Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Skill006]

@Skill - I meant that I disagreed with your reads on people and your playstyle so far. I haven't picked up on anything that would actually be a tell, though. Hence the neutral read =/

oh. I thought you were gonna put it in another post 'cause you said "that might go in a seperate post", so I thought it was something controversial. It would still be nice to hear what you disagree with, though (although if you think it'll take away from the thread...)

Wrongo.

I did see that post, but you phrased it as if it wasn't your own case on him. It looked more like you were stating the current arguments against him, and then you were going to post reactions/opinions but never did.

I still don't think its a huge tell, though.

It really isn't a huge tell, but its still contradicting himself, which he apparently finds to be a great scumtell, as he uses it in his attacks a lot. Although, normally, I find the town repetitiveness to be more of a town tell, it depends on the situation.

[Skill006]

In fact, I looked a little back. And noticed you overblow cases(make them look stronger then they are) pretty much anytime.

Totally agree w/ this.
It's not very town-like to blow-up cases, is it?

[Skill006]

...unless you're just really passionate. ^_^

Which he said he wasn't as much, anymore...

[PaltryExcuse]

*cue music*

This post is the one that started worrying me the most about fuzzy:

@Skillz: In a newbie game where I am the IC, I tend to have more informative posts to help people understand game mechanics. If I am addressing a person, I like to keep all of my thoughts condensed into one paragraph rather than bulleting them or only giving two lines at a time. That mostly comes down to the fact that I am used to writing essays for my major, so that is a function of my writing style. As such, I don't believe that I have asked the same question to a single player more than once. Every one of my questions helps me to decide whether or not I believe a person to be town or not, and that is how I scumhunt. By getting people to open up about their case, I can see if their case holds water, or if it is just a sinking ship, which also helps me determine how strongly they believe something.

I can agree with this. Teaching plus, but not really a comment on game. So ignored in favor of good ICing.

@jmurph: You might be getting frustrated, but my case on you really does come down to you aren't posting enough content, and even now, you still aren't. Counting how many people are voting you isn't going to stop them from voting for you.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Upon re-reading, I wouldn't say Ray is defending jmurph. He attacks the case and those jumping on it. Especially considering his 'defense' consists of showing how the case at the time shows jmurph as new, and not scum (although I disagree, but meh, different story). It seems as though you don't like Ray attacking your 'weak case'. Did Ray's 'defense' of jmurph convince you either way of her alignment?

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

You're right, the case wasn't strong enough for a lynch. However, it was the strongest one at the time and it did provoke exactly what your vote attempted to do. I find this contradictory.

@PD: I don't really see how RF was putting words in your mouth. It is not often good to lynch a townie, and resigning yourself to the belief that you are going to lynch a townie is not a pro-town choice.

I also never said that I thought Apathy was tunneling, I was just asking him to expand his views, it is rather hard to tunnel in one short series of posts where I don't believe there was a response to anything he said in there either.

Comments on what happens, and doesn't really say his opinion on either issue.

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

Pretty wishy-washy for 6 1/2 pages of posts.

---

Scary Post #2:

RF: I did have something to say to apathy, I had asked him to elaborate on what it was that he was saying, and to look at other players as well.

PD: Why are you still bringing up a pair of me and apathy when you even admitted that I didn't forget about Apathy and that I have mentioned him. I also don't like how you were mentioning setting up lynches. You have no idea what anyone will flip right now, and therefore should not be looking to lynch someone based on a certain flip, that in itself is inherently scummy. Everything you say is predicated on RF flipping scum, what if he is town?

The stuff at Prana are things I had already mentioned at that point. It's just a repeat of a good point.

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game. Voting with people that you find scummy, is scummy. If you think 2 people are scum, then in a game where we know that there are only 2 scum, how could you then vote for person #3?

I agree with RF on the implication that he is jmurph's partner in RB's post, and that direct implication seems very scummy to me.

I can agree with this.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

You weren't the only one, but you continued the line of thought that I was trying to extend the day for day's sake. I specifically mentioned people who needed to catch up and that I didn't agree with the case on the person who was about to be lynched. Two good reasons to extend the day in my books.

*snip IC teaching*

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Are you saying we shouldn't let replacements catch up? I is confuzzled.

Jammer: I would like to see a true analysis of everyone in this game, including the player that you replaced, as if you were a third party, not just saying they are neutral, and from that, make a list of 3 people that you would put at the top of a "scum list"

Skill: I am now confused that you thought I was confused. I ask questions all game, its how I glean information from people. The answers to my questions often bring up follow up questions which are often the direct result of an answer and therefore, analysis of the answer isn't prudent. I don't like to bring forth information unless I am making a legitimate case against someone, or if it is directly asked of me.

Stuff at Jammer: Standard request.
Stuff at Skill: Has been said before by fuzzy.

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

The contradiction Ray pointed out.

To answer jammer's questions:

I am not liking jmurph. The early talk about her avatar, then non defense of herself (only to be saved by RF), and now the setting up of lynches, which I stated above is scummy, just makes me not like her as town more and more.
I also suspect RB for voting for Person C along with Person A and Person B (both of which he has said he is suspicious of)
My third scummiest read comes from Apathy, he has only posted a couple times and both have been cases against RF with limited mentioning of everyone else

I missed this previously. Hrmm... he actually mentions Apathy as suspicious long before anyone else.

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

The other half of the contradiction.

In these two posts, fuzzy waffles a lot in my mind, and either repeats himself or others. However, one major point in his favor is that from what I can read he's actually the first to put and suspicion on Apathy. I missed this entirely before. I'm still suspicious though. So one point in his favor.

I feel that the most solid case against jmurph was laid down by not-fuzzy, and his claim of being initially suspicious is true but is admittedly weak. Secondly, I still stand by what I said in this post.

tl;dr:
Why Fuzzy would be scum:
Wishy-washy opinions on the majority of players.
Many points made by him were already made by others.
The case he votes for is made by others.
His jump on the Apathy bandwagon seems opportunistic.
My gut (probably not a convincing point for the rest of you).

Why Fuzzy would be town:
First to mention suspicions of two bandwagonned players.
Problem with my thinking - my top two suspects, I don't think, are bussing at all. I highly doubt both could be scum.

Still, I feel jmurph3 is scummier so my vote stays there.

[PaltryExcuse]

Wrongo.

I did see that post, but you phrased it as if it wasn't your own case on him. It looked more like you were stating the current arguments against him, and then you were going to post reactions/opinions but never did.

It kinda is (although I believe point C in the original post is my own). Apathy's posts have been gone through with a fine-toothed comb by three players (phaen, Ray, and Prana) and so I highlighted the points I agreed with and put in one of my own.

[Skill006]

skill's posting is very restricted in what it covers.

GIVE A STANCE ON WHAT IS GOING ON ALREADY!

Um, deflecting little much?
Why do you want to get all the attention on Apathy.
Why don't you respond to skill discrediting your posts.

How is this deflecting?

*shrug* Now I've got to rethink what I was thinking there.
Skill had part of the post about you blowing up a case about jmurph.

Wait...why should you have to rethink anything? You don't know what was going through your brain at that time? We could take that to mean you were just typing something for the sake of attacking him.

[Skill006]

Wrongo.

I did see that post, but you phrased it as if it wasn't your own case on him. It looked more like you were stating the current arguments against him, and then you were going to post reactions/opinions but never did.

It kinda is (although I believe point C in the original post is my own). Apathy's posts have been gone through with a fine-toothed comb by three players (phaen, Ray, and Prana) and so I highlighted the points I agreed with and put in one of my own.

Yeah, point C was your own which was the part that confused me. but its all cleared up now. tnx
(you posted right before me so I have to look through that now...)

[PaltryExcuse]

In fact, I looked a little back. And noticed you overblow cases(make them look stronger then they are) pretty much anytime.

Totally agree w/ this.
It's not very town-like to blow-up cases, is it?

W-w-w-wait. Wise jammer?

In a post 5 days ago

Mafia

jammer
phaen/redbox (more redbox)
|
fuzzylightning
apathy
|
RayFrost
pranadevil
jmurph

You can secede some points to a scummy player (cause people can make sense through lies) but we still haven't seen that case on jammer. Do you find him more town now? Why did you find him scummy? If your opinion has changed, why?

Secondly, @Ray:

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

Who had said that at that point? (And as it turned out, Skill had just said 'not scum' at that point.)

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

Apathy (

3

) : Phaen, RayFrost, fuzzylightning
jmurph3 (

1

) : PaltryExcuse
RayFrost (

1

) : Apathy
fuzzylightning (

1

) : jammer

Not Voting (

3

) : Skill006, jmurph3, PranaDevil

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[fuzzylightning]

Bolding is my response to his post. I took out the contradiction as that has already been previously discussed, not discounting the point, just not in the mood to repeat myself again.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Upon re-reading, I wouldn't say Ray is defending jmurph. He attacks the case and those jumping on it. Especially considering his 'defense' consists of showing how the case at the time shows jmurph as new, and not scum (although I disagree, but meh, different story). It seems as though you don't like Ray attacking your 'weak case'. Did Ray's 'defense' of jmurph convince you either way of her alignment?

By attacking the case, he was indirectly defending jmurph. He basically undermined what I was trying to do at the time. It wasn't so much Ray's defense that did anything by way of determining my view on jmurph's alignment, as it was jmurph's lack of a defense after the other votes on the bandwagon.

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

You're right, the case wasn't strong enough for a lynch. However, it was the strongest one at the time and it did provoke exactly what your vote attempted to do. I find this contradictory.

What did you find contradictory there, it was more of an advisory post, and plus, my vote was not meant to bring on a bandwagon, because at L-2 (which was what she was at after you and PD voted) scum, albeit stupid scum, can steamroll a lynch.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

You weren't the only one, but you continued the line of thought that I was trying to extend the day for day's sake. I specifically mentioned people who needed to catch up and that I didn't agree with the case on the person who was about to be lynched. Two good reasons to extend the day in my books.

That's fine, but once again, more of an advisory post

*snip IC teaching*

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Are you saying we shouldn't let replacements catch up? I is confuzzled.

In that post, I was merely saying that just because someone is getting replaced, it doesn't mean that they can't be lynched just because you want to see what the replacement will say, if that slot is scum, nothing is going to change that.

tl;dr:
Why Fuzzy would be scum:
Wishy-washy opinions on the majority of players.

I have expressed who I think are my top suspects for scum, therefore, I think it stands to reason that the other players would be town. Why should I have to state that?

Many points made by him were already made by others.

That's because most of the time, my posts came after the "action" has already happened, so others had a chance to chime in before me. It doesn't mean my thoughts are not my own.

The case he votes for is made by others.

If you are referring to jmurph, my vote was there long before, just didn't move because I didn't see a better place for it.

His jump on the Apathy bandwagon seems opportunistic.

As you said yourself, I expressed suspicion on him long before anyone else. The time that I moved my vote was when I believed that he was scummier than the person that my vote had been previously on.

My gut (probably not a convincing point for the rest of you).

Can't really say anything about your gut

[Skill006]

W-w-w-wait. Wise jammer?

'cause he caught something that ray does a lot but no one points him out for. The quote I quoted was commended for "wiseness".

You can secede some points to a scummy player (cause people can make sense through lies) but we still haven't seen that case on jammer. Do you find him more town now? Why did you find him scummy? If your opinion has changed, why?

Case On Jammer

Well, I don't find him any more "town-ish" at this point. His "scum reads" were a bit weak, and he does more agreeing than jmurph does (and tries to hide the fact that he does it).

fuzzy: I see a lot of questions, and a lack of analysis.
I got the idea his posts are filled with questions towards others and a lot of text that to me they seem like a useless filler.
My interpretation is scum, that does a act on finding scum. I see rather little if any in his posts that would help me in finding scum.
The case on jmurph started weak, that's not bad as it was rather early in-game. The problem I more have with it, that when he is referring to jmurph, and reasons for voting her, as bad town, and not so much as possible scum.
I also don't like the contradiction, putting a FoS on prana for attacking RF, and later calling it town vs. town fight.

I say scum right here.

jmurph3:
Lot of useless talking in the start.
A OMGUS on one of her voters.
Did not defend herself because she thought defending yourself seems scummy.
Followed Apathy vote on RayFrost.(I think she decently explained later why she did, though.
Lynching Ray, and looking at redbox if Frost flips town, looks really really bad.

Scummy.

He was restating other people's suspicions at that point. Of course, he

had

just replaced in, but that doesn't mean he should not bring anything of his own in.

Basically the scummy stuff.
He accuses Prana for pushing hard on Ray together with Ray as his prime suspect.
Wishy washy ness with redbox, skill and fuzzy.
Not willing to respond to points from prana, RF.

Stuff other people said...

The 'OMG ur role-fishing' bit is blown up. The VT could been made at the time as something shorter then towny. Altough, VT does mean vanilla towny I could easily see someone making the mistake.
(towny is not a role, vanilla towny is a role.)

If this is talking about apathy, I have no idea what he's reffering to...

Calling it a playing style is not going to stop me suspecting someone.

This is good, actually. I can see the view of this.

Why would she only get suspicious of redbox when Ray flips town. It doesn't seem she considers changing votes at all. (to me)It seems she wants to close the door this day for a redbox lynch, and will open it completely if Ray is lynched as town.
I believe Ray started suspecting redbox, jmurph listing redbox as a second suspect seems strange. Why mention that you would suspect redbox most if Ray gets lynched <b>and<b/> flips town. You're not sure at all of your suspicion if you think about lynching the one he suspected before he flipped. And at the same time pretty set on a Ray-lynch.

Already went over this bit, but the assuming of jmurph saying things ahe didn't say NOR imply. Plus, he was hopping on to ray/prana's argument for this one, to use it as his own against jmurph.

Idd, I'm assuming, what you say is a possible explanation.
I didn't mean to state what I said as a fact merely trying to get out why I thought it was suspicious.
Note I'm not 100% sure my reasoning is the right one. If it was, it is with the 'lieing'(it would mean she lied heavily about what she meant) from her. Enough to place a vote on her.
The conclusions I get are majorly set on the assumption jmurph is lining up lynches.

Basically saying here "yeah, I assumed, but that still is my reasoning against her, and it is enough for a vote" Or at least I think he's saying that, 'cause if he is...what kind of logic

is

that?

*shrug* Now I've got to rethink what I was thinking there.
Skill had part of the post about you blowing up a case about jmurph.

And I already touched up on this bit. (post 530)

Don't have time to summarize the case. Don't have time to repeat my questions for jammer. (That I reelly want him to answer). I have to go watch a musical/eat breakfast. Peace.

[jmurph3]

tl;dr:
Why Fuzzy would be scum:
Wishy-washy opinions on the majority of players.
Many points made by him were already made by others.
The case he votes for is made by others.
His jump on the Apathy bandwagon seems opportunistic.
My gut (probably not a convincing point for the rest of you).

Why Fuzzy would be town:
First to mention suspicions of two bandwagonned players.
Problem with my thinking - my top two suspects, I don't think, are bussing at all. I highly doubt both could be scum.

Honestly, Paltry, I don't think either of your two reasons for why Fuzzy would be town are particularly good. And if, after your long post and going back through everything, those are the only two reasons you came up with, that kind of confirms the suspicions that I have.

And while I think I've mentioned this before, I think it's worth repeating:

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

Regarding the Apathy claim: The way I see it, he has been very scummy in my opinion to this point in the game, and if he does happen to claim a power role, we have to evaluate a) how he has played to this point (scummy), b) will he get better on subsequent days (personally, doubt it) c) are we better off as a town with or without Apathy as a PR. My opinion on C is, I think we are better off without him regardless, because I haven't seen anything from him at all. The only positive from letting him live as a PR is that it makes scum "waste" a kill on eliminating PR-Apathy.

Twice now has fuzzy called for a lynch, knowing that either person could in fact be town, for the sheer fact of uselessness. The only people that I know who would actually call for a lynch of town is scum.

That, and, by his own logic, and by the fact that his post have thus far contributed essentially nothing to the game, he is also useless...

My suspicions have grown to the point where I think fuzzy is much scummier than Apathy. His most recent post still doesn't add anything and barely provides any kind of defense against what Paltry said.

Therefore,

vote: fuzzylightning

. See this post, this post, and this post for more of my case.

[PaltryExcuse]

@fuzzy: My scum-read on you dropped considerably when I found that comment on Apathy. I was actually planning on voting you before finding that... but it changed my mind.
Plus, with a little meta reading, I find you're a bit more aggressive in other town games. But I really don't put that much into meta without playing a game with someone first.

The thing about you repeating others' arguments is that you do it consistently. Whether you agree with majority or not is up to opinion, however, I don't see much in the way of independence in your reasoning when you're not doing the IC thing. I, admittedly, will miss a day and come back with different points than others who have been posting consistently. Phaen seems to come up with a different point of view despite replacing in.

What I find contradictory about you advising me and Prana to not bandwagon so quickly is that the bandwagon itself inspired the response from others I thought you would want as town. The point you had wasn't a bad one for that point in the game and, although not lynch worthy, was worth some pressure. About the L-2 quicklynch, I can't see it happening as we seem to have thinking players (even at that point) so scum wouldn't be that foolhardy.

Honestly, Paltry, I don't think either of your two reasons for why Fuzzy would be town are particularly good. And if, after your long post and going back through everything, those are the only two reasons you came up with, that kind of confirms the suspicions that I have.

I disagree. The first is a small counter to the claim that fuzzy isn't acting completely independently. And the second one is pretty convincing to me as if I don't see bussing happening, and my two top scum reads are attacking one another, I know I'm wrong on at least one.

[PranaDevil]

I've said my pieces on fuzzy already, (same as I have on Apathy, and jmurph, and redbox... hell, on pretty much everyone, multiple times over).

The fact he was the initial mention of two bandwaggoned players doesn't mean he could be town. He could be scum subtly pointing out something to get others to dive into the action so he doesn't appear to be pushing the lynch that strongly.

One thing I will say is that it's the 20th, we have until the 24th (and to be safe, I'd suggest that we make the decision on the 23rd just in case someone comes on half hour after the deadline's over and finds the thread locked), otherwise we end with a no lynch, and after everything that's gone on in D1 so far, it would have all amounted to nothing if we no lynch.

So I propose that we give until the end of Tuesday to make our final decisions. I'd be against a no lynch, and at this stage my two highest suspects are Apathy and fuzzy, and while I, personally, would rather see an Apathy lynch (though this is prior to the in depth post we've been routinely promised), if town as a whole prefers the fuzzy one, I would be okay with that at this stage (due to the whole time running out on things issue).

As for Apathy's in depth post, I would like to see that posted by end of day Monday so everyone waiting on it can make their final decisions prior to deciding the lynch on Tuesday (if it hasn't been decided by then of course).

[Skill006]

Twice now has fuzzy called for a lynch, knowing that either person could in fact be town, for the sheer fact of uselessness. The only people that I know who would actually call for a lynch of town is scum.

Day 1 lynches are rarely scum, so someone who isn't contributing to the discussion or someone who is playing anti-town-ishly would be ok lynches, especially if we have nothing else to go on. Its better than a no-lynch, especially with the possibility of actually hitting scum. Besides, scum

want

to keep useless town players around.

I'd be ok with an apathy lynch at this point (prior to the long awaited post, that is). Btw, how long should we wait for him? Wouldn't it be kinda sad/frustrating if someone had to replace him? (i'm not up for lynching lurkers but we're 4 days, almost 3, from deadline)

I'm not too clear on the case on jmurph, actually. I know there's a bit on her agreeing too much and not enough of her own independent thought, but I'm not sure what else is making her so scummy (lining up lynches<--weak case, btw) so right now, opposed to that lynch.

Fuzzy lynch is better than no lynch, but apathy would be better (though he's not my main suspect). He only posts when someone directs some attention on him, and he's always in the defensive position, which doesn't really help us progress. And his form of scumhunting seems to only help him.

What did you find contradictory there, it was more of an advisory post, and plus, my vote was not meant to bring on a bandwagon,

because at L-2 (which was what she was at after you and PD voted) scum, albeit stupid scum, can steamroll a lynch.

I also don't see why you were worried at those two (pe and pd) hopping on to apply pressure. And this "stupid scum" you speak of would be lynched the next day if they hammered jmurph that early in the game.

[RayFrost]

Secondly, @Ray:

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

Who had said that at that point? (And as it turned out, Skill had just said 'not scum' at that point.)

not scum = town as far as I think.

I feel that anybody not outright agreeing with the case and voting me thinks that I'm not scum.

not cum means town

[RayFrost]

god that's an evil typo...

not

s

cum

[RayFrost]

god, too much to read after the post I quoted and responded to above.

I'll do it later. /procrastination

[PranaDevil]

Twice now has fuzzy called for a lynch, knowing that either person could in fact be town, for the sheer fact of uselessness. The only people that I know who would actually call for a lynch of town is scum.

Day 1 lynches are rarely scum, so someone who isn't contributing to the discussion or someone who is playing anti-town-ishly would be ok lynches, especially if we have nothing else to go on. Its better than a no-lynch, especially with the possibility of actually hitting scum. Besides, scum

want

to keep useless town players around.

Without wanting to stray into WIFOM territory... wouldn't scum want to at least "appear" to be scum hunting? Thus pushing for a lynch on "useless" townies is a benefit to them.

However, more importantly (to me at least) is the first part of that paragraph... okay, Day 1 lynches are rarely scum, true. But why does that make "lynch so-and-so, they're being useless" somehow a worthwhile strategy?

We don't need to just lynch someone for being useless, or not contributing, or playing anti-town-ishly, because we do have quite a wide array of things to go on. At this stage anyone who hasn't got some good suspicions on a minimum of 2 people hasn't been reading the thread.

Actually, I just went over Skill's posts, and something struck me (no, I'm not bruised, but thanks for the concern). Skills lack of any real voting, or lack of any serious scum hunting (and pretty much universal defending of everyone) has been mentioned, as has her admission at the start that she's not a good scum hunter.

But this one seems to have bypassed us all:

I don't jump on bandwagons, period. Even when I know the victim is scum (yeah, I know, real smart). Well, I guess you wouldn't know this.

So people can look it up, it's this post

So, a quick rundown of some facts Skill has mentioned of herself in this game:

- Bad at scum hunting (Possible cover?)
- Has done no voting since RVS.
- Solely defending people, not hunting (Possibly trying to keep everyone on side?)
- Refuses to jump on a bandwagon, even when she "knows" the victim is scum.

How would she even "know" the victim is scum short of being their scum buddy? And even if it's just a turn of phrase (possible, but a strange wording, as "think" would be better for a town player surely, as none of us know who is scum and who isn't), that doesn't scream pro-town to me... in fact it's decidedly scummy, as the one and only way for town to win, is for us to have a majority vote for scum, the only way to do that, is to have a bandwagon form to lynch them.

With all that, Skill has jumped right to near the top of my list of potential scum. Which to me leaves 3 possibilities for lynching now (Apathy, fuzzy, or Skill).

[Skill006]

Yay, suspicion on me

But why does that make "lynch so-and-so, they're being useless" somehow a worthwhile strategy?

Not exactly a "worthwhile strategy", but moreso I could understand his PoV. At the time of this one:

useless town is second preferred lynch to scum

[vote on jmurph, btw] there wasn't much suspicion on anyone else, and like he said, its second preferred.

My opinion on C is, I think we are better off without him regardless, because I haven't seen anything from him at all. The only positive from letting him live as a PR is that it makes scum "waste" a kill on eliminating PR-Apathy.

If they aren't being help to town, why keep them? Not helping town doesn't equal scum all the time, but not only is there chance that apathy

is

scum, but useless town can be dead weight in cases like lylo. I'm not saying "kill all useless townies, they are only weight". It just depends on the situation, and it seems to make sense on fuzzy's case.

- Bad at scum hunting (Possible cover?)

I have a confidence defect >.> It prohibits me from saying anything good about myself. And I used that as a cover in my last game and it did NOT go well, so I wouldn't use that ever again even if I was scum.

- Has done no voting since RVS.

Well, right now I'm not voting anyone because apathy is making us wait(s'already been two days) and I want to see jammer's defense for my case.

Your argument with Ray I wasn't around for, so no votes there.
After the argument, while I scanned things, only redbox caught my attention as scummy.

Although I would have placed a vote, he hadn't posted since after I came back. I wanted to see some sort of defense from him (as I usually do) before placing any kind of vote on him (or any case, for that matter T.T) Then, of course he got replaced.

I was also susicious of jammer for awhile now, but he put up a good defense from my attacks on him, that seemed to make sense. But I though I probably didn't ask the right questions, because I couldn't shake off this gut feeling. So now, I prodeth him some more.

...So I didn't vote because of a mix of what I just explained and my dislike of voting.

With all that being said, I really should vote. It's not gonna kill anybody and I need to get over myself.

vote:jammer

Not only am I suspicious because of my case, but he needs to start talking. He has the least amount of stuff in this thread, now, and I could almost call him out for active lurking if it weren't for the fact that I'm pretty convinced he is gone due to RL issues.

- Solely defending people, not hunting (Possibly trying to keep everyone on side?)

Yeah, I do tend to do this (real life, games, anything). Aside from that, though, I try to turn my defenses into attacks of the other person's arguments. To see how the other person comes back at me/victim. In addition, I like to stand up for something I believe to be right, to weigh in my opinion on something (even if it doesn't concern me)

- Refuses to jump on a bandwagon,

Yep. Normally people under pressure look like town for some reason, and thats always the people who are being BW-->useless me, never votes. I know, people can't get lynched without a BW. I guess not jumping on BWs is just another personality defect that I really need to fight off (as this is just a game). So, no adequate defense for this bit.

even when she "knows" the victim is scum.

Haha, this was just a refernce-joke to my last game. I was cop last game and I investigated Ray, who was scum. I formed a BW on him, then promptly jumped off when he got to L-1 (never again). It was quite silly of me.

[jmurph3]

Twice now has fuzzy called for a lynch, knowing that either person could in fact be town, for the sheer fact of uselessness. The only people that I know who would actually call for a lynch of town is scum.

Day 1 lynches are rarely scum, so someone who isn't contributing to the discussion or someone who is playing anti-town-ishly would be ok lynches, especially if we have nothing else to go on. Its better than a no-lynch, especially with the possibility of actually hitting scum. Besides, scum

want

to keep useless town players around.

While I can see the point that scum would want to keep useless town players around, it still seems suspicious that given as we

have

other evidence, that the uselessness would factor in so heavily as opposed to other things.

Yay, suspicion on me

But why does that make "lynch so-and-so, they're being useless" somehow a worthwhile strategy?

Not exactly a "worthwhile strategy", but moreso I could understand his PoV. At the time of this one:

useless town is second preferred lynch to scum

[vote on jmurph, btw] there wasn't much suspicion on anyone else, and like he said, its second preferred.

My opinion on C is, I think we are better off without him regardless, because I haven't seen anything from him at all. The only positive from letting him live as a PR is that it makes scum "waste" a kill on eliminating PR-Apathy.

If they aren't being help to town, why keep them? Not helping town doesn't equal scum all the time, but not only is there chance that apathy

is

scum, but useless town can be dead weight in cases like lylo. I'm not saying "kill all useless townies, they are only weight". It just depends on the situation, and it seems to make sense on fuzzy's case.

I still disagree. While I can agree with fuzzy's vote early on to get me talking/involved, moving from that to "let's lynch her, she's useless" (paraphrasing) in only a very short time (and let us remember that this was very early on in the game) seems suspicious, especially when he brings it up for his "case" on Apathy. it seems like everytime he doesn't have a strong case, he brings up the relative uselessness of a player.

Not to mention, as I already have, that by his logic, and now by your own, fuzzy is, IMO, just as useless as Apathy. While his "playstyle" is to keep things to himself and just ask questions, from what I have seen this is not helping town.

[fuzzylightning]

@jmurph: I never said to lynch you because you were useless, so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. I only outlined that point in the event that Apathy tried claiming a power role, and never used it in reference to you.

[jmurph3]

@jmurph: I never said to lynch you because you were useless, so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. I only outlined that point in the event that Apathy tried claiming a power role, and never used it in reference to you.

Um, actually, here's what you said:

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

While you say that you still think I'm scum, you do emphasize that even if I wasn't, you would still vote for me because I'm useless. Thus saying that you would lynch me because I'm useless. Your words, not mine.

[PaltryExcuse]

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

While you say that you still think I'm scum, you do emphasize that even if I wasn't, you would still vote for me because I'm useless. Thus saying that you would lynch me because I'm useless. Your words, not mine.

If we're arguing semantics, it reads to me that fuzzy says your scummiest in his mind, and then gives a worst-case scenario if he's wrong. (A little covering of his own butt, but not your interpretation.)

Secondly, one of the most common ways, in my mind, for scum to add a little bit of unwarranted authority to their case is by linking to the wiki.

And to quote from the wiki on the definition of tunnel vision,

Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them.

which, IMO, is what you've been doing.

This doesn't really build on a case against fuzzy even if he was. (Example, if you think Prana is likely town, he has admittedly tunneled. Joy upon joys.) Tunneling is done by town, and not by scum. For scum, it's just building a bad case. You actually don't refute, in my mind, anything that's said. When ever you defend yourself, it comes down to a difference in opinion. Well, IMO, you're most likely scum.

I humbly petition a lynch on jmurph3. Join me in glory.

[jmurph3]

And to quote from the wiki on the definition of tunnel vision,

Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them.

which, IMO, is what you've been doing.

This doesn't really build on a case against fuzzy even if he was. (Example, if you think Prana is likely town, he has admittedly tunneled. Joy upon joys.) Tunneling is done by town, and not by scum. For scum, it's just building a bad case. You actually don't refute, in my mind, anything that's said. When ever you defend yourself, it comes down to a difference in opinion. Well, IMO, you're most likely scum.

I humbly petition a lynch on jmurph3. Join me in glory.

I wasn't really using this to build a case on fuzzy. I was actually using this to argue against his case on me.

And to be honest, isn't this game really about differences in opinion? You can read something one player says one way, and get town out of it, whereas I can read the same thing a different way, and get scum out of it. One of us will be wrong. In this case, it's you.