Mini 1042 - Skillville - GAME OVER!

[DemonHybrid]

UT, I can see where he's coming from. Lay off of Zach, I know what he means. Look at vollkan's post about the masons going "haha, we're masons, don't bother reading, lynch this guy". Don't you think that vollkan is actually considering putting a vote onto Nikanor?

[Skill006]

Tenth Vote Count for Day 2:

DemonHybrid (2) – Reckamonic, Nikanor
Reckamonic (1) – DemonHybrid
hitogoroshi (1) - Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod (1) – Zachrulez

Not Voting: Nobody Special, vollkan, Alduskkel, hitogoroshi

Deadline is Thursday, October 21, 10:00 pm CST.
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

[Nobody Special]

I am still catching up. I won't have much access until Tuesday morning, but until then:

Vote: DH

[DemonHybrid]

I am still catching up. I won't have much access until Tuesday morning, but until then:

Vote: DH

Nice case, bro.

I'm getting some deja vu.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't like being L-2 and I have seen two people vote nearly at once and hammer and then go "oops!" afterwards (as stupid as it sounds, it's been done). So I'm going to claim, and whatever you guys want to talk about, go ahead.

Just a vanilla townie here. Can't say much else. I still think Reck, Soc and maybe vollkan are the scummy and that the two masons are just fucking full of themselves with their obv-no-lynch status due to their mason claim.

Nobody Special, why did you go along with what Nikanor said?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Soc as in hito. I'm so used to him just sitting around in my games.

[Nikanor]

There is absolutely no conceivable pro-town reason that a person would have for telling somebody, let alone somebody that one apparently knows to be one's confirmed town Mason partner whose insights would presumably be of immense value, to not bother reading the thread. Combined with the "love your mason buddy" at the end (it's strange to tack on at the end, and looks either like he is reminding us of the mason claim as an excuse for a crappy post or is alerting Nobody Special to the claim), this post, which has no pro-town motivation, is perfectly in line with what I would expect from them if they were in fact scum pulling the gambit that's been raised before.

I'm just trying to get more votes on my suspect.
Anyway reading the thread brb.

[vollkan]

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

Why?

(Also, in pre-emption, I am not implying that I am in favour of lynching the masons today)

We still need more input from the replacements.

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

I don't recall anyone saying "let's lynch the claimed masons".

But there has been some sentiment against them stated.

Do you agree with the sentiments expressed against them?

UT, I can see where he's coming from. Lay off of Zach, I know what he means. Look at vollkan's post about the masons going "haha, we're masons, don't bother reading, lynch this guy". Don't you think that vollkan is actually considering putting a vote onto Nikanor?

Didn't you just endorse everything I said against Nikanor? So, by your own logic, doesn't that mean that you are equally as likely to be considering a vote on Nikanor?

There is absolutely no conceivable pro-town reason that a person would have for telling somebody, let alone somebody that one apparently knows to be one's confirmed town Mason partner whose insights would presumably be of immense value, to not bother reading the thread. Combined with the "love your mason buddy" at the end (it's strange to tack on at the end, and looks either like he is reminding us of the mason claim as an excuse for a crappy post or is alerting Nobody Special to the claim), this post, which has no pro-town motivation, is perfectly in line with what I would expect from them if they were in fact scum pulling the gambit that's been raised before.

I'm just trying to get more votes on my suspect.

How is it better for the town if your apparently confirmed town mason partner blindly follows you rather than making up his own mind?

[DemonHybrid]

I only said I know where he's coming from.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

Why?

(Also, in pre-emption, I am not implying that I am in favour of lynching the masons today)

Mostly because masons are a problem for scum, regardless of how they may look in any situation. I think it would be foolish to lynch the claimed masons today because if they are masons (And I think they almost certainly are.) we're essentially solving scum's problem for them.

We still need more input from the replacements.

I'm not interested in lynching the claimed masons today, period.

I don't recall anyone saying "let's lynch the claimed masons".

But there has been some sentiment against them stated.

Do you agree with the sentiments expressed against them?

The thing that you and DH consider scummy about Nikanor... eeeeeeeh. (I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't move me that much.)

I do agree that they're not posting nearly enough content.

I highly doubt the claim is fake because BOTH scum would have to survive through this day phase AND the next 2 in order to win, and a single one of them dying at any time and flipping scum damns the other instantly.

[Nikanor]

I just finished page six. This game makes me want to take a stroll in a cemetery at night on Halloween with lots of ghouls to eat me alive.
Anyway, here's where I'm at right now, for reference:
Alduskkel - Neutralish, leaning town. I'll read hito's case once I get there and see what that does for me.
DemonHybrid - Scum
Reckamonic - Probtown
hitogoroshi (replaced Socrates) - Leaning town
Untrod Tripod - Leaning town
vollkan - Leaning scum
Zachrulez - Obvtown

How is it better for the town if your apparently confirmed town mason partner blindly follows you rather than making up his own mind?

If he blindly follows me, he votes for DH. That is good for the town. You should probably do that, too.

Why is Alduskkel not voting for anybody?

[vollkan]

I highly doubt the claim is fake because BOTH scum would have to survive through this day phase AND the next 2 in order to win, and a single one of them dying at any time and flipping scum damns the other instantly.

Right. But if they are scum, we can reasonably expect that they won't die other than by lynching. This makes it a kind of "Burn the person suspected of being a witch to see if they are a witch" situation. Masons aren't a threatening role for scum and the fact that the mason play has been scummy creates a ripe environment for scum to adopt the "Keep them away and play the WIFOM game" strategy.

[hitogoroshi]

The ISO you've all been waiting for:

ISO SPECTACULAR SPECIAL EDITION: DEMONHYBRID, THE GUY THAT POSTS TOO MUCH AND MAKES ME WANT TO SHIT IN MY BRAIN

I know this took far too long for a single ISO, but seeing this massive blob of stuff just killed my will to live.

First, a personal request. Please don't do the inline bold in someone elses quote block. You don't need to quote their entire post again and make me read the whole section before reading your response. It's difficult to read, it throws a lot of redundant information out, and it's less clear then quoting the bit you need to reference and then responding out of quotes. Yes, it takes a little more typing on your end, but medium amounts of easy to read content > > large gobs of hard to read shit.

Extremely active early game. Too active. Now, to be clear, I don't mean too active as in "scummy", too active as in "anti-town." There's a subtle distinction, that being that it's a null tell (actually a weak town tell, in my experience.) It's obvious that posting content = good, and it's all too easy to fall into the trap of posting more content = better. That's not true, though. First off, there's diminishing marginal utility of more posts from someone. An easy way to think about it is, if you make one post a week, that will have whatever you think was most important for that week. If you have two posts, it will be the two most important things, etc. If you're posting sixty times in a week, say, it's very likely that a lot of that is garbage. In addition, players post less when they're feeling overwhelmed, and that is bad for the game as a whole. Still, I've yet to find a single scum player that will do this deliberately to achieve this effect on the town. Townies do it because they think it's the right thing, and scum do it because they think it would be the right thing if they were town.

His post 34 is much more readable then his inline quote posts. Just had to point that out!

The first thing I really feel I can pick up and run with is his post 47. Specifically, this line:

By the way, until you link examples of why you think Zach is town, I'll assume that it's buddying, because, once again, there's absolutely no reasoning to back it.

What the hell is this? You asked Reckamonic questions, they were answered. Then you call him out for not providing REASONING? Not everything is a case. It's polite to answer questions, but it's completely, stupidly unrealistic to expect someone to write a "case" regarding every thought they express. A good rule of thumb is that if you ask a question, you should expect as much effort from the answer as it took you to write the question. Assuming it's buddying because he didn't try to convince YOU of his town read is comical.

From DH's post 50:

There is a previous button, use it because that last part Is undecipherable

Oops, I don't really care, deal with it. I mess up tags sometimes.

This is a weak town-tell - scum have to be more careful about their posts, but only weak because it's easy for scum to fake. That being said, it's also a you-ruin-games-for-town-regardless-of-alignment-tell. DH, quick rule for you: If you don't care enough to preview it and clean up tags, no one cares enough to read it.

His vote for shotty in 92 smells a little off to me. He's been proclaiming that's scummy, this is scummy, everywhere a scummy scummy for the whole game, and yet he's willing to just slide on the policy lynch? It's even worse that he did the scummy thing I ragged on in the Aldus iso: creating an objective, transparent lynch mechanic. Epitome of a safe vote in "hey man, I SAID I'd vote him by midnight."

His post 101 is a power role suggestion/hint. If he claims a PR, this'll make it feel more legit. If he claims VT, this is a little scummy, because it's hinting at a PR for no reason.

Ooh, he brings up horror for the first time basicially ever! One huge scum tell is when people completely ignore each other. Sure enough, he only brings up horror now that the wagon on him is the largest.

His post 103 absolutely screams bus. Unvotes shotty because of the meta links. You said earlier that shotty has a track record of poor arguments, which would imply that you already had similar meta knowledge. Seems like you're trying to gracefully exit the shotty wagon to bus horror before it's too late.

His post 111 says:

Anyway, going purely on minimal communication with horror, the people who he's lightly questioned or just blatantly ignored are Scott Brosius, Alduskkel and Maemuki. He's had some sort of meaningful conversation with everyone else.

DH prides himself on answering every question posed to him, or so he says. There isn't a SINGLE question from horrordude posed to him that he responded to in his ISO, and yet DH did not put himself on this list. What meaningful conversation did DH have with horror? My guess is none, and that he's deliberately left himself off the list. Won't know for sure until the horror iso though.

His suspects in ISO 115 end up being "I suspect the lurkers who will poorly defend themselves of being scum." This can be confirmed with him following up with "Lets lynch her and get it over with and not dick around with a replacement." And his ISO 124 is a fantastic maelstrom of scummy. In his post voting for her, he criticized the lack of information they had on her. But then, when pressed, he responded that he's "pretty sure we've got scum". The slot is looking scummy, so it should be done in right now, he says - but the scummy thing about it was the LACK of information.

How is that a bad thing if Mae's pretty much incriminated at this point?

random quote of one of his posts that expresses the sentiment. Also bonus value, he's voting for Scott right now, because they're "equal". Severe dissonance between the scuminess it takes to want to lynch without replacement and the scuminess that he supposedly found in the Mae slot.

He starts to get really goddamn cocky tearing apart the VI. Pretty nullish, could be a town player feeling happy after their scumteam claimed mason or a scum player showing the typical scum swagger. Keeps on kicking the easy target over and over and over.
We can just power-glide through the next few pages. It's clear what's happening, has scum and town motivations, etc. We pick up with this at 205:

If the game completely stalls, lynch all lurkers?

DH posts a lot, if he can forward the idea that 'if they don't post kill them instead of me', of course he'd want to. It's a lazy vote. The quick switch to Reck is a little unsettling. The Reck vote is better than the Socrates vote, but that being said, why vote for Socrates if you're not pushing a scum-don't-want-a-replacement case like you were with Mae?

Post 244 Is another power role foreshadow with “I'm claiming if I still have the most votes.”

And in 251 he claims vanilla. Brilliant. Real vanillas don't continually bring up that they're going to claim, skip.

ACTION PACKED CONCLUSION:

DH's early game play is weakly town. He gets scummier and scummier as the game goes on, particularly the connection between him and horror, which is textbook avoidance and busing. His huge tirade against shotty makes plenty of sense as both town and scum. His hinting at a PR claim and subsequent vanilla claim is scummy. It's generally a good idea to lynch claimed VT's anyway because if you don't it creates an environment where scum players wagon, force out claim, switch.

I'm going to skip alphabetical order and do my horror iso next. If I find what I suspect I'll find – that is, horror completely ignoring DH – I'll vote DH right here and now. If I don't, I'll be in a weird spot with a closing in deadline and very few iso's done. I'll have to wing it from my impressions from the horror iso if I find they clear DH as town. Honestly, if horror iso gives a null impression on DH-scum I'll probably vote him anyway because a.) there are scumtells on DH beyond his connection with horror and b.) his playstyle of “post a lot, including insignificant back and forth reply wars, but without so much as taking the time to keep his tags working” is a detriment to town, so it's a decent lynch regardless of alignment.

Taking a break because I literally wrote that ISO instead of sleeping. Be back sometime today.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP: Also, as is probably clear from reading this, while I said I would read all of his posts as a lump sum, I ended up reading only his early game as a lump before going back to my usual linear. Yes, I probably jump around a lot, but I simply couldn't read his first four pages and try to write something cohesive. Linear stream of consciousness is what I know, and while it may be hard to read when it's on someone with this many posts, it proved impossible to keep it all straight in my head and form a general opinion off of multiple pages of writing. I compromised by throwing in some "we can skip ahead" lines at parts when I could get away with not commenting, so I could try to de-wall the post without having to go read a lump and generalize off of it.

[DemonHybrid]

This whole game is a misrep fest.

It's clear from your attitudes that I'm not going to get through to you guys, so do what you want. I'll try to answer hito without having a brain aneurysm.

The fact that you're even mentioning how much I'm posting is fucking bullshit and a misrep. The amount someone posts

is

a

complete

NULL TELL.

If I have to teach anyone anything about mafia, it's to deal with the fucking TIMING of posts, not the AMOUNT of them.

Here's a tip as well: I was in 7 games earlier on, realizing that I posted messed up tags is not a big deal. I can't believe the amount of laziness that most players in mafia are subjected to. They ask for cases to be posted like 50 times because they don't read. They freak out when someone messes up a tag. I have more important stuff to do with my time than to sit here bent over backwards making sure every post is 100% readable.

My shotty "policy lynch" thing was before I found him legit scummy, and a push to try to get him to post actual legitimate logic. Which he has failed (contradiction after contradiction). He has logic, but it's really bad logic, so I decided to go after him for being scummy, not because he was a VI (hence the whole argument that vollkan and I had).

My vote on horrordude and my not-mentioning of him before that looks iffy, but I didn't really take a good look at him (plus, since he was with me against Zach, who I saw was scummy at the time, I didn't really find anything wrong with his play), but his logic has gotten consistently scummy after a few votes had been placed on him. Don't know what else I can say about this, but no. It's not a bus.

Horrordude, to my recollection, didn't ask me a thing.

Everything that I've said about Maemuki has been consistent. I've said everything that I've needed to say about that. Which I, of course, find completely legit. Again, look at the list of "best replacements" for the scummy noms. Yes, let's have this happen this fucking game.

However, that's all nullified now, and a moot point, since the mason claim and people actually taking their spots.

Me wanting to start to lynch the lurkers (I.E: Your spot and others) has nothing to do, again, with the amount I post. Another complete misrep.

You not wanting to even pay attention to the fact that I claim shows that you don't care about information, or who gets lynched. Plus, another misrep, because I can't claim something that I'm not.

So, go ahead and lynch me, I guess. Then you'll either laugh, and then get lynched because your slot has done nothing but tunnel me and give a free pass to shotty (like a fucking robot) or smack your face against the desk because you've misrepresented me so hard.

[DemonHybrid]

And it seems like you've found ALLLLL of this evidence! I'm totally scummy!

But wait.....you aren't voting me after all of this "incriminating" evidence. I mean, I already claimed. But you don't care about that, you'd rather see me dead. And you're waiting to vote. Hmmmmm.

[Zachrulez]

I highly doubt the claim is fake because BOTH scum would have to survive through this day phase AND the next 2 in order to win, and a single one of them dying at any time and flipping scum damns the other instantly.

Right. But if they are scum, we can reasonably expect that they won't die other than by lynching. This makes it a kind of "Burn the person suspected of being a witch to see if they are a witch" situation. Masons aren't a threatening role for scum and the fact that the mason play has been scummy creates a ripe environment for scum to adopt the "Keep them away and play the WIFOM game" strategy.

I disagree, masons are in fact very threatening to scum, and that threat grows the longer masons are allowed to live. (They control a larger pro-town bloc of the voting the smaller the game gets.)

[DemonHybrid]

And it seems like you've found ALLLLL of this evidence! I'm totally scummy!

But wait.....you aren't voting me after all of this "incriminating" evidence. I mean, I already claimed. But you don't care about that, you'd rather see me dead. And you're waiting to vote. Hmmmmm.

To clarify, I wrote this in response to you saying you're waiting for the horrordude ISO. If you had already cemented the fact that, from my ISO, you think it's a bus, then you waiting to see his ISO is just you saying "hey, look at me, I'm doing something town! give me points!". Hence my point.

[Zachrulez]

Basically, they are either scum and will continue to live through to endgame no matter what, (And will still autolose regardless of WHEN we lynch them. (Unless there's more than 3 scum which is unlikely in a mini normal.)) they are masons and scum will keep them alive for WIFOM as you are claiming as a possibility, (Which I think is a risk they won't take if the mason claim is true.) or the problem will sort itself out and the scum will target the masons.

All of the above is a good reason not to lynch the claimed masons today. Getting the flips of other players will tell us a lot about the validity of the claim. (For instance if we lynch scum, they are confirmed.)

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and here. I'll give out a scumlist.

Most town to scum

Nikanor/Nobody Special, Zach, Untrod, vollkan, Reck/hitogoroshi

[Zachrulez]

So does that mean you believe the mason claim now or do 839 and 841 still stand as concerns to you?

Or do you tend to believe they are likely masons and said actions simply concern you?

[DemonHybrid]

So does that mean you believe the mason claim now or do 839 and 841 still stand as concerns to you?

Or do you tend to believe they are likely masons and said actions simply concern you?

You got it.

[DemonHybrid]

As in: That's what claimed masons but really scum would DO, but doesn't necessarily make them scum. I'm still willing to believe they're just full of themselves and anti-town.

[Zachrulez]

As in: That's what claimed masons but really scum would DO, but doesn't necessarily make them scum. I'm still willing to believe they're just full of themselves and anti-town.

I got it.

Also we're getting into a deadline crunch now.

I think scum is in Hito, Untrod, and Vollkan.

Hito I admittedly suspect because of Soc's actions before replacement, but as it is, I'd be happy to lynch either him or Untrod today, and Vollkan if neither of those are possible.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, you know what,

Unvote, Vote: hitogoroshi

because Soc's slot has been prime suspect for days now, Reck is still scummy but has laid off and explained his peace with the shotty wagon (although it's unbelievable to me at the moment, but he at least explained0, and hito's last post just screams of him trying to complete and easy lynch to go along with the consistency of Soc. He literally just found 3 or so paragraph post worth of misreps and nulltells.