Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[DrippingGoofball]

3 Quilford (Tarhalindur, Empking, Crazy)
3 DrippingGoofball (imaginality, Empking, smallpeoples343)
3 Empking (DrippingGoofball, Quilford, Crazy)
3 imaginality (Tarhalindur, DrippingGoofball, Amrun)

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! A four-person race.

[Amrun]

I really don't think empking is scum though.

The way he wrote me off as town early on just seemed unnecessary as scum.

Buuut I think I'll go meta him a little.

[DrippingGoofball]

The way he wrote me off as town early on just seemed unnecessary as scum.

I do that as town and as scum.

If Empking isn't scum, then Tar/imag/smalls might work. But I don't see him being town much. I know I have one of my scum-reads wrong.

[imaginality]

I'm not feeling sure enough to back either a Quilford or Empking lynch today.

Why are you worried about me hammering Quilford, DGB, when I said this just before? After all it's not like I ever change my reads, according to you...

Okay, to the wall! Each point is lettered this time for ease of reference and less wall-i-ness later.

It demonstrates that the bulk of your "reads" are null-to nullish. It was NOT rhetorical.

Minor scum and minor town reads aren't null. They mean I think the player is town or scum but I'm less sure than I am about other players. In the post DGB's talking about, on Ameliaslay (minor scum read) I said "I wouldn't cry to see her lynched." That's not 'null-ish'. On my minor town reads, Ellibereth and RedCoyote, I specifically said what it was that held me back from giving a stronger town read on them - that's not 'null-ish'. I only had three actual null reads (Amrun, Empking and WLC (and for each of them, I said why I was having trouble deciding)). Out of 12 players, and at the start of D2, that's not a lot.

[kunkstar's] Day 1 posts read well.

Erm, no, his FEW posts were poor to the point of hammering him without a chance to fakeclaim.

Please support your statement that kunkstar's Day 1 posts "read well" and why your read remained unchanged after Day 1, and why it took kunkstar's second claimless hammer to finally vote him with some reluctance.

kunkstar7 - town read: in particular for cases made in isos3, 4 and 11.

That was what I said at the time. I'm not going to retcon more reasons in. Take a look at those posts, they all look(ed) town to me.

And are you complaining about me clearly suspecting 5 people now, when you complained about me having a bunch of weak reads earlier?

Nope, in fact, fifth position means you pretty much won't vote him.

He was in 5th position for me when Ranmaru asked me about him. I didn't say I was thinking of voting him - I had four better suspects at the time. Should I have lied and said he's higher up my list???

I really fail to see how else I could have answered that question. What would you do if someone asks

you

about

your

5th-highest suspect?

Really? Also, you conveniently ignore the fact this comment on Empking was

in response to Ranmaru asking me my read on Empking.

I'm not sure how else I could've answered the question except by saying which position he was at in my list at the time.

It's still a way of saying you won't vote him.

PLUS - Empking was behind "

DGB, smalls, Crazy, and kunkstar"

(kunkstar being a FORCED scumread at that point, calling him town became untenable), and three players you have CONTINUALLY declared were scum, smalls, Crazy and myself.

Responded to under H.

I had a "slight town" read on RedCoyote because I've played with him before and felt his play was consistent with here, and he was making sense to me, read-wise. I feel more confident he's town now, not least because of known-town Ranmaru's confidence in his mason buddy's reason for that slot being town. Tarhalindur actually scumhunting helps, too.

And Tar disappeared after the suspicion went away, but you can't change your mind, that's inconsistent, right?

Meh, considering he's recently replaced in it's too early to say if that particular absence is an abberation from his usual activity or not. If it becomes a pattern of "active when attacked, away when ignored" then sure, that's scummy. But until then, I have a fairly high tolerance for minor spells of inconsistent activity because it's something I'm aware I can be guilty of regardless of alignment, so I see it fairly null.

I said 'if' because I

don't

know

you're scum. I didn't say "but she can be really helpful as town" because I

did/do

think

you're scum. Like, I'd probably have said I was 80% sure you're scum. 80% chance of very bad stuff clearly outweighed the 20% chance of very good stuff. If I'd felt more 50-50 about you then I'd have taken your asset-as-town-ness into consideration.

That's a very scumvenient excuse, you should still have considered the 20% chance.

I did consider it - it was clearly outweighed by the much larger chance you're scum. I was saying, "Lynch DGB because she's probably scum and that's bad news for us." Also, I take it your silence in response to the 'IF' part means you agree my 'IF' wasn't scummy.

You are unvarying in your fake consistency, and your stubborn pushing of a scummy agenda of defending some buddies (kunkstar), bus'ing one (possibly smalls) ans weakly distancing from the third (Empking).

This guesswork is pointless because it does nothing to strengthen your case on me, it's only useful after someone's flipped scum, and I'm going to flip town if I'm lynched.

Is that how it's looked? To me, I've wavered in my reads on smalls and Crazy, still find Quilford and Empking tricky to read, and thought Amrun was suspicious for a bit before lately having a townread on her. I've been consistently townreading Ranmaru and Tarhalindur's slot, admittedly.

Oh really. Besides the tiny unvote on Crazy, where have you wavered on smalls? Quilford & Empking tricky to read, that's just keeping YOUR SCUMOPTIONS OPEN, it's not wavering. It's not wavering.

On smalls, times when I've wavered on him:
iso2: "I buy small's play and claim as having that town scent to it. Sadly"
iso5: "Red Coyote, [Low Key], iamausername, smallpeoples343, all are good townreads for me at the moment"
iso45: "I'm having doubts about smalls just because with each post, it's getting increasingly hard to believe scum would be so... oblivious. I feel like smalls-scum asked about his voting an uncounterclaimed mason would have played the "oh I'm so silly I forgot he's mason" card."
iso47: "I think a Crazy scumflip would point to smalls-town[...] and a DGB scumflip would point to smalls-town"

On Crazy, times when I've wavered on him:
iso2: "Crazy's looked a bit better since earlier, which leads me to reinterpret his jumping on Ellibereth's question as blundering town rather than scum."
iso6: "Crazy looks a bit less bad today than yesterday [for being off the Hiraki wagon]."

but since then I haven't had reason to lessen my suspicion on him. (See my thoughts about Tarhalindur's Crazy-town posts for example.) And the Crazy-DGB buddies theory has been looking increasingly likely.

On Amrun, when my reads have wavered on her:
iso2: "I have a gut town read on Amrun"
iso5: "Amrun was [in my townreads] but [has] slipped off due to her fence-sitting"
iso9: "Amrun - null read"
iso29: "This kind of fishing seems scummy. FoS: Amrun."
iso51: "Amrun's good posts on the last few pages mean she's now a clearer town read to me."

And my read on you has stuck throughout because Pom's scumminess had already dug you into a hole, and since then your play has been based nearly entirely on this:

DGB's scumposting algorithm

1. Roll a D20
2. Act accordingly:

1: threaten to retire
2-5: Scumputer time!
6-8: Insult Ranmaru's intelligence
9-11: Insult the whole town's intelligence
12-13: Predict town loss
14-18: Appeal to emotion
19-20: Fake being hammered

OK, how is that scummy?

(i)I'm insulting Ranmaru-MASON-of-the-godawful-town-reads and offending him at every opportunity, HOW IS THAT SCUMMY?

Like, how is this helping my scum goal to survive to endgame, compared to, say, being consistent and (ii) having a lot of vague reads,

like you

???
(iii)How is the scumputer scummy? I'd like to hear your reasons.
(iv)How is insulting the town's intelligence scummy? Is there a snowball's chance that this will help people get off my back?
(v)How is predicting a town loss scummy?
(vi)How is AtE scummy, are you relying on cheap wikitells?
(vii)How is faking being hammered scummy?

(letters added)
Some of it's more anti-town than scummy - what's scummy is how it's been in lieu of actually doing much scumhunting. This case you've put together against me is too little, too late - and on town, to boot.

Specific points:
(i) It's anti-town behaviour. Wasted posts. Town should be making a case, or critiquing a case, not just yelling and expecting people to change their minds
(ii) My three null reads D2, and two I'm unsure of now, isn't "lots"
(iii) It's lazy - an easy way to seem like you're contributing more than you actually are rather than do some actual scumhunting. Tarhalindur's questioned its accuracy, and you yourself have said it conflicts with your reads (e.g. iso52)
(iv) Anger can sometimes sway weak players, and it's a cheap way of trying to appear like you care, when the people who do care are the ones doing the scumhunting
(v) Another cheap way of trying to appear like you care. In this game, it comes across as pretty insincere
(vi) In this game, you seem exaggeratedly fraught and the base emotion behind your posts seems like scum angry about being under constant attack. Your "WOE IS ME LYNCH ME NAO" and "OHH NOES I WAS HAMMERED, YOU'RE ALL GONNA LOSE" type posts seem insincere to me
(vii) Each time you took the chance to try to throw in some response to it of the "YOU STUPID TOWNIES, THIS GAME MADE ME SO ANGRY AND NOW YOU'RE DOOMED WITHOUT ME" kind, which seems to me like hoping someone will read your reaction to 'being hammered' as town

Where do you get this roll D20 business - UNLIKE YOU, I change my mind when the evidence is there.

It's just for the lolz. I was actually going to draw a flowchart for even more lolz. But I got lazy.

AND STILL

I could have frikkin hammered Quilford, he thinks I'm scum, and I'd be out of a pickle. BUT I WANT TO LYNCH SCUM

not save my own KEISTER

. Again.

The more you can get town to do the dirty work of mislynching for you, the longer you get to live. You not lynching him here (if he's town) is like you not voting WLC D2.

Kunkstar... I'd say scum.

And yet you vote DGB 'to be normal and join the others'?

Grr. I still think DGB is scum, and I guess smallpeoples343 could be bussing with this lazy-scummy post. But that's a stretch if DGB is scum GF or other scum PR. I think smallpeople343's post fits more neatly with a DGB town, kunkstar7 + smallpeoples343 scum scenario. The 'vote town but list your buddy as your second (in this game third) suspect' approach.

Taking that into account, I think kunkstar7 should be lynched today ahead of DGB, since he's still scummy under either scenario.

Here, he berates smalls for voting me, and actually considers the possibility that I may be town for a minute, still hanging on to that stupid theory that I'm a GF. Now, even though imaginality has smalls on this scumlist, he is not voting smalls. He's voting me instead, presumably because I'm the key to figure out smalls' alignment, though in his post, the logical step would be the reverse... another logic snag. And yet... as he considers the possibility, at last, that I'm town... he still hangs on to his CONSISTENT STANCE: "I still think DGB is scum" - so despite calling it a stretch in the same sentence, he clearly announces that smalls is frikkin bus'ing me, of all things.

It wasn't my clearest post but basically what I was saying there was:

1. smalls looks scummy, but I don't think he's scum with DGB - it's an either-or deal here
2. so let's lynch kunkstar7 today, because he's also pretty scummy, and could be scum with either of them
3. meanwhile my other vote's on DGB because I think she's scummier than smalls

It is not possible for be to be more town than I am in this game. You don't sound stupid; why you haven't figured out that I'm town leads me to believe that you don't want to read me as town, because as scum, you'd be closing a lynch option for yourself, and you don't want to lynch your buddy Empking.

Wow, way to shift the goalposts. You claimed that post was me contradicting myself and getting tangled up. It was one of your main points against me. I clarified it to show the logic behind it. You... shift to talking about how you're town.

You claim hammering kunkstar7 without letting him claim was townish. No.

READ MY SIG. It was totally 100% townish. If we were scum together, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would have made him have a fakeclaim ready./wifom. READ MY SIG.

HE HADN'T POSTED IN THIS THREAD YET. I don't care that he'd posted elsewhere on site. You gave him, what, a few hours since I called for him to claim?

You don't know if he even checked this thread.

And even if you personally think his claim was likely to be fake, you denied others the chance to make their own calls on that.

"Woohoo, I'll get myself some townpoints for hammering scum!"

I predicted that I'd come under heavy fire, if not outright lynched, for not letting scum wiggle out of a pickle with a fakeclaim. I predicted that. Such is this town. Anybody would have predicted that it would earn me SCUMpoints, not TOWNcred.

I DID IT ANYWAY.

Where did you predict it? I don't buy that you thought, "Well, I could wait for him to claim, then call his claim fake and hammer him, but I'll hammer him now even though that'll look scummier to everyone else." You just weren't thinking, or at most, maybe thinking "Oh noes, if someone else hammers him before me I'm screwed tomorrow."

I annoyed DGB-scum by not letting up on trying to get her lynched, some of my earlyish reads were weak rather than strong reads, I weighted conclusions according to likelihood, I used reads of interactions to narrow down scumpairing possibilities, I 'protected' kunkstar7 by... erm... saying we should lynch him and voting for him.

Nice misrep. You only annoyed me this game day after much consideration. I was more annoyed with Ranmaru, and I didn't vote Ranmaru, who survived the night. Most of your reads

were

weak. The kunkstar vote was a hail-mary vote, you couldn't keep your UNCHANGING stance on kunkstar anymore after that. Your scumpairing possibilities didn't narrow things down, they left things UNCHANGED despite your own fake train of thought. And yet you ask how could a townie possibly know he was scum??? You know I'm town, don't you.

lol. You claimed the whole town annoyed you pretty much consistently since you replaced in. I'm part of the town. I called kunkstar7 scum for his hammer during twilight and got straight on him the next day. You didn't vote him despite calling him scum (maybe because you thought you were about to be lynched so you didn't care about trying to look town?) until you saw the chance to quickhammer him. The way you hammered smells of scum knowing their buddy's alignment, not town who's unsure. And my scumpairings mean I can't call smalls scum if you or Crazy flip scum, or vice versa - that narrows things down from my just calling all three of you scum.

I think you're scum. I don't know for sure, but your crappy points against me read like a scum "fling mud, hope some sticks" kind of case.

Your best point against me is of consistency. It's not as ridiculously strong as you make out (as I showed above), but I have been consistent in my reads on you, Crazy since D2-ish, and Ranmaru. But in each case I think that's been fully justified by each player's play. In particular, you haven't given me any good reason to doubt my scumread on you.

[Amrun]

Am I a terrible person if I don't read that?

[DrippingGoofball]

In particular, you haven't given me any good reason to doubt my scumread on you.

said the scum

[DrippingGoofball]

Am I a terrible person if I don't read that?

I just did.

I'm too exhausted to re-re-re-respond. And it's mostly the same thing he said in his previous post with different words, more obfuscation, and more obstinacy to stay consistent.

[DrippingGoofball]

4 Quilford (Tarhalindur, Amrun, Empking, Crazy)
3

DrippingGoofball

(

imaginality

, Empking, smallpeoples343)
3 Empking (DrippingGoofball, Quilford, Crazy)
2

Crazy

(Ranmaru,

imaginality

)
2 smallpeoples343 (Ranmaru, Amrun)
2 imaginality (Tarhalindur, DrippingGoofball)
1 Tarhalindur (Quilford)
1 Ranmaru (smallpeoples343)

@ imaginality

IF,

IF

you're not scum. You have two votes on townies. And IF you're not scum, by POE, the scum has to be in Tar/smalls/Empking.

If you move your Crazy vote to smalls (who you can vote while saving face for consistency), we can have 5 players with 3 votes. Crazy isn't getting lynched anyway, that vote is a complete waste. Exciting race.

[DrippingGoofball]

This vote needs to move:

1 Ranmaru (smallpeoples343)

[DrippingGoofball]

From the activity overview:

smallpeoples343 2011-07-27 09:53:55

7 days

12 hours 72

[DrippingGoofball]

smalls posted elsewhere on the 28, but seems to have vanished since.

[imaginality]

Am I a terrible person if I don't read that?

Yes if part of your reason for voting me is DGB's case on me. Because my responses knock down most of her points.

I'm too exhausted to re-re-re-respond.

And it's mostly the same thing he said in his previous post with different words, more obfuscation, and more obstinacy to stay consistent.

You're scum but at least you're amusing.

If you move your Crazy vote to smalls (who you can vote while saving face for consistency), we can have 5 players with 3 votes. Crazy isn't getting lynched anyway, that vote is a complete waste. Exciting race.

I'd rather smalls gets lynched than Quilford or Empking, and if it comes down to that I'll vote for smalls. But I don't want to give up on a Crazy lynch yet. I think I've made a lot of good points against him (and I'd like to hear Tarhalindur's thoughts about my response to his Crazy=town posts).

[DrippingGoofball]

I'd rather smalls gets lynched than Quilford or Empking, and if it comes down to that I'll vote for smalls. But I don't want to give up on a Crazy lynch yet. I think I've made a lot of good points against him (and I'd like to hear Tarhalindur's thoughts about my response to his Crazy=town posts).

Crazy is totally not getting lynched today, even if Tar stands on his head and spits wooden nickels for you.

You can move your vote.

We have three days, this COUNTS.

[Crazy]

To be honest, imaginality's big epic quote wall against DGB makes me question my scumread on him. Ranmaru will hate my logic here, since I've said it in a previous game, but a quote wall directed against someone implies passion, which implies towniness.

Quilford's much worse in that area, since he's not following through on anything. He's not arguing against Tar, he's not arguing against Empking, he's just sitting back and hoping that something will happen that doesn't involve him getting lynched.

Why do people think Quil is town? Is it a meta thing? I've played with Quil-town before and he was much more passionate and aggressive than he is here, even if his logic was slightly off on occasion.

And...

my activity levels are low here because I AM BEING ATTACKED BY SCUM AND NOBODY IS LISTENING plus you know uncertain about my reads because everyone is suddenly swinging back and forth and

I can't decide on the alignments of

Crazy

Empking

smalls and

and everyone really

I'm just a VT.

Empking needs to die.

He can't decide on Empking's alignment, yet Empking still "needs" to die?

I suppose there are worse lynches than imaginality, since at best, I guess he's a scum-tool that can assist in some DGB/Crazy mislynches. But if we do imaginality today, can we at least do Quilford tomorrow? I find it very unlikely that he's town.

UNVOTE: Empking, too, because I really think Quil is scum, and Empking doesn't seem like a likely partner.

[DrippingGoofball]

I have an idea.

We are 9 left, we need 5 to lynch.

TOWNIES

2.) Quilford (rep. Ameliaslay)
3.) Amrun
4.) Crazy
12.) DrippingGoofball (rep. Pomegranate)
13.) Ranmaru

SCUMZ

10.) imaginality
6.) Empking
14.) Tarhalindur (rep. HackerHuck (rep. RedCoyote))
15.) smallpeoples343

Now, the 4 scumz players aren't all scum. At least one doesn't belong there. Maybe even two.

What we need is for the 4 non-DGB townies to make serious cases on one player tomorrow.

Quilford >>> imaginality
Amrun >>> Empking
Crazy >>> Tarhalindur (rep. HackerHuck (rep. RedCoyote))
Ranmaru >>> smalls

The four of you will decide who to lynch together.

Is that a plan?

[DrippingGoofball]

To be honest, imaginality's big epic quote wall against DGB makes me question my scumread on him.

He's responding to a wall I started.

I've seen scumz write walls before. I've been fooled before.

The quote wall is null, IMO.

For Quilford: "I AM BEING ATTACKED BY SCUM AND NOBODY IS LISTENING " - this is a frustrated townie alright and it's emphasized by the defeatist "I'm just a VT" feeling of helplessness which I think is a huge town tell.

[DrippingGoofball]

Also, Crazy, you should re-vote Empking.

We're having a photo-finish race close to deadline, and now is not the time to shrink the deadline lynch pool.

[Amrun]

Why would you pick ME to do a case on empking?

[imaginality]

Time A: Thursday July 21 12:49am (NZ)

imaginality: "@kunkstar7: care to claim?"

Time B: Thursday July 21: 7:10am (NZ)

DGB: "Vote: Kunkstar7"

Time elapsed between A and B:

6hrs 21mins

kunkstar7's posts elsewhere on site between Time A and Time B:

4 posts

DGB says:

"Kunkstar was stalling the claim."

Time C:

Wednesday August 3rd 4:13pm (NZ)

DGB: "I will wait for the claim, and there better no be evidence of stalling."
Time D:

Wednesday August 3rd 11:22pm (NZ)

Quilford: "I'm just a VT."

Time elapsed between C and D:

7hrs 9mins

Quilford's posts elsewhere on site between Time C and Time D =

8 posts

DGB says:

"Not gonna hammer this one."

[Amrun]

Let's ignore relative reads, shall we?

[imaginality]

I ran those figures through my Timeputer(TM) and it gave me the following results:

Chrono-hypocrisy scores

1: DGB
0: Everyone else

[Tarhalindur]

Currently too busy getting a Mind Screw off the ground to stay fully up to date with this game.

Not too busy to not notice imaginality's 1328. Never mind my previous suspicion, he's town.

Unvote: imaginality

Quil's VT claim would be unusual for a scumbag but isn't unheard of. The admission that he's having doubts on reads, however, reads town.

Unvote: Quilford

I have an idea.

We are 9 left, we need 5 to lynch.

TOWNIES

2.) Quilford (rep. Ameliaslay)
3.) Amrun
4.) Crazy
12.) DrippingGoofball (rep. Pomegranate)
13.) Ranmaru

SCUMZ

10.) imaginality
6.) Empking
14.) Tarhalindur (rep. HackerHuck (rep. RedCoyote))
15.) smallpeoples343

Now, the 4 scumz players aren't all scum. At least one doesn't belong there. Maybe even two.

What we need is for the 4 non-DGB townies to make serious cases on one player tomorrow.

Quilford >>> imaginality
Amrun >>> Empking
Crazy >>> Tarhalindur (rep. HackerHuck (rep. RedCoyote))
Ranmaru >>> smalls

The four of you will decide who to lynch together.

Is that a plan?

"So, let's try to force people to make cases on players they don't necessarily think are scum."

Not only is that lazy and passive as shit, that's not town behavior - if followed, it would shut off genuine scumhunting and provide more cover to scum (confuse the difference between town attacking because they think a player is scum and scum attacking because they have to make a case on a player they don't think is scum).

I'm trying to see a town reason for floating this, DGB, and I'm not seeing one.

Vote: DrippingGoofball

Second vote... I'll go with the unsupported gut read here, cause I've got nothing else right now.

Vote: Amrun

[imaginality]

@Amrun: it's not about relative reads. DGB said "there'd better be no evidence of stalling."

He stalled, by her definition. Yet she doesn't mention it.

Even to say, "Well, he stalled a bit but I still feel like he's town from what he said."

DGB says, "For Quilford: "I AM BEING ATTACKED BY SCUM AND NOBODY IS LISTENING " - this is a frustrated townie alright and

it's emphasized by the defeatist "I'm just a VT" feeling of helplessness which I think is a huge town tell.

"

If Quilford can come and say "I'm just a VT" after 7 hours and have DGB consider it 'a huge town tell',

why didn't she wait to see if kunkstar7 also did that?

Answer: because she already knew kunkstar7 was scum and had no doubt about her vote on him.

[petroleumjelly]

Day Four Vote Count #12

4 DrippingGoofball (imaginality, Empking, smallpeoples343, Tarhalindur)
2 Crazy (Ranmaru, imaginality)
2 Empking (DrippingGoofball, Quilford)
2 imaginality (DrippingGoofball, Amrun)
2 Quilford (Empking, Crazy)
2 smallpeoples343 (Ranmaru, Amrun)
1 Amrun (Tarhalindur)
1 Ranmaru (smallpeoples343)
1 Tarhalindur (Quilford)

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is August 6 at 5:00 PM PDT.

Not Voting – 0 – Nobody

Mod Note

: Now searching for a replacement for smallpeoples343.

Sigh.

[Quilford]

I've played with Quil-town before and he was much more passionate and aggressive than he is here, even if his logic was slightly off on occasion.

That was my second game ever and I was as dumb as rocks.