Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Zorblag]

After the first 10 pages it looks a lot to me like RayFrost and PranaDevil are in a town-town fight. I don't expect to be interested in lynching either of them today. My first guess for scum up to there is redbox. I just don't feel like there's been any presence from fuzzylightning; he or jmurph3 seem thus far to be the next two most likely. PaltryExcuse and Skill006 are looking a bit better; if they're scum then they're playing the start of the game well. jammer's entrance to the game seems decent thus far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

Welcome Zorb. I welcome whatever insight you can give before the deadline.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Could you extend the day?

I'll just re-iterate where I stand for my three scum targets to make things clear for the replacement, Zorblag:
1) jmurph3
2) fuzzylightning
3) Apathy/Zorblag

[PaltryExcuse]

@jammer: What are you views on jmurph3?

[jammer]

Not really interested in lynching jmurph. If needed, I elaborate on that when I get the time.

The top3 if I would call a scumlist right now.

1) Fuzzy
2) Apathy
3) Skill

[PaltryExcuse]

Vote: fuzzylightning

I think it's pretty improbable I'm going to get the lynch I want today, so #2 is a go.

[Zorblag]

So I'm through page 17 at this point and I'll be taking a break for a bit now. My suspicions haven't changed all that much since around page 10. I find it curious that the redbox suspicion faded away how it did as the pressure I saw felt like it was largely town motivated. I don't have anything in particular against what I'm seeing of Phaen's play thus far but I haven't seen a reason for me to change my mind on the player spot.

I'll be back after I've had a chance to get something to eat; I can tell my energy level is flagging and I'm not as sharp as when I started.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[PranaDevil]

Being that I likely will have to head off shortly myself (and short of an extension, which I would also request being this late into the day with a replacement (everyone should get a chance to at least discuss, even if people do lynch the lanky troll regardless )), I have a few questions I want to ask Zorblag (which I would request are also answered only after reading through the full thread).

So to Zorblag:
What are your views on Apathy's play prior to you taking his slot?
Would you have considered a lynch on him based on his actions regardless of your knowledge of the actual role?
Who would you say are the top 3 scummy players thus far, and why?
Has anything specifically stood out as strange that nobody else has managed to pick up on so far?
Have you any specific advice for any players based on what you have seen in this game (as opposed to just overall general advice)?

[Zorblag]

OK, I'm back and I finished my read. Let me answer some questions (which also happen to give the results of my read at this point that I'd like to be sure to pass on):

What are your views on Apathy's play prior to you taking his slot?

Would you have considered a lynch on him based on his actions regardless of your knowledge of the actual role?

He was pretty lynchable I'd say. He largely wasn't about and I don't seem to find his contributions particularly usefull when he was. His attitude that everyone else was clearly playing a terrible game because they didn't agree with him doesn't help anyone and I don't agree with most of his conclusions. Had the town lynched him after his claim I wouldn't have shed any tears. Had I been in another player spot I probably would have lynched him after the claim (though in my opinion claims should only come when someone is about to be lynched and, especially day one, they shouldn't do anything to stop the lynch from happening.)

Who would you say are the top 3 scummy players thus far, and why?

I think that my list would be fuzzylightning, Phaen and then jmurph3.

fuzzylightning is actually pretty troubling because he's been such a non-presense in the game which is a big flag from an IC. He is right that town shouldn't rely on the IC to do their scum hunting for them but he's played a very reactive rather than pro-active game. He often seems to show up to answer questions when they're directed at him but he's mostly letting the game flow and seems to be finding the convenient positions to take rather than trying to put any pressure on those he's saying he finds scummy or looking hard at the rest of the players.

My suspicions of Phaen are mostly a holdover from redbox but once Phaen replaced in we did have some heavy posting at the start and then it really tapered off once the suspicion had dispersed. For redbox, especially at the start of the game it feels like he was posting mostly because he thought that he had to be posting. I didn't get a feel that he was either looking for scummy behavior or trying to figure out how he'd going about doing that. When he did start throwing around suspicions he was pretty willing to bend them to what looked like it was going to be the easier lynches rather than maintaining any consistency (others have noted this as well.)

jmurph3 stands out from early in the game when she just didn't feel like she was participating to do anything other than make observations about why she was being suspected (and it didn't feel like there was even a defense there, just observations.) It feels like she's managed to get more of a hold on how to start looking at players since then so there's definitely some holdover in my opinions that might not be appropriate now (keep in mind I just read 23 pages in a relatively short period of time.)

I've got some concern that some players are out of the spotlight but most of the time when I was thinking that someone in the thread would point it out before too long.

Has anything specifically stood out as strange that nobody else has managed to pick up on so far?

Yeah, in Post 172 it seems like redbox might be under the impression that scum can daytalk (when he talks about jmurph3.) I was pretty surprised that no one else commented about it that I noticed. I'm not sure what to make of it. It could have been a deliberate attempt to show that he doesn't know how the scum team is able to operate in the game or it could have been genuine and a reason to knock him way down on the list of suspects. I'd have loved to have seen his reactions to some subtle questions along those lines but it's far too late for that now.

Past that the game got to be more and more of a blur as I went. There are probably other things that were at least noteworthy in my opinion that weren't noted but I couldn't immediately tell you what they were just now.

Have you any specific advice for any players based on what you have seen in this game (as opposed to just overall general advice)?

Well, for this game in particular I'd say that RayFrost really does seem to have given largely excellent advice about claims and lynches what to do regarding them. When in doubt do go look back at what he's had to say about the issues in addition to anything else you're doing.

I think that on the whole there's been a fairly good record of the players not mixing up personality and alignment; keep that up.

A no lynch today will be worse than any other action we could take. As Apathy already claimed my role (and correctly, I am a Vanilla Townie) I will have little objection to being lynched should there not be time to make some other choice. It'll help eliminate any question about my role and I've not been quick lynched since joining the game so I have and will have had a chance to give you a fresh pair of eyes looking at what's happening which is as much as I hoped for when I offered to replace in given the state of the game.

I'll be around some tomorrow so I should be able to answer any other questions and hopefully I'll have a chance to do some reading in isolation to firm up some of what I've said. For now though I'm off to bed.

Vote: fuzzylightning

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RayFrost]

FUZZY LIGHTNING IS AT L-1!!!

[RayFrost]

I'd like it if somebody on the wagon unvoted

[Zorblag]

*shrugs* I don't mind taking it off till tomorrow but is there any particular reason that you're not comfortable with fuzzylightning at L-1 at this point?

Unvote

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RayFrost]

*shrugs* I don't mind taking it off till tomorrow but is there any particular reason that you're not comfortable with fuzzylightning at L-1 at this point?

Unvote

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

well, 1. fuzzy hasn't come on to post responses to your accusations an sich

2. I want everybody to give their top 1/2 scum read(s)

3. I don't want any 'accidental' hammers

[PranaDevil]

(So much for heading to bed earlier, lol)

I'm actually glad that we did wait on Zorblag's post to be honest, it appears that he's going to put some effort into the game above what Apathy was doing (rather an ironic name I thought).

It also confirmed a lot of what has been said in regards to fuzzy and jmurph throughout the day, (Although there is the possibility of replacement scum deciding to agree with two potential wagons and throwing a fresh third out). Regarding Phaen, it does make me think, but right now I don't have time to check his posts before the end of this day, but it's something to look into more in day 2.

Regarding redbox, I admit I too may have given the impression they could day talk, purely because someone in the other game I was playing elsewhere said (on day 1) that if he was my scum partner he would have told me to shut the hell up (because I was posting like I was here early on). So it made me think scum could... Incidentally in that game they could too. (Yet nobody spotted that... despite scum not normally being able to day talk).

As it is, my suspicions still lie with Zorblag (but similar to his with Phaen, it's a carry over from the previous player), fuzzy, and jmurph.

As for the fuzzy vote removal, I'm glad Ray did that before I did, if he's not on by late tomorrow, then vote him to oblivion, but considering it's looking like either Zorblag or fuzzy still, he should at least get chance to defend.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, to be honest I hadn't actually realized that my vote was L-1. I'm too tired to be doing this now anyhow so it's just as well that I leave the vote off till tomorrow. I actually do feel like we've got a decent list of suspects from about everyone but I'm not so worried about that but we've still got 24 hours and change so there's no huge hurry just yet.

At this point I expect that I'll recast that same vote tomorrow early afternoon (PST) but we'll see what everyone has to say first I suppose.

And now I'm really off to bed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jmurph3]

2. I want everybody to give their top 1/2 scum read(s)

Top is fuzzy, for reasons plenty mentioned.

I thought Apathy was scummy, and would've hammered on that before the replacement. Thus far I haven't gotten any scumminess from Zorb himself, but as Prana's mentioned, a lot of scumminess carries over from Apathy.

Plenty of other suspicions to go around, none particularly concrete, and none that I would go for a lynch on; therefore, none I want to give too much information on for fear of helping the scum with who they should kill in the night.

I will vote for either a fuzzy or Zorb lynch, whichever direction the rest of the town wishes to go. I agree with Prana that giving fuzzy a chance to defend himself is for the best. So we'll see.

[fuzzylightning]

I speak when spoken to or when I have something worthwhile to say. I don't like to talk to just fill a void. In that regard, Day 1 is always a let's get through this and then analyze for Day 2. In a newbie game I try and post more than normal (although, admittedly not much more) in order to help the newbies understand the mechanics of the game. In response to Zorblag's claim that I don't look at the rest of the players, I do look at every player. However, if I believe that A & B are scum (and that they are scum together) then that means that everyone else is town, so I might not focus on them a whole lot, but that doesn't mean I am not watching them.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a huge poster (either in length or in number). I can tell you that I am town all I want, it is up to you guys to believe me or not.

[fuzzylightning]

EBWOP: My top 2 haven't changed: Apathy/Zorblag and jmurph3

[Phaen]

My top scum suspicions are

1) Apathy/Troll
2) jmurph
3) Skill

[Phaen]

Looks like we've got half the town leaning Apathy/Troll and the other half leaning fuzzy.

The case against fuzzy is weak. I think he's town.
He may not be posting gobs of content, but he didn't in my last game with him either (as town).

Skill is (as usual) undecided and hesitant.
She's the only one who hasn't recently voted for someone who might be a viable lynch for today.

@Skill - Who is scummier between Apathy/Troll and fuzzy?
(And you're right, I should be scumhunting more. I'm just bummed out how many unnecessary days have been tacked onto this day)

[PaltryExcuse]

10 hours and counting;

we need a lynch peoples. Anyone who is not voting should be voting for either fuzzy or Apathy

now

.

[jammer]

The case against fuzzy is weak. I think he's town.
He may not be posting gobs of content, but he didn't in my last game with him either (as town).

Who else been in a game with fuzzy before, and what can you say about his playing style?

I'm looking at Ray. More takers?

[PranaDevil]

Okay, to be honest, fuzzy's responded, but it's not really any kind of defence, just "I reply to questions", and... that's it, there's not really been much from him, I've seen no real searching, and of course everything I've said before.

I'm still highly suspicious of Zorblag through Apathy being in that spot, but as of the here and now... fuzzy would appear to be somewhat of a better lynch to me, and if we (as a town) are still unsure on Zorblag later, we still have the option of a lynch then, but as plenty still view fuzzy as scummy. (Myself included) and he's given his response, I see no reason not to vote him right now.

vote: fuzzylightning

[fuzzylightning]

There really wasn't much there for me to defend myself against. The case against me comes down to, he isn't being as active as we want him to be so therefore he must be scum. I can't really defend myself against that because its my playstyle to not say much on Day 1.

[Zorblag]

So it looks like fuzzylightning is at L-1 at this point. I should be about for much of the rest of the day leading up to the deadline. I will hammer before the deadline hits if the game state doesn't change. There are also a couple more things that I'm interested in right now so I'm going to ask a few questions before doing any hammering on my own.

If someone else chooses to hammer fuzzylightning (or me if I become an option again) I'd like to hear the specific reasons they have for casting their vote; why weren't they voting before and what changed to make the vote make sense when it gets cast.

@fuzzylightning, the problem that I have with your play isn't that you're not looking at all the players (I see that you've at least made comments about everyone and my comment was that you weren't looking hard at everyone) or that you haven't been posting particularly frequently (posting in quantity doesn't particularly give an indication of alignment) but more that you're not putting any pressure that I can see on anyone. Just posting to answer questions or to make occasional observations is a really good tactic for scum to use if they can get away with it. They don't have any real need to stir things up and try to get reactions out of people. They don't have to figure out who the scum is and hence they can afford to hang back. Town on the other hand cede advantage to the scum when they play a passive game.

RayFrost early in the game is actually a really good example of someone who's valuable to the town. He was in there getting reactions, polarizing the town and making sure that we had stances from everyone to look at. In his case he was functioning as sort of an in game lightning rod, drawing criticism and giving us lots of good information to work with down the road. That's a pro-town set of actions. He might still be scum pulling it off well but while he was doing it he also gave us a great set of actions and opinions to compare with what he does in the future.

Just talking to fill the void isn't pro-town. I agree with you on that. What town does need to do is make sure that the information being generated in game is going to be sufficient to make informed decisions on the lynches. That starts with pressure being applied and questions being asked from day one. I do have to admit that I haven't had a chance to take a look at your other games. I haven't even had a chance to go back and read you in isolation this game. I'm judging your play at least in part because you're an IC here and expect ICs to have enough of a tool set as town to actively help their team get a win from day one. Maybe your playstyle is just how your describing it every time you play; if that's true then I apparently find it more helpful for scum than I do town.

It's also true that I didn't really have you first on my list until you made Post 473. Before that I had you behind redbox/Phaen. If you get a chance to say something in the next while I'd love to have you explain a bit more how the town would be better off lynching someone even if they were a power role because they haven't been helpful thus far. I agree that a power role claim shouldn't stop a lynch but that doesn't mean that the town is better off not letting them use their abilities the first night.

@Phaen, given that you have a town reading on fuzzylightning now, how do you think that fuzzylightning's behavior should be different if he was scum? You say that you've seen him play this way as town before so I'm willing to accept that you have an expectation for his town play. Is there any reason that you think he wouldn't do about the same thing day one if he were scum? Is there some way his play benefits the town that you can see that helps your read?

@PranaDevil, do you know if you did anything in the game thread to indicate that you were thinking that scum could day talk in this game? I don't recall seeing any such indications but I could easily have missed them.

I also have an additional thing to point out from this game regarding observations for this game in particular. I disagree with the assertion that town should always play a completely transparent game (I think you made it though it might have been someone else.) Sometimes it's a good idea for members of the town to be slightly deceptive about what their beliefs about the state of the game are to try to get the scum to make sub-optimal choices during the night. Games in which I've done this as town include (though aren't limited to): Newbie Game 845 where I tried to indicate that I had more things to say the next day than I atually did in the hopes that I would be night killed to keep me quiet and Newbie Game 871 where I intentionally overstated the strength of my case on Yankee to make it more likely that he would night kill me if he were scum.

Town shouldn't lie about their roles but that doesn't mean that they should make all of their thoughts perfectly clear. Scum make decisions for night kills and roleblocks based at least in part on what they think the towns opinions are. Being deceptive about that can be helpful so long as it's done in a way which doesn't have any serious danger of hurting the town in the process as well. Mafia is a game of deception and that's not just limited to the scum roles.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh