Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[Phaen]

oops, I meant her / she's / her

[jmurph3]

jmurph: Sorry if you're getting frustrated
Is there anything half the town

did

agree with that you did not?

Are you asking me to go back through everything to find an example??

I'm sure that there have been things; nothing pops into my head at the moment, and it will require a much more thorough read.

One thing that I can't get my head around is how I feel about PaltryExcuse. Ray has called him a useful poster, and I agree in general, but I also feel like there could be more content and that some of his thoughts have been a bit contradictory. One of the biggest things that I've found in going back through (admittedly looking for something else):

Way, way early on (we're talking like page 4 or so here), Paltry said:

@ PaltryExcuse - Do you have any advice for me going into my first game here?

And especially early on, when we're not even close to a lynch, don't be afraid to vote. A vote will spark a response much more informative than just an FoS.

And then, only a few pages ago, when explaining why he didn't trust me/thought I seemed scummy, he said:

2. I voted against him to stimulate discussion. Well, I also unvoted him later and haven't (I don't believe) revoted him. Kind of a moot point.

I missed a day realtime, and I agreed previously with fuzzy that you were suspicious so I voted you. Your vote on me could easily have been solved with a question, and I would've given you my answer. Scum often wagon, and express wishy-washyness. They vote for a 'lurker' on the pretense of unexplained points, instead of just prodding them for information and getting their read from that.

I just find it interesting that the advice he gave at the beginning of the game was to not be afraid to vote in order to stimulate discussion, and then when someone did that against him, it became a scumtell.

Overall, I'm not getting a hugely scummy read on Paltry, that just stuck in my mind as something that seemed a bit odd.

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

jmurph3 (

2

) : fuzzylightning, PaltryExcuse
Apathy (

2

) : PranaDevil, Phaen
RayFrost (

1

) : Apathy
fuzzylightning (

1

) : jammer

Not Voting (

3

) : Skill006, jmurph3, RayFrost

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[PaltryExcuse]

2. I voted against him to stimulate discussion. Well, I also unvoted him later and haven't (I don't believe) revoted him. Kind of a moot point.

I missed a day realtime, and I agreed previously with fuzzy that you were suspicious so I voted you. Your vote on me could easily have been solved with a question, and I would've given you my answer. Scum often wagon, and express wishy-washyness. They vote for a 'lurker' on the pretense of unexplained points, instead of just prodding them for information and getting their read from that.

I just find it interesting that the advice he gave at the beginning of the game was to not be afraid to vote in order to stimulate discussion, and then when someone did that against him, it became a scumtell.

Overall, I'm not getting a hugely scummy read on Paltry, that just stuck in my mind as something that seemed a bit odd.

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Razz Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

It is okay to stimulate discussion and all, but your reasons for voting me were scummy. You seemed to imply my lurking was 'intentional' and not that I missed posting on a Friday. It had reasoning... which made no sense. I interpret it as someone trying to look like they're participating new info (when they're not).

[jmurph3]

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

It is okay to stimulate discussion and all, but your reasons for voting me were scummy. You seemed to imply my lurking was 'intentional' and not that I missed posting on a Friday. It had reasoning... which made no sense. I interpret it as someone trying to look like they're participating new info (when they're not).

Well, that's going to have to be a difference of opinion, I guess. My reasoning was to try to get you to come in and defend your position, since IMO fuzzy's case at that point was exceedingly weak. It wasn't that you had missed posting for any specific length of time (to be honest, the real life days tend to run together for me), it was that I wanted you to back up your vote, since I can't really defend myself against, "So-and-so's case makes sense".

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, that's going to have to be a difference of opinion, I guess. My reasoning was to try to get you to come in and defend your position, since IMO fuzzy's case at that point was exceedingly weak. It wasn't that you had missed posting for any specific length of time (to be honest, the real life days tend to run together for me), it was that I wanted you to back up your vote, since I can't really defend myself against, "So-and-so's case makes sense".

I can accept that, however the rest of my case still stands in my mind.

[Phaen]

agreeing isn't scummy.

not voting apathy despite agreeing so much is scummy (especially when you are voting a proponent of the apathy-wagon)

Aren't YOU not voting Apathy despite agreeing he's scummy? I don't like how you're urging people to vote for someone you aren't even voting for. You want push a bandwagon without actually being on it?

[PranaDevil]

I do agree that Ray either needs to vote, or state why he isn't, as he said he was waiting on a vote count before voting. But yet hasn't done so and hasn't said why.

By the same token, Phaen, are you going to continue looking over the rest of the thread? You appear to have just stopped and have basically left out everything of important once we got past RVS, and have just jumped on what's going on now. I'm wondering if there's a deeper reason as to why?

Seems rather scummy to ignore everything that was actually in depth, and skip to the end where (in all honesty) there's not much being said, and the general reason for such is that we're waiting on more discussion to be made by yourself and others, that keeps getting promised to be on its way, and seemingly never arriving.

[jmurph3]

While I was rereading through the forum, I discovered something that irks me, which is as follows: several people accused Prana of tunneling on Ray, not looking at other players, etc. However, other than people noting that fuzzy hasn't said much (which has mostly been dismissed as playstyle), no one has noted that fuzzy has also seemed to have tunneled...on me.

fuzzy has been voting for me since almost the beginning, when he made this case:

Vote: jmurph13

Sure it might be early in the game, but you have 7 posts, which is more than a post a page so far, and the fact that we are only 1 day in to Day 1, means you have been fairly active at least, but so far, the only thing you have done to progress the discussion is accuse Ray of being defensive once. You keep bringing up your avatar being Carmen Sandiego and seem more content to talk about avatars than the game.

Ok, that's acceptable. I already defended myself against those points, and, oddly enough, it's fuzzy himself who discounts the latter part, when he notes,

if you really don't have anything to talk about, talking about nonsensical things such as avatars (outside of encouraging a player to get one) is not the way to go, it just distracts the town, and I realize that you weren't the only one doing it, but for some reason, you doing it just jumped out at me.

So I was not the only one, but he decided that it was a good enough reason to vote for me...whatever. However, fuzzy also discounts the entirety of his vote when he says,

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

though he adds,

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

So now his argument is that if no one is being scummy, then you might as well kill me because I'm useless.

He further acknowledges his point that his vote was only to get me to start talking when he says,

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game.

But in the same post, he goes on to say,

I am not liking jmurph. The early talk about her avatar, then non defense of herself (only to be saved by RF), and now the setting up of lynches, which I stated above is scummy, just makes me not like her as town more and more.

Ah, so now we get into the meat of his case...which is that I was setting up lynches (since by this point both other of his arguments had been fairly disproved)...which I didn't actually do.

Now, while fuzzy does occasionally mention others that he finds suspicious, such as in this post:

@Skill: To answer your question, my top 2 would be jmurph3 and redbox with apathy coming in third.

He gives a little bit of argument against redbox, and states that his argument against apathy is mainly lack of posting, and he adds nothing to his case against me. For any and all suspicions that he delineates during this entire game thus far, he never once adds to his case against me. His entire case against me, for which he has maintained and never once dropped or changed his vote, is based on a case that he himself discounted, and with the added evidence that I set up lynches, which I discounted.

@fuzzy: do you have anything else in your case against me? Or, really, anything else to add at all?

[PranaDevil]

Actually, I don't think he has been tunnelling, looking back over his posts, he did also pull me up for setting up lynches. Though I notice he did it immediately after I pointed out why doing so is a bad idea.

His reasons for voting jmurph are, however, extremely bad, and essentially non-existant.

The fact he's also said he was pointing a FoS at me because he thought I was town and playing badly was... ridiculous, and obviously a backtrack.

In fact, the last time he posted anything of even slight relevance would be slightly over a week ago (1am last week on Tuesday based on my time settings, and it's 7:50 now).

Factor in the blatant statement that "I am not supposed to help you in finding scum, that is your job." from fuzzy, and it's just very very unhelpful in any way so far.

I've seen a great deal of non-action from fuzzy, and a lot of pointless finger pointing, and an obvious refusal to actually help town scum hunt (from his own mouth no less... well fingers), this when deliberately refusing to help scum hunt only helps scum, and not town.

With that said, my top suspects now are fuzzy and Apathy. jmurph is still up there, but not high, same with Phaen due to her not really looking over everything by now, and thereby ignoring what could be important information.

[Phaen]

After Apathy made that post against me, it made me want to get straight into the action because going through old posts has been tedious I have indeed finished rereading, though, and I'll be posting my thoughts on everything tonight after my homework is done.

[Apathy]

Prana a few of your posts are just so painfully dense... I dont know where to begin. Im not going to quote you because quite frankly sifting through ALL the crap you're saying, to look for the 5% that actually matters and makes sense isnt worth it to find quotes.

Suffice to say that you:

Pushed ray to L-1 in the early term of the first day phase and urged the town to finish him off.
Quickly backed off and changed your vote as soon as the above move started to catch you some heat, returning to your original bandwagon.
Have agreed pretty readily with Ray/Phaen in their attack on me, and now have begun to pressure me, ignoring the almost complete agreement you were in about Ray's guilt (worthy of lynching him early on) and pointing your fingers now instead of at jmurph and ray, to me and fuzzy.


You have consistently contradicted yourself as well as misread and misinterpreted other people's posts.


Because you are posting so much, as well as the general tone of your posts, I feel you are town. You are just making this whole game a slog due to your bad logic, eagerness to bandwagon, and POINTLESS 3 PAGE POSTS.



Listen, you guys can vote me all you want. I know that I will flip town and you will have almost nothing to go on because of it. However, the case against Ray, although admittedly not the best early on, has only proven itself true in his urge to push for my lynching after finally getting a little backing in the way of Phaen.

Phaen again I feel is honestly scumhunting, but watch out for Ray's eagerness to get a buddy system working by agreeing with you, joking around with you, or just plain flattering you. He is still acting scummy, all of his posts are scummy, and so far he hasnt done anything other than try to indict the people who have called attention to him.


My vote stands.

[Apathy]

To clarify (you'd know this if you read my posts)

The case against ray IMO is stronger now because he is just shifting focus off himself and onto me now, and if it wasnt me it was fuzzy, and when not fuzzy it was redbox. In each situation, he has been overly eager to push the attention on to anyone who isnt himself, while not fully dedicating himself to the actual win-condition: PURSUIT AND LYNCHING OF SCUM.

His readiness to push everyone else to lynch me while standing on the sidelines himself is just another blatant indicator of this general attitude, which Phaen has now noticed.

[Apathy]

*prepares for 3 pages of upset prana banter* x.x

[PranaDevil]

So rather than actually responding (Noting I'm not the only one pointing things out against you Apathy) you just go "Prana posts lots, and wanted to lynch Ray" and... that's the entire defence?

Heat is on you, and as opposed to Ray who made some decent points about other issues to get people (i.e. myself) to actually look at those as well as him (not instead of), you resort to just freaking out about the fact I posted a lot earlier?

I do apologize if me taking an actual interest in scum hunting somehow hurts the game, perhaps next time I'll stick to posting once in a blue moon and never actually making a solid argument.

[PranaDevil]

EBWOP

I'd also like to see you point out an actually long post I've made where I haven't been making points in it. I'd also point out that I've only made 2 posts that could be considered "3 pages" both of which were in depth analysis of stuff (the first being Ray, the second being on all).

Sure I post a fair bit, but I tend to be making responses based on certain issues that have arisen. If nobody posted except for a couple of times, we would get nowhere.

I'm seeing noob scum freaking out based on them being put under fire.

[fuzzylightning]

My reads on players:

Skill: Posts sparingly and overall seems unsure of her points, and likes to sit on the fence. Posts a case on jammer recently and waiting for a response to it.

PD: Getting a big town read from him, after he reconsidered his positions in the game, has been a more balanced player and has gotten over his tunnel-vision from earlier, this is good to see and shows a maturity in game which will only benefit the town later on.

PE: Is scumhunting, disappears at times, which is ok because when he does post, its generally good and has content, leaning town here.

Phaen (redbox): Still catching up it seems, so is posting a lot of summary and showing her views of what happened in the early game. Her behavior is showing signs of town, but my suspicion of the person she replaced is still there and as such I still think this player spot is scum.

Apathy: Scum, at this point I think its completely clearcut. He hasn't done anything all game except make a case against Ray and distance himself from that case, while criticizing the actions that followed. Where am I contradicting myself (with the exception of the FoS that was meant as an IGMEOY, because that has already been mentioned). What reasoning do you have for calling me "inexperienced". What makes someone an "easy lynch" in your eyes since you are accusing RF of going after them.

RF: Strong town read from him. Very active and trying to keep the game moving. Defends himself when necessary and is scumhunting well.

jmurph: Concedes points to PE, and has agreed with what everyone else has said before. Tries to build a case on Apathy using what others have said and explaining why she agrees with that, but it seems hollow to me.

Jammer: Hasn't posted much since replacing in and kelyn hadn't posted much prior to replacing out, as such, I don't know what to think as I haven't been able to get a huge read out of this slot.

My answers to others questions of me:

@Skill: Why would you not want to lynch your prime suspect? If I felt that you were my prime suspect, then I would try my hardest to get you lynched. That is why jmurph was jumped on for that statement.

Regarding my case against jmurph: Yes at the beginning it was for not posting content, but it had evolved, especially with her reactions to the second and third votes that were placed on her. She seemingly gave up and didn't even try to defend herself until RF came in and defended her. Now, my case, as it was doesn't hold enough water for my vote, so I will

unvote

, however, that doesn't mean that I still don't find her suspicious, because I do. And before anyone accuses me of tunneling, just because my vote was on a specific person, doesn't mean that I am entirely focused on someone.

Right now, I really don't like what Apathy is doing. He is trying to dumb down PD's actions to a bunch of actions that happened immediately when in fact they happened over the course of several posts and an attack that forced him to reconsider how he was playing the game. Your lack of a defense of yourself, other than trying to discredit PD and trying to push across the RF lynch.

Vote: Apathy

. That should be the third vote on him, bringing him to L-2. Personally, I am ok with his lynch right now.

[PaltryExcuse]

My reads on players:

Skill: Posts sparingly and overall seems unsure of her points, and likes to sit on the fence. Posts a case on jammer recently and waiting for a response to it.

PD: Getting a big town read from him, after he reconsidered his positions in the game, has been a more balanced player and has gotten over his tunnel-vision from earlier, this is good to see and shows a maturity in game which will only benefit the town later on.

Summary, not analysis.

PE: Is scumhunting, disappears at times, which is ok because when he does post, its generally good and has content, leaning town here.

Phaen (redbox): Still catching up it seems, so is posting a lot of summary and showing her views of what happened in the early game. Her behavior is showing signs of town, but my suspicion of the person she replaced is still there and as such I still think this player spot is scum.

Apathy: Scum, at this point I think its completely clearcut. He hasn't done anything all game except make a case against Ray and distance himself from that case, while criticizing the actions that followed. Where am I contradicting myself (with the exception of the FoS that was meant as an IGMEOY, because that has already been mentioned). What reasoning do you have for calling me "inexperienced". What makes someone an "easy lynch" in your eyes since you are accusing RF of going after them.

Copy / paste other people's opinions. (RayFrost's opinion of yours truly, Skill's opinion of redbox/phaen, restating the case on Apathy and problems with it.)

RF: Strong town read from him. Very active and trying to keep the game moving. Defends himself when necessary and is scumhunting well.

jmurph: Concedes points to PE, and has agreed with what everyone else has said before. Tries to build a case on Apathy using what others have said and explaining why she agrees with that, but it seems hollow to me.

Common opinion of both players IMO.

Jammer: Hasn't posted much since replacing in and kelyn hadn't posted much prior to replacing out, as such, I don't know what to think as I haven't been able to get a huge read out of this slot.

So what do you want to know from Jammer?

My answers to others questions of me:

@Skill: Why would you not want to lynch your prime suspect? If I felt that you were my prime suspect, then I would try my hardest to get you lynched. That is why jmurph was jumped on for that statement.

Regarding my case against jmurph: Yes at the beginning it was for not posting content, but it had evolved, especially with her reactions to the second and third votes that were placed on her. She seemingly gave up and didn't even try to defend herself until RF came in and defended her. Now, my case, as it was doesn't hold enough water for my vote, so I will

unvote

, however, that doesn't mean that I still don't find her suspicious, because I do. And before anyone accuses me of tunneling, just because my vote was on a specific person, doesn't mean that I am entirely focused on someone.

Right now, I really don't like what Apathy is doing. He is trying to dumb down PD's actions to a bunch of actions that happened immediately when in fact they happened over the course of several posts and an attack that forced him to reconsider how he was playing the game. Your lack of a defense of yourself, other than trying to discredit PD and trying to push across the RF lynch.

Vote: Apathy

. That should be the third vote on him, bringing him to L-2. Personally, I am ok with his lynch right now.

No longer supports unpopular bandwagon, supports new popular bandwagon?

I dunno. I just don't see any new material from fuzzy despite the long post. Am I missing something fuzzy?

[fuzzylightning]

Well, what do you want to see from me?

Everything I have said there comes completely from my head and isn't influenced by what anyone else has said. If I have seemingly similar views to others, then so be it, but all of my post is straight from me.

What do I want from jammer? Anything really. He hasn't posted much since his vote on me a week ago, and despite a flurry of activity upon replacing in, that slot hasn't done much of anything.

[jammer]

I'm going to make a short post in order to globally get my views across.

I will be busy most of the afternoon, but I promise a much more precise post before the weekend is over.

I'd like to see that more precise post, apathy
I'm still waiting.

Basically the scummy stuff.
He accuses Prana for pushing hard on Ray together with Ray as his prime suspect.
Wishy washy ness with redbox, skill and fuzzy.
Not willing to respond to points from prana, RF.

The 'OMG ur role-fishing' bit is blown up. The VT could been made at the time as something shorter then towny. Altough, VT does mean vanilla towny I could easily see someone making the mistake.
(towny is not a role, vanilla towny is a role.)

Somehow he reminds me about a player in my first game, altough he was extremely active. I'd like him to get his stance on Ray a bit more clear.
And the more precise post he stated earlier would be helpfull.
~~

The lack of analysis was explained by fuzzy. But, it doesn't hurt for someone else to explain it: he doesn't like giving answers to scum, or giving them hints as to who/what to attack/feel about. It's a difference in playstyle.

Idd, he did talk before about having a different playing style whenever he is a IC, and that he got more informative posts whenever he is. I think his reasoning for it was more along the lines of 'Don't feel like posting like that' instead giving out info.
ftr, I'd disagree with the stands of not giving any info out anyway. If giving out info was bad and would not help town, first person to post should start with a dice, and we lynch the person that the dice is pointing at.

But, it wouldn't hurt for me to go over a earlier game of him. Then again doing that good enough costs much time.
I'd that anyway sometime these days. ~ Seems to be a big deal in current playing-style.

~Extreme example, your playing style could mean to be really scummy and unhelpful for town. Calling it a playing style is not going to stop me suspecting someone.

The "useless filler" part isn't really strong, IMO. Although a lot of his posts seem like blocks that no one wants to read, they are helpful for newbies, and fuzzy was just trying to help some of us out with some advice.

His post structure is fine, nothing wrong with it, better then Rays full line, empty line style. (No offence Ray) It's more the way he fils them. A load of 'info', but stating suspicions are reletively low.

On your 3rd point, how is fuzzy "acting" as a scum-hunter? I see him asking questions and stating his suspicions (minimally, but it's still there).

Overall I got a bad feeling with fuzzy. A lot of (useless)info, asking questions but what is the idea behind it, mentioning and comments most players, yet I don't really know what he thinks.

I'm just totally confused on your [2nd to] last point. Do you think you could elaborate? (so there's no confusion, I'm talking about this one:

The problem I more have with it, that when he is referring to jmurph, and reasons for voting her, as bad town, and not so much as possible scum.

If you're saying what I think you're saying, fuzzy never said he thought jmurph was "bad town".

Not literally, and I might misunderstood him there.

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game. Voting with people that you find scummy, is scummy. If you think 2 people are scum, then in a game where we know that there are only 2 scum, how could you then vote for person #3?

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

Ah, thank you. That helps.
Ahem...

Did not defend herself because she thought defending yourself seems scummy.

I can see where you're coming from then, but at the same time, Ray was being attacked for being overdefensive. One does not want to make the same mistakes as another who is being attacked, so...

Point is that mafia more thinks about being scummy then town.

I'm going to sleep, back sometime tomorrow. I'll be back tomorrow with posts I missed now.

I'll post more next couple of days, fuzzy. Sorry for the little/no posting couple last days.

[RayFrost]

Wow, larger than I thought.

And I forgot to

unvote, FoS: Apathy

waitin' on a vote count.

^---- lern2reed newbs!

vote: apathy

THIS IS L-1, ONE MORE VOTE LYNCHES APATHY

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, what do you want to see from me?

Everything I have said there comes completely from my head and isn't influenced by what anyone else has said. If I have seemingly similar views to others, then so be it, but all of my post is straight from me.

What do I want from jammer? Anything really. He hasn't posted much since his vote on me a week ago, and despite a flurry of activity upon replacing in, that slot hasn't done much of anything.

If I only have your word to go on about it? That doesn't inspire confidence in me believing it. Phaen replaced in and found numerous things left untouched on. Nothing anyone has mentioned has seemed questionable other than those being pointed out? Plus I'm finding myself agreeing with jammer on this point, hence why I isolated that one post of copy / paste:

Overall I got a bad feeling with fuzzy. A lot of (useless)info, asking questions but what is the idea behind it, mentioning and comments most players, yet I don't really know what he thinks.

@Apathy: Come back, claim.

[jmurph3]

@Apathy: Come back, claim.

How long do we wait for Apathy to come back?

[Phaen]

Its important we wait for his claim so we don't unknowingly lynch a power role.
By current patterns it will probably take him another 4 days or so to respond

Also, you haven't answered my questions, Apathy

[RayFrost]

We wait 5 days for Apathy, then we give phaen a cookie and hammer apathy at the same time.

phaen gets the cookie cuz the avatar is cuddly.