Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[RayFrost]

ell oh ell @ PE.

This time I won't be replacing a scummy as hell player, though, so expect to get caught, scum!

@ Skill - Why yes indeed, another game with me. This time, I'm town, how about you?

@ Furry bolt - Yo, nice to meet yah again!

I don't recognize any of the newbies (other than skill), which is good.

Means my epic fail will teach them how

not

to play mafia

Anyway, this is my confirmation post.

I'd also like to do my standard SE introduction that I'm supposed to do but keep forgetting to do...

[Intro] Hello everybody, I am your friendly neighborhood semi-experience (SE) player.

Basically, I'm this guy who has played some games and has some experience, and I'm meant to help you newbies along in your development processes.

I've had some previous experience with players thinking the moderator sets the roles manually and will set more experienced players on each side, blah, blah, blah.

The standard for setting roles is to use random.org and let it generate who gets what role.

Some good information to have (standard mafia terminology) is as follows...

OMGUS, WIFOM, Bussing, Mafia Etiquette, Lynch-or-Lose, Random Vote, and the Random Questioning Stage

These are all links to (what I feel to be) rather important information.

It's recommended reading for those of you that are new.

And I know I jumped the gun on this (heh) by doing it in confirmations, but eh. I felt like it.[/intro]

[RayFrost]

Oh, last thing I forgot to mention!

I may be here to guide you, but I'm also working towards my win condition (obv, I'm town), so yeh.

I'm just another player, except I give advice along the way about theory and stuffs.

[RayFrost]

I don't know if i wanna believe that XD

Why!? Why do you turn away from my love? *heart-stricken pose*

Example of what

not

to do:

say that you aren't the cop/doc/etc at the beginning of the game before confirmations.

Never give scum info on who the PRs aren't... unless you are claiming at l-1 or something.

[RayFrost]

Naaah. I have to go to the newbie queue every now and again to do my /in x8.

We are allowed to have a lot of pre-game chit chat if we so choose.

Usually, the mod starts the game when all but one player has confirmed.

[RayFrost]

prana na na na na na na

prana na na na na na na~

/referencebadjoke

[RayFrost]

Reference to a slow-mo sound effect, which was used in the Million Dollar Man (as well as other places, I believe).

The specific sound effect goes...

wana na na na na

wana na na na na

But anyway... yeah.

Decent avatar. Not as cool as mine, though.

[RayFrost]

Very Depp.

Y'get it, y'get it? Oh Sild!

Yeah, yeah. You still aren't cool enough to join me.

Every time you use the word cool in my presence, you are, in fact, making a bad prun.

[RayFrost]

Vote: Apathy

Too often have I seen Player Apathy ruin games.

Obv, Apathy needs to be killed off!

[RayFrost]

Heh, either or.

As long as I know you are referencing me and it isn't offensive/degrading/etc, I'm fine with just about any nickname.

Ones I've seen before are as follows...

RF

Ray

Ray of the Frost

FrostRay

Frosty

Tiger

Mr. Frost

[RayFrost]

Question: If we hit 5 votes does the day automatically end?

It ends when the mod sees it and claims the day is over.

Until that point, it is twilight, in which all but the lynched may talk.

[RayFrost]

Kismod: would you mind fixing the quote tag?

MOD: Tada!

[RayFrost]

Sooo...do we have any suspicions to start the day off?

Vote Apathy with meh and be a cool kid!

[RayFrost]

unvote, vote: PranaDevil

jmurph's clothing is the height of fashion, so everything else about them is fashionable as well.

You are obviously scum trying to get rid of the cool kids!

[RayFrost]

Hoo rah, two questions!

Scum tells are quite often situational.

Main things to look at are the reasoning people put forth, who they vote, why they vote, WHEN they vote, who they attack, who they defend, the reasoning with which they do so, and when they do it.

Also look at consistency in posting style, etc.

Also try to think of the

motives

behinds things.

And yeh, your SRQS is decent.

[RayFrost]

Also, jmurph is obv carmen sandiego.

Just sayin'

[RayFrost]

Also, Duck Devil is better than Dick Devil.

[RayFrost]

We don't - carmen sandiego is obv town.

[RayFrost]

Aha, I have been waiting for this!

vote: RayFrost

You asked me a question, if I was town or not, I suppose in a friendly gesture. However, it seemed like the true purpose of your question was to find out if I had a power role or not.

You knew I was cop last game, so I was likely to compare my present role to my previous role. You even went as far as to cover your role fishing with playful joke stuff, so people wouldn't notice.
And you even put that I shouldn't say "I am not cop", to make your intentions less conspicious.

Hahahah.

Problem with your logic, it requires I could read your mind to know you would make that comparison and reaction!

Obviously, you are scum that is stretching to come up with a good reason to vote me off now that I'm town!

You fear my mighty scumhunting!

unvote, vote: skill006

You already said you aren't cop, and I was saying that was a bad idea, so I was, in fact, teaching you from your own mistake!

[RayFrost]

@ Skill006 - Are you as good as James Bond (007) at taking down bad guys?

Nope. I stink at taking down bad guys, even when I know their alignment.

^--- can't make good cases / doesn't know when NOT to counterclaim.

[RayFrost]

roflcopter has only one completed game of me-town and another of me-sk.

I was too busy to do anything in the me-sk game.

Me-town game had me getting night killed as town and him-scum getting lynched, so yeh. His words make me lol.

And I'm town this game, so yeh.

[RayFrost]

Recently finished me-mafia game

Recently finished me-town game with me dead N1

Recently finished me-town game with me dead the night before lylo

[RayFrost]

Hyperactivity is a scumtell?

[RayFrost]

Eh, I don't know when to counterclaim either.

I can make good cases, though.


sometimes.

[RayFrost]

Yeah, but kelyn I'm not about to jump lynch someone because they "might" pose a problem. However he does seem to be switching votes very fast does our Ray. Almost too fast for my liking.

FoS: RayFrost

Reasoning I'd be scummy from this is as follows.

"Ray is changing votes around very fast."

"This is a sign of anxiety and nervousness."

"Scum would be nervous."

"Ray is scum."

Only problem with this is... I could be doing what I'm doing to cause what I'm causing. /genius

[RayFrost]

He's got three games if you include an ongoing.

But talking about ongoing games is a taboo thing to do.

[RayFrost]

Sweet, three votes already.

New record.

Anyway, your case is bad in that I'm blatantly OMGUSing, and I know I'm doing it.

But I wanted your case to happen, y'see. ^.^

[RayFrost]

Awww, damn.

Only two votes.

Miscounted.

[RayFrost]

To quote Zachrulez on my playstyle, a player I've played with multiple times, "you are eccentric and erratic" or something like that

[RayFrost]

To quote Panacea and WolfRamnHart "you are an awesome scumhunter" or soemthing like that

[RayFrost]

Anyway, I'm going to start calling out scumteams if there isn't a lot of discussion while I'm sleeping (which is about 8.5 hours from now)

[RayFrost]

Oh, by the way...

I'm qualified to be an IC. Technically ^.^

I /in as SE due to confidence issues and the like.

[RayFrost]

Defensiveness is not a scumtell.

Unless you have meta that determines the difference for the player in question between over/under defensive (them being scum) or just defensive (them being town).

You lack that meta on my personality, so you can't really say for yourself whether or not this is my standard of play or if this is a town/scum tell.

[RayFrost]

Mhmmm...

You really should read the games I've provided. Quite nice reads, really.

Anyway, shouting out a scumteam of skill006 and pran, any betters? Returns are 2:1!

[RayFrost]

My rate of posting is so high I have the highest Post Per Day (PPD) average across the site, so yeh...

comparing my # of posts to anybody else (except, maybe, ythan) is ridiculous.

[RayFrost]

Woohoo, I have somethin' to hide because I am posting a lot!

Now back that up with a little logic, my red friend.

How does posting a lot decrease the likelihood of me getting caught if I'm scum?

[RayFrost]

Well, if we're not random anymore then I will take Prana's advice to go with gut feeling.

The PranaDevil doth protest too much, methinks.

Vote: PranaDevil

---

Defensiveness is not a scumtell.

Unless you have meta that determines the difference for the player in question between over/under defensive (them being scum) or just defensive (them being town).

[RayFrost]

@RF - Okay, here we go! (said in a mario vioce, btw)

Only problem with this is... I could be doing what I'm doing to cause what I'm causing. /genius

WIFOM. Pretty sloppy if you are truly as experienced as you say.

This time, I'm town, how about you?

but I'm also working towards my win condition (obv, I'm town), so yeh

If you are town your win condition is to find mafia, but conversely, if you are mafia, your win condition is to kill the town. Exploring the option I find most viable currently, that you are mafia, I would say your win condition would be ultimately achieved by convincing the town that you are one of them, and using that stance to push lynches on other innocents. So far (im only quoting as far as p.1) you have tried twice to convince us that you are town.... And you know how it goes: repeat something enough and people start to believe it.

Sooo...do we have any suspicions to start the day off?

Vote Apathy with meh and be a cool kid!

A silly harmless joke, or a backhanded attempt to start an early bandwagon? Could be translated as either.

Obviously, you are scum that is stretching to come up with a good reason to vote me off now that I'm town!

This is the 3rd person you've accused of being scum within 2 pages.

How does posting a lot decrease the likelihood of me getting caught if I'm scum?

Posting a lot of valuable information would make me lean towards you being town, however you've mostly been switching votes based on nothing, acting defensively, and randomly accusing people with no logic or backing. If you were making a lot of posts saying "x player is scum AND HERES WHY" maybe I would be less suspicious of you, but as for right now:

FoS: RayFrost

Also

You fear my mighty scumhunting

A lot of people fear the boogeyman, closet monsters, and Santa Claus too but that doesnt mean they exists, either

The first bit isn't really WIFOM.... I basically say that I'm doing what I'm doing (vote switching, OMGUSing, etc) to cause what I'm causing (discussion, votes, people taking stances, etc). Not exactly WIFOM in that it's not something where anybody could go "well that's what he'd WANT me to think, when, in truth, he's doing none of this deliberately!" and have it really be following some good reasoning.

Me saying I'm town doesn't really do anything to convince people that I am. :/ That's a really weak bit of reasoning in that individuals can say they are town all day and night if they so choose. It doesn't guarantee their alignment. At best, it's a tell that's like defensiveness: it requires meta.

Bandwagons are good, not bad, so yeah... ummm... either or makes it not a bad thing, soooo... :/

Oh dear, you caught me. I've been attacking/voting people at random. obv, I'm scum for attacking/voting people so much.

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted, so yeah. Ummm... actually do so next time or don't freakin' quote it.

I've already covered the defensiveness bit, so you using that against me is still rather pathetic and weak.

Switching votes based off of nothing at the beginning of the game

is not really a scumtell considering that it is actually part of the RVS

. Yeah, shocker ain't it?

Randomly accusing people is a great way to start off a game. You either get attacked based off of terrible reasoning (why lookie here!) or you end up with a bandwagon from which you pressure the person, get reactions, get discussion, get to analyze votes, etc, etc, etc.

I don't have enough evidence at this point in time to say "Person B is scummy for XKCD reasons" so I'm instead going for this magical thing called

reaction hunting

(ask about it if you don't know what it is, kiddies.)

Aaaaannnnddd... how is insulting me really worth being put into a post? :/

that seems to me to be an attempt to discredit me without actually putting any real effort into it.

The majority of your points are ones that aren't actually new (in fact, the only really new points are the fact you are trying to come up with a signal:noise ratio argument against me, which you failed, and the attempt to make me seem scummy for wanting a bandwagon/joking).

Your points, mostly, are a restatement of the arguments everybody else in the thread has made. Either that or they are original but just as bad.

So yeah.

concentrate and try again.

[RayFrost]

jmurph is prob. town.

The latest vote on the wagon is scummy.

unvote, vote: PranaDevil

You basically piggyback the reasoning put forth by others without putting your own analysis into play.

Contrasting this with how you've been putting your own reasoning in play with your other votes, this seems like opportunistic bandwagoning in hopes of a lynch before much discussion happening.

[RayFrost]

Actually, I agreed more with what others had said, what's more to say than "yeah, good point well made"? If agreeing with others views was a scum tell then either everyone would be scum, or nobody would ever have more than a single vote on them.

As I said before, scumtells are situational.

In this case, you pretty much mindlessly voted with the other two, stated "I agree with them," didn't add anything to the discussion, didn't give your opinions on other things, and you also use what I feel to be language to help you backpedal as need be ("

somehwat

liking the idea of...").

Your vote contains very little content, makes your stance mild rather than solid despite the vote (Scum keeping the option of running away from the wagon open), and overall has very little that can really be considered helpful.

It's taking a timid stance while voting, which is a form of fencesitting while creating a thin smokescreen to hide that fact by voting.

Also, Fuzzy's case can be broken down into "I don't think jmurph has posted enough content."

This is a rather weak case.

The possible reasoning to find this null is virtually endless. It's a load of newbie tell rather than scum tell.

jmurph could be nervous town that is unsure of how to scumhunt / doesn't know that dying is okay for a townie.

otoh, jmurph could be nervous scum that is trying to stay under the radar.

jmurph could be town that operates like an old T.V. where it takes a while to start up but works fine after that, which would make jmurph a slow-to-get-there scumhunter, but still a scumhunter.

jmurph could be scum that doesn't know how to fake scumhunting.

Now, let's look at what this covers.

It covers the possibility that jmurph is new.

Nothing else.

The case is bad.

The wagon is bad.

[RayFrost]

and how many "good" wagons turn up day one? most of the time it winds up being an accidental townie lynch anyway, at least if someone gets some pressure on them then they might reveal something. jmurph has been very quiet, perhaps some pressure might push her to talking more.

I've been part of wagons that lynched scum day 1. In fact, I've

started

wagons that lynched scum day 1. (read one of the games I was talking about, scum got lynched D1 cuz of me awesome scumhunting skillz, and I got NKed night 1 cuz of me awesome scumhunting skillz)

Using "we are likely going to lynch a townie anyway" as reasoning to let any old lynch go through / avoid scumhunting is such terribad reasoning that it really reinforces my vote on you.

You are essentially saying that any lynch is good, regardless of who is lynched or the reasoning behind it. This is extremely bad and I can only really see scum motivation from it, since it shows apathy toward the quality of the case as long as the lynch goes through. This kind of logic is what scum would likely have considering that, as long as it isn't them or their buddy, scum don't care who dies.

Wagons are great, but intending to lynch somebody based off of such a terrible case is not.

The wagon's way too fast in growth to be town-only, imo.

It started less than two pages ago and yet there are already three votes.

"Good" wagons turn up all the time on Day 1.

[RayFrost]

EBWOP (accidentally hit submit before being finished):

"Good wagons turn up all the time on Day 1. The jmurph wagon is not an example of this, and bad wagons are

bad

.

[RayFrost]

You really shouldn't be saying your role unless one of the SE's or the IC says you should role claim (which they shouldn't only do if you get one vote away from a lynch and are going to be hammered)

[RayFrost]

Hahahaha.

If it is often a mislynch on D1 and you are resigning to that fact, you are essentially giving free reign of lynching a townie.

It becomes

okay

to lynch a townie rather than to lynch scum by default of "resigning" yourself to that.

I'm not really putting many words in your mouth, here.

You say it's often a townie lynch D1 as an excuse to get a bye on your behavior, which is scummy.

Looking at it from you-scum, you would want any lynch to be good regardless of who or why.

Just saying "it's often a townie lynch" as a defense is about as good as me saying "but I'm a guy!" as a defense against you voting me :/

Your reasoning for voting me is flimsy at best, since it can be summed up in "i dun like u" covered by a thin film of BS.

[RayFrost]

As an honestly confused person, is stating that I'm town role-claiming? When I've played, claiming an important role (i.e. cop, doctor, etc.) was frowned upon, but saying you're town is a valid defense.

Just want to know so I don't make the same mistakes in the future.

"townie" is a role.

So you saying "I'm a townie" is saying that you are vanilla town, as in not a power role.

If you are, in fact, a townie, you should not claim cop/doctor, but you shouldn't be claiming at all at this point.

Saying you are town is about as good a defense as saying "but u guys should trust me because I say so," which isn't very convincing.

[RayFrost]

Sweet, you are voting me, and I'm voting you.

/twiddles thumbs

[RayFrost]

Apathy has ~1 post that involves a case, so they can't be tunneling.

Not enough posts to have been doing so.

[RayFrost]

aaaaaand I love how the defense I put forth is ignored by skillz0r, which means skillzzzz isn't reading the entire thread or didn't think that the defense was worthwhile but is too lazy to say that.

[RayFrost]

You! quit trying to make it seem like people have claimed or not claimed. I don't think anyone has claimed anything yet. You're so worried about everybody's roles, it's making you look scummy.

Yah, sorry, I just don't like seeing

claims

happening prematurely.

TOWNIE is a common term for VT, so my thinking that was a claim is perfectly logical.

I feel that things like that will grate on my nerves, so I figure out why, and I realize it's because it

seems like a claim because many claims are worded almost exactly the same

, which makes me go into the lesson of don't claim prematurely.

[RayFrost]

I've only finished around 30.

[RayFrost]

I've only finished around 30.

O_O; That's prob. more than our actual IC...I don't understand why you be an SE. You seem more than confident enough in your ability.

my ability to play mafia != my ability to teach newbies / be patient / not get annoyed / etc

[RayFrost]

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Reading the paragraph below the one you wrote to me, I realize the main purpose of your post. Sorry for white knighting yah, but I found a quick bandwagon based off of something like that was bad/scummy/etc. :/

[RayFrost]

Oh, and jmurph is female, not male.

[RayFrost]

My comments on "this time I'm town, how 'bout you" and the like were jokes, and taking them out of context is blatant misrepresentation.

It is a misrep in that you are quoting them out of context to make it seem like I said that in all seriousness as a defense/etc from serous accusations, which I didn't.

Not only does that severely weaken your case, but it also makes me prone to Not Like You (tm).

I didn't attack you at all in my post, again, misrepresentation of my statement that your

attacks

were weak. I say nothing about

you

. That's strawmanning my argument via misrep by saying I'm using ad hom when I'm not.

Bandwagoning is fine.

A quick bandwagon that grows from no votes to three votes in less than three pages with virtually no discussion about it or analysis given by those voting is not fine.

There are such things as pressure wagons, which are fine, and bandwagons to lynch, which, assuming good logic, are fine.

The logic behind the bandwagon to lynch on jmurph was terrible (I saw it as a to-lynch, though fuzzy has corrected me on that).

Me saying I'm town was in the joking phase of the game, where I was jovial.

Using my being joking as a scumtell is really bad, unless you are saying I'm serious, in which case you are misrepresenting me AGAIN.

If you want an explanation for my defending, let me show it to you this way...

Bob: U R IS SCUMZ0R!!!!!!11!one! *gives reasoning*

Joe: I R IS NOT SCUMZ0R!!!!11!!21one! *gives reasoning*

This is defending. Fully fine.

Bob: U R IS DEFENSIVE SO U R IS SCUMZ0R!!!112123412!!!ofen1!

Joe: lulfayl, defensiveness is r not scummz0rsy

Joe is correct, Bob is using a bad argument, so Joe is right, Bob is wrong, but Bob continues the attack on this.

My defending myself is to whatever degree I feel is necessary to defend myself.

My defending others when I think they are town isn't scummy.

If I didn't defend a town read, that would actually be something you could call me out on.

On the devil one, I worded that improperly. I didn't put any words in his mouth, though I did go to the logical conclusion of his words as an extension of what I saw in his logic, not what he actually said. He seems to be misunderstanding due to how I said it for me saying he said that

explicitly

when it was, in fact, logically inferred by myself.

the getting reactions point is bad.

Did you even bother checking the meta I deliberately gave you guys? :/

I gave you recently finished me-town and me-scum games for you to analyze for yourselves to make meta arguments if you so chose.

I'm actually aware of very little of my meta beyond the fact reaction fishing is my bread and butter early in the game.

Also note that I have claimed

town

but not

townie

, which are different.

Town is an alignment.

Townie is slang for VT/Vanilla Townie, which is a role.

The difference of a couple letters changes the entire message.

[RayFrost]

Looking back, I don't like how fuzzy had no comments/questions/etc for apathy.

Deliberately leaving a player out of something like that makes me suspicious.

Callin' scum right there.

unvote, vote: fuzzylightning

HAVE AT THEE!

[RayFrost]

I may or may not be the cop, doc, or a VT. It shouldn't be something you are even speculating about publicly.

Only scum want this information, anyway. To town, it doesn't matter. You do not want to be looking for power roles as town, ever.

I also didn't realize the bandwagon was for reaction fishing (something I do quite often), so I attacked what I thought was a bandwagon to lynch somebody based off of a weak as fook case.

Can you point out how I'm flip flopping in what I'm saying (votes don't count, since I'm a guy that loves to vote switch and use my vote to back up every little thing I do)?

[RayFrost]

Redbox's stuff about skill read scummy to me.

Redbox's stuff about Prana are incorrect.

Redbox's stuff about Apathy is completely worthless.

Redbox's stuff about PE is worthless.

Redbox's stuff about Fuzzy is only somewhat worth noticing.

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a

direct

implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

Redbox's stuff about kelyn is also rather worthless.

Redbox's stuff about me is accurate, but his adding the "(SE)" bit to me and not to PE, or an IC bit to fuzzy, seems like he is trying to do an appeal to something that I'm not sure about, but it's caught my eye. His read is that I'm town, yet contrast with the jmurph comments.

Redbox's post in general is a mixture of information over analysis (PE comments, fuzzy comments), fencesitting (kelyn, fuzzy, PE), and worthless jibber jabber that doesn't say a thing about his stances (apathy, skill).

then there's the case on prana, which is misrepresentation of the stances that PD has actually taken through the game.

Misrepresentation is scummy.

IIoA is scummy.

Fencesitting is scummy.

Worthless jibber jabber meant to avoid giving stances on people is scummy.

Redbox is scummy.

unvote, vote: redbox

[RayFrost]

I'm the guy taking the most heat from that point.

I've had the most suspicion, while you, apathy, an sich haven't experienced that much, realtively.

[RayFrost]

ummm...

who here is taking the most heat? me.

"advised jmurph to stay silent while [jmurph's] partner takes the heat"

this seems to be a logical continuation for me, not some random twisting of his words to find him scummy.

It's not even my main point against him. It's a small part of the bigger picture.

The fact you are concentrating on that single part and ignoring the rest shows a bad case of tunnel vision, which is a sad infliction.

Are you, by any chance, a lamont craston alt?

[RayFrost]

*shouts* "Hey, I'm scum!!!!!! LYNCH ME NOW!"

Lamont is a guy I know from my first game of mafia evar.

I'm not bothered by people suggesting teams. It's when the logic behind them isn't good that I get bothered.

I've been called scum by far more people than you with far better cases than your own. I've come to l-1 and been less phased than you think I am from you voting me.

Seriously.

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

How in the fook would I be "rattled" by two people saying "omfg, he's scum" or similar?

Also, redbox didn't need to

state it directly

for it to be implied or inferred.

Him thinking you are scum is quite clearly denoted by him as separate.

One of my major problems that I just realized was how redbox attempted to create a solid link between myself and skill, so I guess that could've colored my inference of what he said on the matter of jmurph's buddy.

It doesn't detract from the rest of my case.

[RayFrost]

I am now at lynch-1, as in one more vote lynches me.

Great.

[RayFrost]

The hilarious thing about this wagon is 1. the ignoring of 90% of my defenses, 2. the speed at which it happened, 3. the flimsy logic used by the latest voters, and 4. the fact it boils down to how "over the top" I am when I post.

The over the top ness can be renamed as

passion

. But, eh, ignoring defenses seems to be a habit in this town already.

Let's tick off the things people are ignoring, shall we?

1. defense against apathy (read earlier posts)

2. explanation of my defending jmurph (YOU DEFEND TOWN READS FROM BEING LYNCHED IF YOU ARE TOWN)

3. defense against prana (note, jmurph, that your logic follows his almost exactly and that I've already made a post about it)

also, redbox's vote is the worst out of the bunch.

It is setting me within safe scum-hammer range, for one.

It is also saying "the other two don't like you, so you are obv scum!" It doesn't provide any real analysis as to why

he

is voting

me

more than

others

are voting me. He is, in fact, voting me because

his scum reads are voting me

.

That's the epitome of failure. You are voting with the people you think are scum.

Seriously.

WTF.

I'd also like to point out that my problem is not with you (redbox) lacking reads. It's the fact you

didn't say anything worthwhile

about some people, so I didn't know what your reads of those people even was.

A few of your conclusions were "so-and-so may or may not be scum" being the majority of your actual text about them. Your analysis is minimal.

If you had said directly you think this person has done such and such things and what your reads from them were and then said not sure, that'd be fine.

Just saying "possibly related to Jon Van Neumann?" instead of saying anything about the actual player or your read of them is

not

cool.

[RayFrost]

Kelyn has requested replacement.

Gah. Replacement needed already?

[RayFrost]

If I get lynched, the person that did the hammer vote is scum and should be lynched.

As it is, 80% of the discussion has been me defending myself and people ignoring the defenses and still calling me scummy. :/

[RayFrost]

It also prevents somebody hammering (scum if they aren't already on my wagon) without getting suspicions placed on them, which means easy mislynch where you guys have virtually no discussion that doesn't in some way relate to me.

In fact, it means the scum have the highest advantage in that they have yet to give many reads, and there will be an easy "lynch the mislynchers!" push opportunity, which means scum could quite simply dominate the lot of yah.

Just sayin'.

In addition, the fact you guys have not entertained

any

other possibilities gives you (if any of you are scum) the ability to vote just about anybody else on the wagon, since none of your reads have really been a confident "I think this person is town" read.

I would also like to point out, prana, that you are ignoring my points against redbox in that he's

voting with the people he thinks are scum

.

Why would you vote who you think the scum are voting, hmmm?

Because you don't think they are scum, and you are, in fact, scum, so you know this is an easy mislynch and hop on while contradicting logic by going with your supposed scum reads.

[RayFrost]

Eh, prana's saying I was discrediting skill when I said skill either didn't read the thread

or

didn't see the defense as worthwhile but isn't saying so.

Taking words out of my mouth, woohoo.

How about I defend myself "properly" after you explain to me, prana, what "proper" defense from a case is, since you obviously have a better handle on it than I do?

Defensiveness is not a scum tell, over-defensiveness is.

Articulate the difference or you can't use it as a tell. My explanation for my defending is

I defend myself

. There's no real defense against "omfg, you are defending yourself, explain why now!"

It's equivalent to trying to defend against somebody calling you a racist. You can't say "hey, I have [insert race here] friends" as a defense, and just saying "you are wrong" isn't sufficient.

I wasn't using calling myself town as a defense, so that's taking my words out of context deliberately.

Prana, your summary of my posts comes from the perspective of "obv scum and everything he says are lies! LIES LIKE THE CAKE, I TELL YOU!" in how I'm reading it.

also, I can't really do much scumhunting if all that's in the thread is people attacking me. Lack of variety, so I can't get a good read.

I can't say somebody is scum because all they've done is attack me (prana, apathy), so there's not much else to look at.

I can't say others are scum due to lack of posting (skill, PE, fuzzy, kelyn, jmurph).

I can say redbox is scummy due to OMGUS (voting me directly after voting him with such terrible reasoning as "the people I think are scum are voting this guy, so he's scum"), voting directly after the people he thinks to be scum, and giving little analysis of a few players that, although they haven't posted very many times, would've been able to have been given some kind of read rather than jibber jabber.

saying "blah blah blah, jibber jabber, neutral read for now" is fine. "blah blah blah jibber jabber, no read given" is not.

Also, his attempt to link me with skill is also rather scummy, imo.

[RayFrost]

Defensiveness is not a scum tell, over-defensiveness is.

Yup.

As for "proper" defense. I would say not saying people are trying to claim others are certain roles, not jumping on someone for an obvious light hearted joke outside of RVS, don't go contradicting yourself by in one breathe saying a wagon is good, then suddenly a wagon is bad, and then ignore the reason that said wagon appeared for ages until it's seen that nobody was going to back you up.

Sorry Ray, but all I can see is that I've come up with some very good points about you, and all along you've done the "yeah but you did this", which is just something you've somehow made up from nothing, such as claiming I was hunting roles, or claiming I was trying to get a lynching bandwagon rolling, or in redbox's case, claiming he was insinuating you, when there's no evidence to that, just your assumption, and subsequent attack on him for it.

PE would agree with me in the assumption. And it wasn't even the majority of my case against him.

Also, I explained the difference between wagons and already admitted that I was incorrect in my belief against the wagon (thinkint it was to-lynch when it was for pressure and admitting I was wrong on that already ahppened, so yeah)

I never said others were claiming so-and-so is a certain role.

My comment toward you was to say

don't speculate on roles

because I misunderstood what you were doing.

If I'm not allowed to attack people while I'm being attacked, then you should really get the fook off my back so I can do so.

If you would be so kind as to lay out the case point by point WITHOUT using quotes (those jumble it), I'll respond to it point by point.

With a near 100% likelihood, you'll be like "inadequate defense!" but, eh.

Also, just saying "yup" to my defensiveness/over-defensiveness comment doesn't mark the difference between them.

Also, if I haven't really defended myself, how can you make an over-defensive claim against me?

That's contradictory.

Either I've defended myself from the points (and was over-defensive in some way) or I haven't.

[RayFrost]

Eh, it's obvious prana will hammer if I ever get to L-1.

I'm Vermont, code name VT. Bow before my awesome stateliness.

[RayFrost]

Why are you continually ignoring the point that he's voting with the people he's said he thinks are scum?

It's starting to get annoying, and it shows quite clearly that you are not fully reading my posts.

I've made that point multiple times now.

You've not mentioned it multiple times now.

Seriously.

[RayFrost]

and PE, why do we actively need to spend a long time on things if current activities and actions lead us to possibly scum.

But I am getting the feel that you are trying to buy time for Ray, and not for town based reasons. I'm starting to get the feeling you're his scum buddy, and are trying to appeal to others to keep him alive, and keep discussion going, so you can find some way to take the heat off him, and so he can try twisting what others say more.

and yes, if it gets to L-1 for Ray, I will drop the hammer. I said as much earlier.

lolwut?

Guys, when you lynch me, I just want you to know that Prana is scum.

He's suspects PE based purely upon wanting more discussion.

He's twisting "wanting more discussion" into "buying time to save PE's scum buddy (me)"

Or, put another way, he is saying that any discussion past this point is completely worthless and scummy because there is no purpose in looking for the rest of the scumteam when I'm so obviously confirmed scum.

P. much say the same thing.

[RayFrost]

@ Kisomod:

Since I'm in the game, I don't even get a chance for awesome points or a box of cookies! unfair

[RayFrost]

Oh, and finally, as for redbox thinking he might be voting with scum... he also wouldn't be voting for you if he didn't think you were scum (unless he is scum obviously), but if I had 3 people I thought could be scum, I wouldn't hang back and not vote just because I might be voting with scum, I'd vote for someone I think is scum whether other scum are voting or not.

Who's not fully reading who's posts?

so... voting somebody you previously claimed a town read on while also voting with two people you've claimed to think are scum is totally not scummy at all?

Wow.

You are so completely convinced I'm scum that you are willing to give a free ride to anybody and everybody on my wagon.

Either you are doing really poorly this game or you are scum.

Or both.

I'm leaning toward both.

[RayFrost]

and Ray, wanting more discussion is good if there's not much to go on, when we have a good solid case as far as I'm concerned, more discussion just gives the scum's partner time to get him out of the hole he's dug for himself.

What's more, if I was scum, you think I'd be stupid enough to go after you so heavily knowing that I'd be prime target A "when" (I use when, as if I were scum, I'd know 100%, as opposed to the 99% I have now) you flipped town? I'd have to be a damned ballsy mafia to try that kind of tactic.

Last bit is WIFOM, so ignoring that (besides, you wouldn't be target A, you'd be target B, after the wagoners, aka, jmurph, redbox, and hwoever else jumped on as well)

If there is something going on, more discussion is still a good thing.

What has happened so far?

1 thing has happened, a wagon on me.

there's been no stances given by quite a few players, virtually no posts by a number of them, and, really, we've got like 3 pages of just us posting much.

So, let's look at what stances we'll have to go off of tomorrow...

VIRTUALLY NOTHING THAT IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO ME.

Which is to say almost nothing at all.

People can now quite easily just say their stance on me and not give any other information and get away with it because I'm the "main event" so there is no reason to comment on anything else

Also, it's early in the game and some peopl haven't even given any stances at all.

discussion is still far more valuable than you are saying.

Your stance is pretty much "no more discussion, lynch rayfrost, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch, lynch!!!!!!!!!!!!"

discussion bad, rayfrost lynch good. is your mantra.

Stifling discussion in this manner is extremely anti-town at minimum.

It helps scum easily fly under the radar and not doing a single damned thing.

[RayFrost]

So just because you previously gave somebody a town reading means that they cannot do something to become more scummy thanks to later things cropping up?

I'll keep that in mind in the future, I can be as town as I like early on, then start acting shifty and pointing out holes that aren't there, and expect to get a free ride based on the fact everyone has already said I have to be pro-town.

Please, you're reaching now, very, very, obviously.

You Are Not Getting It.

ONE thing happened, me finding him scummy.

He'd stated that he was

solidly

convinced you were scum (this is a paraphrase, and I am saying so to avoid the "puttingwordsinhismouthzomfgscummy" comment ). Next post, he votes me.

Your reads, if you actually believe in them, don't switch faster than a computer calculates 2*4.4.

Scum don't believe in any scum reads.

This is indicative of scum in redbox.

[RayFrost]

If I get lynched, after the game is over, and you are town, I have to admit that I intend to start a thread titled...

"On Tunnel Vision"

in which I ask what symptoms of tunnel vision exist and point out some that you have shown here, using your play as well as columbo/lamont's play in my first game as examples.

[RayFrost]

What you just said means you'll completely ignore the reasoning people put into voting me, when, why, how, etc, and just look at the

night killed townie

.

Your stance is basically "everything RF says is worthless even if he's town."

I'm so beyond offended that I want to express it, but I find that I don't express anger well.

More discussion gives

town

more time to solidify their reads on who is/isn't scum as well.

To be honest, I'm at the point where I

want

to be lynched.

It's so completely obvious that you are like Radivel from an off-site game that I'm just tired of it.

VOTE: RayFrost

-snip irrelevant stuff-

I'll say it now - I'm going to vote for RayFrost until he's out of the game.

[RayFrost]

Mod: Please note that I am not deliberately playing against my win-condition by wanting to be lynched. I feel that I would be detrimental to scumhunting if I remain, as I'd always be that "distraction" that caused people to not pay enough attention. I am informing you of this so you don't have to slap my wrists and such for bad play.

[RayFrost]

I don't think this is personal.

I'm just frustrated over a number of things, and this is included.

[non-germane comments removed - Ray]

Whether or not your case is bad is irrelevant to tunnel vision.

Tunnel vision is when you are focused extremely upon one player to the point that you ignore the rest of the people in the game to a large extent, dismissing a multitude of potentially scummy actions of other players because you think this person is scum and Nothing Will Convince You Otherwise (tm).

Singling an individual out is fine, but then focusing purely upon them and not really looking elsewhere is dangerous.

That's bad play, even if the person ends up as scum.

Now, I need to calm the fook down.

Be back in an hour, maybe? Calmness helps logic, though it doesn't make my instinct better (instinct votes from me are ftw).

---

spoiler, non game related

Eh, I know yo have nothing against me personally, and I wasn't attempting to say otherwise and nor do I blieve otherwise.

My frustration is born of You Are Wrong Syndrome (c). Because you are wrong.

[RayFrost]

Welcome to Jammer.

Rock out, man.

[RayFrost]

RayFrost

, is fairly active. One problem I got with him is his fairly high noise/info ratio at the start of the game. He started to become serious somewhere in the middle of the game. At a time he already had a few votes. ~scummy
The way he defended jumurph, he opposed it when the wagon got 3 votes quickly and voted the last one voting it. ~towny
AtE(I want to get lynched, I'm gonna make a topic about tunneling if you're town, the one hammering me is scum) ~leaning scum
Calling himself town over and over ~mildly scummy

Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?

You can probably get more information about my playstyle from my wiki or the games I remember linking earlier than from PE, fuzzy, or skill (PE and fuzzy have 1 finished game with me, the one with PE was me-town replacing a almost-guaranteed lynch that got through despite my efforts on D1, the one with fuzzy I have a fuzzy memory of, and the one with skill is not yet completed, though both skill and myself are dead).

Nobody in this game has enough previous experience with me to determine much about my playstyle.

And the one that hammers me so soon

is

likely scum depending upon the arguments they put forth. That's not much on the AtE realm, though I admit the rest of what you mentioned was very emotional (hence why I took a break for a while).

I've only really called myself town like... ~3 times in the joking phase of the game, so I'm not really sure how you get

MILDLY

scummy when I've done it even less often than I've done AtE, which you seem to think is less scummy despite greater occurrences. Sorry, but I'm finding the assessment of how scummy each thing is disproportional with how often or how major of a tell they are.

In fact, the town thing is something that is a rather common occurrence in games with more "experienced" players (I'm townie, are you? kind of things), and it's quite verily a null tell. There are other reasons from this that it is a null tell that I can go into (and will if you read a bit further down)

I'm not sure how you find me 'getting serious' once the game is truly going (pressure is being applied) is scummy, could you detail how my posting more seriously as more pressure increased is indicative of

scum

over, say, a relaxed and joking individual (read: null tell)?

And calling oneself town is something that is not indicative of scum or town because...

Town will call themselves town because that is what they are.

Scum will call themselves town because that is what they wish to pretend to be.

Both may

joke

about being town (since I was joking in the "I'm town, obv" and similar things, you'd have to be saying that these kinds of

jokes

are a scumtell... gl with that, btw), and that is more indicative of the player rather than their role, unless you have meta that says bob jokes when scum and is super srs busns when town.

[RayFrost]

Also, Jammer, I would like to know your reads on the other players as well as your reads on just myself, jmurph, and prana.

[RayFrost]

All of my answers will be in Bold within the quote

Also, please note that I did

not

say I thought jmurph necessarily had an experienced partner, only that she herself was inexperienced.

Saying that jmurph is inexperienced and is being counseled (paraphrase) to stay quiet is actually implying that she has a partner that

can

counsel her, which implies experience. I'd also like to point out that scum can't talk during the day, so they could not have coordinated any moves at the time jmurph was being bandwagoned, in case you didn't know that.

The fact I listed everyone but had no read on some people still seems to be causing some consternation. I tried to explain, by quoting you (Ray), that I listed everyone

because

you said leaving someone out of a list is scummy ... but now you say don't use quotes because they clutter things up and confuse you. Indeed, it confusing when you dispute your own words.

I didn't say to avoid using quotes at all, I said to not use them in

the case against me

and only toward Prana, since I felt he'd pull out 67594282 quotes, which would make his post nearly impossible to read. I would also like to point out that

you did not say you had no read

. You just didn't say anything about your read of them at all. There is a difference, like I said before, between saying "jibber jabber, I have no read on this person" and just saying "jibber jabber."

Wasn't it you who said overdefensivness is scummy? Do you mean stuff like "You voted for me and put me in danger so not only are you the worst of the scum, the next guy who votes for me is absolutely scum."

I

also said

that you have to differentiate between defensive and

over-

defensive for

that player's personality and playstyle

, which would

require meta

. lerntooreed. And your 'quotation' of me is really bad, considering

I voted you before you voted me

. Noice attempt at skewing things like that, though.

I will grant that my John von Neumann comment may have been pretty obscure. For those who don't know, he invented game theory, a very heavy duty deal requiring highly advanced mathematical training to fully grasp - those of us who took Bonehead Math ain't gonna absorb it. Sooo ... my point was that Apathy's posts are so deep that I just plain am unable to follow them, I think because I lack a strong enough foundation in the game theory aspects of this game. I think he is very smart and I will be paying a great deal of attention to his conclusions, but I have so far been unable to follow much of his logic.

You shouldn't be using jokes to mean something with content like that. Just

say

that you find his posts difficult to understand. Making an obscure reference does nothing to help the town. In the future, be straight up with what you think rather than curttailing like that.

As for the fact that I switched my vote and voted with people I had previously suspected as scummy, well, maybe I've changed my mind about them, or maybe I haven't, and maybe I think your partner may be strongly considering throwing you under the bus as a lost cause ... but your outrageous misrepresentaions of my statements and your emotionally loaded pre-emptive bullying of anyone else who might be inclined to vote to lynch you and your screaming kicking overdefensiveness (to the point of apologizing to the Mod and threatening to start a thread telling the whole world how bad the rest of us play) when you feel in danger only tend to confirm my suspicion. I figure this is the first time you have been found out so early and are having a hard time dealing with the thought that a bunch of noobs outted you.

That's a lot of maybe's. I'd also like to point out that I've been caught out on D1 before. I don't really give a fook that you guys are "a bunch of noobs" because I don't really make the difference in my mind. I don't lower my play level to 'help the poor little newbies' and nor do I raise it. I treat these games like all others, so it being a newbie game has no effect on my play. Nice attempt at making use of the fact I'm an emotional player as a way to go "omfg, he's an arrogant and egotistical dude that's freaking out because his pride is ruined by use catching him as scum!" Really solid reasoning there, mon. Except you don't know whether I'm arrogant, egotistical, or anything similar. Completely worthless point. And what you call overdefensiveness is actually emotional play, not overdefensiveness. Use your terms correctly or not at all. Last point for this paragraph... you have yet to actually state how it is a misrepresentation of your stance. You've quite effectively avoided stating what you actually meant, which gives you the ability to be vague and not using clarification in order to take whatever stance makes your opponent wrong. It's actually something that I've used in the past, but it is highly ineffective.

Let's not leave out the (perhaps convenient?) fact that somebody who wasn't participating much suddenly shows up requesting a reprieve for you- throw another monkey wrench in there.

lolwut? He wasn't requesting anything

for me

. He was requesting that the town (note: town includes both scum and the town-aligned) continue discussing for more information, which is valuable considering that the majority of the thread has essentially been a flame war between me and whoever else is attacking me. Unlike prana, who has legitimate concerns about this, you are just trying to throw as much dirt as you can by following prana's lead.

[RayFrost]

And Ray, about jammer's reads, I was going to ask that myself, but somewhere in the middle of (I think) his first post he said everyone elses reads were neutral, which I admit I only noticed on a re-check of the post.

I'm more concerned about jammer giving some analysis of the people rather than just saying "neutral" and walking off all la-di-da about it.

Neutral seems like a very easy/lazy way to avoid saying anything about the "majority of players," which is a fine way to 1) avoid stepping on toes / avoid getting noticed 2) avoid having to give an actual stance or read of the players 3) avoid giving reasoning and analysis that may be valuable

[RayFrost]

I don't believe you should be publicly pointing out scumteams when you don't have any scum flipped yet. Unless you are trying to stir discussion with it.

This is due to the fact you have no confirmed scum to make the connections with.

It also gives scum more information about your thoughts on links, which would allow them to further change their NK targets. That said, town would have very little information from speculated scumteams without scum flipping.

[RayFrost]

I have a problem with calling a vast majority of the players "neutral" without really giving any analysis of the individuals.

I feel the blanket statement gives a stance while keeping the stance as

very

easy to change.

My joking extends however long I want it to! *points finger at the cat threateningly* Now put 'em up!1!

I'm not sure how you believe I "extended the random voting stage" as contrasted with "kept joking past the RVS." I don't feel that continuing to joke indicates stretching the RVS past where it would go naturally. Could you give some examples of this?

@ Prana...

My issue is less that he's done it once, but rather that he's consistently followed you.

He voted me after I voted him and when you were pushing hardest on me.

He attacked me by following you, and has kept doing so.

He goes from "town read" to "Scum read" as you up the heat on me and jmurph votes me (opportunism) without giving original reasoning there.

My issue is also not with the lack of original reasoning and following you so much as not just saying he agrees.

He puts it forth as if he isn't just lamely agreeing with your points.

[RayFrost]

So, basically, you are setting up lynches.

consider the following sequence...

ray flips town (I will)

go after redbox

redbox flips town

scum-jmurph would loooooveeee this.

setting up lynches like this is scummy.

[RayFrost]

Prana explains it well.

You are learning, young padawan.

[RayFrost]

The way you said it kinda says the contrary.

Chalice o' backpedal, anyone?

[RayFrost]

Note how I said

if

Ray flips town, which implies both that we would have to lynch you and that you would flip town for this statement to be true. I also said that it would be enough for me to

think he's prime suspect

. Nowhere did I say that I was going to automatically lynch him if we lynched you and you turned out to be town.

As scum, you'd know I'd flip town, so imma ignore that bit.

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

[RayFrost]

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

FoS: Fuzzy

[RayFrost]

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

Not to accuse you of this...as it'd be the second time this game that this has happened...but it seems like you're trying to put words into my mouth.

*yawns and writes down a note in a little black notebook that reads 'noted is jmurph's attempt to incite a blow up / discredit me without actually putting up a real defense' before leaving to do schoolwork*

[RayFrost]

RF: Am I to infer that you think I am contradicting myself by quoting those two portions of that post?

P. much.

Would you disagree?

'I suspect you'

'I think it is most likely you are town'

those are the tl;dr versions.

[RayFrost]

So you did the FoS because you think his suspicions are wrong, not cuz you think he's scum?

...

...

...

wut?

[RayFrost]

FoS[uspicion] - saying somebody is suspect and you'd voet them if not for thinking the person you are voting is scummier

Not thinking somebody is scum - not something you'd FoS for.

It's a contradiction.

[RayFrost]

Yup, my FoS stays.

redbox is still scum, though.

[RayFrost]

You basically say 'u r putting words in mah mouth! u is scum!' as your defense (I did it in a patronizing way for emphasis).

It's less what you say than how you say it.

Keep this kind of distinction in mind.

prime suspect / most likely lynch target, same diff.

[RayFrost]

To quote a song, 'that's just the way it is, some things'll never change'

Also, just thinking I'm scum doesn't make my giving my interpretation of what you said immediately a deliberate misrepresentation meant to make what you said seem scummy. It's stating what I read from your standpoint.

your 'case' that I'm scum is really rather weak relative to prana's, or even apathy's.

tiers of strength...

prana

apathy

jmurph

redbox

there's also the issue of consistency and fencesitting.

you earlier did a bit of fencesitting and, when heat was huge on me, went 'tally ho, bandwagon! here's a bit of extra coal for the fire.' all well and good, totally fine with that.

just your coal was of low quality.

[RayFrost]

what is your opinion of redbox?

what do you think of the points made against the box drenched in blood?

[RayFrost]

so far, I like this newbie.

[RayFrost]

Lack of posting makes me sad.

mod: prod/replace check on skill/apathy/etc?

[RayFrost]

Hold on! I'm here, I'm getting a post up (taking like an hour to write, I'm so slow)

/elevator music

[RayFrost]

It is possible that skill got kidnapped by mutant ninjas from mars that have telepathic capabilities.

Or maybe she just had to do some schoolwork.

I'm leaning toward the former, personally.

[RayFrost]

Aggh, getting distracted! Don't wait for me, btw, this post isn't worth waiting for...

You are always worth waiting for, sugar.

[RayFrost]

Bad Ray, no flirting with people mid scum hunt, down boy!

And like jmurph I too am awaiting on Phaen's read, along with Skill's now. Hopefully it will bring more discussion forth.

Awww, loosen up, pops! It's possible the lovely lady and myself won't be alive come the morrow, so at least let me enjoy it while I can!

I look forward to phaen and skill reading.

I also look forward to apathy replacement happening already.

[RayFrost]

I am apathetic towards your attempt at lols.

[RayFrost]

You are always worth waiting for, sugar.

So you can make fun of me XD

No! Of course not!

It's because of how enjoyable it is to read your lovely writing, M'Lady. *bows*

Anyway, my destroying cases against me is cuz I'm awesome, not because I think the individuals are scum. being wrong != being scum. I was merely crushing the opposition underneath my ice cold boots. If I wanted my attackers to look like scum, I'd just make a case against them that isn't directly reliant upon their attacks on me (a la redbox).

The rest of the post is :goodposting:

[RayFrost]

Prana did it directly.

It's how redbox did it more than the fact he was doing it.

It was the subtle connection type where he doesn't want to be blamed for actually doing it.

[RayFrost]

@Ray - Still one of my prime suspects. He has been continuously trying to direct the range of the game.

Every time any suspicion comes up besides himself, he seems to want everyone to instantly focus on that.

It could be an honest town move, but with the

implied tone (since he wants to say that implications in wording matter) seems to be "stop looking at me, hey look over there instead".

I'm too lazy to pull out the laughingelfman.jpg image.

I believe that (as much as phaen (who is the only person to really try and defend you/attack me so far) wants to try to vindicate you), your defense from my original points was weak. I will admit that 80% of my first posts were mostly over the edge, but my idea was to stimulate a REAL reaction out of you, which sort-of worked, and also got some discussion flowing around the other members of the town. So far, besides my few attacks, its just been you and prana, which in the event you both are town, has served as a welcome distraction from any other suspicion for a majority of the last few pages.

I don't see why you need to bring up the fact another person is defending me and

they are the only one

, unless you want me to feel isolated and without support in order to somehow undermine my confidence and assured-ness. Care to explain the purpose of that part of your post?

IIRC, your original points were... 'saying you are town a lot' (disproven), 'saying you are town as a defense' (disproven), 'you are being defensive' (defended against), and 'you are not scumhunting enough' (imo, this is a rather weak attack very early in the game in which virtually no scumhunting has been done by

anybody

. it's a catch-all accusation that could be used about virtually anybody), and those were the meat of your accusations. And then, right after you say that it was purely to get a

real

reaction from me (nice implication that I was faking my reactions before that point, by the way), you attack me for having a large debate with prana, which

you quite blatantly helped fuel in the first damned place with your accusations

. To try and make the argument between me and Prana suddenly not-in-any-way-related-to-you is extremely scummy. You can't just throw accusations at somebody and then say 'omfg, your huge argument about you being scummy is totally not my fault, and you are distracting the town'

Seriously.

It's not like you did a damned thing to help in any way.

After all, you didn't even post.

Your stuff about redbox is fencesitting and wishy-washy at best.

'he seems noob townie, but I'm not really sure, and he could be scum because he's not actively participating' sums up your stance towards him. amazing in how you can go from you think he's town to you aren't certain about that to he may be scum but you dunno in two sentences.

Your stance to parana is completely incorrect, and your speculation about his role is

highly

suspect and is almost certainly rolefishing. He started off a large amount of pressure, then, as

other players came to attack me

, he started to reanalyze his stance. NOBODY HAD ATTACKED HIM AT THE TIME. The wagon on me almost certainly would've gone through, so a) isn't really feasible, considering he hadn't been attacked and I hadn't been defended (note that you say 'few more players' come to my defense when, in your stuff about me, you say only phaen has really defended me. very nice use of stating the facts in the way that best suits making somebody seem scummy / etc).

And I bet you would've 'urgently pushed' my lynch as well if you had in any way been present in the game. But you didn't post at all when things started to heat up.

It'd kinda like...

Guy who caused a problem (me): *stands in front of the mob*

Mob that's pissed off (the town): *wonders if they should attack*

Mayor that's selfish and devious (apathy): *sneaks by* 'it's all his fault, get him' *leaves*

Mob: *attacks*

Guy: *defends*

Person in the mob: Guys, you know, maybe it's not entirely his fault.

Mob: *calms the fook down*

Mayor: why were you guys all rioting and getting worked up? you were being ridiculous, now settle down and work o fixing the problem, don't pass the blame to others.

srsly.

I like how you don't point out any contradictions by fuzzy. Also, fuzzy is our

IC

. HOW IN THE FOOK DO YOU DISMISS HIM AS INEXPERIENCED TOWN

ie

!? not only do you speculate about his role (town

ie

), but you dismiss him based off of something that is factually untrue.

you don't state what is suspicious about skill in depth, you just go 'kinda strange uneasy gut feeling'

I'd also like to point out you are doing much the same as what you call skill out for doing - 'giving us enough but not too much'

Also, you make it seem like one of prana or myself must be right with the other wrong. false dichotomy.

already answered the stuff on me.

oh, forgot the 'I haven't seen a lot of

real

scumhunting'

Yeah, ummm... point out what my 'fake' scumhunting is, bub. Also explain to me, oh wise one, the great mysteries of mafia. Please unlock the ancient wisdom that you have gained from your great apathetical stance on the subject.

Also, point out the 'all-in-all easy' lynch

es

I have pushed for.

Citation needed

.

"I like phaen's posting so far." What about that isn't clear? It means I get a

townish read

. Seriously. You show bursts of insight and then suddenly pretend to not understand these kinds of things when they are obviously within your realm of understanding. So... deliberate misunderstanding = misrepresentation = scummy.

yeah, my posts are all mostly fluff, awesome reading comprehension, there. I totally don't state any real views or do any real scumhunting or n any way help the town. Man, I'm just so obv scum. (I'm showing you the ridiculousness of your viewpoint. If you find that what you just read offends you, then your own stance is offending you, and you should reevaluate it) fail'd at reading the thread mark #1

jmurph stuff is just agreeing with the majority, worthless in just about every way.

attacks phaen for thinking his posts are bad, implies all arguments but the 'repeated town claim' thing were good despite claiming earlier in the post that his posts were stretching in reasoning and, hence, bad. ++ contradiction/scum points

'who are you to speak for his actions' - easy attack on somebody for defending somebody else, pathetic attempt to demean the importance of other individuals and their own understanding, shows narrow-minded aggressiveness that is wholly unnecessary and very scummy in that it attempts to beat phaen down rather than actually have any form of discussion, debate, or, really, sharing of views. yet thinks attacking me for 'over-defensiveness'

still

remains a good argument. Also, just to turn your own question against you, WHO ARE YOU TO SAY SPEAK FOR MY ACTIONS? WHO ARE YOU TO SAY MY ACTIONS ARE SCUMMY OR TOWNISH? these are the same questions just worded differently. play-acting isn't the same as mafia. technically, everybody in this game is 'acting' as part of their role in the -game-. 'play-acting' is a joking, light-hearted acting, examples of which you can find in my numerous joking posts. good day.

uh-huh. if you had read, you'd realize phaen already covered this (as phaen has mentioned). fail'd at reading the thread mark #2

you say phaen should elaborate more on his points. maybe you should do the same, considering that many of your points are on a lesser level of detail than phaen's statement.

yah, just coming into the game should totally mean phaen should be worthless and helpless. great logic there, captain. you lack expounding on a large number of your own 'facts.' so yeh, hypocrisy at minimum, obvscum at more likely. wow, how is that a confirmation of 'phaen's ability' more than my read of him? weren't you earlier stating that you didn't get what I meant by stating I like phaen already? fail'd at remaining consistent mark # I'm too lazy to find them all

why don't you point out the more logical and soundly-backed arguments that just happen to be 80% reaction fishing for the enlightenment of the entire town.

Why do you feel that you can just vanish for great periods of time and then blame other players for talking a lot about something you, yourself, seem to take great claim in saying you helped cause it when it is convenient for you to do so yet you shouldn't be suspected? (note: this is a deliberate loaded question, much like the one asked of phaen)

[RayFrost]

Wow, larger than I thought.

And I forgot to

unvote, FoS: Apathy

waitin' on a vote count.

[RayFrost]

I think my massive posts are rubbing off on you Ray XD.

Nah, my original playstyle when I had

passion and high motivation

for the game as well as a lot of energy was walls of text.

I changed my playstyle gradually as that took too much energy to do consistently, and I feel dropping and rising from 3 page long posts to posts less than half a page in length isn't very good.

[RayFrost]

~bumpin' bumpin' bumpy~

[RayFrost]

I see Apathy came back, with a interesting post, I'll await the more precise post he promised.

...doing a ISO I noticed how passive she is in the game with making cases and voting.

Is being passive necessarily bad?

I'd say so, scum aren't interested in 'finding' scum.

@jmurph, if it hasn't been asked before, who do you think is scum and why.

the above poster didn't say anything about the responses to apathy's post.

[RayFrost]

I think it was jmurph taking that Ray was reacting to it, and because he reacted that means he must be scum. Not "He reacted to it, and so it means me and him are scum".

That was indeed what I meant.

Sorry I haven't been on, I plan on responding to PaltryExcuse, Apathy, and Ray's exceedingly long post, but it most likely won't be til tomorrow.

the above poster hasn't done anything since the above post

[RayFrost]

I am posting now to let everyone know that I won't have computer access this weekend, so I will see you all on Monday.

the above poster gets a bye

[RayFrost]

0_0 Apathy lives! (go ahead and take your time catching up, by the way, as it is alot of material to consider, however please try not to dawdle too much as there are alot of players we aren't able to get a read on because of replacements/RL issues, such as yourself)

...everyone else is leaves as soon as he comes back...*sigh...

Oh and dooooooon't wait up for me, please.
I'll catch up to you guys before you know it.

And its a good thing you're optimistic about it, or we would get nowhere! ^_^

ooh, and a question all for me!

Question for Skill: in Post #145 which attack were you referring to? The one on Ray or the one on fuzzy? Its not exactly clear to me.

I was referring to my attack on ray. I think I quoted it in the post, but I don't blame you for missing it (I usually don't look at the quotes for some reason).

Just to clear it up, I did believe in my attack on fuzzy somewhat, but as you could prob. tell I wasn't 100% confident on it. I felt it was something scummy I had picked out, but he refuted it clearly enough and I understand what I thought was scummy was a total difference in playstyle.

the above poster hasn't done much lately

[RayFrost]

This poster is decently useful but needs to post more often

[RayFrost]

this poster is scummy and rarely posts at all

[RayFrost]

Content needed.

[RayFrost]

agreeing isn't scummy.

not voting apathy despite agreeing so much is scummy (especially when you are voting a proponent of the apathy-wagon)

[RayFrost]

skill's posting is very restricted in what it covers.

GIVE A STANCE ON WHAT IS GOING ON ALREADY!

[RayFrost]

Wow, larger than I thought.

And I forgot to

unvote, FoS: Apathy

waitin' on a vote count.

^---- lern2reed newbs!

vote: apathy

THIS IS L-1, ONE MORE VOTE LYNCHES APATHY

[RayFrost]

We wait 5 days for Apathy, then we give phaen a cookie and hammer apathy at the same time.

phaen gets the cookie cuz the avatar is cuddly.

[RayFrost]

well, it prevents us from possibly lynching a power role.

and apathy would have to keep up a fakeclaim for an extended period of time.

not likely.

[RayFrost]

Weeelll.... you don't

have

to believe a claim.

If they claim cop in lylo, for example, you should probably ignore the claim and analyze their play.

I've claimed cop as scum in lylo to great success. I've also claimed cop in order to out the cop to get a setup reveal for my partner, etc, etc.

Anyway, the more experienced players (as in people far, far better than me) have actually talked about lynching regardless of the claim.

mainly, claiming is to let a PR get their information out.

[RayFrost]

Wow, larger than I thought.

And I forgot to

unvote, FoS: Apathy

waitin' on a vote count.

^---- lern2reed newbs!

vote: apathy

THIS IS L-1, ONE MORE VOTE LYNCHES APATHY

not a contradiction, phaen.

I said I was waiting on a vc.

[RayFrost]

skill's posting is very restricted in what it covers.

GIVE A STANCE ON WHAT IS GOING ON ALREADY!

Um, deflecting little much?
Why do you want to get all the attention on Apathy.
Why don't you respond to skill discrediting your posts.

How is this deflecting?

Skill's not given a stance on current events. By purely talking about what happened in the past while the town brawls out the present, she can avoid giving a stance and then come in on the popular side without much notice.

I didn't see skill discrediting me. If she has, I'd like to know where.

[RayFrost]

prana's unofficial vc doesn't count, bub.

[RayFrost]

kison's vc was before my post.

[RayFrost]

so I didn't see it.

[RayFrost]

Just curious:
@RayFrost: Other than Apathy, who do you suspect (and why)?

jammer, skill, and jmurph

[RayFrost]

words words words insults insults arrogance words words words appeal to fear

words words words words insults jabs words words words words words

[RayFrost]

I wont be that mad about it though, I've read 20 pages of sheer crap from a bunch of really bad townies. Cant say Im surprised since it is a noob game, but come on. Pull your head out of your ass.

1. you are a 'noob' so yeah.

2. you are placing personal insults, which is a big no no

3. saying

the rest of the town

is bad just because you are getting lynched is pathetic. Seriously, it's pitiful. Man up to the fact

you seem scummy

and get over yourself.

[RayFrost]

Oh, that and I am very very busy with work.


I made a decent case that was never really followed up on by anyone. Ray took prana by the ears and got him all upset to distract the rest of the town long enough to deflect the attention on to the next target.


I would love to continue to make decent posts using logic, but it doesnt seems to pierce half of the thick skulls here, so why bother?



Seems to be getting someone all upset and making them e-rage for a couple pages is enough of a 'defense' to get someone else lynched. Maybe I should try that, what do you think ray?

Cuz you weren't here to follow up on it and prana sooooo didn't attack me at all and I didn't get within lynching range. Yeah, really good first paragraph there, completely backed up by logic and evidence.

insults once again, pointless AtE

well, you are already e-raging and casting insults and emotional appeals, so why not try to goad me into raging at you, amirite?

ofc, you'd have to show evidence that I incited prana into an emotional state from which I backed him down through some super 1337 manipulation to make myself seem town, oh wait, this is a town full of crap players, so I couldn't do that.

[RayFrost]

So, you point out what I did (change my opinion) as though its relevant, then go on to defend yourself doing the exact same thing?


This is the reason why I said you are dumb. Your logic is flawed, and you are so wrapped up in your OWN points that you have no care or willingness to look beyond it, until someone makes you upset apparently which Ray did a great job of btw.


The 'noob card' wasnt a 'card' I was 'playing'

I was making a blanket statement because of the fact that fuzzy has terrible logic and contradicts himself in huge posts, you do the same, jammer I have no harsh words for he seems pretty smart, Ray is blatantly playing you for a sucker by getting you all raged and then shifting the focus, Phaen is smart and playing logically, and PE has barely contributed compared to you, ray, phaen, jammer, and fuzzy. The town, as a whole, is playing like noobs with a stupid pack mentality and you're leading the idiotic charge.


So far you personally have served to do nothing but confuse the town on EVERY ISSUE. You took up the helm of ray's lynch, even putting him to l-1, then ray accused redbox of something minor and stupid, and you took on that charge, then on to fuzzy, after jmurph, and now me. Especially considering Im probably missing a few, this is just BAD PLAY. You havent raised any real contributions of your own, you just keep taking other people's arguments (however small and bad ex. ray's attack on redbox) and overly elaborating to the point of it just being ridiculous. You tried to force the town to lynch ray.

YOU WERE CALLING FOR SOMEONE TO COME IN AND FINISH HIM OFF SEVERAL TIMES. Now all of the sudden Ray has no more guilt and Im the one to go?


Seriously?

Okay, I just want to call bullshit here.

stop insulting people. it's starting to make me want to request a forced replacement. it's not cool.

yeah, saying he's wrapped up in his own points and then saying he hasn't really made any original points is contradictory. Also note that you earlier said your case wasn't followed through upon yet prana, apparantly, has no original points, so he'd have had to use your own, which means that you insulted your own case despite earlier calling it decent.

You are passing all the blame for the suspicion on me on prana, taking no responsibility for your part on it, while also calling that I'm scum. Either take responsibility for the fact you contributed to my near lynch or stop trying to make it happen (note the irony that you are saying prana was trying to force people...)

You're about to lynch a vanilla because you cant pull back on your blind reigns and actually THINK about things before you make 10 irrational posts.

Ray noticed this, jumped all over you when you were attacking him, primed you up and let you go wild. For 4 pages straight. You basically distracted the whole town, Ray basically picked you to pieces (which isnt that hard tbh) and now he's made himself look better in the process JUST ENOUGH to shift the blame around town and get himself a little breathing room.


I havent gotten good reads on a lot of people, I will admit that, but Ray's style has been pathetically anti-town all game and you dont even care or notice because you're too busy blindly attacking whoever has a finger pointed at them. Its bad play. Plain and simple.



Again, if you are voting me off, you are being lead into a mislynch on a vanilla. You will see this as soon as I die. The real culprit would want to distract as much attention away from themselves, and just slightly contribute to a lynch enough to make it happen but not so much as to seem overzealous.

So far, Ray has tossed in little bits and pieces against me after the bandwagon gained steam, held off his vote in a contradicting manor, placed his vote slightly later to put me at l-1 and so far has made the smallest and worst case against me.

Hes got me right where he wants me to push a mislynch, keep himself alive, still be able to go back later on and just say he was going with the crowd. After all of his contradictions, useless finger pointing, useless posts, and overzealous defensiveness.


...and the big problem is Prana, even if you are town you have put 3 people to within 1 or 2 votes of a lynch, vocally supporting ending the day phase as soon as possible while filling your posts with contradictions and fluff, effectively confusing the town while attempting to lead bogus charges against almost 5 people now.

If it is so easy to pick prana to pieces, I'm surprised you haven't done so. Oh, it's not

that

easy? So you admit you aren't as good a player as somebody you've called an idiot? srsly.

oh, wow, you have virtually no good reads, yet you somehow know me as anti-town (note that anti-town != scummy, so you aren't even calling me scum here) but provide no evidence that the entirety of my posting is anti-town, which, imo, would say my playstyle is anti-town, but that would then have very little indication of my alignment. Also, you can't go 'omfg, you tried to force a ray lynch' and then, in the next breath, go 'omfg, you aren't trying to get ray lynched' as reasoning against somebody.

already covered the vote thing, so that point is fail.

and yeah, a 2 page word doc of a case is really, really small. congrats.

point out where the own is confused by

prana's

posting.

90% of your 'points' are things I would say 'Citation Needed' towards.

[RayFrost]

...and we keep someone who is blatantly scum around

when talking about me and the 50/50 lynch chances. First of all, you and no one else has pointed to anything I've done thats "blatantly scum"my. The most thats been lifted against me is pointing out a few inconsistencies and a quick bandwagon based on those. Anything else is a fabrication.

So again, you have this huge illusion of some grand case worthy of lynching me on, and yet in reality there is very, very little and you have served to only blow it out of proportion and hype a lynch based on nothing




Just like you did to jmurph
redbox
and rayfrost.

giving proof is tech.

lack of proof is fail.

this post fails.

[RayFrost]

Just curious:
@RayFrost: Other than Apathy, who do you suspect (and why)?

jammer, skill, and jmurph

giving proof is tech.

lack of proof is fail.

this post fails.

Yawn, yet more contradictions. Coupled with a condescending attitude.

I got mad at Prana because Im really on the fence with him. The more I read and re-read his posts, the more I feel like he is actually town, but I feel most of his points are null or over-hyped. Im not going to get mad and go back and forth with you because I feel you're scum, and if I just get mad, its going to again distract from your contradicting behavior and allow you to again use your condescending undertones to incite a player to rage at you and distract the town from any of your real scummy behavior.

Why dont you take your own advice and elaborate on your scumreads?

@Prana - You read really far into the things Im saying. You're assuming that everything I point out is a scumread on you. Let me clarify this: It is not. Most of the things I have pointed out about you are just regarding an annoying playstyle. To me. Things, about your style of play, that, to me, are annoying. I think, personally, they are bad play. Over elaborating (3 paragraphs) on insignificant points doesnt help the town. It makes the real points harder to see through all the fog. This, to me (especially with the limited time I have to read all of it) is annoying. I apologize for attacking you the way I did. Hope this clears the air on my thinking in doing so, at least.

Why dont we put our tiff behind us and actually work toward finding scum? Who else are you looking at? What about Skill006 or jammer?

I'll be finishing my big post before 5pm today

not a contradiction. 'giving proof is tech'

is different from 'giving reasoning is tech'

also, you go from 'prana is obv scum' to 'I'm on the fence' to 'I think he's town' - backpedaling much?

my reason to disliking skill/jammer has mostly to do with the fact they aren't willing to take a strong stance on the major things that are going on ITT. They can take stances on fringe components all they want, but it doesn't help much if they avoid discussing current events.

jmurph is neutral-leaning scum that I'd be willing to lynch but would highly prefer the other three on. this read is

I'll give my own response to your stuff towards the other players after they respond, as it is not my job to give them their defenses.

One major problem I have with your posts after my most recent one is... you didn't give any proof for what I was bothered by the lack of proof for.

So you've basically strawmanned me by attacking a 'contradiction' in my posting as a way out of actually responding to ANY of my points.

You just go 'you are contradicting yourself and being condescending, so yeah, I'm going to ignore you' and then go la di da and respond elsewhere without single point of defense against anything that's been said, really.

Your stuff toward prana is 'he's scum' 'he's neutral' 'he's town with an annoying playstyle' within two posts by you. amazing change there, mate. really nice use of the buddying and backpedaling techniques.

Also, not responding to the vast majority of points against you is still noted.

[RayFrost]

The reason Ray suspects me and skill probably has to do with not posting much about Apathy.

... and you still aren't.

[RayFrost]

@jmurph: The difference between what I was doing, which really came down to keeping my vote on you because I didn't have a better option until I moved it to Apathy, and what PD was doing to Ray, was PD was consistently attacking Ray without really even looking at anyone else. So I didn't move my vote, that happens very often in games, I was at least looking at other people, and when I found a better spot for my vote, I moved it there. If you can show me a post where all I said was jmurph is scum, jmurph is scum, I am not going to look at anyone else because jmurph is scum (not those specific words, but the general idea of the post), then I will concede that I was tunneling, but I don't believe you will find that.

@PD: The context that I read jammer's post in made it seem, to me at least, that I was supposed to reveal to him who the scum was, with him having to do little to no scumhunting. That is why I responded in the way I did. I hope that is not what he meant, but when I saw that post, that was the way I read it. If that makes me look scummy, then so be it, but it is not my intention to impede the hunting of scum.

okay, all well and good on the @ jmurph stuff.

not so well and good on the @ PD stuff

you say 'it is not my intention to impede the hunting of scum'

but you have a distinct lack of saying 'it is my intention to hunt scum' which is the main issue.

many of your recent posts are just responding to points by others without any real proactivity on your part.

care to explain why I shouldn't think you are scum for not really scumhunting lately and taking a highly defensive stance in which you are not attempting to scumhunt in a way that is pro-active and actually helps the town in any real way? (I say it like this because I am betting your response otherwise would be 'I'm scumhunting, I'm just not doing it your way' or something similar, which is not something I'm willing to tolerate)

[RayFrost]

I'll be finishing my big post before 5pm today

Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:31 pm

translated into PST...

Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:31 pm

the clock is ticking apathy.

also, why don't you focus your effort on your 'big post' rather than expending your energy on responding immediately?

[RayFrost]

phaen, I live in Japan, and it is currently 3:27 PM, so yeah.

[RayFrost]

Secondly, @Ray:

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

Who had said that at that point? (And as it turned out, Skill had just said 'not scum' at that point.)

not scum = town as far as I think.

I feel that anybody not outright agreeing with the case and voting me thinks that I'm not scum.

not cum means town

[RayFrost]

god that's an evil typo...

not

s

cum

[RayFrost]

god, too much to read after the post I quoted and responded to above.

I'll do it later. /procrastination

[RayFrost]

Just checking in with a minor progress update.

@RayFrost, why the town read for jmurph3 in Post 126? I see observations on her part that she's being attacked which aren't much of a tell one way or the other. Perhaps you explain that later but in case you didn't what was your motivation there?

1. I felt it was a scummy wagon, which would decrease the likelihood of jmurph scum

2. jmurph's posting up to that point gave me good vibes here and there

[RayFrost]

FUZZY LIGHTNING IS AT L-1!!!

[RayFrost]

I'd like it if somebody on the wagon unvoted

[RayFrost]

*shrugs* I don't mind taking it off till tomorrow but is there any particular reason that you're not comfortable with fuzzylightning at L-1 at this point?

Unvote

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

well, 1. fuzzy hasn't come on to post responses to your accusations an sich

2. I want everybody to give their top 1/2 scum read(s)

3. I don't want any 'accidental' hammers

[RayFrost]

I was up all night doing a case study...
sooo....

tired...

x.x

[RayFrost]

...This is a pretty crappy position to be in. I guess I'm the only one to blame for that, since I didn't vote/input sooner.

I'm weakly confident

that fuzzy is scum. However, as Zorblag mentioned, fuzzy is an IC, yet he has done nothing in the way of scumhunting.

@fuzzy: you said you only say things when they are worthwhile. Has there really been that little to say? Like you said here:

...but that doesn't mean that there is nothing you can do to facilitate discussion. Ask people questions (pertinent ones), re-read things that have been said and think to yourself, why would town say this and why would scum say this and which is more likely to be the case for a particular person. Not having anything to talk about should rarely be an excuse...

You know how to do it, and there is a good chunk of discussion to go through to ask questions, analyze, and use to scum hunt/pressure, but you're not doing any of that (except for the analyzing part). Why?

In fact, the more I think about it, the scummier fuzzy seems. By telling jmurph she needs to create discussion, and not do anything about it himself, makes it seem like he wants other people to post around and get the game going while he sits on the sidelines.

You know what, I think I could hammer fuzzy.

Not before he answers those questions, but once he does, depending on how he responds, I could probably hammer.

So, there's my stance...Hopefully I will also be readily available throughout today.

lol.

anyway, the choosing to not hammer despite your confidence seems like a stall tactic, especially considering the closeness of deadline.

just sayin'

anyway, I think it's most likely that jmurph or jammer, out of everybody on that lynch, is the scum.

Unless it's Zorb.

But Zorb is too swass to lynch.

Lynching him would halve the swass:not-swass ratio of this game.

[RayFrost]

I didn't like it, hence my lack of

vote: fuzzylightning

[RayFrost]

Okay, to answer the call of my infernal instinct and insanity, I will...

Vote: jammer

Here's the deal.

I think skill / jammer = scum (at least one of the pairing), but i have no real preference.

Skill already has a vote, so there's already somebody on her case.

I'm going after jammer more than skill because, as far as I've seen,

nobody else

sees that jammer is scummy.

So, here's the deal.

Neither jammer nor skill have really contributed a large amount.

Jammer's posts, though they seem large, consist mostly of quotes. I feel that the large number of one-liners done by jammer is masked by the fact there are huge ass quotes in his posts.

Many of his one-liners are more questions and slight prods towards other players to get them to state their reads while not really contributing much as to his own reads or analysis.

You can't be town by just making others do all the work.

This is what jammer is doing.

So he's scummy to me.

[RayFrost]

>.> Posted at the same time

So they both don't like each other. Meaning if they were working together, each is trying to throw the other under the bus.

meh.

I don't want to lynch jammer. I don't want to make him look scummy, either.

My intention for attacking him was not with the intent to lynch scum

/

other scummy deeds

you might want to accuse me of.

laughingelfman.jpg

unvote, vote: skill006

[RayFrost]

>.> Posted at the same time

So they both don't like each other. Meaning if they were working together, each is trying to throw the other under the bus.

meh.

I don't want to lynch jammer. I don't want to make him look scummy, either.

My intention for attacking him was not with the intent to lynch scum

/

other scummy deeds

you might want to accuse me of.

laughingelfman.jpg

unvote, vote: skill006

...wait...wut?

you don't want to lynch him or make him look scummy, so why did you attack him? (shows scum that's trying to backtrack from an earlier position)

you weren't attacking him with the intent to lynch scum or do any other scummy deeds (apparantly, wishing to lynch scum is scummy to you, shows paranoia and anxiety that is attributable to scum)

[RayFrost]

Zorby, you are obv town.

[RayFrost]

jmurph's stuff regarding my case...

'Ray's case is weak, so I'm going to make a new one even though Ray hasn't really done anything to support an attack on jammer! Go go power rangers!'


sums it up, methinks

[RayFrost]

@ Zorb:

I had four posts during the period of time that fuzzy was ran up and lynched.

I wasn't very vocal about it, I admit.

I should've been, but I was quite busy during that period of time and (if you check other games) lurking quite a bit ^.^"

[RayFrost]

...is phaen coming back?

Either way,

vote:phaen

gogo lynch

^---- need2die

[RayFrost]

unvote, FoS: Skill

need2votecount

[RayFrost]

I can't exactly stop a lynch from happening if he gets hammered, can I?

Better to give reasons that make sense before delving into why lynching was a bad idea in the first place.

I have troubles with the whole timing of stuff.

[RayFrost]

very weak meta from a single game with fuzzy-town where he played the same way as here.

[RayFrost]

@RayFrost, perhaps you've already gone over this but have you ever seen him play as scum?

Do you have any reason to believe that he'd change up his day one play as scum in general? It's a pretty good style to have people expect to hide scum play behind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I have no experience with him as scum.

Which is why the meta is 'very weak'

[RayFrost]

It's reasonable.

[RayFrost]

oh, okay.

vote: skill

[RayFrost]

Phaen's the scum, not me. Your gun's pointed in the wrong direction.

Anyway, what's your case on me besides YOU HAVE NOT POSTED. YOU HAVE NOT POSTED. SCUM LIKE TO LURK. YOU ARE SCUM.

I'm posting now, aren't I?

I just needed a vote count.

lol

yeah

I totally don't have a case

[RayFrost]

skiiiilll should claim.

unvote

'till then

[RayFrost]

If I controlled who got lynched, it'd be between you and jammer.

You are the more likely to be lynched, and, since I have no real preference, I go with you over jammer.

[RayFrost]

What about me having no preference makes you uncomfy?

Also, I think they are equally scummy especially considering they are scummy for the same things, imo.

So yeh.

And not really.

[RayFrost]

Prodding jammer.

Prod me while you are at it.

[RayFrost]

Day Two: Vote Count

Phaen (

2

) : Skill006, Zorblag
Skill006 (

1

) : Phaen

Not Voting (

4

) : jammer, jmurph3, RayFrost, PranaDevil

With

7

alive, it will take

4

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

March 23rd, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

this doesn't show jammer as an option.

please explain, prana.

by the by, I still wanna lynch skill.

vote: skill

this post has very little content.

that's cuz I'm being lazy.

[RayFrost]

that's cuz I'm being lazy.

why

weeeelllllll, there's the fact this game consists mostly of text walls, and they are quite horrifying to my eyes and very tiring to read.

At this point, I'm reverting to just my Raw Frosty Instinct^tm, which has failed me very few times in the past.

[RayFrost]

vote: RayFrost

Reasons: He's not done anything D2, considering the amount of wind being blown from him D1, I would have felt there would be much more activity from him this day. Instead he's gone from one of the most active (between me and him) to just popping up to say a few lines (sometimes not even saying anything with them) before disappearing again.

Also, apparently opposed the fuzzy lynch based on really weak meta apparently, but gave his full reasons after the lynch (when it was too late) and said reasons weren't that good either from what I could gather.

So yeah, I still suspect some others, but Ray's style of play has gone from seemingly going after everyone D1, to doing sod all D2 suddenly... almost as if it's "heat off, hold back" for him. I don't like it.

>.>

<.<

SILENCE!

I AM CONCENTRATING!

seriously, I am concentrating in a way that prevents me from posting, as it is the purest state of scumhunting I have been able to obtain. You'll see the full values of it in a bit.

@ Skill

why the no reply to my reply to your reply to my laziness?

[RayFrost]

@ Skill

why the no reply to my reply to your reply to my laziness?

Since you are here, reply.

[/vanishes into the mist]

[RayFrost]

yawn, I took yesterday off from doing anything, sue me you piggy backer!

note that a piggy backer is one that uses the reasoning of another as their reasoning against somebody else.

in this case, that would be skill.

also, is jammer being replaced, or has jammer just vanished?

prana, your post on phaen has no real conclusion and seems wishy washy at the end. care to give a

clear

conclusion rather than one where you keep dodging the actual stating of a conclusion?

Also, do you feel that it is appropriate to lynch me because I've changed the consistency and style of my posting?

It seems to me that your reasoning here for finding me scummy is rather flimsy and weak, at best.

I'm posting less, but I'm being rather blatant about it, wouldn't you say?

And yes, jammer's issue was posting content, but not posting quantity. Jammer has posted quite a bit, but I felt that he's not posted much content on average across his posting, which is a sure sign of Active Lurking through Surplus (posting a helluva lot to make it seem like you are being helpful when you are really being worthless).

[RayFrost]

EBWOP

@Skill, have I looked at your case? Seriously? Who began looking at you?

As for Zorblag, I've already said I'm not entirely sure on him.

As for Ray, no, it's not "he's not posting much" it's "he's been posting tons, and suddenly backed off a hell of a lot when the heat was off him, and with everyone suddenly being quiet, it's even more noticeable from him".

ummm...

hold on a second.

You are saying that I STOPPED POSTING A LOT WHEN THE HEAT IS OFF ME?

REALLY?

HAVE YOU NOT CHECKED MY POSTING?

Check my posting after you stopped pressuring me, oh, wait, I was active then (considering I was pushing apathy, etc, redbox, blah blah blah).

My posting

recently

has dropped. And when is it? Sure as hell not even close to when the heat was off me.

[RayFrost]

As for when the heat is off... okay yeah, D1 you kept posting... D2 you've been about as active as an pensioner's tackle... i.e. not very, and you've given absolutely zero reason for it, except that you've done so deliberately... despite the blatant lack of a good town reason for it. Holding back is understandable if there's issues going on elsewhere to see what's going on... when no bugger is saying anything, and you state you are deliberately not saying anything, and basically allowing the game to stall? Nah, something's amiss there.

That's a completely different point than 'he stops posting when the heat is off of him, scum!'

It is now 'he's deliberately not posting a lot on Day two for reasons he hasn't shared, scum!'

and you can be blatant about it.

IIRC, I said I'm not posting a lot on purpose. Can't get any more blatant than that.

[RayFrost]

phaen's town.

that's my read.

It'll likely change tomorrow game time depending on what happens today.

[RayFrost]

And I really don't like that.

FoS: Zorb

. I still think Ray is a better lynch for today, but you're only adding to the suspicion I had against you.

^---- obv obv obv following prana's every little thought process and agreeing with him.

so obvious that jmurph is playing the 'post a lot without saying anything and then conclude with agreeing with the obv town guy' strategy.

unvote, vote: jmurph3

This is a good lynch, my friends.

If you want, I'll go through jmurph's postings in general in order to give more evidence of this, but it should be obvious if you pay enough attention.

ofc, if you think the scumteam is me and zorblag, you should call this obv chainsaw defending and attack me for it.

[RayFrost]

Hey smash, you do realize that attacking me by piggy backing others is a really great way to make me notice you, right?

Let's analyze

your vote post

on its own, ignoring everything else on this page.

I'd like to point out the lack of any mention of skill past the initial 'skill and ray are suspicious to me and I'm not sure which is scummier!' stuff.

The poke towards Prana is highly contrived and weak at best. Changing votes is hardly scummy, and prana has been consistent in the worrying about getting the town to agree with a lynch, which is not a scumtell (a town-wide decision is good).

Then goes on to vote me and not say anything about skill. He then essentially says... 'he's gone, and he shows he can do good posting, but isn't consistent about this' as his reasoning to vote me. Really?

And then the last paragraph is so much bow and scrape that I want to dayvig him. It's 'okay guys, I know I'm doing something scummy, but I think nobody will do anything even further, and I'll do whatever you say if you say I should do it, oh, and this is totally a pressure vote' - the pressure vote statement is the 'maybe it will get him to explain himself!' as if that's the reason for the vote. It contrasts with the pseudo-reasoning he gave earlier in his post.

Now, if we do lynch smash, I would like to direct you to skill as Most Likely Scumbuddy.

I'm just sayin'

unvote, vote: smashbro

woohoo, call in the claims that this is just completely obv omgus using veiled smokescreen reasoning that fails (note that using this argument will result in you blowing yourself up)

[RayFrost]

By the by, I play games like this...

'FLURRY OF AWESOMENESS'

'out of gas'

'refuel'

'FLURRY OF AWESOMENESS'

It's rinse and repeat.

I don't have much gas in my tank, folks.

[RayFrost]

@Ray: still waiting for your "flurry of awesomeness".

this was me revving up, I can't just jump into being badass all the time

[RayFrost]

My biggest issue with Ray's play there is... we have just a couple of days to go before the end of the day, and rather than cast a vote in the direction of one of the more viable wagons (personally it would appear to be a choice of: Ray, Zorblag, Phaen, Skill, just from what I've seen today, even if I don't agree with the Phaen one). He casts a completely fresh vote in the direction of someone who's not really been under fire, with no real "oomph" to the post either that would make us want to switch our votes that strongly.

He even makes mention that he feels Skill is "most likely scumbuddy" of Smash, and then votes Smash, why not vote Skill when people might be more inclined to vote her? We don't have long to really do much more, and while looking in other directions is fine in general, 2 days before deadline is not the time to start causing more distractions for town as a whole.

I'm happy with the vote on Zorblag for now.

Eeeehhhh, I hadn't really considered that.

Good point.

unvote, vote: skill

[RayFrost]

Zorblag's defense of me is characteristic of what I've seen of him - he vehemently opposes any lynches that he believes will end up flipping a townie. I find it to be a town-tell on zorby.

By the way, I have a distinct distaste for the skill wagon when looking over skill's posting (as in logically speaking), as skill's play has been consistent and such, but I still want the lynch (as in instinctually).

My main issue is that skill, at minimum, gives me a read on

everybody

in the game, regardless of her flip. I feel that she will flip scum, but i think she won't, and my own wishy washy contradictiveness is bugging the hell out of me.

ugh x.x

[RayFrost]

Well, at L1, so I should claim.

VT.

Nothing special here.

This is not the droid you are looking for.

My power level is not over 9000.

etc.

By the by, zorby, IIRC, you opposed a lynch in a game modded by starkmoon in which I was night killed N1 and you were nightkilled some time later in the game. You replaced into that one, and it has been a while since then, so my memory may be foggy about that.

[RayFrost]

Hold on Ray, so you think Skill is town... yet haven't long ago said you feel she's likely in a scum team with Smash, and then agreed to vote for Skill because lynching her or Smash would be equal in your books...

I could understand the change in view over a time period, but being that Skill hasn't even posted since you voted for Smash (and said she was likely linked with him), I see no reason why you would change your view from that, to your latest post.

I re-read skill's posting in the time period since then.

I changed my opinion.

by the by, suspects...

1 smash

2 perez

3 jmurph

[RayFrost]

Wow, that must've sucked

I investigated scum on night 1, but he practically claimed scum the next day (hint hint RayFrost), so it proved useless lol

Not only did I practically claim scum...

I got you to claim cop to CC me unnecessarily.

And then my partner won it.

Mad skills right there.

gg guys, though I'm sad about the end result.