Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[Hurleys_Van]

@ Col.

Yes just a typo please disregard it. =)

[Head_Honcho]

Interesting, now you find the Santos wagon inherently scummy. Why is that? You had cited before how you thought Santos was a townie, but you had pretty much said you were fine with his lynch day one, and at the least did nothing to discourage the wagon. You've never actually said what you didn't like about the Santos wagon, so I am dying to hear it.

[Chiarosicada]

Apologies; I've hit a busy patch again. I should be able to post tomorrow.

[Porkens]

I still think Porkens is the best candidate. The only issue I'm confused on is if Porkens is scum why he would say that Chia is town (if Chia really is town). I guess we will see :/.

What guesses can you make about this?


And as to my question in 571?

[Einlanzers]

@Porkens
I guess I misread it at first. I thought you were asking others if me saying

that

(570) was a scum tell.

As for someone squirming to stay alive. As I've posted twice before...no. It just means that you want to stay alive. That can be town or scum. I myself was squirming/whining/etc to stay alive at the beginning of the game.

In short,
I was saying that I'm not sure that you're scum. I'm just sure that you have self-preservation in mind .

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 2.6

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Porkens: 3: Hurleys_Van (3), Einlanzers (5), jammer (7)
jammer: 1: Head_Honcho (9)
Einlanzers: 1: Porkens (10)

Not voting: Chiarosicada, Col.Cathart

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Currently Porkens would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 3:00 PM EDT/12:00 PM PDT on Tuesday, July 28th.

Mod Note: As a reminder, the deadline is less than a week away now, next Tuesday.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Col.Cathart]

Ein: You didn't answer HH's question about Santos wagon, and I'm actually very curious about your answer... In my opinion, there's absolutely no solid evidence, that both scum were hiding in this wagon, especially considering Santos behavior...

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think, maybe we should give Porkens a chance with his claim. But before it'll happen, I would like to see rest of his analysis.

Also, I'm more and more suspicious of Hurleys Van. Apart from things HH pointed out, he posts rarely, usually only after prod, or after someone will call him out. And those answers are usually 'My point stands' + one or two extra thoughts. Looks like active lurking in my opinion.

[Einlanzers]

I didn't realize HH's post was about me. As it doesn't seem to be talking about me :/

Interesting, now you find the Santos wagon inherently scummy. Why is that? You had cited before how you thought Santos was a townie, but you had pretty much said you were fine with his lynch day one, and at the least did nothing to discourage the wagon. You've never actually said what you didn't like about the Santos wagon, so I am dying to hear it.

I've stated before that there is a very good chance of there being 1 scum on the wagon and a fairly good chance of there being 2. This isn't something new...

I never said I was fine with his lynch. If you are talking to me... I said that I found him slightly scummy, but I had never claimed lynching Santos would be beneficial..if I was fine with it, I would have switched wagons and hammered him.

I didn't do EVERYTHING I could to protect Santos because I wasn't positive he was town. I did try to get people on the Porkens wagon because I felt (and still do) that he is quite scummy.

What I didn't like about the Santos wagon? It was a wagon driven on little gas. So the guy didn't post a lot of content (sounds like someone else I know...). So the guy was sarcastic (again...ding). So he was singling out another person (*DING*DING*). Besides these claims I don't see anything scum about him... So that leads me to believe his wagon was filled with scum and a couple naive townies.

[jammer]

I'd like to hear something from Chia before I start posting more thoughs. HV can post in the meantime to, btw.

[Head_Honcho]

I never said I was fine with his lynch. If you are talking to me... I said that I found him slightly scummy, but I had never claimed lynching Santos would be beneficial..if I was fine with it, I would have switched wagons and hammered him.

I didn't do EVERYTHING I could to protect Santos because I wasn't positive he was town. I did try to get people on the Porkens wagon because I felt (and still do) that he is quite scummy.

I'm glad I have another chance to bring this up!

I think we were on the right track with Porkens/Santos. Now that it's falling apart though it makes HH look quite scummy with a partner of Porkens/Santos.

I didn't ask why you didn't do everything you could to protect Santos, so how about answering the question I asked. You did nothing, you never stated you thought he was a townie until he was lynched. At one point towards the end of the day you had porkens jammer and santos as your top three.

Do you see why it confuses me a little bit that you're now claiming you were pretty sure Santos was a townie?

What I didn't like about the Santos wagon? It was a wagon driven on little gas. So the guy didn't post a lot of content (sounds like someone else I know...). So the guy was sarcastic (again...ding). So he was singling out another person (*DING*DING*). Besides these claims I don't see anything scum about him... So that leads me to believe his wagon was filled with scum and a couple naive townies.

... The day one Porkens wagon was based on a joke that had been misinterpreted. Hey, who are you talking about there btw in case it isn't obvious? Also, it looks like you're at best oversimplifying the case to basically make the people on it look worse, but really you're completely misrepresenting it. Naive townies eh? I guess that makes you Columbo. So I'm confused why you didn't try to communicate some of this yesterday.

For instance, when I unvoted Santos at the end of day one, you accused me of trying to stir up the waters to save my partner. Why did you do that instead of agreeing with the townie read of Santos I was vainly trying to communicate?

[Head_Honcho]

And yeah, fellas, need more posting.

[Porkens]

Well, we are getting reletively close to deadline. I feel pretty confident in Lazer's swinging. But HV would be fine too.

If I've provided an inno, that's an easy target for the scum. I'd suggest protecting me if there is a doc, but that goes without saying. in any case.

[Head_Honcho]

I would not suggest protecting Porkens unless we hit scum today, I would say protect chia.

[Hurleys_Van]

I don't think were getting anywhere....

[Einlanzers]

@HH
I was referring to Porkens in my *DING*DING*s. Also I never stated that I knew Santos was town. I only stated that I thought he was not the best candidate for a lynch as of yesterday. If you read otherwise please let me know.

To reiterate: I'm not claiming that I knew Santos was town. I didn't "convey that he was town yesterday" because I didn't know that he was for sure until he was, in fact, lynched.

And the whole "Naive" thing was in reference to townies hopping on the wagon and being strung along with the scum. Porkens was lurking a lot more and when he did post it was of less content than Santos and some of Porkens' voting was a bit suspicious (in my books). So that made him a much better candidate.

[Head_Honcho]

I know you never stated you knew Santos was town, my problem is you never stated you thought he was town. Also, apparently you're trying to use what you didn't like about the Santos wagon to.. Further the Porkens wagon? You're basically saying 'these were worthless points against Santos, but DING they apply to Porkens too!'. Additionally, they weren't really the points against Santos, nobody wanted to lynch him for being sarcastic. And I don't know if anybody's accusing Porkens of tunneling... If anything it's more that he's bandwagoning.

Though, I don't know why I'm banging my head against the wall here. What it comes down to is that you're lying. You basically called me scum yesterday when I was saying I was uneasy about lynching Santos. You open today with this post:

The Santos wagon looks awfully scummy now:
Porkens (15), VP Baltar (18), jammer (25), Col.Cathart (30), Head_Honcho (31)
And with VP out of the picture that just leaves:
Porkens, jammer, Col. Cathart, and Head_Honcho.

I assume at least one of those is scum (if not 2). And seeing as CC and HH were the last 2 to vote on him make them the most suspicious in my books. The last thing we need right now is another mislynch. I'm glad that I was correct in my assumptions of Santos being town, but saddened that he was mislynched :/.

Which seems to contrast slightly with one of your last posts of day one:

New list:
1) Porkens
2) jammer
3) Santos

It worries me that you refuse to answer for this inconsistency.

I don't think were getting anywhere....

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: Prodding Chiarosicada.

There are currently just over 51 hours until deadline.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chiarosicada]

I'm very sorry to have to ask this, but please replace me.

[Head_Honcho]

hurk, bad time for the game to fall off a cliff. post post post post post

I'm going to

unvote

, it was never really much of a case anyway

[jammer]

Jam: I simply think it makes more sense as town than as scum. We've been after him for bandwagoning and flying under the radar, and in my eyes he has acceptably explained both of those. I can understand why a post like 'scummy on purpose' would immediately grab your attention, but I think there is more to consider here.

As earlier said, it is wifom.

He wouldn't play this way as scum so he is cop.

It is also opposing Ockham Razor, you have to assume he did an act. That he gambitted as cop, to get suspicious and being voted without being lynched. Your explaination he would've planned this as scum from the beginning, is the same for a real cop. You'd have to assume as a cop there is no doc from the start?(also 50%) You could get doc-protection and surviving with acting pro-town.
Short: You're overthinking this way much. And you keep repeating the same thing over and over. This point is not going to change my mind as I opposed it earlier, why are you repeating it?

With that, I've heard no explaination, when at the time Porkens became the main lynch target for this day, he kept playing the same. Why didn't he stop the forced claim?

Ein and HV are both accusing him of squirming or trying to confuse the town right now, but he's simply following through on our request for his reads, I don't get why they're choosing to try to forward his case with points like that. Basically now he is scum for defending himself and answering our questions? I thought he was scum for not doing that.

Actually, I agree with the confusing stand. Porkens has switched votes between me and Ein. Focussing attention on anyone who votes him. Scum trying to move suspicion on anyone who is voting him, and avoid a lynch that way, imo.

Also, why'd you feel the need to defend Porkens?

Btw, with older post-quotes. Could you give a post number. I'd like to be able to recheck in what context quotes are taken.

Ein and HV can post, please. Awaiting the response of Ein from HH and the replacement of Chia.

[Head_Honcho]

I'm not thinking real clearly right now, and I seem to be having a hard time wrapping my head around some of what you're saying, so let me know if I've completely missed the point on any of this...

Jam: I simply think it makes more sense as town than as scum. We've been after him for bandwagoning and flying under the radar, and in my eyes he has acceptably explained both of those. I can understand why a post like 'scummy on purpose' would immediately grab your attention, but I think there is more to consider here.

As earlier said, it is wifom.

He wouldn't play this way as scum so he is cop.

Well, that's not really what I said. I said I think it makes more sense as town than as scum. You had asked me how getting yourself outed as cop was a townie strategy and I don't think it's as black and white as that. Your labeling of this as wifom is kind of unfair, as the next logical step is to consider 'okay, now why does this make more sense as a scum strategy?'.

It is also opposing Ockham Razor, you have to assume he did an act. That he gambitted as cop, to get suspicious and being voted without being lynched. Your explaination he would've planned this as scum from the beginning, is the same for a real cop. You'd have to assume as a cop there is no doc from the start?(also 50%) You could get doc-protection and surviving with acting pro-town.

Hopefully I'm not contradicting myself here, but I don't necessarily think of this as a 'cop gambit', or that he was trying to draw votes to himself. I think of it more as somewhere between lazy play falling back on the investigation mechanic and trying not to garner attention from the scum, which I think adheres to Occam's Razor considerably more than the theory that he decided from the beginning to bet his survival this game on a coin flip.

This is where you've lost me. It's not the same

at all

as cop as it is as scum. Do you not get how it's a gamble to assume as scum there is no real cop and how it's safe to play your cop assuming there is no doc?

Short: You're overthinking this way much. And you keep repeating the same thing over and over. This point is not going to change my mind as I opposed it earlier, why are you repeating it?

Um, well, as for the repetition, you had asked me a question and that was my response. I guess you should make it more obvious if your questions are purely rhetorical.

What do you mean when you say I'm overthinking this?

With that, I've heard no explaination, when at the time Porkens became the main lynch target for this day, he kept playing the same. Why didn't he stop the forced claim?

I would like to hear him answer for this as well.

Ein and HV are both accusing him of squirming or trying to confuse the town right now, but he's simply following through on our request for his reads, I don't get why they're choosing to try to forward his case with points like that. Basically now he is scum for defending himself and answering our questions? I thought he was scum for not doing that.

Actually, I agree with the confusing stand. Porkens has switched votes between me and Ein. Focussing attention on anyone who votes him. Scum trying to move suspicion on anyone who is voting him, and avoid a lynch that way, imo.

Well, he had listed Ein as his #2 suspect when he(porkens) voted me, so it's not like that's new. Also, you mentioned before my fallacious logic, but here you're basically saying his case on Ein is bad because he's scum.

Also, why'd you feel the need to defend Porkens?

Well, initially I liked the sensfan replacement angle, plus we had some time to discuss and I thought it was important we use that time. I'm glad we did too because I'm actually thinking now there's a fair chance porkens is a cop.

Btw, with older post-quotes. Could you give a post number. I'd like to be able to recheck in what context quotes are taken.

Like I said, it was around the end of day 1, just look around those pages and scroll through them, it's pretty easy to find them.

[Porkens]

With that, I've heard no explaination, when at the time Porkens became the main lynch target for this day, he kept playing the same. Why didn't he stop the forced claim?


I would like to hear him answer for this as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Look at it this way: I was ignoring the game, fully knowing that I was accruing scum points, in order to survive the night. I was heartbroken that I got an innocent report. I came out becase I knew I had dug my hole too deep to recover with any expediency. It's obvious that the scum are Ein and Jammer or Hurley's at this point. so obvious that I'm not worried about being around or getting any other cop reports.

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: I'm finding a replacement for Chiarosicada now. The deadline will be extended to 72 hours past when that replacement is found. If someone gets lynched before I find a replacement then the night will last at least 24 hours past when I find one during the night phase.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jammer]

Well, that's not really what I said. I said I think it makes more sense as town than as scum. You had asked me how getting yourself outed as cop was a townie strategy and I don't think it's as black and white as that. Your labeling of this as wifom is kind of unfair, as the next logical step is to consider 'okay, now why does this make more sense as a scum strategy?'.

I can recall you saying earlier it didn't made sense as mafia. And ofcourse it makes more sense from town-position if it wouldn't make sense as mafia. That was how I looked at that. And I referred to wifom, becouse it is. And I think it is far-fetched.

Hopefully I'm not contradicting myself here, but I don't necessarily think of this as a 'cop gambit', or that he was trying to draw votes to himself. I think of it more as somewhere between lazy play falling back on the investigation mechanic and trying not to garner attention from the scum, which I think adheres to Occam's Razor considerably more than the theory that he decided from the beginning to bet his survival this game on a coin flip.

This is where you've lost me. It's not the same

at all

as cop as it is as scum. Do you not get how it's a gamble to assume as scum there is no real cop and how it's safe to play your cop assuming there is no doc?

Short: You're overthinking this way much. And you keep repeating the same thing over and over. This point is not going to change my mind as I opposed it earlier, why are you repeating it?

Um, well, as for the repetition, you had asked me a question and that was my response. I guess you should make it more obvious if your questions are purely rhetorical.

What do you mean when you say I'm overthinking this?

As for the repetition, do you follow me if that wasn't exactly the anwser I was looking for? I wasn't asking why he would stay under the radar, more why he kept doing it when pressure was pilling up D2.

About your overthinking. Let state this simple. Your way of thinking.
a) Porkens is lazy cop.
b) Porkens is mafia and planned this from the start.
while you seem to forget,
c) Porkens is lazy mafia.
d) Porkens is cop and planned this from the start.

Option C, is pretty applicable, more then A in any case. Mafia aren't interested in finding scum, also don't care much who is lynched. You assume a pro-town role that doesn't seem to care whoever he lynches. And ignores any suspicions thrown on him? More mafia then town in any way I view it.

D was countering B. As I though he planned this play. I can continue on it, but mafia not claiming cop becouse they have 50% odds of countering. is normal.. This is your main point why scum-porkens wouldn't play like this and claim cop. Yes, I think he would be.

Well, he had listed Ein as his #2 suspect when he(porkens) voted me, so it's not like that's new. Also, you mentioned before my fallacious logic, but here you're basically saying his case on Ein is bad because he's scum.

Er, no. Referring to his vote on me and later Ein. He is voting who votes him. He is trying to put suspicion on me and Ein. And also goes easyly along with a HV lynch. Anyone who is on the wagon is fine with him. Can we lynch him already?

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: Vino replaces Chiarosicada. The deadline for day one is now moved back to 4:00 PM EDT/ 1:00 PM PDT on Thursday, July 30.

Thank you Vino!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh