Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Glork]

So me demanding that several players answer questions of my choosing is not aggressive pro-town curiosity?


Please, MBL. Define "aggressive pro-town curiosity."

[MrBuddyLee]

Sure thing. One definition would be, "When someone as high profile and controversial as pablito makes a 300 line long analysis post, you don't skim over it only to agree with a one-liner comment he makes about people not doing homework in his subsequent post."

Another definition would be:

PJ, on the other hand, never lets go. And he usually gets going right off the bat.

I realize the crashes have affected game interest and pacing, but I'm still feeling a selective avoidance from you and PJ.

I'll go back and reread your reigns from KM1, but offhand I recall you being a less...

benevolent

king.

[Glork]

Should my play here perfectly reflect my play as King in KM1? I certainly hope not.

First, I was a confirmed innocent in KM1. I was Alexander's mason-partner, and that claim was obviously not going to go undisputed. I do not have that luxury this time around. I have chosen a distinctly different style because I realize that getting what I want won't be as simple as "Glork is a Mason. Let's cooperate with him." As a general rule, I only play nice when others play nice with me, and even that's not always the case.

Second, I do not have the benefit of having roles to discern, claims to take into account, or any other factors/information to help me decide. Other than the Kingmaker (who is effectively just a confirmed Townie), everybody (unless someone happens to be an informed Hero) will have one claim: Townie. (Near-)Mountainous games play differently than games with roles. Period. Last time around, I had confirmed innocents (N_Lich, then LoudmouthLee) and presumed innocents (Fritz and Twomz, after they claimed) to help me decide what to do.

NOBODY

is confirmed this time around. Again.... last time I could afford to "play nice." This time, I cannot.

But even then, I assert that my "homework assignments," as Pooky so aptly put them, are an attempt to be "benevolent." Tell me what I want to know, and I'll take that into consideration. My questions to players were exactly the sort of "benevolent" attempt to spur discussion and get a feel for players that you *should* be expecting. I have asked several players to give some kind of insightful contribution to the game. I have waited for their responses, as I *do* fully expect responses from each and every one of those players.

Given the different setup, my own different status, and the questions I have asked to get people talking, I still do not understand how you can accuse me of "selectively avoiding" anything. If your meta is "Glork talks about anything and everything that goes on," you

REALLY

need to get that fixed. Sometimes I like to keep close tabs on everybody -- but even then, that style is almost always confined to Newbies and Minis. I simply do not have the time, energy, or willingness to keep close notes on every player in every game of mine. In fact, even in KM1, I had to go back on Day 4 and run a PBPA on the

entire game

to decide for certain that I thought PJ, Elvis_Knits, and Vaughn were scum. I hadn't kept uber-close tabs on anybody back then. If your basis for suspicion, "Glork isn't responding to everything that everybody says," I'm really going to have to kick you in the head or something, beacuse I really don't know how else to respond to such an erroneous assumption. To assume that failure to comment on everything is indicative of scum is one of the most asinine, ridiculous, and moronic beliefs that I have ever heard of in my mafia career. I honestly have no idea whether such flawed logic is malicious or careless, but I'd appreciate it if you'd pull your head out of your ass and stop

searching

for reasons to suspect PJ and/or myself. Because those reasons just aren't there.








Can we get a

Modprod

on Zindaras? I don't believe that he has posted since replacing Pariah.

[Thok]

Prod sent

King Glork: PookyTheMagicalBear, Yosarian2

LuckayLuck (0): bird, ubertimmy
bird1111 (3): Twomz, PookyTheMagicalBear
cardb0ardb0x (0):
CrashTextDummie (0): petroleumjelly, StallingChamp, Twomz, UberTimmy (2)
Dead Rikimaru (0): pablito
Der Hammer (0):
Fritzler (2):
Mastermind of Sin (1):
Mert (1): Twomz, PookyTheMagicalBear
MrBuddyLee (0): UberTimmy, Fritzler
Nightson (0): Twomz
pablito (3): UberTimmy, Yosarian, Mert, stallingchamp
Pariah (0):
petroleumjelly (1): PookyTheMagicalBear, bird, ubertimmy
Phoebus (0): bird1111, pablito, Yosarian
PookyTheMagicalBear (4+K)
spectrumvoid (0): StallingChamp, ubertimmy
StallingChamp (3): Pooky, Fritzler, MOS
Twomz (5):
UberTimmy (4):
Yosarian2 (2+K): Twomz, pablito

[Glork]

Oh,

Vote: MBL

MBL, Yosarian, and Pooky currently make up my tentative Execution List.

[pablito]

I'm voting StallingChamp too

Mod note: Fixed

[LuckayLuck]

Of your list of 3, Glork, I really don't feel like executing Yosarian2.
To a lesser extent, I don't feel like executing MBL.

I don't want to lynch them because Yosarian2 is reading "somewhat townie" and MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read of them by displaying all posts from username. I will not expand on my reasoning on this currently because if I let them continue performing this certain mystical voodoo type townie tell tomorrow, I will be a lot more certain. I'll expand if for one person, or for both people if you directly order me to, though.

Oh, and also - MBL, you accused me of liking people who post with a more analytical and expository style. YES, I give them brownie points for this, but I don't auto-townie these people. In fact, Pooky is one of the people who have been posting in this style, but sadly he hasn't managed to hit my townie tell feel yet.

One final note: I have an obsession with townie tells. My gameplan is not to support lynches because I believe people to be mafia, but rather, I will support lynches because I believe them to lack townie tells. There is a minor difference there. This is just my style of play. Similarly, if somebody is on the execution block who has hit my townie tell button, I will defend them until their head is chopped off, no matter how controversial it may be.

[MrBuddyLee]

[*]MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

[spectrumvoid]

Hi luckayluck. I'll make my own summary of your posts to make it clear.

People leaning on the side of town:
MoS, MBL, Nightson, Pablito, PJ, box, dead rikimaru, fritzler, glork, mert, SV,

People leaning on side of scum:
bird, stallingchamp, uber

?
Pooky, Vaughn, Yos, CTD

You find a very large number of people pro-town. I'm not saying I disagree with any specific person on your list, but a lot of how what you use to judge people on is based on your feelings. I agree with MBL on that you generally think people who post analytically are pro-town. But thanks for jumping in so quickly.

I don't understand this line: bird1111: You didn't have the posts to go of... fishy. I know you find bird scummy because you voted for him, but I'm not sure why.

Side-note:
How do you do links in the posts?
I'm suffering from yet another error message, check it out in help forum. If I get another one I'm getting out of here permanently.

[LuckayLuck]

[*]MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

Change of opinion because I looked up the people on the execution list's show all posts, where I didn't yet when I first jumped in. And...going with the flow, wtf? I just defended two people who the king has on the execution list.

Speaking of that, when I use the show all posts function, I can only see the first page of all the person's posts. How can I see the next page? (clicking next page or "2" leads me to the main thread and not of the person's posts)

[LuckayLuck]

Hi luckayluck. I'll make my own summary of your posts to make it clear.

People leaning on the side of town:
MoS, MBL, Nightson, Pablito, PJ, box, dead rikimaru, fritzler, glork, mert, SV,

People leaning on side of scum:
bird, stallingchamp, uber

?
Pooky, Vaughn, Yos, CTD

You find a very large number of people pro-town. I'm not saying I disagree with any specific person on your list, but a lot of how what you use to judge people on is based on your feelings. I agree with MBL on that you generally think people who post analytically are pro-town. But thanks for jumping in so quickly.

I don't understand this line: bird1111: You didn't have the posts to go of... fishy. I know you find bird scummy because you voted for him, but I'm not sure why.

I -do- find a large portion of people pro-town at the moment. "Neutral / ???" is my default view, after about 5 posts or after an extremely profound / goodpost, I start moving people away from neutral. If I don't know what to think, or if I see both a townie tell and a scum tell, I might stick them at "Neutral / ???"

The thing to remember though, are that I am only currently willing to argue strongly / defend the following people:


MoS
MBL
Nightson
Pablito
petroleumjelly
Glork


There MAY be others that I am actually willing to argue strongly and defend if they reach the chopping block, once I view all their previous posts. I usually would have a better feel for people by now, but I'm coming in 2 months late. I'm not going to yet methodically go through everybody's posts, I'll go for the key people for now.



oh, and I'm not sure why you're confused by my bird11111 vote. I explained it already.

[Zindaras]

What? I'm in this game? I haven't even received a role PM!

Well, if Thok gets me my PM, I'll try to catch up on this game in the afternoon.

[Zindaras]

Well, I have my role PM now and I'll try to catch up as soon as I'm not covered under a large pile of homework.

*goes back to work*

[bird1111]

Mod, I unvoted Yosarian

Mod Note: Fixed that too.

And of the people on Glork's execution list, I'm only comfterable with Pooky right now

earlier, something somebody said which the conspiracy side of me liked was that "you came back with a strong long post because the mafia told you to do so."

I responded to this before; but since it was lost in the crash I'll repeat myself; how could me scum buddies be more effective than PJ/the mod? I came back because I realized I was going to be a replacement when I shouldn't be; or in other words, out of regret.

[Quote="LuckayLuck"You didn't have the posts to go off of, you wanted to lynch bird111 for being inactive. Now, his defense / posts are fishy.[/Quote]

Still not sure what you mean by this

Also, as a general note, don't forget that the analysis post you've been reffering too was early day 2; so many of my opinions have changed since.

Still need to do a reread; most likely will happen tommorow afternoon/evening

[Glork]

Well, I have my role PM now and I'll try to catch up as soon as I'm not covered under a large pile of homework.

*goes back to work*

<33333

Go find me some dirty scumbags, Zindie!

[Yosarian2]

Also, Yosarian... I'd like you to do 2-3 people, instead of just one more. I don't want to let you off easy, as I feel like I might know someone else you'll pick as a pro-town player.

:eyebrow:

You expect me to be able to name 4-5 people as pro-town, on day 2 of a vanillia game, when the day 1 lynch was a townie that most people hadn't even commented on before he died, and then give detailed reasons for all 5 people?

I'm going to do a re-read soon, as I'd expect everyone to do when the forums been down on and off for about two weeks, and I'll share any new observations I have, but sheesh.

[Glork]

I'm not asking you to make your inklings set in stone. But surely you must think that some player are more pro-town than others. In my initial assignment, I said who do you think is

most likely

to be pro-town. This is nothing permanent. There's no "I absolutely believe that this person is pro-town and I will not be swayed in my opinon." But I would imagine that you can at least name a few other people who are on your good side.

[pablito]

I think that MBL has a compelling but narrow-minded argument with

Sure thing. One definition would be, "When someone as high profile and controversial as pablito makes a 300 line long analysis post, you don't skim over it only to agree with a one-liner comment he makes about people not doing homework in his subsequent post."

I think MBL has a good point that Glork hasn't addressed my posts, nor many other homework assignments yet. I think the fact that Glork asked the questions and is mentally compiling the information is enough though. Also that definition of "aggressive pro-town curiosity" is a very good example but it's too esoteric actually.

Thus, Glork, the term "homework assignments" imply more that we hand in our assignments to you and you check them and grade them. But I'm wondering if you'd rather that act as a diving board into better town discussion. Because there's some good stuff we can analyze in some of these homework assignments (even moreso with the deliquent assignments), but no one's really tried to talk about them yet. Also, I think MBL has a good question - were you intending to talk about my latest posts? I have a better idea of where I stand with you, but I don't know if the rest of the town does.

[Glork]

At some point or another, if I am not killed first, I will likely examine and reply to most of the posts in this thread. However, I generally only focus on a couple of issues at hand (which is partly why I find MBL's assessment of me so odd). So.... yes and no, Pablito. I've read the responses to my 'assignments' so far. I've read peoples' posts so far. But I'd rather not make my head explode by responding to everything at once.

The questions I posed serve a few main purposes. First, I obviously have some vested interest in the questions asked, as well as the people to whom I posed questions. Second, the responses serve not only me (as I try to get/keep tabs on players) but they provide information to everyone else. Anybody -- not just me -- can go back and look at peoples' responses. The questions were designed to spur discussion. While I have my own thoughts and opinions, I absolutely encourage people to reply to each other. Third, although I asked specific questions to specific players, I feel as though any player should be both willing and prepared to answer any of the questions I asked. I think that you folks should be thinking about the kinds of things I asked; they are constantly some of the things I look for as I read and re-read in games. "Can I find connections between certain players?" "If I think that X is scum, who might X's scumbuddies be?" "Who strikes me as really pro-town? Why?" You should be asking and answering these questions for yourselves as much as for other players. My goals are to get information for myself, to spur discussion among the town, and to get other players thinking for

themselves

.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not asking you to make your inklings set in stone. But surely you must think that some player are more pro-town than others. In my initial assignment, I said who do you think is

most likely

to be pro-town. This is nothing permanent. There's no "I absolutely believe that this person is pro-town and I will not be swayed in my opinon." But I would imagine that you can at least name a few other people who are on your good side.

Why do you ask, anyway? Shouldn't we be hunting scum now instead of hunting town?

Anyway, like I said, the bandwagon against Bird made me think he's more likely town then not, and your behavior today has struck me as pro-town.

I'm also getting a pro-town vibe from Pablito's posts; one thing specifically that strikes me is that I don't think it's very likely a scum would defend cardboard box; if CB was town I'd expect scum to be more likely to pile on the easy wagon, and if CB was scum I doubt his scum-buddy'd stick out his neck like that for him on day 1. Either way, I think pablito is probably a good guy.

After that, it gets harder. If I had to guess, I'd guess PJ was town based on his actions and the style of his posts; it doesn’t seem to me that scum would act the way he did at the end of the day on day one, but that's a very WIFOM argument and I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, especially as he did end up killing a townie and giving us next to no information from day 1 in the process.

And there's really no one else I'd feel comfortable giving even conditional support to at this time.

[MrBuddyLee]

PJ:

1.) I am feeling better about Glork after reading through his interaction with Mert and after rereading his posts from an attempted more objective point of view. I will admit I have fantasized about executing him today and watching him come up scum (I think that would be ironically apropos), but I haven't managed to convince myself he's scum. ><

2.) Since it's pretty clear I'm not the Kingmaker, I think I will advocate a Glork-King tomorrow, although I think I would personally prefer a Thok-King (simply because Thok almost seems to be matching my brainwaves this game), both strong players (who are attentive to the game), and who I am currently thinking are likely to be town.

Why advocate a Glork king even though a) you would prefer a Thok-king and b) "haven't managed to convince myself he's scum" is hardly a ringing endorsement.

My current suspicions are primarily Bird1111 (which began for very weak reasons, but there has been absolutely no content from Bird which leads me to want to change my opinion on him) and Phoebus (for his voting record on the largest bandwagons on the basis of 'gut', which I simply have a hard time 'digesting')

This suspicion of bird looks somewhat like you are warning a scumpartner that they're not contributing and you'd be forced to vote for them if they didn't *nudge nudge* give us some content. You even make sure to say your suspicions of him are for weak reasons, laying the groundwork for moving off him if he posts content.

As recently as two days before deadline, you said:

I still have not found anybody I would actually be willing to execute other than Bird1111 and Phoebus.

Then the deadline's bumped 2 or 3 days and immediately pablito and Glork comment on Rosso being scummy for lurkish and unusual behavior. No one else has mentioned Rosso in five or so pages. But suddenly the King's last minute execution list reads:

People I Strongly Consider for Execution
Phoebus
Bird1111
Rosso Carne

And then PJ picks bird to elaborate upon, and does so in a way that appears to lay the groundwork for him to take bird off the table. He says people don't see merit in the bird case, says bird's more a lurker than anything, and asks the mod for a potential replacement.

I also think I should detail my thoughts on Bird1111 a little bit more, since people either seem to not get my case or do not feel it has much merit...

With no elaboration on the Rosso thing whatsoever. He's basically letting Glork and Pablito speak for him. Which is odd.

I have a hard time reading lurkers, so if worse comes to worse, I have no problem in having them replaced, or culling them off. Lurkers who I also consider to be scummy (and by way of lurking have avoided recent detection) only strengthens my general policy.

Mod, if I do not execute Bird1111 today, can he be replaced by somebody more active?

This reads somewhat like clumsy avoidance of an execution of your lurky scumpartner.

I'm the only one to comment on Rosso for a bit after that, saying he's an OK lynch but not a great one, and then pablito chimes in to note PJ's sudden inclusion of Rosso. Pablito says he'll approach the impending execution possibilities assuming they will be pro-town, which is curious.

He takes bird off PJ's list for him:

My guess is that bird1111 is highest on PJ's list but the fact that bird1111 has been an extreme non-poster in this game is making PJ reconsider it slightly. I mean, bird1111 has barely even bothered to defend himself. I wonder if a replacement on bird1111 will make us suspect the replacement less or even more and whether that's the path that we want to take. Also, is there enough compelling evidence alone by bird's lurking actions to find him as our best option as scum?

And doesn't comment on what the impact of a pro-town bird execution would be like.

He signs on to a Rosso lynch:

I'm intrigued by PJ's extremely sudden inclusion of Rosso. I like it, but I have to wonder what the thought process for PJ was.

and then theorizes about what a pro-town Rosso lynch would result in:

The only people who have voiced concerns on Rosso are Glork and me. And both of us are fairly visible enough that a Rosso execution (which turns up with Rosso as town) won't necessarily change people's minds on us.

Then theorizes about a pro-town Phoebus execution and even says it's likely he'll turn up town but would yield ok stuff:

the wagon on him and the deduction used is so pallid that a Phoebus execution is probably going to end with a town death. Nonethless, knowing his confirmation for sure can give us some insight into others in this game.

Note again for emphasis,

pablito left out the possibility that bird would turn up town upon execution, despite saying he'd analyze all three potential targets that way.

The obvious theory being that pablito knows bird's not gonna turn up pro-town.

At deadline

, PJ fishes for support of a Phoebus lynch and begs for help:

Any input right now would be appreciated.

He gets none, then explains his odd last-minute Rosso campaign. Pablito gives the thumbs-up on Rosso.

Now this is huge: Glork posts FIVE TIMES in the two hours between PJ begging for help and PJ's execution of Rosso. And basically goofs off, gives PJ no clear advice whatsoever.

This is very un-Glork, if you ask me.

Thok, pablito and MoS weigh in--Thok helps take Phoebus off PJ's list, pablito encourages a Rosso execution, and MoS doesn't give an opinion.

PJ executes Rosso, who only Glork and pablito had found scummy enough to vote for. Rosso, who had found PJ and Glork scummy. Nine people had more votes on them than Rosso, including both bird and Phoebus, and PJ dodged a bird execution with moral support from pablito. Pablito, who had the most votes on him (9) yet never made PJ's list of execution.

Start of next day Glork votes pablito, MBL, Pooky, leaving off

* Phoebus, who he'd found scummy the previous day
* bird who contributed nada D1, and
* ChannelDelibird, whose execution Glork specifically said he supported at the end of D1.

I need to reread this massive mess of a post to try and draw some conclusions from it. I see protection of bird by PJ and pablito, collaboration between PJ, pablito and Glork, lack of scumhunting and extreme spectating down the stretch by Glork. I think I see pablito knowing more than he should, and accidentally indicating that to us. And PJ pushing a Glork kingship D2 despite finding

Thok

to be a better candidate for kingship.

[Glork]

Quick thought, MBL: I'm pretty sure that what PJ meant to say is "I advocate either a GlorKing or a ThoKing, though I'd prefer it be Thok out of the two of them." PJ was voicing his support for me, despite his own preference. How is this so unusual?

Regarding my "noncontribution" near deadline: I gave off my full thoughts, including which executions I supported, shortly *before* PJ came in and made the plea for help. I'm curious to know why you chose to ignore this fact.

Regarding my changes in suspicions: You, MBL, obviously piqued my interest towards the end of D1. You grilled me on why I didn't comment on Mert during my re-read and insisted that it was significant, which piqued my interest. I left of Phoebus mainly because I wanted to focus my own attention to where my highest personal suspicions were. Interestingly enough, Phoebus hardly picked up any attention D2. It makes me think that the wagon against him D1 was nothing but steam, and that Phoebus is probably pro-town. I don't even know why you're commenting on Bird1111. I said that he didn't really give me much either way. I never felt the wagon on him earlier. I didn't find his participation scummy. Thus, I didn't vote/suspect him. Is this... a bad thing? Regarding ChannelDelibird: I can't even remember what piqued me on him. I think I included him because he was the only person on PJ's list (at the time of my analysis) I wasn't opposed to lynching.



One thing makes me kinda curious, MBL. Suppose you were king, and you were going to execute one person of this PJ/Glork/Pablito group you seem to think you've found. Could you give sortof a "List of Suspicions" of the three of us? If you had to place a meaningful vote or make an execution now, how would you separate the three of us?
Consider this a "homework assignment" for you.

Also, have you been in any mountainous games other than this and Himalayan? I thought I saw something that piqued my interest, but I want to cross-reference before jumping to a possibly-erroneous concluison.

[MrBuddyLee]

Clearly, the big associations are between pablito and PJ. I think pablito looks scummiest based on that summary I just posted, with PJ a close second. And I do think it's odd that with PJ clearly dithering between Phoebus and Rosso, you chose to let him dangle in those final few hours. I noted that you posted an analysis a bit earlier, but I still find your lurking presence and failure to comment on the specific issues raised in those last few hours odd.

I'll get into more detail in a bit on your question. And I think I was recently killed in a Mountainous as town--Back to the Basics.

[Glork]

....I still don't get it. I had posted all relevant thoughts. PJ was talking and asking for additional opinions, but I just don't think I had anything else to give. I can only do so much when like 5 out of 24 players are posting, and none of the execution candidates are anywhere to be seen. As "odd" as it may be, I can't defend or explain my actions any further than that. *shrug*

[Glork]

Alright, well thanks for the response MBL. Your connection-attempts reminded me of Jelly Mafia, when as scum you connected Ibby (town) and Noober (your scumbuddy) in this post. You ultimately went after Ibby, and a few of us saw something in it, as I indicated here. That's why I wanted you to list an order of preference. I also note your attempts to connect me to Mert, and the fact that you've continually hammered at me. I don't know if any of this is going to come to fruition, but it's just what it reminded me of. I've looked over some of your games as scum, and now I'm going to see if you tend to do as much scumpair-projecting as town.


...but that'll probably have to wait until tomorrow.