American Gods Mafia - Game over

[farside22]

vote: werewolf555

To save myself from his play.

Hello to you too Seacore. Did you miss me?

[farside22]

Llama: Although I agree with the no VI with the masonary ability, don't you think it's too early to determine who you want to talk with at night?
Don't you think it should be 2 people that the majority find town and 1 player the majority find scum (that is not lynched) to grill the scum at night in the QT and see how they react?
Either that or you vote 2 people you believe are town, to talk about what happened during the day and discuss those that looked scummy and why. (This way it's not everyone throwing around their 2 cents and can be a more civil conversation).

[farside22]

@Gaggle: I know Faraday has been a hydra before. Chesskid have you done hydra before?
Faraday head is there a reason you want to speak as one or was that Chesskid's idea?

Mod: Is there a majority reach for the elect or does it become the 3 most votes at the end of the day?
If there is a majority can I elect 2 people instead of 3?

[farside22]

@Gaggle: I know Faraday has been a hydra before. Chesskid have you done hydra before?
Faraday head is there a reason you want to speak as one or was that Chesskid's idea?

chesskid hasn't hydra'd on MS to my knowledge. And no, it was my idea when I proposed we hydra, the main reason for the hydra was that our reads mesh well when we are both town in a game, and I don't think I've ever signed my posts as part of a hydra anyway, this is just taking this forward a step. Is there any reason you ask apart from mere curiosity?

Well another ongoing game, you don't sign your name but it's clear your speaking as yourself as you mention the other person you Hydra with. I was curious why you want to speak as one in this game. Just something I ponder when I see something different in another game.

[farside22]

Ythill: Please don't tell me you are referring to the OMGUS vote my wraith as scummy?
Are you a really going to tell me page 1 that scum are going to come in say hi I'm scum and do the most obvious thing?

wait........reads wraith's response.

unvote:
vote: wraith

[farside22]

Elect: Ythill: Disliking of his Wrath vote or not, the way he's handled himself seems pretty townie in this very early stage. He's kept up the pressure and is actively scumhunting.

@Ghostlin: Which of Ythill's 3 of post looked like he handled himself well and kept pressure going?
And why?

In regards to SGR:
I find it odd that SGR would defend Wraith so earnestly. He does state he sucks at mafia so is it far outside the realms for him to defend his scum partner?
Also what the hell is with 2 fos's and no votes? What is the point of an fos? What is the point of not voting?

@SGR: Did you read the book the game is named after?
Why vote for Ghostlin over lets say morph who had poor reasoning to vote for you?

Elect: farside, ythill

[farside22]

Also what the hell is with 2 fos's and no votes? What is the point of an fos? What is the point of not voting?

The above is said about SGR. Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Maybe when you try and push a wagon, you should, y'know, check a votecount.

Because SGR is voting.

Herp.

Agar that was in the beginning with morph and ythill. He voted for Ghostlin later for making a poor case, hence my question to him.

[farside22]

elect: Agar

Actually I looked into SGR's games and he has a tendacy not to vote much. He seems to change it up from his first game I saw he joined to another game where he voted a bit more in the beginning. I didn't see the OMGUS votes come from him. I'm curious to under stand why he voted one player over the other.
He also defended a player in another game (will find link later) that people were pushing. He was town in both those games I looked into.

[farside22]

@Wrath: I asked the mod about whether it take a majority to put someone backstage. He stated it didn't so in my view electing a person I have a good read on (yes page 6 is possible) I will elect them backstage.
I don't see why there is a reason to hold back. Do you?

I agree with Llama; discussing the possibilities of who to sacrifice/resurrect is pointless when we don't have any flips. If there's someone we want to resurrect then we should sacrifice a scumread, not specifically keep someone around for a policy sacrifice. With that in mind:

Vote: Agar

Except...I just read Llama's ISO, and he didn't mention anything like this. Ythill DID mention sacrifices, but he advocated the opposite (sacrificing players that are blatantly VIs). Hence, where are you getting the information from? I'd like you to explain what you meant, because I'm uneasy with the thought that you pulled this from somewhere less public than the normal thread.

Unvote; Vote: LL

Someone has selective reading here.

There is no real point to get into resurect at this point since no one is dead.

I'd also be up for an SGR lynch, however. That post on D2 just screams "Hello, I'm here and I'm going to defend Wraith because he's my scum buddy".

Have you seen scum day 1, first few pages that is a newb do this before?

@Wrath: I'm not explaining because you obviously didn't read and/or comprehend.

I read it. I understood so let me ask you something. If people are attacking you/voting for you are you not supposed to defend yourself?
Also the meta was a request from Ythill so your point on why that is scummy is....?????

Wrath could easily be SGR's scumbuddy after that little show

Referring to him defending wrath?

3) animor for thinking I am incredibly retarded and for placing down a small FoS so he can vote me later if the BW picks steam

Wait, saying that I'm suspicious of someone is scummy? First I've heard of it. Tipping point = reached.

unvote, vote: SGRaaize

That's not what I read from what you quoted above.

SGR is trying to avoid confrontation and attention. I find the latter more insidious, and definitely worthy of my attention first and foremost.

He is? He is responding to everyone. He's definately on my people's radar that were talking so how do you get avoiding confrontation and attention from?

If/when SGR flips scum, the following are his most likely buddies in order of likelihood:

AGar
Wrath
Locke

I'm still happy with my election votes right now, though I could just as easily elect Ythill as either of the two I'm currently voting to elect

Except for Locke your putting people together that are defending one another? How is that scummy?

None of the things you've just stated are fact. Its all spin. You're spinning things to try to make SGR look better.

unvote:
vote: OGML

scum list at this time:

OGML
Morph
Ghostlin

People of interest that make my spidy senses tingle:

GG
Llama

[farside22]

@Ghostlin: Which of Ythill's 3 of post looked like he handled himself well and kept pressure going?
And why?

@Ythill

He is? He is responding to everyone. He's definately on my people's radar that were talking so how do you get avoiding confrontation and attention from?

Bleck. Just take out the my in this sentence. It's poorly written. In short SGR is getting plenty of notice.

As for llama:
I didn't like his vote on SGR for the sake of BW. I've modded a few games he was in and his comment

I will wagon for wagon sake. Any of the WC-SGR-Ani triangle of chaos getting a wagon on them will be good for reads on all of them, and im pretty sure SGR is vote leader.

unvote
Vote SGR

Seemed really off. It's like someone you have known all your life who scum hunts and angles things (even as scum) that does a 180 saying sure lets BW vote.
It's just really off for me.
Also before the above post he didn't say jack about WC. It doesn't sit well with me.

[farside22]

I know that, but I am trying to figure out what the error was. Let me explain. It seems like you initially wrote that he was on your radar, then tried to qualify it, then decided to write that he was on other people's radar. People make mistakes, obv, but this one might be indicative of you retooling to keep your suspicions straight, which seems scummy. Like I said, sorry to nitpick.

I honestly didn't know I put my in that sentence. I get interrupted often when I'm on MS when reading. I put everything into a notepad. Depending on the time (it says 8:19am when I made that post) it means I'm getting ready for work and getting everyone up and ready at the same time as checking the thread and writing out my cases or catch up post. I will be in the middle of a sentence when my son will ask for something, like more juice or to change the channel or potty ect. Then after getting to anything I can I'm running to get myself ready for work.
You'll probably see it happen from time to time, where I type something worded horribly. I've seen it first hand but it's the best I can do with a short time I can get online to play.


OMG people can we please not have the wall-o-text from hell.
*cries*
I'll look at those last 2 walls a bit later. I'm still looking for an answer from Ghostlin. I find it odd he found Ythill town then unelected him because he didn't vote for him as he was listed first on a scum list.

I need to reread the game, see what people are seeing about Ani, and maybe even decide if Ythill's worth a vote.

I still want ghost to do what he said. Also why did you do an iso case on SGR and not check into Ani first?

unvote
Vote Ghost

His entire early case against SGR is that SGR is trying to figure out what the ani case is somewhat inefficiently. I think its a good thing to try and force out that case, because im not too sure it exists at this point.

Can you explain how you come to the conclusion?

[farside22]

@farside:

@Meta - I see little to no reason for meta in most cases, because people can easily enough go around and switch their behaviors, which makes meta a null, imo.
@ no defense - I understand you are supposed to defend, I just saw a whole crap load of it.
@"that's not what I read" - That's a difference of opinion. I can't really argue that.
@ Scum D1 - SGR has been around for about a year. Something tells me that it's not a noob mistake, but a more planned gesture.

I sense a contradiction here. If a player has been around long enough and has been accused before of defending someone that many are attacking looks scummy, why would said player do that again if they are scum?
Who else do you think is scum and why?

[farside22]

@far:

Okay, dropping the subject but since you can't (or won't) explain it, I'm logging it as a tell.

Pretty sure I explain why the my was there. Either you choose to believe me or not.
On the subject of things that make no sense why are you voting for OGML when you say he dropped a few town tells?

Unelect: farside, Elect: Gaggle

ouch I'm so hurt that scum OGML unelected me.

I think what people are forgetting is the OGML had poor reason's for his vote and push on SGR.
In case you missed it this was part of his reasoning:

SGR is trying to avoid confrontation and attention. I find the latter more insidious, and definitely worthy of my attention first and foremost.

None of this holds any truth what-so-ever.
Also this falacy:

If/when SGR flips scum, the following are his most likely buddies in order of likelihood:

AGar
Wrath
Locke

out of 3 people on this list 2 of him is due to defending SGR. This doesn't include behavoir or what anyone said. One thing. That's it. Nothing about how their playing, but because apparently in OGML's world all scum defend each other.
Give me a break.

[farside22]

I disagree with Agar's logic.
When a person says Sure, it obviously doesn't mean he's 100% positive the target is gonna appear scum, I think Agar is trying to bust OGML on worthless semantics. And I find it hard to believe Agar actually believes what he's typing.

And yeah, as I said, I think this wagon is positive, I think OGML is just a Townie that isn't trying hard, Ghostlin is scum

Actually I have seen scum slip like Agar is talking about. It's an ongoing game so I can't link it. When someone says they are sure someone is scum, then switch to if that means there is a doubt.


By the way it's post like this from GG that make my spidy sense's tingle

We would appreciate if those of you who saw fit to trust us with an elect vote

Clearly the scum are everyone who choose to elect A Gaggle of Geese, since they are such obvscum.
/slightly pissed off post, considering that we're obvTOWN/

Two post now where they push there we are town you should elect us. No one else seems eager like this in the game. It's like they feel the need to prove their townie by hoping to be elected for back stage.

Then we have the wonderful cases so far from GG.

Unvote

Vote: Ani

We are in agreement that SGR has looked very townish lately.

We would also not like to see Farside elected, as he is null leaning scum, while we have a very very strong townreads on Seacore, for example.

Unvote

Vote: Farside

These are GG "cases" No content. One is follow at BW the other is hey farside looks scummy lets vote her. By the way hi cheesekid (pretty sure it's been you these last few post as Faraday knows I'm a her).
*adds GG to scum list*

Morph still looks scummy. I see his play as pushing the easy targets. He hasn't mentioned any other player then WC and SGR.

@Llama: What in morph's post seems town to you and why?

[farside22]

unvote
vote AGar

I think I am not voting you right now. I am not sure.

This isn't town agar I know. Sorry.

Examples? What is agar town, why did what he wrote strike you as anti-town?

[farside22]

*Looks pointedly at Ghostlin*

Why do I feel like people are completely ignoring me in this game and my questions.

[farside22]

Ahahahahaha. Faraday nailed it. We both agreed you were scummy as hell after 242, and he was like "hey let's vote Farside with no explanation so she can omgus us".
Sweet.

You know how this looks to me:
LOOK EVERYONE FAR MADE A POINT AGAINST ME THEREFORE SHE IS SCUM BECAUSE WE ARE OBV TOWN. Of course we are going to ignore that she had doubt in us first.

Oh hey look we're asking people who have elected us [presumably (if not EXPLICITLY) in part because having a hydra backstage is good, because we are two heads who can bounce reads off of each other] to reread you BECAUSE we HAVE bounced reads off each other and both come to the agreement that you are the scummiest player in the game right now. Misrepresent much?

One had nothing to do with the other. This statement also reads, hey we aren't going to explain why we find far scummy, but vote us backstage and we will tell you. IE: we have nothing now, but once we lynch far or anyone else, we can claim we thought we had something we didn't

This contrasts very nicely UN-NICELY LOL with:

Speaking of someone who snips things out. Nice of you to completely leave out my point on you, which is still holding true.

So apparently it's not ok for OMGL to suspect that most of SGR's scumbuddies are defending him on an SGR scumflip, but it is ok for you suppose that everyone attacking you is scum.

Really I suspect morph (not suspicious of me), OGML (before unelecting me didn't have suspicion on me), Ghost (doesn't have suspicion on me) and you (who doesn't have a case or leg to stand on).

Hey everyone who "trust" GG can you explain why you do since they aren't explain anything and so far hasn't made a case.
I pointed out your scum hunting suspects by the way, which are 2 people, with no case.
I don't see how two heads of an account have to be back stage when neither have presented a case.

[farside22]

uh, yeah not going to try and bother convince scum they're scum. More farside votes please.

unvote:
vote: GG

Refusing to make a case is a scum tell. Ignoring everything I said and discounting the only point you made against me (saying I'm suspicious of those suspicious of me) which I know is not true is guaranteed scum making a fake case.

Awesome stuff. Me or you lynched then, because I refuse to be baited by someone who not only voted without a reason, but tried batting a second time with the look at farside BS.
Let me ask you GG: How many baits were you willing to put out there? How many times are you going to bait a player before they are allowed to respond to false scum hunting?

[farside22]

Refusing to make a case is a scum tell.

Excuse me?

uh, yeah not going to try and bother convince scum they're scum. More farside votes please.

Did I stutter?
Your constant refusal (twice I asked you for a case and stated you were not going to either by the above or

Neither of us particularly enjoy/desire making long WoT cases, as they turn the game into "who can argue stuff better" competitions.

)
It tells me you have no case, unless your calling that wall a case.......?? Because if it is not only inaccurate it's a lie too.

[farside22]

Let me ask you GG: How many baits were you willing to put out there? How many times are you going to bait a player before they are allowed to respond to false scum hunting?

[farside22]

@Farside: Hold on, we get to go first. You are explicitly stating that refusing to provide a case is scummy? Confirm/deny/blather please.

It's a reason I find you scummy. It's not the only scum tell. Because if it was the only thing I would call you a dumbass and get to scum hunting or I'm calling you scum. So yes in my book refusing to provide a case is scummy. Let me guess your going to say no it's not, why and keep refusing to make a case right?
Well lets bypass that question right now.

Scum in my book who refuse or can't make a case, can't do it because they don't know how to present a case on someone other then their scum buddy, town has no reason to refuse to make a case, scum can hide behind voting people more easier if they have no case and blend in.

[farside22]

@Farside: Hold on, we get to go first. You are explicitly stating that refusing to provide a case is scummy? Confirm/deny/blather please.

It's a reason I find you scummy. It's not the only scum tell. Because if it was the only thing I would call you a dumbass and get to scum hunting or I'm calling you scum. So yes in my book refusing to provide a case is scummy. Let me guess your going to say no it's not, why and keep refusing to make a case right?
Well lets bypass that question right now.

Scum in my book who refuse or can't make a case, can't do it because they don't know how to present a case on someone other then their scum buddy, town has no reason to refuse to make a case, scum can hide behind voting people more easier if they have no case and blend in.

blahblahblah....So we won't find any games of yours in which someone makes no cases past stating reads and you don't press them/accuse them of being scum, etc for it?

What games did you look at? I know I did so in a in one on going games right now that I can't link to. I know in another current game I'm calling someone for this action.
Are you actually going to answer my question ever?

[farside22]

Can't say, etc. You apply the tell inconsistently though, that's for sure.

Let me ask you GG: How many baits were you willing to put out there? How many times are you going to bait a player before they are allowed to respond to false scum hunting?

From what we can interpret of this question, you want to know how often we were going to vote someone with no words to "bait" them into OMGUSing us? Is that the question?
If so, then the answer is just you for the moment. #242 was incredibly scummy, and given that our vote was in #243, how hard is it to figure out why we're voting you?

And What was suspicious about #243? Please share the same thing I pointed out the OGML case here except mine second post was a reminder why OGML case isn't about tunnel vision is about misinterpreting and making false statement.

Unvote

farside, just because someone doesn't explicitly express suspicion of you doesn't mean they're not suspicious of you. Did you consider the possibility that I unelected you as I became suspicious of you?

GG is saying I'm calling you scum based on your unelect comment when in fact I had a case on you and voted you way before that. His point on me about calling everyone scum that finds me suspicious I suspect is invalid.

[farside22]

Also, you have to earn the right to call our logic bullshit. Show. Quote. Argue. Mafia is not a game of rhetoric-shouting.

Pot this is kettle SGR has the right to tell you to take a flying leap.

I noticed in looking at CK's meta a bit he's a troll that likes to spam alot and likes to argue. I'm still looking into more but the boy really spams hard in games.
@Chesskid (CK) Are you doing to tell me that in all the games you played here at MS no one ever called you out for not making a case before? I noticed in a couple of games you vote with a oneline reason but I didn't see anything were you voted based on a feeling. Do you have examples of you playing this way before.

[farside22]

Well, we had her at null until #242, at which point we both put her at scummy, and then recent developments have firmly cemented her at scum.
FOPOV, she has basically been nonstop discrediting since we encouraged people to vote for her, and has recently started mudslinging and flailing with this "Chesskid a troll" crap.
*shrug*

And What was suspicious about #242? Please share. the same thing I pointed out the OGML case hereexcept my second post was a reminder why OGML case isn't about tunnel vision . It's about misinterpreting and making false statement.

*Note: I changed the link so it showed the correct place. I made a few grammar correction to be clear so my point is not ignored a second time.

Also your stating another lie. Before post #242 you stated

We would also not like to see Farside elected, as he is null leaning scum,

This means there was something you supposedly saw before that had you leaning scum on me and now your using a post number saying it's scummy without a reason.

[farside22]

I can't speak for my other head, since in the QT we both commented immediately after #242 something to the effect of "wow farside is scum". I found it very scummy because I read based on motivation, and there was no pro-town motivation in that post. All I see in that post is sarcasm and discretization.

Sorry I must of missed this.


The only sarcasm was my comment about his unelect. I found it childish behavior from OGML and based more on my case that he's ignoring and seems more pissy as he hasn't said anything so far on why he finds me suspicious. Really if you don't like sarcasm you and I will never get along.
As for the rest of what I said about OGML he stated the following:

Guys, first off, tunnel vision isn't even scummy because its never been a bad thing to try to get the person you're sure is scum lynched, and second I haven't been exhibiting tunnel vision simply because I haven't voted for anyone else. Third, again, its not setting up chain lynches when what I've said is conditional. If scum then scum is the only relation I've posited. Its not like if he flips town I'll go durrr ok well I thought AGar was his scumbuddy so he must still be scum

I can't dispute that comment? I can't put the fact that those reason's listed above didn't cover the case I had on him?

[farside22]

Since when was being childish a scumtell?

Seriously are you reading? I was explaining my sarcasm that GG claimed was scummy. I didn't say your actions of unelecting was scum tell. Selective reading much?

[farside22]

@Farside, your hyperlink was broken for me. It didn't go back to what you said it would, instead it just went back to the start of the game.

I put in the correct link when I quoted it and asked GG the question a second time.

I'm working on analysis of each player this week. Monday's are bad for me these days so I probably won't have it complete till tomorrow.

[farside22]

Alright I'm taking a break for now. My brain officially is off now. I'm going to post my thoughts on most everyone. I still have a few people left to look into.

animorpherv1 - morph really looks scummy to me. So far he's attacked WC and SGR. His attack on WC was weak reasoning. His vote on SGR is omgushish and weak again. He points SGR scum for defending WC saying scum together. Still waiting on morph's response to my question about SGR. Right now morph looks to be going for the VI's in this game which is scummy.

AGar - I like Agar. The post were he pointed out OGML's post and saying how he has seen players act in other games as town have town over scum earned him a town point for me. I like his attack on OGML, but I really hate when people back down to go for a BW vote. (IE morph vote)
I see from Agar and Ythill that joining BW in large games day 1 is informative. I don't feel like giving up on my #1 scum suspect for pressure on another wagon helps town. I have seen in the past scum slip under the radar when they don't have to worry about being attacked and just float by. Only one issue I had. See question below. For the most part good read.

Apokalyptika - I'm not sure about Apoka. He a least made a case on someone that no one else did and had an opinion that wasn't just about SGR or morph, but I don't agree with his reasoning. I need more input.

Nexus - one post. No read. Supposed to be back tomorrow.

vezokpiraka - refers to meta when reading players (IE: ghost, agar) What language is it that Agar did that equates to scum vs town? I'm not liking vezo. He doesn't explain things about his reads other then meta but doesn't explain what that meta is.

werewolf555 - same onliners I expected from him. Null reading.

Tasky/MOI - Tasky feels odd. I sensed he was lost, but the vote on Agar made no sense. MOI actually had me laughing with his VI's slap fight comment (sorry it was funny).
Are you saying 'Tarp' on purpose for some reason? It really looks so odd. Also you stated there were others you found scummy, would you do a quick reason/who post?
I actually like many points that MOI is making. I like the questions he's posed so far..yup straight and to the point. Still would like my request (hey call me paranoid I know how good you were as scum in the invitational).

Ghostlin -

Elect: GaggleofGeese: I've played with Chess before, and have been less than impressed, so I'm surprised at this election, HOWEVER, GG has shown remarkably good judgement in the beginning of this game.

Elect: Ythill: Disliking of his Wrath vote or not, the way he's handled himself seems pretty townie in this very early stage. He's kept up the pressure and is actively scumhunting.

Since my first question on this post got missed I'm adding a question now.
What did you see from GG that lead you to make the comment?
What about Ythill did you see he was handling himself well, actively scumhunting and keeping pressure?
As much as I don't look at the iso's list the tl'rd was interesting, not anything else mentioned. hmmmm I maybe wrong about my first impression of ghost, UGH that vote on OGML really goes back to the WTF moment.
@Ghost: Why did you switch to OGML? Is he scummier then SGR in your book? Why if you find OGML scummy did you not say anything about him before?



Llamafluff - I already have a few questions posted in this game to you. But in case it's missed, Why do you read morph as town?
My biggest problem with LF is the last game we were in together I thought he was scum there too. I just don't care for his morph defense, call it more knowing his personal preference on why he voted for morph, call it that I don't see anything town about morph so I question his read in the matter.



Ythill - Reading Ythill is like reading a cold hard machine. I mean damn boy are you always cold and analytical when playing mafia? There are maybe 2 or 3 post I felt wasn't like reading a robot (no offense). Not this is a tell, just a weird experience for me personally. What does MotR stand for? Why are you voting for GG backstage when in one post you stated "I'm starting to think that only the chess head is being scummy" Did something change between that post and your election vote?
Plays close to the chest on some issues. I don't see anything.....I think I'm still thrown by the coldness. I know for the most part I have a town read in general, but it's not singing town read....idk, weird.

Ghostlin gains more scumpoints for choosing the SGR wagon as his poison, after telling me my Large Game theory was essentially wrong.

This statement is false. Ghost voted SGR first before you made your comment. Why did you claim this?

Btw, a question I want to ask you that's ISO related: were you serious about your first vote in your ISO? Do you think that we should use the sacrifice mechanic as a PL means?

Did I mean that werewolf vote. I said I would vote for him, if felt good, yes I know his play hence my vote. Do I believe in policy lynching.......I sometimes wish I did. I have seen VI's hurt the town many times over. This game at least lets us sacrifice a player in exchange for another.
What doe PL mean?

[farside22]

Saint - I feel dirty reading saint's post. The kind that make me want to take a shower now, dirty. I don't like his kissing the ass of ythill post, I don't like his post to me. I really don't like his following. Well now were getting somewhere. God I thought I was going to be sick there. He's at least questing a few things but I don't get his post/attack on ythill. And his "case" on Seacore is also inaccurate. In short I want to go take a shower yuck feel.

Seacore - why do people have seacore as town? So far he defended WC, told him to calm down, voted for Ghost on meta from another game (without an explination what differences). What about OGML's post did you not like? Ythill votes for people not on his scum list or down on the list that is BW what is the difference with what OGML did and Ythill? Do you think that OGML lynch is happening this moment? hmmmm his comment about the Agar/OGML gives me something to chew on for a bit.

Locke Lamora - WTH! Where the fuck was this scum hunting in other games dude. *mutter other colorful curse words* I actually have a town read, wtf man. Scum hunts (check), questions people (check) makes valid arguments (check), no one else has noted this. WTF. Knowing my luck with LL and our history my town read will mean he's scum in this game.

I read a higher level of commitment to the wagon from him as it gained steam, which happened after I gave my (Fate's, in all truthfulness) theory on large game wagonning and consolidation, and he said the theory was essentially bunk.

So your theory so far is that your statment is that he has a higher level of commitment on the wagon......

unelect Agar

elect LL

Needless to say I find that a bit reaching. A person who feels someone is scum will push on the lynch too, or as you stated have a higher level of commitment to the wagon. I don't like people who use idea's and twist things to make someone looks scummier.

I still have WC and SGR to rereview, but honestly I'm dreading it. I have another game I need to give serious considerations, so I will get back to those 2 when I'm done there.
Maybe drink something to dull the soon to be headache.

[farside22]

Refresh my memory farside … did you have a Town read on Locke in /invitiational 8? I find his play similar here to there.

I figure it was scum read, but I don't remember......

Scummy people thus far:
Porochaz
Charlie
MOI
Locke

I don't see the similar play looking at it.

[farside22]

WC - What suspicion do you have in regards to SGR? Alright after some newb moments I found WC not so bad to read. I don't mind his scum read so much as I'm surprised that he only has 2 people he listed as scum. I'm going to put WC at null and to be watched.

SGR- I don't care for SGR 3 people he wants to vote. All 3 had stated a issue with him. The worst one is LL. Why wasn't OGML on the list? Why do you think OGML is a townie that is not trying hard, rather then scum making a crap case? What reason did you find was valid against OGML? Why do you think there is enough info for the day to end?

[farside22]

I read a higher level of commitment to the wagon from him as it gained steam, which happened after I gave my (Fate's, in all truthfulness) theory on large game wagonning and consolidation, and he said the theory was essentially bunk.

So your theory so far is that your statment is that he has a higher level of commitment on the wagon......

Huh?

Badly worded.
Your theory is that ghost "had a higher level of commitment" on someone because of your comment.
Then read the rest of what I said after that.

[farside22]

SGR- I don't care for SGR 3 people he wants to vote. All 3 had stated a issue with him. The worst one is LL. Why wasn't OGML on the list? Why do you think OGML is a townie that is not trying hard, rather then scum making a crap case? What reason did you find was valid against OGML? Why do you think there is enough info for the day to end?

1) You don't think Ani and Ghostlin are scum?
2) I have been changed my mind by the way OGML has acted under suspicions, and also the arguments used against him
3) There is enough info for the day to end because we have been moving at a snail's pace since we started a lynch on OGML

1) Ani, yes - Ghostlin I did but rereading I can't say town, but null
2) okay that's vague. What was it that you saw that got you to that conclusion? Which arguments changed your view?
3) You've been on MS how long? Really this is normal speed and some people are behind.

unvote:
vote: Nexus

[farside22]

@Saint:

My comment about Agar is he is saying that Ghostlin had a higher level of commitment to the wagon after he made his point about the large game BW theory
there was more to my comment after (which I don't like repeating myself but apparently is required by some) was this:

Needless to say I find that a bit reaching. A person who feels someone is scum will push on the lynch too, or as you stated have a higher level of commitment to the wagon. I don't like people who use idea's and twist things to make someone looks scummier.

What is the point in that? It doesn't make sense

I see someone pushing for a quick lynch. I asked how long he had been on MS as Day 1 usually takes at least 2 weeks especially in large games.

Farside still pushing for ani-town reasoning... egh. His iso 1 is a town post, he shows no freakout over me trying to get him lynched on policy, he is making elects he thinks is best for the town, he is pushing a case. I just read town up and down from it. Nothing else is scummy, so he is leaning town.

So him pushing a bad case on an easy lynch goes out the window? No thought on scum buddying townies?

The ghostlin case actually makes to take a step back and reevulate.

[farside22]

I keep going back and forth on Ghost when I read him. Your case makes me want to step back and re-evaluate everything all over again.

[farside22]

Alright did another glance. One question to Ghost.
Who are your scum suspects and why?

maybe this question won't be ignored this time, as you have yet to answer my question about ythill.

Llama: Although you point on morph seem's reasonable, his play reminds me of another game I was in with him where he was scum. I see him pushing easy lynches with weak reasoning and lurking. I remember another game we were in with him and morph was town, so I will look at the 2 games and compare and get back with a final analysis on it.

[farside22]

No. I'm saying he showed a higher level of commitment AFTER the comment, but not because of it. The comment didn't influence him in either direction. The support is what I think did.

does not compute
does not compute

Time back for morph

robot mafia morph town

fire & ice morph scum

town morph: jokes around and votes without much reason. No views on why player is scum and flakes off.
scum morph: makes cases based on weak reasoning.

So in short morph still looks scummy here to me.

[farside22]

@ythill: I was in one game with you and I don't recall you vote hopping as much as this game.

geezer mafia
You had 3 people you were will to vote on day 1. Very different from here. This game you seem a bit more hey lets BW X and see where it goes. I also see from geezer there is no VC analysis coming from you there.

unelect: ythill

[farside22]

Typing this in all game:
I'm currently overloaded at work this week and working overtime this weekendto meet a deadline. Consider me on LA for a week. Which mean limited access, infrequent post and catch's will take longer to do.

[farside22]

I'm going thru and rereading the whole game from the start. I have many notes but this one thing jumped out at the most and I want an explanation.

I will wagon for wagon sake. Any of the WC-SGR-Ani triangle of chaos getting a wagon on them will be good for reads on all of them, and im pretty sure SGR is vote leader.

unvote
Vote SGR

Very next post:

Can someone actually give me a concise ani case right now? As much as I think he is great policy lynch bait, I really cant find much there that justifies a lynch of him.

What changed in between with morph being a person you would wagon for the wagon sake and the very next post where you are asking for a case and calling him great policy lynch bait?

[farside22]

What changed in between with morph being a person you would wagon for the wagon sake and the very next post where you are asking for a case and calling him great policy lynch bait?

Beacuse between those two posts he had gone from zero to six serious votes for reasons that obviously were not wagon for the sake of wagon since there wasnt a wagon there to start. That ment it had to be serious, and I saw no reason that there could be a serious wagon on him, so I tried to force one out, and it more or less reaffirmed my thoughts on him.

Yet 3 people stated reason's and you still slided away from your position on morph. I don't see why.

I'm currently on page 15 of my reread. Some notes I have that change my view on some people but not all.

I don't like WC post where he list his reads of players. If you read it, he has states reasons that don't make sense on why he believes a person is town. He down plays the ghostlin case with saying I see it but get a town read on him. He does some fence sitting glore on those reads.
Morph is still on my scum list. See meta post for details. Llama is on my scum radar. I don't so far like any answer I have received from him and they contradict an earlier statement.
I should be done with my read this week. For now I'm taking a break from analysising.

[farside22]

@Ythill: It's a good point. Nexus did the same. If there a big difference between what Nexus said/did and WC?

I want to actually finish my read of the game before anything else.

[farside22]

-Farside then challenges him on OGML and he admits he hadn't really noticed what OGML was posting at all before that point; fine, but why the eagerness to back the wagon if he's not your top lynch choice? He also says that SGR doesn't apply scumtells evenly to people, which is incredibly hypocritical in a post where he admits he barely noticed what OGML had posted for most of the game, and then later indicated that OGML had done some of the things he voted Tasky for, like sheeping wagons with no reason.

This was my biggest problem with Ghost.
Remember the theory that Agar talked about bw theory. And ghost unelects ythill because he didn't vote his #1 suspect to joining the OMGL vote with very weak reason's. It was completely against everything he had been about this game.

@WC: These are 2 examples of your reads. I didn't want to add all the ones that made me twitch:

18. Locke Lamora: Seemed too interested in pushing a lynch based on my schedule announcement early on, but later seems to make a good point against SGR's election of Ythill. Overall he seems to be putting effort into scum-hunting. I have a no read on him becuase his concern about my schedule comment is reaching a bit, but he seems to have good points against SGR.

7. Ghostlin: Obviously didn't get my nerd joke, sarcasm is hard on the internet. So after I read his ISO, I had to go back and look at the cases being made on him because nothing really jumped out at me. I see Ythill put him at the top of his scumlist, but I see no explanation as to why. When pried further Ythill mentions Too Helpfull in #22 (I don't get this impression at all), Skimming and cognative dissonance in #43 (I do see some evidence of that and I think SGR and Seacore touch on that too) and populist in #76 (I have no clue what that term means in Mafia). Overall I don't get scum-read on Ghost.

Both are I get this but still read town. In fact I think I found 4 or 5 post where your reads where feels town, but post. I would like to know what you think of LL, Ghost, Llama and Seacore.

@MOI: You asked me my thoughts on KK. In short I didn't like his post. I'm still doing my full read of the game, but I read that and something didn't feel/look can't explain with rereading kind of thing to it.

@KK: Have you played with morph before? If so what was your read of his play this game? Yes I'm having you analysis a player you replaced.

[farside22]

@KK; in your write up. You mentioned people's meta. I wanted to see if you had a meta of morph and what conclusion you had is so. Plus I wanted to see how honest you would be about it. Considering morph is on my scum list due to meta and I don't recall many a game with you, I'm more feeling you out.
My goal is to finish tonight. I get over an hour to finish, with interruptions and 10 pages I may need my sanity checked first. Ugh.

[farside22]

Yaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ugh
I'm going to do a list and just a few questions I had that left me wondering.


Town:
Ythill
Vezo
SGR
were/LMP

Leaning town:
LL
Saint


Null:
Agar
MOI

Questionable block
GG
OGML
Secore
WC

Scum:
Ghost
Llama
KK/morph
Nexus
Apoka


@MOI: Have you played with apok before? If so what game and how was his play. If not what was the point of post 400?

Elect LMP

Can't say I agree with everything but many things you posted had me thinking about a few other connections to keep in mind.

@Llama: Can you please link the game where you were scum with morph please?

unelect GG
elect Apoc

I encourage a wagon sending Apoc backstage. He isnt posting much, but when he does, he is posting very well. Think this is a great type of player to send back.

WTF? Where? Seriously this is the same person who voted for Agar then unvoted and voted for Vezo to post a case on Agar.

KK: How did you read the game? Did you read from the start or iso players? Why is there so little info in your catch up post?
Do you have links to your meta of OMGL playing this way before?

Would love to know why OGML has a town read on Apok. I've seen the occasional forced vote and a desire to keep options wide open. Not exactly worthy of town-cred.

QFFT!

I put Apok on my scum list for weak hunting. She votes for Agar, then says hey nexus case looks good, but I'm going to vote for Vezo because I want more explanation on the Agar case. Then when she get's ignored she switches to OGML.

LMP's case was the best out there and very eye opening.

unvote:
vote: 00iCon

Hey OGML are you actually going to answer people's questions like why you fluffed a reason for voting for SGR or why you are suspicious of those you have listed?

[farside22]

@Apok: Why did you think that Vezo's lack of explanation is scummier then what Nexus stated? Why when you asked your question to vezo and he/she didn't respond did you not ask again? Do you typically play UTR and low key in games?

[farside22]

Do to some discussion in last nights BS and ythills flip I'm going to go this way.

vote: Llama

[farside22]

oh don't think we should revive vezok, or at least not yet, tracker could be powerful nearer to endgame would clear townies and stuffs.

I think revive vezok is good. Not sure when the best time to do so. I know when I modded a game with a revive method the PR had info when he died and bring him back early helped the town nail one scum (he was the hider that game and died hiding behind scum).
I would say bringing back Vezo early would be best for info.

On a side note: Holy shit GG and I agree with Llama from Backstage talks.

[farside22]

LMP is more prob town than before even, I think. Will have to discuss with my other half probs.

I don't know as much. A few things LMP stated makes me wary. His there is a probability of at least one scum backstage and both him and Ythill thought WC was scum.

[farside22]

@GG: What are your thoughts with Ythill voting for OMGL but then doing an about face once it was at L-1? You still have that same read on OMGL?

[farside22]

#35 - Makes me think about sacrificing myself to save him, another way to give a nice Townread.

God seeing this and knowing he scum now. He was probably trying to feel out if you had a PR by asking that question.

I don't disagree with your OGML view and connection to Ythill.
I however am not changing my vote off Llama. His lack of response is even more interesting based on our talks last night.
I'm sure Ythill feed his scum team the plans we talked about so Llama brushing GG and myself off without question has me zoned in on him at the moment.

[farside22]

>_>
I think we owe you an apology Farside.
>_>

I appreciate the apology.
I was pretty close to adding you to people I never want to play with again and feeling suspicious of Faraday for acting so different then I remember him playing.
I'm not going to get all mushy now. Lets get scum and win for the town.

[farside22]

Anything you guys want to share from backstage?

I want to see what Llama is going to say before I answer this.

Elect: Farside, GG and WC

No offense but with some of Ythill's comments I don't really trust you and I agree with SGR on WC not being Ythill's scum buddy for the reason's he outlined

[farside22]

I wonder... Did YThill's death have anything to do with Backstage?

We had a discussion last night. Many of us questioned Llama's play on day 2. Ythill mentioned that is play was off and there was other comments made in regards to him from others.
Ythill didn't want to put pressure on Llama and he has been letting Llama's play slide by not only in game, but in the backstage area.
There was also comments from Ythill about doing a vote gambit. I think Llama is being too cool about our votes.

[farside22]

stop making bad posts llama. plz.

unvote

not really a priority for now, I guess.

More like lets see some actual scum hunting from Llama. There is no protown excuse for not doing that.
Also Llama why did you pick LMP over GG or myself as the 3 to go back stage. Why Agar?
You never answered my question about Apok either.

[farside22]

Farside: are you saying Ythill acknowledged that Llama's play was scummy but didn't want to do anything about it?

He acknowledged Llama's play was off. There was talk about bring him backstage tonight to ask him some questions based on a theory he stated.

[farside22]

Well I was the main one who put stuff up on Ghost, and was the one actually giving some reasons to why I wanted a WC lynch at the end of the day. With the flips though and not having much time, I still am getting situated here, mostly reading through with my current reads. Jumping around on the OMGL pushers mostly who I still have a gut read that that is town.

#3 post when you put stuff up on Ghost was thus:

His entire early case against SGR is that SGR is trying to figure out what the ani case is somewhat inefficiently. I think its a good thing to try and force out that case, because im not too sure it exists at this point.

Then he repeats when ask how he came to the conclusion

His case on SGR being about the ani case thing is in his iso-3. As I have said in the past, I really dont see a case on ani. Even with people trying to argue it to me, I think its a very weak case at best, and ani is probably town at this point.

Mind there were 3 points brought up against ani, versus his one issue with Ghostlin
your first vote on WC

No reason noted here.

@Llama did you completely ignore the meta point I made on Morph?

Basically you had one post showing why Ghost was scum and called anyone else that was wagoned (but WC) town.

[farside22]

I still want answers to my questions here Apok

@Apok: Why did you think that Vezo's lack of explanation is scummier then what Nexus stated? Why when you asked your question to vezo and he/she didn't respond did you not ask again? Do you typically play UTR and low key in games?

[farside22]

OGML is town, no lynch or sacrifice for him today.

So far you have drunken posting. Declaring people town and ignoring any ones pov. Nexus didn't really come off town.
SGR comment about 2 scum teams are noted. I figure with 18 players I don't see 2 scum groups, unless the mod did 2/2 which seems pretty screwy and the second kill is a SK.

[farside22]

We should sacrifice today to revive vezo. I should be the one sacrificed.

Town post.

Hey OGML I want to go backstage again too, halp.

I'm seen scum do gambits to look town. I'm not bitting without OGML providing more thought process on who scum is.

Apok: What is your view on LLama and OGML electing you and why they did it? Do you agree with Llama's views on your play.

@Fate: Don't make me throttle you this game.

[farside22]

WHAT THE FUCK I DDINT CATCH UP YET NDA IM DRUNK AND JHADUO SHOULDA REPLACED ME SOONER

This was at 12:37am my time. Hence my drunken posting comment.

[farside22]

Why Farside? I'm right.

So your saying scum don't pull gambits to look more town? Your saying Llama is town based on..........???

[farside22]

The last person running this place just flipped scum.
I will however concede one point as I do want answers from Fate.

unelect: WC
Elect: Fate

[farside22]

@OGML: I don't trust you. I don't trust Llama. Every instinct I has screams that one of you is scum. Seeing a player come in and defend you two without a reason bothers me a lot.

Farside, I'm clearly the Vig that shot Ythill

SO

I could run this place.

HEHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA

What made you think that Ythill was scum?

[farside22]

*note I will finish my re-read, just not now. Maybe not even this game day. Apok is scum as scum can be. OGML is town as town can be (and I didn't even read the parts with the wagon on him)

Farside if it makes you feel anybetter, I'd bus the hell out of someone today to cement my town leadership slot, not call a scumbuddy town (you think its me+OGML+Llama apparently)

I don't know about you. Your definitely hyperactive but that doesn't mean crap. You know how I feel about you in general. Always wary.
I still want to know what made you think Ythill was scum.

[farside22]

@KK: You know Fate just claimed last page to be the one to vig Ythill.

[farside22]

Farside, I'm clearly the Vig that shot Ythill

SO

I could run this place.

HEHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAA

[farside22]

In hindsight reading this and knowing your weird ways this was probably a joke.
Sigh

[farside22]

@KK: Knowing Fate's play style it probably a combo of B or C.
Depends on his alignment.
Also I agree with KK that someone doing a catch up post (especially one that wasn't that indepth) isn't a town tell

[farside22]

@Town: Read everyone's posts today. Who's post screams the MOST of "our scum leader Ythill died! WUTNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

Apokalytpica.

Lynch please.

I read Apok's post and the first post of the day didn't scream that.

Till you makes sense and stop the spastic posting that doesn't show anything to me that makes sense I'm not listening to you.

[farside22]

Finally!!!!
God why do I have to pull teeth for something I can hang a hat on.

unvote:
vote: Apok

Also I think MOI is scum with Ythill. That argument between the two of them looks forced rereading it. Light bussing without voting and crap comments. Looking it remnds me of a game where I argued with my scum buddy.
Anyone will to Sacrifice MOI to get Vezo back with me.

Sacrifice: MOI
Resurrect: Vezo

[farside22]

Mod: Is there only one ressurect per game?

[farside22]

I'm reading the rules and I don't see a ressurct being once per turn.
If I'm correct using the sacrifice to bring back a KNOWN PR TOWN ROLE and getting ride of someone that is a scummy read helps the town.

Hell it's like 2 votes in one.

Speaking of which I still need my game to be filled and it does have 2 votes you can use. Come sign up I only need 6 more people!

Yes I'm pushing my own game while making a point how good getting rid of a second scum suspect will be.

[farside22]

So lets give the scum another day to not have a tracker to worry about? Is that what I'm seriously hearing from people?
Just because Vezo is not highly regarded he had a PR that is worth something.
I'm not waiting for lylo for a tracker that will be useless at that point.

@Seacore: What PR would you revive, when and why?

[farside22]

Using it on a PR is a waste of time, unless they died without revealing results.

If we revive Vezok. Vezok comes back D3, announces "I tracked X on Night 1, he didn't go anywhere" Vezok then, most likely, dies N3
If we use it on an information role that has had 3 or so nights of actions, then that would be well spent.

I'd rather use it on competent scum hunters. MoI or LMP die and don't flip scum, we bring em right back.

Or he has information and the scum or scared to revive him.

Fos: Seacore

[farside22]

Preview edit: Um...Farside? How would scum know if Vezo has info?

They don't but Seacore is saying Vezo does not, or if he does then it leads to no where. I suspect Vezo would track someone he was suspicious of. Whether the mod gave info to the player before he was killed or not I don't know.
Also I'm tired of people saying there is no doctor or acting like bring back a player will lead to their auto death. Hell there could be a watcher in the game. We don't know.

What does waiting one more day do LL? How does not bring back the tracker sooner help the town?

[farside22]

@LL: You do realize there seem to be 2 kills a day? I highly doubt that Ythill was vig killed. Did you crunch the numbers with the worst idea in your head yet? By day 4 it's already close to too late to get info. By Night 3 when there is a tracker to do something there should be 11 players alive. Waiting one more day is 9 players alive and possible MYLO depending on the set up.


What is your thought on the Apoko case?

[farside22]

Third:
@Farside: Why do you think Ythill was not Vig killed?

Many people thought Ythill was town. I think only Saint called out Ythill and I questioned his behavoir. MOI had a few choice words but other then that no one really seemed to believe he was scum.
Even the 3 of us backstage felt he was town. I can't see a vig kill toward Ythill. I think he even thought he was safe (wait he's scum that's why), but I know in my head I believed a doc would protect him. LMP stated as much BS as well.

[farside22]

Third:
@Farside: Why do you think Ythill was not Vig killed?

Many people thought Ythill was town. I think only Saint called out Ythill and I questioned his behavoir. MOI had a few choice words but other then that no one really seemed to believe he was scum.
Even the 3 of us backstage felt he was town. I can't see a vig kill toward Ythill. I think he even thought he was safe (wait he's scum that's why), but I know in my head I believed a doc would protect him. LMP stated as much BS as well.

So you're suggesting a SK?

Looking at the amount of players that started the game I'm having trouble seeing how the mod could have 2 scum teams without be terrible unbalances.

[farside22]

Really Farside?
Didn't I play Percy's Cults of Darkness and Shadow with you? Wasn't that a mini-theme of 6v3v3? Even if I'm entirely misremembering that (which I might be), 12 v 3 v 3 is entirely doable. Or are you overlooking that because you know you have more than two scum buddies?

No. I played in one of Percy's game that I recall. If you want to actually search and link it instead of your crap post that would be most lovely.

[farside22]

Ah, it was Faraday not you.

Anyway, my point is still entirely valid

What about 12 v 3 v 3 is unbalanced? Nothing that I have been given in my PM or in the rules suggest that it can't be two teams. So that suggests you have more information than I do.

Is there a reason your certain it is? I realize there could be a probability of a second scum because of the resurrection .

Second, with the whole Vezok thing, I really dislike her attempt at pushing suspicion onto anyone who opposed the idea, regardless of their logic, by saying "Why don't you want the tracker back? Are you afraid?" Multiple people have brought up valid points against the revival, most prominently that the tracker isn't really a strong role this early in the game, it gets stronger as the game goes on.

I pushed on one person as suspicious which was Seacore. That quoted statement was made only to seacore
Thank you for playing and making a mountain out of a molehill.

fos: Agar

I always find players scummy who exaggerate an action.
If lets say there is 2 scum teams that Seacore seems to be implying then doesn't that mean bringing back a town tracker helps the town more.
Oh wow how dare i want the town to win and bring back a PR that is more threatening to scum then town.
Let me ask you if Ythill had flipped town tracker instead of scum would we even be having this debate?

Also Seacore that game you thought I was in did scum win? I'm asking because I did make a statement about balance.

[farside22]

I’ll judge Fate on the results of his ‘suspicions’. If his ‘cases’ yield fruit quickly I’d suspect he’s scum looking to establish Town cred to make up for Nexus’s lurking and non-entitiy status. If his reads are bad I’d look closely at the people he buddies up to in the game if he survives. At least one of them is likely scum who will keep him around to drive mis-lynches.

Is there a reason you believe this? Is there examples you can share?

[farside22]

If you don't know if there is 2 scum groups or not why would you not only make this comment

Really Farside?
Didn't I play Percy's Cults of Darkness and Shadow with you? Wasn't that a mini-theme of 6v3v3? Even if I'm entirely misremembering that (which I might be), 12 v 3 v 3 is entirely doable. Or are you overlooking that because you know you have more than two scum buddies?

But then follow it up with IGMYOU?

[farside22]

elect GG
elect Llama
elect farside

vote: Seacore

revive: Apoko
Sacrifice: MOI

[farside22]

farside now that court is over explain why I wasn't called on unexplained (LIKE COMPLETELY UNEXPLAINED VOTES) there, please.

Which one? I knew about Llama reasoning. I know about this one. You talking about apoko? Or some other vote?

[farside22]

We're not lynching or sacrificing Seacore for obvious reasons + secret reasons kthx

fine.

unvote: Seacore
Vote: Agar

[farside22]

I still say AGar lynch is bad. If you trust my reads we lynch someone else.

You ask for trust and don't vote for anyone. REASONS WHY TOO WOULD BE AWESOME.

[farside22]

Okay..

What's the case on MagnaofIllusion? (Link or repeat it)

And how is he more scummy than OhGodMyLife?

Vote: OhGodMyLife

^^scum!

Did you miss the hammer from MOI where he didn't allow a claim? How is did that not even registered to you?
Why is OGML scum in your view?

[farside22]

Dammit farside22..

Some of us don't continue to play this game in the backstage and instead get caught up in their other games during the night phases.

*sheepishly goes back and re-reads stuffs*

Llama wasn't backstage and voted MOI. Your point?

[farside22]

Well don't worry KK, Farside didn't mention either until a bunch of us brought it up. In fact, she didn't mention it until she could make a case on you for it, and instead voted for two other people.

I'm sacrificing MOI. Nice of you to actually,.....idk read the game before throwing shit out again.
That's 2. You want to try for 3.

[farside22]

By the the way Secore any reason your not trying to ressurect a town PR today? What excuse do you have for today for not wanting it?

[farside22]

Actually lets me all on the same place here:

unvote:
vote: MOI

Unsacrifice
Sacrifice: Agar

Right now GG your going to need more then super secrete reasoning to convince me otherwise about Seacore.



Just got Seacore's post above before posting. I still find you suspicious, but Agar is my other one and he's too quiet in this game to ignore that request.

[farside22]

@Llama: why seacore? Do you still have a town read on KK/morph and did you ignore my meta reasons for finding morph scum? Is so why?

[farside22]

@Seacore: There was a lack of kill last night. Do you still believe a second scum team, or something else.

[farside22]

VOTE: Farside

Fuck it, I'm not electing anyone today, because Farside is right on some of my townreads, and I'm not trusting them until I see a flip.

No I'm not moving this vote.

No I'm not "explaining" it - if you can't see the shit play all game, you're blind.

OMGUS vote in progress.
Please do not disturb.

Who called Agar town again? Llama you want to give a reason yet?

[farside22]

Just a foot note I made during BS stage. You pointed out 2 games that had 2 scum teams that were 18 players and scum won both games. So my statement was made on looking at balance and your comment hasn't proved my thoughts wrong. I figure it would be scum sided doing 2 scum teams.
I had an issue with Agar making more of the situation then was there yesterday. He is either scum budding Seacore or scum partners. Yeah, yeah scum either way. But when I see someone defend another and post it as though I'm making a general statement it makes me go hmmmmmmmm.

[farside22]

number crunch time.

18 players in this game. If there are 2 scum teams 3vs3 sounds like too much leaving 12 town and 2 teams shooting can means day 2 worse case 3vs3 and 9 town. From then on you either need to scum hunt well or hope the scum team fail. There is a ressurect for 2 players so that can bring the town odds up. But I feel looking at the numbers town will statistically loss do to the shooting.
If the mod does 2vs2 then it's unbalance for scum as town get's more of advantage. I only played one game where a mod did 2vs3 scum team. Scum won but it was well thought-out game. Another game had 3 vs 3 (forgot the number of players) that had a rez ability but you didn't know the alignment of the player you rezz'ed. Town won that game.
I just see 18 players and don't see a good balance for 2 scum groups. This is also why I see a SK. It depends on something I have a theory about since day 1.

[farside22]

^LOL I have a split personality. That's so awesome.

What's your thoughts on what Agar said yesterday about you and me interaction wise? Why do you think he is scum?

[farside22]

I see a many frustrated people in regards to the backstage, which isn't helping.
Here is the problem. Because of Ythill being scum many of us had to come up with a plan. Every plan so far in one shape or another has failed.
First was Ythill's plan, which was to vote on one player and put pressure on that player like we knew something and see how people reacted. After Ythill's death and flip I felt Llama was scum because of things Ythill said BS. I did come to a conclusion last night during BS that made me rethink the connection of Ythill/Llama but I don't really want to share that just yet.
Today was another plan to vote for Fate and have in go nuts and fake that we had information. Him willing to be the patsy screamed town to me. Fate also explain his OGML town view, which actually was well reasoned. Since Fate died last night. It threw me off but everyone in the BS agreed that MOI's hammer of Apok and his overall play was the scummiest.

[farside22]

Farside : I was referring to you saying unexplained votes were scummy, yet as town in Zoraster's game you didn't find my unexplained votes scummy there. I'm wondering why. I still find the cognitive dissonance between two town games to be irksome to say the least.

I had a town read on Mina in that game day 1. Your actions that game did not change my views. This game very different ways from you that made me suspicious.

N2 we don't know, but I'm sure as hell suspicious of one of your backstagers from last night, and wouldn't be surprised if she was relaying information back to a team as well.

Do you have anything beside mud slinging?

@Llama: Are you saying there is another source you gain info on people from?

[farside22]

Along the same lines as Seacore's comments, what was Fate's super secret reason for OGML being town that he shared backstage? Now that Fate's dead is it a secret necessarily worth keeping?

Fate believed that OGML used the wagon on himself to look for scum. Basically play bad and look for those who use crap reasons to vote.
He also thought OGML was pushing SGR for information not for mislynch. I think reading Fate's views he saw it as OGML trying to gain information from those that jumped on those wagons.

It was actually something I didn't think about and OGML hasn't really responded to those reads he had if any. OGML any thoughts on Fate's views or reads if any you had during day 1?

Llama: I'm wondering about Robot (TM's) game. That is where my question is leading too. Since you stated your looking at Agar I'm assuming not role cop since you didn't equate possible GF into your thought process. Also I'm still looking for an answer about Morph and my meta post of him. Did you read it, think about it or analysis it?

[farside22]

That's why I asked OGML if he learned anything or if that was his plan and that he should expand.
MOI: Just one of those things that kind of bother me about you here. (1) the fight between you and ythill look fake. Neither voted for the other and it looked petty. Have you two had issues in the past that cause the reaction you had? (2) SGR point is valid but don't you usually look at the vote count when the game is moving fast before you place a vote?
hmmmmm

unsacrifice

sacrifice: Saint

[farside22]

this isn't INVESTIGATIVE ROLES EVERYWHERE mafia

I'm still voting MOI. Just changing the sacrifice around.
We still need to rez Apok today.

[farside22]

i'm almost sure I know what magna's gonna say anyway teehee.

are you still voting Agar for sacrifice? If so why?

[farside22]

Bringing Apoc back is worth using the first sacrafice though.

Why?

Why not? Seriously how long do you want to wait to bring back players that are PR's?

Grrrr I'm still feeling Agar scum. I honestly don't read town.

I'm going to reread a few people, but anyone that pushes a lynch without ressurecting the town PR should be lynched instead.

unsacrifice
sacrifice: KK

I don't like this hold off bullshit till X day without a good valid reason right now.

[farside22]

@KK: How many scum do you think is in this set up? And do you believe there is a second killing group?

[farside22]

Reason's we should sacrifice KK.

Notice I total believe bringing back a town PR helps the town. I'm not seeing a reason it doesn't help come from KK's post. People are like, oh we should wait till more people die look hella scummy as it means more people die and less town info.

I've played one game (that I can recall) with OhGodMyLife (url=http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=11392]Mini 786[/url]). He started very similarly by ignoring everything else to vote a hunch then look for who is chainsaw defending. Seems to be his MO. He was town in that game, but I admit I don't have any idea if he does the same thing as scum.

This was his day one read. Day 2 we have this:

Okay..

Confused with the cryptic backstage anti-LlamaFluff stuff.

I haven't re-read Day 1 yet, but I did read SGRaaize's summary of Ythill's actions and agree that OhGodMyLife is a strong contender for being Ythill's partner.

Will comment more & vote after re-read. Which I will probably get done early tomorrow.

Note KK's: scum/town list comments about SGR:

WTF is up with that "ATATATA" stuff? I don't agree with any of his reads, but I'm not getting consistently strong scum-motivated reasoning behind his actions. That said, I'm not thrilled with his backpedal on Ythill. Also he has a tendency to go out of his way to over-respond to every slightest accusation in order to try to re-write history.
Mild Scum Read

pot and kettle as well except worse

Sheeping Fate. (Nexus was a "torn on" read for you yesterday)

Willing to sacrifice OGML

If OhGodMyLife is volunteering to be sacrificed then he is scum. I'm in favor of sacrificing him to bring back vezokpiraka. If we do the ressurection gimmick, then vezokpiraka won't join us until the start of Day 3, which means we wouldn't be able to get a tracker result until Day 4 (unless he has a pre-mortem result from Night 1).

changes his mind here:

Actually, I'd like to read MagnaofIllusion's opinion of Nexus/Fate as well.

Re: the Ressurect/Sacrifice question..

I'm not seeing the benefit of using up one of our two ressurections right away. Vezokpiraka's one tracking result isn't super beneficial unless we've already done a mass claim and she can expose a liar. Plus she's not a terrible active or good scum-hunter. She's be a confirmed townie... but so what?

I think we need to hold off using the mechanic for at least another day to see if there's a better role/player to bring back.

I'm still not sold on the need to resurrect today. We only have 2 ressurections and a Watcher with 2 results is not a prime candidate for ressurection. Especially considering that any ressurected power role is perfect fodder from a scum-kill.

First Apoka had 1 results as he/she was lynched day 2. How do you know who was watched that day and why does it matter? Also did you notice or did it escape your attention there was one less kill last night then the night before?

KK has been hypocritical, he calls OGML town one day and switches the next based on a player he had a scum read on. Then calls OGML for sheeping Fate who was a "torn read"
He also thought people should wait a day to rez, but want's to wait another day with no reason.

He's scum that we should use to bring back our town watcher.

[farside22]

Way to dodge a question KK. I asked you when do you plan on doing a rez and why continue waiting another day? What do you think it will matter?
Also the fact there wasn't a second kill means either a doctor, rb or bp (typically) so how do you know that who ever comes back won't be saved by someone?

I'm placing money now that MOI will flip scum and Saint will flip SK at this point. Things about MOI's post don't add up. The thing about Saint talking about a RB tells me enough to change my sacrifice.

unsacrifice
sacrifice: Saint

Also I'm going to do something a bit odd right now.

unelect: Farside22
Elect: Secore

LMP has been too quiet and so is LL right now. I would rather Seacore come back there out of the 3 people with 4 votes.

[farside22]

MOI: Why did you "watch" Fate?

[farside22]

MOI: While I'm asking did you read the book?
If not you may not know that the character you are claiming was a very minor character in the game.
Consider that both Jaquel and Ibis worked together in the book I would have thought maybe the mod didn't think about the book, but a universal back up role for a minor character is hard to swallow.

Shadow will meet a Mr. Ibis and a Mr. Jacquel, who run a shabby-genteel mortuary for "the colored folk hereabouts" -- "hereabouts" being Cairo, Ill.

The character shows up in chapter 8 by the way. Usually hanging around Jacquel and talking to Wednesday. IE: minor character /= power role.

[farside22]

unvote:

I still want OMGL to reply about what Fate stated. Any reads he had/has.
I also want an answer from MOI about why he "watched" Fate.

[farside22]

Still no comment as to why you had ZERO outrage for SGR’s claimless mistake hammer but mine is a Death Sentence?

I have a null read on you day 1 and after ythill and day 2 I had a scum read on you. I have a town read on SGR. That is why you get noticed. I also mentioned that most people do look at the vote count so things like that happen.

LOL Saint is faking so bad it hurts now. Oh I had 50% chance but I was role blocked however I did try to protect Fate. If you were role blocked no one would have seen you target the player first of all. Coming out and stating RB then saying oh I had 50% change is just .........wow I don't have a nice word for it.
So if MOI did watch Fate Saint and you now have confirmed you targetted Fate, why didn't MOI mention anyone else targetting Fate?

@Llama: There is so much WIFOM behind your post that you will drive me nuts. Where is that post you promised about Seacore?

[farside22]

Sold!

vote: Seacore

unelect: Seacore
elect: Farside

[farside22]

Well, at least you are up front about your inconsistency.

I’m not sure exactly what the second line is supposed to mean.

God I really hate these let me throw shit comments from people.
The second is pretty clear. I'm making a statement that most people look at the vote count.

Also I realized one thing that doesn't make sense for MOI's role. He says it's limited back up role that is only getting the power of a player that is lynched. The likelyhood of that happening is not that often. The role sounds neutered. Now that Saint confirmed his visit it means there is some truth to MOI's claim but I have this itch I can't scratch with MOI's claim.

I need to look into a few things.

[farside22]

MOI: If you had a scum read on Ythill day 1 why did you keep disputing Saint's points against Ythill?
Case in point:

Um whut? He was at L-1 I believe until Locke and Ythill unvoted him. The same Ythilll you are saying should get scum-points for 'stalling the lynch".

Why is following Fate and hammering worthy of a vote on day 2?

But since you are getting a ‘pass’ let’s see how good Fate’s read is.

UNVOTE: OGML
VOTE: Apoc

Why are you posting in another game while ignoring this game before you hammered Apok?

If you know you saw player X target player Y and player Y is dead why would you chose to sacrifice that player instead of voting them?

[farside22]

OGML!!!! READ THE FUCKING GAME OR THE NEXT POST YOU MAKE THAT IGNORES MY QUESTION WILL GET MY VOTE ON YOUR ASS!!

[farside22]

@MOI: I don't put the hammer of town as my sole reason for finding you scummy. There are a few things I didn't like. The ythill interaction was one. But now I find this inconsistent with your claim.

Because Sacrificing is more helpful to Town than lynching if the target is Scum. It’s not rocket science there. My result on Saint meant the chances of him being a Town PR are pretty much Nil. No need to worry about bringing him back via Ressurection.

In your belief of Saint and saying you watched Fate get shot. Why not think he was a vig?
If he was a vig then voting out the role and seeing the flip would help the town if you are a town back up that you claim you are. Also if Saint is a SK do we know if he would flip just SK? What if there was more to him that you as a "back up" could have for the town.

Now a question to you – your first Sacrifice of the Day was to sacrifice me to resurrect Apoki. Why didn’t you vote me instead of sacrificing me? If it’s because you have a scum read on me then my conclusion is you are grasping at staws in your questioning here. Because you are softly insinuating my behavior is scummy (Sacrificing someone I have a scum read / info on instead of voting) when you did the exact same thing.

My read on you is not 100%. You saw watched Fate and he is dead and have only one person who you pointed out visiting Fate. That in itself is damning. Also see above about the PR possibility you didn't think about.


Now mind you this is all mute since Saint is claiming something all together unrealistic, but you never asked Saint what his read on Fate was or tried to see if there anything there.

Finally: I was not the one that had a town read on OGML. I made a statement that Fate had the read. He keeps dodging these points and it doesn't go unignored.

unvote:
vote: OGML

Seriously. I gave Fate's views so thoughts but the issue is none of what he stated has occured and you just come across as floating by scum.

[farside22]

@Farside - With that result from MoI, I dont see him thinking Saint is anything but scum. The only way it could mean Saint-town is if he was a vig who killed Ythill (who was fairly obv town to me and most) and then Fate (replaced Nexus so not an impossible, but improbable vig kill). I just dont buy it, and the claim cements it. MoI is probably town from all of this believe it or not.

Still say Sea > OGML.

This reminds me of one more question.

MOI: Is your back up ability for all alignments?

@Llama: OGML either needs a kick in the ass or he is scum lurking. There is still time for discussion on this.

[farside22]

Just needed to make sure I wasn't going crazy. But this is most definately a lie:

This thread opened Saturday. My last post in any of my regular games was Friday. My only posts in games on Saturday were Marathon games. I posted in none of my other on-going games. I didn’t have full time to post until Tuesday and guess what – this game was my VERY FIRST STOP.

I looked and on the 22nd you were not posting in a marthon game. You posted in one of your games. So I ask again since you were behind why follow Fate and not see what the vote count was? Why avoid this game for the day during the discussion when you were clearly on MS?

[farside22]

Im not saying quick lynch, but I still have a lingering town read from OGML day one, and his ask to be sacrafied added to that a bit. He has given back a few points as of late, but he isnt one of my prefered lynches. Will take more then "he lurks" to make me flip on that one.

I don't have a lingering feeling any more on OGML. Fate had a point but since OGML didn't follow threw it doesn't = town. Also the sacrafice is null. Scum could say it to look town, town says it when for reason's that I don't want to get into as it's more info for scum.

What points of late has he made?

[farside22]

@Llama: Why did you say that OGML has made points of late then?
What did you think of my comments on KK?

[farside22]

Mod: please prod SGR and LMP

They have been prodded. -Mod

[farside22]

@Seacore: Who else do you find scummy and why?
@Agar: I don't think anyone without some brain cells connect actually believes Saint at this point.

[farside22]

@MOI: Why would you "watch" Fate over Llama who was practically hitting people over the head that he had a PR?

[farside22]

Llama: I think it's a possibility that they're scum on the same team, although I agree that it would be a very risky play and the only real reason to do it as buddies would be for exactly that reaction, that people thought it was so unlikely scum-MoI would make a play that risky to throw scum-Saint under the bus that they were deterred from an MoI lynch. My more favoured theory links to what Farside stated at one point: that they're both anti-town but Saint is SK/scum of another faction and MoI has a scum role that has given him the information that Saint killed Fate. That, plus the points that the complexity and nature of MoI's claim seem incongruous with simpler roles and a revive mechanic, and that you were a more obvious watch target than Fate, give me a lot of doubt about the claim. We all seem to agree it's pretty likely that Ythill's killer was not town, so this seems like an entirely plausible scenario to me. If MoI can satisfactorily explain why he thought Fate was a better protect target when you were dropping huge hints that you were a PR, I'll probably be more inclined to believe him.

LL and I have the same theory. WTF I need to go see a specialist now or call hell and see if it froze.

[farside22]

@MOI: What soft claim from Fate?

[farside22]

OGML: Why would you vote for any of the 3 you mentioned????
Share info and explain.

Saint: Who is scum in your view and why?

I know longer feel MOI is 100 % scum it's more 70% along with theory. I read thru his responses and although I disagree with Llama on some things I did forget about other things in the game that gives me pause.

I still find OGML sliding through this game without a blip and it's bugging the crap out of me. Seacore and KK are my main scum suspects.

unvote:
vote: Seacore

MOI's role can be provable. He watched Fate (although I disagree with his reasoning) it was proven. Saint is claim SK (which I expected) I still think there is an off shoot of scum gaining the role that MOI is claiming and his name claim (although I'm probably more paranoid) may be fake. I still don't like a few things from him, but I don't feel his lynch should be today.

[farside22]

hmmmmm not sure about Seacores claim. KK went out of his way to disprove it, but doesn't have a reason so far stated in game why he thinks Seacore is scum.

[farside22]

unvote:
vote: KK

I know people want more, but I read Seacore's views, comments and reason's and I believe there is a way to prove Seacore's role at this point, which I will discuss with Llama tonight if we are both still back stage.
Seacore if you are truely what you claim, you commute tonight.

fos: MOI

I don’t disagree that Commuter is a fairly well know role. My issue is that it is more a very common fake-claim for scum (I know, I used it myself in Return to Liten). It explains why you haven’t been killed.

After everyone questioned your role from here to sunday and to claim it as a fake claim without reason. Yes I want a fucking case from you on why you believe Seacore is scum at this point that has nothing to do with the claim.

[farside22]

Sorry MOI I just can't shake this scum read I have on you.
You did make points I forgot about. I retract the fos.

WC: You don't see KK as scum? Any reason why?

[farside22]

ATTENTION PLAYERS THAT HAVE A TOWN WIN CONDITION: I have a way to prove Seacore is telling the truth or not. Please unvote and vote second scum suspect or KK would be awesome.
I would rather see if Seacore is a commuter (which has always been and I have yet to see a scum role) or lying scum we can lynch/and/or sacrifice tomorrow if he is.
Thank you,
farside

[farside22]

I don't have 100% confidence in farside22's ability to lead town correctly. And I see that the plan relies on SECRET BACKSTAGE SHENANIGANS (again).

And? You think the mafia should be let in on the idea and the plan? Do you want to lynch Seacore with the possibility his role can not only be proven but is almost always a town role?
If so why?

Seriously? farside22 thinks that OhGodMyLife is more town than me? With posts like this?

farside22 claims to have taken off the Fate-blinders, but is refusing to recognize that OhGodMyLife has gone from "sacrifice me!" when things looked bad after Ythill scum-flipped to pushing for my lynch over his. And everyone is voting for me why? Because farside22 said so? Her whole case on me based on the idea that I'm scum because I'm not consistently keeping the same reads (aka I'm changing my mind as the game evolves).

How about people wake the fuck up and realize that changing reads isn't scummy, but changing behavior is?

OGML is on my radar. I have a few issues that bother me. They concern you and Agar. (yes I know Llama's claim and it still does not discount GF).

[farside22]

Its not that complex KK, it's actually using Backstage well.

Farside either has an ability or knows somebody backstage has one. She'll instruct that person to target me. Tomorrow they claim (possibly through code to not completely out themselves) whether it was successful or not.
This is a good plan, because scum can't automatically kill whoever it is doing the action so I can actually be cleared.

However, it does assume that there are no scum backstage.

Remind me to smack you later.

[farside22]

Not a ton of time to post right now.

Call me non-plussed about Farside's plan. Confirming Seacore's role as a commuter doesn't necessarily confirm his alignment, especially in a game with a Serial Killer. That said obviously there is strong enough support.
.

I have yet to see commuter be a scum role. You have links or games you ever saw a scum hider or commuter I would be open to this WIFOM.
I have been a town commuter in one game with a SK so.........for me it's not outside the realms to see town commuter.

[farside22]

Didn’t take as long as I thought –

Kise’s Square Enix I was the game in question I was remembering. May be more occurances that I do not know about.

10. Chronopie - Cagnazzo (Archfiend Commuter) - Lynched Day 5

Archfiends were one of two Mafia factions. Now I grant you that we are unlikely to have two Mafia factions here but I don’t see a Serial Killer as ruling out the possibility for a Scum Commuter.

hmmm okay that is worth considering. I know I never saw it any game I was ever in.
I need to think on this a bit. Reevulate and consider all points.

[farside22]

No offense when I say this but I don't trust you completely Llama.
I have a few days to look over a few people, namely OGML, KK and Seacore.
I also have an issue Llama with you continuing to ignore KK and any case present on him.

For now I'm going to take my sick self off of MS for the day and get some sleep.

[farside22]

sigh
I just can't do the hammer without reading a few things. I do somewhat agree with your logic on OGML but I don't discount scum doing the same when they realize they have no outs too.
ya, ya catch 22.
I should have the reads today. I just need my brain to check in first.

[farside22]

KK -

Ugh.. First Ythill was scum, now Fate is. We're just not catching a breaking in this game.

If OhGodMyLife is volunteering to be sacrificed then he is scum. I'm in favor of sacrificing him to bring back vezokpiraka. If we do the ressurection gimmick, then vezokpiraka won't join us until the start of Day 3, which means we wouldn't be able to get a tracker result until Day 4 (unless he has a pre-mortem result from Night 1).

What changed between this ^ and below:

Actually, I'd like to read MagnaofIllusion's opinion of Nexus/Fate as well.

Re: the Ressurect/Sacrifice question..

I'm not seeing the benefit of using up one of our two ressurections right away. Vezokpiraka's one tracking result isn't super beneficial unless we've already done a mass claim and she can expose a liar. Plus she's not a terrible active or good scum-hunter. She's be a confirmed townie... but so what?

I think we need to hold off using the mechanic for at least another day to see if there's a better role/player to bring back.

What has backstage done to stop your scumhunting?

Are you shitting me? Do I really have to quote mine this game and come up with dozens of "We'll sort that out BS" and "X is town for backstage reasons" posts?

No I don't see how what happens backstage stops you from looking for scum.


KK also never once state any suspicion on Seacore, but with the claim and finding a talk about it elsewhere on MS votes for him.
This seems very opportunistic and lazy. I E: Can't find anything in game but looked through MS instead. Why?

There is a few things I found that make me think my first instinct and view with Morph is wrong. I find a few good nuggets of thoughts but it's hard to shake a few things that don't make sense either.
See above.
@KK: what is your view on LMP and why do you find me scummy?

Note:
Yay ooba!!!

[farside22]

@LLama and I say this mostly to you. I see nothing town in OGML except the sacrifice me comment which is null.
On day 1 he calls Apok town then when the wagon goes on him for the link, shows links to Ythill/Apoko. He ignores any questions asked to him. He then votes Seacore when he has no case before or stated suspicion like he claims he had.
All in all if OGML isn't scum he sure as hell is anti-town.

unvote:
vote: OGML

Consider this vote permante unless something so horribly scummy comes from Seacore I can't deny the scumtude.

[farside22]

Consider this vote permante unless something so horribly scummy comes from Seacore I can't deny the scumtude.

Over/Under on posts from Sea before deadline/lynch due to this - 1.1

So your ignoring everything scummy from OGML for willing to sacrifice and vote himself then?

[farside22]

And if Seacore flips town what then?
My issue is those lurkers and lack of comments coming from people that are hopping on the BW who haven't said shit all are taking any oppotunity that is found. OGML is going to be staying in this game. I say this whether town or scum. Seeing him as scum and my belief that Saint is SK, the person who has shot 2 people now means he'll live. If OGML is town then no scum would ever kill him because he will bring the town down.
Honestly I'm not going to be responsible for it either way.
You want anti-town with no good reason to think he's town stay in the game, then tell Morph to rejoin and take his spot.

I also believe a few people I have read that give me town vibes who dont' see Seacore scum. I'm going with that instinct for now because reading anything today has turned fuzzy with fever.

[farside22]

@MagnaofIllusion - The above is typical of why I've been so frustrated with farside22's play. It's not town. This is twice now that I've caught her asking questions I've already answered. And both times it's immediately after she alledgedly ISO'd me to look for inconsistencies/hypocrasies. She's framing, not scum-hunting.

I also asked why you didn't find anything in the game but had no issue seeing something posted in MS.
That isn't the same question. Seriously if your going to throw crap at me at least be actually truthfull about your case.
IE: no opinion to sudden looks scum because of something outside of the game!

Well that's a lynch. If Seacore is scum I'll be surprised.

[farside22]

Thats three votes. Not a lynch. We need another four votes for that to happen, with any luck it happens fast as we are under 48 hours to deadline now.

Ah I missed Saint's unvote. I saw 6 votes on the last count and 7 to lynch.
Unless I missed something from the mod. How do you get 4 more votes required?

[farside22]

Because thats how many we need to lynch Sea.
OGML still at L-1, the delay in "thats a lynch" made me think you were talking about KK hammering Sea

Man I hate being sick. If no one hammers in 24 I'll do it then. I really want a day where I can sit and read Seacore that has nothing to do with gut would make me feel better and a lynch is required for the rez I noticed

Ugh time to get off this damn computer.

[farside22]

farside's recent posting has destroyed my townread on her. Also you and her being scum together and talking the town into not lynching you today and then concocting a story to try to confirm you would be pretty much worst case scenario so I'd rather just lynch you now.

Yes because someone who isn't reading the game or actually making a case on anyone that hasn't accused them of being scum looks SO FUCKING TOWN!

Why has it taken you til deadline today to come to this conclusion? OGML hasn’t suddenly spammed the thread with scummy posts. He’s been playing this way since Day 1 when he caught heat.

I'm in too many games I shouldn't have signed up for and needed a reread to remind myself of things. Shoot I'm not going to remember every detail of every player without going back.

ooba: Did you forget that Ytill was scum in post 1426? Saint killing Ythill makes sense as SK and I believe scum would use information to help their side take down the SK. That is why part of MOI's claim feels like and I have seen it happen before.
Do you think Saint is scum with Ythill? Is so then who killed Ythill?

no I thought you meant like we were using it as a way to communicate results AS I SAID GOT EXCITED.

why don't you want to lynch kublai khan? also we're pretty obvtown here, people need to stop suspecting us.

Because farside pushed KK .. (and she's my no.1 suspect) ..

Addn: I think all the times I've played with Furc are town. I see a link between farside and Saint mainly because she ignored the fight and tried to get someone else sacrificed. That's the only reason I think he won't flip SK - because he and farside seem like scum together.

Lets see the lynch first hmm. I love you a lot for freaking but really I have my theory and you have yours. Nothing is fact till Saint flips.

I don't know if I ignored the fight, I recall the fight between Saint and MOI but that's about it.
Right now research is not on my to do list and going back to sleep is.

Also I have been calling morph/kk scum since day 1. I can't shake it completely.
I also have this strong link with KK/Agar I can't shake either.

Ugh!!! I really don't have the energy to read. I know I'm going back to sleep too. My head is a fog of crap. I just don't believe in my gut that Seacore is scum. Yes I'm back to gut.

[farside22]

Llama and those voting Seacore: Please explain why OGML who has done nothing but follow and OMGUS any player then dares call him out is town besides the sacrifice talks.

[farside22]

So, the prime number thing was actually a complete coincidence. I wanted to claim my actual role, the one I'd breadcrumbed. But if I survived the claim, I didn't want to give the scum perfect knowledge of when I'd be vulnerable. I knew just claiming odds wouldn't work. So I looked at some other series that would. Fibonacci didn't. Prime did. I went with that.

UGH. I swear if this is true I hate you Seacore.

[farside22]

Well then you hate me. Because it is. If I had known about chess's idea, I probably wouldn't have claimed the prime number thing, but still, what's wrong with my mostly truthful claim. If I was able to survive I could have made the scum waste another kill on me down the track.

You also had an idea what I was thinking to see if your claim had any truth to it. You would have been lynched tomorrow as lying scum had I done my plan.

[farside22]

llama's busy getting ready to claim every 3rd night cop of varying sanity.

moi's role still sticks out like a fucking sore thumb in a set-up with tracker, watcher and commuter.

Agreed.

Was Llama serious about being a Lyncher?

[farside22]

I doubt he would have unclaimed it, as his victory would have been assured.

And I too have noticed who stayed to discuss the game with me and who has fled the thread.

Damn I wish he hadn't, could have used a Tarp.

Llama: you/me talk Backstage and no BS. Seriously your on my shit list right now.

[farside22]

If you don't know what you claimed in this game then I'm lynching you first thing tomorrow, if I'm dead I'm sure GG will agree with me on after a few words backstage.

[farside22]

If you don't know what you claimed in this game then I'm lynching you first thing tomorrow, if I'm dead I'm sure GG will agree with me on after a few words backstage.

Ive done a pretty good job at disguising my claim in this game I think, so you will be sorta surprised I think.

I hate you.
No seriously. If you let scum walk out do to you being a true lyncher then I absolutely hate you and I will put in my desire to mods that I don't want alt winners (Jesters/lynchers) in a game ever after this game end whether your one or not. That is how much your "claim" has pissed me off.

[farside22]

grumble
I was not expect Agar to flip town. I feel like I need to throw all my notes out and start this with a fresh view.

[farside22]

Okay I'm going over day 1 interaction with Ythill a bit. Things that haven't changed in my head.
The interaction between WC and SGR (now ooba) I believe was scum (ythill) going after the easy wagon on town.

I don't care for how Ythill jumps off the OGML wagon at L-1 and switches to ghost. It feels like scum trying to save his scum buddy. Also I note LMP had the same read as ythill and attacked the same people he did. This rubs me the wrong way because again it's going after WC for weak reason's and I felt and still fell wasn't how I read WC.

I still feel iffy about Llama. I almost want to ask a question to see if there is any truth to what he stated. We have one more rez.........I'll think about it for the day and crunch some numbers.

For now at this point my top two suspects are OGML and LMP

vote: OGML

Still will continue my read and reminder.

[farside22]

Its like every day farside has to throw out her reads and start all over again. That convenient.

Umm no. I had Agar and KK since day one and still pushed on day 3. You know if you actually read the game instead of sliding by throwing shit out that was either scummy or anti-town you might actually know this.

[farside22]

MOI: Let me get back to you on GG in a bit.

GG: What was your view of Ythill on day 1?

[farside22]

MOI: Here are a few things that don't make sense about GG that I recall off the top of my head.

1) He thinks Ythill is town day 1, yet he doesn't vote him backstage. I find this odd behavoir. I know most people day 1 were voting for those they had town reads on and GG didn't vote for Ythill. I looked at the final count day 1 for BS and noted that everyone voting Ythill that has flippled is town. There is only 4 people (this includes myself) that have not flipped. I know I'm town and I'm wonder if the scum didn't want a connection to Ythill, but this still doesn't explain everything.

2) He thought Seacore was town and he thinks OGML was town at the end of the day but he chose to lynch a claimed PR over a VT claim. That makes no sense as town. Why would you lynch a PR over a VT claim if you feel both are town.


On a side note: I love how I call LMP out and all the sudden he agree's with OGML about something that isn't even true.

[farside22]

yeah because it's not like we've given an explanation of why we hammered seacore. never done that. not even once. if you feel both are town you lynch the one who' slightly more likely to be scum. this is fucking obvious. continue to ignore the perfectly valid explanation in the thread, I mean KK and MANGA are doing a pretty good job, KK won't even respond to my OGML town tells with words (SCARED)

i assume we had stronger townreads on the other people we voted to go backstage day 1.

While OGML has done absolutely nothing but slide by without explain any read or anything but saying you lost your town read because I find him scummy. Seriously how in any realm was OGML townier then Seacore?

[farside22]

He's an obvtown townie and has been since day 1. Just because he's 'sliding by' doesn't make him scum. He's probably got stronger towntells than most players in the game (well maybe I'm being hyperbolic here but eh, it's pretty close)

Where? Show me where he has made a case or show anyone as scum based on any read he's had.

Oh wait you can't the only one he pointed out was Apok who flipped town.

[farside22]

well he's voting KK and wanting sacrafice MOI. he's done well finding scum. Making a case doesn't make one a townie. In fact it's not any sort of tell at all.

Based on what? Its my case yesterday on KK. No one else said much of anything.
In short OGML's "reads/ (aka votes" are following BW's without saying a word. As I stated yesterday the one case he managed to make was on Apok and looks to be saving his own ass more then anything else as on day 1 he had a town read on Apok.
That doesn't = town.

[farside22]

Still not changing my vote.

Elect: WC, Ooba and farside22

Apok is already heading backstage and I have a town read on WC and ooba above all else

[farside22]

1. You mention that only 4 people from the Ythill support have not flipped. This is Llama, ooba (was SGR), LMP and OGML. I’m curious why you include yourself on that list. Per the end of day voting you were not supporting Ythill. Why do you include yourself in that list?
2. What do you make of the fact that Ythill was not supporting himself but did support all three of the others who went Backstage (yourself, LMP and Gaggle)?

I thought I saw I had voted him backstage.
It's hard to say with Ythill. I feel like his votes were a bit all over the place and he initially stated he had trouble reading GG, then nominates him. He argued with GG backstage for the same thing he (almost) as me. I found it more nitpicking attacks. These are the points in favor of GG town, based on interaction and why LMP was on my scum list as I went back to N1 and he barely said much of anything BS.
Also Llama thinking I'm scum based on BS makes no sense. I even told him why I was paranoid of you and my theories. I also don't trust Llama 100% because he claimed he was protecting a PR however he was willing to flush that player out today by fake claiming (hence why I don't believe much from him today).

@KK: Where you not the one who claimed to have a mild town read day 1 on OGML. Don't be a hypocrite.

[farside22]

I'm about ready to bluntly ask my question. We have 1 more rez and Llama just rubs me wrong on too many levels not to ask this.
Just a point when I ask this question we do have a watcher so the person, if they exists, knows it's safe to claim in order to help the town.
Is there someone who is an amnesic cop in this game? If so can you explain if you know who your sending the info to?

[farside22]

ps fate should be revived tomorrow instead of a pr.

Not just no, but hell no. He was responsible for Apok's death. He also spams the thread to the point of hurting the game.
I would rather bring back a PR then fate.
Also stop lying it's time to see if Llama is telling the truth or not.

[farside22]

@farside - Are you claiming that Llama claimed to be getting results from someone else backstage?

No. He stated he didn't know who. He also stated he wanted to fake claim results because for some reason that makes no sense he thought it was a possible scum role even though he had been protecting the person for 3 days.
IE: I think he is lying his ass off.

Honestly this cop discussion should stop right now .. Because Saint "claimed" some anti-roleblocking abilities so I anticipate a Mafia RB - so even with a watcher, the investigative role is next to dead if they claim ..

I am reading D2 now since I couldn't finish it yesterday .. Will give me thoughts after that ..

We should revive Vezo ..

Ooba see above. I understand your point but that means the watch. Also if you read all of Saint's rants he was pretty much saying anything he could to try and save himself.

[farside22]

Ooba there was still one less kill done on I think N2. The one where Fate died. That either means the mafia attempted to kill SK (Usually SK's are NK immune) or a doctor in the game. I also find a watch/track and now an amnesic cop near impossible to believe
Why am I on your scum list, Hell why is WC on your scum list after day 1 ythill interactions?

[farside22]

Oh look someone who doesn't think OGML is scum and he's kissing his ass. Seriously Ooba how can you read day 1 and Ythill unvote and leading the wagon elsewhere away from OGML and call him town?

[farside22]

Lynch preferrence - A Gaggle of Geese, Locke Lamora, coinflip between WrathChild & farside22.

Based on what?
And yes reads can change however your asking GG about his read on OGML day 1 where had a mild town read. That's why I called you a hypocrite.
Now I think your just following what ever MOI says at this point without giving your own reasoning.

I swear if OGML is town I'm adding him to my blacklist of people I never want to play with again for shitty play.

Unvote

I actually missed Agar's flip other then VT.

vote: KK

Follow, follow, follow. And if you actually read the last few pages between MOI and GG you would get an argonant asshole read by reading GG that doesn't = scummy.

[farside22]

@LL: Who is scum in your view then?

[farside22]

Sacrificing moi doesn't end the day

Sacrifice: MOI

I agree with Llama about bringing back the tracker over VT. Hello, watcher/tracker FTW.

rez: Vez

And I still think Llama is lying.

However a question to LMP: After you actually get your head out of your ass how about a case with that vote.

[farside22]

Oh and FTR Llama you never answered my question from yesterday about why you think I'm scum based on bs from the day before?

Elect: Apok, GG, Farside

[farside22]

Finally: I'm assuming by MOI's reaction this could be LYLO I think it's claim time.
I claimed backstage to people and it was also my reason for believe that MOI had a fake name claim. I'm Mr. Jacquel.
Hence my comments the day claimed the character he did. I find Mr. Jacquel in the book tied to another character and me a plain VT but the other with PR that makes sense to people and I'm going to question it to death.

[farside22]

Farside - once again you couldn't be more wrong. Why would there be fake-claims if mod RANDOMIZED the characters alignments? DERP.

Well see with your flip if I'm paranoid with my thought process or not MOI. Yes the mod confirmed the characters were randomized which means the claim you made with the character matched up too much or was a fake name you used. I don't know which till you flip and the mod says your character name next to the word scum.

[farside22]

Oh and FTR Llama you never answered my question from yesterday about why you think I'm scum based on bs from the day before?

Secret reasons. I am going to be floored beyond reason if everyone who was backstage with me is town. I honestly cant see it happening. I have a strong town read on GG, a town read on LL, so its somewhat PoE. This is something that I will explain after amnesic claims (or not).

So it's all based on magic, smoke and theory.

Weren't you also the one saying the MOI's role was more town then scum.

@Sea - We are not lynching MoI anymore given the results claim. See my arguement earlier for why it makes more sense as a town then scum role. Given how bad Saint seemed to butcher his "claim", I think MoI caught scum. With the info role stuff I know about, MoIs role actually seems balanced.
.

You also refused and put to stop the MOI wagon based on his claim refusing to see the possiblity that was mentioned about a SK being targetted and a fake claim. Especially when you, LL and GG were like I don't think there is a doctor in the game.

vote: Llama

[farside22]

farside's points against confirmed scum MOI are bad..,.uh yeah. confirmed scum having bad points made against them >_>

need to check why moi wasn't lynched btw. like, who helped derail his fucking wagon after the ~AWSUM~ fakeclaim.

Look at Llama for details on that.

[farside22]

Well we need to rez today. I'm pretty sure this is lylo and since OGML is being a fucktard instead of playing the game lets do this:

unrez: Vezo

Rez: Fate

Oh and I'm going to say it again since OGML is not fucking reading this game. You are on my blacklist whether town or scum officially. Your play is God Awful to the point that you should if your town asked for a fucking replacement, especially when you noticed how people perceived you. I don't care that your trying to fake shit and Llama is opportunistic enough to notice it (especially as scum waiting to lynch a townie).

Finally in regards to Llama he has no case so he's making shit up. That is why he is scum. He also isn't reading the thread, because I mentioned the day MOI was close to lynch the possible SK theory, which he ignored, then started the wagon on Seacore.

[farside22]

Mod: I'm on LA this weekend.

[farside22]

Well we need to rez today. I'm pretty sure this is lylo and since OGML is being a fucktard instead of playing the game lets do this:

unrez: Vezo

Rez: Fate

farside, out of curiosity, why did this cause you to change your resurrection vote?

Because Fate has the most vote on him for rez and since I'm town and I believe this to be Lylo based on Moi's comments yesterday I believe scum will be eager to lynch me. I'm hopping with rez'ing a town that it won't lose us the game.

[farside22]

Finally in regards to Llama he has no case so he's making shit up. That is why he is scum. He also isn't reading the thread, because I mentioned the day MOI was close to lynch the possible SK theory, which he ignored, then started the wagon on Seacore.

You are using that key word again "possibility". Not going to lynch someone who had a proveable result on a "possibility". You actually were the one heavily pushing that Saint was SK over mafia for reasons that I never really picked up, and that was a pretty odd conclusion to come to given that there really wasnt much to point in that direction, as anything from Saint was basically WIFOM after the resultant claim from MoI.

Nice to see you continuing to wait for a amnesic claim.

umm lets see MOI voted from me, LMP voted from me and OGML is being a fucktard, sooo scum hammering should be happening soon.
Also Fate dead and MOI's "watch" claim makes sense for mafia who targetted Saint for a kill then actually watching Fate for his fake reason's, which I note you never questioned either.

[farside22]

Look llama scum is waiting for WC for hammering.
Anyways I'm out for dinner. Apoka seriously your smoking crack. OGML your an asshole who I had respected till this game.
Llama I hate you when your scum.

[farside22]

I wanna lynch llamafluff now. I don't think we have a gunsmith.

This. Also if Llama is claiming truth why didn't he "investigate" one of the 3 people backstage that he "believes" is scum.
Seriously Apok wake up and smell the coffee.

GG I will blame you the most if town loses this game (which we will thanks to OGML) for not lynching him over Seacore that day.

[farside22]

Oh missed the unvote on me.

Hurry before scum come back and hammer me people.

unrez: Fate
Rez: Vezokpiraka

[farside22]

Also for those that are the last town left in the game. Please reread Llama.
Not once did he mention any of his issues on my points against MOI the day I pointed it out. He's just trying to make a mislynch happen. Also see how hard he pushes against the MOI lynch.

[farside22]

I wanna lynch llamafluff now. I don't think we have a gunsmith.

This. Also if Llama is claiming truth why didn't he "investigate" one of the 3 people backstage that he "believes" is scum.

When did I claim that I never tried to? All I have actually told you was that I got roleblocked, not roleblocked trying to investigate one of the people backstage or not. At this point you are the one who is reaching for points to try and get me lynched (also unless you AND LL are scum, odd say off backstage is better)

Vote Farside

@chess/GG - Another reason im happy with vezok back. Can confirm me.

Supposedly scum llama had this read from our backstage people Yet you "investigated" LMP. How much sense does that make.
You also avoid Ooba asking you why you "investigated" SGR or LMP. So do you have the balls to post why yet?

FUCKING READ THE GAME APOKA I ACTUALLY PUSHED FOR MOI'S THE LYNCH WHILE LLAMA BLEW HIM OFF COMPLETELY.

[farside22]

GG: GET YOUR ASS IN HERE AND PUT YOU FUCKING REZ IN BOLD.

Anyone not rez'ing at this point is scum that should be lynched post haste, including Llama who is lying.

Also for the reading pleasure of the town you should read how often Llama fake claims in a game when he has no out

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16952

He did it this game because no scum buddy wants to be linked in case he's lynched that is why he is fake claiming gunsmith without explain any of his so called investigations.

[farside22]

I want everyone to read this and then vote Llama

I already posted why I investigated SGR in my claim post. It was one of those reads that I wanted solidified since it would be one that I could base other reads off of (like Sea).

The lying scum is saying he investigated players he had a solid read on a player and never, ever had a scum read on. He also seems to think that a VT claim BS would have saved him from death telling scum his role. Plus he says I didn't want to waste doing an investigation on the one person I had a scum read based on POE instead of verifying the read that is based on weak reasoning.

Oh yeah baby I will bring up your fake claiming ass to show how you do it and why. It's when your caught and can't get out of a trap.

[farside22]

Funny I was going to say something similar. I gambited, you bit and pulled the block off me, probably used MoI to find out there was no amnesic, and are now right back to blocking me with the hope of not going down WITH MoI today.

Please your "I voted MoI" arguement too. After that hammer, he really had no real chance of making it too far in the game, you probably knew that, and im guessing he told at least one of you to bus him hard to get extra town points. That also explains how you "knew" that Saint was going to flip SK instead of mafia.

Anyone who reads the link will see how you protect your scum buddy and cover for them. You keep flailing there it's so cute to me.

My VT claim very likely did save me from being killed, and it did allow me another investigation result, that a point for me. The last part has a bit too many pronouns for me to be sure what you are talking about, but if you are now going off on my N4 attempt - Im not going to investigate backstage because the only way that my odds are better of hitting scum is if you and LL are scum together. Otherwise there are probably three scum left, and knowing LMP was already town, and a town read on GG, LL and OGML, it gives me the backstage scum, and a pool of just WC off the wagon, which is going to be useful in making sure of a OGML read (and possibly LL), since town-WC means that one of them is scum.

Blah, blah, blah. You were the one who just claimed to have a scum read on me with BS people based on POE so why did you not investigate me that night?????????
Also if your not looking at the night kills lately tells me all I need to know. Did you notice a pattern for the kills Llama? Did you notice who the scum targetted? Why would scum target the VI's during the first few nights?
If you say you don't know I know your lying.

Soldifiy - To become solid. I had somewhat of a town read on SGR after the flip from Apoc, but it was one of those that I really wanted to be sure on, so yes I used up an investigation there. There were points where I went back and forth on SGR, but I figured it was time to ice the slight town read on him and move on. You dont investigate people you have a solid read on, you investigate people that you have no read on, or people whos alignment is going to be pretty important for your next few moves.

Investigating someone for a solid read again this doesn't explain why you didn't investigate anyone back stage to SOLDIY YOU SO CALLED READ ON ANY OF US THREE THEN!

Dear town people,

Please look at how inconsistent Llama is. First he says he picked people to Solidify his read, but doesn't explain why he didn't investigate any of the 3 people backstage to solidify any of those reads.
Then instead of "investigating" someone he finds scummy to, you know, look for scum instead he doesn't and has not given a reason for why he find me scum. All he has is POE. He hasn't even explained his "town reads"

Sincerely,

Mr. Jacquel (Old God) vanilla townie

[farside22]

Before I leave for the day I also want to point out that I had a plan for Seacore to prove he was telling the truth but Llama poo'ed it here

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

His reason's BS was it wasn't him doing the checking so why Llama did you not want to verfiy Seacore?

[farside22]

Llama: I have been gone most of the day and I noticed you completely ignored responding to this quesiton

Before I leave for the day I also want to point out that I had a plan for Seacore to prove he was telling the truth but Llama poo'ed it here

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

His reason's BS was it wasn't him doing the checking so why Llama did you not want to verfiy Seacore?

[farside22]

Apok: Short good response, what do you find scummy about my play. What do you think of Llama's lack of response or desire to clear a PR the day he could have but chose not to?

[farside22]

RE: Llama Re-Read
Here's what really bothers me about Llama. Day 1 Llama basically claimed an innocent on Agar, but Apok and Fate were killed Night 2. Fate I could see, but Apok's kill was a mystery. Why would Apok get killed and not Llama? The only reason I could imagine is that he would be a potential Doc target and WIFOM. I can see a block instead of a kill on Lllama subsequent nights, but not night 2.

Don't forget Llama also stated he was "trying" to get scum to target him but doing his claim day 1, but then switched it day 3 or night 3 saying he was protecting what he believed was an amnesic cop, then claimed gun smith, but refused to help the claimed PR prove he was town and proceed to vote a claimed PR he could have proved was town if he had an investigation like he claimed.

[farside22]

Day 1: Fluff argument with Ythill over saying "my" in a sentence. Never indicated real suspicion of MoI or Ythill.

That was all ythill. That was his weak attack method, which he also did to GG back stage

Night 1 backstage: There was a point where farside, talking to Ythill, said "you and me" in a situation that sounded very off. It really feels like a scumslip.

I don't recall this and have to go, can you quote so I know what you are talking about please.

Day 2: Throws out a sacrifice vote on MoI, which wasn't really going anywhere. Admittedly, could be honest, but could very easily be distancing.

I believed in Sacrifice to get a PR but got many people who didn't agree with me. I found with Ythill's flip that MOI scum flipped based on his weak argument against Ythill, which as I stated then was based on how I acted as scum in another game. (note find link for this when I have more time)

Day 3: Starts off very aggressive on MoI, but eases off a lot. FoS's him, then retracts it. I think scum were prepared to bus MoI for the quickhammer, but then were relieved when they didn't have to.

MOI was the scummiest to me this day and I pushed (at least I felt) the hardest, even with the fake claim I didn't by it because it didn't make sense and I questioned MOI about why he did "watch Fate" Why is this scummy?

Day 4: Needs to throw out her reads again, shows no suspicion towards MoI.

Yeah well I had MOI/Agar/KK in a scum team which I mentioned N3 to the BS crew.

Day 5: "Quickhammers" Fate revive. I think she thought it couldn't be changed once hammered, so she slipped into reviving a VT instead of a PR.

I explain why. What part of I see myself being quick hammered by scum before we can do a rez does not make sense to you?

I don't know what to think of Llama's not clearing Seacore, it is concerning and I do want an answer. However, I'm much more concerned with what I see here.

[farside22]

Link for Apok:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=13630

This is where I was scum and doing the weak attacks that I saw from MOI. I base things I see on games I have played and observations throughout MS.

Wait: Llama what night were you blocked? You lied about which "investigation"? Are you saying you were blocked Night 2, 3 or 4?


And llama continues to ignore the question I asked about why he refused to investigate Seacore. Oh wait it's the block. Let me verify which night he was supposedly blocked first before I break his lie into smitherings.

[farside22]

Oh wait I missed it. Hold on a second.

We had a confirmed tracker/watcher out there, I know my role, and I believed MoI because it was like all of our roles, excpet weaker because it required one of us getting lynched first to actually be of use. What type of role doesnt make sense in this scenario? Simple answer is anything that is not an investigator, such as a doctor, or in this case a commuter. From there I was stuck with a dilemma, either I let someone I think is town get lynched, or I lynch the person I think is lying about their claim. What better way then to continue to sell my claim AND get the person im pretty sure is BP scum killed then to just run them into the ground?

Why does a computer not make sense? Why would a doctor not make sense with 2 kills? With a Rez going on in the game how does a 1-shot BS make sense?

[farside22]

LL: As much as Vezo is not the best player I don't see a reason that bringing a tracker back in the game doesn't make sense.

[farside22]

Why Llama is scum and connections I see to another scum.

Llama stated day 2:

Spoiler:

Apoc showed some strength in stepping behind the Ghost wagon early as it got pushed, which I saw as town. After that he moved to AGar which I liked the wagon of at the time, now not so much, but I still think starting his own wagon is a town tell. I like his analysis, and his ideas really are more original then not, and you can see them come around which I just see as something that tends to be hard to fake, especially from new players.

A post later:

I am more willing to vote Apoc today given what has been recetly pointed out, SGR bugs me a little, although he was actually pushing on Ythill for a bit before he completely dropped him. Still doing some reading between the two, trying to figure out if the SGR thing was a wierd distance/bus thing or not. Seas last post pings a bit too.

Basically this is not town in any way shape for form. He goes form Apok town to a quick ohhh i see a wagon I could get onto.

Then near the end of the day:

seacore keeps talking about things that aren't scumhunting. the setup. other games. lots and lots and lots of text about stuff that isn't scumhunting.

Apoc lynch or Sea lynch better?

I can really go for either at this point, but Apoc is looking better to me at this point

Vote Apoc

That should be L-1.

He never even has a reason for his Apoc vote except to follow others, when he stated not too long ago this day that he found Apok town.



The night before that Llama was supposedly stated he investigated

Now, im going back and forth between SGR, Sea and Apoc for votes right now. SGR I would love to vote if it wasnt for the early posts with him and Ythill, which do not read like two scum sniping back and forth from SGR standpoint, who would have had to just fly off the handle at something a more useful partner did. I just see it more as a town-scum scenario despite the later options open stance that SGR took.

He has a bit of suspicion according to this post on SGR I note this because he says today he fake claimed a result on SGR. Why fake claim on someone you have some suspicion about?

Day 3:

Please note that Llama before this post never mentions MOI or reason's why he is voting MOI.

Spoiler:

I dont want an AGar sacrafice.

elect GG
elect Llama
elect LMP

Sacrafice Sea
Vote MoI
Revive Apoc

I like the sea sac/lynch far more then the SGR one at this point.

We are not lynching or sacraficing AGar when I have a mod message saying that he is not scum. Its not happening. Period.

I also dont really see logic behind the attack on Saint at this point either. That slot reads a very solid null.

Will see if I cant get a bit of a Sea case up over the next couple days. I still say the MoI/Sea combo is the way to go about it today.

Still no case or reasoning why MOI

unvote
vote seacore

I just realized something, MoI should have a very proveable role, and I dont think it can possibly be a scum role unless Saint flips town vig. If Saint is a SK, and MoI is telling the truth, we have a townie that gained the ability of a SK (so we have a vig). If there are not two kills in one night, then MoI is lying about his ability, if there are two kills, MoI is not lying. I also really doubt as im rambling that MoIs role can be scum because it would give scum two kills in one night, which seems little swingy. If Saint is a SK, its massively swingy since it punishes the town for lynching SK before a memebr of scum, so I dont see it as a scum role. If Saint is scum, again MoI cant be scum with him since the ability would be proven a lie almost instantly, if Saint flips non-killer, we just auto-sac MoI tomorrow. If Saint flips mafia or SK, it makes MoI town. If Saint flips vig, then we are back at square one, but with (presumeably) a Ythill and Fate kill, im guessing anti-town.

We wait for Saint regardless to claim, but I think this claim will work itself out overnight, or if anyone else visted Fate they can just insta-bust it. In the meantime, we can lynch Sea-scum.

Oh look lets clear MOI and say how town that role could be.

Spoiler:

Im not saying quick lynch, but I still have a lingering town read from OGML day one, and his ask to be sacrafied added to that a bit. He has given back a few points as of late, but he isnt one of my prefered lynches. Will take more then "he lurks" to make me flip on that one.

I don't have a lingering feeling any more on OGML. Fate had a point but since OGML didn't follow threw it doesn't = town. Also the sacrafice is null. Scum could say it to look town, town says it when for reason's that I don't want to get into as it's more info for scum.

What points of late has he made?

I still consider the asking to be sacraficed a slight town tell. As of late he has done nothing though, and I really disagree with most of his reads on people. Either way, not enough to push the lynch of him at this point. Day three is not the right place and time for a lurker wagon. It would be nice to know his flip, but not nice enough to put it over Sea.

Llama hemming and hawing of OGML. I believe this to be scum team by the way. He says OGML is town but null. He aslo stated he had a town read on OGML but when push came to shove could not respond to a reason and thus you have the statement above.

I cant get behind a MoI lynch at this point.

We essentially have a claim-counterclaim situation, where one of them is a whole lot more realistic. What I dont like is how many people are voting each of them, when the Saint-scum side is througougly busted at this point.

What I am seeing is a large group of people going to getting the scum lynch and the PR lynch all at once.

The sacrafice of Saint with the lynch of another is the best way to go about this, since it leaves most likely MoI-town alive, ends up with Sain-scum dead, and we get another shot at scum, which means we can do better then 1/2, which is the best we can realistically do with the Saint-MoI combo here.

In regards to the bold where was this thought process with Seacore when he claimed commuter?

Scum-SK I can see happening, but I just dont feel too much.

Doesn't explain why he doesn't "feel" it.

There aint any. People are just trying to get the lynch of scum and a PR at once here and there either are enough town sheeping or just being dense to start getting it through. MoI is NOT SCUM. His actions make zero sense coming from scum, yet the make perfect sense coming from town. You dont lynch the claim/counterclaim pair, you lynch the one that is scum, which is Saint.

Wasn't Llama voting for MOI this day.....yup I quoted it above. So what happened to that suspicion from Llama, you know the one he never made a case on or mentioned when he voted MOI in the first place?

I know its hard to crumb a power early, but a few awkwardly worded phrases about how you "will wait to look at someone until that night" can work wonders. Even if you are "not good" at scumhunting, you really did nothing in the early game that would draw a kill, not even a try really. You just sheeped people more then anything else, which does nothing to draw a kill, and actually does the exact opposite.

Where was this question to MOI about his role? Why not ask him about any crumbs?

unvote

Not sure if I want KK over OGML right now, but I see what farside is getting at and need to reevaluate a little. Still dislike the MoI lynch though, but as Sea, it should easily be proveable.

Why would you unvote and say this if you were "RB" during one of your investigations?

Vote Sea

Change of plans farside. I have been mulling this over, there are two scenarios here. Scenario A, very good. Scenario B, either bad or catasrophic. Problem is it can be hard to tell the two apart without someone getting lynched or claiming (although that opens a new can of worms). I will explain all backstage (yes lol backstage again) but it needs to stay private through today. Tonight I will claim BS right out the gate, and someone will be able to claim in public tomorrow.

And here is scum with an way to lynch a PR without trying. Congrats Llama on pushing to lynch a town PR that scum would like to see gone more.

I see the KK stuff, I do. I just am not overly confident on it due to how much getting an actual town read on ani has me confused on him. I think at this point I would vote KK over OGML simply due to my town read on OGML, I fail to see how continually asking to be killed is a scumtell (yes WIFOM I know) but when my top read is aggressively trying to oblige that deathwish, im not down for that one.

Sea >> KK >> OGML

Please come back now, the plan has a fatal flaw in it depending on a few things. This isnt a "oh it might give us a false result" its more like "this can cause a couple of mislynches" thing. If you think Sea is scum, follow me on this one. Its not like I can get away without backing it up in the immediate future.

Still not explaining the OGML town read and keeps pushing him back to the pack.

I dont agree with the way he is playing, or too many of his reads, but I do have a town read on him because I cant for the life of me see anyone who is going to take a OGML-scum lynch to the bank. Also the fact that he was trying to make himself dead when there was a SK alive. That makes giving town points to your partners even more dangerous, since putting yourself too far up there can actually make you a target.

I don't understand this. Please explain.

Also you thought my theory was scummy about MOI but LL followed it up and explained it during day 3 why do you ignore that?


The Night that LLama supposedly investigated LMP he never said anything pro or con in any way shape or form. So why investigate someone you don't have anythign to say to or about?

Leave for a couple days and people just go apeshit...

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

Now, not that it matters much at this point, but I will throw out all results of mine since we are getting to the point where it can probably clear out quite a few players. BS players know how to take this so I wont claim 100%, but this is what I have so far apart from the N1 innocent.

N2 - SGR (now ooba) is not mafia
N3 - LMP is not mafia

Vote KK

Why would someone town clear a person they had a slight suspicion on day 2?

We arent killing MoI, chances are he still is town here, same situation applies for GG. Although he isnt at the same level as the other two, OGML is not getting lynched either. We also arent sacraficing today, that happens tomorrow.

More on the rest of this post when I have time but ..

FUCK NO

.

Simply put you don't get to take two obv-scum in Gaggle in OGML off the table. No dice.

And we aren't lynching KK today. Sorry, I have a bigger Town read on him than you.

Wow, im hurt.

I am taking GG off the table. I am also taking OGML and you off the table, and then im taking ooba and LMP off the table. This aint a buffet, there is a nice resturant with a menu and you can select only one item.

Aaaaahhhh how cute. Look at the scum MOI trying to talk with his scum partner in game. Llama even states a bit of suspicion in his post but doesn't follow threw with it.



More questions to Llama: If you believed MOI was town at the endo of the day 3 why did you not elect him to go BS? Same question about day 4, why not elect him to go backstage then?



Also look at Llama scum quote here:

I just do not want a lynch of ooba, LMP, MoI or GG today. We arent lynching any of them, we arent going to sacrafice anyone. This really quick snap GG wagon just makes me uncomfortable.

And 2 post later:

LLama's COP is getting narrower. Claim your results. I'm really wanting to lynch you by now. OGML still town, just in case you've not been reading the game.

No result last night, as in I didnt get anything. No clue what that means, maybe amnesic got RBed or scum is toying with me.

Sacrafic MoI
Revive Vezok
Elect Apok
Elect LMP
Elect OGML

Amnesic should claim now.

What happened to not lynching MOI and finding him town to suddenly (without a reason anywhere) sacrificing him?

Night one I did get a no gun on AGar, I picked him due to really having no good idea on where he was, but seeing that he would be useful as town, and could start a chain reaction of lynches as scum. Night two is where I decided to lie a little, I tried to target SGR just to solidify a town read, but I actually got roleblocked. Thats why I never really claimed a result the next day, just sort of stalled around saying I wanted to go backstage to explain everything. While being intentionally ambiguous during the day is when I had that idea of trying to gambit, why not make a move to test if the people backstage were actually scum or not?

Oh it was night 2. Good i get to blow Llama's lie wide open now.

Lmp and GG where backstage with me Night 1 when ythill commented that he believed Llama was a PR that day do to the weak claim he had on day 1, which all of us BS talked about.

Also on Night 3 while BS that Llama is neglecting is he claimed he hinted day 1 to draw a night kill to protect the "amnesic cop". It was also for those who lack memory skills or the desire to go back and read that I voted for llama day 2.
Ythill had made his statement Night 1 and seeing Llama alive did not make sense to me. Why would scum keep alive someone they believe is a PR? Now Llama is claiming he was RB night 2 because of his little WIFOM show. Why would scum not RB him night 1 if they believe he was a PR, but RB on night 2 do to a claim?

Now, last night I actually got blocked again. Im guessing MoI is exactly what he claims and watched me looking for the non existant amnesic, and then realized that I was just screwing with them and really was an info role.

how does this even compute if MOI used his 1-shot watch against Fate?

Also scum killed VIs... your point being? My best guess is that they could kill a town leader PR and dont want to deal with that resurection, like if I got killed by Saint instead of Ythill, thats a very dangerous role coming back since it has info AND it is confirmed town AND a scumhunting threat.

And this was the theory I had and stated I believe Night 2 to those BS. See this is why I asked why he that a VT claim would save him. It doesn't because scum were being smart I believe and not killing who they believed were PR's because of the rez ability for the town.

[farside22]

Here is the TL'TR version for the lazy people:

Llama never made a case on MOI but voted for him. He was inconsistant in his reasoning when it came to voting for Apok. He calls MOI town during the whole lynch of Seacore but wants to sacrifice him the next day without a reason.

Basically even short for those like Apok. He was weak bussing his partner MOI, never gave reason then saw an opportunity to clear his scum buddy and lynch a PR in the process.

[farside22]

GG: I think OGML is scum too and I see much involved with Llama on this.

Also

Also, general question: I read the book quickly when I signed up for the game, so I don't remember it perfectly, but was Jesse James ever mentioned? I can't believe I glossed over that bit before, but that's the first name claim that I don't recall and that bothers me.

I can't tell you how much I searched the internet for this myself. I can't find our book, I will have to ask the hubby where he put it last (knowing him he gave it to someone to read). I believe like Apok that he was reference, but I can't recall much about what or anything.

You know the mod did mention that characters and their abilities were not connected. MOI had a claim that somehow fit his character but does Nancy as tracker make sense to anyone? What about Zorya Polunochnaya as watcher? I barely remembered this character myself.

I'm going to go through Llama post points for a moment but one I noted as I skimmed really quickly is how he answered a question with a question, while not answering the question at all.
IE: he has not answer so decided to throw the question back with no response.

[farside22]

Well what do you know Wiki does have Zorya Polunochnaya as a watcher. Mr. Nancy still doesn't fit and neither does his true God name.