Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[Crazy]

I haven't played with Furry before. I think the only people I've played with are Empking and Ranmaru, and I think iamasuername a long time ago. (??)

I'm also struggling to figure out why you asked that question. What were you planning on doing with the results to your survey?

VOTE: Amrun

(Seconding Empking's question here.)

[Crazy]

Oh, and I modded a game that Hiraki played in. I think that's it for my meta here.

[Crazy]

I changed my vote because RVS wagons are fun.

Not the question. Why did you do it in a "P-edit" instead of just deleting out the vote for Ameliaslay?

[Crazy]

VOTE: Ranmaru

Not really a first post I'd expect from you... I thought you'd come out guns blazing, especially with all this NK-WIFOM talk. What's up?

@Amrun - A-ight, I can believe the cell phone thing. UNVOTE: Amrun

[Crazy]

^Ellibereth, you never answered my question? What were you hoping to gain from the whole "

OMG, who knew Furry?

" discussion? Just because one person didn't know Furry didn't mean that their hypothetical scum-partners didn't, and just because Furry was killed doesn't necessarily even mean that

any

of the scum-team had played with him before. As I saw it then, what you did was either a lame attempt at spreading suspicion or a lame attempt at doing something useful. I gave you a chance to justify yourself, and yet all you did was ignore my question and follow the bandwagon on me with nothing else to say.

I understand the purposes of bandwagoning to lead to discussion, but how am I to respond to a single vote with no reasoning?

[Crazy]

@Crazy: Since when have you put yourself on invisible?

One of our previous games together. Not to be mean, but the "Hi, Crazy, I see you're online, can you post now?" got a little tiring.

@Crazy: You generally approve of wifom. Why do you speak out against it here? What has made you do this in the span of time between our newb and this game?

I should ask the same question of you. I thought you

hated

WIFOM.

As for me, the WIFOM factor here isn't what bugs me, though I expected it to bug you. I just thought the whole line of thought Ellibereth was going down was stupid and pointless.

[Crazy]

Well I don't like it if you try to clear yourself with wifom. Speculation about wifom is fine, it's just speculation. If someone uses it to frame someone else, I will find that suspicious.

This seems to be a much looser stance than you've had in the past. Has your opinion changed?

[Crazy]

I'm not sure about Ranmaru yet.
With Ellibereth either I'm being a complete moron and missing something obvious or he's spouting complete bull crap.
Imaginality is in my Top 3 for sure, but he needs to post some more first, and I don't want to explain why he's scummy NOW because I don't want to upset his natural play.
Empking is doing what he does. I can't say I have anything more than a null-tell at the moment.

[Crazy]

Crazy's second sentence was counter-productive because, supposing Ellibereth had a good reason for asking the question, it would be rendered pointless by revealing how he intends to interpret the answers, since anyone answering after that point would know what he's looking for. Better would have been to let Ellibereth garner his answers, and then jump on him if he failed to do anything useful with them at that point.

This smells like crap. Ellibereth's question had either a yes or no answer. My calling him out on it wouldn't affect anyone's answers. Please explain.

This contrasts with your less laissez-faire approach in the case of Ellibereth's question (presumably also part of his 'natural play'). Why the difference?

Different situation. My suspicion of Ellibereth was based on a specific thing he said. My suspicion of you was based on a general feeling. If I told you why I didn't like your post, then you'd be able to change the way you post. Bleh.

[Crazy]

UNVOTE: Ranmaru

My reason for suspecting him was mainly what I saw as a clash of meta, but that's gone now, so meh. He's fine for now.

VOTE: smallpeoples343

Small, why didn't you mention anything that happened in the thread, at all? Was your vote for Pom related to the wagon already on him?

[Crazy]

My other vote will go towards imaginality/Ellibereth at some point, unless they can convince me that the question "Who knew Furry?" actually did have some potently awesome scum-hunting power behind it.

[Crazy]

Apologies for my laziness. Reading up on the thread right now.

[Crazy]

All right, time to catch up here.

Firstly, UNVOTE: Smalls. My vote for Smalls was based on what I perceived to be a breadcrumb from LK in Post #32. I thought LK was a power role that got some sort of guilty result on Smalls N0. Apparently it wasn't, oops. Apart from that, Smalls' reaction to his wagon gives a slight newb-town vibe for me at first glance. I will look more in on this issue later.

As for my "overreacting" to Ellibereth's question about "who knew Furry," I still stand by that. Look at Ellibereth's posts. Has he even pressed on that issue at all? Has he called out the people that never answered his question? Has he made any analysis based off of people's answers. Why? Because the question

was

indeed largely pointless, and Ellibereth

was indeed

just spouting hot air.

VOTE: Ellibereth

So, Ellibereth, tell me why you asked the question in the first place and then never followed up on it? Was my prediction that it wouldn't lead to any great analysis correct?

My suspicion of imaginality, which I was delaying, was that his first post just had a large degree of passiveness to it. His two votes were both for mild reasons, he asked no questions, and really didn't express any degree of assertiveness over his suspicions, just a "That's scummy. Vote: Scummy person." His second post was even worse, since it was a load of air that accomplished nothing. His third post was the same thing and then he pinned an uncontroversial vote on Ameliaslay.

So yeah, imaginality just really isn't stepping off the sidelines at this point, and I take that to be a general scum-tell.

VOTE: imaginality

Imaginality, you also need to answer my question in my Post #56.

***
,
Sorry for coming in and throwing two votes on non-leading wagons. I've read Hiraki's "scum-slip" thing a couple times but I still don't have a grasp on it. I will have to look more into that.

[Crazy]

Hiraki smells a little bit like scum defending a mislynch for towncred.

Assuming Smalls was to flip town, what makes Hiraki more likely to be scum defending that wagon instead of town defending that wagon?

[Crazy]

@Crazy: Could you please explain how Ran demonstrated a lack of cog-dis on Eli's "NK WIFOM" because I didn't understand what brought you to conclude that?

Just meta. He's spoken strongly against me in a previous game when I used what he saw as "WIFOM." So meta discussion + Ran not freaking out = WTF. But he gave a link showing he changed his views slightly so meh.

At this point, it's hard to see Ran as scum, but then it's pretty hard to

ever

see him as scum. I dunno, but Ran's a tough one to read, but at the moment it's an obligatory town read unless I find something that's specifically scummy.

@Ellibereth - Yeah, I saw that post before. That doesn't explain why you never followed through on anything about your question, though. If one of the scum modded or played with Furry before, then what does that mean as to who's scum? When I first saw your question, I saw it going one of two ways:

a. You'd limit your lynch pool to anyone who'd played with Furry before.
b. You'd totally ignore the answers to your questions.

You ended up picking "B." Did you not? Explain. Also explain that if you cared so much about your question, why you haven't been bugging the people that didn't answer to answer.

Vote: Crazy. His insistence on tearing down Ellibereth based solely on the Furry question is really meh to me especially considering that I supported Elli in it and he never called me out along with Elli.

Lol, I never noticed that you supported Elli.

Anyway, looking back on your relevant posts, I do understand what you're saying, and I think it is somewhat reasonable to think that one of the scum probably knew Furry - providing that Ellibereth didn't manipulate this situation himself by killing Furry, which was another one of my worries with the original question.

At least you're not arguing like imaginality is, "Oh, what Crazy did was disingenuous and counter-productive." Pff.

***

On another point, I don't get the Hiraki case at the moment. IAAU's case against him seems based entirely on IAAU thinking he said "3/3" when in fact he said "2/3." LK's case brings up silly points like the "N0 or N1" thing. LK is my strongest town read, though, due to his thing with Smalls, so I'm almost positive his intentions here aren't malicious.

@IAAU - I believe your case against Hiraki was based entirely off of your mistake when you thought he said "3/3" when he really said "2/3." Did you realize this? If so, then why are you still voting him?

[Crazy]

Also, kunkstar, can you explain why me voting Imaginality but not you would be indicative of me being scum? I mean, I could understand scum might be hypocritical in regards to their own scum-partners, but how is me being hypocritical in favor of you scummy from

your own

perspective, since you should know yourself to be town.

[Crazy]

Sorry for my activity in this game... it turned out it's hard for me to be as active as I usually am. I'll probably be able to post tonight.

[Crazy]

Okay, so sorry again for my activity, guys. People who know me know that I like to post frequently, but stuff is coming up in my life (some important, some not-so-important), so I'm having a little trouble getting both the time and motivation to post. To be honest, I probably shouldn't have signed up for this game in the first place. But I can still honor my commitment here, and I'll try my best to post as much as I can. I hope people don't take it that I'm strategically lurking, since that's never been my general strategy in any past game, since I think it's generally ineffective, especially on Day 1.

So, disclaimer over. Let's get to the game.

Hiraki's been at L-1 for a while. Looking back at his posts, I do understand where IAAU was coming from. I got mixed up on the order of posts before (looking at ISO's) and thought IAAU brought up the 3/3 thing, but I now see Hiraki came up with it first, out of nowhere.

IAAU is right; it's practically impossible to miscount the number of your scum-reads on a wagon, if you know who your scum-reads are. So Hiraki

did

forget his scum-reads. And while it wouldn't be entirely impossible for a townie to forget his scum-reads, it's much more likely for scum to forget who he was "supposed" to suspect. So yeah, major point against Hiraki here.

Ellibereth's soft-claim annoys me, since I think he could have avoided that. But meh, no going back now. I'm not going to argue for a lynch on a semi-claimed power role Day 1. Ugh.

UNVOTE: Ellibereth

He's still scummy though. I called out his "Who knew Furry" as useless fodder from the beginning. And what do you know, he never followed up on it!

He never explained why not, either. *nudge*

[Crazy]

Yikes at WLC's ISO - first time I looked at it. As I see it, his current two votes are on:

-Kunkstar for not voting in his first post.
-Amrun for a slew of reasons that aren't really scummy at all.

My first votes were based on only few pages of evidence, but I found someone p-editing their first vote quite strange, even with the 'mobile posting' explanation. Then she votes Crazy and Pomegranate without reasons. Presumably to create wagons, which I find dangerous when it's only 8 to lynch and everyone has two votes. Sure they were only at L-4 at that point, but we were only on second page.
Then, when I voted her based on above reasons (at least the editing post and joining Crazy's wagon), she directly responded with what I consider an OMGUS-vote. When I ask what kind of vote it was, she responded saying I was scum. Period. No reason. Just like all of her votes, except maybe her Hiraki-vote. The real fun part comes where she asks Pom for the reason voting me, while Amrun hasn't given any yet. Except for that I'm scum because I'm scum.

The "P-edit" thing wasn't really that scummy to begin with.

LOL at how putting someone at L-4 is dangerous. What, like four people are going to quickly jump in and hammer them?

OMGUS isn't a scum-tell, and in fact, in an earlier post, WRC said that it tended to be a town-tell! (in reference to Hiraki)

I think smalls has a point, you calling everyone voting you scummy, but I do feel that's kind of a towntell.

As for not giving a reason to a vote, that's mainly just an annoying playstyle quirk rather than scummy.

I'd really like him to come here and explain how any of his points against Amrun are actually scummy, as well as explain why his other vote is still on kunkstar for reasons that expired a long time ago.

VOTE: WLC

Hiraki isn't a horrible lynch, but WLC is better. Imaginality is doing a little better in general, but this line is horrible:

...eh. I'm okay with hammering Hiraki if we get closer to deadline, or if he continues to delay his claim rather than either claim or point-blank refuse to. But I'd rather a Pom or Crazy (see below) lynch.

This reads like "Let's get Hiraki to claim then lynch someone elses!"

[Crazy]

@kunkstar - Can you answer my question from earlier?

Also, kunkstar, can you explain why me voting Imaginality but not you would be indicative of me being scum? I mean, I could understand scum might be hypocritical in regards to their own scum-partners, but how is me being hypocritical in favor of you scummy from your own perspective, since you should know yourself to be town.

[Crazy]

Smalls, is your suspicion of me and Ranmaru really based entirely off of LK suspecting us? How is that to convince the rest of us?

But VOTE: WLC for the same reasons as yesterday, and there's a good chance my vote will stay there the rest of the day.

[Crazy]

Ugh, I feel like a broken record here, but I'll make sure to post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

My internet was down all day. Reading up now.

[Crazy]

Okay, screw this Pom wagon. My only read on her is of someone that obviously didn't have enough time to devote to this game,

especially

since she ended up requesting replacement. If she happens to be scum, then it's by

luck

. I see no particular reason to lynch her now, before her replacement comes in, at least.

WLC is much, much, scummier. His Day 1 play was just voting Amrun for nonsense reasons (see my earlier post from late Day 1), voting kunkstar for not voting in his first post (valid, but weak), and then just filler posts for the rest of the day. He didn't scum-hunt, he didn't press his reads, and he didn't really comment on any of the major wagons.

On Day 2, all he did was dump his questionable Amrun read for an easy Smalls vote. He never responded to the wagon on himself or came up with any decent reads. I suppose he probably will try

soon

, but I doubt anything he will say will change my mind at this point. In some cases, I think it's far more telling to see what a player does when they're

not

under pressure.

If there's anything I want to hear from WLC, it's an

explanation of how his case on Amrun made any sense

.

I'm not going to use my second vote because I don't want to give any implication that there's anyone that I want to lynch today except for WLC.

[Crazy]

@Ranmaru

- I don't quite understand why you're so aggressively against Pom all of a sudden. Did I miss something?

[Crazy]

Or perhaps the better question is why specifically Pom instead of WLC?

Same question to @kunkstar, since you're the only other person voting Pom that isn't also voting WLC. I guess I can sort of understand voting

both

of them, but it's hard for me to see how Pom is

worse

than WLC.

[Crazy]

DGB

not

voting for WLC upon replacing in most likely either means that she's town or they're scum together, and the latter is far less likely just because of probability. If WLC flips scum, I'll consider it, then. But DGB scum/WLC town makes VERY little sense.

To you disagreers - tell me why you disagree with this.

If you were scum replacing in Pom's position, could you possibly see yourself

not

voting for WLC?

I like post 697. I don't really understand why people are giving WLC such a hard time.

Really...? Does it not bother you that Post #697 is his first decent post in this game?

[Crazy]

Thunderstorms in my area have affected my internet access the past few days. But you guys lynched the same person I wanted lynched, so that's fine.

[Crazy]

You wanted Pom/DGB lynched?

Me? I wanted WLC lynched. And he was, right?

[Crazy]

Ugh, I'll save this crap for tomorrow, but I hate how Ranmaru is already assuming that WLC is going to flip town and already setting up an easy Kunkstar lynch for tomorrow.

Blah, I dunno. I have to reread Kunkstar's stuff. I think his quickhammer is inexcusable, but our goal isn't to punish bad play, here.

@Ranmaru - In Open 300, Fate hammered Sudo Day 1 without a claim. If he hadn't have been NKed, would you have unconditionally lynched him the next day? I understand that there's more to your Kunkstar suspicion than just the hammer, but I can't understand how you're pushing this "OMG HE CLAIMED SCUM" stuff.

[Crazy]

Ranmaru, when Fate suggested hammering DH without a claim, all you did was say "Uh, no, we should always make sure to get a claim before we lynch somebody." In this game, on the other hand, you're going "OMG KUNKSTAR IS SCUM DIE DIE DIE." Why the difference?

Not that I excuse Kunkstar's actions, but that's for post-game discussion crap. It's horrible play, but I don't think his hammering was necessarily a scum-tell. If anything, it's a slight

town

-tell, since it drew unnecessary focus towards him. And no, this isn't WIFOM, since there is no way that Kunkstar could imagine that I'd say that.

Post #845 is also one of the most absurd examples of reaching I've ever seen.

Everyone look at this, please

.

[Crazy]

Lol, I get that all the time. Every time I blast someone for making a stupid argument against X, then "OMG, Crazy must be X's partner!" Seriously, this isn't even the first time that happened in

this game

. Wasn't I supposed to be Hiraki's partner, too?

My attention here really isn't toward defending Kunkstar, though - there are actually many worse people to lynch (like the horrible Pom wagon, but I'll get to that). My issue is that you look like scum setting up an easy lynch for tomorrow. Kunkstar

is

an easy lynch, and if I was scum, you can bet I'd be down his throat like crazy. What matters here is that your attacks on him are... very bad. You're saying so much that he "claimed scum" by his quickhammer, even though you've personally seen town quickhammer like that before (Fate in Open 300). Your other main issue with him is that he didn't specify who he was unvoting when he hammered WLC. I mean, seriously? You can check his posts - he was voting Pom and me before that.

Another thing is that you got on his case immediately, even before WLC's flip. That implies to me that you

knew

that WLC would flip town. You had been saying all day that you wanted one of Pom/WLC to get lynched, and yet you never considered that Kunkstar could have hammered scum. Instead of a normal reaction, like, "Ugh, I can't believe Kunk just hammered without a claim, but I hope he's right," you went all "OMG KUNKSTAR JUST CLAIMED SCUMZZZ!!!"

Oh, and what else? This isn't the first time you've done this! You were on Pom's butt for not contributing, fair enough, but when Pom replaced out, you didn't think that justified the inactivity? She replaced out because she didn't have time for the game, right...?

Check out these quotes, people (posts 662-664):

She

[Pom]

only felt the need to replace out when a wagon was looming over her. Thoughts?

I don't like making assumptions based on timing of replacement requests; I think it's fairer to assume it's a null tell. I think if I remember correctly there was an MD thread about this, I'll try to find the link.

Oh I see. Well I guess it being null wouldn't absolve the slot of being scummy, but let's see what the replacement has to say then.

My paraphrase:

Ranmaru: Hey, I wonder if I can make Pom look scummy for replacing out!
imaginality: No, you can't.
Ranmaru: Oh, well.

But Pom is still scum!!!

In all seriousness, you generally don't

ask

somebody whether something is scummy or not, unless you're trying to gauge reactions. But that's clearly not what Ranmaru was doing, since he gave up the idea after only one person replied. So apparently Ranmaru never really thought that Pom replacing out was scummy to begin with, if he gave up on that idea so easily.

Even though it won't do anything,

VOTE: Ranmaru

Guys, if I do die tonight, please look heavily into Ranmaru.

[Crazy]

Probably a good thing I wasn't around yesterday, lol. At least you guys got it right, even if I didn't.

I was all ready to vote Ranmaru today, but apparently I'll have to look elsewhere. I'll look at this game later today.

[Crazy]

I assume the main reason a wagon formed on me is because I attacked Ranmaru's crappy case on Kunkstar, and now Ranmaru is confirmed town. I'm not really sure what I can say about that, except that I think it was pretty obvious that I was more about lynching Ranmaru rather than defending Kunkstar. But meh, if you guys have any questions for me, I'll be glad to answer them.

Looking for likely Kunkstar partners:

Crazy: (post 377) Your analysis of kunkstar seemed a little stating the obvious... "shape up- ship out"... why bother? Content fluff?
Kunkstar: (post 381) Good catch (I think) on Pom not really saying anything other than "scummy" to move her vote from rvs to real. I'd like to hear more about this from Pom.

This is Amelia's only mention of Kunkstar. The first line (incorrectly directed towards me) feels like a subtle defense - if only because scum tend to be in-tune with what other people are saying about their buddies.

Her replacement, Quilford, seems VERY bad in regard to Kunkstar's flip.

In Post #754, he puts Kunkstar in his "scum" list, but he never voted for him the rest of the game.

did Kunkstar hammer with absolutely no reasoning or comment again?

I'm beginning to think he's post restricted, lol.

This is bad because it reads like Quilford is trying to give Kunkstar an out. Also, this hardly seems like a reaction from someone who had Kunkstar as one of his main suspects. If Quilford was

already

suspicious of Kunkstar, then wouldn't the second quickhammer make him

raise

his suspicions (like Ranmaru's reaction), rather than make him think Kunkstar had a post restriction?

Today:

kunkstar flip was utterly predictable; I meant to put my vote on him yesterday but instead put it on you (make of that what you will, Amrun )

Here he's trying to act like Kunkstar was obvscum, even though there's

nothing

in his previous posts that suggested that he thought that. Check his ISO; his main suspects were DGB and Ranmaru, and now he's acting like he

knew

Kunkstar would flip scum? Come on...

I can't in good faith vote Quilford yet, since I haven't looked at everybody, but he's definitely scummy. I just don't know yet if there are people that look even worse off than Quilford.

[Crazy]

@Empking - Why did you used to have a town read on DGB but now you have a scum read?

@imaginality - Explain Ranmaru's "catch" on smalls, please. I want you to explain it and not Ranmaru.

The HH/RC wagon I don't get yet. I looked through RC's ISO and he doesn't seem like a likely partner to Kunkstar (not

impossible

, but hardly likely.) I gotta look at why other people found him scummy, but I'm not up to doing all that tonight.

Does anyone have a strong objection to a Quilford wagon?

[Crazy]

@Crazy: What's your read on DGB today?

She's still prob-town for not jumping on the WLC wagon - even though (a) her neck was on the line and (b) she had just replaced in so she could come up with any reads she wanted.

Why do

you

still think DGB is scum despite that? And same question

@Empking

.

[Crazy]

@Empking - Why did you used to have a town read on DGB but now you have a scum read?

"Just kill me waah waah wah".

(My original vote was just based oln the idea that you, Amrun, myself and DGB all being town was crazy.)

I assume this is what you're referring to?:

8 Hiraki (Pomegranate, iamausername, smallpeoples343, [Low Key], Amrun, Ameliaslay, RedCoyote, kunkstar7)
5 WeyounsLastClone (Amrun, Empking, Pomegranate, Ranmaru, Crazy)

So is this just a low-tech version of DGB's scumputer or is there something I'm missing?

Why that wagon in particular? There are tons of wagons, and I don't see why you have such a degree of certainty over one specific wagon from Day 1. Honestly, I don't know much about VCA, but if you're going to do that, I'd assume

this

would be a place to start?

6 kunkstar7 (Amrun, Ranmaru, imaginality, iamausername, Empking, DrippingGoofball)
4 DrippingGoofball (Ranmaru, imaginality, Quilford, smallpeoples343)
3 Ranmaru (HackerHuck, Quilford, Empking)

Can I use your same logic and argue that it would be crazy for all of HH/Quilford/you to be town? Or that it would be crazy for all of imaginality/Quilford/small to be town? Can I do what you did, and just pick any wagon in this whole game, ever?

[Crazy]

Did you really expect me to figure out that's what you meant by that? Why are you being so vague, dude? There can't be any decent pro-town reason for making a post that can't be answered by anything except an "Elaborate, please."

I know you have an unorthodox playstyle, but that takes it to a new level of absurdity.

On top of that, your reasoning is crap, too. DGB's "scumputer" is based on entirely objective criteria, so her alignment's going to have nothing to do with whether her results pick out scum or not.

And of course you never

mention

this is why you voted DGB. Do you just vote DGB for unexplained reasons and assume that people will let you get away with it because it's your playstyle?

I'm voting you for two reasons - for being ridiculously vague when I asked you a question, and having absurd reasons for assuming that one of me/DGB has to be scum.

VOTE: Empking

[Crazy]

Is your townread on DGB based solely on her not calling WLC scum or do you think her appeals to emotion and quick-hammering of kunkstar7 are also town-flavoured?

Haha.

My town read on DGB is largely based on her not calling WLC scum, yes. I saw your low risk/reward vs. high risk/reward crap, and the "high reward" scenario would only apply if everyone in this game loves to WIFOM as much as I do. And they don't, so it was hardly a "high reward" at all.

And:

-Appeal to Emotion is never a scum-tell as far as I'm concerned, since we're all a bunch of hardened sociopaths that aren't really going to be swayed by appeals to emotion. I never see anyone going "Aww, I really don't want to hurt his feelings by lynching him." Why is AtE a scum-tell for

you

?

-DGB's quickhammer of Kunkstar would be bad scum play since it stopped Kunkstar from claiming a post restriction

or whatever other idea Quilford came up with

.

[Crazy]

@Empking

1. Yet she hasn't even been basing her votes strictly on by her scumputer. So why do you go by her scumputer instead of by the people that she's voting? And in that case, why DGB instead of any other player in the game?
2. Okay, then more AtE crap, then. I'll point to what I said in my previous post to imaginality about AtE.
3. You offered a list of names without any context at all. Is that not being intentionally vague for no reason? Certainly you could have provided some context and not forced me to scavenge the thread to find out whatever the heck you meant. (And then criticized me for "assuming," lol.)

[Crazy]

Response to Ranmaru...

Why are you voting Empking?

So what's the town motivation of not calling WLC scum? Is there a benefit to scum not calling Wey scum?

So was the AtE a town tell to you?

Or it could be good scum play since she would get town cred from you. Is this a town tell to you?

I'm voting Empking because I think he is scum. See my earlier posts for more reasons.

The town motivation for DGB to call WLC town was to attempt to save a town read from getting lynched. I can't think of any obvious benefit to scum not trying to lynch WLC; it's a high-risk scenario with very little payoff, if any.

I see AtE as a town-tell with newbies usually; in this case, it's pretty null-ish.

I don't think DGB (or anyone) is capable of anticipating that I'd be giving her significant "town cred" for her actions against the WLC wagon.

[Crazy]

@Quilford - Why don't you think Smalls is scum? He wasn't exactly on the top of my list before, but crap like this makes me nervous:

I don't see Quilford being that scumlike...

so don't think smalls is mafia guys

[Crazy]

@Amrun - At best DGB would anticipate that defending a townie wagon would be seen as a minor town-tell. She wouldn't have expected anybody to call her obv-town because of it.

@imaginality - Looking at your ISO, I keep seeing your attitude towards smalls being a wishy washy "Is he dumb or is he scum" thing. Why does that have to be a choice - would it be impossible for him to be both? (No offense to smalls here)

[Crazy]

Have you ever played with DGB before?

I've played with DGB like 2 or 3 times, but it was long time ago. Why?

Crazy, have you played with Empking before?

Yes, and I understand that he has an unorthodox playstyle. That doesn't excuse him from craplogic and his cryptic posting that serves no good purpose other than to be intentionally unhelpful. I swear, when I last played with him as town (A 6p Lovers game, don't remember the number), he was NOT this bad.

Mafia can do the same, to get town cred. The mislynch still happened, because of KunkSCUM. Was her reasoning for WeyTOWN good? Did you agree with it?

Yes, but doing so in that particular moment would have been enormously high risk for very little gain. Tell me - did all the "town cred" that DGB got from her actions really help her much? I'm the only one that called her obv-town because of it, and I doubt she would anticipate that. Everyone else just jumped on the "Ooooh, scum could do it toooooo" wagon. Scum can't read minds, you know.

I obviously didn't agree with DGB's defense of WLC at the time, since I thought WLC was scum. Whether it was a good defense or not is irrelevant to the point I am making - I honestly don't even remember.

[Crazy]

It's just giving anyone too much credit to think she'd be like "Oh, despite incredible risks involved, I will call WLC town in the off-chance that one player will try to break through the WIFOM and call me obv-town because of it, even though it's more likely that the majority of the game will think nothing of it."

[Crazy]

And your point is that DGB is a supergenius that can read minds and determine exactly how everyone is going to react to whatever she does?

(Even so, the amount of "town cred" she gained from the maneuver didn't help much at all.)

Seriously, nearly every town-tell in existence can be countered with "Oh, but scum can do that too for town cred," but we really have to draw the line at some point and say "Nobody is

that

freakin' smart."

[Crazy]

Yeah no.

Voting Ran despite obvious mason claim?

Very very emotional tone? That's NOT Quiltown.

Why is that scummy? If that's scummy, wouldn't Smalls be scummy for doing the same thing?

Not that I'm necessarily complaining about a Quilford wagon here; I just don't get this point. And as awesome as it was, I can't be swayed by your 17-million page essay on "Why Crazy is town."

plus your slot's history is friggin terrible and the replacing out reeks of scum

This inspired me to look back on your posting. RedCoyote was one of your "null" reads and you only voted HackerHuck once, and you didn't mention why.

Replacing out is never a scum-tell to me, at least not in any normal situation.

Can you explain your previous problems with Tar's slot, and why RC and/or HH getting replaced is scummy?

[Crazy]

@DGB - Why is imaginality green in your scumputer?

Crazy; Do you still think the scumputer is objective?

It was

before

, when this conversation was relevant.

The Quilford case, I think Tar makes reasonable points, and Quilford's reaction to it reads bad to me. I'm not against more pressure on him tomorrow, but I'm reluctant to lynch outside DGB or Crazy today.

With this, I think Tar may have a point about you/Quilford.

As for smallpeoples343, I take Crazy's point that smalls could be dumb and scum, and Ranmaru made some good points last page comparing smalls D1 play with later days. So I still see smalls as a good prospect of flipping scum, but Crazy and DGB are better ones. And I think a Crazy scumflip would point to smalls-town, while a DGB townflip would point to smalls-scum and a DGB scumflip would point to smalls-town (especially if DGB flips scum power role), so I feel like we'd have a stronger read on him tomorrow as a result of lynching Crazy or DGB.

Seriously? You want to lynch me or DGB to get a better read on Smalls?

How about - if you want a better read on Smalls, to ask him questions and do all that sort of "scum-hunting" stuff, instead of setting up your weird web of chain lynches?

Your stance towards Smalls has been so weird; I don't even know what it means. You suspect him, then you're not sure, then you think he's too dumb to be scum, and now you're not sure AGAIN so you want to

lynch someone else

to find out what his alignment is. *facepalm*

[Crazy]

Anyways, Crazy I don't see how you can't See Smalls being scummy.

I don't remember saying that.

Granted, I do find Empking/imaginality/Quilford all scummier at the moment. Though I don't remember saying that I thought Smalls was town.

[Crazy]

Yes, but the balance of snails' play (especially reaction to wagon D1) points towards snails being newbtown rather than newbscum, while Quilford's balance of play is scummy.

Okay, but why is voting a claimed mason scummy in the first place? I don't see it as being particularly scum-ish or town-ish. It's pretty much pointless as either alignment, isn't it?

Townies don't need to load their questions with "not necessarily complaining" and "as awesome as it was".

I just didn't want it to seem like I was defending Quilford, since that's

far

from the truth.

[Crazy]

My early push on you was because I thought you weren't fitting

your

meta, haha.

I didn't think Elli was scum because of WIFOM. The reason I attacked her was because her question would either lead to...

A. Let's lynch whoever played with Furry before!
B. Let's totally ignore the answers to this question! Looking useful FTW!

Neither of those really were a feasible option. I questioned Elli's motives because I couldn't figure what pro-town thing she was planning to do with her answers. And then she ended up basically ignoring the answers. Option B.

Yeah, I was wrong, but that's where I was coming from at that point.

[Crazy]

I don't have time now to read everything, but I'm voting Quilford as my second vote because of this:

this was the only post HackerHuck made and he wasn't replaced because he flaked. we don't even know why he flaked - he must've pmed the mod; I think it was him being unmotivated scum

This is what people say when they're caught in a lie and then they try to throw some excuse that works.

HackerHuck flaked - therefore he must be scum because only scum get unmotivated!

That's ridiculous, and I don't buy for a second that Quilford honestly believes that.

VOTE: Quilford (L-1)

Empking and imaginality aren't horrible lynches, either, though - I really wouldn't be upset if any one of them got lynched today. I really doubt they can all be scum, but at least one of them

has

to be, if not two.

Crazy in 1179: in response to Ranmaru's "Why are you voting Empking?" he says "I'm voting Empking because I think he is scum. See my earlier posts for more reasons." I don't think town would be as likely as scum to say the first sentence, because town are pretty much always voting someone because they think they're scummy. So they'd hear that question as asking for the reasons for their scumread. Scum however would be more likely to want to defend their vote in this "because he's scum - see, I'm scumhunting, really, honest I am" kind of way.

That was just me being blunt because I didn't feel like repeating what I had already said. It wasn't obvious that my reply was just an attitude thing, and not a serious response?

[Crazy]

To be honest, imaginality's big epic quote wall against DGB makes me question my scumread on him. Ranmaru will hate my logic here, since I've said it in a previous game, but a quote wall directed against someone implies passion, which implies towniness.

Quilford's much worse in that area, since he's not following through on anything. He's not arguing against Tar, he's not arguing against Empking, he's just sitting back and hoping that something will happen that doesn't involve him getting lynched.

Why do people think Quil is town? Is it a meta thing? I've played with Quil-town before and he was much more passionate and aggressive than he is here, even if his logic was slightly off on occasion.

And...

my activity levels are low here because I AM BEING ATTACKED BY SCUM AND NOBODY IS LISTENING plus you know uncertain about my reads because everyone is suddenly swinging back and forth and

I can't decide on the alignments of

Crazy

Empking

smalls and

and everyone really

I'm just a VT.

Empking needs to die.

He can't decide on Empking's alignment, yet Empking still "needs" to die?

I suppose there are worse lynches than imaginality, since at best, I guess he's a scum-tool that can assist in some DGB/Crazy mislynches. But if we do imaginality today, can we at least do Quilford tomorrow? I find it very unlikely that he's town.

UNVOTE: Empking, too, because I really think Quil is scum, and Empking doesn't seem like a likely partner.

[Crazy]

@Quilford - How do you feel about the imaginality wagon?
And can you explain your Empking vote and your Tar vote?
And can you explain why you said you doubted your read on several players (including Empking), but then in the same post, you said "Empking needs to die."

@Tar - Why is one instance of Quilford saying he doubted his reads enough to jump off his wagon?

@imaginality - Any chance of you voting Quilford today? I'm not lynching DGB.

[Crazy]

My current stance is that I want to lynch Quilford. He's lazy, not even remotely proactive, and whining about getting Empking lynched even though he's never even made a case on Empking, and despite even saying that he wasn't sure about his read on Empking!

He also apparently thinks that HackerHuck getting replaced is a scum-tell, and when I called him out on his craplogic, he ignored me.

When it comes to relations towards Kunkstar, he is also one of the worst, along with Imaginality and Amrun.

If you guys don't want to lynch Quilford, I will support an imaginality lynch, since even if Imag is town, he'll just end up supporting the scum in getting their mislynches, anyway. But I'd rather lynch the more likely scum first.

[Crazy]

MY BODY ITCHING LIKE CRAZY RIGHT NOW OMG!!!!

I don't want a No Lynch, and it looks like the Quilford wagon doesn't have enough support. That sucks.

UNVOTE: Quilford
VOTE: imaginality
VOTE: Empking

I have issues with both imag/Empking wagons; imag's recent posts read close to obv-town, despite his earlier scummier play, and Empking doesn't seem like a likely partner to Quilford, who is my top scum read.

But a No Lynch is HORRIBLE when we're at odd numbers. Anything is preferable to a No Lynch. Heck, if there's no majority by deadline, I'll even hammer DGB before we No Lynch.

[Crazy]

I just looked into Kunkstar's ISO again to check his interactions with all the players still alive.

Quilford/Ameliaslay

- Never mentioned

Amrun

- Subtly defended him TWICE (#381 and #646)
Crazy - One of his major suspects

Empking

- A minor suspect. Never voted him.

imaginality

- Explained a weird null-read on him and then said my attack on imaginality was "reaching somewhat" (#591)
DGB/Pom - One of his major suspects
Tar/RC - Blatant chainsaw defense from Empking. The lack of subtlety here makes it not quite as bad as others
Smalls - Barely mentioned, apart from a "What's up with the smalls wagon" in his first post.

The red are the worst. The orange are the next worst. I'm not sure why Tar is assuming that Kunk had to be distancing from either me or DGB; the only interaction that really even

looks

like potential distancing is with Empking, and even then, I think Quil/imag/Amrun all look worse than he does.

Going the other way, imaginality had an abrupt change of heart about kunkstar when it suddenly became inevitable that he would be lynched. Granted, this

was

after Kunkstar's infamous hammer-without-a-claim, but as I said to Ranmaru, that's not a very good reason to suspect someone. Just because Kunkstar ended up being scum doesn't mean that his quickhammer was a good scum play.

Amrun barely mentioned kunkstar at all until after he hammered WLC. The next day, he plops the first vote on Kunkstar without saying anything. Even though his last words on the previous day didn't seem to suggest that he thought Kunkstar was obvscum because of it.

Kunk, how could you hammer like that? At least it was a hammer on someone I wanted lynched.

Quilford I already explained. His notion that "Kunkstar's flip was obvious" is the worst offender, since he never even

voted

Kunkstar.

[Crazy]

Notice how Kunkstar was sheeping LK's case on me.

Not to be blunt, but I'm not sure what your point is here. Kunk is dead scum, and you're confirmed town, so what are you getting at?

Crazy, would you lynch Quilford for hammering like that?

Also, read on Amrun?

I would lynch Quilford anyway. The hammer itself would probably not be enough reason for me to lynch him, though it's ridiculous that he had

that

many reasons to lynch DGB when just a couple posts ago he called her town. Plus, a lot of the reasons he gives are silly ones that he never even mentioned before. I mean, if the fact that DGB claimed "vanilla"

really

bothered him so much, why did he have to ask DGB what her claim was in his post right before? If it's something he really cared about, then certainly he would have noticed it before.

And, of course, expecting someone to remember whether their role PM said "Townie" or "Vanilla Townie" weeks later is ridiculous in itself. He made it up on the spot and he's reaching like crap.

My read on Amrun is "null/leaning scum," but only for ties to Kunkstar atm. I need to examine her more; for some reason she's been kind of off my radar.

[Crazy]

Yet you never implied that Kunkstar's hammer was actually scummy, did you? I mean, of course it was

bad

, but I had been arguing with Ranmaru at length on whether it was actually

scummy

.

Was there any reason you chose to ignore that whole discussion and just vote Kunkstar without saying anything? Was my opinion so obviously wrong that you didn't need to counter it with anything?

Imag is still one of my scumreads, albeit one that's been offset a little by his recent behavior - mainly his war of quote-walls with DGB, and even his excitement towards DGB's hammer. You can call my read of imag "mixed but still leaning scum" if you want.

[Crazy]

I agree with Scott claiming next.

In case we're in LYLO, we should stop using both of our votes now. Any minor gain we get from that is not worth the risk.

I'd vote Quilford, but I'll wait for everyone to claim, first.

[Crazy]

Since I think I'm the only one that hasn't claimed yet, I'm also a VT.

I'll look into other stuff later.

[Crazy]

======[]

VOTE: Quilford

I'm going to take this opportunity in case anybody decides to change their minds. Because I don't see myself ever changing my mind about Quilford being scum.

My reasons, which I've explained before:

1. His interactions with Kunkstar, including...
-Kunkstar never mentioning him or Ameliaslay at all.
-Quilford trying to give Kunkstar an out with his "post restriction" comment.
-Saying that Kunkstar's scum-flip was "utterly predictable," even though he never voted Kunkstar

2. His overall lazy and nonproductive attitude.

3. His horrible DGB hammer, which had horrible reasoning, and came from nowhere, without accordance from his previous reads up to that point.

4. His contradiction in Post #1288, in which he stated his read on Empking was floundering but then repeated that "Empking needs to die."

[Crazy]

I hammered Quilford because I thought he was scum, knew that nothing would change my mind, and I wanted to lynch him before anyone had a chance to unvote.

Why is that a problem?

[Crazy]

I'm planning on voting empking and/or tar. Any problems?

Whatever you do, don't vote two people.

I gotta think over what the most likely scum-pairings are before I vote.

Because you din't give anyone else a chance to work out who (if nor Quilford) was the scum.

To me, getting Quilford lynched was more important than being fair and democratic. I didn't want to risk a townie changing their mind or a distancing scum to jump off Quilford's wagon.

You can argue against my actions, I suppose, but I don't understand why that would necessarily make me scum. I've explained why, as town, that I felt the need to quickhammer Quilford. Can you accept that, or not? If not, then why would the quickhammer benefit me if I was scum?

[Crazy]

What I mean is, if I was scum, why would it especially benefit me to hammer Quilford

then

, as opposed to waiting? The only people in danger of being lynched were Quilford and you, and obviously from your perspective, you're town, right?

[Crazy]

I suppose so, but you're already arguing the point that it's

possible

for me to be scum. Of course anything's possible, but why is it

likely

that I'm scum? Why is your argument for why Crazy-scum would hammer Quilford better than my argument for why Crazy-town did hammer Quilford?

[Crazy]

I'll be V/LA tomorrow. Looking forward to imag and Tar's input on this scenario.

I got the same hunch that it's Empking/imag. Amrun is town barring some weird gambit where she's bussing Empking. If she was scum with Tar or imag, then she would have assisted Empking in lynching me and won. I also have a moderate town read on Tar just because he changes his mind a lot, which I consider a town-tell. But I have to think more on everything.

[Crazy]

I would like to mention that Crazy went from quickhammerring to (in part) protect me from getting lynched to declaring me scum. That isn't simply reacting to new circumstances but evidence of an evil plan.

Protecting you had nothing to do with it at all...

Why do you have a town read on imag? Is an imag/Tar pairing impossible for you to believe?

@Crazy: What do you mean by "Amrun is town barring some weird gambit where she's bussing Empking. If she was scum with Tar or imag, then she would have assisted Empking in lynching me and won" - are you talking about today? (If so, I think it's a bit weak to say she's town just for not auto-leaping on your wagon straightaway. I lean town on her anyhow but not for that reason.)

If a townie wants to lynch another townie in LYLO, that's hardly something scum would discourage. But if you agree with Amrun-town, then this isn't something we should waste our time arguing about.

Why are you concerned with getting Empking and Tar to cross-vote instead of just fighting for a specific person to get lynched? I can't really

oppose

the idea of Empking and Tar cross-voting, since I'm about 95% sure at least one of them

has

to be scum, but the way you suggested it was so convoluted and awkward that I have to suspect that you're trying to pull something off. My most logical guess is that you're scum with Tar and you're trying to create a mislynch on Empking since you'd "know" that I'd vote Empking if it came down to Empking vs. Tar. Then you'd win. That would also fit in with Tar's abrupt switch regarding his read on you as soon as your wagon gained speed.

Honestly, I wish I could vote

you

, but I don't think that's possible.

@Amrun/Empking

- Any chance you'd vote imag today?

@Tar - Why does my quickhammer "confirm" me as scum? Did you read the exchange I had with Empking today?

[Crazy]

Tar is V/LA.

Empking, so does that mean you now think it's Tar/imaginality, or am I missing your logic?

[Crazy]

I haven't updated my wiki in a long time.

I'm sure my posting rate here is significantly lower than both my town and scum average, due to a combination of outside circumstances and just losing general interest in mafia. This will most likely be my last mafia game for a little while.

If Empking and Tar are going to cross-vote, that's fine, since the only realistic possibilities in my head involve at least one of them being scum (most likely with imag). I need to reread some more to figure which of Empking/Tar is more likely to be scum. My basic gut at this point is that Empking is a stronger individual scum read, but Tar/imag have more dubious associations.

[Crazy]

Tar, would you lynch imag today?

[Crazy]

Option 1:

Tar is town.
-Imag/Amrun is not a likely pair.
-The only likely pairs are Empking/imag or Empking/Amrun.

Option 2:

Tar is scum with imag.
-Tar is worried that Empking vs. Tar will lead to his own lynch.
-Tar attacks imag's plan for distancing points, and uses it to try to convince Empking to lynch me.

Option 3:

Tar is scum with Empking.
-Empking had a plan to bus Tar (or get bussed by Tar) and then mislynch me on Day 7.
-Tar didn't like this plan and is now trying scare tactics on imag to try to get him to lynch me.

***

One thing against Empking/Tar is that they don't seem to be working in unison... Empking was ready to vote Tar but then Tar argued against that.
Also, imag's weird plan for Empking/Tar to cross-vote makes more sense if he was Tar's partner rather than Empking's.

Empking/Amrun is something I haven't looked closely enough into. But right now I'm leaning imag/Tar (with a slight preference for imag's lynch), unless if I find something there.

[Crazy]

Can I hear that from other people - what they think the most likely scumpairs are?

[Crazy]

How is it that I'm obvscum again? Because I hammered the person that was my top suspect for the last 18 years?

Obviously I'm not obvscum or I'd be lynched already.

[Crazy]

I thought your top 2 were me/Tar and imag/Tar?

[Crazy]

Tar's recent posting

puts you and Imag back in 2nd place.

I've decided to

not bother with LyoL posting that much

(since scum are trying to look town) but focus on the earlier days. In that case you take first place.'ve decided to not bother with LyoL posting that much (since scum are trying to look town) but focus on the earlier days. In that case you take first place.

[Crazy]

So... why me again? Is it just the quickhammer?

[Crazy]

Yeah... that's the thing, both you and Tar seem to have jumped to the conclusion that quickhammering = auto-scum, yet neither of you have come with any valid reasons for why scum would actually be

likely

to do that. Your only argument is "town don't do that 'cuz they don't."

[Crazy]

It's not anti-town if the person hammered is scum. And I thought Quilford was scum, and I didn't want anyone else lynched except for Quilford. So I wanted to hammer him before anyone else changed their minds. Stalling the hammer for three days or so wouldn't have accomplished anything, would it?

[Crazy]

If imag is scum that was insanely stupid, since he already had the win. (As long as whichever of Empking/Tar wasn't his partner voted for me.)

Yeah, it could be an elaborate WIFOM gambit, but that would still be pointless, since he could have won much more easily if he had just voted for me.

I'll think it over some more, but still, it's really hard to imagine. Lucky it happened, though, since it saved me from a mislynch and before this I was leaning towards imag/Tar as the scum-team.

@Empking - If you don't want me to vote for you, explain how Imag/Tar still makes sense. Or are you now assuming that it has to be Imag/me?

[Crazy]

And I feel safe enough that it's not Tar/Amrun that I'm not worried about a quickhammer.

[Crazy]

Crazy: Why doesn't Imag/Tar make sense?

If it was imag/Tar then it would be stupid for imag to vote for you when they could have easily lynched me (with your vote) and won. Imag would have thrown away a guaranteed win for a more difficult win. I don't think he would be that stupid.

[Crazy]

Eh, just VOTE: Empking. I'm tired of waiting and I can't see myself changing my mind.

[Crazy]

No need to say it like it's a big logic puzzle. Tar's like "I can't be scum with anybody but Empking." I mean, wasn't that obvious already?

If Amrun is town (which we'll find out soon), then it's either me/imag or Empking/Tar. (Or I suppose a very tiny chance of me/Empking)
If Amrun is scum then he'll win next time he logs on.

I'll answer any questions from Amrun, of course.

[Crazy]

If you want to make an argument that me and you are the scum-team, be my guest.

[Crazy]

This game was fun, and it seemed pretty balanced, too.

I was like the cockroach that wouldn't die in this game. I survived my Day 1 wagon, then that crap after Kunkstar's lynch, then my quickhammer on Quilford, lol.

I was pretty sure that Kunkstar would get lynched after his second quickhammer. My attack on Ranmaru actually wasn't an attempt to save Kunkstar; it was an attempt to make people think "Scum wouldn't be that obvious," in regards to me/Kunkstar interactions. I was pretty sure that if I did

nothing

about Kunkstar, then I'd be lynched anyway, and I didn't think I'd be able to bus Kunkstar believably, since I had totally ignored his wagon before that point. So I went for the WIFOM gambit.

I didn't think my hammer on Quilford was

that

bad. It's something that I might have done as town. Maybe. But my intentions there were to draw attention away from me/imag and tie myself more to Empking, since he was the leading wagon. (If I was lynched D6, then Empking would probably be lynched D7 over imag.)

I would have still probably defended DGB even if I was town, but probably not as strongly. Quilford's right in that most of my scum-cases were pretty bad. Especially Ranmaru, since Ran was pretty obv-town. But ultimately, it didn't matter if other people believed them as long as they believed that I believed them.

I can't believe I blew my chance with Tar thinking I was town, though, with one awkward statement I made. Kudos to Tar for figuring it out, though.

Overall, the best thing we did was probably all the distancing between me and imag. Thanks to imag for that, since that was mostly his doing.

It was a pleasure playing with all of you.