Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

What's up everyone?

[Zachrulez]

Yo

Vote:Aldusskel

[Zachrulez]

uhh no.

Unvote:

5 votes is more than enough for the reason I voted for him. The reason however is not lynch worthy this early in the game.

[Zachrulez]

Did you think I was serious? Did you think a hammer would actually happen?

Did you think a hammer would actually happen when you put him at lynch -1? It's a possibility whether you think it will happen or not.

[Zachrulez]

vote: Aldusskel

L-1!

No claim. Somebody hammer.

Woo real vote time!

Unvote
Vote: Socrates

Yay! Reasons?

FoS: Socrates

He's obviously looking for a reaction. You should know better, I think the pressure caught up to you.

Yet you voted for me. I'm presuming you didn't like my unvote because you didn't actually explain the vote. (There was a reason for my vote as I've obviously alluded to, I just haven't explained it yet.)

[Zachrulez]

Did you think I was serious? Did you think a hammer would actually happen?

Did you think a hammer would actually happen when you put him at lynch -1? It's a possibility whether you think it will happen or not.

+1 Scum points.

Please, I invite you to dig yourself into a deeper hole. Arguing with a buddy won't help out.

Whatever...

[Zachrulez]

You were counting on an unvote when you made that vote?

Risky way to get reactions... but you seem genuinely interested in getting reads on people. Leaning town.

Vote: DemonHybrid

Too confident/certain in early reads. Getting a bad vibe from it.

Have you played other games on MS Demon?

[Zachrulez]

uhh no.

Unvote:

5 votes is more than enough for the reason I voted for him. The reason however is not lynch worthy this early in the game.

You had reasons? Reasons that were/are genuinely worth 5 votes...? I think I'd quite like to here this.

I said 5 votes was

more

than enough didn't I?

I'll be more inclined to explain my reasoning when Alduskkel actually posts some more.

[Zachrulez]

I don't really care whether or not you want to see my reasoning now, or whether or not you think there's any good reason for me to wait for him to post.

It's possible that I'm intending to accomplish something with my vote that you can't see atm.

When I accomplish what I intend to accomplish, or it becomes impossible to accomplish what I intended to accomplish, I'll explain my vote. Likewise to your demand and claim that you see no reason why I need to wait, I see no reason why I can't.

[Zachrulez]

Besides if you read Alduskkel's contribution to the game to this point, you can probably make a good guess to why I'm voting him without me actually explaining.

[Zachrulez]

1. Alduskkel's contribution to the game so far is non-existent - hence my interest in what reason you think you've drawn from his play.
2. I can guarantee that whatever you're trying to accomplish with your Alduskkel vote is going to fail since you're voting for Demonhybrid.
3. Forgetting where your vote is, is scummy.

Unvote, Vote Zachrulez

I know full well where my vote is. You're inquiring about my FIRST vote... misrepping my intentions (Claiming I was fine with him at 5 votes for a non stated reason when I actually said it was more than enough.)

And then we go from me answering your inquiries about that now inactive vote to you claiming I forgot where my vote was? What?

[Zachrulez]

Zach.

Dude, it's an RVS bandwagon. Unless you have more info, all we can assume is that it's an RVS vote.

If you DO have more info, you know what withholding that is...

RVS bandwagon may have been other people's reasoning for voting, but not mine.

It apparently hasn't occurred to anyone that I wanted a reaction from my target before my reasoning was explained. (This has been undercut by q21's attack on me, the initial demand for an explanation I find to be a scummy threat, and also by the fact that I was left the wagon when it hit lynch -1 because I didn't want to actually risk a lynch over the reasoning I had for voting him.)

The fact that I still thought getting a reaction to that original vote was relevant to getting a read, even though I've made use of my vote elsewhere doesn't mean I've forgotten where my vote was.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, Alduskkel's posts thus far have seemed to do nothing but promote RVS. The fact that he made an RVS vote, and then continued to crack jokes in a short time span in response to other posts is something that I find slightly scummy. (But not scummy enough to lynch off an RVS wagon.)

My read on him at the moment would be neutral to slightly scummy.

[Zachrulez]

2. I can guarantee that whatever you're trying to accomplish with your Alduskkel vote is going to fail since you're voting for Demonhybrid.

Unvote, Vote Zachrulez

The vote doesn't have to be active for it to be reacted to... btw.

[Zachrulez]

1. Alduskkel's contribution to the game so far is non-existent - hence my interest in what reason you think you've drawn from his play.
2. I can guarantee that whatever you're trying to accomplish with your Alduskkel vote is going to fail since you're voting for Demonhybrid.
3. Forgetting where your vote is, is scummy.

Unvote, Vote Zachrulez

I know full well where my vote is. You're inquiring about my FIRST vote... misrepping my intentions (Claiming I was fine with him at 5 votes for a non stated reason when I actually said it was more than enough.)

The turn of phrase 'more than enough' would indicate that that level (of anything, in this case vote) is one that you would be happy with. Would you have unvoted Alduskkel if Socrates had not voted for him? I postulate not, given the speed of your unvote I'd say it was a specific reaction to Socrates vote. I'd don't think I've misrepresented anything at all.

I found the wagon rather uncomfortable when it reached 5 votes. I didn't find it important to unvote because I wasn't expecting a lynch -1 vote to come. When it did, I found it important to get off the wagon because I didn't actually want a lynch for the reason I was voting, or before any reactions to the vote from others or my target.

And then we go from me answering your inquiries about that now inactive vote to you claiming I forgot where my vote was? What?

You can hardly complain when you make post like this:

Besides if you read Alduskkel's contribution to the game to this point, you can probably make a good guess to why I'm voting him without me actually explaining.

You're writing in the present tense here, this indicates that what you stated here is what you currently believe as of the time of writing.

So I used the wrong tense when referencing present tense reasoning that still applies. Characterizing that as "forgetting where my vote was" is a reach, and a long one.

It apparently hasn't occurred to anyone that I wanted a reaction from my target before my reasoning was explained. (This has been undercut by q21's attack on me, the initial demand for an explanation I find to be a scummy threat, and also by the fact that I was left the wagon when it hit lynch -1 because I didn't want to actually risk a lynch over the reasoning I had for voting him.)

Oh, it occurred to me, I simply decided that it would be more interesting to push you. The fact that you were seemingly hoping for a reaction from someone whom you were no longer willing to commit to a vote for (for whatever reason) was more interesting to me that any reaction I imagine you'd have gotten. And since when is demanding explanations scummy?

I find it scummy, particularly in this instance, because in the early game, it's not entirely uncommon for someone to vote without an explanation but clearly have one. I don't find it uncommon for scum to want to know why they are being voted. (Or for scumbuddies to want to know why someone is voting their buddy, or for them to just try to make an issue out of a vote on someone they know is town.)

The rest of the explanation here is fair enough however.

[Zachrulez]

First, why did you want to keep this reasoning secret in post 61?

I wanted to see a reaction to why he thought I voted for him.

Second, what changed that made you reveal it?

The focus turned onto my not explaining the vote and pretty much ensured that Aldusskel would react to that rather than to the vote itself.

Third, what exactly made Ald's play "slightly scummy?

A vote over an avatar and two posts following in quick succession serving to promote RVS rather than game discussion. None of this serves to do much of anything to promote game discussion. RVS is a pretty safe place for scum, so the longer discussion remains RVS related, the longer they can be comfortable not having to try to contribute and blend in with the town. (Basically I saw his posts as a possible attempt to extend RVS.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach 32 - Your reasons for voting? You didn't give any IIRC. Explanation would be nice.

Read the thread.

Zach, this is response to your post 38. Sure it's a possibility... but odds are that even scum wouldn't be stupid enough to quickhammer, don't you think?

Assuming optimal play is a dangerous assumption to make. Quickhammers can and have happened, and they can be done by either alignment. The main concern is the threat of having a day end that quickly more than anything else as little information is gained. (Even if the flip is scum.)

Zach, your post 47 seems a bit like OMGUS to me. We shouldn't try and pressure our vibes? Huh?

Did I say that? Pressuring your vibes doesn't make your play immune to scrutiny.

Zach 62 - I'm very confused here, and I hope you can explain this for me. You're withholding your explanation because Ald isn't here? From what I can tell, you just hopped on the BW and then said "well he's not here, so I don't have to explain myself yet". I hadn't even made a post since then, so I don't see why you were picking on HIM. Not to mention, the game was barely 12 hours old. Maybe he had school or something and couldn't get on then... did you think of that?

The entire point of the vote, (Which was the 2nd one cast on him btw.) was to get a reaction from him. In followup posts I pointed out that the whole point of that vote was to get a reaction from him. Where did I accuse him of lurking? Where did I say lurking had anything to do with my vote? That's misrep at it's finest there.

I sort of skimmed the rest of the posts so far... I'm tired and will read them a bit more indepth later. I mainly wanted this to be a "Hey I'm here and playing" post so you don't all forget about me xD

Really? You apparently missed or "missed" the post where I explained the alduskkel vote then.

FoS: Scott

I still think your vote was opportunistic.

How was it opportunistic?

[Zachrulez]

A vote over an avatar and two posts following in quick succession serving to promote RVS rather than game discussion. None of this serves to do much of anything to promote game discussion. RVS is a pretty safe place for scum, so the longer discussion remains RVS related, the longer they can be comfortable not having to try to contribute and blend in with the town. (Basically I saw his posts as a possible attempt to extend RVS.)

1) I think you are dodging the issue by saying that you saw his actions as a "possible" attempt to extent RVS. Every action in this game is "possibly" scummy if you use your imagination enough.
2) His actions are equall consistent with somebody just joking around in RVS, as people are prone to do. Why then are his actions "slightly scummy"?

Point 1, agreed. His reaction was more important to me in trying to get a read than the action itself. (Not sure how I'm dodging however.)

As to point 2. It is consistent. But multiple rvs posts is something that I don't commonly see (in that timeframe.) so it raises my eyebrow a bit. I tend to pursue things based on feel (As to the opinion I have of Aduskkel's early play.) moreso than things that will necessarily hold up logically. I care about reactions, reading people, and jump starting discussion.

It was an action I felt was worthy of a little bit of pressure, but not one that gives me a high degree of certainty without reactions from the player and followup. (Something that's moot now because of the way things developed, so ultimately I'm going to have to find a different way to get a read on him.) It was not an action that I would ever want to push a serious lynching wagon on.

[Zachrulez]

Quick post while I'm off for the weekend for the most part.

Point 1, agreed. His reaction was more important to me in trying to get a read than the action itself. (Not sure how I'm dodging however.)

What did you find meaningful in his reaction?

I'm getting a town vibe on Ald after seeing more posts from him. He's scumhunting and prodding, and I've liked what I've seen from him.

As to point 2. It is consistent. But multiple rvs posts is something that I don't commonly see (in that timeframe.) so it raises my eyebrow a bit. I tend to pursue things based on feel (As to the opinion I have of Aduskkel's early play.) moreso than things that will necessarily hold up logically. I care about reactions, reading people, and jump starting discussion.

It isn't something that everybody does, by any means, so I agree that you don't "commonly see it". However, that has no bearing on my initial point - which was that his actions are equally consistent with somebody (town or scum) simply joking around in RVS.

How things "feel" (which is just another word for "gut") is inherently unreliable. It's subject to all sorts of emotional factors - eg avatars, tone, your mood, confirmation bias, etc.

I disagree, it all comes down to how you use it, and combining it with logic, but playstyle clash, ect. We're probably not going to change each other's approaches to the game when it comes down to it.

It was an action I felt was worthy of a little bit of pressure, but not one that gives me a high degree of certainty without reactions from the player and followup. (Something that's moot now because of the way things developed, so ultimately I'm going to have to find a different way to get a read on him.) It was not an action that I would ever want to push a serious lynching wagon on.

And I understand that. I know this is just an early-game attack, so I am not being as narky as I would normally be, but I think my criticisms of your logic are still valid (if only as conversation-starters/springboards).

Fair enough.

Now to horrordude.

Zach, your post 47 seems a bit like OMGUS to me. We shouldn't try and pressure our vibes? Huh?

Did I say that? Pressuring your vibes doesn't make your play immune to scrutiny.

Too confident/certain in early reads. Getting a bad vibe from it.

You seem to say here that we shouldn't be too confident in our reads. BTW, how confident is TOO confident to you? This still seems like an excuse to OMGUS to me, ftr.

I find too much confidence in early reads to ring ingenuwine, which is scummy. (This also comes down to gut feel.) Too confident is basically when you talk to someone as if they're confirmed scum. (The behavior's certainly anti-town as it doesn't take all possible motives for actions into account.)

Zach 62 - I'm very confused here, and I hope you can explain this for me. You're withholding your explanation because Ald isn't here? From what I can tell, you just hopped on the BW and then said "well he's not here, so I don't have to explain myself yet". I hadn't even made a post since then, so I don't see why you were picking on HIM. Not to mention, the game was barely 12 hours old. Maybe he had school or something and couldn't get on then... did you think of that?

The entire point of the vote, (Which was the 2nd one cast on him btw.) was to get a reaction from him. In followup posts I pointed out that the whole point of that vote was to get a reaction from him. Where did I accuse him of lurking? Where did I say lurking had anything to do with my vote? That's misrep at it's finest there.

Actually no it's not. In fact, you misrepped me by saying that I said that you said Ald was lurking. I never said that. You said that he had made very little contribution to the game, and I pointed out that the game was only 12 hours old and he hadn't posted since page 1... what contribution could there really be?

And you really need to make up your mind. First you say that he had made little contribution to the game, and that's why you were voting for him and not explaining it. (Post 62) Then you say that you wanted to get a reaction from him. (Post 66) Then you go and say he was only promoting RVS. (Post 67) And then you say it was to get a reaction again (Post 88) and in the same post say it was promoting RVS. Then you go back to saying it was for a reaction (Post 92)

I have a few things wrong with this:
1. You were the second vote on the wagon (L-5)... how are you supposed to get a reaction that way?
2. You said that he seemed to be trying to prolong the RVS. First of all, you were on page 1 and the game had only been going on for 4 posts when he made his first vote. Absolutely NOTHING was happening in the space between the 6 posts he made on page 1, so how could you say he was trying to prolong RVS? I call bullshit here.
3. You have now flip flopped on your reason

6 times

. Sorry, but that's about 4 more times than is reasonable.

Lack of contribution and only promoting RVS go together. I also wanted to get a reaction to the vote without the reasoning explained to see why he thought I was voting for him at that point. Having the reason to vote him and wanting the reaction go together. It's not flip flopping. You're strawmanning.

Also I didn't misrep you. Go back to the quote.

Zach 62 - I'm very confused here, and I hope you can explain this for me. You're withholding your explanation because Ald isn't here? From what I can tell, you just hopped on the BW and then said "well he's not here, so I don't have to explain myself yet". I hadn't even made a post since then, so I don't see why you were picking on HIM.

Not to mention, the game was barely 12 hours old. Maybe he had school or something and couldn't get on then... did you think of that?

How can you read the bold and tell me that I can't interpret that as you saying I'm accusing him of lurking? You attack me for "failing to consider" that maybe had a reason for not being on then, which heavily implies that I accused him of lurking at some point. You may not have SAID it in those words. But it's a matter of trying to plant an idea into the minds of people reading the thread... and that's what I'm seeing here.

Even if that's a non point, characterizing me as flip flopping when my reasoning for my vote is clearly explained to be for a clear reason and a clear purpose is just ridiculous.

Unvote: Vote: Horrordude

[Zachrulez]

Back from my V/LA. I don't feel like catching up right now.

(I wonder who noticed that I wasn't around for the last 6 or so pages.)

Somewhat. I don't remember you saying you were going V/LA though.

It was in his sig.

Now prodding Untrod Tripod, Scott Brosius, and Zachrulez.

I made it pretty clear that I wasn't going to be around much over the labor day weekend. 48 hours is a pretty strict activity requirement as it is... but not taking account for weekends and holidays...

I'll get to this tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

I disagree, it all comes down to how you use it, and combining it with logic, but playstyle clash, ect. We're probably not going to change each other's approaches to the game when it comes down to it.

I know...

But since analysing reasons is how I differentiate town from scum, could you try to justify yourself where possrather than playing to habit?

Of course.

Catching up now.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, answer these questions for me:
1. What would you have done if he had just ignored your vote?
2. What would you have done if he had mentioned it, but did nothing?
3. What would you have done if he RVS OMGUS'd you?

Do we really want to have a conversation about my hypothetical reaction to things that didn't actually happen? I could try to guess what I would have done, but it might not even end up being what I really would have done when I'm actually faced with the situation.

4. What reaction DID you get from him?

I'm sure this was covered in thread already.

If there's any decent response there, I'll be surprised.

See you basically already stated you're not going to be satisfied with my responses. Perhaps you can see a problem with your line of thinking here.

And on to the other part of his case... Ald was trying to prolong RVS. Look at his first 3 posts on page 1.

Those are clearly Scum Kittens.

Vote: Reckamonic.

I think Reckamonic is scum buddies with
Spoiler: dun dun dun (dramatic music)
themselves!!

Scumbuddying, that's what they're doing.

Then he didn't post again until page 4. (You voted him at the top of page 2). What I see there is him joking around on page 1... how the hell is that the same as trying to prolong RVS?

When I brought up all of these in my post against him, he strawmanned me by completely ignoring them and only focusing on the flip-flop portion of the argument. All of those things scream scum to me, and so we should lynch Zach.

kthxbai

YOU put focus on the flip-flop argument. You can't turn around and call me scummy for defending myself against bad logic now.

[Zachrulez]

Just remembered that I'd meant to check on this.

Esponage hasn't posted here in 2 days but is active in other games.

[Zachrulez]

Well hasn't posted since monday night to be fair. (So closer to 36 hours than 2 days.) I saw the difference in the day of the week rather than the timestamp.

Anyway the main point is that he's choosing to avoid this game while being active on the site.

[Zachrulez]

Horrordude ~

His attack in Zach’s case makes no sense to me, especially the choice of words. Not all of us are native speakers you know? Anyway, on to the important stuff. His vote on Espeonage makes no sense either. You have a huge case on Zach (which it seems you’re pretty confident of), yet you vote for Espeonage. Is it just beacuse he has more votes = more chance of getting lynched?

Yeah, this looks like a pretty safe place to park a vote after the scrutiny he received for his vote on me.

Reckamonic ~

Oh you. Excuses, no reasoning for votes…somebody was trying to think of a witty comeback for the answering part in the answering questions post. So somebody who completely agrees with you is town, Volkan is town, because. hahaZachobvtown…I could go on, you know.[/quote]

265 goes a long way to explaining his reasoning, did you read it?

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: Forgot a quote tag.

Horrordude ~

His attack in Zach’s case makes no sense to me, especially the choice of words. Not all of us are native speakers you know? Anyway, on to the important stuff. His vote on Espeonage makes no sense either. You have a huge case on Zach (which it seems you’re pretty confident of), yet you vote for Espeonage. Is it just beacuse he has more votes = more chance of getting lynched?

Yeah, this looks like a pretty safe place to park a vote after the scrutiny he received for his vote on me.

Reckamonic ~

Oh you. Excuses, no reasoning for votes…somebody was trying to think of a witty comeback for the answering part in the answering questions post. So somebody who completely agrees with you is town, Volkan is town, because. hahaZachobvtown…I could go on, you know.

265 goes a long way to explaining his reasoning, did you read it?

[Zachrulez]

265 goes a long way to explaining his reasoning, did you read it?

Yup. So you're obvTown because...

You were counting on an unvote when you made that vote?

Risky way to get reactions... but you seem genuinely interested in getting reads on people. Leaning town.

Vote: DemonHybrid

Too confident/certain in early reads. Getting a bad vibe from it.

Have you played other games on MS Demon?

No I really can't see why. Was it because you defended Socrates? Because you made a town read? Voted DemonHybrid? Got bad vibes? There's only so much I can get from that!

(No, "if you don't see it I won't explain it" is not a valid reason.)

Well I don't know why he thinks I'm town.

I do know that his views on the game are very similar to mine, some of which could be explained by possible buddying perhaps, but I'm not getting that vibe from his/their play. (And I've seen them both as scum and have a pretty good idea what to look for.)

[Zachrulez]

Mae gives an incomplete player list evaluation in 282, which always makes me go ermmm. I feel like that kind of thing is significant, but I am never able to quantify what that significance is.

In your catch up post, you do as well. You state no opinion on Horrordude, q21, or Untrue Tripod.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: Untrod Tripod

For whatever reason it enters my brain as Untrue Tripod when I read it...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, this looks like a pretty safe place to park a vote after the scrutiny he received for his vote on me.

Umm... I didn't care about the scrutiny I received for my vote on you. In fact, I completely dropped the flip-flop portion of my case and asked you to just respond to the other two points, which by the way,

you have yet to do!

I'm pretty sure I've addressed your points. Whether or not it's to your satisfaction may be another matter entirely. (Not that I care much cause I still think you're the best lynch, and I don't quite understand why you're not actually getting more votes.)

[Zachrulez]

Mae gives an incomplete player list evaluation in 282, which always makes me go ermmm. I feel like that kind of thing is significant, but I am never able to quantify what that significance is.

In your catch up post, you do as well. You state no opinion on Horrordude, q21, or Untrue Tripod.

I knew someone was going to say this as soon as I posted.

The difference, in my mind, is that I didn't intend my post as a comprehensive player analysis, just me typing whatever thoughts were in my head (it turned out to be about twice as long as I thought it was going to be), whereas Mae used the words "single player analysis".

Besides, I never claimed that I thought it was a scumtell, per-say. My feeling is more that if she IS scum, associative tells will be pretty strong in those types of posts.

Do you have an opinion on those three players?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, this looks like a pretty safe place to park a vote after the scrutiny he received for his vote on me.

Umm... I didn't care about the scrutiny I received for my vote on you. In fact, I completely dropped the flip-flop portion of my case and asked you to just respond to the other two points, which by the way,

you have yet to do!

I'm pretty sure I've addressed your points. Whether or not it's to your satisfaction may be another matter entirely. (Not that I care much cause I still think you're the best lynch, and I don't quite understand why you're not actually getting more votes.)

Uhh... no you didn't.

I have a few things wrong with this:
1. You were the second vote on the wagon (L-5)... how are you supposed to get a reaction that way?
2. You said that he seemed to be trying to prolong the RVS. First of all, you were on page 1 and the game had only been going on for 4 posts when he made his first vote. Absolutely NOTHING was happening in the space between the 6 posts he made on page 1, so how could you say he was trying to prolong RVS? I call bullshit here.

This was my case against you in my ISO 3, IIRC. I took out the flip-flop portion of it, because I can see the flawed logic there. However, I've been trying to get you to address these points

ALL GAME

and you have yet to. Please do so. And I'd also like to know why you OMGUS'd me and if it wasn't OMGUS why you voted me in the first place.

I figured there'd be a little piece out of your insane text walls that you'd go back to and say I didn't respond to.

Neither one really warrants a response... but to make you happy.

1. Most players will respond to a player's vote on them, regardless of where it is on the wagon. Does my vote have to put a specific level of pressure on a player vote wise to get them to react?

2. 3 joking RVS posts to me looks like an attempt to start RVS related conversation designed to keep the game in RVS longer. The accusation itself was pretty weak and mostly intended to start game-relevant discussion. (And really what's wrong with that, even if it results in pressure on me?)

[Zachrulez]

Just checked a previous game with Shotty...

His case is horrible, but I think he's town.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2426373

Read Shotty's contribution from that point. The contrast from his play there vs his play here is obvious.

[Zachrulez]

1. Think about it. What sort of reaction will you really get if you're the L-5 vote during RVS? I think almost everyone would just ignore it and pretend like it didn't happen.

It's not what vote you are. Votes that are serious or votes that might be serious are generally going to be responded to.

2. I would be fine with this reply except for you didn't even mention it until 10 posts after your unvote. There was plenty of game-relevant discussion already. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it except for the fact that it was mainly added as an afterthought, so how could it have STARTED game-relevant discussion? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't RVS usually a time to joke around and have some fun? How is it that just because Ald made 3 post on page 1, that's trying to prolong it?

People tend to see RVS that way, but if you're joking around and having fun in RVS, you're not moving the game forward. That's what I was trying to do. As for the prolonging RVS, I did see potential for it in that manner of posting yes.

[Zachrulez]

And at this point, I think you've used up your questions regarding this line of discussion. I find it unproductive to keep going back and forth on this RVS issue. If you have any other points against me that you want to bring up, then I'll respond to those as they come up.

[Zachrulez]

1. Think about it. What sort of reaction will you really get if you're the L-5 vote during RVS? I think almost everyone would just ignore it and pretend like it didn't happen.

It's not what vote you are. Votes that are serious or votes that might be serious are generally going to be responded to.

You just said "Yo, vote aldel". Nice try, but that's not a serious vote, and it won't be considered as such.

It was a serious vote. I didn't crack a joke or say anything to indicate the vote was random.

2. I would be fine with this reply except for you didn't even mention it until 10 posts after your unvote. There was plenty of game-relevant discussion already. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it except for the fact that it was mainly added as an afterthought, so how could it have STARTED game-relevant discussion? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't RVS usually a time to joke around and have some fun? How is it that just because Ald made 3 post on page 1, that's trying to prolong it?

People tend to see RVS that way, but if you're joking around and having fun in RVS, you're not moving the game forward. That's what I was trying to do. As for the prolonging RVS, I did see potential for it in that manner of posting yes.

When you're on Page 1 and you've only had a few people post, how can you really move the game along?

You just do it. What page you're on doesn't matter, there's no arbitrary point where RVS ends.

And at this point, I think you've used up your questions regarding this line of discussion. I find it unproductive to keep going back and forth on this RVS issue. If you have any other points against me that you want to bring up, then I'll respond to those as they come up.

Hell no. If you're going to call me scum for misrepping you, then it's not unproductive for me to prove why I'm not.

You can certainly attempt to clarify your intentions, (convincing me is another story) but you're basically asking me to explain things multiple times and it's not really getting us anywhere.

[Zachrulez]

Well according to the mod's ruleset, the person with the most votes at deadline will be lynched. (Which is currently demonhybrid I believe)

I'm willing to put my vote there on an approaching deadline, mostly because I think that getting a majority lynch is important. (and I find demonhybrid scummy enough to be an acceptable lynch.)

[Zachrulez]

1. Think about it. What sort of reaction will you really get if you're the L-5 vote during RVS? I think almost everyone would just ignore it and pretend like it didn't happen.

It's not what vote you are. Votes that are serious or votes that might be serious are generally going to be responded to.

You just said "Yo, vote aldel". Nice try, but that's not a serious vote, and it won't be considered as such.

It was a serious vote. I didn't crack a joke or say anything to indicate the vote was random.

You didn't give any indication that it was serious, so how was he supposed to take it as such? Because you didn't make a joke?

I didn't give any indication that it wasn't... (This would be where it would have been a good idea to ask if the vote was serious.)

2. I would be fine with this reply except for you didn't even mention it until 10 posts after your unvote. There was plenty of game-relevant discussion already. There wouldn't be anything wrong with it except for the fact that it was mainly added as an afterthought, so how could it have STARTED game-relevant discussion? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't RVS usually a time to joke around and have some fun? How is it that just because Ald made 3 post on page 1, that's trying to prolong it?

People tend to see RVS that way, but if you're joking around and having fun in RVS, you're not moving the game forward. That's what I was trying to do. As for the prolonging RVS, I did see potential for it in that manner of posting yes.

When you're on Page 1 and you've only had a few people post, how can you really move the game along?

You just do it. What page you're on doesn't matter, there's no arbitrary point where RVS ends.

Okay, so how are you SUPPOSED to "do it"?

Well I tend to just look for the first thing that looks even a little bit off to me. Voting for it tends to put a pretty quick end to RVS. (It's also good for seeing who reacts to it, and who wants to just continue on with RVS.)

[Zachrulez]

Shotty never makes sense.

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly are we screwed?

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly are we screwed?

He's a hard person to get reads in...so he's either mislynch fodder or scum and we might let him live because he's a self-titled VI. Which is obvious.

We're not that screwed, I guess. Either way, we'll see.

He's not impossible to get a read on.

For instance, as bad as his case was on me, he actually tried to explain his vote on me, which is more than he did in the game I linked. (Where he was scum.)

[Zachrulez]

Stop being so nice man, I thought we hated each other

I hope that's not the real reason you're voting for me...

Also if you hate me why do you replace into games I'm in?...

[Zachrulez]

Oh, so I can be townie until I suspect you... I get it now. And you can have a town read on Zach because of some early comments I suppose, but his late game play has been scummy as hell, so yeah that doesn't work with me.

Really?! Really?! Your entire attack on me has been based on my early play. This is just ridiculous. Lynch nao plz.

[Zachrulez]

By the mod's ruleset, that person with the most votes is lynched, so it doesn't matter whether horror is hammered or not, presently he will be lynched at deadline.

[Zachrulez]

I think the deadline is 10pm CST.

Looking through the mod iso, the original stated deadline was 11pm EST.

[Zachrulez]

Mind you the 10:00 stated deadline didn't specify whether it was AM or PM.

[Zachrulez]

Certainly none of that could hurt anything.

[Zachrulez]

Shotty. Who's scum? (No they don't all die with the gf.)

[Zachrulez]

Post 439 Shotty.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: *430

[Zachrulez]

zach i still think you

Ok, why?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I'm kinda going through the game again, and a few of Mae's posts bother me.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, catching up won’t work, since, well, it’s outdated. I’m just going to do single player analysis instead.

Alduskkel ~

I get town vibes in the beginning, when his reasoning is almost identical to mine regarding Socrates. However, the rest of the post is meaningless, which is kinda bad. Asks a lot of questions, which is good, but, at the same time, I

think

(keyword here being think) that he’s trying to keep his options a bit open. Nullread.

DemonHybrid ~

Huge walls of text with Socrates that can be written by scum or town…(yeah I know I’m not helping hold your horses) but it all cancels out. He’s trying to help, I believe. I agree with whoever said that the argument with Socratas is too genuine to be bussing.

Espeonage ~

No content. At all. Not skimming is <3. However, I’m waiting for the replacement.

Horrordude ~

His attack in Zach’s case makes no sense to me, especially the choice of words. Not all of us are native speakers you know? Anyway, on to the important stuff. His vote on Espeonage makes no sense either. You have a huge case on Zach (which it seems you’re pretty confident of), yet you vote for Espeonage. Is it just beacuse he has more votes = more chance of getting lynched?

q21 ~

Who? Oh, that guy. There’s honestly not much to say…he’s definately a step up from Espeonage, but he still lurks a bit. Voting for lurkers is the easiest way to look town, after all, but I still don't have much of a read. I have to throw the nullread card again, folks.

Reckamonic ~

Oh you. Excuses, no reasoning for votes…somebody was trying to think of a witty comeback for the answering part in the answering questions post. So somebody who completely agrees with you is town, Volkan is town, because. hahaZachobvtown…I could go on, you know.

Right now, that’s where my vote is going. Please make some sense.

Vote: Reckamonic

. I would vote for Espeonage, but trying to make somebody who isn't there talk is a bit impossible.

More later…I hate catching up.

Kinda having trouble seeing why she doesn't vote Horror with how critical she is of him. HATE HATE HATE the questioning of the Esp vote while willing to vote him herself in the scenario that he didn't replace out.

Also... the quote "Voting for lurkers is the easiest way to look town." coupled with her making clear that she had a desire to vote for the lurker... that's standing out to me.

I greatly disapprove of SB's lynch and I feel like some good people here are oppurtunistic. *coughUTcough*

Also, so far, I don't like drwhocares's case since it makes absolutely no sense and is a rehash of pretty much horror's case. Coming from that slot...I'm not so convinced of drwhocares's innocence anymore.

I'm not touching horror and Zach's fight with a ten-foot pole. Warn me if there's something interesting there.

Also this THREAD NEEDS MOAR RECKAMONIC.

I don't like his reck vote, I don't like his play at the beginning, I didn't like his vote on Socrates at the beginning of the game, and I don't like his "policy" vote on drshotty. I think he's a better candidate for the lynch than DH. I think DH is playing as overexuberent townie, not a mafioso trying to put himself at the center of the action.

Awfully convinient that you didn't point out these earlier. Care to explain why?

Avoids taking a position on me vs Horror. Not liking that at all in retrospect. Also can't see how she goes from that to this.

Now I have absolutely no excuse to vote for Reckamonic.

Unvote.

I'm going to be here tomorrow, hopefully. So yeah, I'm leaning towards Horror , but I'd honestly lynch anyone. I hate D1 No Lynches. Besides, his defense right now doesn't click.

At what point were you willing to lynch Horror? At the point you posted this Horrordude was in the lead for the lynch. (And you took no position on him prior to this.)

That tingles the spidey sense.

Vote: Maemuki

[Zachrulez]

I think Maemuki needs more pressure, replacement or not.

[Zachrulez]

Maemuki is posting elsewhere, and just replaced into another game today.

Come on guys.

[Zachrulez]

I'm honestly not finding Scott all that scummy. From what I know of his meta, he's always lurky.

[Zachrulez]

Why are you voting SB over Maemuki?

[Zachrulez]

^Question in response to 474

[Zachrulez]

Lynch all lurkers is successful some of the time.
Lynch all lurkers is a failure some of the time.

She's not inactive, she's choosing not to post in this thread, as stated earlier.

And she probably posted the same amount of content as Korts did.

So, are we going to make this happen before someone like Vi, RedCoyote or Mr. Flay comes in and completely wrecks town, or what? If she's scummy NOW, then why wait?

You're voting for SB anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Well, it's day 2. Deadline is Saturday, September 25, 10:00 pm CST.
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

At any rate, you guys can dispense with the quick lynch accusations on DemonHybrid. This day appears to only have a week allotted to it for a DL.

[Zachrulez]

Mod, would it be possible to have a deadline that's at least 2 weeks?

As things stand now, Maemuki's lurked through nearly half the day, and the slot with her or a replacement in it will likely lurk well beyond this day. This is unacceptable, especially as Maemuki is CHOOSING not to be active.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

In light of the above.

[Zachrulez]

Just saying that I played one game with scott, and I'm pretty sure i was town

This is far from the truth. You have played 2 games with me as scum, one game replacing in as VT and claimed doctor to save yourself (lol). You are playing like your usualy lurky erratic scum self.

I found the link to the town game yesterday. Do you have links to the scum games?

With proof of the existence of the other games, that would be a significant lie on Shotty's part.

[Zachrulez]

^ Yesterday as in the previous day phase...

[Zachrulez]

Just saying that I played one game with scott, and I'm pretty sure i was town

This is far from the truth. You have played 2 games with me as scum, one game replacing in as VT and claimed doctor to save yourself (lol). You are playing like your usualy lurky erratic scum self.

You don't have to answer this now. I have verified it myself as a Shotty lie.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14742
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14705

I should have known the 2nd game offhand as I also played in it as a hydra with sotty... but yeah, your claim is accurate and Shotty lied... and he would have a good scum motivation for lying and obscuring your meta claim there.

Vote: Drmyshottyizsik

[Zachrulez]

Scott, I forgot to ask. Are you guys confirmed masons? (I think the site meta is stressing the use of neighbors for unconfirmed masons anyway. But it's still worth asking.)

[Zachrulez]

Clarification: Do you have confirmation of Mae's innocence?

[Zachrulez]

It seems that Maemuki has picked up her prod, but hasn't responded. I'll be replacing her by tomorrow if she doesn't respond by then.

As for deadline, there has been a number of complaints about its length. I didn't realize that one week was too short, so if most everyone wants an extension, I'm willing to make a permanent one to the rules, so that each day will be 2 weeks long.

Sound good?

Yes please do this.

[Zachrulez]

Shotty, it's not WIFOM, and it's not being unfairly turned against you. You made a false meta argument to counter Scott's meta read of you in a way that made it look like he was pushing for your lynch without any scum meta on you.

[Zachrulez]

Maemuki and I are masons.

Unvote

Going to ISO Shotty

Uhhhh, you didn't have a vote active prior to this. (The vote count 2 posts above yours will confirm this.)

[Zachrulez]

The lack of activity in this game is disturbing.

Anyway, Shotty is clearly the play for today. Anyone who's unsure or thinking of it as a policy lynch should look at 494, as it shows a clearly scummy action on Shotty's part and that action has a clear scum motivation. This isn't a policy lynch or a lynch to eliminate a VI from the game, this is a lynch on a player who has acted legitimately scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Neither DH vote has any explanation to it.

Socrates seemed to be leaning more toward DH being town at the end of day 1, and his change in stance hasn't been explained. (He has also seemed to be very much less interested in the game since day 1 which has piqued my curiosity.)

Shotty's vote has no explanation and seems to contradict his stance of me being scum. (I'm the only player he's actually explicitly stated he thinks is scum yet is not voting for me.)

[Zachrulez]

Shotty's "Lie" about his meta with Scott is stupid. It is much more likely that he simply forgot about the other games he has played with Scott and if you think that shotty is stupid enough to lie about something that is GUARANTEED to be corrected, then you have to concede that he is also stupid enough to make such an innocent mistake.

He would have had to have forgotten about TWO games actually, and one of them finished fairly recently.

[Zachrulez]

^ Both actually. (I was actually in one, and I just checked when the other one ended.)

[Zachrulez]

Did those bad claims involve "forgetting" about games that you were scum in only weeks after their conclusion?

[Zachrulez]

As for busing, yeah I tend to think that it's a possibility that there might be one (but not two) scum on the lynching wagon. However, most effective buses I've seen have been EARLY votes that are cast once it starts to look pretty clear that momentum is going in the direction of the lynch.

Vollkan and Socrates fit the bill for such a bus nicely. However, I'm far from sold that there was even a scum on that lynching wagon given the difficulty in actually getting that wagon going. I just don't see scum being very willing to offer up their godfather. (Given that at that time it was likely he could be "cop cleared" if enough time was bought for him.) And on busing, later voters will tend receive the most scrutiny as potential busers. The late bus vote is a well accepted theory that I don't tend to buy as having any actual merit in real game situation.

[Zachrulez]

Anyone who's unsure or thinking of it as a policy lynch should look at 494, as it shows a clearly scummy action on Shotty's part and that action has a clear scum motivation. This isn't a policy lynch or a lynch to eliminate a VI from the game, this is a lynch on a player who has acted legitimately scummy.

Maybe we just have differing views on things, but that reads COMPLETELY like a stupid, retarded mistake due from lack of giving a fuck or lack of serious play rather than a calculated scum ploy to obscure his meta.

I feel very strongly that his lie was intentional and meant to make Scott look worse. I see a lot of scum motivation for him to have done what he did.

Regardless of all that, I can agree that Demonhydrid does look worse after the mason claim for how hard he attacked both Scott and Mae. (Attacking Mae harder when he wasn't even voting her.) I'm not sure I can hold that against him too much though as I was right there with him on the Maemuki matter.

I also wouldn't be shocked if Untrod was scum. I've had difficulty getting a read on him based on what he's been posting, and it's very possible that's intentional on his part.

[Zachrulez]

People seem clear that Shotty has a VI meta. In the circumstances, I agree with Reck that he shouldn't be lynched.

However, @Shotty: Please provide a few sentences on every single player detailing what you think about them and why.

As for busing, yeah I tend to think that it's a possibility that there might be one (but not two) scum on the lynching wagon. However, most effective buses I've seen have been EARLY votes that are cast once it starts to look pretty clear that momentum is going in the direction of the lynch.

Vollkan and Socrates fit the bill for such a bus nicely. However, I'm far from sold that there was even a scum on that lynching wagon given the difficulty in actually getting that wagon going. I just don't see scum being very willing to offer up their godfather. (Given that at that time it was likely he could be "cop cleared" if enough time was bought for him.) And on busing, later voters will tend receive the most scrutiny as potential busers. The late bus vote is a well accepted theory that I don't tend to buy as having any actual merit in real game situation.

The claim that I fit the bit for an early bus is just ridiculous conspriacy-mongering. My actions can be explained entirely on the basis of a genuine suspicion - and you've provided no reason why that explanation should be jettisoned in favour of a claim of early bussing.

And please don't come back to me and say "But I was clear that I doubted there was even a single scum on the wagon!". If you thought that, then you have no reason for pointing out how 'nicely' two people fit the bill for bussing; structuring a post in such a way as to maintain plausible deniability doesn't help you.

It's not conspiracy mongering, and your actions can not be explained solely on the basis of genuine suspicion alone. Let's not forget that you didn't initially vote until pressed to do so, and then at that point you had voted for DH before it was clear there was more support for Horrordude. It could very well be that you were gauging whether or not a wagon was likely to form before you decided whether to commit your vote in a safe place as scum.

And there's also the matter of your unvote today without actually having an active vote which you never addressed. (I was actually curious to see what you would say about that response on my part, but it seems you didn't have anything to say about it.)

The fact that you have seemingly avoided that matter is far more interesting to me than anything else.

I certainly have my reasons not to be completely comfortable with you.

[Zachrulez]

And I'm really starting to not like your "points" system, voll. Zach is right in the way that it allows you to non-commit to suspicions and votes.
You're certainly not the most town in the game. Zach is.

what exactly about vollkan's careful analysis is bad? He writes down all of his reads and states categorically whether or not they're scummy. IMO his play is super transparent. Transparency is pro-town, and we can hold him to any contradictions he makes because he assigns points to how scummy he thinks other people are.

His points system is a null tell. It's neither scummy or pro-town. (I agree with the last statement however, in that the application itself can be analyzed.)

[Zachrulez]

Somehow I emerged from the last page and a half with my sanity intact.

[Zachrulez]

This mini could have a scummy mason partner, but also he just seems like that to me because I can't read him yet. I guess scummy is the wrong word, but null to the max works

If Shotty doesn't get lynched after posting this. I honestly don't know what it's going to take.

[Zachrulez]

Why is that so impossible?

Oh I'm sorry, are you trying to convince me of something? Trying to convince me of something when you think I'm scum?

[Zachrulez]

Well Scott confirmed Mae's alignment so she's either town or scum with Scott. It's impossible for her to be a scum mason.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not seeing any motivation for Shotty town (Regardless of how dumb he may or may not be) to dispute a confirmed mason claim by attempting to argue that Mae being a scum mason is still possible.

[Zachrulez]

oh sorry I don't have much expierience with masons, i thought they functioned as lovers but no suicide

This is bullshit. I clearly asked scott here regarding whether he could confirm Maemuki's innocence.

[Zachrulez]

First, what I mean by 'conspiracy mongering' is that you are taking an action which is objectively not scummy and then attacking me based on an interpretation which presupposes that I am scum. To make this clearer, let me lay out the material facts:
1) I had a #1 suspect (HD)
2) It was close to deadline
3) My suspect doesn't look like a viable lynch
4) In the meantime, my number 2 (DH) is tied with somebody whom I didn't suspect (DMSIS)
5) Thus, after laying out a complete and very strong case against HD, I proceeded to vote DH with a disclaimer that I would change if he became a viable lynch.

Are you honestly telling me that my decision in 5) was so unreasonable that it was more likely to come from scum than town?

If I thought it was more likely to come from scum, I would be voting for you right now. The main point I make is that it's not impossible to come from scum. (In making a point about where I personally believe that busing votes could be found if they exist.)

I also named Socrates as a player that would fit the bill for a possible bus. What do you think of him?

[Zachrulez]

I see reasons for suspecting Shotty, but I don't think the mason case is one. But everything about him that I have assigned points to, I also find myself asking "Is it possible that he is really stupid enough to do this even as town?" Take the above thing about his contradictory attitude on me. It doesn't make sense even for most VIs - but he might just be dumb enough to do it....

I would still argue that he should be lynched, because he has committed actions specific to this game that have a clear and obvious scum motivation, as opposed to just doing things that are considered dumb and being considered scummy because he is doing dumb things. (Which tends to be what I see as the difference between obvious VI scum and town VI play.)

[Zachrulez]

Have you even read the game?

Points I've made regarding you are in previous posts.

[Zachrulez]

I've already stated a clear reason for voting for you in the post I voted for you.

I'm not going to make a big case for you to "destroy" because big cases are overrated.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, since you're big on cases Shotty, where's your case on me?

You know while you've completely ignored the development of my interactions with Horrordude, I actually noticed upon looking back that you never really mentioned him at all during day 1. (Your d1 attacks on me could feasibly be argued as a chainsaw defense in light of Horror's flip.)

[Zachrulez]

And the posting has gotten so frequent it took me 3 times to post that...

[Zachrulez]

I'm intrigued that regarding lylo, shotty has an extensive memory of his meta. (I figure this is relevant cause regarding the point about Scott he claimed he "forgot")

[Zachrulez]

What exactly is there for me to defend against in that case? Most of your points that you call as evidence of me being scum are game theory points. (Where you call me scummy by proposing that my opinions on game theory are wrong.) You are attacking me for my play style more than anything else in that "case".

[Zachrulez]

@ Zach- so you are saying that play style can't make you scummy?
Well with the same logic now there is nothing against me

@UT- I play well in lylo period, and I won

Take any point you've made against me and explain what I would potentially have to gain as scum by performing said action/saying said thing.

I can easily do this regarding your claim in response to Scott. Giving the town the impression that Scott only has experience with you as town makes him look worse for wanting to lynch you for the reasons he stated when he actually has 2 games of experience with you where you were scum. (Hence your action there has a clear scum motivation.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach

, your post 550 suggests that Untrod Tripod is at least slightly scummy to you, yet you also insinuate you have a null read on him. Clarify?

At that point, I didn't have a reliable read on him. The way he seemed to post to seem unreadable seemed a bit suspect to me, however in the subsequent pages, he's taken a pretty clear stance on Shotty, and my issues re: difficulty getting a read on him have been alleviated. (He's actively after and responding to Shotty, up to that point his stances and positions had been pretty passive.) I'm leaning town on him now.

[Zachrulez]

In other news, Socrates' lurking is REALLY starting to bother me.

Also, I took a look at Shotty's iso 35 and in that post he analyzes everyone but socrates.

[Zachrulez]

No you are your level DH, I am simply pointing out to the mod when you have broken the rules 8 times.

@mod- I will ask one more time please replace DH or me I can not stand being in a game where everything is made personal and nothing is about having fun

I doubt this is going to be a problem for you much longer.

[Zachrulez]

So is the game continuing in day or going into night?

Vote: Socrates

If we're continuing from here.

[Zachrulez]

I really don't think there was anything that was actually mod kill worthy, but that's just me.

[Zachrulez]

Uh, yeah, that's EXACTLY WHAT WE JUST SAID. You got your mislynch in the form of a modkill, and you're moving on to your next mislynch target - us. Last read you had on us was frustrated townie. Your switching back and forth on us is too convenient to be honest.

Shotty didn't break a rule IMO, but that's irrelevant. The day should've ended, also, but too late for that now.

Can I just point out how absurd it is that Socrates and us are the prime suspects for NOT TRYING TO LYNCH A VI, instead of the people who were vehemently pushing for an easy mislynch?

VI's can be scum. In this case, it turned out that those who thought he was scum were wrong. The evidence against him still warranted a lynch IMO, and I stand by that.

Socrates is suspect for far more than his avoidance in lynching Shotty. Take a look at his day 2 play as a whole. He's nonexistant in the discussion, and even his post regarding his position on Shotty seems designed to draw absolutely no attention onto himself.

[Zachrulez]

To be fair, they never said they "know" he's town, but rather, Reck said he thought he was rather obvious town and Soc all but pointed that way.

I'm comfortable with either's lynch.

Does the fact that Reck opposed the lynch vocally do anything to separate him from Soc's quiet opposition?

[Zachrulez]

VI's can be scum. In this case, it turned out that those who thought he was scum were wrong. The evidence against him still warranted a lynch IMO, and I stand by that.

What "evidence"? The case against him was nothing more than a glorified playstyle attack.

His claim regarding his meta with Scott and the scum motivation for that kind of fabrication of how conveniently forgetting his scum games with him would make Scott pushing his lynch look were grounds enough for a lynch in my own eyes. (I still can't believe a player would make a meta claim like this and 1. Forget that he was scum in games with the players and 2. Not check said Meta before he made a hard claim regarding said meta.) Arguing this with hindsight, but I saw this as a scum motivated lie at the time and didn't believe his explanation.

The other point would be the point in discussion where Shotty seemed to want to keep the possibility of scum mason open for Maemuki, even though it was clearly established that such a scenario would have to be impossible. (She's either mason or scum with Scott.) Again, can't believe that he wouldn't go back through the game to find and realize that establishment. Again arguing with hindsight, but I saw him making an idiotic, but scum motivated argument against the impossibility of Mae being a scum mason.

Those two points were the only reasons I wanted his lynch. (Nothing else he did was scummy for him.)

[Zachrulez]

Oh a couple other things popped to mind. Shotty's vote on me on d1 looked like a Chainsaw defense when coupled with the fact that he never mentioned horrordude. This was something that was in the back of my mind when I was looking at Shotty. (Though this weakens when he sticks with me on day 2, because really, why would a scum continue that line of attack after their buddy flips scum? This would probably be where I went wrong on shotty in favor of the d1 actions and the points raised in the above post, with those actions looking so scummy to me I didn't consider the follow up suspicion on me as evidence that he was town.)

[Zachrulez]

Skill, use this thread to advertise your need for replacements. (I went and checked and don't see your name in the thread.)

Once you post a request in there, you should get some people willing to replace in... though it might take a few days.

I'll throw the game in my sig and see if that helps too.

[Zachrulez]

His claim regarding his meta with Scott and the scum motivation for that kind of fabrication of how conveniently forgetting his scum games with him would make Scott pushing his lynch look were grounds enough for a lynch in my own eyes. (I still can't believe a player would make a meta claim like this and 1. Forget that he was scum in games with the players and 2. Not check said Meta before he made a hard claim regarding said meta.) Arguing this with hindsight, but I saw this as a scum motivated lie at the time and didn't believe his explanation.

*sigh*
This was crap at the time as well. As I said:

It proves that Shotty has played like this as scum...it doesn't prove that he only plays like this as scum. I don't buy the "he lied" argument; I couldn't tell you even 25% of the people I have played with in, say, my three most recently finished games.

It's exactly the same sort of poor logic that DH is using.

Because you can think of A reason for scum to do it (ie. lying), you single out that reason and forget to give due weight to town motivations.

What town motivation is there to make a hard meta claim that makes another player look bad without backing it up? (Or at least checking that the claim is true?)

I think it's rather unfair to say that possibility should be discarded because. "shotty is an idiot." Or that him being an idiot is more likely than the scum motivation there as it's a play that makes sense from that scum perspective. (And Shotty is a player that typically doesn't make sense.)

The other point would be the point in discussion where Shotty seemed to want to keep the possibility of scum mason open for Maemuki, even though it was clearly established that such a scenario would have to be impossible. (She's either mason or scum with Scott.) Again, can't believe that he wouldn't go back through the game to find and realize that establishment. Again arguing with hindsight, but I saw him making an idiotic, but scum motivated argument against the impossibility of Mae being a scum mason.

"idiotic, but scum motiated"

How does "idiotic but scum motivated" look any different from "idiotic but town motivated"? It just looked idiotic - which is what it was and which is what a number of us were saying that it was at the time.

You going to seriously tell me that it's impossible to see Shotty as scum in that situation trying to argue for Maemuki being a scum mason after the discussion that established that she couldn't have been? (demonstrating that he didn't even pay attention to that discussion?)

I think you can make a justifiable argument that Shotty was scum there trying to unclear a player. (As having players cleared is bad for scum.)

None of that makes possible town motivations impossible, I just felt that the scum motivations were more likely with the way the game was unfolding.

Shotty's vote on me on d1 looked like a Chainsaw defense

There is no such thing as a "chainsaw defence"

I suppose that wiki article that mentions it is just for show then?...

[Zachrulez]

I'm not particularly interested in Reckamonic. Why do you think he's scum?

[Zachrulez]

Calling people scum for having correct reads is just bad play. Obviously the people who thought DMSIS were better players in this case, and it certainly doesn't mean that they must have had some inside information.

(snip)

I'm noticing a distinct lack of analysis of players who

were

pushing for DMSIS's mislynch by DH and UT. Selective targeting, much?

Well obviously everyone who said he was town is a better player. Also the people who were pushing the wagon should be investigated. But not me. I'm innocent



You were pushing for it too. Also, the fact that he flipped town doesn't mean he wasn't playing like absolute scum. This looks like a subtle attempt to distance yourself from the wagon while inching towards the DH one. Just IMO, Shotty was playing SO BADLY and SO ANTI TOWN that calling him obvtown seems like a kind of clairvoyance. Or inside knowledge.

No, he's not distancing from the wagon, he's pointing out the fact that the targeting of yourself and DH toward players who were opposed to Shotty's lynch is selective and wrong. They're no more likely to be scum than the people who were on the wagon. Given the situation you can argue a pretty close to equal likleyhood that scum could have very easily picked one side or the other, benefiting from blending into the group of people who wanted Shotty dead, or attempting to gain town cred by saying the lynch was wrong.

I think post 736 conveys the thought he's trying to express a lot better.

We should take a good look at the wagon and try to figure out everyone's view of shotty. People finding him too town should be looked at (since they know he's town).

Alright, what the hell DemonHybrid? We should take an extra careful look at the people who were right about DMSIS? Bullshit.

If anything we should look at the people who were pushing a mislynch -- including me.

That's not to say we shouldn't look at those people at all, but singling them out is just wrong.
---
Well, with DMSIS flipping town it's time to head back to the drawing board. I'm curious as to whether or not Socrates will need replacing, or if he'll come back. And if he does, what will he say?

Statement in quote bolded for emphasis.

Now I will quote the manner in which you represented post 772.

Well obviously everyone who said he was town is a better player. Also the people who were pushing the wagon should be investigated. But not me. I'm innocent.

Not only does he not say that in 772, post 736 says the opposite. You either didn't read that post or you don't recall it, the latter I find unlikely because 736 was only a page before your post in response to 772.

[Zachrulez]

What town motivation is there to make a hard meta claim that makes another player look bad without backing it up? (Or at least checking that the claim is true?)

I think it's rather unfair to say that possibility should be discarded because. "shotty is an idiot." Or that him being an idiot is more likely than the scum motivation there as it's a play that makes sense from that scum perspective. (And Shotty is a player that typically doesn't make sense.)

There doesn't need to be a town motivation for something to be "not scummy". It just has to be the case that there is no good reason for thinking a scum motivation any more likely than a null explanation (ie. Shotty is an idiot who can't be expected to make sense)

That's crap. How exactly is the nulltell you listed equally likely? How can you argue that an action doesn't make sense when it does from a scum perspective? Your argument here doesn't make any sense to me.

The fact that you say it is "unfair" makes me suspect that what you are really getting it is a policy consideration - that if we let people get away with being stupid, that encourages stupidity. Is that correct?

Certainly made it easier for me to be comfortable with his lynch. My concern is actually less about encouraging stupidity as it is/was the increasing risk he would present to the town the deeper into the game he got. (Regardless of his actual alignment.)

You going to seriously tell me that it's impossible to see Shotty as scum in that situation trying to argue for Maemuki being a scum mason after the discussion that established that she couldn't have been? (demonstrating that he didn't even pay attention to that discussion?)

I think you can make a justifiable argument that Shotty was scum there trying to unclear a player. (As having players cleared is bad for scum.)

None of that makes possible town motivations impossible, I just felt that the scum motivations were more likely with the way the game was unfolding.

The question is not whether it was possible to see him as scum, but whether that was the most

likely

explanation (I think it's possible that you're scum; should I vote you?). The wagonners showed complete disregard for the fact that him being a VI made the wagon dodgy.

I have to disagree with this because you're making a hard and generic statement about "the wagoners." I can't speak for everyone on the wagon, but I can say that I didn't show a complete disregard for the fact that he was a VI. Case in point Shotty's day 1 actions were full of stupidity, but it was the stupidity of a VI that didn't make sense from any perspective. Some (not all.) of his day 2 play made sense from a scum perspective. You can't accuse everyone on the wagon of showing complete disregard to him being a VI when they come up with a plausible reason for voting him.

I suppose that wiki article that mentions it is just for show then?...

I don't want a debate on this, but (largely for my own entertainment) let me explain how "chainsawing" became a (made-up) scumtell:
1) One player (Tarhalindur) came up with his own set of scumtells, that apparently worked for him.
2) Tarhalindur made a wiki page listing his tells in an article called "Tarhalindur Standard Tells"
3) Every single newbie who came to the site searched "scumtells" into the wiki and found said article above
4) Every single newbie started playing as thought it was an accepted scumtelll rather than just a single player's views
5) Every single subsequent newbie (and some players who should know better) started seeing chainsaw being thrown around and it became a meme

The whole thing is just a gigantic exercise in groupthink.

The only response I'm going to give to this is that I haven't seen newbies reference this scum tell much in my own experience. The rest of it isn't even worth the debate at this point because it doesn't actually accomplish anything in the context of this game.

[Zachrulez]

Also for curiosity sake... Vollkan, where was Shotty in your points system relative to everyone else at the time of his mod kill?

[Zachrulez]

Also for curiosity sake... Vollkan, where was Shotty in your points system relative to everyone else at the time of his mod kill?

I'd say around 53. I'd allocated him more points than that, but as I indicated a few times, I'd become less and less confident in my scumtells against him as it became more and more obvious that he was a moron.

That seems a bit contrary to the number I actually worked out (Which I think was about 58.) and a bit in-transparent, given that you have made it clear with pretty much everyone else you've scored what you give points to and take away points from.

What particular scum tell points did you nullify?

Also I was interested in what you had everyone at right before his modkill cause I was interested in how your score for him compared to everyone else. (And yes, I want to compare it with the score you ASSIGNED, not the one you are claiming now.)

[Zachrulez]

The early mason claim seems dubious and out of place, but we're not willing to take a risk lynching claimed masons like that. If they're actually masons, then mafia are gonna want to get rid of them quickly. We'll see a flip sooner or later to confirm this. It pains us to let Scott go like that, but alas.

Really really really disliking DH's quick dismissal of the mason claims though.

Disliking the DMSIS bandwagon even more. You guys (see: Scott & Zach) are seriously going to jump on a WELL-KNOWN VILLAGE IDIOT for mixing up how many games he has played with someone? Really, it may be wrong/a mistake, but how does that make him scum? Then, DemonHybrid joins the wagon after it's already rolling full steam ahead. Then... WHAT THE BALLS, ALDY, YOU TOO!?

This wagon is bad bad bad bad bad. We would much rather see DemonHybrid's neck in some rope today. This DMSIS wagon just screams "Deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch, deadline lynch!" and the wagon is being pushed on flimsy logic and, pardon our French,

bullshit

cases.

DMSIS is solely being pushed because he's playing like an imbecile. Newsflash, this is how he plays, and nothing he's done is outstandingly scummy. Just idiotic.

Anyone who's unsure or thinking of it as a policy lynch should look at 494, as it shows a clearly scummy action on Shotty's part and that action has a clear scum motivation. This isn't a policy lynch or a lynch to eliminate a VI from the game, this is a lynch on a player who has acted legitimately scummy.

Maybe we just have differing views on things, but that reads COMPLETELY like a stupid, retarded mistake due from lack of giving a fuck or lack of serious play rather than a calculated scum ploy to obscure his meta.

On a non-DMSIS related note, Untrod Tripod's post about us and Socrates strike us as... odd. He brings up the fact that the two (or is it three?) of us have had our votes on DH for a lot of the game... then goes "Eh. Maybe it means nothing. JUST POINTING IT OUT." If you have nothing to say as far as scumtell or towntell or ANYTHING regarding your reads, why just bring it up OUT OF NOWHERE and then not mention it? This is scummy. You're pointing things out, then just hoping someone else will take the bait and run with it. Explain what you find particularly scummy about our vote on DemonHybrid AND Socrates' vote on DemonHybrid. Now.

Here's the post in question.

Funny, I CTRL+F'd and searched for "null" and "neutral", and couldn't find anything.

Nowhere in that post does he call Shotty town. He just calls it a bad wagon.

I think this back and forth between the two of you is likely town vs town. I've had a town read on Reckamonic for a while, and as far as you go, I'm tending to think you're drawing too much attention to yourself to be scum. (I also did an activity based check on your previous games on MS under both alignments.)

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Further fueling my suspicion is that Untrod has had NOTHING to say about this, despite the fact that he's been on site and posting elsewhere. Hoping it gets buried under pages of Reck and DH fighting?

Unvote: Vote: Untrod

[Zachrulez]

I've had a town read on Reckamonic for a while

Why?

The easy answer here would be that:

1. I don't find them scummy. (Simplest answer)
2. I tend to like what they have to say a lot of the time, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. They take stances and are proactive.

Anyway, I'D LIKE TO DRAW EVERYONE'S ATTENTION BACK TO THIS.

Where Untrod makes a horrible accusation about Ald trying to distance himself from the Shotty wagon, even though no such thing was actually happening.

Why is it horrible? DH had some suspicion on him, and it's pretty easy to flip the wagon back onto the person who was pushing it when someone flips town. Just because Ald said "I guess we should look at me too" doesn't mean he isn't trying to flip suspicion onto DH and me.

Because you try to characterize him as saying something he didn't actually say, and your reaction to what he said pangs defensive.

Further fueling my suspicion is that Untrod has had NOTHING to say about this, despite the fact that he's been on site and posting elsewhere. Hoping it gets buried under pages of Reck and DH fighting?

No. Not posting doesn't mean I'm hoping it gets buried, it just means I'm not posting in this game. Hoping it would get buried would be retarded.

Not if it actually works.

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

How interesting. Your top suspects are... the guy you've been yelling at all game, the guy who said you were likely scum, and the guy I said was likely scum if you weren't.

I suspected Horrordude was scum and he happened to say I was likely scum. SO WHAT?

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

No it doesn't. Admittedly it would be a ballsy and stupid move for scum to claim masons, but we're just taking their word for it atm.
I can agree on vollkan
yeah, unless the final two scum are between you/DH/Soc/Zach/Al. that's assuming this was a 3 member scum team. could just be a 2 member deal.

Niiiiiiice jab at the mason claim. Is there any reason you feel the need to dispute it? (If you could find even a handful of games out of thousands where a scum team fake claims masons as a gambit I would be surprised.)

[Zachrulez]

I'd really like to see all the spots replaced before we face any deadline...

The game is in a stagnant state because a significant portion of the players replaced out. We're waiting for input from one replacement, and we're still waiting for 2 more replacements period, one of which is under some suspicion, but has no one playing the spot for further analysis.

[Zachrulez]

When I subtract points normally, it is because a specific scumtell has been negated.

Shotty was different. As I said way back:

I see reasons for suspecting Shotty, but I don't think the mason case is one. But everything about him that I have assigned points to, I also find myself asking "Is it possible that he is really stupid enough to do this even as town?" Take the above thing about his contradictory attitude on me. It doesn't make sense even for most VIs - but he might just be dumb enough to do it....

I accept that there would be a problem in what I am saying now if I hadn't indicated that I was uncertain about my points on Shotty - but in the above I very clearly was. This is very different from the times when I have subtracted points because those were in relation to specific arguments of mine being refuted at a single point in time, whereas with Shotty it was a case of realising over time that he wasn't as scummy as my points indicated (and, since you asked, I am fairly sure that he had the most points at the time of his flip)

If I had been scoring Shotty at the time of his flip, having seen his play in total, he would have gotten a 53 from me. The +3 is from this specific tell:

Despite being a VI, this is genuinely scummy. Shotty+3

Reason is simple - town-Shotty's gut reads, crappy as they may be, must be taken to be genuine. The fact that he changed his read so easily on me is utterly inconsistent with that. To the contrary, it suggests that he was buddying to me initially and/or wanted to avoid any questioning from DH.

The only reason that one retained validity is that the last-ditch assumption I make for VIs is that they mean what they say. Clearly, though, even that doesn't hold in extreme cases like Shotty

Is there an instance in a previous game where you've subtracted points in a similar way you did here with Shotty?

[Zachrulez]

We still need more input from the replacements.

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

[Zachrulez]

We still need more input from the replacements.

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

I don't recall anyone saying "let's lynch the claimed masons".

But there has been some sentiment against them stated.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

Why?

(Also, in pre-emption, I am not implying that I am in favour of lynching the masons today)

Mostly because masons are a problem for scum, regardless of how they may look in any situation. I think it would be foolish to lynch the claimed masons today because if they are masons (And I think they almost certainly are.) we're essentially solving scum's problem for them.

We still need more input from the replacements.

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

I don't recall anyone saying "let's lynch the claimed masons".

But there has been some sentiment against them stated.

Do you agree with the sentiments expressed against them?

The thing that you and DH consider scummy about Nikanor... eeeeeeeh. (I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't move me that much.)

I do agree that they're not posting nearly enough content.

I highly doubt the claim is fake because BOTH scum would have to survive through this day phase AND the next 2 in order to win, and a single one of them dying at any time and flipping scum damns the other instantly.

[Zachrulez]

I highly doubt the claim is fake because BOTH scum would have to survive through this day phase AND the next 2 in order to win, and a single one of them dying at any time and flipping scum damns the other instantly.

Right. But if they are scum, we can reasonably expect that they won't die other than by lynching. This makes it a kind of "Burn the person suspected of being a witch to see if they are a witch" situation. Masons aren't a threatening role for scum and the fact that the mason play has been scummy creates a ripe environment for scum to adopt the "Keep them away and play the WIFOM game" strategy.

I disagree, masons are in fact very threatening to scum, and that threat grows the longer masons are allowed to live. (They control a larger pro-town bloc of the voting the smaller the game gets.)

[Zachrulez]

Basically, they are either scum and will continue to live through to endgame no matter what, (And will still autolose regardless of WHEN we lynch them. (Unless there's more than 3 scum which is unlikely in a mini normal.)) they are masons and scum will keep them alive for WIFOM as you are claiming as a possibility, (Which I think is a risk they won't take if the mason claim is true.) or the problem will sort itself out and the scum will target the masons.

All of the above is a good reason not to lynch the claimed masons today. Getting the flips of other players will tell us a lot about the validity of the claim. (For instance if we lynch scum, they are confirmed.)

[Zachrulez]

So does that mean you believe the mason claim now or do 839 and 841 still stand as concerns to you?

Or do you tend to believe they are likely masons and said actions simply concern you?

[Zachrulez]

As in: That's what claimed masons but really scum would DO, but doesn't necessarily make them scum. I'm still willing to believe they're just full of themselves and anti-town.

I got it.

Also we're getting into a deadline crunch now.

I think scum is in Hito, Untrod, and Vollkan.

Hito I admittedly suspect because of Soc's actions before replacement, but as it is, I'd be happy to lynch either him or Untrod today, and Vollkan if neither of those are possible.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote Hito

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

Vote: Hito

Just in case of vote not being counted due to formatting technicality.

[Zachrulez]

His post 101 is a power role suggestion/hint. If he claims a PR, this'll make it feel more legit. If he claims VT, this is a little scummy, because it's hinting at a PR for no reason.

The bottom paragraph of DH's iso 101 actually hints that he's going to claim vanilla if anything else.

I don't get where you see this as him softclaiming power at all.

[Zachrulez]

The bottom paragraph of DH's iso 101 actually hints that he's going to claim vanilla if anything else.

I don't get where you see this as him softclaiming power at all.

I'm of the school that bringing up claims at all is to prime the idea of "PR" in everyone's mind. Vanilla townies shouldn't - and from my experience, don't - talk about claiming at all. They keep silent to make it harder for scum to shoot the right person, and they only claim when someone tells to. If you've had different experiences, I'm all ears.

That's assuming optimal play. In practice, players make mistakes. Coloring that post as anything but a vanilla townie slip is ridiculous IMO. I don't find that post scummy.

Obviously, I can't answer for Socrates in any way, but I guess my question to you, Zach, is why is DH not a scum candidate of yours? And would you lynch him if it came down to no lynch or lynch DH?

Gut, and activity based meta. If it was between no lynch and lynch DH, I would lynch DH. In this game, that won't happen though. The player with the most votes will be lynched at the end of the day.

I also don't expect you to answer for Socrates, but on the same breath, you can't expect me to stop suspecting your slot just because you replaced in.

[Zachrulez]

I'm going to skip alphabetical order and do my horror iso next. If I find what I suspect I'll find – that is, horror completely ignoring DH – I'll vote DH right here and now.

If I don't, I'll be in a weird spot with a closing in deadline and very few iso's done.

I'll have to wing it from my impressions from the horror iso if I find they clear DH as town. Honestly, if horror iso gives a null impression on DH-scum I'll probably vote him anyway because a.) there are scumtells on DH beyond his connection with horror and b.) his playstyle of “post a lot, including insignificant back and forth reply wars, but without so much as taking the time to keep his tags working” is a detriment to town, so it's a decent lynch regardless of alignment.

Taking a break because I literally wrote that ISO instead of sleeping. Be back sometime today.

And the bolded is what bothers me about your play. (As opposed to Soc's)

I don't like the idea of you getting through the day with relatively few positions on everyone in the game.

[Zachrulez]

His ISO 10’s “Might vote Reckamonic, pending his answers to my questions” pings me as scummy. Scum tend to foreshadow their votes more than town.

Reading through your Ald case now. This point in particular interests me because of the quote in the post above, which it arguably you foreshadowing a DH vote.

[Zachrulez]

I’ve always used the hesitance to vote and the need to herald intentions before voting as scumtells. They’ve been useful but usually it’s hard to see when they are used. Aldus is, by far, the clearest example of this I’ve ever seen. It pops up over and over again. I won’t vote for him because this is the first ISO, but he’s probably getting my vote when I finish.

Aldus, if you’re town, a meta link where you show this same lynch-forecasting behavior as town would go a long way towards helping you out.

More foreshadowing.

[Zachrulez]

Why not iso others and do DH last? Would have yielded more reads, and you could have even gotten some read of DH out if you couldn't have finished in time.

As for the foreshadowing, I don't see the difference between what you accused them of doing and what I saw you do.

I don't even think that foreshadowing your vote is scummy. The reason that this point of discussion is relevant to me is because you are arguing it is, and I see behavior from you that looks the same as what you're accusing them of.

[Zachrulez]

If Vollkan votes based on his scores, DH is effectively hammered.

Reckamonic hasn't posted in 8 days.

Mod, Prod please?

[Zachrulez]

DH, since your lynch is likely at this point could you post your full suspicion list?

[Zachrulez]

Vollkan, you quoted the wrong person there. I didn't say any of those things, Ald did.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, arguing with hitogoroshi over his decision to iso DH before everyone else is just a waste of time. That does not make him scummy for iso'ing DH first, at all.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

What I actually find suspicious about Hito's play is the vote foreshadowing hypocrisy I laid out earlier.

The bulk of my suspicion is based on Soc's play. (And I've already admitted that.)

[Zachrulez]

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

My order is alphabetical according to original occupant of the slot, precisely to dodge any allegations of gaming the order. I do agree I probably should have skipped DH, but the concept of breaking ISO order is a new one to me. I'll have to consider it in the future, but skimming my meta will show that alphabetical by first inhabitant is my norm.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

It's not scummy unless I can prove he deliberately did it, which is next to impossible. Regardless, I still don't like it.

My order is alphabetical according to original occupant of the slot, precisely to dodge any allegations of gaming the order. I do agree I probably should have skipped DH, but the concept of breaking ISO order is a new one to me. I'll have to consider it in the future, but skimming my meta will show that alphabetical by first inhabitant is my norm.

Fair enough.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Hey demonhybrid, what the hell is post 912 about? Cause it looks like something Volkan should have said. Don't tell me we have one person logging in to two accounts in the same game...?

Yeah, that was bizarre.

And I'm actually having trouble thinking of any other context that post can make sense other than the context that you speculated on Hito.

Both of them need to respond.

[Zachrulez]

I'm surprised Voll hasn't hammered me yet. I thought 58 was the cutoff?

Point me please to where I said 58 was the cutoff.

You should have quoted that. Following my post with what you said looked really bad.

Also, Vollkan, why did you attribute quotes to me that were said by Ald?

[Zachrulez]

Definitely want to see more from Nikanor, Nobody Special, and Hito today.

[Zachrulez]

*Twitch* Well THIS is familiar.

[Zachrulez]

To follow up, you think Reckamonic is lynch worthy for lurking and/or failing to follow through on a post they said they'd have up yesterday?

Also for note, your own level of activity is not distinguishing you here...

Did you ever catch up on the game? Do you have any thoughts on it beyond voting for weak reasons?

[Zachrulez]

Ok it's a pressure vote.

Why haven't you posted any content beyond that?

[Zachrulez]

Definitely want to see more from Nikanor, Nobody Special, and Hito today.

We agree, but could you not add a little content to this post? Where do your scumreads lie?

I'm most interested in these 3. Hito suspicions carry over from yesterday and DH's flip doesn't change anything in that regard.

The claimed masons are starting to nag at me because of their lack of activity, and the lack of activity of their predecessors. The claims are actually very easy to ride through many day phases, and lynching them carries the stigma of lynching claimed masons.

And that's pretty much where I'm at, mulling over whether I think it's more likely that Hito is scum with someone else, or if the claimed masons themselves are.

[Zachrulez]

My confidence in the mason claim starts to fall the longer we go without lynching scum, and the longer they go without showing any interest in the game, most particularly because if they are masons, they're in the best position to find scum and seem to be the least interested in actually doing it.

Also, setup based theory changes my opinion as well. The lack of a kill seems to indicate that something stopped the kill. The existence of a role capable of stopping a kill in a game that's already had a cop flip makes me a lot more skeptical about a mason claim. (I'm not sure how likely it is that scum would actually forgo their kill at this point in the game.)

If it was the case that we're looking at Cop+doc(or some variation)+masons does that kind of setup seem workable? Giving it more thought, I'm not sure how believable I find the masons being paired with a cop. (Cleared townies plus investigations)

I'm thinking that a massclaim might give us a pretty good idea of what's going on. (And if there are going to be pr claims, I'd rather not deal with them in mylo or lylo.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm not sure about that. Once you get the godfather out of the way, having a cop able to clear townies with masons already in the game seems pretty powerful to me. (Plus the other scum are likely not inv-immune)

[Zachrulez]

And that's pretty much where I'm at, mulling over whether I think it's more likely that Hito is scum with someone else, or if the claimed masons themselves are.

This makes me think a little. I know I'm town. Zach, if you similarly knew I was town, what would you put the odds at for the mason's fakeclaiming?

It would rise. After my suspicions of you, my suspect pool outside the mason claims gets significantly smaller. (I'm left with Untrod who I find suspicious, and everyone else, who I have weak to solid town reads on.) I would find it hard to envision a scumteam outside the claimed masonry if you weren't scum.

[Zachrulez]

vollkan meta basically clears him of my suspicions. In 2 games he subtracted points only once, so obviously it is not common for him to do it.

Just read this. How does this make him more likely to be town? As far as I can see the only observation you've made is that it's not common for him to subtract points. (Not the implied one that he only does it as town, which 2 games of meta won't even come close to telling you.)

This statement is unacceptable given the fact that you found his "inconsistencies" so scummy yesterday that you voted him over the major wagons, a position that made your stance on those major wagons unclear.

[Zachrulez]

Mod: Everyone besides myself and Vollkan is due for a prod

[Zachrulez]

Preemptive prod dodge. Still here, still busy in life (I have math tests thursday and friday :/) and in other games (YOU KNOW THE ONE I MEAN).

How do we feel about lynching a claimed mason? I feel super-skeevy doing it but its not like much is happening with their confirmed town status and it would end the WIFOM before LYLO. On the other hand, I can't think of a single time ever I've seen scum fakeclaim mason. Someone who was there: what was the pressure looking like on Mae/Scott? Was there a feeling of "called the scumteam" that could have driven them to desperation?

Both major wagons were on them on d2 when Scott claimed.

[Zachrulez]

Also I know you're busy Hito, but it would still be nice if you could devote some time to this game.

[Zachrulez]

Reading from page 18 will give a good perspective on the events leading up to the mason claims.

[Zachrulez]

vollkan meta basically clears him of my suspicions. In 2 games he subtracted points only once, so obviously it is not common for him to do it.

Just read this. How does this make him more likely to be town? As far as I can see the only observation you've made is that it's not common for him to subtract points. (Not the implied one that he only does it as town, which 2 games of meta won't even come close to telling you.)

This statement is unacceptable given the fact that you found his "inconsistencies" so scummy yesterday that you voted him over the major wagons, a position that made your stance on those major wagons unclear.

@Aldusskel: I think I know what you mean here, but please answer this

Now that Ald has requested replacement out of the game and we can no longer expect an answer, can you elaborate on this?

[Zachrulez]

I think that if there's a doctor/RB who stopped the kill, he should probably speak up now to break the game.

I still need to finish my read of the game, but I can probably do that on Saturday. See you then.

Right, it would be Sunday now.

[Zachrulez]

Wow, it's been two weeks already?

Given that the claimed masons have managed to effectively lurk the entire day phase, (Where everyone's more or less been waiting for any kind of input from them.) I don't have any problems with either one of them being lynched today.

[Zachrulez]

Which player slots do you suppose have had the most critical need for content and have not provided any?

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Nobody Special

Would like to see some clarification on the deadline, but I'm fine with this lynch.

[Zachrulez]

The game opened on the 25th. It has been 2 weeks.

[Zachrulez]

There's only been about 3 pages since your lynch actually, so there's really not that much to get caught up on.

[Zachrulez]

Preemptive prod dodge. Still here, still busy in life (I have math tests thursday and friday :/) and in other games (YOU KNOW THE ONE I MEAN).

How do we feel about lynching a claimed mason?

I feel super-skeevy doing it

but its not like much is happening with their confirmed town status and it would end the WIFOM before LYLO. On the other hand,

I can't think of a single time ever I've seen scum fakeclaim mason.

Someone who was there: what was the pressure looking like on Mae/Scott? Was there a feeling of "called the scumteam" that could have driven them to desperation?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2613410

You feel skeevy doing it, and then, hurray! Finally after an "ISO", you change your tune. I clearly remember you back during Day 2 commenting on the mason situation, so why would you require an ISO again? My doppelganger even brought up the situation to you earlier.

He commented on it day 2? Where?

[Zachrulez]

Or... I could have read the post right below your first post.

Anyway, I feel stupid for not doing this yesterday.

Vote: Hitogoroshi

[Zachrulez]

I'd like to hear what he has to say before I vote him. We have two MLs in a 3 scum total game, so this is critical.

Well if there's 2 scum left, this is actually mylo.

[Zachrulez]

If you want to hear what he has to say and aren't prepared to vote him yet, that's fair enough. I'm confident he's scum and that one of untrod/reckomonic is scum with him.

[Zachrulez]

Ah. Skill didn't update the first post then.

Do we want to no-lynch then?

Preview edit: Yes, please.

No we don't. Nikanor is a confirmed mason and it would be impractical to do so. (He would almost certainly be the nk and we'd be in the exact same position we are now.)

[Zachrulez]

Skill, 6 players are alive, and it's 4 to lynch.

Thank you!

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Don't like Untrod's quick vote at all.

[Zachrulez]

I want Hito's thoughts on his wagon, and on the events that have transpired.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Don't like Untrod's quick vote at all.

The last hito vote was on Thursday. The last votecount was on Friday. I've been saying for most of the game that his slot is scummy. Quick isn't exactly the right word to describe my vote.

I read back a little bit, and you had voiced more suspicion of Hito than I thought at previous points in the game. That was a bit of a paranoia twitch there on my part.

DH interestingly has turned the guns full on to you now with my vote off of Hito, I'm starting to learn toward the scumteam being DH/Hito actually.

[Zachrulez]

I'm re-reading Hito's contributions through the day, and saying he needs to find the townie out of DH, Reck, and Untrod under the assumption that I'm town just seems off.

I'm remembering back when he initially replaced in and he made a long winded case toward Ald being scum, and never actually ended up voting on it. Then he turned toward DH and came up with reasons for him to be scum when he was the viable alternative to the DH 1.0 wagon. Go forward to day 3, he doesn't even so much as explore the Ald suspicion he stated on day 2 except for some brief allusions to it. Then we get here on day 4, and he's still not following up on it/exploring it... it's just he has to find the townie in this group of players. (With that presuming I'm town.)

Still want to see what Hito has to say for himself, but I think at the end of the day, he needs to be the lynch.

[Zachrulez]

I've gone back and looked at the 8th vote count of day 1, and it's left me really uncertain about Hito scum at this point, as scum Soc voting for horror at that point would have seriously hindered any possible counterwagons for scum. As I glance at that paticular wagon, I can't help but notice Untrod and Ald on the same Scott Brosius wagon, and I also can't help but think (as hyposcum) that any attempt they might make to keep Horror from being the leading wagon would end up looking pretty obvious should such an attempt have failed.

[Zachrulez]

@Skill: The deadline is the 7th of november, fix that?

More inclined to believe a DH2/UT scumteam over a Hito scum. Having a hard time explaining the massive vote-swinging on Hito and the complete lack of vote from DH to UT even though the latter is in no risk of a quickhammer.

Vote: DemonHybrid

Déjà Vu

This is somewhat of a reversal from an earlier position you stated on Ald.

We would put good money on the final scums being somewhere within DH, UT, and Socrates.

Masons clear SB & Maemuki.
We have town reads on vollkan, Zach, and to a lesser extent Alduskkel.
PoE means the final two scum have to be within DH/UT/Socrates.

Huzzah.

What's changed your read on Ald? DH's play?

Also, what's changed your read on Hito? Or is the read just weaker than the read you now have on DH?

Based on the consistency of your UT scum read, it would have made more sense to have voted him IMO.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow...

[Zachrulez]

My thought is for the town to just vote no lynch and let DH and the scumteam go at it at night. (Because that bulletproof claim could be a lie.)

[Zachrulez]

My thought is for the town to just vote no lynch and let DH and the scumteam go at it at night. (Because that bulletproof claim could be a lie.)

It is not. And I will be targeting Nikanor tonight if you do that :\ Not going to risk killing Mafia and giving you guys the chance to lynch me.

And what exactly are you going to do if we lynch?...

[Zachrulez]

You realize if you openly kill nikanor/mykonian at night assuming 2 scum left, they can just kill another townie for 50% (Which would win them the game depending on how the wincon is worded.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm tempted to just lynch DH in this position, it's quite possible that there could only be a total of 2 scum vs 3, and that's about the only scenario I can see town winning in.

[Zachrulez]

I'm telling you for the sake of my wincon and your wincon.

Our wincon is already dead, buried and slaughtered if there are 2 mafioso left DH. If there are one, your death is beneficial.

We're not unvoting

Yeah, I've gone through the scenarios in my head, and I have to agree with that assessment.

Vote: DemonHybrid

[Zachrulez]

Regardless of the flip and regardless of a choice of no-lynch, there is still a chance I can fuck something up and give you guys the win, but you are handing mafia the win by doing this, guaranteed. Scum can not be this underpowered.

That's my warning to you, take it or leave it, town.

You won't attempt to kill mafia unless it benefits you, and it only benefits you if we lynch town.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: No-Lynch

If you guys want to take the chance, here you go. Otherwise, please sit there and think about your vote on me, especially after there's no motivation for me to claim as an SK when there's a possibility that there could be one mafia left. Trust me, there's

not

.

There's no way for you to know that for sure without actually being scum yourself. Unless there's some clairvoyant powers you possess that you aren't telling us about. And even if you claimed you did, you could still be lying.

[Zachrulez]

If you need proof, take Night 2 for example; no one died and I'm very sure Mafia targeted Alduskkel. I was never given a list of who Alduskkel targeted, but I assumed vollkan blocked it.

Hi.

[Zachrulez]

Well seeing that you're claiming they can confirm you're bulletproof, chances are they won't bother killing you.

Plus what Reck said, it's still PD.

[Zachrulez]

Well seeing that you're claiming they can confirm you're bulletproof, chances are they won't bother killing you.

Plus what Reck said, it's still PD.

And how do you know that?

Seriously, there are a ton of outcomes and options when pursuing a no-lynch here, with a town win being a few of them, regardless of PD or not.

I don't, it's what you're claiming.

There are no town win scenarios vs you and two scum.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Want to make sure I've considered everything.

[Zachrulez]

It should be pointed out that DH's claim is intended to prevent any lynch pressure from forming on him on the premise that we should go out and lynch scum.

What if he's actually scum? Then we're vastly reducing our chances to find scum.

[Zachrulez]

It should be pointed out that DH's claim is intended to prevent any lynch pressure from forming on him on the premise that we should go out and lynch scum.

What if he's actually scum? Then we're vastly reducing our chances to find scum.

oh for gods sake, just bus. Or don't. Either way, the worst thing you can do is:

1. not comment on Reck
2. actually not do anything
3. acting like you are confused and you don't know what to do.

Seriously, you are tripping every single scumtell for a situation like this. Even lurking is better then this.

It doesn't really matter what we do if DH is telling the truth about being a sk and there's two scum. Reckamonic may be prob scum or whatever, but as long as DH lives, there's no way the town's going to win.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Demonhybrid

I'd still rather do this.

I'd lynch Reck too if we can't get a majority on DH, but I think lynching DH is the only way the town has any chance of winning.

All attempting to lynch scum does at this point is help further DH's wincon, and there's a chance that he's scum anyway.;

[Zachrulez]

btw, a game setup with a nk immune sk sucks, otherwise we could just no lynch and let some crosskills happen :-s

[Zachrulez]

Well see, my position is that DH is guaranteed not to flip town... and I'm not necessarily believing the SK claim, we haven't had multiple kills all game and in fact didn't even have a kill one night, (that's got to be a mathematical unlikelihood.) and the only other reason to really believe it is the kill flavor, which we may or may not be putting too much stock into.

[Zachrulez]

Your reticence to lynch anti-town players is noted, hito.

Why not aim this at Myko as well? Oh that's right, because

he's confirmed town.

Maybe when the confirmed townie is doing something you should seriously think about it instead of just blindly attacking the non-confirmed players following him?

Here is the thing you guys are missing. We have to pick potential scum at some point. Savvy? You can pick now, when confirmed townie is telling you who to pick, or you can pick later, when the confirmed townie is dead. Why exactly does everyone prefer the later? UT, what exactly do you anticipate happening when "the dust settles" besides sitting in the exact same spot sans confirmed townie? If you mentioned no-lynching and a reason why you think we could hit 1-0-2 I'd listen, but you're not saying that, which suggests to me you're simply not thinking at all.

Are you as locked into lynching Reckamonic as Mykonian is?

[Zachrulez]

Eh... fuck it

Unvote: Vote: Reckamonic

Just so we're clear, if there's a tomorrow, I have every intention of lynching DH.

[Zachrulez]

Fun... absolutely powerless in this position...

[Zachrulez]

No lynch? (IDK)

[Zachrulez]

Blegh

Vote: No lynch

It's a small speck of a hope, but it's better than the 0% chance of victory of lynching someone.

[Zachrulez]

Btw, no lynch is 50%, so it only needs two votes.

[Zachrulez]

Well this night is going to be fun.

[Zachrulez]

How does your kill on Hito failing make him the scum roleblocker?

Why in the same breath couldn't Untrod have roleblocked you, or even me? The result would be the same...

[Zachrulez]

Suddenly this game is awesome.

[Zachrulez]

I love how long it took you to realize.

[Zachrulez]

Oh please, if there's a scum here, you KNOW who it is.

[Zachrulez]

Oh please, if there's a scum here, you KNOW who it is.

This is literally the SAME situation as Day 4, broski. And I will not be targeting hito tonight.

Heads or tails, Zach?

lol, I don't care, you can have your night any which way you like it, but if either Hito or I come out of it alive, you lose.

[Zachrulez]

Doesn't matter, I have no control over the night phase, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.