Kingmaker II-Game Over

[spectrumvoid]

Crap. That's the 3rd time I hit submit instead of preview today.

vote: Phoebus

[Mastermind of Sin]

Quote fest ahoy!

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it?

Why not? I mean, it doesn't have to be begging, but you can try to bring it to the King's attention.

placing my vote = bringing it to the King's attention

What's so hard to understand about that?

It should also be noted that there's a difference between not posting at all for a while and posting every once in a while and saying nothing of susbtance in the process. It has already been proven in this game that prodding ubertimmy does not result in him posting any useful content.

Then why did you vote him? Prods nor votes were really helping.

Because his excessive lurking warranted a vote. Duh.

I place my vote where I feel it belongs. Whether or not it helps is unfortunately out of my hands.

You could not make an extensive case on PJ? I mean, really, you think PJ is scum, you vote him, but you can't make a big case on him, even if he's been arguably the most prolific player Day One?

I don't need to have an extensive case on someone in order to voice my suspicion on them. I appreciate your little fantasy about catching all the scum in one fellow swoop, but it's too ambitious for your own good. I can tell that you're wrong about at least one of the the trees you're barking up on. Right now I think you're barking up on the wrong entire forest.

It would take a colossal blunder from someone like PJ for me to nail him on Day 2 of a mountainous game. What he did was not damning, but it was enough for me to be suspicious of him at the beginning of Day 2, and I voted accordingly, in a post that was longer and more thorough than the one you keep referencing, I assure you. It was lost in the crash, so I reposted a condensed version of it. Tell me what's scummy about that.

I really hope you are joking here, but pointing out scummy posts and voting accordingly is what a pro-town player is supposed to do. You did it yourself when you declared me scummy for one post I made. If I were able to make a detailed case against someone on D2 shortly after a significant number of posts have been lost, this game would be a lot easier.

Yes, you are correct. But you need to do more than just that. Pointing out scummy posts is not enough. You need to keep focusing attention on the players, ask them questions, be inquisitive.

3/4 of the players in this game are not doing what you're asking of me. Why exactly do you single me out?

So, because Rosso was town, PJ

has

to be scum?

Because Rosso was town and executed under what I consider to be very dubious circumstances, that makes PJ more likely to be scum, yes.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped acting like I was desperately trying to get PJ executed. You're the one who pushes BS cases like your like depended on it.

I think PJ was just under a lot of pressure, from the deadline and from himself, and that made him screw up.

Please go back and look at Rosso's posts and tell me he deserved to be lynched over them. He's generally not the easiest fellow to read, but at the very least, he wasn't giving off bad vibes. At worst, you could say he was typical Rosso, which rarely tells you anything about his allignment.

PJ knows Rosso. I really can't picture pro-town PJ going over his posts at the last minute and thinking that he's more deserving of an execution than any other player in the game.

I can't comment on what SC said, since it was lost in the crash, before I got in this game, but it seems like a weak case altogether.

That's just lovely. You can't comment on what SC said (which is quite correct), but for some reason you insist that me picking up on it is hugely scummy.

The difference is that I've looked at all your other posts and found nothing in there that speaks for you.

I'm sure you went over the abundance of posts that speak for StallingChamp while you were at it. I have to say, Zindaras, you're exhibiting some extreme double standards in this game.

What made your vote on ubertimmy useful, exactly?

You're awfully fond of ubertimmy, aren't you? If my votes weren't "useful" in your opinion, I'm sure you'll agree that they weren't harmful either, correct?

You have made it perfectly clear by now that you don't agree with any of my votes, I get it. But I still haven't seen an argument for why they are scummy.

And if it's any comfort to you, I don't think yours are that hot either.

You can make cases against whoever you want to. If they are good, the King will consider them and listen to you.

I don't consider it my job to make perfect cases so that the king may pick off all the scum one by one, because I'm not dilusional. I'm trying to contribute as best as I can and I will continue to point out what I believe to be scummy actions or players along the way, whether you like it or not.

I generally don't make big big cases unless it's a good one and I am confident I have caught a scum. I can't say yet whether you're even trying to catch scum, but I can tell that your cases aren't good ones. At the very least, this makes me seriously doubt your judgement.

----------

I think I already answered Yos' questions, but I'm gonna go back and do a reread in the next couple of days anyway. I'll post my thoughts on a couple of players when I get there.

*eyes glazed over*

Can you give me a 2 sentence summary of what you said? I might actually know what that was about, then -_-

[Zindaras]

placing my vote = bringing it to the King's attention

What's so hard to understand about that?

Just like in a normal game, there's more to a lynch than just a vote.

I don't need to have an extensive case on someone in order to voice my suspicion on them.

Yeah, but if you want to get anywhere, it helps a whole lot.

I appreciate your little fantasy about catching all the scum in one fellow swoop, but it's too ambitious for your own good. I can tell that you're wrong about at least one of the the trees you're barking up on. Right now I think you're barking up on the wrong entire forest.

Meh. I've done it before. I'll admit I have toned down my expectations somewhat, mainly because of a similar analysis that turned out to be completely wrong on basically everyone (though it was Day 1, with considerably less players and considerably fewer posts). Which is exactly why I want Mert executed.

It would take a colossal blunder from someone like PJ for me to nail him on Day 2 of a mountainous game. What he did was not damning, but it was enough for me to be suspicious of him at the beginning of Day 2, and I voted accordingly, in a post that was longer and more thorough than the one you keep referencing, I assure you. It was lost in the crash, so I reposted a condensed version of it. Tell me what's scummy about that.

How the hell am I supposed to know that? It's not exactly obvious from the thread that this thread contained so many awesome reasonings.

3/4 of the players in this game are not doing what you're asking of me. Why exactly do you single me out?

Because I know you can do better.

Please go back and look at Rosso's posts and tell me he deserved to be lynched over them. He's generally not the easiest fellow to read, but at the very least, he wasn't giving off bad vibes. At worst, you could say he was typical Rosso, which rarely tells you anything about his allignment.

PJ knows Rosso. I really can't picture pro-town PJ going over his posts at the last minute and thinking that he's more deserving of an execution than any other player in the game.

I know naught of Rosso's playstyle (never played with him in a game, as far as my memory goes), but, yes, I did find his silly entrance in the game and his subsequent disappearance scummy, or at least odd.

That's just lovely. You can't comment on what SC said (which is quite correct), but for some reason you insist that me picking up on it is hugely scummy.

What I understand from Post 557 is that you voted SC for one post, which was lost, in which he contradicted himself. That seems a bit over-the-top.

I'm sure you went over the abundance of posts that speak for StallingChamp while you were at it. I have to say, Zindaras, you're exhibiting some extreme double standards in this game.

Yes, I have. I put opinions about all players in my analysis.

You're awfully fond of ubertimmy, aren't you? If my votes weren't "useful" in your opinion, I'm sure you'll agree that they weren't harmful either, correct?

If ubertimmy is town (something I do not find unlikely), then your vote could easily have been the beginning of a wagon.

I don't consider it my job to make perfect cases so that the king may pick off all the scum one by one, because I'm not dilusional. I'm trying to contribute as best as I can and I will continue to point out what I believe to be scummy actions or players along the way, whether you like it or not.

I'm not seeing too much actual contribution from you. The only thing you've pointed out since Post 557 is a possible link between pablito and PJ.

You missed the part in Yos's post where he says he knows enough about where I stand on certain players. You also missed my somewhat reorganised PBPA. I think I've aired enough of my views.

Yup, I missed something.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote All

Vote specifically to execute: Mert

[Zindaras]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

[LuckayLuck]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

Truth
I tend to start adjusting after I actually get a feel for everybody. (Need to see more of Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz, and UberTimmy). I have no doubt that some mafia lie in my townie list, but I strongly doubt they are in the 9.5 and moderately doubt they are in the 9 list.

All I can really say is that you can't execute Pooky because he's just inactive (also in several other games, must have suddenly had something come up). And the MBL/Yos/Zind execution list make me twitch. I think it needs a radical change.

At this moment in time, if there was an execution, I would want it to be Mert. But while this day is dragging out, I still think it's super-important to have those "inactives" (or their replacements) post more.

[Glork]

That's a lot of townie feelings, Luckay. You can't even make an entire mafia out of the guys you suspect.

That shouldn't be a problem. I don't think anybody should expect to have found the entire mafia on Day Two.

[Glork]

EBWODP: Not in a large game, anyway. Minis can be a much different story.

[Zindaras]

Truth
I tend to start adjusting after I actually get a feel for everybody. (Need to see more of Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz, and UberTimmy). I have no doubt that some mafia lie in my townie list, but I strongly doubt they are in the 9.5 and moderately doubt they are in the 9 list.

All I can really say is that you can't execute Pooky because he's just inactive (also in several other games, must have suddenly had something come up). And the MBL/Yos/Zind execution list make me twitch. I think it needs a radical change.

At this moment in time, if there was an execution, I would want it to be Mert. But while this day is dragging out, I still think it's super-important to have those "inactives" (or their replacements) post more.

I'm not saying it's scummy or anything, I just find it a bit odd.

Though I do agree that Der Hammer, Pooky, Twomz and timmy need to contribute more.

Twomz has been posting in other games, if I'm correct. Why not here?

[bird1111]

As much as I hate to do this, I'm going to have to request replacement in this game, as I never got around to rereading this game, and now I'll have limited access this weekend/next week, and a 10 day vacation w/o internet soon after

[MrBuddyLee]

OK, so bird was just lynched as scum in Space Monkey Mafia. Though he experienced an epiphany in

this

game and decided he wanted to be a contributor, he did not have the same epiphany in Space Monkey. He pretty much got lynched for never posting jack, and for a little suspicious behavior too.

I find the dissonance odd, and am going to roll today with the working theory that bird got his shit together in this game and posted a MASSIVE post because his scumpartners asked him to.

He was nutkicked.

He is scum.

unvote everyone, vote: bird

[Glork]

Twomz has been posting in other games, if I'm correct. Why not here?

Actually, Twomz just got replaced in another game (Space Monkey Mafia).

[Zindaras]

I don't think bird's play in this game is at all comparable to bird's play in Space Monkey Mafia.

[MrBuddyLee]

Please elaborate, Z, that's an empty statement.

[Glork]

Jury's out on Bird, but I just might end up admitting that I was wrong. My brain is a little too frazzled to think about all this properly. In the meantime, I'm still waiting to hear from a lot of people.

[Zindaras]

*does a re-read on bird's posts*

bird's play in Space Monkey was voting someone, then trying to slip off the wagon without drawing attention. Looking at his posts early on, they're not completely uncomparable.

I'll admit his Day 1 behaviour is comparable, but I'm not sure if it actually says anything about his alignment.

[MrBuddyLee]

Well, I'm not saying it's anything definite either. But if his pattern across two games is to lurk and be unhelpful, but suddenly he posts a doozy at the start of today in THIS game, I'm comfortable with the hypothesis that he got nutkicked by his scumpartners overnight.

[petroleumjelly]

Although I don't think it is correct to talk about games which are not finished, I am actually getting the same impression. I am seeing two similarities in play:

1.) Bird1111 began both games with a vote, and immediately retracted them as silently as possible
2.) Bird1111 disappeared (and presumably went into lurking mode) as soon as the slightest bit of pressure was put on him for doing so

The difference lies in the fact that he has said things Day Two in this game. I don't think my vote will be moving off of him today, at this point.

[Ozymandius]

Regarding Ubertimmy,

by the way, is there any particular reason why his avatar is pretty much the same as shadowlurker's?

It's the other way around.

Why does this not surprise me... Sorry guys. I'm still working on reading. I'm doing what I can. It's the weekend though, and I may have some time soon finish reading and post.

[Yosarian2]

Although I don't think it is correct to talk about games which are not finished, I am actually getting the same impression. I am seeing two similarities in play:

1.) Bird1111 began both games with a vote, and immediately retracted them as silently as possible
2.) Bird1111 disappeared (and presumably went into lurking mode) as soon as the slightest bit of pressure was put on him for doing so

The difference lies in the fact that he has said things Day Two in this game. I don't think my vote will be moving off of him today, at this point.

So, I guess the question is, how does he act when he's town? Is that his standard playstyle, or is that his scum playstyle?

[Phoebus]

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, spectrum.

Yos -- so you'd rather get rid of me for being "unhelpful" and end a day randomly like that, rather than look at people who've been more blatantly lacking in townieness?

OK...

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) You've been unhelpful all game, and it's apparenlty not because you're not around because you have been posting. You've been both agressive and hostile at different times during the course of this game, which makes me think you have some emotional involvement in this game, and yet you haven't done anything that looks like an attempt to help the town, to find scum or defend someone you think isn't scum, to plan stratagy or suggest a course of action. Because of that, I'm suspicious of you; I think you care about this game, dispte your post-crash post that seemed designed to make us all think you're not at all interested in it, and yet you don't seem interested in doing anything that might help the town; the only time you've done anything at all was when you voted for people that were already being bandwagoned and/or attacked, and not once have you given any decent reason for it. The only significant things you've done at all today was to follow the bird wagon, and then later vote for me and pablito AFTER the king put us on his LOE because of "guts". So, yes, you are on my list of top suspects; you don't look like you're hunting scum to me, it looks more like you're following trends, Kings, and bandwagons without giving any of your own reasons.

As for your other comment:

rather than look at people who've been more blatantly lacking in townieness?

So, you think there are people who are "blatenlty lacking in townieness"? Who would that be? And, more to the point, if you think you've figured out that certain people you think are not acting like townies, why haven't you been attacking them? Or attacking anyone, for that matter? If you think that certain people have been "blatently lacking in townieness", then why would you say something like this?

Kill anyone. I don't care.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, now that the "display posts" function is back, I can isolate Mert's and spectrumvoid's posts, like I had wanted to do earlier.

Mert:

I’ve played a full game with Mert once before (in the now semi-infamous newbie game), and I am seeing a lot of similarities in his play. He is not afraid to go after connections or say things against the grain in general, and I think his views are definitely good for discussion in general. I want to keep him around, although I can’t really read him (I am thinking he would make awfully tricksy scum).

Rereading... first off, Mert definitely veered towards introducing theoretical discussion early in the game, which for me has slowly become a

slight

townie tell (I have noticed a pattern of townspeople introducing topics, and

then

scum trying to twist them).

Man, I'm starting to hate the woe is me approach to these things.

This (for me) was a direct reference to Newbie #254, the aforementioned newbie game I have played with Mert. For those who have not had the pleasure of reading, Fletcherscum tried the same tactic on Day One throughout the process of being lynched, and quite frankly, I don't much care for the "woe as me" response either. Mert's complaint rings true to me.

So we have MoS saying he won't vote, but his suspicions will be laid out in full and we should take note of his words rather than his voting pattern. Then, on the other hand, we have Phoebus saying he plays by gut and may not bother making cases against people, leaving only his votes to indicate his thoughts.

That's quite a tag-team.

As I noted before, Mert has no problem going after experienced players, such as MoS and Phoebus. The only minus points here is the fact that he didn't really pursue this line, but instead just mentions it seemingly off-hand.

Mert has demonstrated that he has read through Kingmaker I, by comparing cb0x to Random Acts. His responses to Glork's questions were fine by my eye...

And Mert doesn't seem to have posted very much throughout Day Two, but I think I am going to account that more to bad timing of how often Mafia Scum kept crashing and the amount of time Mert could give to the game.

So overall, I still find Mert to be fairly townie, although I do think he ought to post more of thoughts before today is through.

Now, on to spectrumvoid. I think I will split this in to two posts, though.

[petroleumjelly]

Spectrumvoid:

I don’t know exactly when SV made her posts this game in relation to mine, but wow, I am catching too many similarities between SV’s thoughts and my thoughts. I am thinking most of her reasoning in this game has come almost primarily from myself, which I find rather disturbing (this has happened to me with other players in other games, and it never fails to freak me out). She also seems to be slightly fawning (“I really should start learning from PJ”), although this could have been made in tandem from another game we were just in (Leper Mafia), where SV also mentioned that she had learned something about why longer days are better for towns (although she was scum in that game) due to my extending Day One in that game to roughly 30 pages.

I am actually thinking SV is being slightly scummish, or at the very least, too sheeplike. I will be taking this into consideration.

Wow. I really should start learning from PJ. In most games, after page 10 or so I usually make some big mistake. I finally went to read Kingmaker I, and I admire his analysis.

MMOS: Everyone is assumed to be protown until he/she does something that makes him look scummy. That's the way mafia works. Or else I could jsut go around randomly accusing anyone for the entire game. So the onus is on you to explain why he's scummy, not for me to show why he's town.

Argh... I didn't realise Fritz was here. He's on my blacklist of weird players.

This is more of a mental note to myself... two interesting things here. First, the compliment on my play, and second I am interested in since I want to compare what SV says to MoS, and then what SV says to LuckayLuck, who essentially "shows why people are town" instead of why people are scum. And, as I thought:

You find a very large number of people pro-town. I'm not saying I disagree with any specific person on your list, but a lot of how what you use to judge people on is based on your feelings. I agree with MBL on that you generally think people who post analytically are pro-town. But thanks for jumping in so quickly.

SV seems to take a lenient stance on LL when it comes to searching for townspeople, but a rougher stance on MoS for the same type of thing early-game. This is simply noted for a possible connection later, even though I don't really think LL is scum at this point in time.

I am still getting the feeling that at least through Day One, spectrumvoid was trying to appease me. SV has actually resisted Glork more than I remembered through Day Two (by openly voting for him, and disagreeing with a number of people on the LoE). I still get a slightly more scummish vibe from spectrumvoid than the average player, however, enough so that I think I will:

Vote: spectrumvoid

.

[Phoebus]

That was an invitation to meta-game Yos.

Go compare participation before drawing conclusions about being around or otherwise.
I post. I'm interested in this game because of the concept and the mod.
I am around enough not to need replacement but frankly don't care what happens today. As long as today ends.

And I really can't help it if you don't like my "guts" explanation. It has helped me in the past and I know what it is worth. Unfortunately, neither of us can be very objective about that.

My kill anyone stance has been driven by the apathy generated by the forum downtime.
I have gone on record to say that I subscribe to the bird nutkicking theory and that he should die. If His Highness, King Glork, is not convinced about bird's fishiness then he might just as well take random aim and shoot.

Get. This. Day. Over. With.