *NOW* after checking in, MBL votes for Timmy, Fritzler, and "everybody who is lurking" but still hasn't voiced his official support for a Birdlynch. Does

ANYBODY

else see this as more-than-slightly-odd?

I'm going to

Vote: Pooky, Twomz, MBL

and try to give the game a good re-read in the near future.

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on.

This is horseshit. I answered everything asked thoroughly and in a more-than-timely fashion.

Even more alarming to me was the fact that he presented the theory, defended its plausability, and said he was hoveing around 60% sure that Bird was a "nut-kicked" scumbag, but

never actually put a vote on Bird.

The siresns are so loud and ringing, I can hear them in my sleep. Even *NOW* after checking in, MBL votes for Timmy, Fritzler, and "everybody who is lurking" but still hasn't voiced his official support for a Birdlynch. Does

ANYBODY

else see this as more-than-slightly-odd?

This is stupid. I made it eminently clear that I think Bird is a very likely scumbag. Votes barely matter in this game compared to words, and I'm about as far on the record in support of a bird execution as one can be.

You're reaching, Glork. It smells foul. If you have sirens going off in your head, it's more likely that you need to replace the battery.

[bird1111]

Vote: Pooky

I did not like how he was willing to execute me extemely quickly, and the way he jumped on my bandwagon was vey suspicious.

Though currently I'm leaning towards MBL being town, though his scumdar is way off; as he hasn't acted much like a scum going for a easy lynch.

[Glork]

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on.

This is horseshit. I answered everything asked thoroughly and in a more-than-timely fashion.

You didn't clarify your stance on Bird until I pressured you into doing so more than once. I consider that avoiding my queries. Unfortunately, there's no way to prove that one way or another at this point.

This is stupid. I made it eminently clear that I think Bird is a very likely scumbag. Votes barely matter in this game compared to words, and I'm about as far on the record in support of a bird execution as one can be.

They absolutely matter in this game. Heck, I think that in many ways, they matter

more

in this game, since we can hold multiple votes at once. Making a set of blanket votes like "whoever else has been lurking" while not voting for someone you've been actively attacking brings the word "distancing" to mind. You're pushing in several different directions, none of which I particularly like. I see it as a distinct possibility that you're distancing from Timmy or Fritz while throwing pressure and momentum against Bird and laying down a general "lurkers should be looked at" sentiment. FoS [or, in this case, vote] your buddy while pushing elsewhere. It's a fairly common scumtell. I would hardly call that "reaching."

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

cuz bandwagoning is so tech in a kingmaker game.

*eye roll*

[Glork]

cuz bandwagoning is so tech in a kingmaker game.

*eye roll*

It basically worked against RandomActs in the first Kingmaker game.

[Glork]

In fact, it didn't even "basically" work. On Page 3 of KM1, you see that RA has a few votes on him and a little bit of suspicion/momentum against him. Scroll down the page and note that Elvis_Knits (scum) and Broomhead (scum) hop on right in the midst of things, essentially making "I agree" posts. So many people (including almost the entire group of scumbags -- everyone but PJ) jumped on RA that TSS really had no choice but to execute him. Now granted, that same tactic wouldn't work nearly as well with me (as I pretty much say a big fat "screw you" to everyone else and glork who I want, when I want)... but it doesn't mean we can't find scum within the wagon.

Anyway... I see the same thing happening to Bird here. He had a little suspicion against him D1, and people were irritated with his lurking. He came back with a big post, and MBL proposed the the theory. What happened after that? Pooky and Twomz made happy little "I agree" posts. More people jumped on the wagon. A couple of us called it bogus. Debate ensued. Wagon partially busted.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So you think I don't know that you're the type of psycho egomaniac who has such a deluded sense of self empowerment that he would never be swayed by crowd pressure(aka a bandwagon)?

[Glork]

So you think I don't know that you're the type of psycho egomaniac who has such a deluded sense of self empowerment that he would never be swayed by crowd pressure(aka a bandwagon)?

Firstly, you said "in a kingmaker game" as a general comment. Don't backtrack now and state that you were implying it in my specific case.

Secondly, believe it or not, if the argument has some solid basis surrounding it, I'm perfectly willing to listen to the rest of the town. I just don't see that basis in a Birdwagon. It's all mere speculation, and none of it can be proven one way or another. I'd much rather watch Bird's play from here on out, see how he continues to post (he will be under a spotlight for the rest of his life in this game), and try to decide whether he's scum that way.