Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[Einlanzers]

/confirm

[Einlanzers]

Vote: No Lynch

[Einlanzers]

Vote: No Lynch

Vote: Einlanzers

, what do you think to accomplish with a no lynch? If I see the numbers, we get one lynch less if we no lynch. I'd like to hear your reasoning. If this was created to no lynch D1, don't you think it would be a nightstart?

Well seeing as noone posted, I had no idea what anyone's personality was, so I couldn't even try to guess who was scum and who wasn't. I'd much rather save a townie than lynch one. Randomly voting wont really get you anywhere. Since you're so "experienced" I think that you are voting for me to aid the mafia, so:

Unvote
Vote: jammer

[Einlanzers]

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not. And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

I agree as previous mentioned that the people that are overly talkative are the people trying to "control" the game and therefore are the ones most likely to be scum. I maintain my vote and hope I am right in the end.

[Einlanzers]

I don't know what else you want me to say.

1) I didn't want to vote for anybody at the beginning because I didn't want to lynch of potential ally. The way I see it is this. Possible scenarios:

Starting Off: 7 Town, 2 Mafia
a) No Lynch
7 Town, 2 Mafia (100%)
So I have 6 allies to investigate and vote for 2 Mafia.

b) Random vote
6 Town, 2 Mafia (75%)
So I have only 5 allies.
OR
7 Town, 2 Mafia (25%)
Still have 6 allies, but only a 2/8 chance of being right.

I like to play the odds, and seeing that the best odds (especially with 0 information at my disposal) it seemed like me voting a No Lynch would prove to help me the best overall.

2) I voted for jammer because he seemed to be overly talkative and seems to be hiding something by trying to focus the attention on everyone else. I admit it's also somewhat of a personal attack aswell as it seemed irrational/mean to vote for me because I was trying to be altruistic.

[Einlanzers]

UnVote
Vote: jonnydelawelsh

After re-reading this entire thread it looks like he either:

A) Is scum and is affiliating with scum to bring down a towny
or
B) Is just hopping on the bandwagon voting for someone who hasn't really posted anything yet.

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

And to reply to the NL comments:
It makes sense that not voting takes away from the town the ability to cast out scum, but random voting gets you nowhere aswell. I DO agree that now what I should have done is just wait until people starting talking then vote for the suspicious ones. Give me a break. This is my first game .

[Einlanzers]

Alright guys. I flat up give up. And seeing as I don't even get a "Bah" post after I'm lynched. I just wanted to make a post saying goodluck jammer and jonny I hope you guys win it for the scum because this town is lynch crazy towards one of their own and I guess they really don't want to survive this game.

[Einlanzers]

I apologize for being "pouty" and wanting to give up, but it felt like the world was against me. Anyways I've decided to re-read this entire thread and answer some questions and give some insight to some things. Also I want to thank VP Baltar and Chiarosicada for actually trying to persue questions before just lynch mobbing me.

You're not lynched Einlanzers. I'm actually arguing against it, but you're not helping by being pouty and saying you want to quit. I know it's not fun when everyone's on your case, but that's part of the game. All you can do is answer questions and state who you find suspicious and why.

Sometimes you get lynched for bad reasons or because you say something that came out wrong. It just happened to me in a game I was in with Porkens. You just can't take it personally and have to keep playing the game as best as you can.

Do you find anyone apart from jammer and johnny scummy? If so, why?

I guess looking back I was a little quick-on-the-draw to pinpoint jammer and johnny. Just because jammer was talking a lot doesn't necessarily make him scum. Also johnny posted a vote pretty early on and just because it "looked" like a mafia defense it may not have been.
OK after getting that off my chest I think Claramata seems a little scummy for her post #54: Swinging her vote just because someone asked her to. She hasn't posted anything but negative things regarding me (I'm not saying I take this personally, but it looks like she's focused on setting up a bandwagon).
I can't really seem to find anyone that smells of scum so far. I'll let you guys know if I see something else "out of whack".

It's a factor for sure, as it always is when I play with new people, but Lupo seems more calculated in his actions and what he says (or doesn't say) in his posts. Ein is more like a VI than anything.

Wow I can't believe I missed that the first time around. Is Village Idiot an actual "class" that is given in this game. I can tell you now that I am nothing special. Not a doctor, not a cop. I'm just a towny. And yes the things I have done up until now are rather short-thought and quite honestly personal. I realize now though that even if I am lynched the town can still win the game (me included) if we kill the mafia. So I guess in a way if I'm lynched we know that the people who started it or are "heading" it are most likely mafia.

3. Post what you think about all players, a short description what you think about every player can show what your thoughs are, and give that way a idea how you think the facts lie.

I think that you [jammer], VP Baltar, and Chiarosicada are the only ones actively trying to "get the ball rolling" and so far come off as the least scummy.
I think that Claramata is scummy (read above).
I think that Santos is a little bit too opinionated about things (maybe a bit stubborn), but I don't think that makes him scummy.
I also think that Lupo is similar to Santos, but he seems to be posted a lot less, so its hard to get a good picture of him.
I may have missed something, but I haven't seen Cartza post anything.
Porkens seems experienced enough, but he also seems to be a bit like a "fanboy" and do whatever everyone else likes to do.

Ein, I want you to claim.

What exactly do you want to hear from me? I'm a towny I have no special role (doctor, cop, etc).

IS there actually anyone besides me afraid we don't hear anything from him back?

Yeah I didn't plan on doing anything but reading from my last post onward, but VP Baltar and Chiarosicada put me in a better mood and I have things in perspective now.

Ein, I want you to speak.[/jammer]
Woof!

Frankly, it's difficult for me to tell whether you're newbie town or newbie scum. Either way, rolling over and giving up because you're at L-1 isn't going to help your cause. Please try to answer the questions other players have asked you, because your answers will help the town even if you end up lynched today.

I definitely don't buy your case against my predecessor. Why do you think johnny (now me, Chiarosicada) is scum?

Yes I'm trying to be more informative now. I've answered every question I could find to answer. And I have also already answered the question about johnny up there ^^.

Oh and

Unvote

as my case for johnny was flawed. I want to vote for Clara, but I'll wait up to hear responses from you guys (I think I've swapped my vote enough so far ).

[Einlanzers]

Santos

Vote: Living Players because we can't vote dead ones.

Whoa, shows how much I pay attention. A ':' would have been nice.

No, it was a joke, but the intention was voting for an actual player; I thought Living Players was an actual player in the game.

Yeah, Vote: Lupo El Loco. ...biatch :p

Are you saying that people who talk more are more likely to be scum than people who vote more?

That would be bad logic, if that is what he is saying.

@Lupo, what are we betting?

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

To answer jammer:

I've appealed to emotion before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Lupo, are you done stating the obvious? Does anyone look suspicious to you? Why?

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

I'm posing questions to players. I would like responses from them.

Where am I 'looking how it unfolds'?

Where should I have 'opinions on the matter'?

Actually, ignoring questions seems a little suspicious.

Well, its good to speculate what things could and couldn't be regarding a player bussing his/her partner. On the other side, you may be right that she is being an opportunistic scum not trying to offer anything else towards other players who definitely deserve some pressure.

So you would have been suspicious if I "random" voted Porkens? Why? (Even though there really isn't such a thing as a random vote unless your roll a die or something)

I would have been suspicious that your random vote would be on an IC considering you are the only other IC. But you were merely being humorous, right?

I know I am not certain ein is scum, and I feel a lot more can be discussed before we move toward a lynch. Why are you in a hurry to get him to claim and possibly lynch him?

Because the evidence towards him is not looking good. It looks scummy. If he wants retribution, then he should do something in his favor so he is not lynched today.

I would like to hear your case against me Santos, since I am in your top three of suspects.

I have a case against you? I asked you why you voted Porkens, but don't think I had an actual case. Why are you saying that I have placed you in my 'top 3' suspects? Did I say that?

Why are you asking for other people to back up your suspicions?

I am asking for what other people think because if they agree or do not agree I can then ask them questions about their thoughts.

If you're suspicious of ELL and myself, wouldn't you want to spend some time questioning us?

Again, I've already got my answers from you. Lupo, however, has not provided a damn thing.

So what is my objective? Get a claim from Ein because he definitely is suspect #1 on my list today and after his claim move on to Lupo because he is suspect #2. I'm not advocating lynching Ein today, am I? Where did I say that? I know I asked for a claim, but I don't recall saying 'I want to lynch Ein today'. The best thing we can do today is get a several suspects on the table and then decide collectively as to who we all agree should go to the rope today.

Right now it would be very easy for scum to come in and hammer him if he's town and end the day.

Exactly. They could hammer him, but then that would give me the satisfaction of knowing they are the scum because it was noted that he was at lynch minus 1 and that no other vote is warranted because we need him to claim due to his scummy performance.

Putting someone at L-1 is the same as saying you support their lynch. I've just explained above how easy it would be for scum to come in and kill him. You have facilitated this by putting him at L-1.

Also, are you proposing that we get multiple people to claim today before we make our lynch decision?

1) I support the lynch if he refuses to claim. I will unvote if his claim satisfies my suspcions or I will unvote after his claim (regardless of what I think his alignment is) and move on to Lupo.
2)I thought getting at least 1, if not 2 people to claim on Day 1 is perfect way to start? How would this be bad? Well, for one the doctor or cop could be the one we picked on, but the fact that Ein put himself out there like that is his own fault. We cannot ignore the evidence that started this lynch in the first place.

Yes, you listed me as one of the three people you were and/or are suspicious of today.

I'm not sure where I listed you three anywhere, but yes, as I read the thread and reread the thread I have questions I would like to pose towards suspicious players. As I've played mafia here I've grown accustomed to spreading the field of questions to particular players I find suspicious as opposed to tunneling one single player the entire Day. Such instances have gotten me lynched before because no one wanted to work with me because I had such tunnel vision. As I work around the player list, people might begin working with me if I broaden my spectrum of suspects. Ex: Lupo ignoring simple questions asked of him. Other people in the thread agree he should answer the question. This is what I find beneficial as working together as a team to find scum.

Not really. You asked "right?" and "does anyone agree?", which looks like you are trying to get people to back you up. If you wanted someone's opinion on the matter you would have asked specific people and said something like "do you agree or disagree with this?"

Once again, this must be a collaborative effort, VP. If what I present in who I find scummy is backed up by others, then we definitely have something to discuss. If my thoughts are shot down or called unsubstantial, then I will have to drop it and find something else to work on.

Oh and in case its not blatantly obvious for those who might not read the thread and see an instance to put down a vote not realizing it was the hammer vote...


Ein is at L-1! Do not vote until he has returned with a claim and/or a defense!


Do not vote Ein, or you will end the day!

There, that should be apparent enough for the newbies who can't even properly vote, etc.

Whatever :p

Someone else give it a shot then.

Look at it this way:

If Ein was a cop or a doctor, then he should have been more conservative in his random vote for a no lynch as well as the OMGUS he sent to jammer.

People are saying its suspicious of me to want a claim from him? The man indicted himself. How are we to trust him anymore unless he gives us a claim?

And if he does claim cop or doctor, wouldn't that be good that we at least had him claim before just lynching him?

And how are you to trust him if he claims now? He could simply, you know, lie about it.

Aye. This would be the point. If he lies, he is more likely to be counter claimed. If he is not counter claimed, then we are more inclined to believe him.

1) If he claims cop, then we expect results from him.
2) If he is a doctor, then we can expect him to die tonight.

Unvote

Ein, I want you to claim.

More activity plz

Fixed.

Well, Zorblag had to deal with a family thing, so he has all the right to be absent from the game. Everyone else not posting enough...suck it :p

Lupo, you still haven't given me an answer to my question posed to you earlier...have you?

---

Lupo

Vote: jammer

"I am not a crook!"

Random questions is just talking... It's easy for the mafia to talk and never take any risks. While by voting, they are taking risks that their voting record will ultimately look bad if they aren't careful. So I think random voting, at this point, is more likely to give clues.

And that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying talking is meaningless if you don't put your money where your mouth is.

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

To answer jammer:

I've appealed to emotion before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Lupo, are you done stating the obvious? Does anyone look suspicious to you? Why?

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

Yes, jammer (which is why I voted for him)

He seems to want to take the lead of the investigation a bit too much, and really actively questions other players to shift the attention away from himself.

@Lupo
You've been actively lurking all game. What players do you find most scummy this game? What do you think about Ein's wagon?

He does seem scummy so, without certainty, I would not oppose him getting lynched.

He does seem scummy so, without certainty, I would not oppose him getting lynched.

You've been making these kinds of content-free, wishy-washy posts all game.

Answer me this then, what kind of "content" do you expect when it's day 1 and all people can possibly be doing is running their mouths?

What do you think about Clara, do you think she is scummy for the 'silent' way she slipped on the wagon on Ein?

Meh. No opinion at this point.

He does seem scummy so, without certainty, I would not oppose him getting lynched.

You've been making these kinds of content-free, wishy-washy posts all game.

Answer me this then, what kind of "content" do you expect when it's day 1 and all people can possibly be doing is running their mouths?

Find contradictions, look for mafia, what are the underlieing thoughs if there is a vote, is it a mafia sneaking a lynch on a towny or town looking for mafia.

Let me put a counterquestion, what do you think D2 looks like?

Like D1, except we can analyse the previous voting patterns in regards to who was lynched and who he turned out to be. Perhaps some insight from a cop as well.

@Lupo, the vote on me of yours is as old as mine on Ein. I gave reasoning why my vote still stands.
You voted me on page 1 or 2 and comfirmed the vote on post 92
Is there a reason you are still voting me?
If there is, I like to hear a good reason.
......
text
......
If you see that Ein is scummy and you do not oppose to get him lynched. What holds you back from voting him, what makes you doubt?

Anwser the questions, if you like.

My reason for voting you is still the same.

What "holds me back" from voting for Ein is that he should be posting more, and I hope his latest message is not the only defence he's going to give us. Was that really your last word, Ein?

---

Cartza

No, I played two games on 2+2(poker forum)...I'm still very much a rookie thou...

---

Claramata

vote: Cartza Lets get this all started everyone.

@Claramata
Happy birthday, what do you think about the 3 week decline. Do you think it is a (to)long time to lynch someone or think it is normal?

Thank you for the birthday wishes, I was about to mention that so that no one thought I was lurking or something.

I see that you're used to chat mafia, and I've played on epicmafia a bit too. I tend to prefer the longer deadlines from forum-based mafia, this way we have more time to gather information all players involved. The more time people have to talk, the more likely it is that scum will slip up and do something suspicious.

Do you think forum-mafia makes some people overthinking the mafia-game. Did it ever happened to you that there is an easy conclusion(that is right), but with a load of posts you draw other conclusions(that are wrong).

As this is my first mafia game in over three years, I'm probably not the best person to ask this question of, but sometimes large number of posts can point to someone trying to use false logic as a misdirection, again, those things can be good and bad, depending on weither people pick up on the misdirection tactics or not, but I'm solidly of the opinion that any opportunity for the town to talk is an opportunity to gather information that is vitally needed.

In other news: I'm a little confused as to Einlanzers' behavior. First he votes NL, which I don't understand how a NL can help at this stage, as it means that we are missing the information that a lynch provides us, such as who voted when and under what conditions, ect. His reasoning for voting Jammer also seems suspicious to me, seeming a little sarcastic over Jammer's supposed "experience" with other sites and mafia. Jammer's vote on Einlanzers seemed to me like an attempt to push him into an explination of his NL vote, something that seems to me like a completely viable play.

Do you think Einlanzer deserves a serious vote from you Clara? Why or why not?

Right now he seems like a likely candidate, mostly because he seemed to get overly defensive for only one vote on him. The NL vote was odd, but not outright scummy behavior, his sarcasm and defensiveness towards Jammer after the question was poised seems off to me.

unvote
Vote: Einlanzers

Sorry for sounding like a Newb, Porkens, but what's a chainsaw-defense vote and why does Johnny's vote seem like one to you?

A no lynch vote hinders the town because our most powerful weapon is our vote, a NL loses us an opportunity to find scum and gives them the advantage of a night kill before we've even attempted to push them out.

Admittedly I'm not a numbers person, so I don't know if the odds Ein is reporting are correct, but I've always been under the impression that early-game NLs tend to hurt us.

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

I see it, and I don't like it. I don't find appeals to emotion to be particularly town-friendly, and it's trying to deflect from logic. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

Clara, why have you focused solely on ein and not brought any original ideas to the table even though you have experience scumhunting and would know how to do this?

I'm sorry if my newbish behavior has come across as scummy to you, but if you actually look you'll see that this is my first game in over three years on here. I'm rusty man.

And I'm focused on Ein because right now he seems like suspicious to me. The NL vote, the OMGUS vote on Jammer, and the appeal to emotion after a wagon had started all come to mind when I'm thinking of scummy behavior to back up my opinion on Ein.

---

Porkens

Porkens replaces SensFan

Vote Porkens hater

I lol'ed, I really did Surprised !

I'm going to vote for the antepenultimate person to make a non-/confirm post.

@Porkens
If a topic is quiet and going nowhere, and players are heading obviously the wrong way and going to speedlynch townys, would you try to rerail the game as IC, even if you where mafia?

Your question is unclear to me, unfortunately, because if the game is heading towards a speedlynch, then it isn't quiet and going nowhere.

If I assume that you meant "or" instead of "and," then I think I can answer.

If a topic is quiet and going nowhere, and I'm not comfortable with that; sometimes I will just let it sit and see who gets antsy. Other times I'll do something to shake the game up to hopefully get conversation going.

If I thought the town was "obviously" heading in the wrong direction, I assume that fact would be, either at that time or later, obvious to other people as well. With that in mind, it would be beneficial to me to act in the towns interest, even if I were scum.

That is assuming the situation is obviously bad. Not all speedlynches are bad, and lynching a townie isn't always the worst thing that can happen. In some cases, as town, I've supported, started, and hammered towny-lynches and not regretted it at all.

Would you act otherwise in newb games as mafia if you can get away with it, then in other games?
Something obvious for a seasoned player, isn't always quite obvious for a new player. And as mafia would you kill the other IC to be left over as the only experienced player and have better shots at winning, or would you kill a lurker to keep a game interesting.

For what it's worth, I think I approach every game the same way, although the results usually come out differently.

If a scum-gambit would work in a regular game, depending on how many layers of WIFOM it had, it would probably work in a newbie game, so my answer to the question I think your asking is "no, I'd play the same ~general~ way." But that's not saying much as I haven't really established an obvious meta (as far as I know).

Would I kill the other IC or a lurker? Honestly- as scum, I'd never kill someone I thought was actually lurking, unless I had a very strong gut feeling that they were a PR. Lurkers can hurt the town more often than help it, so it's pro-scum to leave them alive IMO.

I generally ignore who's IC and who isn't. I don't ~think~ there's any rhyme or reason to the role distribution. That is to say; if one IC is scum the other wont be (I'm not 100% sure on that fact, though) so as scum I might NK an IC or I might not, it would depend on the IC and the game.

Oh, and vote Lupo El Loco

Is there a way to have links to just a post? In can recall an other forum where quotes are automatically linked to the post it came from.

The code for the above is

(quote="(url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 76#1724476)jammer in 44(/url)")Is there a way to have links to just a post? In can recall an other forum where quotes are automatically linked to the post it came from.(/quote)

just replace () with [].

to get the url for specific posts, click on the little white (sometimes its red, too) page icon next to the timestamp of that individual post.

Random questions is just talking... It's easy for the mafia to talk and never take any risks. While by voting, they are taking risks that their voting record will ultimately look bad if they aren't careful. So I think random voting, at this point, is more likely to give clues.

Are you saying that people who talk more are more likely to be scum than people who vote more?

Well seeing as noone posted, I had no idea what anyone's personality was, so I couldn't even try to guess who was scum and who wasn't.

His very next post:

I believe he (jammer) did it because he knows who is scum and who is not.

Woah there pardner, are you saying you now know his personality enough to unload this much of a direct scum-accusation?

unvote
vote: Einlanzers

L-2 (2 votes away from a lynch)

If he flips scum I already think his partner is jonny, for that chainsaw-defense vote.

I might be misusing the term, but from my understanding it means this;

When one scum comes under fire/suspicion/votes, the OTHER scum will vote/FOS/Attacj their attacker for, ostensibly, unrelated reasons. Basically "your attacking my partner, so I'm going to attack you."

Since Johnny hasn't said a word about you (Clara), but voted for you right after you voted for Lazerz, it comes off (to me, at least) as the kind of defense listed above.

Ah, but go go gadget reading. Cartza and Carla are, in fact, different.

Please ignore me.

Yeah, it could be. I'd like to keep the pressure on for a little while, though; at least till his next post.

NL takes all power away from the town. It only works on EM so well because the setups are all open and familiar enough to "game."

Rest assured that 1 vote != a lynch. Most of forums mafia is voting for one another and seeing how the pressure, or lack thereof, affects people. Your declarative "I'm not voting because I don't want to risk lynching a townie therefore I'm so protown" wont hold water, unfortunately.

I'm not saying that it MAKES you scum to have that position, but that combined with your OMGUS (oh my god you suck) vote on your attacker, in my experience, are definitely scum-tells.

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

I could see it as a noob thing. But to declare, more than once; "I am town and I'm being lynched...poor me" is a noob-scum tactic (no offense). So is "I'm just a noobie, cut me some slack."

I'm not saying it's a strong scumtell, but it is certainly not compelling me to move my vote, nor is it an acceptable defense.

Thoughts jammer?

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

I'm focused on Lazerz right now, and I'd like to reserve my other suspicions for the time being.

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

How about Town and mafia-newbies?

Ein is a good lynch. Vote for him now (hammer) and be a hero to the town.

(real post commin' later)

Baltar, why aren't you voting for Santos?

unvote

Lazer'z last post seems genuine to me. I'll believe his claim for the time being.

Someone else has been itching at my craw lately and I'll just come out and ask:

Santos; why have you mention Lupo so much in this game?

vote; Santos

[Einlanzers]

Sorry for the REALLY long post guys. I was doing some research and needed the visual aid. If you guys think it is too bulky feel free to ask the Mod to remove it. OK after reading all that I now seeing something....I can see the logic in most of everyone's responses. I now think Clara is less scummy-looking because she was merely reacting to the strange way I was acting and jumped on board. I guess we'll have to see what she replies with soon. Oh and I didn't post jammer, VP Baltar, or Chiarosicada as:
a) They post A LOT (would've been more spam)
b) They seem the least scummy to me.

Here's my listing of top scummy people:
1) Claramata
2) Lupo
3) Porkens
4) Santos
5) Cartza (only because he hasn't posted anything though...)

[Einlanzers]

I'm confused einlanzers you say:

I now think Clara is less scummy-looking because she was merely reacting to the strange way I was acting and jumped on board.

And yet she is your top suspect. Please explain this.

Also, just for future reference, you don't have to post like that to see someone's posts in isolation. All you have to do is go to the bottom of the page, and just below the 'Submit' button is a pull down menu with the name of every player who has posted in this game. Just select the player you would like to look at in isolation and click go and you will be redirected to just their posts. It's a very useful feature when you what to review a player or look for something specific. You can also search for posts by time period and change their order from oldest to newest.

I said she was

less

scummy-looking now, but she still hopped on the wagon rather quickly. She switched her vote after:
1) I voted No Lynch
2) VP asked her why she wasn't voting for me.
Seems that she's easily swayed and that smells scummy to me. She seems less scummy because before I didn't factor in my "No Lynch" as a suspicious act in-and-of-itself, so it looked like she voted that way just because you told her to

[Einlanzers]

@Ein, after rereading your last post. You seem sincere and show interest in finding mafia. In my viewpoint you haven't added anything new to the discussion, as in asking questions to other players, and I would doubt your suspicions on Carla would be exising if VP didn't point them out before.
But if I see what Carla and Lupo posted, you're far from alone on my suspect list.
Yes, my top 3 suspects are Ein, Lupo and Carla.

In any case, you do not have the highest ammount of votes, after this post.

Unvote: Einlanzers

I didn't factor in my "No Lynch" as a suspicious act in-and-of-itself, so it looked like she voted that way just because you told her to

The ''no lynch'' was imo not a scum-act, but more a newb-approach. The voting you for a ''no lynch'' was to make clear a ''no lynch'' is not the best way to start, and it worked extremely well getting out of random votes.
The way you responded to me, was reason I kept the vote and also the reason Carla voted you at the time.

Ok, Einlanzers. Do you have any questions for the other players?

@jammer:
Why do you think that Lupo is a high suspect? We know (or at least I assume) the reasons for myself and Carla.

@Carla:
Do you feel that the suspicion about you is fair? If not what is your justification. Do you maintain your vote for me because you are still suspicious of me or because you want to "keep the heat on"?

@Santos:
I'm not sure that you pulling your vote for me was an act of compassion (towny act) or a front (scummy act). How can you explain it?

@Porkens:
Are you only voting for Santos because he seemed so facinated with Lupo? Do you have any other reasons for accusing him.

@VP Baltar:
You've been defending me pretty much this entire game. I highly doubt that you are scum as it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for scum to protect a towny and take the chance of him (or his partner) getting lynched instead. But then again maybe you're so smart that you assumed we would think that, so we wouldn't assume you as mafia. What do you think?

@Chiarosicada:
I realize you are leaving and wont respond to this for awhile, but I have a questions for you:
- Do you suspect Clara because of her "bandwagon" vote on me early in the game?
- Do you suspect Lupo because of his random vote that he's stuck with throughout? Or because of something in particular he has said?

Seeing as Cartza AND Lupo El Loco are leaving I can't ask them anything :/.

[Einlanzers]

Me pulling my vote wasn't intended to show my alignment. I was pulling it for my own sake because you actually humored us with a post and claim that sounded like a townie giving up and fingering two players you suspected the most before you died. I was hoping people would speculate on that and decide if you were lynch worthy today or not.

Sounds valid enough.


@Hurleys_Van,
Welcome to the community. At least you don't have any comments to prove yourself against as Cartza didn't post much. . After you finish reading please post your feelings on who you think is scummy and not and reasons. Thanks .

[Einlanzers]

Mentioning one player a lot is fine by itself, and it may be fine in this case, too. However, when about 75% of your posts are mentioning one player in a variety of ways (i.e. agreeing, dissagreeing, attacking, etc...) then I see a connection.

True, but maybe they are secret lovers in real life and want to hide it by being overly rude to eachother on here. That's one theory. That or they just have different personalities that clash, etc. But I do get your point to single out a person that hasn't done too much and continually throw one-sided questions at them is a little scum-like

@Head_Honcho,
Welcome, how many mafia scum gaves have you played before?

[Einlanzers]

My wild theory for this post is maybe there's a Porkens Ein Scum team and Porkens wouldn't to jump right out of the gate claiming no alliegence to him.

Heh, I think if I were scum it would be far more likely for VP to be my "associate" than anyone else. Followed maybe by Chiar. In any case though I find it odd that you seem to think this is true (or maybe you just said it as a joke) yet you have jammer on your list between Porkens and I. Why is that?

[Einlanzers]

Oh BTW I will be leaving Thursday 25th (technically today) for Wisconsin with the family for a vacation. Wont be back until Sunday the 28th, so I probably wont be posting until then. Just a heads up.

[Einlanzers]

@Claramata
Sorry your name is not Carla :/. I apologize.

@VP Baltar

If we are right and you flip scum, then yay for us. If you flip town, we still gain lots of information judging from people's reactions to your wagon, and for those on it, why they joined the wagon.

I find this a bit hippocritical. Not too far back you were yelling at someone for voting against me even though they thought I'd "flip town" and yet you say pretty much the same thing here. What gives?

@Hurleys_Van
I've grown suspcious of you for the same reason I've grown suspicious of Claramata. You vote Porkens and then VP snaps his fingers and you vote Santos. This seems awfully scummy to me. How do you defend?

@Chiarosicada

unvote, vote: Porkens

Why the sudden change of heart?

My List of Scum:
1) Hurleys_Van - Swing vote
2) Claramata - Swing vote
3) Chiarosicada - Bandwagon

Santos has moved further down my list for his long post actually ANSWERING questions .
Head Honcho seems a bit suspicious to me for focusing ALL OF HIS attention on Santos. I may have missed something but I don't recall him ever talking about anyone else being even as close to scummy as Santos. And seeing as he is second on the bandwagon it makes me wonder...
Futhermore VP Baltar is going a bit up on my list aswell. This is the second time he snaps his fingers and someone changes their vote. Not to mention he hasn't voted the entire game until now when a large bandwagon is forming. Seems a little scummy to me.


P.S. If I missed a question directed at me please ask again. I tried to respond to everything I found, but it was 4 pages of talking...I could easily have missed something.

[Einlanzers]

unvote, vote: Porkens

Why the sudden change of heart?

You, however, have clearly read 262, but you're (deliberately?) omitting my reasons for voting Porkens, which was in the same post.

That was actually a typo. I meant to remove that part from my post :/. Here's a long explanation for something so small/silly. I sorted posts in reverse order so I saw you vote Porkens then Claramata. So my questions was "why did you switch to Claramata?" But it doesn't matter I goofed up. Sorry :/.

[quotee="Chiarosicada"]

My List of Scum:
..
3) Chiarosicada - Bandwagon

The easiest wagons have been yours and Santos', neither of which I have been on. Explain.

I'm starting to seriously consider a Porkens/Ein scumpair. I think Porkens tried to bus Ein early on, but changed his mind after the wagon stalled on page 6.[/quote]

Just because you didn't join the "easiest" bandwagons doesn't alleviate you of being scummy. I really don't see a lot of why you're voting Porkens though. All I see is:

Porkens went from Ein to Santos awfully easily, and I don't buy that a single post by Ein was what changed his mind -- rather, I think it was the accelerating Santos wagon

I'm not saying he's definantly not scum, but it took him 4 days and a plea/claim by me to make him switch his vote. That's quite a bit more than what you switch your vote off of (other people hopping on a wagon).

Porkens seems experienced enough, but he also seems to be a bit like a "fanboy" and do whatever everyone else likes to do.

This is all Ein has said about Porkens all game, including his latest post -- you'd think he'd at least address the person surest of his lynch earlier on.

Yeah I haven't said a whole lot about Porkens all game becaus I can't get a clear reading on him. What he posts doesn't usually contain a lot of content. After re-reading all his posts all I get is that he's overly sarcastic and doesn't usually seem to be the first one to vote someone.

Just the vote on Porkens brought Chia into the top3?
There was no good reason to vote Porkens?

Yes it did actually. Not the vote itself, but the pretext and the little reasoning behind it besides him switching votes and other people voting for him aswell. Seems fishy to me.

And as for your second question. Yes I do think he's scummy. Not as much as my top 3, so I'm not ready to vote for him until he is found to be more scummy than those 3.

Following out of this.
How is the bw on Porkens(2 votes) more suspicious then the bw on Santos(4 votes)? This When you put Santos down the 'scumlist'.
You suspect Santos more then Porkens?

Honestly I'm not sure anymore. Santos lengthy reply quenched my thirst for him to talk, but that doesn't put him out of the scumlist yet. They are both very close to being tied around #4 and #5.


@VP Baltar
I realize you don't "control" anyone, but you seem to be one of the most talkative ones here. It just seems odd that twice you recommended (or rather questioned) someone about their vote and it flipped. And I agree it makes them look scummier than you.

I still think it's a crock that you can talk about lynching town whilst lecturing about not doing it. Sure you think he's mafia, but that's not guaranteed, and by my guesstimations he's only like 50% likely to be scum right now. That's generally not a chance I'm willing to take.

@Santos
I already made my list above, but I think that:
Hurleys_Van
Head Honcho
Are the most likely to be scum on your wagon, but I get the feeling that you only have 1 scum on your wagon so far.

@All
There are quite a few people focusing on a single person and not really scum-hunting anyone else. Now this could just be a good strategy to make sure that the person is or isn't scum, but it seems scummy to me to try to draw attention to a single other person.

[Einlanzers]

Please quote me where I said he was more likely to flip town than scum. If you can do that, then you have a point. As far as your 50% goes, I take that to mean you think he has done just as many scummy things as town things, correct?

I never said that you said he was more likely to flip town than scum. I'm not sure where you are getting that. I merely said that you speak of him having a chance to be town and him being lynched would still be beneficial. Here's some quotes:

That on it's own is ok, but what bothers me is that you seem to be more ok with the Ein lynch even though you "believe he'd flip town". That is ludicrous. You should never want to lynch someone who you believe would flip town. Why is this even an option? Doesn't the Santos lynch give us roughly the same information while still having a much higher likelihood of hitting scum?

If we are right and you flip scum, then yay for us. If you flip town, we still gain lots of information judging from people's reactions to your wagon, and for those on it, why they joined the wagon.

I don't think he'll flip town, that's the difference. Even if I'm fairly certain he'll flip scum, that doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist that he'll come up town. Mislynches happen all the time in this game, and I don't claim to know who's on what side, but I was pointing out that lynching Santos still at least has some sort of upside even if he turns town.

And as for your second question. Yes. 50% means he's roughly even for scummy and towny activity thusfar. Which is why he's in the middle of my last because some people have done 80% scummy activity.

[Einlanzers]

You realize that no matter how good you think your read on somebody is, they do have the chance of flipping town, correct? I don't get what your point is. Are you saying it's scummy to consider what the situation will look like if he does happen to flip town?

Yes I do. For all we know the scum could have just as well not looked to see if they are scum and are just playing as town OR they are really good actors and can play as if they are town while still covering their and their partners butts. In any case though my only qualm was that you stated one thing and acted against it. I also don't like the fact that you are "OK" with lynching a town to find information. It may help us in the long run, but it could easily hurt us.

Ein; how can ou focus pressure if you don't focus on one person at a time?

This is true. You can only vote on one person at a time, but you most certainly can ask questions to quite a few people at a time. I really don't like your style of answering one question and posting one question (or just one of those) in your posts. We aren't getting a lot of information from you and it doesn't look like your scum-hunting, so it makes you look awfully scummy to me.

@HV
It looks like VP's jedi mind tricks don't last very long. You seem to vote swap rather easily. Will you switch back to Santos tomorrow?

I think he's scummy for hopping on easy lynches with little scumhunting, and I think I've made that clear. Why am I scummy?

But that seems to be EXACTLY what you are doing. You didn't start the bandwagon, you joined it.

@jammer
Do the "points" you have for each "case" add up to their total scumminess? (Meaning since Santos has the most points you think he's the scummiest) If not what is the order of scummiest from that list?

@Santos
I believe it's this:

3) One scum had their vote on me while the other is waiting for the call sign to hammer.

And seeing as jammer voted for you recently and I know that I'm not scum I would deduce that Clara is the other scum. I highly doubt there would be a scum on each wagon. I'm still not 100% on who the scum is on your wagon though. I'm leaning towards Porkens and H_H right now though.

^Or was your defense on Ein entirely a scum buddy defense for your partner?

Well I can answer this. You can believe or disbelieve me all you want, but I know that I am town. I have no clue what he is. For all I know he could be scum trying to cover his tracks.

1) You're a townie defending a townie

I still believe that this is the case. Although he has risen on my list of scum suspects he is still nowhere near the top.

He's not a god damned idiot, that's what I think.

Thank you . I'm trying to sort the truth from the BS in this thread and it's taking awhile because there seems to be A LOT of BS :/.

@Santos
Come back to the

Vote Porkens

bus

@Everyone
I still have high suspicions for Clara. I'm hoping that one of these lynch candidates (Porkens or Santos) is scum. I believe (and I very well could be wrong) that she will put the kabash on the town one and therefore we will know that Clara is scum and whoever isn't lynched is scum. I REALLY don't like the thought of lynching a townie, but if we can get both scum out of the way by day 3 that would be wonderful . This being said I really hope that Clara comes back and at least says something (if not votes!). I think that if she doesn't vote one way or another someone should step down from the Santos wagon because its a clear indication that she doesn't want to appear scummy but still wants Santos lynched.

[Einlanzers]

@VP
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not "going after" Porkens because of his IC status. Also if Porkens were to post an actual reply and explain his actions and his feelings for each player it may quell me enough to pull my vote, but as of now I feel that Porkens is lurking an awful lot and only posting to vote :/.

[Einlanzers]

@VP
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not "going after" Porkens because of his IC status. Also if Porkens were to post an actual reply and explain his actions and his feelings for each player it may quell me enough to pull my vote, but as of now I feel that Porkens is lurking an awful lot and only posting to vote :/.

Your defensiveness to a broad accusation is noted.

Your statement of something obvious is noted. It wasn't really a "defense" more of an explanation anyway :/. I grow weary of posting such small posts though...

[Einlanzers]

Some information

My Wagon:
jammer, Claramata, Porkens, Santos

Santos' Wagon:
Porkens, Head_Honcho, VP Baltar, jammer

Porkens' Wagon:
Chiarosicada, Hurleys_Van, Einlanzers, Santos

Porkens and jammer were both on my wagon and now are on Santoses wagon.
Santos was on my wagon and is now on Porkens' wagon.

It seems highly suspect to me that Porkens and/or jammer are scummer.
This also makes Santos look scummy, but it seems less so.

New list:
1) Porkens
2) jammer
3) Santos

[Einlanzers]

Chiar lynch isn't happening today imo.

I agree Chair isn't scummy enough (to me) for a lynch. And with such little time left in the day it will be hard to convince me of such, but it is possible I guess. I think we were on the right track with Porkens/Santos. Now that it's falling apart though it makes HH look quite scummy with a partner of Porkens/Santos.

[Einlanzers]

Chiar lynch isn't happening today imo.

I agree Chair isn't scummy enough (to me) for a lynch. And with such little time left in the day it will be hard to convince me of such, but it is possible I guess. I think we were on the right track with Porkens/Santos. Now that it's falling apart though it makes HH look quite scummy with a partner of Porkens/Santos.

Care to elaborate?

It just seems to me that you left a bandwagon and disregarded a bandwagon to try to focus attention elsewhere. So naturally I assume that the target of one of those wagons is your ally that you are trying to protect.

[Einlanzers]

The Santos wagon looks awfully scummy now:
Porkens (15), VP Baltar (18), jammer (25), Col.Cathart (30), Head_Honcho (31)
And with VP out of the picture that just leaves:
Porkens, jammer, Col. Cathart, and Head_Honcho.

I assume at least one of those is scum (if not 2). And seeing as CC and HH were the last 2 to vote on him make them the most suspicious in my books. The last thing we need right now is another mislynch. I'm glad that I was correct in my assumptions of Santos being town, but saddened that he was mislynched :/.

[Einlanzers]

@jammer Here's my list of top 3 scummiest:
HH
CC
Porkens
From that list you should be able to see who I think is the worst of those 2

@Porkens,
Yes which means that:
1) You're scum
OR
2) You're towny and just got lucky
OR
3) You're towny and he felt more confident in selecting Santos as a scapegoat.

Right now I'm feeling #3, but #1 is still a possibility. I'm about 51%/49% as of now

[Einlanzers]

@HH
Heh. Yes at one point he was in my top 3 scummy list. But he slowly drifted down into my unsure then into my towny list. In any case though I knew that Porkens would be a better choice at that moment. And now it appears that there may be a few other good choices.

@HV
Meh. I'm not sure what you mean. I've been actively posting and trying my best to do some scum hunting. What more do you want from me?

@HH
What do you think of Porkens and Col.Cathart? Do you think that they're scum or towny?

Oh and

Vote Head_Honcho

[Einlanzers]

I don't like when people preemptively opt out of responsibility for a possible lynch. I think Ein is probably a townie, yes partly because of his recent posting, but mostly because this game is never that simple. Scum in newbie games like to fall back on 'textbook scum tells' to lynch newer players, and there aren't really any consequences to railroading them since you have cited your sources. However, you also have cases where the scum get to just watch townies lynch eachother, but I get the feeling the Ein wagon had some scum squatting on it. And I think Santos is one of them. A lot of his posts for a while were just comments on how the role I replaced into was not active, and he was even called on posting without really saying anything and was just kind of snarky in response.

vote: Santos

Actually,

unvote

calling it. Chia/Jammer. Read over their games, see their interactions.

vote: chiarosicada

I am not as certain about jammer, he is not reciprocating the love as much as chia's giving it.

yeah, chi thing isn't happening. I guess my deal with Santos was partly that he seemed almost too perfect as a scum candidate, and hitting scum for strong reasons day one is still kind of my white whale. Let's find out.

unvote vote: santos

do or die

Here's what I get out of this (this is what Head Honcho is thinking):
1) I point the blame at Santos to deter attention away from myself (and possibly Porkens)
2) I get annoyed with Chia and think that possibly pushing a bandwagon after him would be a good idea.
3) The bandwagon on Chia has failed to pick up steam and Santos is now at L-1. I can hammer him!

So it would appear most logical that the pair of HH/Porkens would make the most sense at this time.

[Einlanzers]

HH, I just re-read the past 5 pages and didn't see any Chia/Jammer cooperation going on at all. In fact I don't see anything overly scummy about Chia from any of it. To me this makes you look MORE scummy. Furthermore after reading over it...you seem to be defending Porkens an awful lot. At this point a HH/Porkens pair seems quite possible.

[Einlanzers]

Unvote

Vote: Porkens

OK I got what I was looking for . I do think H_H is scummy but I was waiting for Porkens to hop on the wagon to prove that they are not partners as I think Porkens is the scummier one at this point (for obvious reasons).

[Einlanzers]

@Chiarosicada, I think it's just a ploy to prevent us from lynching him. I'd be really interested to hear who his innocent is though. Also if there's a cop isn't there also supposed to be a doctor? They obviously didn't save VP :/. I'm quite certain that Porkens is scum as-of-now. But that could change if he posted more on his thoughts and on his "innocent".

[Einlanzers]

@Chia:
Porkens - 10
9
8
7
HH - 6
5
4
3
Chia - 2
1
0

0 Being town and 10 being scum

Porkens is my main suspect right now. Even when he's this close to lynch he still isn't posting anything over one sentence. I'd like to hear how he feels on EACH player and of course who his innocent is.

I do think that HH is scummy, but for now I need to find out what's going on with this whole Porkens mess.

Although I gave you crap earlier on I don't think you're very likely to be scum (though I could be wrong). You, jammer, and VP are all posting a lot and not acting overly scummy to me.

[Einlanzers]

My vote stands until we get some sort of in-depth post from Porkens.

[Einlanzers]

I'm quite certain that Porkens is scum as-of-now. But that could change if he posted more on his thoughts and on his "innocent".

Porkens is my main suspect right now. Even when he's this close to lynch he still isn't posting anything over one sentence. I'd like to hear how he feels on EACH player and of course who his innocent is.

[Einlanzers]

Sorry guys I went out of town for the weekend and just got back. Sorry I didn't let you know ahead of time :/. Anyways:

Porkens: 3: Hurleys_Van (3), Einlanzers (5), jammer (7)
jammer: 1: Porkens (8)

Not voting: Chiarosicada, Col.Cathart, Head_Honcho

Here's the 2 possibilities as I see them:
1) Porkens is cop. Chiarosicada is town. And I would guess that Col Cath and HH are town aswell as they haven't hammered the "cop" yet. That leaves myself, HV, and jammer on the suspects list. If I take myself out (I can do that, maybe you can't ) then that leaves jammer and HV. Very interesting.
2) Porkens is scum. Then most likely his bandwagon is full of townies so that leaves Chia, Col Cathart, and HH. And seeing as he claims Chia as town that would make me most suspicious of him as the partner (followed closely by HH).
3) Porkens is town (but not cop). That's pretty much the same as #1, but without Chia being town necessarily. It still isn't too likely that scum is sitting on the sidelines avoiding a hammer, but it is

more

likely than if he were a cop.

I still want to hear how he feels about everyone else though. He promised us that "by this weekend" (I think he worded it) and it's late Sunday night :/.

[Einlanzers]

@Porkens
What do you hope to accomplish with this?

Looks like a last stitch effort to divert attention away from yourself. I know that I have some prejudice in this matter, but this makes you look more scummier to me. And in all honesty your lynch would yield a lot of information. Hrm, but if you were cop then Chia will most likely be NK'd and I'd rather not lose 2 confirmed(ish) towns in one fell swoop. I really wish you weren't being so scummy and then maybe I'd believe you...

Now that he's posted "some" more content how do you guys feel? I kind of feel cheated. Just looks like he's listing off "facts" and adding no opinion to me. In any case I'm still retaining my vote until I hear other's oppinions. I'd really hate to lynch a town (cop or not).

I'm most concerned with Chia's opinion of Porkens at this point TBH.

[Einlanzers]

Well you didn't even answer my question.

Do you really think I'm scum and want to lynch me?

OR

Are you pressuring me? What do you want me to say/do/etc? I think I've stated my opinions quite a few times.

[Einlanzers]

Ein - You went silent, even when Porkens answered and accused you back. Why?

I was not silent I made a medium-sized post in return. To which he replied to then I replied to his reply .

In any case, as I said earlier I think he's trying to "stir the pot" and use mirror tricks to make everyone believe something just so he wont be lynched today. I'm still not 100% that he's scum..but he definantly smells of someone squirming to stay alive.

[Einlanzers]

@H_H

I'm still not 100% that he's scum..but he definantly smells of someone squirming to stay alive.

Notice that I didn't insinuate that because he's squirming he is scum. Merely that he is squirming.

My suspects list is running a little low. If we don't end up lynching Porkens today who is the best candidate?

I guess my next vote would lie upon one of the following:
jammer, Head_Honcho, or Col.Cathart
As they were all on the Santos bandwagon.

That doesn't mean that Chiarosicada and Hurleys_Van aren't scum, but I'd find them less-likely to be so.

Honestly, I don't get any real scum-tells from jammer. So in my mind:
1) Porkens
2) Head_Honcho
3) Col.Cathart

I still think Porkens is the best candidate. The only issue I'm confused on is if Porkens is scum why he would say that Chia is town (if Chia really is town). I guess we will see :/.

[Einlanzers]

@Porkens
I guess I misread it at first. I thought you were asking others if me saying

that

(570) was a scum tell.

As for someone squirming to stay alive. As I've posted twice before...no. It just means that you want to stay alive. That can be town or scum. I myself was squirming/whining/etc to stay alive at the beginning of the game.

In short,
I was saying that I'm not sure that you're scum. I'm just sure that you have self-preservation in mind .

[Einlanzers]

I didn't realize HH's post was about me. As it doesn't seem to be talking about me :/

Interesting, now you find the Santos wagon inherently scummy. Why is that? You had cited before how you thought Santos was a townie, but you had pretty much said you were fine with his lynch day one, and at the least did nothing to discourage the wagon. You've never actually said what you didn't like about the Santos wagon, so I am dying to hear it.

I've stated before that there is a very good chance of there being 1 scum on the wagon and a fairly good chance of there being 2. This isn't something new...

I never said I was fine with his lynch. If you are talking to me... I said that I found him slightly scummy, but I had never claimed lynching Santos would be beneficial..if I was fine with it, I would have switched wagons and hammered him.

I didn't do EVERYTHING I could to protect Santos because I wasn't positive he was town. I did try to get people on the Porkens wagon because I felt (and still do) that he is quite scummy.

What I didn't like about the Santos wagon? It was a wagon driven on little gas. So the guy didn't post a lot of content (sounds like someone else I know...). So the guy was sarcastic (again...ding). So he was singling out another person (*DING*DING*). Besides these claims I don't see anything scum about him... So that leads me to believe his wagon was filled with scum and a couple naive townies.

[Einlanzers]

@HH
I was referring to Porkens in my *DING*DING*s. Also I never stated that I knew Santos was town. I only stated that I thought he was not the best candidate for a lynch as of yesterday. If you read otherwise please let me know.

To reiterate: I'm not claiming that I knew Santos was town. I didn't "convey that he was town yesterday" because I didn't know that he was for sure until he was, in fact, lynched.

And the whole "Naive" thing was in reference to townies hopping on the wagon and being strung along with the scum. Porkens was lurking a lot more and when he did post it was of less content than Santos and some of Porkens' voting was a bit suspicious (in my books). So that made him a much better candidate.

[Einlanzers]

Nice long post, Vino. I'm glad to see that Chia got replaced by another person who posts quite a bit of content .

Secondly, sorry I haven't been around much. Yesterday was my birthday and I've been relaxing/having fun all weekend.

@Vino,
You post that H_H seems quite towny to you. What post(s) make you think that?
Also how can you go from critiquing Porkens so much on his irrational actions to saying that he plays consistantly, and that he must be town?

[Einlanzers]

Vino,
You don't think Porkens vote on me seems scummy? If it isn't scummy is it personal? Short-sighted? What?

[Einlanzers]

Now. Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't notice anywhere Ein's answer to HH's post 590

I know you never stated you knew Santos was town, my problem is you never stated you thought he was town. Also, apparently you're trying to use what you didn't like about the Santos wagon to.. Further the Porkens wagon? You're basically saying 'these were worthless points against Santos, but DING they apply to Porkens too!'. Additionally, they weren't really the points against Santos, nobody wanted to lynch him for being sarcastic. And I don't know if anybody's accusing Porkens of tunneling... If anything it's more that he's bandwagoning.

Though, I don't know why I'm banging my head against the wall here. What it comes down to is that you're lying. You basically called me scum yesterday when I was saying I was uneasy about lynching Santos. You open today with this post:

The Santos wagon looks awfully scummy now:
Porkens (15), VP Baltar (18), jammer (25), Col.Cathart (30), Head_Honcho (31)
And with VP out of the picture that just leaves:
Porkens, jammer, Col. Cathart, and Head_Honcho.

I assume at least one of those is scum (if not 2). And seeing as CC and HH were the last 2 to vote on him make them the most suspicious in my books. The last thing we need right now is another mislynch. I'm glad that I was correct in my assumptions of Santos being town, but saddened that he was mislynched :/.

Which seems to contrast slightly with one of your last posts of day one:

New list:
1) Porkens
2) jammer
3) Santos

It worries me that you refuse to answer for this inconsistency.

Actually it worried me as well, and since you didn't answer this one, you're getting another minus in my book, Ein.

What am I supposed to answer here? Why they aren't consistent? They seem pretty consistent to me. I'm saying that the whole bandwagon for Santos looks scummy (including jammer and Porkens) after I made my top 3 list. Also you have to keep in mind that with new evidence comes new opinions. You think after Santos is lynched and found to be a towny I wouldn't change my opinion at all? I really don't get what BOTH of you are asking me. My top 2 people were still on my list even AFTER a lynch..that seems more than consistent to me...

[Einlanzers]

OK it makes sense that you guys suspect me because I was on the opposite wagon than the scum wagon, but to keep bringing up stupid crap like this:

...

what.

THE POINT IS YOU DID NOT THINK SANTOS WAS TOWN, YOU ARE JUST USING IT TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK ADORABLE TODAY. IT IS NOT COMPLICATED.

I am down to

Vote Hurley's Van

I wasn't trying to use it to make myself look adorable/intelligent/scum-hunter-ific today/yesterday/any-day. I merely was stating that I didn't think he was a prime candidate for a lynch and I was sad to see a towny lynched. Can we just drop this now...?

Speaking of lynches, I am glad you guys managed to get ahold of a scum and go through with the lynch and rather quickly in fact:

List of Votes for HV

Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:38 pm - Col.Cathart
Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:25 am - Head_Honcho
Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:12 am - Porkens
Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:26 am - Vino

Now I have 2 theories about this:
#1) Remaining scum stayed away from the wagon. Jammer or myself.
#2) Scum bussed on the wagon to draw suspicion away from themselves.

I'm really thinking it's #2, but it is possible for Jammer to be scum aswell. For #2 to be possible we have to exclude Porkens and Vino. That leaves Col. Cathart and Head_Honcho. I thought Col. Cathart started that wagon with a good post (and what scum would START a wagon against their ally?):

In Porkens case, really nothing changed in my opinion. We are in dead end here, and only way to know the truth is to lynch Porkens. And I want to wait with this especially because, of HV.

Yes, I know, I will sound like a hypocrite here. Really sorry for this once again.

HV was called for active lurking. In response he gave us a one liner, which helped nothing and solved nothing. He went silent once again (isn't that 3 prod for him already?), and that's about it. If Porkens is ignoring call on him for playing scummy, then HV is doing it in spades.

So my current list of suspects right now:

1) Hurleys Van
2) Einlanzers
3) Porkens

Unfortunately, lynching the first one seems impossible now, but I'm gonna try anyway. I wanted to hammer Porkens several times already, but HH's and Vito's explanations made me change my mind. It's actually a bit weird, that two other players did it, instead of Porkens himself ~^

vote: Hurley's Van

Head_Honcho's was a bit lacking (see first quote above ^^).
So my list right now signs of:
1) Head_Honcho
2) jammer

[Einlanzers]

Honcho not only has been hugely active this game (unusual for his meta) but he called for me to place the hammer on Hurley, his accused "scum buddy" according to you. I would say he was instrumental in getting HV lynched. So, this attempt to frame Honcho as the scum when the facts don't look anything like that are quite odd. Seems like a gross misrepresentation to me.

see, THAT is wifom. In a non lylo situation it does not inherently make him scummy when nobody hammers him. We have a deadline midday tomorrow, I don't know if this has been made clear, but basically we lynch somebody else or our claimed cop gets lynched. We are in a much better position information wise to decide whether or not we want to believe porkens tomorrow. It is nonideal to lynch him today.

Basically, if Vino and Porkens don't vote HV Porkens gets lynched. Hopefully Porkens will check in, which makes it kind of up to you Vino.

I don't know how I missed that post. Thanks for pointing that out. That post does make him very much so less suspicious.

Day two you said you thought he was a townie before he was lynched.

Do you understand? (Yes/No)

Yes

New list:
1) Porkens
2) jammer
3) Santos

I'm glad that I was correct in my assumptions of Santos being town

You guys keep quoting the above and I can see how you can be confused. I guess I did misspeak there. I guess what I meant to say is:

I'm glad to see that my assumption of Porkens being more scummy is correct, but....

I apologize for misspeaking can we move on?

Knowing that Vino is town and we have in-depth posts from Col.Cathart and Head_Honcho it makes jammer quite suspect in my eyes.

Vote: jammer

[Einlanzers]

The site was acting up/temporarily down earlier:

Mod Note: Please remove my double post

[Einlanzers]

You don't believe that I could miss a post the first time around :ROLLS EYES:. It's not like I re-read each post every day. I read it once and then maybe a second time if I'm going to quote someone..it's very easy to skim over something. And he did make a strong case against HV, so it is unlikely that he is scum. The only 2 people that didn't post anything against HV are myself and jammer and you know where my vote falls.

[Einlanzers]

I agree carelessness isn't a good trait to have...but it was one time. Fine add it as +1 to my scumminess.

I suspected you and Porkens because of the manner you hopped on the wagon. I suspected Santos for his one-lined posts and avoiding questions. Why can't I suspect people that suspect eachother? Is that against the rules?

Well technically yes, I did vote you based off elimination, but you've been on my scum-dar the whole game. You seem to be (as someone phrased it) Captain Danning. You appear to be scum-hunting, but all the while you are diverting attention awhile from yourself just so noone notices what scum you are.

Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:40 am
Vote: Einlanzers
For me voting no lynch.

Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:13 am
Unvote: Einlanzers
After I "claimed"

Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:13 am
Vote: Lupo El Loco (now Head_Honcho)
OMGUS to get Lupo talking

Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:40 pm
Unvote: Head_Honcho
Vote: Santos
Put the wagon to L-1 for Santos.

Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:09 pm
Unvote: Santos
After Santos made a post he removed his vote.

Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:56 am
Vote: Santos
VP asked jammer about his vote and he swapped.

Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:30 am
Vote: Porkens
After Porkens claimed cop jammer jumped on him.

Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:17 am
unvote
Takes his vote off of Porkens to "rethink" things. And has been "focusing" on me since.

[Einlanzers]

Well have fun lynching me and having yourself get NKed, Vino.
That will leave:
1 unconfirmed scum
2 unconfirmed town
Chances of winning in that scenario are quite minimal :/

[Einlanzers]

Vanilla Town (repeat)

[Einlanzers]

Ein--

Again very defensive of everything directed at him, could just be the beginner in him. Also, I didn't see anything else on your vote on Jammer, do you still believe them to be scum?

Most Scummy--
Porkens
Jammer
Ein
Santos
Lupo
Least Scummy/but still possible scum

Everyone else

To me this makes jammer less-likely to be scum as he's directly questioning my opinions about him AND he's very high on his list of suspects. This could just be very clever reverse psychology on HV's part...so I'm still unsure :/

[Einlanzers]

Jammer

Is very defensive over votes when called out about them

Can you quote where I was overdefensive with Eins vote on me?
If you mean Lupo, I didn't vote him for voting me.

Your tactic discussed in POST 31 doesn't seem like a very good one to me, and would wayyy anti-town in eyes. (You mention Lynch all Liars...wouldn't that mean that you should be the sure the lynch?)

EM=/=forum mafia, and gambits aren't completely unknown to forum mafia.

The thing that peeves me the most is your want of a claim for Ein, (which you ultimately got)...Revealing any kind of power role on day one is a big anti-town move in my eyes.

If I check back there is a time where I ask for a claim. He was at L-1 and at that time was scummy as hell and added nothing of importence. You think the asking for a claim was unneeded at that time?

Lupo--

My main thing against you is that you seem to not agree with discussion, which I think is the most important weapon for the town. What other ways do you suggest we go about to find scum?

As he is replaced I think we get a completely different player. That will change something.

If I see your scummy list, I see Lupo pretty low on that list and I don't even see Clara on that list. Do you think Lupo/Clara are not scummy at all?

Hurleys van
1) Budying with Santos
2) The vote hope from Porkens->Santos

I putted in votes with Santos. So far from the truth.
You want an order? I can try and give one.
1) Santos
2) Clara
3) Porkens
4) HV

These points all make the link between HV and jammer quite weak. It really looks to me that jammer is towny now though so I'm going to

Unvote

[Einlanzers]

Santos--

Not to much...Just that once you were being addressed for you lack of posting you quickly changed styles and really picked up the pace...Whats you normal style of play what we saw earlier or what we saw later? Your jump onto the Eins wagons seemed the most opportunistic.

That is some fine commentary to place Santos in the exact middle of your town scumlist. Hehe, sorry HV, but if Santos is scum at this point, your quippy rapport with him will surely be your undoing.

are we serious? People keep citing "hammer ein and be a town hero", do we not realize that was a joke? Did we not see the context? Why are we talking about ein as an undisputed townie just because he didn't get lynched?

Porkens case makes little to no sense. I'd prefer to see santos strung up just because that's the way we're going, but chia's just posting so fishy that that I would almost rather lynch him. He keeps throwing out these vague claims about which bandwagon is scummier, and is hedging his bets to lynch anyone (i.e. omg I would lynch 4 people! post). Additionally, I don't know, I get the feeling he's just being careful while trying to get his foot in the door on every possible lynch. I especially didn't like when he popped in and told Jammer how much he liked his posting, especially when jammer flips wagons in almost the same manner porkens did, but chia disregarded it because... He seemed less convinced of the lynch in the first place?

This is ridiculous. Santos, you didn't remove your vote because Ein posted, you removed it beforehand because you caught flack. You keep twisting the facts and I want to lynch you so hard. If santos flips town, I think chia is probably scum. I suppose I'm slightly biased, but I find it suspicious that Santos is acting so scummy yet people are reluctant to hammer him. I may have mentioned earlier that I didn't necessarily think scum was on the bandwagon, and that's because I'm slightly worried that Santos is just a really scummy looking townie so people want to be able to go 'drat!' tomorrow and wash their hands of his lynch. I must know his role though.

Ending slop post.

My suspicions right now actually fall closer to Hurley's van though. His whole game has been bothering me, but something about his last post especially has made me especially suspicious. He makes this fairly biased analysis of our options with the worst reasoning for why we should lynch porkens today. Scum is somehow in a better position if we lynch porkens tomorrow instead of today

Ein and HV are both accusing him of squirming or trying to confuse the town right now

As for his votes on you and Ein, I realize that both of you are voting him. And yes, so is HV. I could easily see a townie thinking Ein or HV are scum, I'm leaning that way myself! I could also see a cop feeling a bit like scum were trying to railroad him if they claimed and then you voted them in response. You're saying his case is bad because he is scum instead of critiquing the actual case.

I mean, come on, HV's reaction to 'people need to be posting' is "I don't think we're getting anywhere".

Between his attacks on HV and his "savings" on Porkens he appears really townie to me. So all that's left is Col. Cathart. I'm going to review his game aswell if he comes up clean I'll have to say GG as I would have no idea on who to vote :/

[Einlanzers]

OK so I found jack squat on Col. Cathart (really one way or the other), BUT I did find some interesting posts from Claramata (who he replaced):

Post 19 VP-->Porken
Post 20 Clara-->Cartza
Post 22 Ein--> No Lynch
Post 24 jam--> Vote Einlanzers
Post 28 Lup--> Jammer
Post 33 Ein--> Jam
Post 39 Pork-->Lupo
Post 41 Santos-->Lupo
Post 54 Clara--> Unvote Cartza Vote Ein
Post 59 Pork --> Unvote Lupo, Vote Ein
Post 71 Ein --> Unvote Jam, Vote Johnny
Post 95 Santos--> Unvote Lupo Vote Ein
Post 148 Pork--> Unvote Ein Vote Santos
Post 159 jam---> Unvote Ein Vote Lupo
Post 178 head--> Vote Santos

This is very helpful sir! It's good to see all the votes to that point laid out like that. I didn't realize that Lupo immediately jumped in with a Jammer vote right after Ein voted, and if I remember correctly there wasn't much content behind that post. But then again, we were also still kind of in the Random Voting stage so I don't know what to make of it.

Santos is kind of fishy for his push on Ein to claim. What if he's a power role? And in a setup like this, where there might not even be power roles (I believe one of the setups in this semi-open game is completely vanillia), everyone but scum could just be townie, and that would make claiming useless. At this stage, in this game, it's probably better to rely on looking at what people say and how they vote than actually getting a claim.

@ Jammer...

Firstly, you seem quite certain the Clara is scum, seeing as every possible scum-pair you've proposed to me she is a member of.

Hurleys_Van, you took the words right out of my mouth. I would also like to see the answer to this question, Jammer.

She seems to have taken a fondness towards HV here and makes me VERY suspicious of Col. Cathart.

Vote: Col. Cathart

[Einlanzers]

Vino,
Sure it is MORE likely that the scum stayed on the Porkens wagon, but who's to say that we don't have smart scum that want a clean record? Assuming you do go forward with your plan and jammer is also town then you will lose this game for us. Why play based of assumptions of one vote when you can review interactions of the entire game. After reading all of the alive players interactions with HV and Porkens (besides Vino) I have this list of scumminess:
1) Col. Cathart - You are still my #1 because I don't see how you not hammering a cop makes you 100% town. I'm sorry I'm using your predecessor as my main influence here, but it's the most scummy thing I've found so far.
2) jammer - Pretty much the same things Vino is listing (was on Porkens train and didn't assist with HV lynching).
3) H_H - He's last on my list because after reading his entire game I found quite a number of posts of him attacking HV (not to mention him voting to have him lynched [which yes CC did aswell]).

So I guess if you are 100% on lynching me please please please lynch Col. Cathart or jammer next. I still think CC is scummier than jammer, but I guess that'll be you and H_H's decision tomorrow.

[Einlanzers]

About bussing: As I stated previously, throwing your scum partner under the bus is possible. However, if I would really be a scum, that wouldn't be throwing HV under the bus. No, that would be constructing the bus, telling people to get in, driving it, slamming into the wall of HV's house and smashing him, while he was having spaghetti for a dinner.

I just wanted to quote that for humor. I like it .

@Col.Cathart:
What exactly (please show me ALL points) makes me scummy?
Is there an interaction between HV and I that you thought was buddy-buddy? Or did you think that I was purposefully avoiding him or what?

[Einlanzers]

I'm sorry to hear that, Col.Cathart. I hope that you are OK. Take as much time as you need (I don't speak for the mod when I say this though :/).

[Einlanzers]

I don't think it's not fitting with his play style.

GWAH? That double negative throws me for a loop? So you think that me sitting on a cop wagon is my play style? So then why would you vote for me? I'm a bit confused there. In any case besides me pushing for a Porkens lynch since Day 1 and sticking to my guns what other reasons do I appear scummy for?

[Einlanzers]

I feel the same way, H_H. Minus the part about me being scum . Anyways what main reasons do you have H_H? And when you guys do lynch me (which will most likely happen), please look at CC and jammer in-depth (in that order please).

[Einlanzers]

GG everyone. And good scum-hunting CC.