Mini #893 - Dollhouse Mafia (Game Over!)

[Socrates]

Checking in.

/sadface at KOC still being alive.

Serial's "spirited but weak" attempt at a trap is sending off alarm bells in my head again...

I haven't really evaluated the Farside/Limrickx back and forth (What with the apathy and all), but surface reaction is the same as the Farside/Buttonmen back and forth.

@Farside: Do you think it is possible that both Limerickx and Button are scum?

What I don't want us to do is to get into some sort of "One of the imprintee's MUST be scum!" mindset.

On a completely unrelated note: I keep forgetting Pug is in this game. Note to self: re-read Pug

C'mon guys. Lets do this tomorrow. KOC is dead scum walking.

@CTD: Scum list:

Scumbag:
KOC

Not as strong a read, but willing to entertain the possibility:
RECK
Buttonmen

Great big amorphous ooze of uncertainty:
Elvis
Limerickx
Pug

Town read:
SerialClergyman
Farside
CTD

[farside22]

OMGUS vote is noted by limerick who completely missed the buttonman interaction and pushes a weak case as I pointed to his scummiess and opinion as asked.
Your reasoning for not wanting to imprint more and following others instead of holding onto your own views is noted as well.
Goes from town to scum based on one post from me talking about his scummiess.
Welcome anyone elses view on limerick and his post and OMGUS vote based on my comments of him.

[TheButtonmen]

So Farside just going to dismiss everyone who questions you as OMGUS?

[farside22]

@Farside: Do you think it is possible that both Limerickx and Button are scum?

I'm starting to lean that way based on limerick reaction to my case on him which as I said he completely ignores the interaction I pointed out between him and buttonman.
This is the 3rd time buttonman has asked about the questions I asked and frankly I don't feel I should point to something a 3rd time.
IE: READ THE THREAD YOU SCUM! or DIE SCUM DIE
Seems appropriate at this point
Note KOC, limerick and buttonman all were part of the imprints on limerick and buttonman.
All these things leave me with concerns. Limerick asking for a KOC case but voting on reck for a case he doesn't even quote. Right now I would go back and look to see if he had some case but I keep getting interrupted inbetween.

What I don't want us to do is to get into some sort of "One of the imprintee's MUST be scum!" mindset.

This isn't my mind set it was first the "coincidence" of buttonman talking about vigging then getting a "vig" ability. His I would shoot but didn't shot because of a 3rd person that was imprinted but not saying who is scum. Says he would use a doc ability on SC as he would be framed but his last comment was vigging EK so why one over the other especially when he talks about misvigging.

[farside22]

So Farside just going to dismiss everyone who questions you as OMGUS?

Tell me what part of the case do you feel was valid that did not come across as OMGUS.

[Limerickx]

OMGUS vote is noted by limerick who completely missed the buttonman interaction and pushes a weak case as I pointed to his scummiess and opinion as asked.
Your reasoning for not wanting to imprint more and following others instead of holding onto your own views is noted as well.
Goes from town to scum based on one post from me talking about his scummiess.
Welcome anyone elses view on limerick and his post and OMGUS vote based on my comments of him.

So you ignore the points actually against you and claim I ignore the Button interaction?

Button, are you planning on casting any more imprint votes? Seeing as you've been imprinted, I think people would be especially interested as to who you choose to vote a second imprint on.

Things that mak me go hmmmm

And you disagree? He had the first imprint and was quiet from then. Obviously people should be at least interested in what he thought about other players!

You want me to comment about Button hammering my imprint? What am I supposed to say about that? I'm not button, I can't speak for him, can I? Horri-bad Farside.

Weak case? You dismiss the following using two words, "weak case?"

1. Pushing poor town actions (Again, if there was an imprinted scum from last night, he would WANT the town to not imprint again)
2. Accuse me of 'switching' from wanting 2-3 imprints to only wanting 2, when I clearly said that I'd be fine with 2 or 3, then upon everyone deciding 2 was the way to go, wanting to stick with it.
3. Along with the above, you said on multiple occasions that you would prefer two imprints to three, and gave arguements for this view. Then, as soon as I got the second imprint, a movement from out of nowhere springs up to get you imprinted, the first three imprint votes ALL coming from people who originally said they wanted only two imprints.
4. You accuse me of being scummy for voting to imprint myself and button, when its already clear that there is zero reason to not vote yourself for an imprint, and make it seem as if voting to imprint Button is the peak of scumminess, even though you imprinted him as well, as did many other players.
5. You make it seem like I waivered all over the place on my early read on you, when the quotes you post clearly follow a line of "I was suspicious, now leaning town, let me reread to be sure, yeah, fairly townish"
6. Doesn't vote DN, votes Starbuck

Dismiss it all as OMGUS? I brought up reasons why I think you're scummy now, and yes, its true I only saw them when I went back to look at what you were talking about by pretending I was switching all over the place from 3 to 2 votes, which again, is untrue.

[Limerickx]

Sorry forgot:

7) Asking to go last in the imprint reveal dispite not having any role which would benefit by going last.

[farside22]

to appease people unlike buttonman I will go after limerick's post and points

As I've said before, after people had pretty much settled on imprinting 2 people, sudden changes in plan without good reason are fishy.

So if a few people who didn't imprint any of the 2 players that were imprinted and felt one was town they should not want to imprint someone they find town?

Because maybe I listened to other people who criticized my position against SC? Maybe SC is annoying, and makes no sense, but there are other reasons people can be like that other than being scum? But who knows, maybe THAT was wrong too

IE: I backtracked because I have no spine and couldn't push a case further on SC.
I think if you feel someone is scum stick with it and try to convince others of the scumminess

1) I spoke about xRECK yesterday, specifically about nonchalantly trying to push Pug through an imprint felt fishy to me.
2) Have I ever been strongly against EK? Maybe I have, I know that I've been uncomfortable about her before, but I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent. Off the top of my head, I don't think I've even voted for her.

I ask people to make it easy to see why they are so against KoC because I didn't see something when I did a read through, and Im suspicious?

1) quote please
2)

E_K: I actually think E_K is less scummy than most other people. Still undecided.

Elvis I pretty much don't trust myself to be sure on way or another.

I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK.

On that note: I've changed my mind on Elvis plenty during the game. Early on I thought she was town, and then scum, and now I have no idea. Her/SCs crazy buddying is just mystifying to me, and I think I just find myself not going along with a bunch of her reads, so I am inclined to consider her a little shady.

Bad'ish' Guys':
Elvis_Knits
xRECKONERx

Your suspicious because most find KOC scum and you saying you don't see a case after a read seems scummy.

OMGUS vote based on

pushing bad play

(um yeah what's wrong with pointing out

people who play badly)
Misrepresentation

(in regards to EK only but so far that's it and I just quote were he called EK scum and had her at the bottom of his scum list)

flipflopping

(on what exactly?)

criticizing players for holding positions you once had before

(again see the point about voting for a town player and feeling someone is scum that was imprinted)

[farside22]

1. Pushing poor town actions (Again, if there was an imprinted scum from last night, he would WANT the town to not imprint again)
2. Accuse me of 'switching' from wanting 2-3 imprints to only wanting 2, when I clearly said that I'd be fine with 2 or 3, then upon everyone deciding 2 was the way to go, wanting to stick with it.
3. Along with the above, you said on multiple occasions that you would prefer two imprints to three, and gave arguements for this view. Then, as soon as I got the second imprint, a movement from out of nowhere springs up to get you imprinted, the first three imprint votes ALL coming from people who originally said they wanted only two imprints.
4. You accuse me of being scummy for voting to imprint myself and button, when its already clear that there is zero reason to not vote yourself for an imprint, and make it seem as if voting to imprint Button is the peak of scumminess, even though you imprinted him as well, as did many other players.
5. You make it seem like I waivered all over the place on my early read on you, when the quotes you post clearly follow a line of "I was suspicious, now leaning town, let me reread to be sure, yeah, fairly townish"
6. Doesn't vote DN, votes Starbuck
7) Asking to go last in the imprint reveal dispite not having any role which would benefit by going last.

1) Umm if scum was imprinted last night wouldn't they love another imprint tonight?
2) Again going with the crowd isn't pro-town
3) Yes and changing your mind based on those imprinted and knowing yourself to be town would not change anyone's mind including your own
3) 2 of these people didn't even vote on you or buttonman. If EK/SC is scum then this makes sense to link but since I know I'm not scum this link is pointless
4) I accuse you of being scummy for wanting to impring over scum hunt please get the fact straight
5) Someone talks about viging and gets a vig and you don't wonder to yourself if he's scum? Seriously?
6) Yes and I explained that earlier
7) explained that as well.


Finally when will you talk about buttonman and anything related to why he is town or scum and what he has done for the game?

[farside22]

So you ignore the points actually against you and claim I ignore the Button interaction?

Now that I answered everything. Care to imput why you felt the need to talk to buttonman about his view and don't question him more on his imprint hammer with no reason? Do you find buttonman scum hunting or more focused on imprinting in this game? What beside the gamebreak idea has buttonman done for this game?

[SerialClergyman]

I think Limerick in general has an OMGUS-y style. I remember the same thing happening after I made a case against him. His post is here.

You'll notice that 2, 3, 4, and 5 all are directly related to farside's case on you.

The rest of the case (being wary about imprinting again, the votes she's laid and asking to claim last) is fair, just relatively minor in my eyes.

I actually don't mind his efforts, nor do I mind the OMGUS. I think the whole episode has made me feel better about Limerick actually.

unvote, vote buttonman

[farside22]

I think Limerick in general has an OMGUS-y style. I remember the same thing happening after I made a case against him. His post is here.

You'll notice that 2, 3, 4, and 5 all are directly related to farside's case on you.

The rest of the case (being wary about imprinting again, the votes she's laid and asking to claim last) is fair, just relatively minor in my eyes.

I actually don't mind his efforts, nor do I mind the OMGUS. I think the whole episode has made me feel better about Limerick actually.

unvote, vote buttonman

Wait he OMGUS you and he does it to me but you think it's town motivated??? Why?

[SerialClergyman]

I've never thought OMGUS was a scumtell. Town do it just as much as scum do.

What I liked about Limerick was that it looked like he was genuine in his searching and case making. His points that weren't OMGUS are true, and well-researched. It looks exactly like he's a townie who thinks he's being targetted by scum and goes off to find evidence for that conclusion. It doesn't look like a strategic, constructed case.

[farside22]

I've never thought OMGUS was a scumtell. Town do it just as much as scum do.

What I liked about Limerick was that it looked like he was genuine in his searching and case making. His points that weren't OMGUS are true, and well-researched. It looks exactly like he's a townie who thinks he's being targetted by scum and goes off to find evidence for that conclusion. It doesn't look like a strategic, constructed case.

If town do it just as much as scum then isn't it a null tell.
What about my thought on the limerick/buttonman interaction and imprints with each other?

[Limerickx]

As I've said before, after people had pretty much settled on imprinting 2 people, sudden changes in plan without good reason are fishy.

So if a few people who didn't imprint any of the 2 players that were imprinted and felt one was town they should not want to imprint someone they find town?

If those people previously extolled the virtue of a 2 imprint day? When one (SC) has his vote on someone who, at the time of saying he wanted two imprints was voting to imprint someone (Pug) 2 votes away from being imprinted? As soon as the 2nd imprint went to me instead, he changes his mind and needs a third imprint? One of them (E_K) Didn't feel the need to vote to imprint ANYONE until deciding there needed to be a third imprint?

Because maybe I listened to other people who criticized my position against SC? Maybe SC is annoying, and makes no sense, but there are other reasons people can be like that other than being scum? But who knows, maybe THAT was wrong too

IE: I backtracked because I have no spine and couldn't push a case further on SC.
I think if you feel someone is scum stick with it and try to convince others of the scumminess

Blindly? People don't change their minds? You voted to imprint both Button and myself, now think we're both possibly scum, and you want to criticize me for being open to changing my mind?

Scum don't have to change their minds, they know who is town. Townies have to be willing to admit they can make mistakes. I was willing to see that my case on SC maybe wasn't as strong as I thought. Doesn't mean that I think hes town, just means that I'm willing to reconsider my own arguements.

1) I spoke about xRECK yesterday, specifically about nonchalantly trying to push Pug through an imprint felt fishy to me.
2) Have I ever been strongly against EK? Maybe I have, I know that I've been uncomfortable about her before, but I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent. Off the top of my head, I don't think I've even voted for her.

I ask people to make it easy to see why they are so against KoC because I didn't see something when I did a read through, and Im suspicious?

1) quote please

LINKY

2)

E_K: I actually think E_K is less scummy than most other people. Still undecided.

Elvis I pretty much don't trust myself to be sure on way or another.

I was less suspicious of EK on day one then I am now, and more suspicious of Farside early than now. Im leaning town to Farside and neutral on EK.

On that note: I've changed my mind on Elvis plenty during the game. Early on I thought she was town, and then scum, and now I have no idea. Her/SCs crazy buddying is just mystifying to me, and I think I just find myself not going along with a bunch of her reads, so I am inclined to consider her a little shady.

Bad'ish' Guys':
Elvis_Knits
xRECKONERx

Yes. I believe that this shows that I've never been

strongly

against E_K.

Your suspicious because most find KOC scum and you saying you don't see a case after a read seems scummy.

I wanted to see what other people were looking at, so I asked to be informed. wow.

pushing bad play

(um yeah what's wrong with pointing out people who play badly)

I was mainly refering to you acting like people who want to talk about what is the best course of action vis a vis today are scummy.

Misrepresentation

(in regards to EK only but so far that's it and I just quote were he called EK scum and had her at the bottom of his scum list)

And saying I ignored the buttonman interaction, when I didnt.
And indicating I flipflopped regarding how many imprints I wanted
And indicating I changed my opinion on you as well

flipflopping (on what exactly?)

Mainly on posting on more than one occasion that 2 imprints were best, then acting like people who didnt agree when the third imprint on yourself was being pushed were doing something wrong. Note that I already said I didnt think you were wrong to WANT to have the third imprint, but this is still a flipflop.

criticizing players for holding positions you once had before

(again see the point about voting for a town player and feeling someone is scum that was imprinted)

See my response.

[Socrates]

HEY GUIZ! I am starting a new boycott of pointless buzzwords and vow from this point forward to never use these words again. You should join me! If you guys can think of any words to add to the list, let me know!

Next time you find yourself wanting to use one of these words, try formulating the argument without using the word. If you can't, you are probably misusing the word anyway.

See my new sig.

Calling a counter-attack OMGUS without addressing the actual reasoning that a person has used is turbo lame (Farside did eventually address the case itself though, so I have no problem with her, in this case.)

It is, along with most of these buzzwords, a way to call someone scummy without actually examining their thought process or argumentation, (read: convenient rhetorical devices for scum bags) and I have never seen it actually catch a mafioso, but have seen it catch plenty of townies.

[Socrates]

Hey SC, Why does you feeling better about Lim make you move off of KOC?

[Limerickx]

1) Umm if scum was imprinted last night wouldn't they love another imprint tonight?

They can only use one power. What power, in your opinion would be best for them? I already said there is a possibility that there a) was a scum imprinted, who b) didnt get a NK, but that it was a risk I though was MORE than acceptable.

2) Again going with the crowd isn't pro-town

No, but you first accused me of changing my mind, which is false. It also wasn't about 'going with the town' it was about setting a plan, and being uncomfortable with people wanting to switch to something else at the last minute.

3) Yes and changing your mind based on those imprinted and knowing yourself to be town would not change anyone's mind including your own

Changing your mind based on those imprinted when you voted to imprint both of them? You dont think a sudden mass movement for a third imprint is even a LITTLE shady? Especially when scum can talk during the day?

3) 2 of these people didn't even vote on you or buttonman. If EK/SC is scum then this makes sense to link but since I know I'm not scum this link is pointless

Yes, they didnt vote for myself of button. I don't know if EK or SC is scum. I dont know if you are scum or not. Its the ACTIONS that are scummy. Maybe this link is pointless to you if you know you're not scum, but seeing as nobdoy else knows your alignment (except scum) its imporant for people who are trying to determine if you are scum.

4) I accuse you of being scummy for wanting to impring over scum hunt please get the fact straight.

Why can't we do both? Why is it scummy to decide what the plan is first? You'll note I wasn't/aren't against lynching as well as imprinting, I voted to lynch xRECKx right off the bat, and now am voting for you.

5) Someone talks about viging and gets a vig and you don't wonder to yourself if he's scum? Seriously?

And if Button got a vig and DID vig, and SC turned out town, you'd be ok? I doubt it. So button is a) not allowed to change his mind and let people talk some sense into him, and b) upon getting a vig, better shoot a townie, or else no matter what else he may do, he is scum. This isnt a defense for Button being a town or scum, its a defense against someone being made to look scummy for the WRONG REASONS.

6) Yes and I explained that earlier

Doesn't change the fact.

7) explained that as well.

Doesn't change the fact.

Finally when will you talk about buttonman and anything related to why he is town or scum and what he has done for the game?

I didn't get a scum read off him. I dont know what else you want from me. I even said AFTER he was imprinted that I wasn't happy with his level of contribution after his imprint.

[Limerickx]

So you ignore the points actually against you and claim I ignore the Button interaction?

Now that I answered everything. Care to imput why you felt the need to talk to buttonman about his view and don't question him more on his imprint hammer with no reason? Do you find buttonman scum hunting or more focused on imprinting in this game? What beside the gamebreak idea has buttonman done for this game?

Sorry to keep posting, there are a lot of posts to answer :-p

Button was the first imprinted by a long-shot. That being said, at that point in time, he hadn't said enough about other players. One would THINK, that if enough people thought he was town to imprint him, they'd be more interested in his thoughts on scum, especially as he hadn't said that much/enough to that point.

Why did I have to question him on his imprint hammer of me? Obviously he thought/thinks I'm town.

Did anyone hound you for hammering HIM? Hound me for hammering YOU? (I think you hammered him, and I hammered you, correct me if Im wrong)

I think Limerick in general has an OMGUS-y style. I remember the same thing happening after I made a case against him. His post is here.

I don't know if I'm (SOC I SAY YOUR SIG AND I WONT SAY IT) a......player who does such things, but I think that in looking to bring up evidence to defend myself, I look to find contradictions in whatever my attacker said about me, so I find other stuff when I look.

It looks exactly like he's a townie who thinks he's being targetted by scum and goes off to find evidence for that conclusion. It doesn't look like a strategic, constructed case.

Ah, you said it.

BTW Farside, you imprinted Button AND Yourself AND myself, AND now think we're both scummy, but you want to harp on button and myself both imprinting each other?

[SerialClergyman]

Socrates, before I even read anything, I like the idea of your list of words. I think WIFOM and OMGUS need a total theory workout (WIFOM =/= argument over, OMGUS =/= argument over or scumtell).

But by FAR the most meaningless word on site is 'misrep'. I have almost never seen scum purposefully take a statement and change it's meaning in order to make someone look worse. 99.999% of 'misreps' are simply natural 'Chinese whispers-esque' variations in understanding of meaning and context.

As for KoC - I just have a gut feeling on buttonman that I want him lynched now more than ever. I don't have that about KoC, and I'm unwilling to keep voting an empty slot. I think I switched because I want my vote to reflect my desire at the moment, which is a button lynch.

[Socrates]

Socrates, before I even read anything, I like the idea of your list of words. I think WIFOM and OMGUS need a total theory workout (WIFOM =/= argument over, OMGUS =/= argument over or scumtell).

But by FAR the most meaningless word on site is 'misrep'. I have almost never seen scum purposefully take a statement and change it's meaning in order to make someone look worse. 99.999% of 'misreps' are simply natural 'Chinese whispers-esque' variations in understanding of meaning and context.

As for KoC - I just have a gut feeling on buttonman that I want him lynched now more than ever. I don't have that about KoC, and I'm unwilling to keep voting an empty slot. I think I switched because I want my vote to reflect my desire at the moment, which is a button lynch.

*slaps own forehead* Of course, misrep! Leave it to Socrates to forget the one of the worst ones of them all.

[SerialClergyman]

If town do it just as much as scum then isn't it a null tell.
What about my thought on the limerick/buttonman interaction and imprints with each other?

Two points. OMGUS is not a scumtell answers your 'you see him omgus' part, and the stuff below about him being a frustrated townie feeling aggreived at being targeted answers the 'and you think he's town???' part.

[farside22]

Scum don't have to change their minds, they know who is town. Townies have to be willing to admit they can make mistakes. I was willing to see that my case on SC maybe wasn't as strong as I thought. Doesn't mean that I think hes town, just means that I'm willing to reconsider my own arguements.

This is so false I can't tell you the number of times scum backtrack their views on players they know to be town and make other cases that are far weaker

Blindly? People don't change their minds? You voted to imprint both Button and myself, now think we're both possibly scum, and you want to criticize me for being open to changing my mind?

I changed my mind based on your actions and views on my comments and thebuttonman I explained to death why I think he is scum. You backed off because people "critized your position". That isn't saying I went back and read on things and found a cases on others I felt to be scum.

Can I laugh at the fact that most of your case on reck was his action towards me?

.

Yes. I believe that this shows that I've never been strongly against E_K

You think calling someone scum is nothing?
However you said this:

I dont recall ever making a strong case, as you misrepresent

When I said this about you:

Also some of limericks points on players and his read on them is a lot of back and forth with no reasoning (except SC/EK) can be found.

So where you are using the word strongly is beyond me however your point about making a case on Reck is noted that I missed.
And you just completely misrepresented my point is noted as well. Pot/kettle nice to meet you.

I was mainly refering to you acting like people who want to talk about what is the best course of action vis a vis today are scummy.

What?

And saying I ignored the buttonman interaction, when I didnt.
And indicating I flipflopped regarding how many imprints I wanted
And indicating I changed my opinion on you as well

What did you say to buttonman and how hard did you go after him?
You did say 2 to 3 and changed it in regards to talks from others but didn't want to budge then did budge it was a bit wishy washy
You are voting me today after calling me town for days now right?

Mainly on posting on more than one occasion that 2 imprints were best, then acting like people who didnt agree when the third imprint on yourself was being pushed were doing something wrong. Note that I already said I didnt think you were wrong to WANT to have the third imprint, but this is still a flipflop.

This is just crap. You can't have both ways and say it's wrong. You can't say well I agreed with you but it's still a flipflop that's just crap.

When one (SC) has his vote on someone who, at the time of saying he wanted two imprints was voting to imprint someone (Pug) 2 votes away from being imprinted?

I just looked back on day 3 and SC wasn't imprinting anyone as far as I saw that day till he imprinted me.


SC: Did you say anything about wanting only 2 imprints during day 3? I'm reading through some things but everything is becoming a blur right now.

[SerialClergyman]

but I think that in looking to bring up evidence to defend myself, I look to find contradictions in whatever my attacker said about me, so I find other stuff when I look.

This is a very, very difficult style of play. It leads you to make cases on obviously otwn players like farside and not obvious-but-still-town players like me. You need to be fighting confirmation bias at every turn. If you can pull it off, it's a powerful playstyle.

[SerialClergyman]

farside, I don't think you're on the right track and I'm not sure what the answers to your question would prove one way or another.

I was imprinting pug for a while, I have been in favour of a few different styles of imprint. I never specifically said two only (I think), but I often said to keep the imprint pool small. It's a reasonable charge to say that I changed my mind, just the conclusion that I'm scummy because of it is lacking.

I don't see why saying 'I believe in two imprints no matter what' and never deviating from that is more likely to be town.