Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Glork]

Meh, maybe I'll answer a few more, since your post kind of irritated me. As I posted Fuldu's theory, I actually didn't go back to see how it played out, I just remembered that I found it a reasonable theory when I joined that game and read his posts. And I was n_lich, so I found Fuldu's point reasonable even though it wasn't accurate in my case. n_lich was confirmed town pretty early in that game, and I'll have to reread to see if your recollection is accurate that you encouraged your scumpartners to push that line of reasoning.

I still don't think the theory is legit. In Jelly Mafia, if you remember, I played flavor quite a while. Thok did, too. We were both pro-town. In Bond Villain Mafia, late duirng Day One, you made a comment about having Bond locked in your basement or something. You were playing flavor. You were pro-town. If you have

hard evidence

that scum are more mindful of flavor, please present it. Otherwise, I don't think you can say you have a valid argument. Because something

seems

to make intrinsic/inherent sense does not mean that it is correct. This kind of

a priori

reasoning simply does not work.

If Glork is not CONVINCED that somebody is scum, WHY would he insist on 'hammering' anybody!?

lol. He does it all the time. More specifically, I meant that he's very opinionated, and when he DOESN'T try to help drive things it's odd. Not that he was supposed to act berzerk. I just saw that he was present and not helping PJ make a final decision. It could be nothing, it could be scum not wanting to be seen helping their scumpartner, it could be scum happy with the direction the lynch is headed and deciding to lay low and eat popcorn while a pro-town king languishes. I dunno yet, obviously.

Actually, PJ is mostly right. I'd say about 70% of the time when I hardcore clamor for someone's lynch, it's because I am convinced that they are scum. Graduation, Newbie 254, CoOps, Lights Out, Cultural Revolution -- all of these are examples of games in which I was convinced that someone was scum and called for their lynch in an aggressive manner. About 25% of the time, it's early in Day One and I'm doing my usual "instigate some debate" bit. The other 5% is me blowing steam, either as town or as scum. So there ya go.

You did an OK job as king D1 but it wasn't the day a lot of us expected. You didn't browbeat scum and lurkers and drag things out into the open. I know you were very busy in real life, but I have to be honest, D1 was not vintage PJ. If you're trying a different strategy, that's fine, noted. But you knew it was significantly your job to get info to make your decision and you didn't get that info. And town got lynched.

I find this entire paragraph just horrible. You insinuate that the town as a whole

expected

PJ to find and execute a scumbag. I don't care who you are or what game you're in; finding scum D1 is not an easy chore. Period. I didn't "expect" PJ to find scum. I wouldn't have expected myself, Thok, MoS, Pooky, you, Yos, or

anybody

to find scum D1. I think that the better players have a better chance of finding scum, but I certainly don't expect it.
You accuse PJ of failing to get the info necessary for a scum lynch. I don't understand how this applies. PJ asked for help. He made people well aware of his execution list/thoughts. Every player was well aware of the deadline and of PJ's requests. It is not PJ's job to force people to get online and post. You simply cannot apply the same kind of pressure near deadline in a Kingmaker game that you could apply in other situations. What should PJ have done, start putting random lurkers on his LoE? Go seek out people IRL and demand that they get on MafiaScum and post? It's true that PJ lynched a townie. Ultimately, a good portion of that responsibility rests on PJ. (Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution -- especially if we're talking D1/D2 and we have less info to go on. I find that sentiment to be quite scummy, and I'll note that part of the push by scumbags against TSS -- something that ultimately lead to BroomheadScum executing TSS -- was because he lynched a townie D1.) But I think he did what he could given what he had to work with. Because really... he had very little, relatively speaking, with which to work.

And yes, I consider many players good players, MoS, CTD, Yos amongst them. Scum can't kill all the good ones N1, so obviously your presence amongst the living right now is not a scumtell. But YOU got kinged, Glork got kinged, and Pooky is an award-winner. I chose to name you three because you're high profile and die often and early as far as I know. I'd think scum would have feared a Glorking D2 and significantly considered offing him.

Eh... in all fairness, I consider Thok at least as good a player as myself or PJ. I would also guess that scum likely considered killing me overnight. But there are several ripe N1 targets, I feel. To say that skilled players are more likely to be scum just because they outlived other skilled players is, IMO, a little absurd.

[LuckayLuck]

Disclaimer: I don't know how MBL has played previously. I am comparing my thoughts this entire game as if everybody were generic people. I will describe some things that I personally view as townie-ish.

I don't think that MBL is scum because:

1) Even just glancing glancing at MBL's previous votes, he's been all over the place. I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it in the sense that he starts off with a list, later he UNVOTES ALL, goes for a new guy, and then he ends up going for others after that. And it's not even one of "following the trend." This is generally townie. If his playstyle as a townie is often revolutionary independent, this furthers the read that he is a townie.

2) This probably resonates most to me since I was directly in the line of fire of MBL.

[*]MrBuddyLee: my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.

MBL is reading "slightly townie" upon my read

I don't see that anything's happened in the interim other than Glork put me on his execution list. What's with the significant change of opinion, Luckay? This could be another example of what I pointed out, you trying to go with the flow so as to not piss off the King or other influential players.

Why is he accusing me, someone who I said is reading slight townie at that time (and now I think of him as moderate townie)? You COULD say this is a WIFOM argument, but generally, suspecting the guy who plans on defending you is strangely townie. I mean, he could try to get on my good side if he was mafia...

MBL's lines of attack and interaction lead me to believe that he is moderately townie.

[Glork]

1) MBL is pretty much all over the place all the time. I'd actually argue that he's less all-over-the-place with his actual, serious attacks. They seem quite focused, although that might just be the fact that PJ and I keep deflecting his attacks on us.

2) I don't think "attacking someone who thinks you're pro-town" is a townie tell at all. I've got Yosarian on my execution list. He thinks I'm pro-town. Does that make me pro-town, too? I could probably apply this logic to

several

other cases (heck... me/Pablito as well, off the top of my head). It occurs too often to call it a legitimate tell, IMHO.

[MrBuddyLee]

Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution

Funny, I don't remember saying that.

[petroleumjelly]

Concerning the Fuldu - N_Lich debate, check out my Post 1105, where I detail night discussion. Here are the relevant portions from Night One:

*Fuldu – May push lynch towards N_Lich for us (for saying assassin), and pushed RA pretty hard [keep alive]

...

*N_Lich – No role hints, but an easy lynching target, especially with Fuldu alive [keep alive]

...

Possible Lynching Targets (tomorrow):

-N_Lich (for saying assassin, hopefully Fuldu will lead the charge)

So, yeah... Jelly knows what he's talking about.

Why didn't you accuse me of defending MoS when I approved of his decision not to vote?

You're calling

me

selective? There is nothing wrong with supporting people you think to be pro-town, or supporting general ideas or theories. But trying to cast suspicion on people

without saying that's what you are doing

is something that definitely catches my eye. I do not see the comparison.

Also, concerning your "browbeating lurkers" comment, I don't really do that in large games anyways. Wheel of Time, Verbose II, Kingmaker 1, No Use For a Title, whatever you wish to look at... I

will

ask for prods (which I actually did do as King in this game), but I am not the sort of person to threaten lurkers by placing them on Execution lists, especially early in games.

Also, I am rather unnerved about your "if an experienced player lives near endgame, they are more likely to be scum" mentality. I have survived through quite a few games, as evidenced by statistics. For example, No Use For a Title (20 player game), despite the fact that I was a claimed Mason, I survived to endgame and ultimately helped lynch scum. In Wheel of Time Mafia (31 player game), where I had openly claimed Vigilante and had helped catch

multiple

scum and was in fact leading the town, I still survived to endgame. I also survived to endgame as a claimed Mason in Verbose II (another 20 player game).

Survival does not a scum make.

[Glork]

Note, I disagree with you that the King bears the sole burden of a missed execution

Funny, I don't remember saying that.

I think I read "significantly" as "solely." My bad.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i'd totally expect me to find scum

i'm a huge lucksack like that.

[Zindaras]

I'm at Page 19 right now, jumping out from my notes so far are Yosarian2 and Vaughn (now Der Hammer). I think they're quite scummy so far.

Have fun discussing this while I'm off. My reread will continue in the evening.

[Yosarian2]

And yes, I consider many players good players, MoS, CTD, Yos amongst them. Scum can't kill all the good ones N1, so obviously your presence amongst the living right now is not a scumtell. But YOU got kinged, Glork got kinged, and Pooky is an award-winner. I chose to name you three because you're high profile and die often and early as far as I know. I'd think scum would have feared a Glorking D2 and significantly considered offing him.

Eh... in all fairness, I consider Thok at least as good a player as myself or PJ. I would also guess that scum likely considered killing me overnight. But there are several ripe N1 targets, I feel. To say that skilled players are more likely to be scum just because they outlived other skilled players is, IMO, a little absurd.

Well, in all fairness, I think I've seen you get killed night 1 or night 2 more then anyone else lately, Glork.

Anyway, he made pretty clear that that he didn't consider you being alive right now as a scumtell. He was just saying that if high profile players are still alive later in the game to keep an eye on them.

Then again, that's still not always true. I did survive until quite late in the game in both Kingmaker 1 and Himalayan mafia, even though I seem to get killed night 1 in about half the games I'm in.

[Yosarian2]

I'm at Page 19 right now, jumping out from my notes so far are Yosarian2 and Vaughn (now Der Hammer). I think they're quite scummy so far.

Have fun discussing this while I'm off. My reread will continue in the evening.

I'm quite scummy? Care to expand on that one?

[Zindaras]

I'll expand on it later, I'm just interested to see how people react to them and I'll expand on them later.

[LuckayLuck]

2) I don't think "attacking someone who thinks you're pro-town" is a townie tell at all. [...] (heck... me/Pablito as well, off the top of my head). It occurs too often to call it a legitimate tell, IMHO.

The you/Pablito example is realllly good. I thought of you as slightly more likely as townie at that one, Pablito I thought of townie for some other reasons, that's why earlier I claimed that you're both townies.

MBL is a townie too!

It does occur too often to call it a legitimate tell, but...certain...context? timing? I'm not quite sure how to explain it yet, but under certain conditions, like you/pablito and MBL/me I think you and MBL are, at the very least, higher-than-average-townie because of those specific interactions.

[Glork]

Well, in all fairness, I think I've seen you get killed night 1 or night 2 more then anyone else lately, Glork.

People have this artificially high opinion of me. Also, if you take out Snakes on a Plane, where I was targeted like eight thousand times on N1, the numbers aren't particularly unusual.

But yes, I've been fragged early quite a bit as of late. Maybe someone noticed that and decided to let me live/play. Maybe someone thought that if I were kept alive, I'd go down the wrong paths. (Phoebus? CDB?) I don't know why I live. But then again, I don't always know why I die.

[Yosarian2]

..boy, this is rather embarassing. I had forgotten most of the details about this game in the 10 days the site was down, and when I did a re-read to answer Glork's question, I seem to have come to a completly different opinion then what I had thought before the crash, and I didn't re-read my own posts so I didn't even notice. I just went back to see who I was voting for, and it turns out I'm voting for one of the people I just said I thought was innocent.

unvote:pablito

I'm most suspicious of Twomz and Phoebus at this point.

[Zindaras]

I'd like to hear Glork's opinions on Yos and Der Hammer.

[pablito]

Hmm, that reminds me that I've forgotten that I was voting Yos too.

unvote: Yosarian2, vote: Dead Rikimaru

[Zindaras]

Reread has been finished. I've amassed 9 pages of Word file with just notes on what has happened, so there'll be a big post coming up soon.

[Zindaras]

Some posts that jumped out to me:

Restating my suspicions for the King's viewing pleasure:

Vote: PJ

, for lynching Rosso on extremely short notice and without giving him any time to defend himself. PJ defended himself against this accusation, but not to my satisfaction. I find it suspicious that PJ of all people waited for the very last second of the deadline to compose his final List of Execution (and the first one to mention Rosso at all) even if real life matters claimed most of his free time. Given his status as a player and his position as king yesterday, I would have expected him to take extra care to play as good as possible, but he didn't. In fact, the way he played it out (waiting for the deadline to hit in order to execute a townie "under pressure") is what I imagine to be a very viable strategy for a scum king.

Vote: StallingChamp

, for his one post of substance, which was unfortunately lost to the crash. In it, he complimented PJ on a good decision, while admitting a bit later that he has no idea why exactly Rosso was under so much scrutiny. Due to the circumstances, I can't prove that he really said that, but I suggest at least keeping an eye on him.

Vote: Twomz

. He was one of the people most blatantly hopping on the birdwagon, but that's not his only crime. Asked by me if he actually had any reason to vote for me apart from Fritzler demanding it, he used an especially insulting logical fallacy on me: Burden of Proof. Again, this has been lost in the crash, but I'm sure King Glork remembers it, seeing as he was the first to call the fallacy.

Vote: ubertimmy

, for extreme lurking.

I think that's it.

This voting seems odd.

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

...that's pretty much how I feel.

To reiterate my stance: I don't know if I think Bird is scum or not (though I'm leaning towards thinking no, at this point). What I do think is that, regardless of Bird's alignment, his behavior and the manner in which the wagon sprouted up (people going "yeah, I like that theory! VOTE: BIRD!") is so chic for scum to jump on. Bus the buddy or go for the momentum-wagon. Pooky and Twomz exemplified this attitude the most, so they're on my list.

MBL is on my list for question-evasion and pseudo-defenses of his theory without explaining what he thought was actually going on. Even more alarming to me was the fact that he presented the theory, defended its plausability, and said he was hoveing around 60% sure that Bird was a "nut-kicked" scumbag, but

never actually put a vote on Bird.

The siresns are so loud and ringing, I can hear them in my sleep. Even *NOW* after checking in, MBL votes for Timmy, Fritzler, and "everybody who is lurking" but still hasn't voiced his official support for a Birdlynch. Does

ANYBODY

else see this as more-than-slightly-odd?

I'm going to

Vote: Pooky, Twomz, MBL

and try to give the game a good re-read in the near future.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught up on MBL.

On MBL and Glork: I'm not getting MBL's case on Glork at all. It's ridiculous to expect a vote to be as important as it is in an ordinary game. However, votes are still important because they confirm a person's stand on someone. Votes should also preferably come with some kind of explanation. Note the case on Phoebus early yesterday, where he voted without explaining. With that said, I don't think MBL is right to assume that Glork sees only votes. I don't think I have a long playing history with Glork, but from some of his other games, I read him as a pretty analytical player. Also, there's no evidence to prove MBL's accusation in this game. I also think MBL is wrong to not take note of discrepancies, it could be a scum slip.

On Pooky: Hm... I thought it was obvious exactly what game Pooky was talking about. This IS the game we're playing after all.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

You seemed awfully wishy-washy in this post. Saying that you thought he didn't look good, but couldn't commit to such an inkling (even rejecting your own feelings by saying "I'm not sure if it's a scumtell") feels very uncharacteristic of you.

I think you misrepresented Yos here. He said
A: he can't get a good read on ph on the bandwagoning issue, because he's not sure if his bandwagoning is a scumtell.
C: he thinks phoebus not contributing to this game is 'more suspicious'.

This explains pretty clearly what Yos thinks of Phoebus, and why. I don't see how this makes him wishy-washy. And there's nothing wrong with not having a 100% confirmed stand on someone. (I got this from the 'not commiting' point.) For example, just look at what some people, myself included, think of bird and MBL's accusation (was it MBL?), especially the uncertainty involvled.

Take note of my sig addition.

For the blatant misreprentation,

vote: Glork

I know this is Kingmaker, but this makes it clear where I stand.

I think I'm the only one to have noticed this turnaround. I found it to be suspicious.

Rather odd to get prodded when you thought you were replaced.

Stupid crash.

And

King

Glork requested my presence? Pfft. I don't listen to

Peasant

Glork.

Anyway...I'll be talking to the mod about what he wants.

It was rather odd to get prodded when you thought you hadn't replaced, too.

Cool place to jump in. Alright, a little background about me: I will be pretty active. I am new to this site, and I don't know many of you. I'm somewhat savvy with Mafia as a whole, and I've already picked up on which one of you are the more famous ones on this board. :p

I read through day1 AFTER reading up on who got lynched / who got killed, so my analysis had the benefit of knowing that the two townies who died were. I read through day1 VERY carefully, marked down my thoughts on who I thought was mafia/townie. Took me about 2 hours. Day2 I somewhat skimmed, because so far it's been mostly people who I believe to be pretty solid townies posting huge blocks of text and quotes and going at each other. The one thing that stuck out to me mostly on Day2 is the failure of mourning / analysis for poor Thok, who I think was really going on the right track.


Unfortunately, obviously I missed day2's post-crash discussion from what I discern to be about bird mainly. Some people seem to be under fire for attacking bird during this crash period, but I think that attacking bird is 100% justified. I strongly disagree with his analysis of some of the people in this post:
Post 535 That, combined with what everyone else has generally been mentioning post-crash...poor defense, etc, is leading me to

vote bird1111

.

Anyways, I'm an outsider coming in, it should be fun hearing my thoughts in full and maybe getting an unique perspective. Here goes!

I figure starting with the particular opinions of mine that differ from bird's posts is best:

• Mastermind of Sin: bird made a slight accusation against MoS. In my notes, and maybe I only see this because I read all of Day1 through in a row and paid special attention to Mastermind saying "You might want to take notes on my posts," Mastermind of Sin has been making some of the most insightful posts. Some of the meanings can be ambigious if you don't really catch the context, but if one pays attention, it's really quite deep...Mastermind of Sin seems like very very townie with a good head in this game.
  
• MrBuddyLee: bird, like many people, have mentioned that MrBuddyLee is "hard to read." I suppose that's so, this is my first game with him, my read is that he is a strong insightful player, I am leaning strongly townie.
  
• Nightson: I loved his entrance into the game so much. It was different than mainstream opinion, and very very correct. It struck my townie chord. Post 323
  
• Pablito: You are THE MAN. I love your style of play. It makes you easily targetted, and you WERE easily targetted, but I'm feeling heavy townie vibes. Very very very strong townie vibes. Someday in the future, those who were on Pablito trains...those who took the easy route...will be analyzed. Someday.
  
• petroleumjelly: I think you did really well as the king. I would not have chosen to execute Rosso Carne, however. (Easy of me to say since that's in the past, but I actually have "the honor" of having Rosso Carne as the inexperienced challenged guy in one of my newbie games ><). I think that your reign as king really was one of a townie.

More to follow about the other guys, and my feelings on peteroleumjelly's big analysis from post 516. I'll address what I agree with him on, and what I disagree with him on.

This post jumped out to me as having a townie vibe, but I wanted to add that I'm glad you seem to be enjoying yourself.

While I think Thok is never a bad pick for scum to execute N1, I'll note that the longer Glork, PJ and Pooky are left around the closer they should be watched. Glork in particular is a prime N1 scum target. Particularly in a game where it'd make sense to off someone who'd make an excellent pro-town king.

Scum could be playing WIFOM games. They could lynch ubertimmy tomorrow to make us wonder why the good scumhunters aren't being lynched. But if I die tonight or soon, keep in mind that the longer the "good" players, the ones who'd make good kings, remain alive, the more closely they should be watched.

"Scum could be playing WIFOM games."

I like how the first paragraph is a WIFOM game, in my eyes.

[Zindaras]

Unfortunately, a Player-by-Player analysis will have to wait till tomorrow, it's too late for me now.

[Glork]

I'd like to hear Glork's opinions on Yos and Der Hammer.

You should know my thoughts on Yos. He's on my execution list; I am definitely leaning towards him being scum right now.

Der Hammer has prety much slipped by me completely. I have no idea what I think of him right now. Alas, I'm going out for the night; but I'll look over his posts and give some thoughts on Sunday.

[Zindaras]

I had not yet read up to the point where other people were suspicious of Yos as well, so that's okay. I'm working on my notes to make them more easily browsable, and I'll post my full opinions after that (and after I respond to other Mafias).

[Zindaras]

Opinion time!

Please note that all of the following opinions were made with help of my notes. If there is a factual error, please point it out.

bird111

: He gave off a scumvibe in Post 88, which a lot of people jumped on. He posted suspicions against Glork, Pablito Day 1 and suspicions against Mert, Phoebus, Twomz, Pooky and Yos Day 2. People who found him suspicious were PJ, CTD, Mert, cbox and Thok Day 1 and Pablito, MBL, Phoebus, PJ and LL Day 2.

I think he's town currently.

cardb0ardb0x

: I got a scummy vibe from Post 58, which again was jumped on by a lot of people. He posted suspicions against pablito, MBL, Rosso, Glork, bird, Phoebus and pablito Day 1 and suspicions against Riki, Fritz and PJ Day 2. People who found him suspicious were MBL, PJ, Twomz, SC, Rosso, spectrumvoid, LL, Mert and ubertimmy Day 1.

I think he's bad town currently, though I'm not really liking how he's been flying a bit under the radar lately (only 3 entries so far Day 2).

CrashTextDummie

: Now it gets interesting. CTD started off with a good feeling towards cbox and a scummy feeling towards bird. Fritz went guano against him, after which Twomz vote him as well to satiate Fritz. He got town vibes from PJ, cbox and Glork and was suspicious of bird and ubertimmy. MBL had him on an execution list with Rosso and Twomz. Pablito was suspicious of him. Day 2 he voted PJ, SC, Twomz and timmy, which gave me a very scummy vibe (Post 557), especially since he had stated to have been getting town vibes from PJ earlier. Pablito later voted and unvoted him. He also agreed with MBL's theory linking PJ and pablito together.

I think he's quite scummy. Post 557 contained some votes that struck me as very scummy, and he has a minor link with MBL.

Dead Rikimaru

: Not a lot on this guy. In fact, I can just put all my notes regarding him here:
Pablito votes MBL and says Dead Rikimaru may have planted suspicion regarding Pablito-Glork.
Thok unvotes pablito, bird, Dead Rikimaru and Nightson and votes MoS.
PJ executes Rosso. (this is put in every section of my notes to keep days apart)
Riki votes pablito.
Cbox doesn't like Riki's lurking, Fritz's playstyle and PJ's execution style.

This isn't useful at all. I want more entries here.

Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)

: Again, someone with very little information on him. My first entry in the notes is that he attacked Thok for defending PJ. Thok was extremely suspicious of Vaughn and wanted him lynched badly. There are no entries Day 2. I don't have a lot of entries where Vaughn/Der Hammer actually attacks or defends anyone either.

Fritzler

: I hate people who play like crap intentionally. But I'll admit that there are some interesting entries into my log here. He started off going guano against CTD and Twomz supported him. Thok had a vote on him for a while, and Glork stated him as being pro-town. Now, Day 2, we had votes on Fritz by MBL and SC. I can see people trying to defend CTD against Fritz. I'm leaning to town currently, but he really can be anything.

*King Glork*

: I have over a page of notes on him. I've had a scum vibe from his Post 244 and a Town vibe from his interaction with Mert, Post 346 and before. He "attacked" PJ early on, which I didn't like, but he stopped when PJ asked him to.
Now, as for his opinions, here's an entry from Day 1:
Glork states:
-Fritzler pro-town.
-cbox pro-town.
-MBL scummy, but not scum.
-MoS is a moron.
-Thok doesn't sit well.
-Yos is pro-town.
-PJ is definitely pro-town.
-Rosso is scummy.
-Placeholder votes CTD.

He puts two townies as scummy/not sitting well. He has Yos as Town, and really seems to be suspicious of only MBL of people who are still alive. He stated he couldn't get a read on Vaughn. Day 2 I've been liking his posts somewhat more. I put an agree vibe on Post 566, in which he voted Twomz, Pooky and MBL. MBL attacked him, and tried to create links between him, pablito and PJ. Glork attacked Yos, who defended himself awkwardly against him. His LoE is Pooky, Pablito, MBL and Yos.

I'm usually quite good at reading Glork, but he's way out there this game. I've got conflicting vibes from him. I know he pulls crazy stuff like what he did early game as town as well as scum, so that's not very useful. What is currently decisive for my opinion on him are the people who are attacking him. I don't trust MBL at all.

LuckayLuck (rep. Ameliaslay)

: This is a conflicting one. Thok voted Amelia Day 1. Amelia proceeded to FoS cbox. Thok noted Glork's defense of Amelia (if Amelia is scum, this is definitely something to remember). Amelia voted Phoebus Post 242, which gave off a scum vibe to me. Amelia attacked Nightson later on, which made Thok suspicious. LL came in Day Two and immediately gave off a Town vibe in Post 688, even though I very much disliked how (s)he said MoS, MBL, Nightson, pablito and PJ are all town, and only put bird (and later timmy) as scum. (S)he also weakened off MBL's townieness later on. Personally, I can see hir (I need to know a gender) as both scum and town currently. If (s)he's scum, I will be looking at MBL (because (s)he stated him as very much town early on and then weakened it off when it turned out MBL was under suspicion) and Glork (see Thok interaction Day 1). (S)he's not a major suspect right now, though.

Mastermind of Sin

: Was attacked by Twomz, Mert, Yos, Thok, MBL (minorly) and SC. Buddied up to Phoebus. Looking at who attacked him and the vibes he's been giving off, I think he's town, currently. But first, I want him to tell why he put Thok, ubertimmy and Yos on his execution list Day 1.

Mert

: Voted bird and MoS early on. Yos defended him. He also made an attack on cbox, stating that PJ shouldn't think he's town just because he reminds him of a townie in the original Kingmaker. Glork noted MBL's linking of him to Mert. He voted Twomz and Pooky Day 2.

I'm definitely getting scum vibes from him. Bird, MoS and cbox I think are town, and I'm leaning to town on both Twomz and Pooky. Yos defended him, and MBL tried to link him to Glork (possibly to get Glork lynched after Mert's lynch). I also don't like the way he's playing this game. He seems to not really be contributing a lot.

MrBuddyLee

: I actually have a Town vibe listed from Post 171, but that was really all. I don't like how he's playing. At all. He attacked pablito, timmy, SC, cbox and Glork early on, then said pablito, Phoebus and MoS were being awkward, then made a list of execution containing Rosso, Twomz and CTD. Day 2 he voted Fritz and timmy.

He's posted strange stuff all game. He stated pablito was suspicious for changing a vote to a FoS. He tried to link Mert to Glork. He brought up the nutty nuts-theory. He tried to link PJ, pablito and Glork. He stated that PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died, not Thok. I also noticed a lack of interaction between him and Yos, which could be construed as distancing. I definitely think he's scum right now.

Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)

: Unfortunately, there is very little information to be found about Nightson. He was suspicious of pablito and Phoebus Day 1, and was attacked by Amelia and pablito, and was defended by Thok. Nightson voted Twomz Day 2, and appeared rather strangely on LL's Town list. He also stated he thinks PJ, Glork and MBL are all town.

I can see him as scum, but, to be honest, there's nothing that warrants that right now.

Pablito

: I had a scum vibe from Post 318 and a town vibe from Post 394. MBL attacked him early on. Cbox, Thok and Yos also attacked him. MBL attacked him for changing a vote to a FoS. He attacked CDB/SC over very tentative reasoning. Day Two he voted timmy, CTD (unvoted later), Yos, bird (unvoted later), SC and Mert. He was attacked by Glork, Riki, Phoebus, Yos, MBL and CTD, most of which I can see as scum. Interestingly enough, Yos and MBL were numbers 4 and 5 here.

To be honest, pablito's been all over the map. His voting behaviour can be of any alignment, but I'm leaning to town due to Yos/MBL attacking him.

petroleumjelly

: I got a town vibe from his Post 57. I put the fact that he kept referring to himself as "town and not scum like last Kingmaker" as a random note to keep in mind, but MBL jumped on that. CTD, cbox and MBL attacked him Day 2.

I will be extremely surprised if he's scum. I haven't played in another game with him yet, so I have nothing to compare his play to, but his Day 1 play just screamed town to me. I'm not really overjoyed by him fading away from the spotlights Day 2. I would definitely like to hear some more from him.

Phoebus

: Though his posts weren't exactly stellar Day 1, I can definitely see a scum-driven wagon right there. He's been on pablito, Yos and bird Day 2.

I'm not very comfortable with the way the wagon on him has developed. MoS is his buddy, though Phoebus hasn't responded to MoS at all. My guess right now would be town.

PookyTheMagicalBear

: Has been very passive all game. The only two entries in which he was active in my log was one where he (jokingly) attacks Rosso/ShadowLurker and one where he attacks Glork and states PJ is the best King.

His lurking annoys me. I'm under the impression that Pooky is a good player, so I would expect more of him. Looking at the people who have attacked him Day 2, I've listed Glork, Mert, PJ, Bird and SC. He's possible scum, but I'm not ruling out the possibility of him being town.

spectrumvoid

: I have lots of scum vibes from him. Post 385 (if pablito's town), Post 561 and I also got scum vibes from her flip-flopping on Glork. The entry for that is this:

Spectrumvoid doesn't get MBL's case on Glork.
Spectrumvoid votes Glork.
Vibe: Spectrumvoid scum, completely switches opinions on Glork
Spectrumvoid unvotes Glork.

She made a late attack on cbox and refused to cut him slack.

I'm getting the feeling she's trying to stay on the Kings' good side (she's been friendly towards both Glork and PJ). She hasn't attacked a lot of people during the game, and didn't deliver opinions regarding people under heavy suspicion. I definitely think she's scum.

StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)

: Was found scummy by MBL (quite a bit, actually) and Pablito Day 1. Day 2, CTD voted him, which was later jumped on by spectrumvoid. Pablito later voted him as well. SC votes Fritz, Pooky and MoS.

I'm a bit conflicted about this. I don't really like the last entry in my log (voting Fritz, Pooky and MoS), but I definitely think scum may be looking to lynch him (as evidenced by attacks on him by MBL, CTD and spectrumvoid). I'd put him as town right now, though that may change.

Twomz

: My memory's telling me that he was more active in other games we've played in together, but I'm not sure. He attacked MoS, cbox, CTD and Phoebus over the course of the game. MoS countered his attack. MBL put him on his LoE Day 1. Day 2 he apparently jumped on the birdwagon which I do find suspicious.

I can't say anything about his behaviour regarding the birdwagon. I don't like how MBL, who I think is scum, put him on his LoE. I'm leaning to town right now, but he could be scum.

UberTimmy

: Voted MBL and spectrumvoid early on and was suspicious of cbox. Agreed with MoS about PJ. Was attacked by pablito, MoS, CTD, MBL, spectrumvoid, PJ and LL over the course of the game.

I'm going out on a limb here and say ubertimmy's town. This is an impression that could change, but I just think he's town.

Yosarian2

: Another interesting case. I had three scum vibes from him, from Posts 189, 376 and 426. He defended Mert and attacked MoS. He FoSed pablito. He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself). He voted Phoebus. Though Glork stated he thought Yos was pro-town Day 1, he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly. He voted Twomz and pablito.

I was suspicious of Yos all reread, and I'm happy to see others picked up on it, even though they did it much later than I did. I've played with Yos before in Reverse Mafia (Mini 370) and his play style seems to be different from that game (in which he was town). I definitely think he's scum.

Zindaras:

Welcome to the game. Help your ol' buddy Glorky out and tell him who the dirty scumbaggos are.

Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, Mert, spectrumvoid, CrashTextDummie. Happy executing.

[Zindaras]

Oh, yes, let's vote, too.

Vote: Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, Mert, spectrumvoid, CrashTextDummie

.

[pablito]

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two. I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either. I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him. And me, I deserve to be up there for my erratic game play.

I think that Mert is a strong suspect and should be given a second look.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

[pablito]

hmmm...and right now I'm going to cautiously

vote: spectrumvoid

as well. I can't find anything particularly uber-scummy, but on a quick re-read on spectrum's recent posts, I'm not getting good vibes from her.

Before my long winded re-read on six players, I mentioned that I was vaguely suspecting spectrumvoid and she responded with a trite and persnickety post how she was anxiously awaiting my long post so that she would have something to reply to. Since then she has not acknowledged that long post.

And I still can't get over how she voted Glork and how she's interacted with Glork. To me, voting and then quickly unvoting Glork may have been a way to show "hey guys look at me, I'm so independent in thought that I'm going to express that I think the king is scum! ha, you guys all think he's out of whack, but I'm going to actually vote him! look at me!" then "whoa, I don't want to anger him too much that he actually executes me so I'll quickly unvote". But while the vote the king dance move has been done before, it's never been done in that fashion. It felt artificial rather than natural and it felt so different. But most of all, I didn't see significant buildup toward that point. when others have done it they have followed through and they were obviously coming to that point. With spectrum, I felt it had no logistic progression.