Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Limerickx]

I just read everything.

I was down for the 'imprint everyone' idea until I heard the fact that Rogues don't have a night kill ability, unless imprinted with it.

I was wondering if this seemed like a good strat for Day 1.

Imprint 1 person, then vote for no lynch.

As far as I can tell, we have no way of knowing what the imprint will give the user. If we imprint one person, take it to night, we can find out if the imprint gives a normal power-role type power or not. We won't have to worry about a townie dying during the night, becuase scum can't kill, and if a kill DOES happen, it could only be from the one person imprinted. We might get lucky and get a power that can be of a big bonus during the night. If it turns out to be useless, whats the problem?

The next day, we could do the same thing, only imprint a new person. We'd be able to see if the power was the same, if it was useful, etc.

The only downside is that we might accidentally pick scum and they'd keep the power. But if the power allows a kill, and a kill goes off at night, we'd know who was responsible. If we gave out one power a day, we'd have a list of possible scum: those players who at one point we given a imprint.

Does this seem reasonable? Am I missing something really obvious?

[Limerickx]

I think the thing I prefer about my plan would that it would be a lot easier to keep tabs on the players who received imprints in the past. At any point in time when a townie was killed, you'd be able to look at a list of possible suspects, narrowed down to players who had received an imprint in the past.

[Limerickx]

But not just an investigative role. It would also help to get information about how the game is set up. What goes on 'behind the scenes.'

There are obviously things we dont know in regards to what sort of roles will be given out. This is just a way to gain information, what possible roles can be given out?

Its just a thought, and there are downsides, we could, of course, give scum a power on accident, but the plus is that the longer we keep a handle on who were given powers, and what powers they were, the easier it will be to narrow down possibilities when a kill is made, and keeping things clear and organized would be a huge bonus to townies in catching scum in lies.

[Limerickx]

I'd be down for a dice roll to determine imprints.

[Limerickx]

VMD makes a good point, which in hindsight makes perfect sense.
While I don't think the dice roll is as terrible an idea as Messiah thinks, I agree that dice rolling would take away a lot of information, which is kinda the entire point.

Problem with that is the town-scum ratio, with 8-4 if we mislynch today then give the scum a NK we start day two with 6 town and 4 scum.

The scum wouldn't use the NK even if they got it, they'd just be lynched the next day as a result. Also, it would be vote to implant, then vote to no-lynch. If we gave a NK to a scum during the night, they'd never use it, they'd just get lynched the next day. That would be stupid.

Basically theres a whole lot a scum and not that many town, thus voting is tilted in scum favour, so by randomizing we remove that. Now if we randomly chose a player day 1 and repeatedly imprint them and vote NL until they find scum we have a 66% of winning right now and honestly with a 2-1 town to scum ratio that's a hell of a lot better win % then playing the game straight up.

That assumes you know what the possible powers are. I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere what the possible imprints are.

I can see the arguement for both sides of a diceroll/vote, and its a matter of risk/reward. By voting, you get the risk of mafia working together to get the vote on them, but the reward of more information.
Dice roll you reduce the risk of picking a mafia, but reduce the information gained as a reward as a result. At the moment, I'd be more in favor of a vote, but I can see the merit of the dice-roll.

[Limerickx]

Imprint: Vala Mal Doran
Imprint: Limerickx

Got some catchup reading to do, it seems.

I still disagree with lynching today, as scum don't have a NK unless we give one out. I just don't see a reason to take the chance when there wont be a kill (and if there IS a kill, it would be from one of the players we give and imprint to)

[Limerickx]

Lim, I'm flattered by you voting to imprint me and all, but I question you voting to imprint yourself. I have had a town read on you, but I had a town read on elvis too, prior to her so eagerly voting to imprint herself. I am of the opinion that no one should vote to imprint themselves.

Not to make you second-guess yourself, but why do you think I am worthy of being imprinted? What makes you so sure I'm town?

Generally, I get the most 'non-scum' vibe from you. You're asking questions which I feel open up discussions which have a good chance of tripping up players later. Truthfully, I just get a 'vanilla' vibe off of you, and I'd rather have people I feel are less likely to be scum have as many votes to imprint as possible.

That being said, along with the vote on me, as I am still in favor of moving slower, at least at first until we get a little more information regarding the possible powers the imprints give, I will remove/move my votes to ensure its easy to keep track moving forward of who had imprints.

I don't think voting to imprint yourself is, in and of itself, scummy. It takes 7 people to vote to imprint, and truthfully, I trust myself being imprinted more than other people, since I know my role. Obviously people can't trust what I say based on me saying it, but since I personally know my role, I have a vested interest in being imprinted. Being imprinted is beneficial to every player, scum or vanilla, because if you are imprinted, it helps your role, and doesn't help your opposing role. I'd say its a null tell more than anything else, but I'm willing to listen to why I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Limerickx]

I am also not sure on Limerick's idea, just because it leaves too much open.

While the diceroll idea would be fair and random, it just leaves too much to chance and takes away any discussion we would be able to get.

The scum wouldn't use the NK even if they got it, they'd just be lynched the next day as a result.

The imprints are a subject all of their own. Will we know what imprint the person receives?

Limerick is seeming to allude in Post 43 that we will know. I'm not really comfortable with him making such an assumption. I'm not sure that the mod would give that much away.

Just to clarify, I later agreed that the benefit for voting on who to get the imprints had a lot of positives. The things that are important to me, at least for day one, is that I don't see a reason to lynch, when the scum don't have a NK unless we give them one, so we don't have to lynch the first day. The other important thing to me is that we give out all imprints judiciously and in small amounts, so we can keep track of everyone who had them later on if people start getting NK'd

I also never said that we/I know what the imprints will be, and I'm not sure where in post 43 I imply that we do. In fact, I specifically say

That assumes you know what the possible powers are. I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere what the possible imprints are.

This seems to directly oppose your claim that I said that we'd know. What I DO know, is that anyone who is imprinted can tell everyone else what they were imprinted with. Thats how we can figure out a little more about what getting imprinted entails. Information from other players, not the mod.

We can assume (I dont think this is a reach) is that it is possible to get an imprint that lets you kill someone. Otherwise, it would be impossible for mafia to NK someone. Other than that, I have no idea, but we can find out by any imprinted person telling everyone else after the night phase what they got. So to clarify, we'll have some idea of the imprints we can get, and what they do, because whoever is imprinted can tell everyone else the day after.

[Limerickx]

I still disagree with lynching today, as scum don't have a NK unless we give one out. I just don't see a reason to take the chance when there wont be a kill (and if there IS a kill, it would be from one of the players we give and imprint to)

I think this may have been addressed but lynching will give us more information than not. If we limit the players given imprints that will give us a relatively small pool of possible players responsible. There is the possibility of scum getting a NK ability and waiting to use it on a night they are not imprinted, but unless everyone as been imprinted at one time or another they are still taking a huge risk.

I understand that, and I don't think that people who want to lynch today are wrong for saying so, but I guess that I just feel, with scum 100% not having a kill as of this very moment, tomorrow is just sort of an extension of today. If we imprint and don't lynch, today+tomorrow is basically one long day in my eyes, only with the added information that comes from knowing what sort of imprints are out there, and anything else we might learn from what is revealed during the night phase. Maybe there are mechanics we don't know about. For example, being FORCED to use the imprints you get would fit with the premise of the show.

So while I prefer to not lynch today, I understand the reasons for wanting to do so, and I would most likely be fully behind lynching tomorrow, when there is at least the possibility that a mafia was imprinted with a NK. Maybe I'd also change my mind for today if I felt very strongly about someone being super-scummy. I just don't at the moment.

[Limerickx]

Sorry for my inactivity as well. I tried to make a 'longer post coming soon!' type deal earlier, but it appears it did not go through from my phone.

Anyways:
After reading through, I think I am down for a 2 imprint/1 lynch setup. 2 is small enough that we can keep tabs on everyone, and as for the lynch, eh, I could go either way, and since it seems like that is the likely outcome....
I'd also like to note that I haven't done enough scumhunting, and focused too much on the overall strategy, but hopefully I can dig a little deeper in this post anyways.

SC: I think I had a more townie reading on him for the first part of the game. Moreso than most other players, anyways. I think he was honest in his defense of the arguements brought up against him. Then he started busting out the whole 'lynch DN, imprint me' plan and I just got confused. I don't know what he was trying to accompolish, and I don't think it helps the town. There is no way he can KNOW DN is scum (though I am inclined to be most suspicious of DN as well.) Along with the fact that if we were to vote him off the next day, it would imply we believe he was scum, so why would we believe what he said about his imprint? I don't see why we should imprint people unless we feel they are the most likely to be town, and putting a silly plan in place to disrupt that seems unhelpful. He has strongly been defending E_K, who I have a town read on as well. Finally, he says he is unsupportive of imprints. Again, I feel that a limited amount of imprints are in the towns best interest, as long as they are kept to a minimum. SC comes off looking a little scummy in my eyes.

Starbuck: I don't have a solid read at the momebnt. Where SC had a big problem with her defending DN when she also admitted to having a null read on him, I didn't agree. I don't see a problem with defending someone when you feel the arguements being used against them are shoddy, regardless of your personal read on them is. Truthfully, not much of a read on her, though maybe after thinking, it increases my suspicion on SC a little.

Messiah: Out of everyone, I get the strongest town vibe from him. In my reread, whenever I found myself thinking of soemthing, 9 times out of 10 Messiah asked the question in his next post.

Plum: Maybe I'm biased because she and I seem to share a lot in common regarding the basic way we should play out the early stages of the game. Hard to tell really, only a few posts, but when they come, they are big. (don't say it.....too easy......)

Buttonman: Yes the 'try and break the game' subtopic went on a bit, but I feel his heart was in the right place. Another player I find myself agreeing with a lot as I read his posts. I'm leaning townie.

Lew -> xReckx: Generally got a townie vibe from Lew before he left. xReckx joins and sums up. Disagrees with me on some points, but generally suspects the same people. I feel like I'm should really have a more solid stance on him one way or another, but I admit i don't, other than the fact that we have similar feelings on many people. Oh, and to answer this question:

Limerickx is opposed to lynching today... I don't understand why. We have a free random lynch to use WITHOUT the guarantee of another townie dying during the night.

I mentioned elsewhere that seeing as it is guaranteed that the mafia don't have a NK (unless we hand one to them) I felt that if there was no lynch, today+tomorrow would kind of be like one extended day, with the benefit from any imprint imformation we could get. Since then, I've been mostly convinced to the benefit of lynching regardless, because of the EXTRA informational benefit. Again, sorry to get to this question so late.

Farside: I admit I couldn't read his uber-long post. My eyes started hurting. At this point, I think another reread will be required tomorrow. Lets leave it at null for now.
In fact, I'll wrap up my thoughts on the rest and expand on it tomrorow

Pug: At first town, but shifted to null.

DN: Scum, offered bad ideas at the start, like, crazy-times. Imprint all, imprint none, its impossible to find scum because everyone could be doing a real great job, only a cop would be beneficial (and awful reasons why this is the case.)

VMD: Generally town, hasn't waivered too much

E_K: I actually think E_K is less scummy than most other people. Still undecided.

Sorry for sputtering out of gas there at the end, I'll try to basically finish up the last few people tomorrow, as well as ask some questions.

NOTE: (Shoot, lots of posts while I typed this) To answer the question about how many to imprint, I'd say imprint 2. I'm comfortable with the reasoning to lynch someone.

That being said:

Imprint: Messiah

Vote: Death Note

Currently I have votes on more than 2 people, but thats simply to keep imprint votes on the players I think are most likely town. My desire to keep imprints limited will, of course, trump my reads when imprints start going down.

[Limerickx]

Out of curiosity SC, what would you answer to your own question? Out of the three players near imprint, how many do you think might be mafia, and how many mafia do you think might be voting those townies close to imprint?

[Limerickx]

E_K, if that first part (asking him to answer first) was directed at my last post, I would have been happy to answer the question had SC directed it towards me. He specifically directed it towards Button, so I assume he did so with a purpose. I am just interested what he personally thinks about the matter himself.

[Limerickx]

Im never I agree with Button not answering, and I never demanded SC answer his own question first, and Im not sure why you think that was my intent. My only point was that I am curious as to what SC thinks about the his own question. He doesn't have to answer the question before Button if he is looking for a certain response from Button first, but Im making it known, in advance, that Id like to know what sort of answer he was looking for, and why he feels that way himself. Is that unreasonable?

[Limerickx]

Sorry for not being clearer. I think Button should answer, as I don't think the question is particularly pointed. I don't get the reluctance to answer.

I would also like to know SCs opinion, what is he looking for? Truthfully, I wouldn't mind hearing other players opinions, but since SC brought it up, and I get the feeling he has his own opinion on the matter set, Id like to know what he thinks.

Also, EK, im sure you've already mentioned it and i just missed it on my reread, but where does your mind boggle-ness regarding Messiah come from\is laid out?

[Limerickx]

While I can understand your view (and hey, Im one of the people voting to imprint him because he 'feels town') I don't see that view making his nearing an imprint as 'mindboggling.' Just seems a but strong.

[Limerickx]

This game is certainly unusual.
Nope, that's not even close. I know I can explain this. Say scum bus their partners roughly 1/4 of the time on D1. I think this is high, but I'm making a point. So one out of every four times the scumbag will bus, 3 out of every 4 times they will not.

That means that purely statistically, the liklihood of someone pressing hard for a scum lynch D1 is 75%. This does not clear them (and will never clear them totally) but IT DOES MAKE IT SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LIKELY that this person is town.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but is this right? If scum only bus 1 out of 4, that ONLY means it's a 75% chance that scum are not bussing one of their own, right? I understand that it means that (if your 1/4 number is right) 75% of the time you might predict that it is a TOWNIE pushing hard, for SOMEONE, but you're assuming that the target is mafia. Or are you saying that a single mafia also presses hard for a lynch AT ALL 1 out of 4 times, regardless of their target? I'm just a little confused about the logic here, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding the flow of what you're trying to say.

In all - Ohio (5) - Nevada, Florida, Arizona, Ohio, Colorado
Colorado (5) - Nevada, Ohio, Colorado, Iowa, Florida
Hawaii (5) - Nevada, Arizona, Kansas, Colorado, Hawaii

Deathnote, Starbuck, Limerick, Vala Del M, Messiah, XRECX farside and Buttonman are the unique individual members who are voting to imprint these three people.

Plum, Serial, elvis and Pug are not on this list.

I know for sure that there is scum on this list because I know my alignment, but surely most of you can see that with that many unique people there's almost certainly a heavy scum presence.

Of course the chances that of the 4 people not voting for the top 3, all of them being mafia is almost zero. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of those top three are mafia. But the fact remains (for me) that when it comes down to placing my votes, I put them on the people I felt were most likely town. Two of them are up there. I am aware that statistically there is an extremely high chance that there is at least one mafia voting along with me, and also a good chance that at least one of the top 3 are scum (mafia voting bloc and such,) but when it comes down to it, I would feel uncomfortable moving my vote to someone that I feel is LESS townie just to satisfy that particular statistical likelihood. This though also goes hand in hand with my desire to imprint only a few people. Being aware that it is statistically likely mafia are voting for people I am, and being unaware of if it is because they want to fit in or if it is because the top three have mafia in it, keeping the number if imprints low becomes sort of a safeguard which allows me to keep my imprint votes on those I feel best about. I already said that for me personally, I'm willing to move my votes off WHOEVER I might have them on (myself excluded) to ensure that the number of imprints remain low.

Add to THAT the fact that the FIRST THREE PEOPLE on the DeathNote wagon are Plum, elvis and Pug. I would be on that list too were it not for the fact that I am voting Starbuck
So of the people who found and started pushing the wagon that we all now think is scummy and have all jumped on, NONE of them are imprinting ANY of the 3 major imprint candidates

There is definitely scum amongst those three, possibly 2/3 of them. I remain heavily not in favour of an imprint.

Pug isn't voting to imprint ANYONE
Plum is only voting to imprint herself
Elvis is voting herself, and you. (Since this post she voted pug and plum, but at the time of this post, that wasn't the case)

As much as this is a very interesting point, it isn't like the first people on the DN train were voting for OTHER people who are 'better' options. Those three people had a total of three votes AT ALL for imprinting.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having a vote on Pug. Plum I am am neutral on, and Elvis I pretty much don't trust myself to be sure on way or another.

[Limerickx]

Do you mean an imprint vote or a regular vote?

Imprint. My Bad.

[Limerickx]

Aw come on now SC, REALLY?

[Limerickx]

Imprint: The Buttonmen
Imprint: Limerickx

Not happy about the hammer without even a single imprint at all I'd like to say.[/b]

[Limerickx]

I haven't self imprinted. You know why? I don't see it as a point right now. I know my role and I want to look for scum the best way I can right now and not worry about just me, myself and I.

As an aside, I still don't see this as a 'me myself and I' type thing. It is in your benefit that whoever if imprinted is on your side. Regardless of anyone else, you know YOUR role. If you're town, you want a town to be imprinted. you KNOW you're a town. If you're scum, you want scum to get an imprint.
Truthfully, I think NOT voting to give yourself an imprint is more scummy that voting to give yourself an imprint, if anything. I don't read into it at all, really, but if I had to pick one over the other, its not as big a deal to mafia which mafia get the imprint, as long as ONE of them do. The only way for a townie (at this point) to be 100% sure a townie gets an imprint is to imprint themselves.[/quote]

[Limerickx]

Another thing to mention SC, is there are two outcomes (taking a very broad view), a good outcome, and a bad outcome. There are two methods to try to achieve your goals, good ones, and bad. Just because we had a good outcome on night one, DOESN'T mean that your method was right! Just as good methods can result in bad outcomes, bad methods can result in good, but that doesn't mean we should continue doing the same thing! Now, ill have to read todays actions, as the day happened in no time flat, but this was bugging me from the first night, when you hammered when everyone else was talking about imprinting BEFORE the hammer. Yet you think you're some hero for hammering, and that because DN was mafia (Which most people were on board with anyways) that your logic works! Bad method, good result.

[Limerickx]

Florida was on the Deathnote wagon but not the Starbuck wagon.
Montana was on the Deathnote wagon but not the Starbuck wagon.
Kansas was on the Starbuck wagon but not the Deathnote wagon.
Ohio was on neither
Hawaii was on neither

I think Limerickx's spot is the most suspicious. Second last on the Deathnote wagon and not voting on D2.

I deleted stuff not related to me, hope thats alright

So, I am MOST suspicious as of that post, because I voted for scum and didn't vote for townie? If you want to say it was suspicious of me to be the second to last on DN, thats fine, but how was the fact that I wasn't on a vote for Starbuck, one that you initiated and rammed through instantly, make me suspicious? That lynch came and went before I even had a chance to read anything after the first lynch! Another example of the insane way your 'logic' works.

limerick mostly for his placement on the DN wagon and how he wanted to no-lynch and imprint the first day, which would have no-lynched instead of lynching scum. He just seemed to show up in a lot of the groupings I made of possible scum. However, I'm slightly conflicted on him because he seemed honest and conservative in his approach. I think we need ot hear more from him to be sure.

You said I defended a no-lynch day one, which would've resulted in not lynching the scum. I was in favor of a no-lynch early on in the day, and then, after hearing conversation about it, understood the benefit. As early as post 230 I said I understood the reasoning behind a lynch. I was still in favor of a no lynch, but I wasn't LOBBYING for a no lynch or anything.

Again, I voted for DN, and if you want to point out my place in line, thats fine, I understand I was second to last on that lynch. I wasn't on the vote for Starbuck, however, who I didn't find scummy, even IF your boy didnt ram a Starbuck lynch so fast. As far as my voting pattern goes, I voted for the scum who was lynched (late, yes), and didn't for the townie that was. Sneaky possible motives aside, aren't YOU the one that preaches 'lynch people who look like scum, lynch people who protect scum?' Where did I protect scum? I was personally in favor of a no-lynch night one early on, but that wasn't when people were stacking votes on DN, and regardless of placement, I DID vote for him. I don't see my voting pattern either 'looking like scum,' or 'defending scum.'

Imprint Limerickx
Imprint TheButtonmen

Best to imprint yourself, you are the only person you are 100% sure about. I think Buttonmen is the safest best to be town.

Vote: SerialClergyman

Seriously, your logic has been ALL OVER the place this game, from the possibility of imprinting everyone, to it being horrible to imprint ANYONE, it being ok to imprint only at 'x' time, blah blah blah. You talk about my place in voting DN because I was second to last on DN when you came in even later than me, hammering while everyone was discussion who/how many to imprint along with the lynch. You say it was suspicious of me to not vote on day 2, when you were too busy pushing through a lynch of SB in no time flat, who WAS town.
You've made logical arguements that would make a Logic 101 student's head spin, made crazy suggestions about how lynching someone DAY 1 should result in a line of lynchs 2 and 3 days, You ignore the fact that if we keep only 2 or so people imprinted, and there is an NK, the list of suspects is pretty small, to imply tha people who want to imprint only want to give power to the Mafia. Instead, you want to hold of imprinting while there is more townie/scum ratio, in favor of waiting until later on, when there is every chance that ratio is smaller?

As an aside, I'm curious if scum can get imprints that are NOT NK related. I might be missing this, but in the same sense that people for some reason think that all townie imprints are cop-related, why do we assume that all scum ones are NK related? Both are leaps of faith that I don't think are warranted. Can someone point to me if this has been talked about? There is every chance that I've missed it.[/quote]

[Limerickx]

Note to Button, I agree that 2-3 imprints should run into the future, not just for one day. I think I prefer 2 to 3 at this point, but as long as the number is small, that is what is important.

[Limerickx]

So, I am MOST suspicious as of that post, because I voted for scum and didn't vote for townie?

Yes. I think with most townies, the DeathNote flip was a pretty big factor in getting Starbuck lynched. I certainly felt they were heavily connected and pointed it out several times.

So the fact that I didn't agree with you makes me look suspicious, even though I ended up being right? Ever consider that you were wrong, and people might disagree with you, have reasons, and end up being right?

From a townie's point of view, if you were prepared to push DeathNote and be on his wagon but you

weren't

prepared to be on the Starbuck wagon then there's some serious disconnect in the thinking.

No. This is wrong. Please learn to logic. Just as townies can be suspicious of other townies and just end up being wrong, a townie can think a scum is good and end up being wrong. The WAY the defense is done is what is important. I didn't think Starbuck's defense of DN was a defense of "DN IS TOWN NOT MAFIA OMGWTFBBQ", I just felt she didn't like the logic being used in some cases against DN, and spoke on that specifically. I didn't get a scum read off Starbuck.

Someone like Buttonmen doesn't come away looking as suspicious because he's always thought I was scummy and wanted nothing to do with the cases I was pushing. But someone who was behind the DeathNote lynch but not the Starbuck lynch seems odd to me.

Even though I ended up being right. Ok.......

I think Limerickx's spot is the most suspicious. Second last on the Deathnote wagon and not voting on D2.

Limerickx's style reads town to me and his V/LAs might account for some of what I noted. He also had some interactions with DeathNote early that read as town to me.

The first quote was from yesterday, the second was today. Why did you suddenly change your mind on me? YESTERDAY I was super suspicious based on my voting pattern, but now I'm not because if my style? Could it be that because I voted for you, and pointed out your OWN voting pattern you'd rather back off calling me scummy? Now that you have three votes on you?

Related to this, can we also talk about how funny it is that you are NOW in favor of 2-3 imprint and a no lynch, now that you happen to have 3 votes to lynch you? The first night imprinting was such a bad idea, and lynching was good, so much so that you felt the need to hammer while everyone else was talking about imprinting, but now that you're in the hot seat, lets imprint and not lynch?

[Limerickx]

Reply to SC:

First of all, creating numbers to lay out my 'points' is misleading, dontcha think? Regardless of that fact, I'll answer in kind:

This happened before Starbuck's flip (clearly). If I was wrong about Starbuck, I was always in favour of turning to imprints.

1a) Of course you would be in favor of imprinting with no lynch AFTER Starbuck flipped. If she was town, all the heat would be on you! What better way to try and stem that then say 'Lets imprint and not lynch guys,' right when a townie who was lynched based off your push flips town.

I was always in favour of turning to imprints. It was only when we had a good lead on scum that I thought imprinting was a bad idea.

1b)One of your entire arguments against imprinting night one was that the ratio was so high, yet you were so sure that both DN and Starbuck were scum. If that were the case, however, that would leave only 2 scum unaccounted for, and 10 townies! Even if you weren't 100% sure on starbuck, it would still be 3 to 9, but neither Starbuck nor DN were anywhere NEAR getting imprinted. So your top two suspects weren't close to getting imprints, so what was the problem with imprinting then, so much so that you had to hammer someone who wasn't close to being imprinted? You think voting for imprints when we have ideas who scum are is a worse idea then when we don't? Wouldn't we have a better chance of not giving imprints to scum when we have ideas of who they are? So now we were wrong about Starbuck. The trail (as laid out by you) is cold. Now is the PERFECT time to lay out the imprints! Sarcasm!

I am conflicted about you. You remain the most suspicious spot on wagon analysis. Your play has been quite townie though. I'm in favour of listing thoughts as they come to me and being honest about my reads. So I don't think your town now nor did I think you were scum yesterday. I'm struggling to determine what your alignment is.

2a) I'm willing to consider the fact that you were just laying out your thoughts one at a time, the first being my voting pattern is scummy (which again, compared to your own is CERTAINLY not more scummy) and that my posting habits are townie. Again, I'm willing to consider that is the truth, (though I can't say I agree with the logic, in fact, I'll say the opposite.)

Were I scum, I'd have known that Starbuck's lynch would bring a metric shit-ton of suspicion on me, not to mention my various pleas to lynch me to prove my towniness.

2b) So, as I said above, thats why you said that if Starbuck flipped town, we should imprint and not lynch. Starbuck flipping town brings lots of heat on you, good thing you suggested we imprint and not lynch in advance!

The problem comes about from the situation. There are 3 scum, they all know Starbuck is town and can daytalk. They are presented with an absolute gift, a townie pushing hard the lynch of another townie.

So the question one must attempt to answer is what they would do with themselves. A lynch of Starbuck (or even myself) would be easy to manufacture and they could essentially choose to be on it or not.

Deathnote's wagon was different, it really spring up. So yes, it's definitely odd to me that you would be on DN's wagon and not on SBs.

This boggles my mind. Does anyone else agree with this? Maybe I'm missing something. If I was scummy sitting out, because I apparently could so easily, that would leave only TWO mafia to set up an 'easy to manufacture' lynch of Starbuck on day two, within 40 hours of the day starting, with 4 out of 8 townies also needing to get on board. Please, really? THAT makes the most sense? Also, how did DNs wagon 'spring up' any faster than Starbucks?
Is everyone who didn't vote for Starbuck suspicious because of that fact in your eyes? Are they REALLY more suspicious that people who actually voted for Starbuck?
Again, how can you really think my voting pattern is suspicious because I joined late on a mafia lynch, and wasn't on a townie lynch, when you were the LAST on a mafia lynch, hammering when we were discussing who should be imprinted, then was FIRST on, and pushed for a lynch on a townie, while saying that we should imprint and not lynch if Starbuck flips town on the wagon you started yourself? There is no way my voting pattern is more suspicious than yours.

Were you not around for much of D2?

Truthfully no, not that much, it happened rather fast. I only got to check in from my phone a few times.

[Limerickx]

SC: Fair enough RE: Diminishing returns. I think we both made our points.

I've also recently become more suspicious of Messiah as well. I used to think he was town, but the arguments that he is more reactive in agreeing, and his voting pattern as well has aroused my suspicion a bit.

[Limerickx]

As a note E_K, imprinting and not lynching night one wouldn't have necessarily saved DN, im fairly sure he wouldve been lynched the next day anyways, which you don't seem to account for.

[Limerickx]

Unvote Serial Clergyman

I'll leave my imprint votes on Buttonmen and Myself.

2 imprints please and thank you.

[Limerickx]

Unlike you, I don't pretend to be SURE about my votes, my vote was on you because I felt you were most likely to be mafia.

Snarkyness aside, I switched my vote because I'm willing to go along with the no lynch/imprint plan. In fact, I was in favor of that plan numerous times thoughout the game (my 'extension of a day' idea)

Sidenote: 'Heart' is my preferred imprint state too :-p

[Limerickx]

I'm fairly sure you know what I meant and I am far from the only one guilty of snark this game.

Yes, at this point, I am still most suspicious of you. I removed my vote on you in a show of support for the 'imprint/no lynch' plan.

[Limerickx]

Off the top of my head (posting from my phone at the moment) I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK. Id rather that neither get an imprint, if i had my choice.

[Limerickx]

Would these thoughts affect the imprint?

[Limerickx]

SC, if that means that they are related to the imprint, then share, and let people decide if they agree or not :-p

[Limerickx]

CTD, I'd be interested as to where you stand on the lynch-noimprint/lynch-imprint/nolynch-imprint decision. If you would include that in your post, I would appreciate it.

[Limerickx]

Agreed Reck, as long as we agree that we're not going to lynch, the formality of voting for the NL can wait until after we figure out who the other imprint is (Button is already locked in, of course)

[Limerickx]

So currently, only CTD and E_K don't have imprint votes out, and unless they both vote to imprint Pug, some moving of imprint votes will be in order.

Buttonmen, at the moment you only have one imprint vote out, on yourself. Seeing as one would assume that you being locked in for an imprint means people find you most town-ish, are you considering imprinting anywhere else?

[Limerickx]

Agreed with less imprints. While I'd prefer to receive an imprint over Pug for obvious reasons, I agree that two is enough.

I like CTDs contributions so far as well!

[Limerickx]

I've been fairly clear that I am most suspicious of SC. I don't like the logic he uses....anywhere. I didn't like the hammer of DN when everyone else was talking about imprinting. 'Taking matters into your own hands' always puts me ill at ease. He led what I felt was a weak SB lynch in day 2. He pointed out other players poor voting records, when his was most suspicious of anyone else’s. He started favoring imprinting and not lynching only after SBs lynch, which would put him under the most suspicion.

I started with a town read on Messiah, but that decreased as the game went on. Since being replaced by CTD, I am feeling much better, and wonder if my increasing suspicion of Messiah was simply the result of Messiah being less and less involved, and maybe my initial read was correct.

Plum, I find hard to get a read on. Really long catch-up posts, lots of V/LA. I can admit when I just ::shrug:: at times. I DO note that she is not voting to imprint any of the top getters, for what it’s worth, and her only vote imprint vote other than the one for herself rests on Elvis, who, whatever your feeling are regarding her, I just don't think is one of the 'safer' picks. In other words, if Buttonmen turned out being scum, I'd be like "Really? Well, he fooled me." If Elvis turned out to be scum, would anyone be THAT surprised?

On that note: I've changed my mind on Elvis plenty during the game. Early on I thought she was town, and then scum, and now I have no idea. Her/SCs crazy buddying is just mystifying to me, and I think I just find myself not going along with a bunch of her reads, so I am inclined to consider her a little shady.

Buttonmen: I voted to imprint him, so that should be an indicator that I think he is town. Same reasons apply as to most people.

xReckx: I get a bad vibe off. I didn't get where he was going with Farside digging a hole for herself, He seems to be pushing hard for a Pug imprint (followed by relative silence from Pug, one of the reasons why I am reluctant to vote to imprint Pug)
In fact, I think this deserves a little more 'indepthness', which I'll do in a following post.

Farside: Fairly townish. Not comfortable enough to imprint

Pug: I was fairly townish, but the more I think about it, I'm not sure exactly why.

VMD: At one point, I was fairly sure she was townish (I believe she was my first imprint vote, if I remember correctly) As the game went on, I waivered more and more, and now would really like to hear from whoever imprints her to see what is up.

Full disclosure, these responses are pretty much all 'just how I'm feeling at the moment,' so if you want more detailed stuff on anyone, let me know.

Here would be my list (Least to most suspicious)

Good Guys:
Limerickx
TheButtonmen

Good'ish' Guys:
CrashTestDummy
Pug89
Farside22

::Shrug::
ValaMalDoran('s eventual replacement)
Plum

Bad'ish' Guys':
Elvis_Knits
xRECKONERx

Bad Guys:
SerialClergyman

[Limerickx]

Interesting xRECKONERx:

Post 779:

Farside is digging herself a hole.

Again, I'm not sure what he meant by this. SC asked him shortly after.

Post 802: Doesn't respond to request to clarify as to how Farside is digging herself into a hole, and asks people to start voting yay or nay to imprinting/nolynch.

Post 810:

Farside, at first, didn't come off that scummy to me... but it seems the more she tries to defend herself, the more she digs her own grave. It's like I didn't see anything at first, but ek's attacks on her are actually showing her in a different light. It's nothing drastic, not yet at least, but she seems to be failing to defend herself properly.

Answering SCs question on how Farside is digging herself a hole. This doesn't seem to be an answer though does it? Basically, I still don't understand what xRECK saw, and this is almost like repeating himself using different words.

Post 819: In which we learn xRECK favors himself, Pug and Messiah (Though he has an imprint vote on E_K and doesn't on Messiah (Now CTD)

Post 821: Why? Because of town reads. Messiah least, but he thinks we can get info based on his imprinting (though I am not sure why? I admit that I should have asked at that point. xRECKx, how would we have obtained more/less info with a Messiah imprint, just out of curiosity)

Post 835: We should imprint and goto night phase, says xRECK. Fair enough.

Post 839:

Let's imprint Pug and... well, shit, I guess I'll go with Imprint: Buttonmen just to get one out of the way.

I don't like that he said 'lets imprint Pug and....' as if it were a foregone conclusion that Pug was obviously going to be imprinted. Pug was still two votes away, and even though Pug was closest other than Buttonmen, something about this rubbed me the wrong way. Almost everyone had voted imprints and Pug was still two short. Why say it like Pug was certain to be imprinted?

Post 842: xRECK rightly notes that we want to make sure that we get the second imprint in without risking a no-lynch. While I agree, the fact that this followed his comment about Pug almost certainly getting an imprint, makes me wonder if he wanted to be sure Pug got his imprint before going to night.

Maybe I'm reading too far into it, but his comments on Farside that I disagreed with, along with the 'push for pug' (he is also voting to imprint Plum and E_K, I will note here) makes me stop and pause. It also is enough to make me withhold my own imprint vote from Pug, especially because SC is also on the 'imprint Pug' crew.
.

[Limerickx]

December 23

So, I am down for the no-lynch and imprint 2 people plan. But I'm still voting farside for the moment because I figure why not use my time wisely.

I guess buttonmen should get the imprint. He's probably most likely to be town although I don't care for the way he thinks (and thus don't love him being a town leader, even if he is town). But I guess it's better to have someone you're pretty sure is town even if they rub you the wrong way.

I'm not sure who I want as the second at this point. Pug is the closest to imprint I think. Pug hasn't done too much I can find fault in, and he was not part of the incest voting from D1 which is a point in his favor. My only reservation is he hasn't been as involved in the game, not posting as much, not really originating cases or scum hunting that much.

(I mean, I would obviously trust myself or SC to get imprints but I know that's not happening.)

December 28

Let's just stick with the one imprint and no-lynch

Why the change? You made one post on the 26th saying you were still here (holidays) but your feelings were apparent. Why the switch to a 1 imprint no lynch day?

[Limerickx]

Agreed regarding 'imprint people we are confident are town.'

RECK, I never said you said Pug was CERTAIN to get an imprint. I said that the way you worded it carried a strong suggestion that Pug was going to be the one. It was the way I read it. Added to the fact that SC (someone I think is very suspicious) is voting to imprint Pug, and the fact that your comments regarding Farside's 'hole-digging' were somewhat lacking, (in my eyes) and the fact that you made sure that there was no way a NL was going through until a 2nd imprint was taken care of (again, I want to clarify that in a bubble, I agree 100% with this, but when combined to my initial inklings of suspicion regarding your prior comment about Pug, made me uneasy.) Makes me uncomfortable giving Pug an imprint, and makes me more suspicious of you.

E_K what do you think about what CTD has said since replacing Messiah?

[Limerickx]

The reason which I felt were strong for imprinting 2 over 1 is that in the event an imprint was something like a blocker/tracker type, it could be used to check the first user. Thats one reason I can think of.

Like most things in this setup, its a risk/reward proposition, what level of risk are you most willing to take?

[Limerickx]

Checking in! New years at the bar, what dedication!

I wanted to ask, it appears that we've leant away from imprinting two-no lynch to either lynch one-no lynch or lynch plus one imprint. Id like to stick with two imprint at the least and here is why.

Before imprinting buttonmen
, I think its safe to say we were in favor of two imprint. If we imagine we were wrong about button (not that I think it is the case, I voted to imprint him after all) then it would be in the mafias best imprint to cut the imprinting there. Id rather safeguard against this. If people want to couple this with a lynch, well, whatever.

Am I really off base with this? Being too paranoid?

[Limerickx]

@limerick: if you were given an investigation role who would you look into and why?

Hadn't considered it too much, but without going back and rereading posts, I'd lean towards one of SC, xRECx, or E_K most likely.

Limerick, I don't like your reasoning but I'm reluctatnt to jump on you because it's NYE and maybe a little boisterous. Come explain it a bit further when you're sober

To clarify what I was getting at last night, I feel (and maybe its just me misinterpreting the situation) like as soon as Button was imprinted, there seemed to be a shift away from (what I felt) was the consensus of a two imprint/no lynch night, to a lot of conversation about the possibility of a one imprint night with the possibility of a lynch. Generally, I guess I'm the sort of person to stop and pause when one event sets of a change like that.

Basically, I felt that the imprinting of Button caused a shift in the mindset of what the plan for the rest of the day was going to be. Is this because Button is mafia, so the mafia are trying to leave the night at one imprint on Button? Could it be that people are simply having second thoughts about a second imprint? Maybe its the players who replaced in having a different opinion. Maybe its all in my head? I think these are all possibilities, and there are probably more as well, but I wanted to bring up that I noticed this change. Does anyone else see this, or is it just me?

I personally would like to do a second imprint, if only because I would feel a lot more at ease about not possibly being manipulated in some way. I also think that the extra risk of a second imprint is worth the reward, as many roles relate to other PRs (tracker being the most relevant.)

Thoughts?

[Limerickx]

If I had an investigation I would use it on CTD. This is because I think messiah was scummy, and CTD is making good strong posts. He's the sort of guy I REALLY want to know if he's town or scum, because he'd be very useful to the town if he's confirmed innocent and would be very difficult to get lynched if he was scum.

I know we haven't agreed on much this game SC, but I'll give credit where its due, this is a VERY good point, and if I were to get imprinted along with an investigation role, I might very well check up on CTD for this very reason. Good stuff SC.

[Limerickx]

If by mate you mean me, not much has changed from last time:

You and xRECKx make up my top two, along with a little suspicion on E_K. If xRECKx were to flip scum, then my suspicion on Pug goes up a lot as well.

[Limerickx]

I did.

What about scumReck makes you think scumpug?

This is pretty much summed up in my Post 857 where I thought that xRECK was trying to nudge Pug into an imprint before the end of the night, almost like a 'well guys, Pug is going to be the imprint, lets go ahead and finish it off and take it to night.' Its possible I saw something where there was nothing, but due to the fact that I was suspicious of xRECK before, it was enough to catch my attention. If xRECK WERE to flip scum, it would make me a bit more suspicious of Pug. Certainly not an "If xRECK then pug" level of strength (after all, maybe Button is sneaky scum and xRECK just wanted to get on with it), but it would certainly increase my suspicion.

[Limerickx]

E_K and SC, I think the problem people have with your buddying is the LEVEL that it is apparent, and the earliness in which it happened.

You give the appearance that you're unflexable in your assurance that the other is town, a view that you seemed to cement VERY VERY early on in the game. Now, you just said you would change if the situation warrants, and thats fine, but its the APPEARANCE that you put out that puts people on edge.

Its kind of like the idea of 'professional skepticism' in the accounting world. When someone is auditing a company, they don't start with the assumption that there is fraud, and they don't assume the opposite. It could be the last day, and nothing has been found up to that point, but you still need to look at each piece as if it was something new. Your interactions with E_K give the vibe that your reliance on each other would make it hard to spot scumminess in the others play, because you're looking for someone to bounce ideas off of only, and considering if their play is scummy....somewhere near the bottom.

[Limerickx]

Soc, my last scumlist is found here in Post 856

Or course, replacement players replace old players.
Not much has changed on my end. If anything, xRECK might be my number one suspect over SC. I'm also going to keep CTD more in mind, only because his predecessor was suspicious in my mind.

Other than that, I've seen little to substantially change my list as it was in that post.

[Limerickx]

Also Socrates, I'll agree that as far as SC/E_K are concerned, I'd imagine its far far more likely that either both are town, or it is a one mafia to one townie relationship. Of course, it could be some sort of crazy gambit, but I find it unlikely.

That being said, its easy to see why it rubs people the wrong way, as it DOES appear like it would prevent one from analyzing the other honestly, and it DID form so early in the game, when I dont think either could have been that sure about the other.

[Limerickx]

What were you doing day 2 when SC was leading what you felt was a bad lynch?
Regarding your last two points, what would you

expect

a town SC to do, that those points are scummy?

First of all, I said 'weak lynch.' not bad lynch, which I think is important to differentiate. I felt it was weak in that in that I didn't feel his reasons for leading the lynch were as rock solid as he did (because he was oh-so-sure!.) If I remember correctly, his main reason for a lynch was that Starbuck was defending DN. I didn't feel like she was defending DN, but saying that the arguments used against DN weren't completely logical, or that they had flaws. I had very little problem with SC thinking Starbucks actions were scummy, but he acted like his opinion was 100% right, no doubt about it.

First question (what was I doing for two days) SC hammered Wednesday night. I posted my imprints, and noted I didn't like SCs hammer when everyone else was talking about imprint issues. I went to sleep after making a comment to farside about voting to imprint yourself.
Thursday: Work until late, then dinner with girlfriend, then home to pack (Atlantic City.) Checked the board, didn't post. Rereading, it seemed that the Starbuck movement was starting to build, but I must not have thought anything so important was going on that I had to carefully read everything and post (I might have still been mad at SC, I admit to being grumpy at his hammer for a little bit)
Friday: Work late, went straight to a bus to Atlantic City. Checked my phone on the trip and saw the mounting stuff against Starbuck. Was slightly confused at how strong it seemed to be getting, decided to read everything when I got the chance. Didn't get to, Messiah hammered Friday night.

Regarding my last two points:
a) Regarding poor voting records re:SC. Fair, I might have worded this poorly. I was more bothered by the fact that he did this POORLY in my mind (I took offense with him criticizing my voting record (second to last on DN, not on SB) when in my mind, his was far worse (he hammered DN when people were talking about potential imprints and started and pushed the lynch on SB (townie.)) So while analyzing voting records can of course be of great value, it was more about his conclusion and his logic behind it, and after pointing out that his record was quite possibly the worst of anyone, he kept trying to make it seem like the fact that I wasn't on the SB lynch made me MORE suspicious that him, that not voting for Starbuck meant I was not scummy for not recognizing the greatness of his case (which was wrong!)
b) Regarding when he started favoring imprints: SC was in favor of imprinting and not lynching only AFTER Starbuck was lynched, a lynch he started and pushed for. Not on the first day, not on the second day, only after the person he pushed to lynch flipped townie.

Would you please explain what you mean by your town read decreased as time went on? What did he do that you don't like?

I think that I felt good about Messiah at first, but that might have just been because he agreed with what I had to say regarding the theory of this games mechanics early on. As the game went on, I just felt like that was a lot of what he did, that I felt good about him because he thought my ideas on game theory were good (yay! someone thinks my ideas are right!) and for not much else. In Messiahs case, its more like I was really happy at the start, and a 'lack of maintenance' started to erode it as I realized that I got a townie vibe for maybe the wrong reasons. It kind of hard to say really, kind of a gut thing I guess.

So you don't feel Plum could justify a town read on Elvis?

I wouldn't put it that way. Its kind of just surprising. I find it odd that Plum gets a town read on Elvis and nobody else more (or in other words, Elvis is MOST TOWN) Elvis (if I recall, this is 100% off memory, so I may be mistaken, Elvis, did you ever say something along these lines?) even noted herself that she wouldn't be surprised if she never got an imprint. I just find it funny that Plum would find Elvis so much more town than anyone else, not that she got a town vibe off her AT ALL.

What has buttonmen done other than the early discussions about gamebreaking that makes you think he is town?

I think he is fairly open about who is he suspicious of, is unapologetic about his thoughts and theories (Its funny, sometimes I think I'd be much less suspicious of SC if I thought his crazytime logic made an ounce of sense.) When he responds to other people asking questions I don't get the feeling that he has to try to make stuff up to answer. Truthfully, his gamebreak logic is one of the smaller reasons I get a town vibe off him. I felt good about him before that too.

Did you ever do this 'indepthness'?

Yes, in the next post, right HERE. I recently linked to this post to answer to SC why I thought that if xRECK were to ever flip scum, I would be more suspicious of Pug.

Re: Buttonmen's game breaking stuff. Can someone tell me why this makes him likely town? I'll tell you this much, the first thing I would do as scum in this type of game would be to play a game of "Lets break the setup guys!" in order to score easy town points while being completely comfortable in the thought that any half competent Mod or their reviewers would have caught any gamebreaking strategy's. It allows one to avoid taking any alignment significant stances while still appearing to have to towns best interest at heart.

Is it scummy? Hell no.
Is it null? hell yes.

I think saying NULL is a little strong, but I agree that it shouldn't be what swings someone from 'he is mafia' to 'he is townie' side. For me the fact that I get good vibes from Button to begin with is augmented by the fact that even if a gamebreaking strategy is shut down for one way or another, thinking about things can still help think about BETTER ways to play. If I recall, SC had some things to say on the topic of gamebreaking around the same time, but of course he is still high up on my scumlist! But I do agree to the basic premise of this.

Any other questions for me? I gather you asked these of me mainly because Pug and I are the next two highest imprint vote getters, and assuming that we do imprint one other person, I'd of course want it to be me (I'm on record as saying that NOT wanting an imprint is more scummy than the vice-versa)

[Limerickx]

One more note Socrates, I don't know what the Mod would answer re: your question about 'paranoid or naive cop investigation as a purely negative imprint?' but I would imagine the LOGICAL answer would be that there is nothing good about those roles, assuming they are given to a townie. Since the role is lost the next day, there is zero way (that I can think of) that getting this role would have any use. Just my opinion.

[Limerickx]

Limrickx, I don't see a single thing in your case on Serial that is actually scummy.

Being confident is your reads is NOT an alignment tell. The fact that you are using it to both cast suspicion on SC and to explain a town read on Button is evidence of that. Don't think that by hanging a lampshade on it will let you get away with contradictory logic.

Again, being confident is fine, but using bad logic is not. When SC makes point I disagree with, and defends them in ways that make my head hurt, it makes me uncomfortable about him. SB was not just suspicious in his mind, but guilty to the extent that not voting for her makes me scummy? He sets up huge lists of 'lets lynch this person, then if s/he slips x, we lynch y, and if that person flips z we lynch a, as if nothing would happen in between that would change abything? Be certain about your reads, sure. That doesn't mean I have to like how he does it, do I? I even said:

(Its funny, sometimes I think I'd be much less suspicious of SC if I thought his crazytime logic made an ounce of sense.)

so I'm not sure your 'contradictory logic' line is fair, when his being confident is prob one of the bigger reasons I waiver on him that anything else. Again, its the METHOD, not the result (his being confident in his reads)

Hammering to cut off discussion is about the lamest point one can make when you consider the fact that the game is

functionally nightless

. You guys are talking, someone hammers, and then... you guys go on talking.

Sorry, but I disagree. You don't think a case can be made that by taking it to the next day, you reset the vote count for imprints and can try to change who might get those imprints? Look who were the top imprint getters at the end of day 1. VMD (Now KoC), Messiah (now CTD) and Button. All had 5 votes to imprint. Now, Button has been imprinted. The other top two? KoC has 1 imprint vote, and CTD has 0. Those two players were close to getting imprinted before SC hammered, and now they are nowhere close. Are you saying there isn't a chance that those two were town, and by hammering, SC was able to prevent them from being imprinted? Not only that, but its 'the lamest point?' Its possible that SC is town, and he DID prevent scum from being imprinted. But scum know who are town, and townies are not sure. Taking matters into your own hands to ensure people you don't want imprinted aren't makes me more uncomfortable then assuming that SC has the entire scum team locked up day 1 and being happy about it. If SC were to get lynched and flip scum, I imagine I'd feel a lot better about those two players (especially CTD)

You still haven't answered why Serial being pro-imprints today is

scummy

and you didn't answer my question about what you would have expected a town SC to do differently.

Because changing what you think is the best approach based on keeping yourself alive is suspicious in my mind. SC wasn't in favor of imprinting with no lynch on night one, obviously and he was against imprints on night two. Now imprinting is a good idea in his mind, and I believe he said so before the SB flip (after she was lynched, but before she flipped) I don't like flip flopping when it is in your best interest alone. I would expect a town SC to think about what is best for the town on every occasion. Changing your mind on what that may be is one thing, but changing your mind the instant that continuing with what you have been advocating is to your detriment is another.

I don't really have issue with anything else you wrote. One observation is that I don't find it surprising that you are the top imprint getter, since none of your reads are controversial or in conflict with the rest of the town's.

I don't know. I'm going to assume that by 'the town's' you mean 'the players as a whole,' and not that you made a big scum slipup :-p but I think it was kind of a slow rise to being near the top of the imprinting. I was near the bottom for a while, and then one day I noticed I was near the top. All I can say is that I personally was surprised.

As a note, if we were to lynch, Id vote xRECK. I appreciate that your questions DID make me rethink my thoughts on SC, to the point where xRECK is now a 'better' choice.

[Limerickx]

Agreed about hating the 'shooting is investigating' comment. Due to the fact that we could assume any NKs come from a scum imprint, a Vig kill just throws things into confusion. Bad touch. BAAAAAAD touch.

[Limerickx]

Even if the knowledge of a non-lynch might result in less pressure on people, getting the imprints right (or at least doing our due diligence) is just as important. If the alternative of making sure we're comfortable with imprints is rushing and alowing scumster getting a power for the ENTIRE GAME, then I want to make sure the right people are imprinted. In mind, a 'lets just get the imprints over with' attitude is at least dangerous, and at most, suspicious.

[Limerickx]

Question for SC:

What is your personal opinion on me? I haven't heard much from you regarding me since you said my voting record was spotty. Where on the spectrum of scum (tm) would I fall in your eyes, and why?

I ask because Socrates questioning me as one of the higher (not that upon review, I'm that close) imprint possibilities (and Soc is now right up there with Pug and me. Wee!) made me curious, and truthfully, more determined to get that last imprint spot.

[Limerickx]

Don't know, but the reason that I'd like to be imprinted isn't that I think I'm so obv town, its that being imprinted most benefits my team (as stated before, I know my role, I don't know anyone elses, thus best if I get the imprint blahblahblah)

Generally? I don't think I HAVE done anything that is oh-so-obv town, which is why I was slightly surprised that Soc said he WASN'T surprised that I was one of the next in line to get an imprint. I was fairly surprised myself (mainly because I get the whole 'uninteresting' aspect)

Just curious as to your take.

[Limerickx]

The (possible) reason why you're that high on the imprint list (exlcusing even the possibility you are scum and have scummates on your imprint wagon) is that since you've done nothing controversial and never accused an innocent, noone has something that sticks in their mind about you being scummy.

Except for you right? I also said I suspect xRECK, as another note, and if xRECK, then Pug moves up my list too.

Also, I never said my answer wasn't applicable to both town and scum. I know it is, but that doesn't mean its not the reason I'd want to be imprinted. It is. I was really just curious as to your opinion. If I was looking to solicit votes, trust me, you wouldn't be the first person I'd turn to.

[Limerickx]

I asked for your opinion because if there is ONE thing which I could count on, it was a 'real' answer. I usually disagree with your opinion, but at least I do so FOR A REASON.

Was I late on the xRECK bandwagon? I don't recall that being the case, but I could be wrong.

[Limerickx]

Why?

Because as I told Soc, if I agreed with your crazy logic half the time, Id be a lot more comfortable with you. You aren't here to make friends, you're here to tell people your reads, and why you think they are right.

[Limerickx]

Also, fair enough on the xRECK list, color me incorrect.

[Limerickx]

I have no idea why being interested in your particular opinion is suspicious to you. You're putting a ton of words in my mouth that come from nowhere, so it kind of hard to respond to things you say in response to things I never asserted. Woo.

[Limerickx]

Are you saying that because I think you're scummy I can't ask you anything because I want to hear your opinion on it?

[Limerickx]

Nope, I'm saying it's odd that you would expect an honest answer from someone you think is scum.

Where did I say honest?

[Limerickx]

Thats a list from your catchup post way back day 1 after you replaced in.

[Limerickx]

I find myself agreeing with this, there's not enough pressure on people today however I also don't want to be the only one imprinted. Doing a re-read of certian exchanges and a ISO; will probably do something crazy tommorow.

Where was the craziness?!?!?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

[Limerickx]

I find myself agreeing with this, there's not enough pressure on people today however I also don't want to be the only one imprinted. Doing a re-read of certian exchanges and a ISO; will probably do something crazy tommorow.

Where was the craziness?!?!?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

We had three replacements today; I've been sitting back and seeing what they are bringing to the table and what they bring up along with how they interact with the town as that many replacments really disturbs my read on certian people.

The last replacement joined almost a week ago! Certainly you've seen SOMETHING from SOMEONE during this time.

I'm inclined to agree with E_K on this. I voted you for an imprint, but the lack of content since then is uncomforting.

[Limerickx]

I would be uncomfortable about it too if it wasn't me. I am scratching my head.

[Limerickx]

Happy about it, yes, but kind of 'buh?'

[Limerickx]

Actually E_K, I worried about the same things as you at first, but after thinking about it, I don't see the risk/reward benefit for 2 scum to quick hammer an imprint on me. Any benefit that could be had from 'setting me up' by casting suspicion on me with two quick votes is reduced by the potential harm that whatever my imprint is can make, so I hope.

[Limerickx]

If there is a kill there are 2 players to look at. As buttonman already expressed an interest in "vigging" SC I would be looking more closely at him.
But saying this doesn't give anyone *cough* limerick a free pass if there is a death tonight.

Fair enough, I have ZERO intention of using a kill if I were to get one.

Vote: No Lynch

[Limerickx]

Also just a theory question because there was a lot going on you two for wanting to imprint each other.
Do you think scum would imprint their scum partners and themselves in the same post?

Regarding your theory question, I think they would imprint in the same post. I think handing out imprints piecemeal is more suspicious. If scum were to have a post with one or two imprints, and then, a page or two later, post with an additional imprint, the question 'why did you decide to now imprint 'x'' would almost certainly come up. By keeping the imprints together, less questions are asked. Thats my opinion at least.

Essentially, whenever imprints have been decided, Serial, Elvis and Plum have been nowhere near those being imprinted.

As a side note: Plum was was voting to imprint me before Soc replaced in.

[Limerickx]

I'd rather not imprint Farside, for 2 main reasons.

a) Keeps the imprint pool smaller
b) Goes along with my post HERE where I said that I was uncomfortable with doing more/less imprinting or lynching that what we had generally decided before everyone starting voting for imprints in earnest.

This isn't anything about my personal read on Farside (who I've had town vibes off of) but more of a 'keeping the game in front of me' sort of thing.

[Limerickx]

I don't see how those two are the only options at all.

[Limerickx]

Knight of Cydonia; I don’t think he’s scum at this moment, but I'd also prefer him not to get an imprint at this time.

You either think I'm town, and therefore would be willing to imprint me, or think I'm scum, and therefore do not. This isn't a multi faction game, people here are scum or town, and the fact that you've got fence posts up your arse for about half the players in the game at this point is most irksome. You don't think I'm scum - ergo, you must think I am town/leaning town. You *should* want town players imprinted as a townie. Saying "I don't think you're scum, but I won't imprint you" is crazy.

Don't forget about this either (I certainly forgot about it)

I don't see how this makes any sense. I have good vibes from Farside, but I don't want to imprint farside for a few reasons.

a) Only wanted 2 imprints
b) Saying I think someone is more likely town than scum =/= I know they are town and can imprint them with no reservations.

I'm starting to feel the bad vibes on KoC that everyone else is feeling.

[Limerickx]

I'm curious as to what people think about players who are lurking more now that the imprints are cast. Lurking is bad in general, but do you think it is likely that scum would try and post less (especially less possible incriminating things) after the imprints have been cast, trying to bring less attention to themselves near the end of the day in the hopes that a possible cop-imprint might forget about them?

[Limerickx]

The main reason Limerickx, TheButtonmen and KoC don't want her imprinted is apparently because they don't want to deviate from the plan of having only 2 imprints. In my eyes, that's weak. If you are reasonably sure someone is town, there's no reason not to get them imprinted, plans be damned. More imprinted townies is always better.

In a bubble, yes. The fact still stands that if people say 'lets do 2 imprints' and two imprints are made, a movement saying 'hey, lets add one more' afterwards makes me feel uneasy. I said that before I was imprinted too, so its not like I'm being greedy, or changing my mind because I got an imprint.

Personally, yes, I think farside is more likely town than scum. No, that doesn't mean I am compelled to imprint her. I'm being open about that fact, my reasons for not wanting her imprinted are not because I get a scum vibe from her. I'm not SURE she isn't scum though, and that is important.

If a NK happens, guess what? I KNOW that button is scum. I'm fine with that. Even if I was the worst person in the world at convincing other people of my innocence, worst case is button goes down the next day, and there is some good evidence that can be used to find scum buddies (people who voted to lynch me). Things get more hairy as the imprints go up.

As far as the 'not many people jumped on the bandwagon to imprint = she doesn't have ties,' I also don't know if thats the case. If Button and myself are both town, and scum is trying to slip in an imprint on one of their own at the last second, a future farside scumflip can be pretty incriminating. Why jump on a wagon that appeared out of nowhere when it could later be suspect? You can feel it out, are townies joining? Could a scum slip in slowly and be part of a crowd? If not, no harm lost, farside isn't imprinted, and you have a clean slate next day.

But yes, long story short, the first point is still key. Last minute changes to plans make me uncomfortable, and that would be true even if I wasn't imprinted.

[Limerickx]

limerick hypothetical question for you.
Say you were not the one imprinted and we had 2 imprints already. Soon someone brings up the idea that they feel you are town and should be imprinted as well. Would you still stand there saying no don't imprint me I stand by the 2 imprint idea?

I never say you SHOULD be against it? I understand why you want to be imprinted. On the other hand, if I were in your shoes, I would understand why others would NOT want me to be imprinted.

Ditto to SC, simulpost indeed (scum can talk during the day! OMGWTFBBW be wary! )

Limerickx, how happy are you about TheButtonmen being imprinted given his play since he got the imprint?

Not very happy at all, I've mentioned that.

Unless you belive farside/Elvis/SC to be the scum-team (which you ostensibly don't, otherwise your musings would be moot), townies have already joined the wagon.

And what does that mean? I have to agree with every other townie on every point? I am wary of adding imprints after the fact. Thats my take.

I severely doubt there's more than one scum in the group of TheButtonmen/Limerickx/farside. So I see your NK-based thoughts as moot.

I doubt it as well, but as you increase the pool, you increase the chance for error. I'm not comfortable with increasing the size of the imprint pool when it comes right after the two imprints which were previously agreed on, almost as a 'hey guys, lets imprint farside too!'

Your last paragraph I find to be flawed. If Button and you are town, the scum are in fairly deep trouble.

Really? You know what imprints we're going to get? Mafia don't know what the imprints are any more than you and me. Maybe I'll get tracker, Button one-shot NK. Are the mafia in fairly deep trouble then?
Its another case of risk/reward. If farside was scum, float the idea of a 3rd imprint. Nobody bites, that's fine, hope that townies don't get a good imprint. Hell, maybe Button IS scum. You try to sneak in a second scum imprint, which causes a whole NEW nest of problems.

As for Soc, I don't THINK SC and farside are trying to pull a fast one, but I acknowledge the possibility. I don't understand why everyone seems to think that decisions can't be based off a spectrum. I don't THINK SC and farside are trying to pull a fast one, but that doesn't mean I can't be uncomfortable with giving farside an imprint at this point. I don't KNOW that something fishy isn't going on.

This isn't anti-farside, its anti 'change at the last minute.'

[Limerickx]

Answering honestly, I'm not sure. I'd LIKE to say I wouldn't push for it, but in reality, in your shoes I probably would. Again, it is in your best interest to be imprinted.

That being said, I dont know that its in mine either, and the fact that the question comes up after the two imprints were cast makes me wary.

I don't understand where you're going with the question. I understand why you'd push to be imprinted. I don't have a problem with that.

[Limerickx]

I think you are more likely town than scum. That doesn't mean I want to take on the risk of being wrong by imprinting you. Its not a mentality that makes no sense. Its simple risk/reward mechanics.

I could name a bunch of other people who I think are more likely town than scum. That doesn't mean I have the level of confidence that I feel I need to imprint another person last minute, ESPECIALLY on a whim brought up by SC, someone I've been suspicious of for a while.

[Limerickx]

Ah, whatever, lets go for it then.

My main scum reads are on the sideline, I DO have a town read from Farside.
I'm not happy with how the vote went down at all, but at least its going down on someone who has a decent shot of being town.

Imprint: Farside

[Limerickx]

Yeah, I'm kind of anxious to get the day over with. I don't want to pressure anyone to hammer the no-lunch though, because I'm fully aware that a lot of my impatience is due to me wanting to see what I get imprinted with. That being said, I don't think there is much outstanding to talk about that can't wait until tomorrow.

As a note:
If I get a kill, I wont use it
If I get a cop, I'm targeting Reck
I won't block anyone if I get that.

I think those are the important ones to tell people about in advance I guess?

[Limerickx]

Farside, the chances of us both getting cop seem fairly slim. We don't know if ANYONE is getting cop. I'm not sure you shouldn't just investigate Reck in that case.

[Limerickx]

I also got imprinted with a Vig. I also didn't use it.

[Limerickx]

Yeah, I can.

Was was imprinted with the mind of ChiboSempai. He/She was a vig in the game that can be found HERE

I got the vig power. I didn't use it. It didn't say anything other than that.

BTW: I was going to mention this in my first post, but I wasn't sure how much I could say without it being 'quoting' (this is my first 'non-newb' game, and didn't want to accidentally get mod-killed) I was following that up, but after rereading the rules post, I suppose its fine as long as I put it in my own words.

[Limerickx]

Also:

Vote xRECKx

[Limerickx]

I don't know that we should assume that the mod will give imprints based on anything other than randomness. I havent heard of anything to suggest that.

[Limerickx]

How would you know it was a fake-claim though?

Again, I still see no reason to expect that the imprints would be dependent on what the mod decides at the time. I'd imagine he either has a list and gives them out as people get imprinted, or its random.

Imprint: Limerickx

This too.

[Limerickx]

Imprint Farside

Her whole "I wanna claim last to make sure people claim the correct flavor" thing was pro-town. Not sure I buy Button's whole "I got a vig" but forgetting to claim what game he was from till later.

What if Button or I had tracker? Wouldn't scum prefer to go last if possible? Keep in mind that Farside didn't

actually

have a role that resulted in a benefit by her going last.

Also, if button, farside, or myself were going to fake a thread to be from, we DID have all weekend to pick one.

[Limerickx]

Imprint Farside

Her whole "I wanna claim last to make sure people claim the correct flavor" thing was pro-town. Not sure I buy Button's whole "I got a vig" but forgetting to claim what game he was from till later.

What if Button or I had tracker? Wouldn't scum prefer to go last if possible? Keep in mind that Farside didn't

actually

have a role that resulted in a benefit by her going last.

Also, if button, farside, or myself were going to fake a thread to be from, we DID have all weekend to pick one.

[Limerickx]

I don't know that we should assume that the mod will give imprints based on anything other than randomness. I havent heard of anything to suggest that.

That's a good point, but on the other hand giving a player a doc role when there is no possibility of a NK seems unfair.

But imagine that only one person is imprinted one night (town.) He gets a doc. Wouldn't being able to assume that means that there is a pre-imprinted person with a NK ability be unfair to scumteam? I don't think we can assume anything about which imprints are given out.

Although, now that I think about it, 2 vigs and zero information roles is weird. And claiming to have gotten a vig would be a convenient claim for a scumbag since it contains no information whatsoever.

True, but there are other roles he could have claimed, especially given his comments about vigging the day before.

This goes along with my thinking that unless we have a good reason to think we know how imprints are given out, assuming anything is dangerous.

I don't know that that is necessarily the case. If a NK were to occur, I would take a closer look at anyone who as been imprinted regardless of claimed role.

In a bubble, I agree about this. There are cases where this is not true, (imagine if Farside got tracker, I got doctor. I save SC, and Farside tracks me. In that case, a night kill of someone shouldn't make me suspicious (unless both Farside AND I were mafia, of course) but last night was not one of those cases.

My vote still stays on xRECK, as I haent heard anything to diminish my thoughts on him.

Imprint Farside

Buttons play has made me feel wishywashy about him, so I'll hold my imprint vote from him for now, but Im open to thoughts.

[Limerickx]

That's why we should imprint the same people - then we can narrow it down to two people who had a NK ability. If there is a NK, then we lynch Buttonmen or Lim. As for your other question, gimme till tomorrow, I'm drunk.

If Knight flips town, please remind me about this post.

Has anyone else been saying something like this?

I've been the only one saying this. Why?

Sorry if I missed this, but if there is a NK, why is farsde excused?

[Limerickx]

That's why we should imprint the same people - then we can narrow it down to two people who had a NK ability. If there is a NK, then we lynch Buttonmen or Lim. As for your other question, gimme till tomorrow, I'm drunk.

Sorry if I missed this, but if there is a NK, why is farsde excused?

Not saying she's excused, just saying she's the only one who didn't claim to have a NK ability.

If you weren't saying she was excused, then why did you say that a NK would mean a Button/Lim lynch, and forget to include Farside?

Sorry xReck, but brushing aside the fact that Farside is just as possible as Button and myself is scummy. This is ESPECIALLY crazytimes because you were so against Farside getting the imprint in the first place!

[Limerickx]

Two points:

1) I did a reread on KoC, and I really don't see where all the scumminess is coming from. Could someone point me to a few things?

2) I think we SHOULD imprint, at least the same players as last night. If we assume that a scum player got a NK last night, if matters little if we imprint the same players again. The scum might get another ability, but since they can only use 1, reward outweighs risk in my mind. If we assume that the three players imprinted were town, then of COURSE you'd want to imprint again.

The only reason I can see to not imprint again is if you think there was a scum player imprinted, and said scum player didn't get a NK, and you think the risk of that happening is greater than the potential reward of any other info.

Imprint Buttonmen

[Limerickx]

Eventually KOC or Lim may want to actually........idk read the thread

Thats a little harsh, don't you think? I just read KoC in iso, and wanted to be pointed to some posts where his scumminess was outlined, I don't see the problem with that.

So just reading KOC in isolation he came in giving a big post on the game thus far and then nothing much else.
So I have some things that concerned me that KOC has ignored completely.

xRECKONERx wrote:
Farside, at first, didn't come off that scummy to me... but it seems the more she tries to defend herself, the more she digs her own grave. It's like I didn't see anything at first, but ek's attacks on her are actually showing her in a different light. It's nothing drastic, not yet at least, but she seems to be failing to defend herself properly.

= I don't agree with this. I think farside has defended herself adroitly. EK saying farside hasn't =/= farside not doing it. Elvis' whole "let's just agree you said what you said and I said what I said" shit feels like an attempt to excuse some misrep.

Before this post he imprints me but later states the following:

...I'm not going to get my SC lynch today am I? =/
-sigh- Very well. unvote; Vote No Lynch
imprint: Socrates I don't necessarily agree with his opinions on certain players, but he's coming across as a solid town read for me.
unimprint: farside22 Not as sure about you as VMD was.

How come no imprint votes from CTD/SC yet?

Both EK and myself have asked him why he posted the VMD was involved in the imprint when it was himself that did the imprint and it's an about face with no reasoning.

True, I remember this now, and agree with its scumminess.

Finally with SC asking people to imprint me this is what he has to say

You and farside have been, to some lesser or greater degree, at loggerheads for much of this game while not necessarily calling each other outright scum. Suddenly she is a perfect third imprint, when I could have sworn we wanted two, and you're trying to hold off the nolynch until you get what you want. I don't buy it. Two imprints is enough for tonight.

Mind you most of his big post was calling EK scum with SC town so this post makes no sense at all.

I'll have to disagree with this. I too was confused about the fact that you and SC seemed to be against each other, with a sudden about-face on SCs part. If I'm mistaken on that fact, feel free to correct me.

KOC has been nonexistant to wishy washy with no reasoning so far. He has gone back a bit on what he said with his first post to this post and doesn't expand on anything or any reason so far.

IE: Koc looks scummy mostly for backtracking, non contribution and lurking.

I can get on board with that.

[Limerickx]

Actually, I think I'd like to hear an up-to-date LoS from everyone.

I'm still waiting for this. Suspicions seem to have shifted lately, and I want to get current thoughts on record.

Will compile later (J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS)
Also, I'll go back and read your first big analysis.

Several things about this:
1. We don't lose any "potential reward" at all by not imprinting. We can always imprint tomorrow.
2. We can make a more informed imprint choice tomorrow.
3. I don't think it's a good idea to blindly imprint people just because they got imprinted before.
4. I think there's a good chance that imprinting scum repeatedly is bad for us, irregardless of whether they have a kill or not.

Take all of the above, couple it with the fact that I'm not confident we imprinted 3 town players, and you have more than enough reason not to imprint today.

1. Take two scenarios: a) Scum imprinted b) No scum imprinted
a) If scum got a NK, suppose we mislynch, and scum uses his NK. We're 5-3, and MYLO (unless I'm mistaken). If we imprint tonight, we can get evidence which would help us in that case.
b) If no scum imprinted, then whats the harm?
Like I said, the only possible downside is if there was a scum imprinted, and said scum did not get a NK.

2) And it can be even better informed if the imprints are better this time (Again, see points a) and b))

3) Its not blind. You keep the pool of possible scum (should a NK go off) at the same level. If a scum was imprinted last night, he has the power, thats it. By not imprinting, you leave the scum with that power, and prevent any possible town players from getting more info. Again, the only possible problem is if there was a scum imprinted and he wasn't given a NK. Its a risk/reward preposition (yes Farside, any risk/reward talk is most likely started by me lol) that I think is acceptable.

4) What powers do you think would be most harmful to us for scum to have other than NK? Keeping in mind they can only use one power per night.

Put it this way. Pretend a scum WAS imprinted, and given a NK. Would it be in their best interest for the same three players to be imprinted, or not? I think scum would prefer for nobody to be imprinted.

[Limerickx]

Limerick or button, do you want to vig KoC tonight and we'll go after a different lynch? Seems like a waste to string him up.

First, that would be dependent on someone getting a vig ability again (or a scum using their saved NK, though if KoC is scum then they'd never do it, they'd just pretend to not get a vig ability)
Second, I'd want to keep clear of ever having a townie use a NK ability. This way, if a NK goes off, we can know its a scum-kill,almost like a 'scum-alert.' 'Hey' it says, 'at one point, a scum got imprinted.'
Suppose we said 'ok lets decide to use a vig kill at night.' A scum could kill the target (Suppose KoC is town) and then say 'well, I got a vig, but we decided to do it!' We'd be left in the dark as to if a scum was imprinted, but they'd still be able to use a NK. I'd rather keep town lynches during the day, and leave NKs only in the hands of scum, so we can keep a record.

[Limerickx]

Farside, what is your opinion on my thought that an imprinted scum would WANT us to not imprint tonight, therefore, we SHOULD imprint.

[Limerickx]

First of all, when peopel are saying 'lynch no imprint, lynch no imprint' I think its important, and easy to set a game plan before anything else. So yeah, I see a game strategy that I think should be followed, and I'll say it, and I dont think I have anything to apologize for regarding that.

limerick day 3 stated:

Note to Button, I agree that 2-3 imprints should run into the future, not just for one day. I think I prefer 2 to 3 at this point, but as long as the number is small, that is what is important.

however later:

Unvote Serial Clergyman

I'll leave my imprint votes on Buttonmen and Myself.

2 imprints please and thank you.

pushing more on him and buttonman

Agreed with less imprints. While I'd prefer to receive an imprint over Pug for obvious reasons, I agree that two is enough

No reason why he changed from 2-3 to 2 now.

xRECK asked in THIS POST for people to say how many they wanted imprinted. I decided that I'd prefer two. funny enough, the very POST BEFORE MINE SC agreed to this (And later, of course, pushed for your imprint!). Also funny enough, IN THIS POST you lay out why you think 2 imprints is superior to three! And HERE TOO! E_K Does the sameHERE Funny enough, it was PUG who would've been the second in line for an imprint! So I get the second imprint, and out of nowhere, the push you to get you imprinted comes through?

Off the top of my head (posting from my phone at the moment) I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK. Id rather that neither get an imprint, if i had my choice.

His read before on me was thus:

Farside: I admit I couldn't read his uber-long post. My eyes started hurting. At this point, I think another reread will be required tomorrow. Lets leave it at null for now.
In fact, I'll wrap up my thoughts on the rest and expand on it tomrorow

later that same day said:

Farside: Fairly townish. Not comfortable enough to imprint

Yes...I was fairly townish on you at that moment in time. Point being?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

Things that mak me go hmmmm

And you disagree? He had the first imprint and was quiet from then. Obviously people should be at least interested in what he thought about other players!

More coming in a later post, this is getting cluttered.

[Limerickx]

I'd rather not imprint Farside, for 2 main reasons.

a) Keeps the imprint pool smaller
b) Goes along with my post HERE where I said that I was uncomfortable with doing more/less imprinting or lynching that what we had generally decided before everyone starting voting for imprints in earnest.

a) Only wanted 2 imprints
b) Saying I think someone is more likely town than scum =/= I know they are town and can imprint them with no reservations.

This makes no sense for reason's not to imprint another player

No. You are wrong. There is a risk the more players are imprinte at first. I weighed the risk of an imprinted an extra player increasing the risk of both accidentally imprinting scum AND making it harder to find the scum out of the past imprinted players as being GREATER than the reward of possible getting another townie imprinted. YOU AGREED at first.

I don't see how this makes any sense. I have good vibes from Farside, but I don't want to imprint farside for a few reasons.

In regards to this quote:

I personally would like to do a second imprint, if only because I would feel a lot more at ease about not possibly being manipulated in some way. I also think that the extra risk of a second imprint is worth the reward, as many roles relate to other PRs (tracker being the most relevant.)

Why do you feel you it would lead to manipulation if adding a 3rd person to imprints?

As I've said before, after people had pretty much settled on imprinting 2 people, sudden changes in plan without good reason are fishy.

Curious question @ limerick. You had a big long case on SC but voted for Reck. Why the vote on reck over SC?

Because maybe I listened to other people who criticized my position against SC? Maybe SC is annoying, and makes no sense, but there are other reasons people can be like that other than being scum? But who knows, maybe THAT was wrong too!

I see more talks about imprinting from limerick then scum talks. I feel as a town person you should be more focused on who is scum over who to imprint. The interaction of limerick's comment to buttonman and buttonman hammer imprinting limerick with no reason makes me feel a connection could be made between the two of them.
Also some of limericks points on players and his read on them is a lot of back and forth with no reasoning (except SC/EK) can be found. He think's reck is scum but I'm not sure why? He asked about KOC but says he didn't see anything in his read.
These desires by certain players to focus on imprinting over scum hunting just rubs me the wrong way.

1) I spoke about xRECK yesterday, specifically about nonchalantly trying to push Pug through an imprint felt fishy to me.
2) Have I ever been strongly against EK? Maybe I have, I know that I've been uncomfortable about her before, but I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent. Off the top of my head, I don't think I've even voted for her.

I ask people to make it easy to see why they are so against KoC because I didn't see something when I did a read through, and Im suspicious?

vote: Farside

Trying to push bad play, misrepresentation, flipflopping, criticizing players for holding positions you once had before dropping it would most suit you if you were scum.
I should thank you, if you didn't push me to go back and show you where I locked in on two imprints, then I might've missed You/SC being so solid on as well it until you saw an opportunity to be imprinted. Along with the fact that you pushed to reveal your imprint last when there was NO reason for it (as you were suppsoedly imprinted doctor) is just a little icing on top.

[Limerickx]

Final note: Farside was NOT on the DN lynch, and was on Starbuck lynch

[Limerickx]

OMGUS vote is noted by limerick who completely missed the buttonman interaction and pushes a weak case as I pointed to his scummiess and opinion as asked.
Your reasoning for not wanting to imprint more and following others instead of holding onto your own views is noted as well.
Goes from town to scum based on one post from me talking about his scummiess.
Welcome anyone elses view on limerick and his post and OMGUS vote based on my comments of him.

So you ignore the points actually against you and claim I ignore the Button interaction?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

Things that mak me go hmmmm

And you disagree? He had the first imprint and was quiet from then. Obviously people should be at least interested in what he thought about other players!

You want me to comment about Button hammering my imprint? What am I supposed to say about that? I'm not button, I can't speak for him, can I? Horri-bad Farside.

Weak case? You dismiss the following using two words, "weak case?"

1. Pushing poor town actions (Again, if there was an imprinted scum from last night, he would WANT the town to not imprint again)
2. Accuse me of 'switching' from wanting 2-3 imprints to only wanting 2, when I clearly said that I'd be fine with 2 or 3, then upon everyone deciding 2 was the way to go, wanting to stick with it.
3. Along with the above, you said on multiple occasions that you would prefer two imprints to three, and gave arguements for this view. Then, as soon as I got the second imprint, a movement from out of nowhere springs up to get you imprinted, the first three imprint votes ALL coming from people who originally said they wanted only two imprints.
4. You accuse me of being scummy for voting to imprint myself and button, when its already clear that there is zero reason to not vote yourself for an imprint, and make it seem as if voting to imprint Button is the peak of scumminess, even though you imprinted him as well, as did many other players.
5. You make it seem like I waivered all over the place on my early read on you, when the quotes you post clearly follow a line of "I was suspicious, now leaning town, let me reread to be sure, yeah, fairly townish"
6. Doesn't vote DN, votes Starbuck

Dismiss it all as OMGUS? I brought up reasons why I think you're scummy now, and yes, its true I only saw them when I went back to look at what you were talking about by pretending I was switching all over the place from 3 to 2 votes, which again, is untrue.

[Limerickx]

Sorry forgot:

7) Asking to go last in the imprint reveal dispite not having any role which would benefit by going last.

[Limerickx]

As I've said before, after people had pretty much settled on imprinting 2 people, sudden changes in plan without good reason are fishy.

So if a few people who didn't imprint any of the 2 players that were imprinted and felt one was town they should not want to imprint someone they find town?

If those people previously extolled the virtue of a 2 imprint day? When one (SC) has his vote on someone who, at the time of saying he wanted two imprints was voting to imprint someone (Pug) 2 votes away from being imprinted? As soon as the 2nd imprint went to me instead, he changes his mind and needs a third imprint? One of them (E_K) Didn't feel the need to vote to imprint ANYONE until deciding there needed to be a third imprint?

Because maybe I listened to other people who criticized my position against SC? Maybe SC is annoying, and makes no sense, but there are other reasons people can be like that other than being scum? But who knows, maybe THAT was wrong too

IE: I backtracked because I have no spine and couldn't push a case further on SC.
I think if you feel someone is scum stick with it and try to convince others of the scumminess

Blindly? People don't change their minds? You voted to imprint both Button and myself, now think we're both possibly scum, and you want to criticize me for being open to changing my mind?

Scum don't have to change their minds, they know who is town. Townies have to be willing to admit they can make mistakes. I was willing to see that my case on SC maybe wasn't as strong as I thought. Doesn't mean that I think hes town, just means that I'm willing to reconsider my own arguements.

1) I spoke about xRECK yesterday, specifically about nonchalantly trying to push Pug through an imprint felt fishy to me.
2) Have I ever been strongly against EK? Maybe I have, I know that I've been uncomfortable about her before, but I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent. Off the top of my head, I don't think I've even voted for her.

I ask people to make it easy to see why they are so against KoC because I didn't see something when I did a read through, and Im suspicious?

1) quote please

LINKY

2)

E_K: I actually think E_K is less scummy than most other people. Still undecided.

Elvis I pretty much don't trust myself to be sure on way or another.

I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK.

On that note: I've changed my mind on Elvis plenty during the game. Early on I thought she was town, and then scum, and now I have no idea. Her/SCs crazy buddying is just mystifying to me, and I think I just find myself not going along with a bunch of her reads, so I am inclined to consider her a little shady.

Bad'ish' Guys':
Elvis_Knits
xRECKONERx

Yes. I believe that this shows that I've never been

strongly

against E_K.

Your suspicious because most find KOC scum and you saying you don't see a case after a read seems scummy.

I wanted to see what other people were looking at, so I asked to be informed. wow.

pushing bad play

(um yeah what's wrong with pointing out people who play badly)

I was mainly refering to you acting like people who want to talk about what is the best course of action vis a vis today are scummy.

Misrepresentation

(in regards to EK only but so far that's it and I just quote were he called EK scum and had her at the bottom of his scum list)

And saying I ignored the buttonman interaction, when I didnt.
And indicating I flipflopped regarding how many imprints I wanted
And indicating I changed my opinion on you as well

flipflopping (on what exactly?)

Mainly on posting on more than one occasion that 2 imprints were best, then acting like people who didnt agree when the third imprint on yourself was being pushed were doing something wrong. Note that I already said I didnt think you were wrong to WANT to have the third imprint, but this is still a flipflop.

criticizing players for holding positions you once had before

(again see the point about voting for a town player and feeling someone is scum that was imprinted)

See my response.

[Limerickx]

1) Umm if scum was imprinted last night wouldn't they love another imprint tonight?

They can only use one power. What power, in your opinion would be best for them? I already said there is a possibility that there a) was a scum imprinted, who b) didnt get a NK, but that it was a risk I though was MORE than acceptable.

2) Again going with the crowd isn't pro-town

No, but you first accused me of changing my mind, which is false. It also wasn't about 'going with the town' it was about setting a plan, and being uncomfortable with people wanting to switch to something else at the last minute.

3) Yes and changing your mind based on those imprinted and knowing yourself to be town would not change anyone's mind including your own

Changing your mind based on those imprinted when you voted to imprint both of them? You dont think a sudden mass movement for a third imprint is even a LITTLE shady? Especially when scum can talk during the day?

3) 2 of these people didn't even vote on you or buttonman. If EK/SC is scum then this makes sense to link but since I know I'm not scum this link is pointless

Yes, they didnt vote for myself of button. I don't know if EK or SC is scum. I dont know if you are scum or not. Its the ACTIONS that are scummy. Maybe this link is pointless to you if you know you're not scum, but seeing as nobdoy else knows your alignment (except scum) its imporant for people who are trying to determine if you are scum.

4) I accuse you of being scummy for wanting to impring over scum hunt please get the fact straight.

Why can't we do both? Why is it scummy to decide what the plan is first? You'll note I wasn't/aren't against lynching as well as imprinting, I voted to lynch xRECKx right off the bat, and now am voting for you.

5) Someone talks about viging and gets a vig and you don't wonder to yourself if he's scum? Seriously?

And if Button got a vig and DID vig, and SC turned out town, you'd be ok? I doubt it. So button is a) not allowed to change his mind and let people talk some sense into him, and b) upon getting a vig, better shoot a townie, or else no matter what else he may do, he is scum. This isnt a defense for Button being a town or scum, its a defense against someone being made to look scummy for the WRONG REASONS.

6) Yes and I explained that earlier

Doesn't change the fact.

7) explained that as well.

Doesn't change the fact.

Finally when will you talk about buttonman and anything related to why he is town or scum and what he has done for the game?

I didn't get a scum read off him. I dont know what else you want from me. I even said AFTER he was imprinted that I wasn't happy with his level of contribution after his imprint.

[Limerickx]

So you ignore the points actually against you and claim I ignore the Button interaction?

Now that I answered everything. Care to imput why you felt the need to talk to buttonman about his view and don't question him more on his imprint hammer with no reason? Do you find buttonman scum hunting or more focused on imprinting in this game? What beside the gamebreak idea has buttonman done for this game?

Sorry to keep posting, there are a lot of posts to answer :-p

Button was the first imprinted by a long-shot. That being said, at that point in time, he hadn't said enough about other players. One would THINK, that if enough people thought he was town to imprint him, they'd be more interested in his thoughts on scum, especially as he hadn't said that much/enough to that point.

Why did I have to question him on his imprint hammer of me? Obviously he thought/thinks I'm town.

Did anyone hound you for hammering HIM? Hound me for hammering YOU? (I think you hammered him, and I hammered you, correct me if Im wrong)

I think Limerick in general has an OMGUS-y style. I remember the same thing happening after I made a case against him. His post is here.

I don't know if I'm (SOC I SAY YOUR SIG AND I WONT SAY IT) a......player who does such things, but I think that in looking to bring up evidence to defend myself, I look to find contradictions in whatever my attacker said about me, so I find other stuff when I look.

It looks exactly like he's a townie who thinks he's being targetted by scum and goes off to find evidence for that conclusion. It doesn't look like a strategic, constructed case.

Ah, you said it.

BTW Farside, you imprinted Button AND Yourself AND myself, AND now think we're both scummy, but you want to harp on button and myself both imprinting each other?

[Limerickx]

Scum don't have to change their minds, they know who is town. Townies have to be willing to admit they can make mistakes. I was willing to see that my case on SC maybe wasn't as strong as I thought. Doesn't mean that I think hes town, just means that I'm willing to reconsider my own arguements.

This is so false I can't tell you the number of times scum backtrack their views on players they know to be town and make other cases that are far weaker

They don't HAVE to. That is what I said. And it is correct. Changing your mind isn't scummy.

I changed my mind based on your actions and views on my comments and thebuttonman I explained to death why I think he is scum. You backed off because people "critized your position". That isn't saying I went back and read on things and found a cases on others I felt to be scum.

False. The reasons my case against SC was weak were pointed out, and I saw that possibility in those points. I considered that my frustration in some of the things SC did made me try to fit actions to suit my conclusion, instead of vice-versa.

Can I laugh at the fact that most of your case on reck was his action towards me?

Sure, doesn't change the fact that you insinuated that my reads were all back and forth with no reasoning, specifically mentioning xRECK.

Yes. I believe that this shows that I've never been strongly against E_K

You think calling someone scum is nothing?

Not nothing, I just said I was never hardcord 'E_K is scum.'

However you said this:

I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent

When I said this about you:

Also some of limericks points on players and his read on them is a lot of back and forth with no reasoning (except SC/EK) can be found.

So where you are using the word strongly is beyond me however your point about making a case on Reck is noted that I missed.
And you just completely misrepresented my point is noted as well. Pot/kettle nice to meet you.

After asking if I had every been 'strongly' against E_K, you listed 5 posts where I, in varying degrees, say I feel uncomfortable about E_K, where you said a lot of my reads are back and forth with no reasoning, and say SC and EK are examples where this is not the case. I was informing you that I never took a solid stance on EK one way or another. Please tell me how this is misrepresenting you.

I was mainly refering to you acting like people who want to talk about what is the best course of action vis a vis today are scummy.

What?

You've claimed that its scummy for me to want to talk about what the best course of action is today, regarding imprint/lynching, because it means Im not scumhunting. Not 'hey, focus on something else,' but actually implied that it was scummy!

And saying I ignored the buttonman interaction, when I didnt.
And indicating I flipflopped regarding how many imprints I wanted
And indicating I changed my opinion on you as well

What did you say to buttonman and how hard did you go after him?
You did say 2 to 3 and changed it in regards to talks from others but didn't want to budge then did budge it was a bit wishy washy

I answerd your question regarding button, which you claimed I didn't.
Also, I didn't go hard after buttonman at all, he hasnt been one of my top suspects (obviously, I voted to imprint him) so I don't know why Id have to go hard after him.
I said 2 or 3, and then after I decided 2 was the best, as did you, as did SC, as did EK (perhaps others, I didnt continue reading far enough past that point) I didn't want to change out of the blue without any reason. This wasn't wishywashy at all.I've been very clear ALL GAME about wanting to keep the imprint pool small.

You are voting me today after calling me town for days now right?

Yes, because people can change their mind, regardless of you acting like me relaxing my position on SC is scummy.

Mainly on posting on more than one occasion that 2 imprints were best, then acting like people who didnt agree when the third imprint on yourself was being pushed were doing something wrong. Note that I already said I didnt think you were wrong to WANT to have the third imprint, but this is still a flipflop.

This is just crap. You can't have both ways and say it's wrong. You can't say well I agreed with you but it's still a flipflop that's just crap.

Question 1: Is it a flipflop? The answer is yes.
Question 2: Did I (and do I) understand why a townie in your position would want to be imprinted? The answer is yes.
Question 3: Does this change the fact that after you were adament about wanting 2 imprints, you not only welcomed an imprint, but pushed hard for one, on an imprint wagon that came out of nowhere, in a game where there are three townies who can talk during the day? No. It doesn't change any of those things. You accuse me of flipflopping by wanting 3 imprints then 2 (which is untrue) when you not only did the same thing, but in an much more suspicious way!

I just looked back on day 3 and SC wasn't imprinting anyone as far as I saw that day till he imprinted me.

Funny, because I think I see over 14 day 3 votecounts with SCs vote rested on Pug.

SC: Did you say anything about wanting only 2 imprints during day 3? I'm reading through some things but everything is becoming a blur right now.

I linked to the post where he did this.

[Limerickx]

This is a very, very difficult style of play. It leads you to make cases on obviously otwn players like farside and not obvious-but-still-town players like me. You need to be fighting confirmation bias at every turn. If you can pull it off, it's a powerful playstyle.

It not intentional. my 'fighting spirit' rises or something, its not something I activly try to do, jsut something Ive noticed about myself recently. Again, I didnt go LOOKING to attack farside, I went to defend myself, and saw all those posts where she and others claimed they only wanted 2 imprints, only wanted 2, and that set me looking.

I don't see why saying 'I believe in two imprints no matter what' and never deviating from that is more likely to be town.

Its not that. Its the timing. Pug was 2nd in line to be imprinted when people started claiming that they wanted two and only two imprints. Fine. When, after the 2nd imprint goes off, a sudden change of heart makes Farside get imprinted that fast, it makes me uncomfortable, especially when the scum can talk during the day.

Roleblocking someone, person A can say they RB player B for some reason I'm sure and block them.
Why would you think they didn't get a NK? The risk isn't worth the reward if there was a scum imprinted.

Oh god PLEASE let there be a scum with a rolebblock who uses it. Why would a town use a roleblock, unless its on someone who was imprinted in the past, but not the present?
And I'm NOT sure that scum didnt get imprinted with a NK, but I think the risk is worth the reward, and simply talking about the option doesn't make me scummy for not scumhunting instead.

No reason why he changed from 2-3 to 2 now.

I read you in isolation that much should be obvious based on the fact you showed people who were talking about 2 imprints over 3.

I dont see how this changes anything. You brought that up as a main point against me. You were incorrect about this.

I imprinted both you and buttonman. I know myself to be town why would that be shady to me?

The ACTION being shady. Some people can recognize their actions as being scummy, regardless of their alignment. I guess you cant.

priorities have been skewed more toward imprinting for most of my read on you. Not just today but the whole game.

They are both important. I am better at the first, and its something which should be easy to come to some sort of an agreement on. I've made stronger arguements against SC, xRECK, and now you. Wanting to use logic to make our actions result in the biggest 'net gain' for the town isnt scummy.

Way to not answer my question. Reverse question and not answer is noted thanks
Are you not reading the thread? I asked this seriously now because I stated reasons why I could see why a NK was not performed already.

I would've thought it obvious that I think making a smart play is the best. If he got a vig and didnt use it, it was the best thing, regardless of what he said before. I said I didnt like him saying he'd use a vig if he got one. That was scummy. He said he got a vig, and didnt use it. Thats a good thing. As for the second part, are YOU reading the thread? I've talked about the same thing. In fact, I believe I've said it would be stupid for scum to use a NK if they got one already. I don't see how this is relevent to my point that I find your strongest arguement against Button (He said hed vig and then didnt) as lacking.

Other notes:
Not OMGUS. I was planning on showing you where I said I wanted 2 votes, and then saw yours as well. And SCs. And E_K. Then I dug deeper.

I don't know what you want regarding Button. I didn't think he was scummy, I got a good vibe from him, I voted to imprint him.

As far as this question:

Do you find buttonman scum hunting or more focused on imprinting in this game? What beside the gamebreak idea has buttonman done for this game?

I've said that I havent liked his play since being imprinted. I said that I didnt like him saying hed use a vig if he got one. I havent found his play to be the best scumhunting-est. He has been more focused on imprinting (though again, that is still important)

I don't know why you're acting like Ive been defending Button. When you've listed an arguement against him I dont agree with, I say it, but I'm hardly certain of 'townness at this point'

[Limerickx]

Hey all, just want to let you know I wont be able to check the thread until this weekend.

[Limerickx]

Sorry guys, its busy season (any other public accounts out there? :eyeroll)

Responding to a few things:
Yes, looks like Farside doesn't think much about my argument against her, whatever, not worth rehashing.

I'll go through the posts since my last and see what to respond to.

questions to buttonman:

If I was scum why would I not shot anyone if I was given the ability?

You think Button is scum, even though he didn't shoot anyone. Why would be be any different?

Limerickx, do you really think that your vote is doing ANY good where it is right now?

What 'good' would you like my vote to be doing? I'm not sold on Button=scum argument, so I don't know what you're looking for. I'm voting to lynch who I think is scum, and imprinting everyone who was imprinted last night. You might ask why I'm voting to imprint Farside as well, and its because I think that if I AM right about Farside, then she prob got a NK last night, and I'm not concerned about any extra talents she might be imprinted with tonight. I still see no reason to not imprint the same people tonight as last night.

Yikes, not that much to respond to. I do like SCs comment right before mine.