I'm just frustrated over a number of things, and this is included.
[non-germane comments removed - Ray]
Whether or not your case is bad is irrelevant to tunnel vision.
Tunnel vision is when you are focused extremely upon one player to the point that you ignore the rest of the people in the game to a large extent, dismissing a multitude of potentially scummy actions of other players because you think this person is scum and Nothing Will Convince You Otherwise (tm).
Singling an individual out is fine, but then focusing purely upon them and not really looking elsewhere is dangerous.
That's bad play, even if the person ends up as scum.
Now, I need to calm the fook down.
Be back in an hour, maybe? Calmness helps logic, though it doesn't make my instinct better (instinct votes from me are ftw).
spoiler, non game related
Eh, I know yo have nothing against me personally, and I wasn't attempting to say otherwise and nor do I blieve otherwise.
My frustration is born of You Are Wrong Syndrome (c). Because you are wrong.
But at least there's nothing personal there. I just felt you were taking it personal, or throwing stuff at me personally.
However I stand by my view that you're scum, but I still don't believe that I'm not paying attention to other players comments and such (and have mentioned things that even you have said that I think could be worth following up on).
I'm definitely not dismissing other players scummy actions. But there is times when you need to decide on who is the most scummy out of them all, and I do honestly believe it is Ray (as others seem to as well).
But you're off for an hour or so, but it's almost 3:30am here, so I'll be heading to be shortly, so will catch up in the morrow most likely then.
Just to keep things freshly in mind, here are the lines:
RayFrost (SE): His vote switching and general muckraking lead me to figure he is just poking everything in sight with a stick to see if something crawls out. So far his actions seem to me to be things a scumhunter might do moreso than things scum might do.
jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.
You decide; did I say Ray and jmurph3 are a scum team or has Ray misrepresented my words?
Also, please note that I did
not
say I thought jmurph necessarily had an experienced partner, only that she herself was inexperienced.
The fact I listed everyone but had no read on some people still seems to be causing some consternation. I tried to explain, by quoting you (Ray), that I listed everyone
because
you said leaving someone out of a list is scummy ... but now you say don't use quotes because they clutter things up and confuse you. Indeed, it confusing when you dispute your own words.
Wasn't it you who said overdefensivness is scummy? Do you mean stuff like "You voted for me and put me in danger so not only are you the worst of the scum, the next guy who votes for me is absolutely scum."
I will grant that my John von Neumann comment may have been pretty obscure. For those who don't know, he invented game theory, a very heavy duty deal requiring highly advanced mathematical training to fully grasp - those of us who took Bonehead Math ain't gonna absorb it. Sooo ... my point was that Apathy's posts are so deep that I just plain am unable to follow them, I think because I lack a strong enough foundation in the game theory aspects of this game. I think he is very smart and I will be paying a great deal of attention to his conclusions, but I have so far been unable to follow much of his logic.
As for the fact that I switched my vote and voted with people I had previously suspected as scummy, well, maybe I've changed my mind about them, or maybe I haven't, and maybe I think your partner may be strongly considering throwing you under the bus as a lost cause ... but your outrageous misrepresentaions of my statements and your emotionally loaded pre-emptive bullying of anyone else who might be inclined to vote to lynch you and your screaming kicking overdefensiveness (to the point of apologizing to the Mod and threatening to start a thread telling the whole world how bad the rest of us play) when you feel in danger only tend to confirm my suspicion. I figure this is the first time you have been found out so early and are having a hard time dealing with the thought that a bunch of noobs outted you.
Let's not leave out the (perhaps convenient?) fact that somebody who wasn't participating much suddenly shows up requesting a reprieve for you- throw another monkey wrench in there.
I'm tired now - please don't consider anything I haven't touched upon as having been avoided, I just haven't gotten to everything ... somewhere in there somebody asked me who I thought Prana's partner in crime was; at the time of that post, I thought it was probably jmurph.
Welcome to the new guy. Fine can of worms you've jumped into.
Hello all, I'm Dutch and I think I'm generally in a other timezone then the rest of you, so I might be active on other times. You can basically call me anything as far it looks anything like my user-name.
Starting up reads, about the 2 major wagons.
RayFrost
, is fairly active. One problem I got with him is his fairly high noise/info ratio at the start of the game. He started to become serious somewhere in the middle of the game. At a time he already had a few votes. ~scummy
The way he defended jumurph, he opposed it when the wagon got 3 votes quickly and voted the last one voting it. ~towny
AtE(I want to get lynched, I'm gonna make a topic about tunneling if you're town, the one hammering me is scum) ~leaning scum
Calling himself town over and over ~mildly scummy
Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?
jmurph
jmurph3 wrote:....., I consider over defense and over talking to be scumtell, in my real life experience, hence why I'm not doing either of those. Now, I've read Ray's previous games and thus know that this is the way he goes. Hence why I did not turn what I said into a formal vote.
Doing something not because you think it is scummy is pretty much how mafia is thinking. If you're town you should not be concerned being scummy, be concerned with finding mafia.
I globally agree with RF stance on post 128 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 32#2094832
Where'as I think you're the old TV slowly starting up. (e.g. you don't know how to start)
For that reason the wagon is a bad wagon, although, I don't think quick bandwagons say much about alignment. I've seen enough quick wagons on scum.
In any case, I haven't seen anything that really convinces me she is scum.
PranaDevil
Generally I see town, I see scum-hunting. He's somewhat to much focused on RF.
About the majority of other players, I got a pretty neutral read. I can still swing both sides. ~jmurph being one of them~
PaltryExcuse wrote:I'm going to continue the analysis tomorrow, but I would like to say that it is in our best interest to let RayFrost claim if someone is going to hammer.
(This game is moving seriously fast if we lynch so soon. We have a 3 week deadline. Let's use some more of it folks.)
Noone is going to hammer, yet. The "don't lynch continue discussion, we got 3 weeks." argument is rubbish, it stalls the game, if there is a majority ready to lynch someone, a lynch should happen.
Many think more discussion is better and improves town odds. Problem with more talking is that any scummy things get harder to be found in the ocean of posts. The usefulness degrades if you forcefully extend the thread. It also gets harder and harder to get a complete picture of someone when the thread gets bigger and bigger. You miss connections between players more easily.
Deadlines are there to stop some games from being completely stalled, and they are 3 weeks because many newbie games also feature a lot of replacements, it is not a reason to make every day 3 weeks.
I've been in a game where 10pages/dag was not uncommon, in short I can say that it did not really favor town.
I'm back (again!), and this time things are rather tense. Oh, and welcome Jammer! Are you an SE? (i saw your status was mafia scum, so). I just wanted to reply to this right off the bat since I saw it first:
Noone is going to hammer, yet. The "don't lynch continue discussion, we got 3 weeks." argument is rubbish, it stalls the game, if there is a majority ready to lynch someone, a lynch should happen.
I disagree w/ this. Although it makes it harder to look through the thread amidst the clutter, if we're careful, more discussion helps town. There have been a heap of people (including myself) who have not posted yet, and it would be unfair to those people to lynch now. And on the note, "it gives scum a chance to dig themselves out of their holes", it also gives scum a chance to screw up. It's just safer and better for us to discuss more.
pranadevil wrote:For the sake of expanding skill, why don't you think Ray is scum?
jammer wrote:Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?
It's his playstyle, IMO. Honestly, whether he is scum or town, he plays defensively. However, I don't like how he is discrediting prana's arguments.
redbox wrote:flattering him through imitation ...
when did I imitate him
redbox wrote:Skill006: Obviously infatuated with Ray and his swashbuckling ways, flattering him through imitation ... and likely to be totally blind to any faults he may display. I hope they're on the same side or our little drama could turn out to be a tragedy. She seems much too sincere to be leading a double life.
I tend to feel bad for the people who are being attacked, which tends to be RayFrost. And he was the only one I recognized @ the start, so i appeared "infatuated", I guess.
I don't like how apathy has virtually only posted twice. Despite all the beef on them, it seems like he is actively lurking. He could be masking his actions by huge posts.
prana, I believe, is town with a totally diff view of how to play/read into things than others. But he really needs to look at other players right now, trying to lynch somebody so soon, when other people have hardly spoken is not a wise course of action. There's no need to be rash.
I will post more tonight, I was typing this while I was supposed to be doing math ^.^;
Unfortunately jammer, I can't seem to get much information out of that post really other than stuff we've already kind of discussed, in that the only one showing signs of true scumness is Ray, and others are either neutral, or just "not as scummy so far"
Although you do mention that stretching the day out doesn't favour town, and I was trying to think up the best way of putting it, so thankyou for doing so, I do feel that a long stall wont help matters in finding scum.
Which actually made me suspect PE, not because he wanted to hold off on a lynch of Ray, because obviously, if you suspect someone might not be scum, you wouldn't want to quick lynch, and I can respect that from his POV. However, the "lets use more of the 3 week deadline" made me wonder why, why stretch out time for scum to cover their tracks and confuse everyone?
I wouldn't be surprised to nail PE as a potential co-mafia with Ray based on that. But it would be a weak case to bring forward based solely on that as I can, in theory, understand wanting to at least let others at least comment on this situation.
Oh, and jammer, don't worry about being dutch, you're only an hour ahead of me, I'm just the type of dopey fool who stays up until gone 3am normally XD.
@prana: did you see my post? You don't have to call it "stalling" btw, it's not as if it's set in stone that ray is gonna be lynched.
fuzzy and apathy haven't come back. They have no say in the matter? Maybe if you give them a chance, they can convince people to switch votes, etc. Or they may look scummier than ray, who knows.
Sorry skill, I hadn't seen your post when I posted. Had planned to hit preview and wound up misclicking and hitting submit, lol.
You say I have a different view on how to play/read into things, but I don't really see that, people have actively agreed with some of my views, and you, yourself, have said you don't like how Ray's discrediting my points.
Is there any examples you can show that I've actually had a different view of reading something compared to others? And if so, would you say it's been a bad thing overall?
If I do spot something others haven't, that to me, is good and worth bringing up.
As for Apathy, you make a very good point about him only doing 2 posts, that is something I'll admit I did miss because there was a lot of posts by him, but most of them were asking to fix the previous ones. But it does make me wonder if he could be scum lurking too now. However it could also be that he just doesn't get much chance to post and thus does so in a big post when able.
I can also understand skill feeling a connection (infatuated is the wrong word) with someone you know. If I were playing here and landed in a game with someone I already knew (markish or Leech are the only two on the site that I actively know that I've seen around, but more could be here) then I would likely establish an early connection with them prior to the end of RVS. So that wouldn't be scummy in any way.
As for someone else potentially seeming scummier than Ray, it's possible, but in all honesty, unlikely. I'm trying not to say too much about Ray now as my feelings on that lynch are well known above, and going over old ground for about the tenth time would be pointless at this stage, it's known I want Ray lynched, and feel everything he's said about my points have (like you say) just been attempted to be discredited rather than actively defended. Thus my decision there is unlikely to change.
As for Apathy and fuzzy having a say, Apathy already has pretty much, even before it got heated he was voting Ray, so really it's more fuzzy we're waiting for, and while there's some possibility on him, it's not strong.
Sorry skill, I hadn't seen your post when I posted. Had planned to hit preview and wound up misclicking and hitting submit, lol.
s'ok ^_^
You say I have a different view on how to play/read into things, but I don't really see that, people have actively agreed with some of my views, and you, yourself, have said you don't like how Ray's discrediting my points.
It's not your points or views, just your line of thinking as a town player (assuming you are town). The best example was the eagerness to lynch. Usually town want to wait to lynch somebody, and get more discussion going. With more discussion, you can here what all the town members have to say, where everyone stands, and feel more unified as a town.
apathy wrote:However it could also be that he just doesn't get much chance to post and thus does so in a big post when able.
that's why I'm waiting for him to post. It seems like that may be the case.
As for Apathy and fuzzy having a say, Apathy already has pretty much, even before it got heated he was voting Ray, so really it's more fuzzy we're waiting for, and while there's some possibility on him, it's not strong.
I can see where you're coming from, and I will admit I do get a bit single minded in the "look, I have this here, let's do this" and wind up being a bit eager. I do think that things like the marathon games will be more my cup of tea here really, or at least games with shorter days. While the ones with long deadlines are good for those who have lots of other stuff going on, someone who's sitting at home bored like me winds up thinking about it more than others may, thus once I'm at point Z, everyone else could well still only be reading point D, lol.
I do feel that lots of discussion doesn't help us though, for the reasons jammer posted, but then different people have different views on it, I've seen as much reading through various games where people have wanted to keep discussion going and stated that's a benefit, and others where people wanted to only say anything relevant once out of the RVS to keep from giving scum too much information as well. I guess it depends on playstyles in that sense.
I do feel that lots of discussion doesn't help us though, for the reasons jammer posted, but then different people have different views on it, I've seen as much reading through various games where people have wanted to keep discussion going and stated that's a benefit, and others where people wanted to only say anything relevant once out of the RVS to keep from giving scum too much information as well. I guess it depends on playstyles in that sense.
But the game is supposed to be about discussion. Lots of it won't kill us to read. Maybe you put too little faith in your future self, and feel scum will be able to cover their tracks. But it's not as if scum will brainwash us if we don't squish them as soon as we can.
And if we keep lynching someone as soon as we find them scummy, we don't consider that other people can just slip under your skin by agreeing with you. While you're so focused on Ray, you're not really fingering redbox and jmurph's posts, and they can hide under your shadow. Besides, the less townies we can avoid lynching, the better.
Oh yeah it's about discussion, be stupid for us to all rush in vote and run off again after lynching someone purely based on who "looks" scummiest based on player name or something. But there comes a point you have to ask "is expanding discussion going to better this lynch or not?"
However, I will accept that we haven't had a great deal of input from others, and while I do think we should lynch Ray, we've done a lot in a short space of time, much quicker than most games get anywhere near a strong lynch, and some people perhaps do need to throw their views in the hat more.
Plus I will apologize to Ray, not because I don't think he's scum, I think he's the scummiest scum we have right now (:p), but because looking back I have been a little hot headed and "he's scum, lynch him" with it, and not focusing on others so much. I think that's part in how he responded to me (as it kept my focus on him, which is why I find him scummy) but by creating it into a big thing between me and him it's prevented me looking elsewhere as much as perhaps I should be.
Not that I haven't been looking at other things, although I will admit that a few times it's been based off the Ray issue more than anything else, and if by chance he does flip town then it would be somewhat harder to get a reading on others.
If I'm honest, I think I needed the sleep last night so I could go back into things with a clearer head than I had prior to doing so too.
So based on that, I will agree, a little holding back to get a bit more information may be useful, we don't need to delay the full three weeks as that would just be ridiculous as I feel the game is active enough to not need anywhere near that length for a day, but a bit of time to see where other people lie and such, then yes, fair enough.
@Skill, yes, I would qualify as a SE. But, I got the status mafia scum from my first game.
Some players got less then 10 posts, PE wanted to finish a analysis. Game started only 4 days ago. I need to see a game from RF.
Sorry if I left a wrong impresion. I don't like the idea of waiting till deadline to lynch, but a instant lynch wasn't really what I meant as well.
(more in the sense of if you got a good reason to vote, don't wait it out for more discussion)
jammer wrote:Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?
I didn't start the game with RayFrost, he replaced in. When he did, he started with a couple of jokes between him and another player, and then fought hard to not get himself lynched and scumhunted. Then we lynched him because of the previous player. Not much different than this play.
jammer wrote:
PaltryExcuse wrote:I'm going to continue the analysis tomorrow, but I would like to say that it is in our best interest to let RayFrost claim if someone is going to hammer.
(This game is moving seriously fast if we lynch so soon. We have a 3 week deadline. Let's use some more of it folks.)
Noone is going to hammer, yet. The "don't lynch continue discussion, we got 3 weeks." argument is rubbish, it stalls the game, if there is a majority ready to lynch someone, a lynch should happen.
Many think more discussion is better and improves town odds. Problem with more talking is that any scummy things get harder to be found in the ocean of posts. The usefulness degrades if you forcefully extend the thread. It also gets harder and harder to get a complete picture of someone when the thread gets bigger and bigger. You miss connections between players more easily.
Deadlines are there to stop some games from being completely stalled, and they are 3 weeks because many newbie games also feature a lot of replacements, it is not a reason to make every day 3 weeks.
I've been in a game where 10pages/dag was not uncommon, in short I can say that it did not really favor town.
Prana said he'll hammer if anyone else votes... so we do have someone who would hammer.
The 3 weeks thing was more about how the only 2 who have a multitude of posts are Prana and RayFrost. The game basically consists of cases and comments and then Ray vs. Prana. We have 3 weeks, it wouldn't kill us to use more than 5-6 days. That was my point. We don't have to use the full 3 week deadline.
Plus, I gave more concrete reasons earlier (I needed to catch up, we had a replacement coming in). Not everyone has weighed in on the situation.
, is fairly active. One problem I got with him is his fairly high noise/info ratio at the start of the game. He started to become serious somewhere in the middle of the game. At a time he already had a few votes. ~scummy
The way he defended jumurph, he opposed it when the wagon got 3 votes quickly and voted the last one voting it. ~towny
AtE(I want to get lynched, I'm gonna make a topic about tunneling if you're town, the one hammering me is scum) ~leaning scum
Calling himself town over and over ~mildly scummy
Overall he seems scummy to me, but some things could be explained with meta. So anyone who played with him before, I'm talking to you PE and skill. Could you say if his play at the start of this game is consistent with how you've played in earlier games?
You can probably get more information about my playstyle from my wiki or the games I remember linking earlier than from PE, fuzzy, or skill (PE and fuzzy have 1 finished game with me, the one with PE was me-town replacing a almost-guaranteed lynch that got through despite my efforts on D1, the one with fuzzy I have a fuzzy memory of, and the one with skill is not yet completed, though both skill and myself are dead).
Nobody in this game has enough previous experience with me to determine much about my playstyle.
And the one that hammers me so soon
is
likely scum depending upon the arguments they put forth. That's not much on the AtE realm, though I admit the rest of what you mentioned was very emotional (hence why I took a break for a while).
I've only really called myself town like... ~3 times in the joking phase of the game, so I'm not really sure how you get
MILDLY
scummy when I've done it even less often than I've done AtE, which you seem to think is less scummy despite greater occurrences. Sorry, but I'm finding the assessment of how scummy each thing is disproportional with how often or how major of a tell they are.
In fact, the town thing is something that is a rather common occurrence in games with more "experienced" players (I'm townie, are you? kind of things), and it's quite verily a null tell. There are other reasons from this that it is a null tell that I can go into (and will if you read a bit further down)
I'm not sure how you find me 'getting serious' once the game is truly going (pressure is being applied) is scummy, could you detail how my posting more seriously as more pressure increased is indicative of
scum
over, say, a relaxed and joking individual (read: null tell)?
And calling oneself town is something that is not indicative of scum or town because...
Town will call themselves town because that is what they are.
Scum will call themselves town because that is what they wish to pretend to be.
Both may
joke
about being town (since I was joking in the "I'm town, obv" and similar things, you'd have to be saying that these kinds of
jokes
are a scumtell... gl with that, btw), and that is more indicative of the player rather than their role, unless you have meta that says bob jokes when scum and is super srs busns when town.
PaltryExcuse wrote:
Prana said he'll hammer if anyone else votes... so we do have someone who would hammer.
The 3 weeks thing was more about how the only 2 who have a multitude of posts are Prana and RayFrost. The game basically consists of cases and comments and then Ray vs. Prana. We have 3 weeks, it wouldn't kill us to use more than 5-6 days. That was my point. We don't have to use the full 3 week deadline.
Plus, I gave more concrete reasons earlier (I needed to catch up, we had a replacement coming in). Not everyone has weighed in on the situation.
Though admittedly after jammer's post, I have since receeded on my "guarenteed" hammer thing, I do feel Ray's the scum, but after the rest and looking at things, like I say, we have been moving this at a rather quick pace compared to most other games here, and there are some who haven't said much, therefore I am agreed that I was a bit hasty saying we didn't need any waiting. I'm up for giving it a few more days to see where things lie with others comments and views on the situation.
But that's not to say my view is Ray needs a-lynching, just needs a-lynching a little bit later in the day (game wise at least).
And Ray, about jammer's reads, I was going to ask that myself, but somewhere in the middle of (I think) his first post he said everyone elses reads were neutral, which I admit I only noticed on a re-check of the post.
All of my answers will be in Bold within the quote
The bleeding box wrote:Also, please note that I did
not
say I thought jmurph necessarily had an experienced partner, only that she herself was inexperienced.
Saying that jmurph is inexperienced and is being counseled (paraphrase) to stay quiet is actually implying that she has a partner that
can
counsel her, which implies experience. I'd also like to point out that scum can't talk during the day, so they could not have coordinated any moves at the time jmurph was being bandwagoned, in case you didn't know that.
The fact I listed everyone but had no read on some people still seems to be causing some consternation. I tried to explain, by quoting you (Ray), that I listed everyone
because
you said leaving someone out of a list is scummy ... but now you say don't use quotes because they clutter things up and confuse you. Indeed, it confusing when you dispute your own words.
I didn't say to avoid using quotes at all, I said to not use them in
the case against me
and only toward Prana, since I felt he'd pull out 67594282 quotes, which would make his post nearly impossible to read. I would also like to point out that
you did not say you had no read
. You just didn't say anything about your read of them at all. There is a difference, like I said before, between saying "jibber jabber, I have no read on this person" and just saying "jibber jabber."
Wasn't it you who said overdefensivness is scummy? Do you mean stuff like "You voted for me and put me in danger so not only are you the worst of the scum, the next guy who votes for me is absolutely scum."
I
also said
that you have to differentiate between defensive and
over-
defensive for
that player's personality and playstyle
, which would
require meta
. lerntooreed. And your 'quotation' of me is really bad, considering
I voted you before you voted me
. Noice attempt at skewing things like that, though.
I will grant that my John von Neumann comment may have been pretty obscure. For those who don't know, he invented game theory, a very heavy duty deal requiring highly advanced mathematical training to fully grasp - those of us who took Bonehead Math ain't gonna absorb it. Sooo ... my point was that Apathy's posts are so deep that I just plain am unable to follow them, I think because I lack a strong enough foundation in the game theory aspects of this game. I think he is very smart and I will be paying a great deal of attention to his conclusions, but I have so far been unable to follow much of his logic.
You shouldn't be using jokes to mean something with content like that. Just
say
that you find his posts difficult to understand. Making an obscure reference does nothing to help the town. In the future, be straight up with what you think rather than curttailing like that.
As for the fact that I switched my vote and voted with people I had previously suspected as scummy, well, maybe I've changed my mind about them, or maybe I haven't, and maybe I think your partner may be strongly considering throwing you under the bus as a lost cause ... but your outrageous misrepresentaions of my statements and your emotionally loaded pre-emptive bullying of anyone else who might be inclined to vote to lynch you and your screaming kicking overdefensiveness (to the point of apologizing to the Mod and threatening to start a thread telling the whole world how bad the rest of us play) when you feel in danger only tend to confirm my suspicion. I figure this is the first time you have been found out so early and are having a hard time dealing with the thought that a bunch of noobs outted you.
That's a lot of maybe's. I'd also like to point out that I've been caught out on D1 before. I don't really give a fook that you guys are "a bunch of noobs" because I don't really make the difference in my mind. I don't lower my play level to 'help the poor little newbies' and nor do I raise it. I treat these games like all others, so it being a newbie game has no effect on my play. Nice attempt at making use of the fact I'm an emotional player as a way to go "omfg, he's an arrogant and egotistical dude that's freaking out because his pride is ruined by use catching him as scum!" Really solid reasoning there, mon. Except you don't know whether I'm arrogant, egotistical, or anything similar. Completely worthless point. And what you call overdefensiveness is actually emotional play, not overdefensiveness. Use your terms correctly or not at all. Last point for this paragraph... you have yet to actually state how it is a misrepresentation of your stance. You've quite effectively avoided stating what you actually meant, which gives you the ability to be vague and not using clarification in order to take whatever stance makes your opponent wrong. It's actually something that I've used in the past, but it is highly ineffective.
Let's not leave out the (perhaps convenient?) fact that somebody who wasn't participating much suddenly shows up requesting a reprieve for you- throw another monkey wrench in there.
lolwut? He wasn't requesting anything
for me
. He was requesting that the town (note: town includes both scum and the town-aligned) continue discussing for more information, which is valuable considering that the majority of the thread has essentially been a flame war between me and whoever else is attacking me. Unlike prana, who has legitimate concerns about this, you are just trying to throw as much dirt as you can by following prana's lead.
PranaDevil wrote:
And Ray, about jammer's reads, I was going to ask that myself, but somewhere in the middle of (I think) his first post he said everyone elses reads were neutral, which I admit I only noticed on a re-check of the post.
I'm more concerned about jammer giving some analysis of the people rather than just saying "neutral" and walking off all la-di-da about it.
Neutral seems like a very easy/lazy way to avoid saying anything about the "majority of players," which is a fine way to 1) avoid stepping on toes / avoid getting noticed 2) avoid having to give an actual stance or read of the players 3) avoid giving reasoning and analysis that may be valuable
The stuff on me being scum right now basically requires Ray to be scum, which while possible is still ridiculous. I gave a couple of what I thought were decent reasons (not everyone had weighed in, conversation was still happening) for not rushing into the lynch.
