Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[Sotty7]

/Confirm

[Sotty7]

Vote: Chris B

Alt detected.

[Sotty7]

Whoever is scum chose to be, so:
Why did each of you choose this game / why should I believe you're town?
Who are your teammates?

I picked this game because I like playing mountainous, I have played two of these style games recently. Failed epically in one, did pretty well in the other. I like these games because it's just raw scum hunting and in my opinion a true test of your ability at this game.

Why should I believe you are town is a a filler question if ever I saw one. Poor. Also passing on the last question.

Llamarble, why did you post this “serious” vote and yet keep your RVS vote on yourself? I was under the impression you were a good player, what is your rationale for voting yourself and have you done it before?

Pie and DH copying Soico's RVS was really bizarre. I don't like it much. Klazam's vote is probably the worst of the bunch though. He also completely ignores the “super secret scum tell wagon” on Pie.

Equi defending Chris B outta the gates is also ick. What was the harm of letting him speak for himself?

People on the mith wagon: Do you disagree with me and Thor665? Who what when where and why?

What's to disagree with here? You guys didn't give a reason yet.

Damn Equi.... What's with the pole up your ass? I don't think I have ever seen you so up tight. This doesn't give me good vibes at all.

I get the feeling that the Pie wagon was built off BS by Equi in an attempt to start a relatively serious wagon early. If this is the case I want to see her reads of the people who joined her, the people who didn't and the people who out right ignored it. If it's

not

the case and there actually was a scum tell that Pie posted in the confirmation stage I want to hear it. I pretty much agreed with Llama in that I had no clue what you were doing and so just surmised there wasn't anything and it was all for REACTIONS. Either way the jig is up since you're not voting him anymore.

Socio is town. I want to say Llama is town as well but I'm going to hold off on that for a moment. Really hate Pie's defeatist attitude in this thing so far. Equi is a mystery I wanna figure out ASAP.

Marble is scum.

Vote: Llamamarble

[Sotty7]

Llamarble, why did you post this “serious”

vote

post and yet keep your RVS vote on yourself? I was under the impression you were a good player, what is your rationale for voting yourself and have you done it before?

Fixed.

[Sotty7]

Socio is town.

He's not. A player that jokes THREE TIMES that he's scum, is scum. In his brain, he is very nervous about the necessity to be deceptive, and he is releasing this tension by "jokingly" telling the truth.

So Sociopath is scum.

One down, two to go.

Okay, I'll review, I'll admit to power reading the game so I don't remember him doing this three different times. I do like seeing players claim scum in thread though. In turn, you should review your Equi town read cause she pretty much just outted herself as scum in 116. Contesting your town read of her is one of many bad bad things she posted.

Sotty7, I'm going to say the same thing to you that I said to LlamaFluff; if you didn't get it, sorry, you ain't getting it. I can't get any more specific without risking modkill. You know. That's probably getting too close. Bleh. Dun kill me plz.

Weak, weak, weak. If it wasn't a scum tell you could talk about, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T MENTION IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Why? Because it gives scum perfect excuse to semi seriously wagon someone for top secret reasons. Now I have no clue if your push on Pie was legit or what, all I have is you talking down to people “who don't get it” and you now completely ignoring the info generated from your “gambit”.

That's one thing I am starting to loath about Team Mafia already. Lolteammetacan'ttalkaboutitLol

DrippingGoofball is probably scum. Hai Goofball. No, I'm not obvtown, sorry.

lolwut

Ah, right. Sotty7, I

did

wait for him to post; his post and my evidence connected pretty strongly, so yeah, he's tooooown.

lolwut. No you didn't. But that does remind me Post 80 is extremely gloatly.

I disagree with a lot of post 112. Let's start with... the stuff about me because the other stuff will take up time and that's something I need moar of right now. So, first off, I have been giving reads as I've been getting them with as much rationale as I could reasonably provide, so don't give me crap about that.

I wasn't riding you about giving no reads, I said you were up tight and you are. This does not resemble anything like Equitown I have seen before. Normally you roll your sleeves up and get down to business to busting heads. In this game you have been abrasive, condescending and extremely OTT. Why?

Now, with regards to Sotty's point - I don't think Equi was defending me, as much as making a big deal about identifying a team.

I actually don't think she was defending you either. The gloating was too rich and natural for that.

Gonna make this a two parter. Equi marble are looking great for scum right now though.

[Sotty7]

Why should I believe you are town is a a filler question if ever I saw one. Poor. Also passing on the last question.

It's not filler because people chose their own roles and making people talk about how they made their choice has potential to be revealing.

What was revealing about Mith's answer? Actually, talk me though everyone's answer and what impression it gave you of them.

I thought I'd wagon myself to spur discussion. I haven't done it before.
And why does this bother you now as opposed to right after I did it?
I simply didn't really contemplate moving my vote when I posted my meta-thoughts.

Everyone ignored you. What does that tell you? Also did you realize that I hadn't posted until just a minute ago? I was away most of Sunday night prepping for an interview I had today which is why I was delayed to the game after my RVS.

The fact that you made a serious post while keeping a ridiculous vote on yourself suggests to me a disconnect. You followed this up with your first serious vote being a sheep of the Equi/Thor push on Pie. Yeah, I wasn't impressed.

You don't like Klazam & I think he's scum too. So why am I scum again? Your thought process feels incongruous.

Walk me though this cause I'm not getting it.

"I noticed a supersecretmetatell" is a weird BS thing to make up, but yeah if it was BS, it was townish BS (except she's stuck to it and Thor apparently also found it). Also you're complaining about Equinox complaining about the wagon you just finished complaining about. Again I am seeing 'this is something I can jab at' instead of coherenttownperspective.

This is a lot of empty words of nothing. Why is it townies BS? As for the complaining deal what are you talking about?

Lots of jibberish topped off with an OMGUS vote? Loving my vote even more now.

[Sotty7]

Thor, what was the scum tell you saw? Same as Equi now she has explained it a little?

[Sotty7]

I don't want you lynched Pie. I think you are likely town at this point.

Klazam's post 133 is giving me some town vibes as well, reads like newbtown trying to get a foot in the game. Offering up a list of reads out of the blue like that is good, but the fact "everyone else is null" is pretty poor. Reads very natural though.

[Sotty7]

So you're happy to take her explanation on face value?

[Sotty7]

I guess I could have worded that better but I think you get the gist of what I am saying.

Maybe I am wrong about Equi but my gut is crawling. What's your opinion on Marable?

[Sotty7]

I have no issue with marable's question on why did you pick this game, but his "why are you town?" question is utter crap. That's the question that underpins every post that is made in a mafia game, coming out and directly asking it defeats the purpose imo. Also, what answer do you expect to get from that question, that is in anyway informative? Mith's "I'm town because I was assigned town" is a perfect example of my that question is bunk. It's filler.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Klazam is town, I got some pings from him when I read the thread. However, post 133 just feels really genuine to me. It's only one post though.

I still need to re-read Socio but I'm juggling a couple things at once atm so that might not happen till tomorrow

[Sotty7]

DH, can you put the names of the people you're quoting in the quotes please? It's even more important when you make big posts like 150. It feels like you're talking to yourself almost.

Response to Sotty 139:

Actually, talk me though everyone's answer and what impression it gave you of them.

Ugh, I'm too tired. Anyway, I mentioned here that most of the answers weren't ultrahelpful by themselves especially because people wouldn't teamclaim.

Okay, I can give you this when coupled with a team claim. Did anyone's answers to this question give you anything to work with? Or is it all bunk now because of the lack of team claiming?

When I first saw your self vote I rolled my eyes and ignored it because it is one of the least helpful things that can happen in RVS. The joke was also bad. When you later made a serious post without moving your vote it made the self vote look even worse and really grated on me.

FOSing is about as helpful as the self vote. Why didn't you vote someone with a strong scum game? It would have been 100000% more helpful than leaving your vote on yourself. The FOS suggests a weak attempt to throw early game dirt on these people cheaply. Even more so when you didn't back it up and keep your joke vote active. Then instead of following up on anything in this post, you chose to sheep Thor and Equi over nothing. This does not smell like logical town thought progression to me.

Basically you thought I was scum who was voting for someone you found scummy (Klazam).

Scum can't bus? Also at this point my scum reads aren't connected, I had found you and Klazam independently scummy. This is a bad attempt to discredit me.

You said you disliked most of the votes on the Mith wagon.
Then you say you dislike Equinox for confronting people on the Mith wagon as to why they picked that wagon over IP's.
Confronting people on the Mith wagon is absolutely reasonable if you dislike the votes on it, so you calling Eq out for it feels jabby and nontownsensical.

Did you even read the reasons?

Mith's wagon had a lot of parroting. That always makes me cringe.
Equi asked people to disagree with her wagon or join it, yet hadn't provided ANYTHING to disagree with.

What's the problem here? Both of these things are bad.

And using BS to push an early RVS wagon seems pro-town to me; the point of that stage of the game is to get things moving for read-generation.
When I see somebody doing something I think is pro-town, I don't typically go 'deliver yo reads immediately.'

Do you think Equi was pushing a BS wagon, or does she have a scum tell she can't talk about?

[Sotty7]

I was just about to ask you were the 3rd Socio scum claim was because I could only see two. I do agree that his reasoning for picking this game + town seemed... over the top? Yeah. Hmm..

What's your opinion on Marable DGB?

[Sotty7]

Get with the program, please. Explain why you disagree with the other wagon or die.

No thanks.

Unvote
Vote: Klazam

This was the post that made me think Socio was town. His out right refusal to co-operate with Equi combined with a good Klazam vote.

[Sotty7]

Something quick as I am going to lunch:

Again, Equinox didn't like the parroting on the Mith wagon either, and was trying to interact with its members.
If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.

"WHY DIDN'T HE X" is easy scumpainting logic because it is readily wielded against townies and sounds logically sound.

I'm admittedly tempted to switch to Socio but

come on

.

[Sotty7]

Equi is right in that I haven't been able to read her successfully yet. Well unless you count MoCo but I wasn't directly playing there. It was because of this I was willing to admit I might be wrong about her when I was talking with Thor. I have downgraded her because of this plus 197 actually makes me feel quite a bit better about her now.

The appearance of a marble wagon is giving me the warm and fuzzies.

I need to read Socio's case on DGB in depth as well as an ISO of DH. Both things I have skimmed which isn't enough to form an opinion.

[Sotty7]

Equi and Klazam are two posters that have improved significantly. I like that.

I am still having a hard time digesting this DH/Mith back and forth, am I the only one? Makes me think it is scum clouded, but I need to figure out which one of them is responsible for that. Gut says DH, but we'll see how that goes when I read it all again.

Pie is probably right in that I have tunneled a little on Marble and Equi, I can accept that.

LLamaFluff/Sevei/mith/DemonHybrid/Socio/DGB. I think there is two scum in there somewhere. Gotta dig them out.

[Sotty7]

Aaaaaaactually you said:

Sotty... the voices are telling me he may be scum, but he's flown under the radar for me, much like Thor.

He's also stuck on Llamarble since his third post (the more you know)

. Upon a quick ISO, he's actually trying to scumhunt. I disagree with his earlier attacks on Equi, but other than that he's put in effort and his posts read genuine

This implies tunneling.

You do give me credit for scum hunting. But you mentioned my vote in a negative manner.

[Sotty7]

Meh, disagree but whatever. That was how I read it.

What is your take on DH v Mith?

[Sotty7]

Okay, so I have spent some time catching up with the whole DH/Fluff/mith deal and I find myself siding with the latter two in the argument.

Post 55 is a big crux of why I am finding DH scummy. I realize this has talked about a lot recently by these three players, but I think DH was trying to appease LlamaFluff slightly with his “Equi could be scum” spiel. I don't buy his explanation of “anyone could be scum” it just feels like he put that statement in there to soften the blow of him attacking Llamafluff over meta. Even more so with his reaction when Llamafluff asks him wagon Equi with him. "What? No I don't think she's scum!"

The FOS followed by a vote on Llamafluff for “twisting” is pretty poorly reasoned and a stretch. I don't like it.

DH then gets into it with both Pie and Mith after this and pretty much does nothing with his Llamafluff vote. I'm reluctant to say he isn't scum hunting because the game has barely started, but that's exactly what it feels like. He's hiding away in his defense mode and not commenting on anything else, or if he does it is in passing.

His unvote is null. Town or scum would unvote there when the reasoning for the vote has been debunked as a mistake. I really want to see what his re-read reveals because I like him a lot as scum right now.

[Sotty7]

This thread needs more Thor.

Also reading Socio's case on DGB now. For reals.

[Sotty7]

Okay, interesting. I like that.

Lets get some pressure going here. Vote number 5

Vote: DGB

Bubblebubble

[Sotty7]

I don't really like the Sotty or DH votes, can those wagons die please?

Putting DGB to L-1 yesterday would have been tech. Putting her on it today should at least get other people to comment on the wagon more, so it's at least partly tech.

Mod: Pretty sure Marble unvoted me a page or so back.

I do agree that Mith's vote could be doing something better at this point. He has voiced suspicion of both Llamarble and DGB now, I'd like to see a move to either one.

I had forgotten about DGB's V/LA which sucks because now the power wagon lags as we wait for her to come back. Not cool.

Oh, and happy day of womb escapage S

h

otty...this thread needs more S

h

otty

I was starting to worry you might have gone against all I know and picked a scum role in this game Thor. But Marble's vote on you is so poor I'm slightly eased by the sight of it. Still, who are your top reads atm? I see a lot of Mith pressure but not a lot of actual statements about his alignment.

As for my impression on mith I think he has been less than impressive so far. I don't know if that's because he got stuck in the DH back and forth or if he is really scum. I still think DGB/marble/DH are much scummier than him however.

[Sotty7]

Really?
Wait for her to come back?

I meant that in the context of wanting to see what she had to say about this wagon.

@Thor: Okay, I forgive you. Even if I don't agree RE: mith/marable.

[Sotty7]

Yeah, and you're openly disagreeing with your voices while still mentioning what they're saying as though it's a potential placeholder...stop that.

Yeah this.

Holding pattens in games suck, hopefully DH and marble can add a spark soonish.

[Sotty7]

You've just managed to combine the two posting styles I hate the most: the PBPA and the arbitrary points system. Ugh.

I hope you are going to make some conclusions come the end of this thing.

[Sotty7]

The fact that DGB is willing to attack Thor's meta reasons for voting (easy) all the while mostly ignoring Socio's case on her (hard) makes me willing to leave my vote on her.

[Sotty7]

Sevei, if your DGB read relied on your marble read, why not wait until marble was back from his V/LA and actually posting content before hammering?

Also, I have no clue who Chris B finds scummy. This is not a good thing.

[Sotty7]

Just waking up and checking in. Gut says a DH or Llamarble vote wins this for us today but I need to read over DGB again to see if that has a basis in fact. I do know I want to lynch off wagon today mostly because I like a lot of the people that lynched DGB.

But yeah, I'll be back later once I've done some reading.

[Sotty7]

From poking around in DGB's ISO I'm feeling ThorTown and ChrisBTown. I'm having extreme paranoia gut twangs with the whole Equi fighting with DGB's town read of her. I also just realized that DGB only mentions DH twice in her ISO. Once was a direct reply to him for why she hadn't posted and the other was to list him in a early scum list of hers. Strange.

I like Pie's 384 a lot actually and out of respect I won't be voting marble, at least right now. I would still like to know where his suspicion of me suddenly went. But yeah, downgraded for now.

In short, the pool of lynchees is narrowed down to: Thor, Sotty, mith, Sevei, ChrisB, LlamaFluff, and DH - just under a 30% chance if we randomly picked a player.

Out of this list the only two I would really like to lynch are DH and Llamafluff. Sevei a distant 3rd.

I would also like to contest your town read of Klazam because of the VC's. I don't think it is unusual for scum to jump on to wagons in that manner, even more considering Klazam would be newbscum. I'm just finding his push on Socio and convenient (?) V/LA to be a little suspect. It has downgraded my fledging town read of him that developed yesterday.

DH gets a lot of negative points for turning up today and going right back into bickering with mith. I'd like some reads from you at the very least, some content would also be nice.

DH/Klazam/Llamafluff are my top picks for scum right now. I tempted to give everyone on the DGB wagon a pass for today.

Vote: DH

[Sotty7]

Mod: I will be V/LA this week, probably until Monday. I will try and post if I do get the time, but it's unlikely

As in this upcoming monday or next monday?

[Sotty7]

Ugh sorry, just this weekend. Fail.

(Also happy bday

shotty

Thor!)

[Sotty7]

I'm back and will be catching up soon.

[Sotty7]

I seem to be the only one who doesn't think that scum would bus fashion Sevei did, am I missing something here? The wagon was at it's tipping point and I could see it being derailed, even more with DGB on V/LA. If DGB had flipped town that was a scummy looking hammer, I'm just having a hard time trying to figure how it works in reverse.

Thor, I've never played with Sevei before.

Pie, DGB is high on VCA's so if anyone here can manipulate the counts, it's her. I don't like clearing people just on vote counts.

And yeah, what Mith said. I'd also like to know why Llamafluff doesn't think we can (myself and marble) flip town. Seems like a chain lynch link there for no reason.

I still like my reads from post 405.

[Sotty7]

I think everyone has been calling lots of people obv town since DGB's lynch. Fluff doing it isn't wetting my appetite for him being town, scum have a little choice to blend in. I just can't let go of his DGB defending. In the white flag set up, I really doubt scum would want to bus.

As for Sevei I'm just really not seeing it. She hasn't done a lot of protown stuff this game either so I'm not going to fight the lynch, but eh. I could be projecting my own belefs onto her RE: the bussing. I just really think DH is a much better lynch this game, by far.

[Sotty7]

I'm not sure whether Thor hit his head and got amnesia, or whether he is scum.

Why did you forget the case on me when you agreed with it pages ago? It didn't exactly change.

Yes, those are the only possible reasons I asked Sotty what the case on you was.
Proceed.

That's what I thought. I didn't answer because now I want to see where DH was going with this. I thought it was pretty clear.

[Sotty7]

So why are you voting for Mith?

[Sotty7]

Really, sotty? That was completely clear to you and can't see how that can mean "Wait, what was the case on DH again? I forgot and I need a reminder"?

When you read his question in the context of our conversation it was pretty obvious that he wanted me to explain the DH case in my own words. It looked like you saw something as a slip, when it wasn't, and proceeded to jump all over it.

DH how about you do something productive for a change and give your reads on the players left. Same request to Chris.

[Sotty7]

Basically I am seeing no real genuine effort to figure out who is scum coming from you DH. All game you've done nothing but nit pick on things aren't even that scummy in the first place. It all stinks of you trying to look busy while actually not doing much of anything.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty: You guys were talking about Sevei. You mentioned me and then he asked what the case was with me. I had to double-take and ask to make sure. That's really all there is to it. Notice when Thor answered, I let it go and he let it go.

Fair enough.

Also, Sotty, I'm waiting for Sevei's scum meta. I need to do a bit of research; Sevei says she's a bad scum player and I'd like to apply that to this game.

This isn't fair enough. This is just pure lazy. I've never seen you sit back and wait like this, but then I don't think I have ever seen you as scum before.

Just a friendly reminder that, as a town,

if we can narrow down possible scum to 5 or less people, we win

.

Sotty7
Klazam
mith
DemonHybrid
Llamarble
LLamaFluff
Sevei

^so if we can all agree on the two most likely town in this group (because the other players seem to be unanimous townreads) we can just chain-lynch from there.

My vote for the two most likely town from this group are mith and Sevei.

Klazam

– What's your thoughts on Llamafluff's defense of DGB?

Llama's 503 is weak. I hate the bussing argument so much... So much so much. It's even more silly when I voted scum while he didn't. I'm not going to defend my choice to help pressure DGB and eventually lynch her. Still I am agreeing with Pie in that we're in a pretty sweet position right now. I'm willing to be lynched today as long as DH/Fluff go next. I'm reasonably confident lynching one of these two wins us the game.

But, I do really like mith's lynch order.

[Sotty7]

Llama's 503 is weak. I hate the bussing argument so much... So much so much. It's even more silly when I voted scum while he didn't. I'm not going to defend my choice to help pressure DGB and eventually lynch her. Still I am agreeing with Pie in that we're in a pretty sweet position right now. I'm willing to be lynched today as long as DH/Fluff go next. I'm reasonably confident lynching one of these two wins us the game.

This is sort of cutting out key parts of what I said...

Nope.

Your case cut down is that I bussed DGB right? In a set up where bussing is a sub optimal play, you want to say that I voted her after I had laid ground work else where. That I then

kept

my vote on her when, if I was scum, I had a good couple of reasons to bail off her and given her breathing room. Yeah, it's weak.

The rest is you fluffing it up to look better than it actually is. Trying to distract people from the obvious. It's funny how you're only bringing this up after trapping yourself in and saying it's 50/50 between myself and Marble.

I want to lynch off the DGB wagon for reasons I have stated several times. Bussing your scum buddy to a lynch on DAY ONE of a white flag game is terrible scum play. I find most of the people on the DGB wagon to be townie outside of their presence on that wagon anyway. Sevei is getting a pass because she hammered. It's that simple. I'm giving people on the DGB a pass for the day, I don't care if you don't like that because I was on that wagon. I'm not trying to tell everyone else to do the same.

I only have four lynch candidates for today. In order

DH
Amrun (Klazam replacing out and Amrun taking his place makes me much more suspicious of this slot)
Fluff
Marble

[Sotty7]

The fact he was under pressure when he did makes me grouchy, plus the fact you took the spot over your teammate. So, part meta, part annoyance maybe?

[Sotty7]

Well I am liking the info dump so far so maybe my read will change once I get a chance to digest it a little. Enthusiasm is infectious and all that.

[Sotty7]

Amrun is a good scum player + the make up of her team =

[Sotty7]

...Good point.

Still, I'm weary.

[Sotty7]

Oh hohoho... There it is.

I said I would get to it and I will. Chill. Plus did you miss the part of the day where I have been saying Klazam is a good lynch today? Just because you come in all guns blazing doesn't mean I'm going to clear you. I'm currently working on one other game before coming back here. Expect it in the next hour or so.

[Sotty7]

Okay Amrun, I initially didn't like your mith vote when I first saw it. But reading you post I realize it isn't so terrible. You voice a lot of the problems I had with mith on day one up until I re-read his exchange with DH, we just came to different conclusions.

Is your read of DH tied in completely with your mith read? Same question about your Fluff read. What do you think of DH's complete lack of presence in this game? What do you think of Fluff defending DGB on day one?

After reading your posts 562 looks really out of place. You have me reasonably high on your list and yet imply that I'm only townish because of my interactions with marble. I don't like that back tracking much.

Other than that I liked your info dump almost enough to down grade you back behind Llamafluff.

[Sotty7]

Keep in mind, IIRC, wasn't Marble the wagon opposite to DGB on D1?

Am I the only one that finds this a point in his favor?

Elaborate. I'm not really sure where you are going with this.

[Sotty7]

DH has done nothing in this game. He spent most of day one bickering with mith over his lack of an Equinox read. He had his vote on Llamafluff but did little to push it after his initial exchange with him and instead became content to just sit on it.

I don't know if he ever really found mith all that scummy, he never moved his vote there even after unvoting Llamafluff for misunderstanding something.

On top of that he starts the day by once more nit picking mith over nothing. Is he scum or not? Seriously. I have asked DH to deliver his reads on the player list, a request that was denied because he was waiting Sevei's meta that was already in the thread.

DH has been lazy, has done zero scum hunting. DGB was on his early scum list for lurking as far as I can tell. But instead of helping the town lynch her, he was busy lurking and making posts like this

To top it all off, he is posting elsewhere on the site while ignoring this game. He needs to get in here and actually scum hunt if he's town. My experiences with townDH have been much more proactive than this. The more time passes with him point blank refusing to offer up content, the more confident I become of my scum read on him.

[Sotty7]

While I'm in agreement with a lot of what Amrun says, I'm missing the argument that Sotty is town. I'm willing to hear a counter argument before I vote

lolwut?

This is the first I'm hearing that you find me scummy. How about you make a case on that instead?

[Sotty7]

How about this to rattle the boat?

Unvote: Sevei
Vote: Sotty7

I'm feeling betrayed. Why the shift to me?

[Sotty7]

Lurking... Are you serious? You're going to have to explain that one.

How exactly am I supposed to be awesome when a lot of the town seem happy to lynch down a list order rather than scum hunt? I have pushed my case on DH and he still isn't doing

anything

. I have responded to accusations against me and been trying to find scum this whole game. I could just hold up a mirror and your accusations would hit more at home being aimed at you. Where's your scum hunting? Where's your awesome? I'm seeing a distinct lack of either.

Ridiculous... This ksdhflsuh game.

EDIT: This is to Thor's 598

[Sotty7]

Yeah nerves have been hit, you're voting me for a shit reason that is applied equally to yourself.

What wagon are we talking about here? DGB?

If

there is scum on her wagon I'd say it's mith simply from PoE and because I liked a lot of what Amrun posted when she breezed into the game. Everyone else on the wagon is a strong to medium town read for me. Off wagon are where the scummy people are:

Llamarble: Still not happy with his play from yesterday. Nothing he has done today has moved me much, but the VCA does make him look less likely scum at this point.
ChrisB: Sadly I agree with Equi that this guy is prob town still he's done Jack and shit all game.
LlamaFluff: Defends DGB yesterday and then claims today scum bussed her. Only votes me after backing himself into a corner and his case is poor. I don't necessarily find him scummy for the weak case, but for defending DGB, hell yeah.
DH: Mr Active lurker. Covered him.
Amrun: Klazam was scummy and I wish he had stuck around to answer questions before vanishing. Amrun is actually looking pretty good as a replacement though. Her mith vote is well reasoned and I can see where she is coming from. This slot is falling on my scum list.

I have lots of town reads right now but claiming that I am lurking is crap.

[Sotty7]

My case on Sotty relies primarily on DrippingGoofball.

She gave scum reads on Sociopath (328) and Thor (319).

She gave town reads on Llamarble once, (post 183), Equinox once, (305) and Sotty7 THREE TIMES(post 166) (post 178) (post 183).

Would scum really try to clear town for no good reason?

Can't defend this.

The argument was made earlier that one scummy thing done by Dripping Goofball was to make the 'alt' argument against me. I agree with this.

On that note: Sotty's post 20:

Vote: Chris B

Alt detected.

Perhaps you should re-read the start of the game again?

I voted you and accused you of being an alt for two reasons. One, if you were an alt I wanted to pressure you into revealing your true account and two; if you were new to the site, jumping into a high profile game I wanted to get a read on you ASAP. This is backed up by me being annoyed that Equi jumped in and protected you right off the bat. I speicfically wanted

your

reaction. But once I realized who you were and who's team you were on I realized you were prob town.

In the same breath, the difference between me and DGB in this situation is that once I realized you were a new player, I completely dropped the alt accusation. I don't mention it after my first vote on you. This is a big difference.

With regards to Sotty7 being the fifth voter on DGB. I've never liked the argument that scum are more likely to bus on a certain number vote than another one. So I'm not comfortable wth the reverse either, and the fifth vote being the obviously town position. There's still time in there to climb down on a vote.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. No one has said that because I was the 5th voter I'm obvtown.

On top of that, she's ignored posts of mine twice now. This post here isn't the first time I've pointed out that the 'alt detected' vote. Also, I've already addressed the scum daytalk thing.

?

The first you just said that I also commented on you being a possible alt. You make no conclusions or ask me no questions, what am I supposed to say? And what's this rabble about day talk? I read the discussion and didn't see a need to comment on it, I was happy with your explaination.

If you want me to comment on something specific you should ask me. I can't read minds, though I wish I could.

[Sotty7]

Thor: My mith scum read is wholly dependent on yesterdays actions and is only something I would be happy to lynch on if we flip both DH and Fluff as town. His echoing of me though a lot of the game has gotten my back up, but once I re-read the DH/mith battle of words I just come away believing that DH is scum nitpicking on town mith.

I understand you seem to have your top scumreads off the wagon, but you're not addressing the likelihood of why we should look off the wagon. I'm of a pretty strong belief that at least one scum bussed. Besides mith's attempts I haven't seen anyone try to disabuse that notion, and though mith has laid out his reasons pretty well I, personally, suspect they are silly and wrong - possibly at the same time. You appear to just be looking at top suspects in a general sense as opposed to looking for connections pertaining to DGB or to her wagon, thoughts?

My DH read is dependent on a lot of factors, one of which being his lack of a presence in the thread as DGB went down

My Llamafluff read is dependent on him defending DGB

My Klazam read was hinged on his reaction to the sudden DGB wagon that popped up

So I'm not getting what you mean here when I'm not using DGB's wagon. I'm just not looking for bussers.

[Sotty7]

D1VC11:

DGB (7): Socio, Thor, IP, Equinox, Sotty, mith, Sevei
Thor (2): Llamarble, DGB
Llamarble (1):, ChrisB
Sevei (1): LlamaFluff


Not Voting: DH, Klazam

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

I have looked at this final count so many times today and I'm still having a hard time seeing a busser. Even if there is a bus here, it's only likely to be one player and it's a player we don't need to lynch to win the game. Hence my focus off wagon.

When you break it down, 4/5 people off wagon are people I would lynch compared to 1/6 people on the wagon. And that 1 is way, way down on my list right now. It's not rocket science, it's just how may reads have fallen.

[Sotty7]

In any other game I might be willing to entertain it. In this game, not so much, I think it is bunk.

But even if we weren't in a White flag game I wouldn't auto suspect a bus because of how Goof's wagon formed and the people on it. I get good feelings from them. I think the meta of this site makes people extremely paranoid about potential bussers and instead of objectively looking for scummy behavior. Bussing is the first thing considered: "At least one scum bussed" is something you tend to always hear after a scum flip. I'm not sure just how often that ends up ringing true though.

All this coming from someone who has bussed as scum when it suited my needs and once even by accident. Bussing as scum is hard work, but knowing that you need to get town to mislynch 4 times in a row without being able to buss again and having to actively protect your buddy is a hard thing to swallow even for me.

[Sotty7]

But why didn't you wait for Llamafluff to respond before jumping in?

[Sotty7]

Actually reading the exchange again I see Equi basically asked Amrun to explain the supposed misrep. Still, there was little need to make post 641 before Fluff had a chance to respond first.

Reading Llama's explanation I can see what he is saying even if I don't like the pairing theory. Amrun stepping in raises an eyebrow though.

[Sotty7]

So Amrun you have a really strong town read on Fluff?

[Sotty7]

I suppose the question is somewhat obvious, but why should I remove this action and put it on someone else?

Because you're wrong. It's really that simple.

You say I make good points but you ignore them anyway. I used my RVS vote to figure out where you came from, “Alt detected” was a specific trigger phrase I threw out to push your buttons. Equi unhinged my plan and that annoyed me but her read was probably right and after she explained it so I completely dropped out out of my scum suspects.

If you are grouping me with DGB in that I was using your Alt status as a point against you why do I never mention it again after my first post? That doesn't fit your claim of me trying to lynch you or discredit you on that basis. DGB on the other hand kept bringing up your lurking and mentioning your townperson status though out the day.

I'm not guilty of that in the slightest. I realized you weren't an Alt and moved on. But this isn't necessary a town tell. I really think scum would have done the same, it's just that DGB didn't. Maybe she thought railing against an unlikely lynch would get her brownie points or that she was annoyed you were pseudo cleared, I don't know.

As for DGB calling me town, well yeah she did. Nothing I can do about that. At first she had down as scum though, but it became clear who had the mometum in the towns eye between myself and Marble she flipped. I'm not the only one she called town, does this tell apply to Equi for example? If you remember Equi and DGB fought over DGB town read of her. What do you think about that?

As for DGB not being a good player, I don't agree. While she plays an unorthodox style, she knows what she is doing. She is just as likely to have her buddies in her scum reads as her town ones. To be honest the only reason she was lynched on day one in this game was because she got caught a little by team meta. I don't think I have ever seen DGB get lynch on day one before.

[Sotty7]

I am tempted by a Fluff vote at this point. However I would be voting him based on his DGB defense day one and not anything that Pie/Equi have been pushing on him and Amrun in the recent posts. I'm will to cut Amrun a little slack here. I still think she should have waited but I can see her just reacting to the post as town as well as scum.

Pie, what about a DH vote here? His vote on Chris B is terrible combined with the rest of his play. Why so reluctant to vote here?

I think we're getting the point of needing a flip and having to come together to wagon someone up. I feel like everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room RE: DH right now. But whatever, let me know if this lynch isn't going to happen today and I will find something productive to do with my vote instead.

[Sotty7]

<3

[Sotty7]

Chris B is town on meta + interactions with DGB end of day one. It's that simple. He also has the best vote on me out of the three, case wise at least. I get the sense that he is trying and it feels genuine if off base.

DH, who else is scum outside Chris?

[Sotty7]

Couple of things

Thor post 622, no reaction?

Llamafluff is stalling. So is Thor. More on this once I hear back from the mods on how far I can take this point.

Chris v DH is the battle of the e-penis and not at all compelling one way or the other. Please stop drowning the game in these kind of bickering posts. Going back and forth accusing each other of not reading? Ugh.

Chris, can you give me the simple bullet points as to why you think DH is scum?

DH, you keep throwing away peoples town reads on Chris because it's not what you want to hear. There is real little you can do about this and it's akin to screaming at a brick wall. I haven't liked Chris' play though the whole game, but it doesn't change the fact he is very likely town. It sucks for you as scum because he looks like a tasty mislynch, but it's not happening. Find another vote.

[Sotty7]

I have decided I'm willing to compromise on a Sotty lynch, though it's still not optimal.

Llamarble or mith is who should be swinging for real.

Then lets do this, swing your vote over and lets see what happens.

[Sotty7]

DH and Sevei both need to be doing something better with their votes, like yesterday.

[Sotty7]

"better" enough for you and Thor?

Much.

Thor: It should be obvious but the Sevei lynch ain't happening today. Also I debunked your reasons for voting me and you have nothing to say about it? You're barely pushing me at all and it reads weak.

[Sotty7]

Okay I might be mistaken, bullet points on your suspicion of me? Doesn't have to be detailed.

[Sotty7]

Okay this is where we're at right now:

DH (4): mith, Sotty, Equinox, Chris
mith (3): Amrun, LlamaFluff, DH
Amrun (2): Llamarble, IP
Sotty (1): Thor
Llamarble (1): Sevei

I forgot Chris unvoted me, so Amrun shouldn't move her vote to me like I said. Unless of course she really does want me lynched, but I don't think that is true.

Thor your stalling looks even more obvious now wouldn't you say?

Sevei needs to move her vote but I already touched on that.

Looking at this vote count I am will to compromise with a mith or a Amrun vote. Lets see some fireworks.

[Sotty7]

Will = willing.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty

1. Gut.
2. Reaction Fishing.
3. Vote shaking up.

It's an invincible case.

Don't make me shave your beard...

Let me put it this way Thor, do you think this game needs a flip? If yes, what are you doing about it? If no, why not?

[Sotty7]

Try harder...?

[Sotty7]

Mod: Aren't we supposed to have a deadline? When is it?

[Sotty7]

Because DH is the top wagon...? Kinda confusing I guess because the mod posted a skewed vote count.

You're on the list because I still think it is possible Klazam was chainsawing DGB and your wagon is viable. It's not really rocket science at this point. I've compromised and said I would be willing to lynch mith even though he was on the DGB wagon. I will say that if a Fluff wagon suddenly pops up, I'd lynch him over you and mith in a heartbeat.

So how about you Amrun, what key points do you think we need to discuss before settling on a lynch today?

[Sotty7]

I was looking directly at the vote count at the time, you had two votes so you were viable. Now I have two votes and now

I'm

viable.

As far as I'm concerned this day is long overdue a flip. I believe I discussed your vote on mith and it is part of the reason I'm willing to vote that way should it come to it. I don't remember your points on marble off hand so I'll look back.

[Sotty7]

Okay post 543 echoes a lot of what I said about marble during day one so I don't find it bad, I just have upgraded others above marble in my scum reads (DH, Fluff, you/mith) I was actually thinking that the Llama mix up might point towards either Fluff or marble, I can't stick it on one or the other until we have a flip. I will agree he has become almost a non factor today, but I still think DH/Fluff are were we need to be looking.

So I guess I'll ask you what I was asking Thor, where's the fire. If you want people to talk about your mith and marble points why aren't you asking people about it?

[Sotty7]

Thor is being... I don't know what, but he has no case basically and it's gut.

Llama's case is that I bussed DGB

Chris' case was that I bussed DGB but he actually spent time linking me to DGB in other ways outside of my vote on her. He was wrong, but not as wrong as Thor and Fluff. I don't know why Amrun or mith suspect me. They have both been pretty vague about that. I think I am null/town to everyone else though.

Slow game is slow...

[Sotty7]

Fair enough Amrun.

And Fluff I'm starting to think you are just screwing with me now. Any explanation for the switch?

[Sotty7]

Mod: Your last three vote counts have errors. The one above should have DH with four votes. Vote count 12 has me listed with 3 votes when I have only two. Vote count 11 has DH listed with 3 votes when he has 4 and me listed with 2 votes when I have one.

[Sotty7]

Sotty, that wasn't my case. My point was that your position on the vote didn't clear you, and that you may have bussed, not that I'm certain you bussed. I think the stronger point about you is that DGB tried so hard to clear you.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said you spent time linking to me to DGB outside my vote on her. I just didn't go into great detail, like with the others.

Equi, I feel your pain and I have been trying to drag this town to lynch the last couple of days but I'm getting little to no support. There are quite a lot of people stalling and it is making the whole game state drag which makes putting time in here a damn chore. I would love to wagon Fluff up with you right now, but I really don't think he has the support to lynch. If enough people come in and say they would switch votes, I will as well. However, I have worked hard to get DH up to only L-2 and I don't want to break down that wagon with out knowing for a fact we are going to push Fluff to at least L-1.

So I'm basically begging you here, either drum up support for Fluff quick, or join the DH wagon and finally get someone to L-1 here. Your only saving grace for DH at this point is that he is making a poor case on Chris B. Is that really enough to stop his lynch?

Mod: can we get a prod on Sevei please?

[Sotty7]

Thor, I take it all back. <3

[Sotty7]

I understand it's a comprise.

Also Babyspice flipped scum, but then I don't need to tell you that.

[Sotty7]

I hate this game.

DH's team can take a running jump for all I care. Saying I avoided contact with Sevei is lolsy when I have defended her hammer practically all day.

More later when I have woken up properly.

[Sotty7]

I hate this game.

DH's team can take a running jump for all I care. Saying I avoided contact with Sevei is lolsy when I have defended her hammer practically all day.

More later when I have woken up properly.

This smells ever so slightly of a "caught for the wrong reasons" hissy fit. Nothing definitive, though.

I was just extremely crabby when I woke up this morning, though I wouldn't say it is a hissy fit It's annoyance at this line of reasoning and at this game.

I'd do Sotty,

That made me giggle though

[Sotty7]

My team's case on Sotty:

Sotty tries to read the DGB case but just shows up and says it's interesting and votes for pressure. She avoids stating what she agrees with, however. Posts #210, #251, #252.

Sotty avoids contact with Sevei. She has contradictory reads and tries to line up future lynches. See posts #405 (the "Sevei is a distant third" comment), #447, #449 (lays off suspicion of Sevei)

Lastly, Sotty pushes the idea that lynching off the wagon was the best decision, but was backed by an illogical argument. DGB's end-of-the-day scum interactions would leave scum wanting to control the amount of suspicion placed on them. It'd be likely if the end of DGB's wagon had 1 or 2 scum on it. #538, #623 and #625 supports this.

They also say that Amrun is town. Can't discuss much because of the ongoing Team Mafia game, however; it has to do with Klazam and Amrun's role picks.

^ Read into this later when Pick Your Power ends. I don't want to risk a modkill.

Pretty sure I have defended the first and last points to death. The second point is funny when you actually read this post in context.

"Out of this list the only two I would really like to lynch are DH and Llamafluff. Sevei a distant 3rd."

I'm as about as interested in DH's team thoughts as I was in Ythill's VCA. Maybe I'm just bitter because my team aren't offering up that much help for me, but I'd like to play with people in this game. By all means use stuff your teammates say, but to build cases based on it just seems pretty weak to me.

"Well I didn't believe it but my teammate..."

[Sotty7]

If you don't believe it, isn't it a pointless info dump?

[Sotty7]

If you don't believe it, isn't it a pointless info dump?

Seriously? o_O

I am L-1 and you don't want me to relay any and all info?

ANY information is good. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because it's against you.

I'm pretty sure you're scum, so I think you're stalling. Otherwise, where was all this juicy info days ago?

[Sotty7]

I'm also not voting Sevei. Equi wants to see the replacement but will put the slot at L-2 in a town that is dying for a lynch. I don't understand that.

As for how hard is DGB to read, I'd give her an 8/9 out of ten. She is one of the hardest players on these boards to read in my opinion. Sometimes I will think she is out and out town, but she flips scum and then in reverse. Your ponies should know this as well after our recent experience with DGB. Normally I tend to leave her out to be sorted by the night, if she is town she will be night killed soon enough. I ignored this question when you first asked it because it's pretty pointless now with her dead, but whatever. The fact you're asking it again suggests it's important somehow, I can't see it how.

Only skimmed so far this morning. I'll be back later to read for real.

[Sotty7]

lol I just realized I read your question wrong Equi 2/3 out of ten for reading DGB, not 8/9

Wake up fail.

[Sotty7]

mith isn't scum, of that I am pretty sure of right now, anyone else paying attention should come to the same conclusion.

I need to rework my suspects again which right now feel all over the place. I'm not lynching Sevei or mith today. Will lynch DH, Fluff and possibly Amrun. I need to do some reading.

[Sotty7]

lol I just realized I read your question wrong Equi 2/3 out of ten for reading DGB, not 8/9

Hmm... That explains some of your behavior toward DrippingGoofball, at least. Why did you ask her about Llamarble on Day 1?

I think it was because she was around and posting at the same time I was. It was an attempt to get into a dialogue with her and she out right asked me who we're lynching the post before. I don't think she had commented on marble before I asked her either. So all of those reasons are why I asked her.

I ignored this question when you first asked it because it's pretty pointless now with her dead, but whatever. The fact you're asking it again suggests it's important somehow, I can't see it how.

The first time I asked it, it was addressed to DemonHybrid...

I thought you addressed it to the game as a whole? I might be thinking of a different question then.

What terrible wagon choices.

Then do something about it?

Equi, Llamafluff also ignored my point that mith is pretty much confirmed town at this point as he wants to chain me, Sevei and mith. After thinking about it I have decided to lend you my vote. I know it just moves Fluff to the same position DH was in but I'm hoping mith moves over as well to build some momentum.

Unvote, Vote: Llamafluff

I'm working on a re-read today. Hopefully it won't take me too long.

[Sotty7]

What Equi said.

If we're making deals I have another to add to that lynch list.

If Fluff doesn't end the game and then you guys do lynch me, lynch DH next. If Fluff/DH doesn't contain one scum I will be really, really, really surprised.

[Sotty7]

I'm willing to go first. For some reason people can't get over the fact that I was on DGB wagon. There is a semi decent case on me and I think I am becoming much more of a sticking point than DH, if I go then Thor and Fluff will actually have to put in work rather than repeating I am scum. Amrun is also slowly craving a path towards my lynch, add on Chris B and we near on have ourselves a lynch.

Get me out of the way then work though DH/Fluff/marble

[Sotty7]

If it's a bluff, call it.

[Sotty7]

Thor I'm serious. We have needed a lynch for the past week almost, there is quite a lot of out lying support for my lynch. You're coasting and have been all game. I'm getting real sick of it.

[Sotty7]

Trying to get on with this re-read and right away found this gem.

@iPie: Why so many questions?

I don't know. I think because if I act all casual towards my wagon and ask questions that look like I'm scumhunting, they won't find out I'm scum. Maybe if Equinox would quit bussing so damn early I wouldn't have to resort to using such methods.

Considering DGB pushing on Socio for claiming scum in the thread, this post sticks out like a sore thumb now. DGB completely ignored this, why?

[Sotty7]

Pie does make a good post later on here that makes me a little more content with my town read on him. But when I read post 42 I had a huge wtf moment I had to post it up.

Unvote, Vote: DH

I'm sorry Equi, the more I read day one the more I remember how much I agreed with Llamafluff. Also DH has found the time to post in his other game this morning and yet is content to lurk here. He has to be scum here... Just has to be.

[Sotty7]

omg finally!

[Sotty7]

I swear if you flip town DH I am going to be very unhappy.

[Sotty7]

Three, but we only need to lynch two scum to win.

[Sotty7]

lolwut

After all that no hammer?

[Sotty7]

What? How was that opportunistic?

I started re-reading day one all over again and switch my vote back to a player who I have been trying to lynch ALL DAMN DAY. You really thought he would be run up that quick? That's bullshit Amrun. Pure bullshit.

[Sotty7]

singer, when you replaced in did you get a role PM sent to you?

[Sotty7]

Thor just wants to bag me. I'm starting to realize that and coming to terms with it.

I take back when I said you were coasting "all game". You actually pushed pretty well against DGB from the start. It's day two you have started to coast. You being on or off my wagon has nothing to do with the fact you gave up on making cases awhile back.

[Sotty7]

singer, when you replaced in did you get a role PM sent to you?

No.

I'll have to check my old PMs for the ones we got originally, why?

Because that fact we only have to lynch two scum is clear in that PM. Other replacements, did you get a PM, yes or no?

[Sotty7]

I wouldn't have if you weren't all "woe is me, lynch me to help town" before that, sotty.

How does that make my DH vote opportunistic? Was I supposed to give up completely and vote myself?

I'm still going to scum hunt until I die, even if I am fine with being the first lynch.

[Sotty7]

Wait we didn't get roles PMs only alignments.

HEY BUTTONS CAN I HAS MY ROLE PM NOW.

This seriously can't be true.

[Sotty7]

Amrun, did you get a PM from the mod when you replaced in?

EDIT: I doubt he can answer.

[Sotty7]

Unvote

...For the moment.

[Sotty7]

Actually, wtf,

vote: DemonHybrid

I don't buy your whole "woe is me I can't hammer myself because that's against my 'town' wincon" act...oh hey, scum, it's apparently against YOUR wincon.

This is such a crap reason to vote DH FYI.

It's also noted how

quickly

you put DH back at L-1 after I pick up on a glaring problem with your faketwilight posts.

Suddenly I am very very gun shy.

[Sotty7]

Okay, what are your other reasons?

[Sotty7]

Okay thanks Amrun. Does slightly take away my initial strong feeling.

Still singer, I just read your ISO like five times. I see no reason for DH scum outside this no self hammer crap. You have made me very nervous, I want to see some details.

[Sotty7]

Let me think about it Fluff. I need to get back to reading the game again as well seeing as I closed that tab as soon as I thought DH was lynched.

I was tempted to throw my vote on singer right away when I read her twilight posts because I remembered the PM being very clear all but one scum needed to be lynched. But then seeing as she was replacing a teammate maybe role PMs weren't sent and Amrun backed that up.

Still the "he's been my number one suspect for awhile now" seems to be pretty extremely misrepping her time in thread. Combined with the terribad reasoning for DH I just got very squimish.

I'm going to eat supper and do some thinking.

[Sotty7]

I guess the difference is Thor, I felt you were trying to lynch DGB. I never really felt you push me apart when I initially pushed you on my vote. Which is kinda backwards, no?

[Sotty7]

Guess I took too long to think. Not terribly upset over a singer lynch however, here's hoping for a game over.

[Sotty7]

Just checking in to say I am going to be reading this whole beast probably tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

Llamafluff what's your Amrun town read from? Is it simply because you don't see who she could be partnered with?

I'm starting to think both Fluff and DH are town which hurts my head. My gut wants to vote Amrun but I'm going to finish my read before I do anything. This includes taking another deeper look at Llamarble and mith.

Thor and Chris B are still town though.

[Sotty7]

Not really feeling the early marble hate today. It seems centered around his little chart and from what I can see he isn't trying to force anyone into following what the chart says, clear explanations of the pairs and lack there of would be nice but I don't think he is scummy for posting it up. Post 1100 is awful because of this. Marble also defended me yesterday when he could have easily piled on and called me scum. Maybe I'm nuts, but I am starting to lean slightly more town for now.

This post by mith was one of the first things that bothered me, but I couldn't put my finger on it until later.

First, it was just his lack of vote and his reasoning for it which I didn't like. Lack of vote is more often a scumtell than not -- however, I'm not dumb enough to think that this is anything but a nulltell in the hands of mith.

But it did make me pay attention to his posts more closely.

Reading back, I am finding the bold strange. You quoted mith's post 181 where he addresses DH about the whole Equi back and forth. What exactly do you mean about mith's lack of vote and his reasoning for it? At the time of this post mith was voting for DH and this was just a response to him.

[Sotty7]

Okay then, I'm confused. Here is the whole post for reference:

DemonHybrid: Fair enough if you would have spoken up on suspecting Equinox, but wouldn't you also speak up (before now, when you have been asked about her directly) if you found her townish? That whole exchange with LlamaFluff reads like you were trying to defend Equinox without actually coming out and committing to a town read (in case things went south?).

First in 51, we have you responding to LlamaFluff's vote by questioning his stance on meta; the follow-up in 55 then asks (paraphrasing) "Well if you think it's Equinox-IP, why aren't you picking on IP??".

So that's part of what was odd about that exchange. Then you apparently take offense when he implies you agree with him about Equinox - again without actually saying "No, I think she's town", followed by some "I FOSed you and you didn't respond" sulking. Meh.

(I'm not sure which point you're talking about with "I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person." - if you're talking about your post 45 point 2, I'm still lost, because you're saying you have the right to agree to a point which was never made. If you're talking about some other point, clarify.)

DrippingGoofball: I'm loving a DemonHybrid/Llamarble/Equinox group right now; they were my top three independently, but DH/Equinox makes a lot of sense given the above, and I quite like Llamarble/Equinox for the sheeping, plus the end of 179: "If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.".

This post by mith was one of the first things that bothered me, but I couldn't put my finger on it until later. First, it was just his lack of vote and his reasoning for it which I didn't like. Lack of vote is more often a scumtell than not -- however, I'm not dumb enough to think that this is anything but a nulltell in the hands of mith. But it did make me pay attention to his posts more closely.

This dancing around Equinox is, and continues to be, mith's only point against DH that has any validity whatsoever (except being off the DGB wagon, which occurred later).

mith's case on DH then shifts to attacking him for attacking Llama for attacking one out of a possible scumpair (in which the facts on both sides were all sorts of screwy).

This is quite ironic to me, and something I pointed out to Klazam, which led him to ask mith some questions about the Equinox/DH relationship according to mith.

In order for DH to be scum according to mith, it seems to me, Equinox would HAVE to be scum. Mith attacks DH for "lying" about his read on Equinox, but in this scenario, DHscum would ONLY have motivation to lie about Equinoxscum if they were scumbuddies.

So if this is the suspicious behavior mith "keyed in on," and he puts Equinox in his supposed scumteam speculation and suspects Equinox, why wouldn't he attack Equinox? In the very LEAST, why would he not take this as an impetus to look more closely at Equinox's play as a way to inform his DH read?

The whole attack on DH by mith reads to me as scum-motivated. It doesn't look to me like mith made the attack with the intent of determining alignment, and the way his read progressed seems fabricated to me. He was going for a mislynch, and was always going for a mislynch; I think a townie in this situation would have done more to look at the DH-Equinox link, but scummith would not have because he wanted to keep Equinox open as a possible mislynch later on.

[snip]
Reading through SocioPath's DGB case... mostly seems to lack substance (and has that distinctive OMGUS feel), until the last two points (about DGB trying to negate a town read on SP by calling it a null tell; and the DGB/Equinox obvtown link). Of the leading wagons, I would still feel more confident switching to Llamarble.

(LlamaFluff drops down The List™ to "solidly town" status. Still not sure what was bothering the gut, but it's gone now.)

This is a humongous pile of fencesitting which is pretty predictably followed by a turnaround. When mith posted this, the DGB wagon didn't have much weight. Here, he treated it very lightly, but did you notice his attempt to discredit Socio's case? I did. "Oh, case is bad, moving on, nothing to see here folks." But he doesn't get into the specifics of it because most of the case actually DOES have substance - and mith himself changed his mind on this later.

This is followed by even more fencesitting and another completely fabricated read progression. Highlights from progressing posts:

"Sticking with DemonHybrid for now, but I'm starting to talk myself into DGB-scum."

One last attempt to discredit socio, and then, "Sotty and Thor, point taken about the DH vote not going anywhere." (puts DGB at L-1, wagon is obviously a go by then)

With DGB at L-1: "DGB seems to be grasping for a lifeline with the Thor stuff."

Then, he gives a "summary" of why he thinks DGB is scum.

It REEKS of a late bus. Absolutely reeks.

And then this:

Ooh, great catch. Anyone know whether scum have day talk or not? I don't see anything in the OP about day talk, so I'm inclined to switch to Chris B ASAP if they do (and likewise put him solidly in the town camp if not).

So fake. This supposed "slip" from OOOOOOOBVTOWN ChrisB is just silly. His not knowing about this is just more indication of that.

VOTE: mith

More on other players to come.

Your first two sentences seem to be directly referring to the post you quoted. But if what you are saying is true, you simply quoted 181 because it gave you the willies? Was there any other reasoning? I could be reading this wrong, but it's bugging me.

And yes, I am aware that you don't suspect Marble simply for the chart, your reasoning pretty much follows mine from day one. But I am saying that the chart isn't scummy.

[Sotty7]

My read on Fluff is dependent on nothing. He's town. I see his defense of DGB as a towntell more than anything. Fluffscum would bus there, in my opinion.

What's your personal experience with Fluffscum?

Ipie, however, suffers from some severe confirmation bias.

Hey, mudslinging!

How's THAT for confirmation bias?

Should I pretend that you don't? You twist everything someone you suspect does to be scummy, often blatantly misinterpreting the posts and intents of the posts to do so.

I, however, believe these to be genuine mistakes in your case.

What about Pie's poor reads made you think he was suffering from confirmation bias rather than scum pushing a bad line of thought? Confirmation bias suggests that you strongly believe Pie to be town at this point in the game. I don't really see you following though with that train of thought by declaring him town at any point. This post feels like you know more about his alignment than you should and that you are trying to appeal to his better nature while at the same time discrediting his reads.

Can you explain why your read of me went from town to an acceptable compromise lynch? I'm talking about post 730, which I believe was before I agreed to my lynch. (941)

Why did you drop your mith case? If it is a particular answer from him can you point me to the post number? Would you lynch mith today? Why?

What is your current read of Thor? Of Equi?

Talk me though the following progression:

I am now willing to vote singer. I could have been wrong about Sevei.

I want to hammer but I suppose I'll be good and wait for singer's (probable) final post(s).

Singer is probablly town; I was right about Sevei.

These posts are back to back in your ISO

I basically disagree with every single point of mith's "case" against Fluff.

What points are the worst and why?

Amrun's best posting comes with her rationale for her mith vote in her first serious post of the game. Even with my sticking point I question her on, the rest of the reasoning feels very solid to me. However, after that I'm seeing extremely little that I like from her posting. Her initial compromise on me comes seemingly from nowhere and the flux surronding some of her other reads are troubling (Thor/Equi/Pie/mith).

I have no real understanding why she dropped her mith vote/case and the fact she is still keeping him as a possible second lynch doesn't sit right with me. I was almost ready to give her the benefit of the doubt until I saw her posturing around the singer hammer. I see absolutely no reason for Amrun to make post 1051 as town.

Vote: Amrun

Still need to look at mith/fluff/marble

[Sotty7]

This is the first time I address Ipie in my big info dump - this is what I say about him, and this never once changes. Sotty, you are attempting to twist this into a contradiction that just is not there.

Yeah I saw that. my point I'm trying to make is why is Pie town to you with bad reads? Why isn't he scum trying to push mislynches?

Your use of “conformation bias” when talking with him is so out of place. It is a phrase I associate with town, because the whole point of being scum is not to display conformation bias. I think you were trying to subdue him by calling him town (not very strongly) while discrediting his reads until you could kill him.

I mean unless you can show your working as to why Pie was town independent of his reads, cause I would really like to see that.

mith by POE is acceptable. Does that mean you think the team is Llamarble+mith?

About you, I think my thought process on you has been fairly transparent - not entirely, but it is not as obscure as you are making it out to be. In the early game, I found you to be pretty townish because I totally followed, understood, and agreed with your attacks on Llamarble, and this continues to be the biggest point in your favor. However, after I replaced in, you made some sloppy attacks that I thought were closing to mudslinging than scumhunting - for example, you suggesting that I replaced into Klazam's slot because I am a better scum player than Klazam, which I quickly broke down as a bad argument, and also you telling me if I didn't want DH or Sevei lynched, I should "do something about it" when I was clearly doing all I could, but also your continual attacks on Thor for coasting when I don't think he was. You don't seem very committed to your reads, either, which concerns me. Yesterday, I was willing to lynch you as a compromise simply because the other top candidates were DH and Sevei, both of whom I have very strong town reads, and if you were to die and flip town, it would aid me in getting Llamarble lynched at the very least. How is that hard to understand? Three townreads get strung up... you choose the townread that is the weakest to vote for.

If it was transparent why would I be asking?

Let me break it down to show you exactly what I mean.

Early Amrun puts me as her second town read under only obvtown Chris B. I can almost understand you think the fact your replaced in is a poor attack. Personally I still think it has a little merit, but it's a generally unfair point against you that you can't really defend and I'm not going to push it. It's a lot of weak meta, but there you go.

What I didn't like was your reaction to me as I poked you. Suddenly I was pushing vague suspicion and that was scummy. The reality was Klazam attacked Socio in what looked an awful lot like a chainsaw for DGB to me. The minute he starts to get real pressure he bails and out of everyone on your team, you slide in. I know your a very component scum player so I voice my concerns. Your posting makes it sounds like this weak meta is my only reasoning for suspecting you when we both know that wasn't true.

The fact was, if anyone was pushing vague suspicion, it was you.

Spoiler: back and forth with me

Sotty, I'd like to see actual thoughts on all that I've said instead of pushing a vague suspicion on me that doesn't even make sense. You're only town by virtue of me suspecting Llamarble, to be honest.

Oh hohoho... There it is.

I said I would get to it and I will. Chill. Plus did you miss the part of the day where I have been saying Klazam is a good lynch today? Just because you come in all guns blazing doesn't mean I'm going to clear you. I'm currently working on one other game before coming back here. Expect it in the next hour or so.

I didn't mean GET IT UP RIGHT NOW RAWRRRRRRRRR. Just saying, eventually, I would like a response from you specifically.

Okay Amrun, I initially didn't like your mith vote when I first saw it. But reading you post I realize it isn't so terrible. You voice a lot of the problems I had with mith on day one up until I re-read his exchange with DH, we just came to different conclusions.

Is your read of DH tied in completely with your mith read? Same question about your Fluff read. What do you think of DH's complete lack of presence in this game? What do you think of Fluff defending DGB on day one?

After reading your posts 562 looks really out of place. You have me reasonably high on your list and yet imply that I'm only townish because of my interactions with marble. I don't like that back tracking much.

Other than that I liked your info dump almost enough to down grade you back behind Llamafluff.

My read of DH is tied in with my read of marble. If mith were to die and flip town, I'd have some re-evaluating to do.

My read on Fluff is dependent on nothing. He's town. I see his defense of DGB as a towntell more than anything. Fluffscum would bus there, in my opinion.

My post 562 is misleading. I didn't mean you are scum indepedent of the marble interaction.

However, the reason I have the degree of townread I have on you is due to my suspicion of Marblescum. Were he to flip town, you'd lose some town points but not necessarily gain any scumpoints. I would re-evaluate you and other's cases on you if that were to transpire.

After all this I'm town to you until suddenly I'm a compromise lynch.

Meaning you want me to make a towncase on Sotty? I've said all I'm going to say on that matter barring another flip.

And yes, sotty, llama is one of my top townreads. I posted a list a couple of pages ago.

I have decided I'm willing to compromise on a Sotty lynch, though it's still not optimal.

Llamarble or mith is who should be swinging for real.

Post 659 was made on Sat and post 730 on the Monday. I don't go after Thor for coasting until next week so that's not a good reason for why you were willing to switch to one of your top town reads. Also if that was such a scummy thing for me to have done, why didn't you call me on it?

Also LOL for you trying to claim I wasn't committed to my reads? Are you serious? DemonHybrid ring any bells?

If I missed anything, let me know.

Yup you did. I want your personal experience playing with Fluffscum.

[Sotty7]

Eh... not impressed with Sotty's case. Agree that 1051 is a little weird, but otherwise Amrun's stance on Sevei/singer (and InflatablePie) seems clear, and I can't help feeling that her mentions of me in particular have an agenda ("Why did you drop your mith case?"; "Would you lynch mith today?"; "Amrun's best posting comes with her rationale for her mith vote..."; "I have no real understanding why she dropped her mith vote/case..."), perhaps feeling out the possibility of a mislynch on me (or perhaps subtly pushing Amrun away from Llamarble?).

What exactly could be my agenda when I have called you town lately? Maybe I am just trying to hold Amrun accountable for her reads.

Chris and Thor are still town. Amrun is fanning the flames. Color me amused.

[Sotty7]

Is this the paragraph you mean RE: Pie?

p-edit: Actually, Llamarble being an opposing wagon to DGB is a point against him, imho. DGB's buddies had a huge incentive to push Llamarble over DGB, but in fact, Llamarble's biggest opposition also suspected DGB and helped push that wagon along. I think the two biggest wagons on d1 were on scum (with the exception of the Ipie wagon, which grew much more quickly than either of those, which should tell you something).

Don't you think the DGB wagon was faster than the Pie wagon? Was this your only reasoning for Pie town, because it is really weak.

If this is not what your talking about, I'm missing it. Help me out and point me in the right direction.

Your weak meta crap has merit, now? Funny, because after I pointed out its flaws, you said something to the effect of, "Yeah, you're right. I am really tired and should stop posting," thereby distancing yourself from your own admittedly bad argument. If I was going to choose a scum role due to my own strong scum meta (which is arguable to begin with; also my scum record is no longer perfect), it only follows that I would have done it from the start - and my original game is done and I was town.

I'm not going to argue this point with you. Why? Because it is all meta and WIFOM that can be spun either way. I have my gut feeling and that's that, it's not even a part of my case on you. What is a part is how prickly you became over my poking of you. Suddenly I was scummy. considering you apparently had me as your number two town read at this point, I find your reaction pretty scummy.

I do noticed how you totally side stepped that whole point of my argument to instead, put yourself in a favourable looking position to challenge me on a point I'm not even using against you.

And you ignored the context of post 730. Two of my strongest townreads were the opposing wagons, but YOUR wagon had marginal support and your townread wasn't as strong by far - and as I said, I was hoping to use your townflip as a point in my Llamarble case, if the game continued. Obviously, I had people I would rather wagon, but those obviously were not going to happen that day. This point in your "case" is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

I want you to explain how I fell from number two town read to a lynch you were willing to consider. Posts 577, 659 and 730 are your back to back mentions of me in your ISO. Are you really saying I fell so far after my points on Klazam and how he effectively bailed on the game? I'm having a hard time buying it.

I have never played with Fluffscum but I have skimmed several Fluffscum games and read completely and organically farside's Dating Game mafia just because I was interested in the set up and followed it. Fluff was scum and I read that correctly before he got outted by the cop (though I wasn't in the game so I didn't post that, obviously).

Okay I don't know I missed this. Sorry about that.

So you read one game and skimmed others and yet you are willing to make the following assessments on his play as scum. I'm not buying it.

My read on Fluff is dependent on nothing. He's town. I see his defense of DGB as a towntell more than anything. Fluffscum would bus there, in my opinion.

If scumFluff were going for a threat kill, it would havemore likely been Equinox, who is a near universal town read and a bit more of a mover and a shaker.

I'm not sure how not even having played one game with FluffScum can make you so confident in how he plays the role. Could you link or name the games you did skim and when you looked at them? You seem a lot more certain about the inner workings of Fluff than you should be.

[Sotty7]

Fluff can you show your working when it comes to mith scum. Especially when you say things like:

"...and keeps suggesting Amrun is scum too." - Er, no... pretty much the opposite. I didn't (and don't) think Amrun is scum unless with DH, and didn't (and don't) have any interest in lynching her.

Enough of your posts were structured such that she was the second pick to DH it seemed.

Right now I'm not seeing what you see.

[Sotty7]

Weekends can be a pain in my backside, will catch up tomorrow. Still have a shit ton of reading to do here as well.

[Sotty7]

I haven't caught up fully yet, I'm a couple of pages behind. But at this point I don't want to hammer marble.

[Sotty7]

137 - Sotty, why was Equinox contesting DGB's town read a "bad thing" for you? Your reaction to that bothers me a bit (in light of Equinox saying DGB is probably scum, there).

I just don't see why town would contend a town read of themselves from another player like that. It feels like forced reason to argue with someone to me. It all felt very fake and still does to a point. This might have been feed by my growing feeling of EquiScum at the time.

182 - I must have skimmed over this when it happened, because I don't remember this post at all. What changed between 173/174 and this? 173 suggests SocioPath's picking-this-game/town reasoning was "over the top?" (also a bit odd after harping on the uselessness of Llamarble's questions so much early on), but it's a bit of a jump to go from there to "I'm admittedly tempted to switch to Socio..." with no additional reasoning, even without a "I'm admittedly tempted to switch to Socio." in between.

Seems pretty in line to me. I did think Socio over explained his reasoning for picking this game, it seemed a little too dramatic. After that he voted DGB for what I believed at the time to be a weak reason. I was the only vote on marble and with Socio creeping up my suspect list I was willing to wagon to see where it went. I wasn't quite ready to make the switch at this point though and in the end, never actually did.

405 - Day 2... Sotty, can you explain why you were willing to disregard IP's wagon argument for Klazam-town, but used his essentially identical argument for Llamarble-town to downgrade that read?

Because it wasn't identical. The Klazam clears where done because DGB was the first vote on Socio and Klazam the third. I don't think that makes him more likely to be town at all, not with a player voting in between.

Marble on the other hand had DGB right behind him in the vote counts. That is less likely to happen with two scum buddies. Although if anyone is going to screw with VCA, it's DGB so maybe I did over value that at the time. I do still believe if we went just by those VCA's Klazam is more likely scum than Marble.

[Sotty7]

Also, that post is so beautiful that Sotty overtakes mith in the sccumlist.

That point on Llamarble/Thor is excellent.

What? Mith has me as more likely town after that post.

Why not?

You being number one cheerleader here and trying to chain my lynch afterwards makes my gut reaction to not hammering a pretty good one I think.

[Sotty7]

Hm. I'm going to see who's white knighting him. If NOBODY is, I'd suggest a lynch on someone else, because I'd expect a partner to want to try to save the game.

Shush, man, that was the whole point of me saying how impatient I was to see Llamarble say something good. Though I like what's come out of your question of Sotty7 soooo let's see how this goes!

I already answered his question in that I won't hammer him.

Also here

[Sotty7]

I never said you were sheeping mith. But I am loving how I am becoming more and more a lynch target for you for no real reason. Keep it up.

[Sotty7]

C) Promising to help someone lynch my #2 scumread if my #1 scumread is incorrect is not exactly chaining lynches; it is the logical course of action - but even if it were chaining lynches, why would that affect your read of Llamarble? How would you even know there would be a tomorrow?

The more I read this the more it feels like a scumslip. I want to vote for you but I am loathe to take the pressure off of Llamarble. You have a 9/10 chance of being scum, Sotty.

This is pretty funny when you consider I believe you to be scum and marble to be town at this point.

Chaining lynches makes you scummy, it doesn't effect my marble read. Your cheerleading of the marble wagon does slightly effect my marble read. My marble read has been slightly town since the start of the day.

Your really starting to reeeeeeeach here.

[Sotty7]

Because of the lack of hammer?

[Sotty7]

wut

[Sotty7]

You're always doing something, not always something good.

[Sotty7]

Was I really just hammered?

[Sotty7]

Equi, unless you're scum with marble you should hang your head in shame. This was terrible.

Lynch Amrun. She's scum. Pie died for a reason no matter what she claims. Her migration over to me so poor it hurts my brain.

[Sotty7]

Pay attention in particular to how she tried to frame a scum slip from me, when it could easily be applied to her posts by chaining lynches as well.

[Sotty7]

Also, that post is so beautiful that Sotty overtakes mith in the sccumlist.

That point on Llamarble/Thor is excellent.

What? Mith has me as more likely town after that post.

Why not?

You being number one cheerleader here and trying to chain my lynch afterwards makes my gut reaction to not hammering a pretty good one I think.

A) I am not sheeping mith. I just think that post was really townie - not that I necessarily agree with every word.

B) I got the impression that he meant more likely town than the Llamas, not an actual townread, but he can clarify this.

C) Promising to help someone lynch my #2 scumread if my #1 scumread is incorrect is not exactly chaining lynches; it is the logical course of action - but even if it were chaining lynches, why would that affect your read of Llamarble? How would you even know there would be a tomorrow?

The more I read this the more it feels like a scumslip. I want to vote for you but I am loathe to take the pressure off of Llamarble. You have a 9/10 chance of being scum, Sotty.

Thor, if you help me lynch Llamarble today, if I am wrong, I will help you lynch Sotty tomorrow.

I'll even do up a sheepable case for her, even if it is bunk according to you.

CHAININGLYNCHESLOL

[Sotty7]

TOWN

Chris B
Thor
DemonHybrid
mith
Equinox/Llamarable/LLamaFluff
Amrun

SCUM

[Sotty7]

Don't let Equi coast again. Also don't let her mess with vote counts for no reason. The last time I saw a player play the VCs like this flipped scum. Ythill, Open 300.

Ummm I think that's all I have to say. Sweet release is sweet, if a tad bitter.

Glad that this is over for me at least. This game sucked.

[Sotty7]

What the fuck? That hammer was awful. I was counting on Llamarble's reaction to Sotty L-1.

Here's to hoping game over.

P-edit: fucking damnit. DH!!!!!!! Why!!!!

OH COME ON!