Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[PranaDevil]

I think my first order of the day tomorrow is to go back and re-read everything in the thread, as with the case building on redbox, and such, I am beginning to wonder whether I was hasty on Ray or not, I think it may well be worth me evaluating everyone's posts to see if there's anything I missed here.

[PranaDevil]

EBWOP (I need to use that damned preview button more often)

I agree that saying "We lynch Ray, if he flips town, we hit redbox, if he flips..." comes across scummy, it's one thing late game when you have reads, or perhaps people have role revealed without being contested and you can be pretty sure in the views due to previous actions. But day 1... likely wont be the best time to pull that stuff, we can't be sure.

And yes, I do have a feeling I said something similar during my issue with Ray, but I also am going to admit I was getting hot headed there which was clouding my judgement, and I'm sure it's noticeable that I've stepped back and have taken a closer look over things and it's been for the better.

[jmurph3]

So, basically, you are setting up lynches.

consider the following sequence...

ray flips town (I will)

go after redbox

redbox flips town

scum-jmurph would loooooveeee this.

setting up lynches like this is scummy.

Actually, I would "looooooooveeee" it if you both flipped scum. How is laying out my suspicions in the order in which I have them (i.e. I think you're scummier than redbox, but redbox is up there too) scummy?

[PranaDevil]

I think the point Ray means (At least it's my view, and it's what I admit I was guilty of earlier in the game) is that you're leaving no room for consideration, it's black and white "lynch him, then lynch him" and it pretty much would leave zero room for considering discussion the next day if you can pre-arrange the lynch in advance.

It also means scum would know who "not" to lynch.

Imagine the following scenario:
Players 1 & 2 - scum
Players 3 - 9 - town

Now, say we accidentally had a potential lynch on player 3, that's going strong, and player 4 comes in with a really bad comment that gets him on everyone's radar so people start saying "lynch player 3, then player 4", if we pre-arrange that, then it leads to the following actions:

D1 - Lynch player 3
Night 1 - player 5 gets NK'd as there's absolutely zero reason to go after player 4
D2 - Lynch player 4 with next to no discussion as it's "pre-arranged".
Night 2 - player 6 gets NK'd
D3 - Left with 3 town, 2 mafia, and we're in lylo with absolutely nowhere to go but down.

The only people the possibility of that scenario would benefit, is scum. We want to avoid that happening as much as possible, sure we may wind up with that anyway, but pre-arranging things will get us there quicker than anything else will.

[RayFrost]

Prana explains it well.

You are learning, young padawan.

[jmurph3]

I think the point Ray means (At least it's my view, and it's what I admit I was guilty of earlier in the game) is that you're leaving no room for consideration, it's black and white "lynch him, then lynch him" and it pretty much would leave zero room for considering discussion the next day if you can pre-arrange the lynch in advance.

If that's what it came across as, I apologize. I did not mean it in a "I'm totally going to lynch you, then lynch him" way. I meant it in a "If we vote to lynch Ray, and Ray turns out to be town, then redbox will be at the top of my suspicions" way. There's a lot of variable of this. There's not guarantee we will lynch Ray. There's no guarantee Ray will turn out as town. I didn't mean to make things so black and white. My views are always open to change, and will always change based on new evidence.

[fuzzylightning]

RF: I did have something to say to apathy, I had asked him to elaborate on what it was that he was saying, and to look at other players as well.

PD: Why are you still bringing up a pair of me and apathy when you even admitted that I didn't forget about Apathy and that I have mentioned him. I also don't like how you were mentioning setting up lynches. You have no idea what anyone will flip right now, and therefore should not be looking to lynch someone based on a certain flip, that in itself is inherently scummy. Everything you say is predicated on RF flipping scum, what if he is town?

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game. Voting with people that you find scummy, is scummy. If you think 2 people are scum, then in a game where we know that there are only 2 scum, how could you then vote for person #3?

I agree with RF on the implication that he is jmurph's partner in RB's post, and that direct implication seems very scummy to me.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

To everyone who has said they are off to bed, it really isn't necessary, we know that there are times when people need to sleep, and posting that you are going to bed is something that I don't believe we need to know.

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Jammer: I would like to see a true analysis of everyone in this game, including the player that you replaced, as if you were a third party, not just saying they are neutral, and from that, make a list of 3 people that you would put at the top of a "scum list"

Skill: I am now confused that you thought I was confused. I ask questions all game, its how I glean information from people. The answers to my questions often bring up follow up questions which are often the direct result of an answer and therefore, analysis of the answer isn't prudent. I don't like to bring forth information unless I am making a legitimate case against someone, or if it is directly asked of me.

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

To answer jammer's questions:

I am not liking jmurph. The early talk about her avatar, then non defense of herself (only to be saved by RF), and now the setting up of lynches, which I stated above is scummy, just makes me not like her as town more and more.
I also suspect RB for voting for Person C along with Person A and Person B (both of which he has said he is suspicious of)
My third scummiest read comes from Apathy, he has only posted a couple times and both have been cases against RF with limited mentioning of everyone else

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

[RayFrost]

The way you said it kinda says the contrary.

Chalice o' backpedal, anyone?

[jmurph3]

The way you said it kinda says the contrary.

Chalice o' backpedal, anyone?

I would disagree with you. What I said was

To me, this only adds to the suspicion mounting on redbox, and while it's not enough yet for me to switch off of Ray, it is enough for me to think that he's prime suspect if Ray flips town.

Note how I said

if

Ray flips town, which implies both that we would have to lynch you and that you would flip town for this statement to be true. I also said that it would be enough for me to

think he's prime suspect

. Nowhere did I say that I was going to automatically lynch him if we lynched you and you turned out to be town.

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

RayFrost (

3

) : Apathy, jmurph3, redbox
jmurph3 (

1

) : fuzzylightning
redbox (

1

) : RayFrost
Skill006 (

1

) : PaltryExcuse

Not Voting (

3

) : jammer, Skill006, PranaDevil

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[RayFrost]

Note how I said

if

Ray flips town, which implies both that we would have to lynch you and that you would flip town for this statement to be true. I also said that it would be enough for me to

think he's prime suspect

. Nowhere did I say that I was going to automatically lynch him if we lynched you and you turned out to be town.

As scum, you'd know I'd flip town, so imma ignore that bit.

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

[RayFrost]

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

FoS: Fuzzy

[jmurph3]

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

Not to accuse you of this...as it'd be the second time this game that this has happened...but it seems like you're trying to put words into my mouth.

[RayFrost]

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

Not to accuse you of this...as it'd be the second time this game that this has happened...but it seems like you're trying to put words into my mouth.

*yawns and writes down a note in a little black notebook that reads 'noted is jmurph's attempt to incite a blow up / discredit me without actually putting up a real defense' before leaving to do schoolwork*

[fuzzylightning]

RF: Am I to infer that you think I am contradicting myself by quoting those two portions of that post?

[PranaDevil]

fuzzy, I think I did the linking of you and apathy without even thinking then, and other than the issue Ray brought up (which I nullified) I haven't actually had a scummy read on either of you (another reason I intend on going fully through the thread in the morning when I have time lets me re-evaluate everyone and everything)

And as I say above, I too don't like how I was setting up lynches, it was bad play, and damned sure wasn't going to help town, which is why I'm backing off and looking at things afresh.

As it stands I'm doubting myself on the Ray lynch, and want to even re-evaluate everything there myself (including my own posts) before I stick to a decision now, and I'm actually glad PE managed to make me back off before I did lynch fast and possibly stuff up the game for town.

Though you're not off the hook just yet Ray *shakes finger menacingly* :p.

and before I post... good spot on that Ray... Fuzzy thinks we're both town, yet sticks a FoS on me for something he thinks was a town Vs town argument? Hmm.

[RayFrost]

RF: Am I to infer that you think I am contradicting myself by quoting those two portions of that post?

P. much.

Would you disagree?

'I suspect you'

'I think it is most likely you are town'

those are the tl;dr versions.

[fuzzylightning]

The FoS was originally a vote, but as I continued thinking about it, I began to think it was a Town v. Town argument, but I still am of the opinion that PD perpetrated more and I put the FoS there to show that I felt he was more in the wrong on that, rather than me thinking that he is scum.

[RayFrost]

So you did the FoS because you think his suspicions are wrong, not cuz you think he's scum?

...

...

...

wut?

[fuzzylightning]

It makes sense in my head. Maybe it would have been more appropriate as an IGMEOY, than an FoS, but yes, it more comes down to that I felt he was more at fault than I am overly suspicious of him, as he doesn't make my top 3

[RayFrost]

FoS[uspicion] - saying somebody is suspect and you'd voet them if not for thinking the person you are voting is scummier

Not thinking somebody is scum - not something you'd FoS for.

It's a contradiction.

[fuzzylightning]

I know what an FoS is. So yea, it is a contradiction of the meaning of FoS, my intention was not the suspicion, more the I am watching him, so an IGMEOY is the appropriate terminology. but I can't take back what I have written, only hope to explain what my intentions were.

[RayFrost]

Yup, my FoS stays.

redbox is still scum, though.

[jmurph3]

And what you literally say isn't always what you actually say.

Not to accuse you of this...as it'd be the second time this game that this has happened...but it seems like you're trying to put words into my mouth.

*yawns and writes down a note in a little black notebook that reads 'noted is jmurph's attempt to incite a blow up / discredit me without actually putting up a real defense' before leaving to do schoolwork*

What other defense would you like me to give besides the fact that you misinterpreted what I said? Or, more accurately, read in to what I said to see what you want to see?

I do not know that you are scum. I think you are scum, for reasons already so delineated that I'm not going to bother typing them up again. I also think that redbox is acting scummy, meaning that I'm going to keep my eye on him and suspicions on him, which will be stronger or weaker depending on what comes to pass.

[RayFrost]

You basically say 'u r putting words in mah mouth! u is scum!' as your defense (I did it in a patronizing way for emphasis).

It's less what you say than how you say it.

Keep this kind of distinction in mind.

prime suspect / most likely lynch target, same diff.