Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Hero764]

Vote: Feeres

because no one else has.

[Hero764]

Vote: Feeres

because no one else has.

Are you scared of placing a second vote on somebody?

It seems pretty unnecessary at this point, and I didn't want to "threaten" anyone.

[Hero764]

Nope. I know you have no legitimate concern to vote me at this point. Wheras if I have put someone else at L-3 they might've thought I suspected them or something. It was just a concern, doesn't matter much =/. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with all of this though.

[Hero764]

Why would somebody think that you suspect them? If Tenchi has no legitimate concern to vote you, do you have a legitimate concern to vote somebody?

No I don't. And what does it matter if I don't want to put a second vote on someone? =/

[Hero764]

So will it make you feel better if I put a second vote on someone?

I never said it was dangerous, just that it wasn't necessary.

[Hero764]

Vote: Hero764 because I am with the general opinion that he is a mobster.

Artem makes up the whole general opinion, eh? You seem pretty quick to target me once someone accuses me of something.

unvote

Vote: CJMiller

I never said you said it was dangerous. Razz

You said you didn't want to "threaten" anyone. Now you're wanting to do something just to make another player feel better.

Why are you so cautious about not stepping on anybody's toes?

(Too early to say anything with certainty, but one theory is that you're mafia and don't want to draw anybody's votes/attention.)

Well my plan certainly failed then didn't it? Razz I'm really not trying to be cautious, I was just giving a reason for my meaningless vote like everyone else.

[Hero764]

]Well my plan certainly failed then didn't it? I'm really not trying to be cautious, I was just giving a reason for my meaningless vote like everyone else.

Fixed the smiley =/.

[Hero764]

My issue is that your vote seemed to be built on bad logic rather than it was meaningless, and the fact that you defended it saying that you "don't want to threaten anyone".

Alright, that was my bad I guess. I shouldn't have tried to defend a meaningless vote. I'm not too experienced at this game(its actually my first game on this site), so its just me taking your initial question a bit too seriously.

(and now watch this post be called overdefensive )

[Hero764]

@Hero: On mafiascum, you can expect being overly cautious to draw attention.

Yep, I can see that. Like I said, my mistake for taking the question too seriously, I wasn't really trying to be too cautious.

As for CJMiller - obviously the highest on my scum list, as I have my vote on him. I'm interested to see how he defends himself when he comes back. His voting for me could simply be a newbie thinking that as town, an IC would make the best choice, and so he followed it.

There isn't enough info in the game yet for me to really suspect anyone else. No one seems to be a definite town or scum yet.

[Hero764]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. This post by Tenchi kinda raised my eyebrows:

[quote=Tenchi]OMG THAT IS SO SCVUMMY !!!!!!11eleven [/quote]

At first he was really pressuring me to get some info and stuff, and then, as if he was just waiting for me to say something so he could end the little 'campaign' of his. It just seemed odd, as I certainly didn't expect him to reply to my post with a simple joke. I dunno what this implies though, just something I found interesting that maybe should be discussed.

[Hero764]

And I suck at quote tags:

Oh yeah, and one more thing. This post by Tenchi kinda raised my eyebrows:

OMG THAT IS SO SCVUMMY !!!!!!11eleven

At first he was really pressuring me to get some info and stuff, and then, as if he was just waiting for me to say something so he could end the little 'campaign' of his. It just seemed odd, as I certainly didn't expect him to reply to my post with a simple joke. I dunno what this implies though, just something I found interesting that maybe should be discussed.

Fixed.

[Hero764]

Or to start a discussion that will be pointless since it was fueled by an interpretation of humor.

Only one section of my post was humor related, and you completely ignored the rest of my post, and simply ended the whole thing using a reply to my last little bit in parenthesis.

[Hero764]

Another thing:

I think that is a

desperate

attempt to paint me in a bad way.

What was so desperate about my post?

[Hero764]

Now that you're here CJMiller, I think you should answer the questions asked of you .

And L-2 means the person is 2 votes away from getting lynched.

[Hero764]

Another thing:

I think that is a

desperate

attempt to paint me in a bad way.

What was so desperate about my post?

OK Then. Let's discuss the 1001 possibilities why I reacted that way to your post. (In other words, pursuing a discussion like that is nonsense. And suspecting me for it is I feel, DESPERATE)

Wow, you really read through my post didn't you? When, in that entire post, did I say I suspected you of being scum in the slightest. I was just bringing up the fact that I found the post interesting, nothing more. It seems like you over reacted this time. And voting me because I allegedly suspect you? OMGUS much?

[Hero764]

That's simply how you interpreted it. And how exactly would that cover the tracks? I think the people in this thread are smart enough to discuss more than one thing at once.

Also:

cover the tracks of other scummy things happening.

Such as what, exactly?

[Hero764]

in the meantime, unvote, vote feeres.

Your explanation would make sense if you had random voted and then later switched to an FoS. But you random voted in the same post in which you expressed suspicion of someone. This doesn't add up. Not sure if it is scummier for you to have voted, but it seems like you are trying to avoid suspicion yourself, yet setting up a future CJ vote. Smells fishy.

You've got to be kidding. There's nothing wrong with Feeres' post at all, I don't see where people are getting that from. And how is putting FoS on someone scummy in the slightest? He generated a random number, it matched CJMiller, and then when he read through the thread he realized he didn't want to place another vote on CJMiller(which he explained) so he didn't. After reading through the thread however, he realized he was still suspicious of CJMiller's behavior(as others are) so put an FoS on him. It's as simple as that.

I think Hero is acting suspicious because when people act like he's acting, they're hiding something.

You really suck at explanations, you know?

To my knowledge FOS does absolutely nothing except mean that you're looking at somebody closely. And random votes are specifically used to get discussion going. So therefore FOSing somebody as a substitute to random voting is just scummy. Random Voting is used to start discussions. If for some reason you don't want to random vote you should discuss the current random votes and whats going on. Placing a FOS on somebody as a substitute makes no sense! Maybe I could have understood it if you had given some reasons why. Yet placing a FOS just because you were randomly told to do so. That just adds pressure unnecesarily, and for apparently no real reason.

You badly misinterpreted his post I think. Read my explanation above.

[Hero764]

As I specificaly said in my post. Instead of voting (which would have been ridiculously scummy, as in only a stupid person would do) for CJ miller, he instead FOS'd him, and as you can see when I quoted him. He did not list a reason aside from "This would have been my random vote" And as I said, since random voting is used to make discusion. FOSing somebody already random voted without giving a reason is completely useless.

Well that could simply be a mistake/posting error. He probably found the reasons already stated to be enough for grounds of his suspicion, but not enough to place a vote(which he did state). I'm willing to bet he just forget to include that in his post/thought it wasn't necessary. It shouldn't point to him being scum.

Why did he bother to generate the random number if he found someone suspicious? I never said placing an FoS on someone is "scummy". That is a bold misrepresentation of why I am voting for Feeres at the moment. Also, please let him answer to this for himself. What reason do you have to defend Feeres?

Of course I'm going to let him answer it himself, I'm just trying to understand your logic here. And I think you missed the part where he said he generated the random number BEFORE reading the thread:

[quote="Feeres"

]I "randomly voted" CJMiller before reading the thread, then I read through what had been posted earlie

r. So I changed my vote to FoS because he was my random vote target, and he had already votes on him which weren't exactly random. I only suspect him of being newbie atm, before he posts more I'm saying he's like 50-50 scum.

I specifically held off from voting him randomly because of other votes on him. A bit offtopic question, is there some recommended way of randomly voting? Like, pick a random target from the list, check he hasn't gotten votes yet, if he has been voted already then find someone else?[/quote]

[Hero764]

It isn't about a hidden motive, it's the logical/probably motive. I'm not defending him, he could be scum for all I know, but not because of the reasons you guys are suggesting. Those just seem over the top and a bit ridiculous imo.

And I love how every time I do something except stay quiet someone else accuses me of being scummy.

[Hero764]

Whoops, missed the bottom part of your post. Anyways, he said 50-50 scum, so its half both ways. And its not like he voted for CJMiller. I agree that his posts are a bit confusing, but I can't see how that connects to him being scum.

[Hero764]

Hero: Did I say you were scum? I just think it strange that you are going to bat for someone like this. You are interpreting his posts as though he is incapable of untruths. Have you asked why he didn't generate another random vote? Have you questioned his timeline?

You didn't say I was scum, but hockey did, which is who that was directed at. And what the hell? Generate another random. What kind of info is that going to get us? I'll ask him though if it makes you feel better. Not sure what you mean about the timeline, it seems fine to me.

Anyways, Feeres: Why didn't you simply generate another random vote if you didn't want to land another one on CJMiller? You can vote and use the FoS at the same time, you know?

[Hero764]

@Hockey: WIFOM stands for Wine in Front of Me. I can't explain it very well, so you're best to have a look at the wiki page.

And Feeres you missed my question

[Hero764]

FOS Feeres because what goes around comes around

You're just being ridiculous now. Your explanations suck, you're openly OMGUSing, it's like you're trying to give people a reason to vote for you.

[Hero764]

CJMiller is being way too confusing, I can't tell if he's being obvious scum or just a really inexperienced newbie.

I think I'm going to reread through the thread.

[Hero764]

I think a day should be only one week instead of 3.

I also think anyone who hasn't voted yet should vote now.

I think you should do some explaining for yourself considering how close you are to being lynched.

[Hero764]

Shit is that the hammer? What the hell guys?

[Hero764]

Lol, I would've unvoted when I saw you put him at L-1, Tenchi got there too fast. You said it yourself he probably wasn't mafia, and I can't see us getting any info now. That was more directed at Tenchi though I guess. We aren't even a week into the game and he goes and does that. Hell, two of the players have barely even posted yet. I was still waiting to see kuch's response to Feeres and how Toledo/Slaine analyzed the players and such. It was just far too early imo.

[Hero764]

Alright, bad day 1. Lynching CJMiller was entirely not neccessary, but it was partly my fault so I won't talk much more about it. We're already down 2 townies though.

Hockeyruler (replaced atticusgresko during confirmation)
Tenchi
Feeres
Hero764
Toledo88
kikuchiyo
Slaine Hayes ^

Ok, so we know 2 of these guys are scum. Honestly, it could be anyone at this point. There isn't a single person on here who I am entirely not suspicious of(with the exception of of course, myself). I will say that in my mind Slaine Hayes looks pretty suspicious right now, but that's probably due to the fact that he's hardly posted at all. I can't really judge him properly. Tenchi and Hockey aren't looking so good either, seeing as they hammered CJ within like less than 30 minutes of eachother. I know this is probably too obvious a scum tell, but they could've been going for that, its a WIFOM right now.

[Hero764]

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

1. Could you clarify what you mean by the second part of the sentence(starting with since).

2. That's a really scummy thing to say. It is NEVER a good move to kill a townie.

[Hero764]

So, you didn't approve lynching him? Then why did you vote for him?

So he would answer the questions he was asked. If no one was voting for him he would've felt no need to answer. And no I don't approve of the lynch. There was barely any time between the L-1 vote and the hammer, which makes me suspicious of hockey and Tenchi at the moment.

With how he's acting, it's so easy to assume that he is a noob player. Town or scum I was not sure (In your post, point #2, you are assuming I knew he was town). Some people would give him a benefit of the doubt past D1 and just call him some newbie, but with the way he answered my questions, I have some strong doubts that he was town.

You said it like it was a good move even though everyone already knew he was town. How would that be a good move at all?

Whatever happened D1 or D2, I would have pushed for the lynch of CJMiller. Dealing with him is just full of WIFOM (is he new, or is he just acting?). I'd rather get it out now.

That's not what WIFOM is. And getting it out this early was a very scummy thing to do/bad mistake. We didn't have enough evidence to assume he wasn't just a noob. We still had plenty of time to decide on a lynch.

The mistake I made was ending it too soon. I'm quite surprised you are not questioning me for that.

Uhh, I have? Check post 153.

This post has caught my eye:

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful? I highly doubt hes mafia. He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

He's trying to justify killing a townie(which he then goes on to defend). This is extremely scummy, enough to warrant

FoS: Hockeyruler

[Hero764]

You said it like it was a good move even though [b.]everyone already knew he was town[/b]. How would that be a good move at all?

THIS IS A GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.

No one can be sure he was town (especially me), and with the way he was acting, I wouldn't be surprised if some people (like me) thought he could be scum.

What the hell? Are you being like this on purpose? You should know full well which post I was discussing, considering I QUOTED it in my post before, and it was in your post that I was directly responding to. For reference:

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

This was obviously posted after CJ flipped town, so explain that.

You're getting scummier every post.

[Hero764]

1. What? You already did explain yourself in the post I quoted by saying that lynching CJMiller(a townie) was a good move. Responding to my what the hell post was unneeded. And if you were responding to my earlier post why quote my other one? Quit contradicting yourself.

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up.

Vote: Tenchi

[Hero764]

1. What? You already did explain yourself in the post I quoted by saying that lynching CJMiller(a townie) was a good move. Responding to my what the hell post was unneeded. And if you were responding to my earlier post why quote my other one? Quit contradicting yourself.

1. You don't dictate what is unneeded or not.
2. I quoted the right text (see post 151).

1. I already explained why it was unneeded, so if you think it wasn't you should argue with what I said rather just say "lol can't do that!"
2. Again - why the hell are you doing this? We weren't discussing post 151 AT ALL, and you knew that full well.

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up.

Vote: Tenchi

Now this is worse. I have never said I'd rather lynch a newbie rather than lynch scum.

I said I'd rather lynch a suspicious person rather than giving them a free pass because they are new.

Your statements are a stretch. And lying over and over again does not make it true.

Vote: Hero764

[/quote]Read bold: You're still saying you'd lynch someone over scum.

I'm about 90% sure you're scum now.

@hockeyruler: My problem is that you admitted yourself that you highly doubt he's mafia, yet you go on to justify killing him anyway. The only way killing a townie would be a good move is if you are scum. The fact that you ignore this in your defense makes you look a lot worse.

CJ was posting very little and most of it was unhelpful or not thought through. This immediatly makes him look like a new player who might or might not be mafia. However, there is also the chance that he is infact a mafia simply acting that way so as to not get votes simply because he seems newbish.

But you already said you highly doubt he's in the mafia. Why are you only now bringing this up as a possibility?

I do now regret having that lynch that fast. It did lead to us not getting info. Yet I think it can honestly be argued that it had to happen sometime or other.

Why would you think that if you thought it was highly unlikely he was scum?

Tenchi and hockeyruler are looking like plausible scumbuddies ATM. I'd like to see what others have to say about all of this.

[Hero764]

1. What? You already did explain yourself in the post I quoted by saying that lynching CJMiller(a townie) was a good move. Responding to my what the hell post was unneeded. And if you were responding to my earlier post why quote my other one? Quit contradicting yourself.

1. You don't dictate what is unneeded or not.
2. I quoted the right text (see post 151).

1. I already explained why it was unneeded, so if you think it wasn't you should argue with what I said rather just say "lol can't do that!"
2. Again - why the hell are you doing this? We weren't discussing post 151 AT ALL, and you knew that full well.

2. So you're saying you would rather lynch a newbie than lynch scum?

Shit's just not adding up.

Vote: Tenchi

Now this is worse. I have never said I'd rather lynch a newbie rather than lynch scum.

I said I'd rather lynch a suspicious person rather than giving them a free pass because they are new.

Your statements are a stretch. And lying over and over again does not make it true.

Vote: Hero764

Read bold: You're still saying you'd lynch someone over scum.

I'm about 90% sure you're scum now.

REPEATING IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.

DO YOU THINK I KNEW CJMILLER WOULD TURN UP TOWNIE?

. I know that timing was wrong but I certainly didn't want to let my number one suspect just pass by.

I think here is you want me to somehow say that I was 100% sure that he's scum. He's was not. And I am not falling for it.

Vote: Hero

[/quote]You completely ignored half of my post dealing with your obvious inconsistencies and instead proceeded to freak out over one sentence, dedicating your entire post to that. I'll admit though that I misinterpreted that sentence I bolded terribly. Rereading it I see that you meant something entirely different, so I apologize for that. Still, I'd like to focus on your hammer vote a little more, since I still feel you didn't explain it very well, and I still want a response to the other half of my post.

And yes, I do think you knew CJMiller would turn up townie, hence my vote on you. And there's a major difference between letting him pass by and putting the hammer on him. Especially when it hadn't even been a half hour since he was placed at L-1.

Let's examine this post(again...):

I think the quick hammer was a mistake on my part. I thought we had all D1 discussions done. Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

1) You've played other games on this site, you should know very well that once someone gets to L-1 there's usually a discussion as for what to do about it. You barely gave anyone a chance to respond.
2) Again, IT IS NEVER A GOOD MOVE TO LYNCH A TOWNIE. Unless of course, you're scum, which you probably are.

[Hero764]

I don't think you guys (and gals ) are understanding why Tenchi and I voted the way we did.

I'm not completely sure about Tenchi, but for me it was mainly because


1. It is simply too easy for a mafia member to act this way (newbish) and so not be suspected.
2. He was being unhelpful

1. are you saying that you thought he was mafia trying cover himself up as a noob? Because that completely contradicts what you said before.

As for 2, so you're saying we should lynch any lurkers/inactive players simply because they aren't of use to us?

Also, Tenchi and Hockey, are you going to respond to the questions I asked you?

[Hero764]

Hero, you seemed rather focused on getting Tenchi at this point with such a temerity (correct me if I used that word in wrong context). You keep on saying that Tenchi voted for CJMiller with prior knowledge that he was in fact a townie. It seems that Tenchi hammered CJ because he could have just been acting. Yet you say that Tenchi knew he was town, and that Tenchi would rather kill a newbie than scum. Though Tenchi only said that he wouldn't let CJ keep on going to the endgame since he was a newb.

Focused on Tenchi? Should I let someone who's exhibiting such obvious scumminess off the hook so I lose some focus? No. Sorry I'm focused on winning the game here.

And no I don't keep saying that, go reread through our argument. And that wasn't even my only argument, did you miss the other parts of my posts?

As for 2, so you're saying we should lynch any lurkers/inactive players simply because they aren't of use to us?

I think he means one reason he voted for CJ was because CJ was more of a hindrance than help. I'm not sure there was a post by CJ that didn't make himself look more scummy or was void of point.[/quote]That was the only real reason he provided though, the first one was contradicted by an early statement he made.

[Hero764]

Also, would you care to list your suspects? We need as much discussion as possible right now.

[Hero764]

Uhh, kinda. Here's the basis:

His first post during Day 2 was what sparked the whole thing, where he said lynching CJ was a good move. Note that it was day 2 and so everyone knew CJ was town at this point, yet Tenchi still claims it was a good move. Why would lynching a townie be a good move? He then proceeds to insist that I was referring to his Day 1 post(despite me quoting his day 2 one, how on earth could you possibly miss that?). This makes him seem scummier. THEN He goes and says he was responding to my Day 1 one post. BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction. And as for me coming to the conclusion that he would rather lynch a noob than scum, read the second part of his 163 post. I admit that question was a bit rhetorical, and I was probably pushing too hard at that point. Then he starts getting pissed at me and now he's ignoring the argument. My vote is staying.

[Hero764]

...

BUT THEN WHY WOULD YOU QUOTE MY DAY 2 POST? Obvious contradiction.

...

Can you link me to this?

I find it hard to believe that you're being that unattentive in all of this. Post 156 bro:

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

1. Could you clarify what you mean by the second part of the sentence(starting with since).

2. That's a really scummy thing to say. It is NEVER a good move to kill a townie.

With how he's acting, it's so easy to assume that he is a noob player. Town or scum I was not sure (In your post, point #2, you are assuming I knew he was town). Some people would give him a benefit of the doubt past D1 and just call him some newbie, but with the way he answered my questions, I have some strong doubts that he was town.

Whatever happened D1 or D2, I would have pushed for the lynch of CJMiller. Dealing with him is just full of WIFOM (is he new, or is he just acting?). I'd rather get it out now.

The mistake I made was ending it too soon. I'm quite surprised you are not questioning me for that.

1. This is exactly why I call it a mistake. And the same reason why I expect my lynch. However, I think I have given CJMiller a LOT OF CHANCES to explain his stance properly. I was actually one of the few people who were asking him questions to help him elaborate. The big mistake there was I forgot/misread that other discussions (especially the Feeres one) was not yet done.

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

Toledo/Kikuchiyo/Hero: If I'm scum, who's my buddy?

Already answered this, but its likely hockeyruler.

[Hero764]

Toledo isn't looking very hot right now either, but there's only two scum in this game, so I'm thinking he might just be acting odd. Of course, I could be wrong. Not ruling out the possibility that he's scum at all.

[Hero764]

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

For that same reason I am expecting my lynch. Just not that soon though.

Not that soon? What the hell? You don't expect to be lynched this round, but next round? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

Feeres I'd like to know why you think Hockeyruler is probably scum when his actions say otherwise(see some of my earlier posts).

[Hero764]

You can't just pass things off as a mistake. I'm inclined to believe you're scum because of all of this and all you do is "whoops, sorry."

For that same reason I am expecting my lynch. Just not that soon though.

Not that soon? What the hell? You don't expect to be lynched this round, but next round? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this?

Oh god, you'd really jump on anything won't you. :\

See post 182.

What did you mean by 'not that soon' then?

Are you saying that you want people to lynch you(in post 182)? If you're town that's not being pro-town at all, is it? You're basically telling us to force ourselves in LyLo.

[Hero764]

I said Hockeyruler was probably town (see my earlier post). Why did you think I thought he was probably scum?

I meant to ask why you thought he was probably town. Sorry about that.

This was post 184, can you specify which questions? I didn't see any directed at me that I haven't already answered.

Why the hell are you and Tenchi acting like this? DID YOU MISS THE TWO QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU IN THE POST YOU QUOTED?

As for what I was referring to in 184, post 170:

@hockeyruler: My problem is that you admitted yourself that you highly doubt he's mafia, yet you go on to justify killing him anyway. The only way killing a townie would be a good move is if you are scum. The fact that you ignore this in your defense makes you look a lot worse.

CJ was posting very little and most of it was unhelpful or not thought through. This immediatly makes him look like a new player who might or might not be mafia. However, there is also the chance that he is infact a mafia simply acting that way so as to not get votes simply because he seems newbish.

But you already said you highly doubt he's in the mafia. Why are you only now bringing this up as a possibility?

:
I do now regret having that lynch that fast. It did lead to us not getting info. Yet I think it can honestly be argued that it had to happen sometime or other.

Why would you think that if you thought it was highly unlikely he was scum?

And hero, at this point your going after Tenchi is just getting ridiculous, you've stated everysingle argument by now, and hes stated everysingle counterargument. At this point you're just going around in circles. So now you're trying to put words in his mouth or something like that. Its just a bit ridicuous.

Could you possibly a more obvious scumbuddy? I'm not going to explain myself again, read post 189. Basically, his counterarguments have sucked, and he seems to have purposely unattentive to our discussion.

[Hero764]

Unattentive to what discussion?

The irony is astounding.

The one we had at the start of day 2, silly.

[Hero764]

Only a mafia would want a townie dead -
Prior to CJ's lynch, we didn't know for certain if CJ was townie. At that point, CJ had posted mainly stuff which would just mess up the logic which the town could use when analyzing votes etc. So, no, I don't think that only mafia would want to kill a townie.

THE MORE TOWNIES WE KILL THE CLOSER WE GET TO LOSING. If you are pretty sure they are town, then voting to lynch them is just fucking being a bad player(unless you were mafia).

Hockey hammered CJ fast -
I don't think he would actually know at the time of his vote that there would be a hammer coming in 30 mins.

What does the time have to do with anything? When you put someone at L-1, you are saying that it is ok for someone to come in and hammer them.

[Hero764]

Unattentive to what discussion?

The irony is astounding.

The one we had at the start of day 2, silly.

How am I unattentive to that? Can you site me an instance of being unattentive, maybe two?

This is ridiculous.
1) You forgot that quoted my day 2 post but then said you were responding to my day 1 post(post 192).

2) You quoted a day 2 post and "responded" to a day 1 post.

I don't believe this is all accidental, though.

[Hero764]

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Uhm, if you quoted the right stuff, then why did you write that post "in the context of my day 1 post?"

Also, I was responding to a D1 post on Post 151. Explanation here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1614533

I know...I never said otherwise.

Don't even reply since we're going to go in circles. Which is just mucking up this thread.

Uhm, no. When you make a post that is clearly made to paint me in a bad light I am obliged to reply.

And stop making up stuff

I never did.

You say that I quoted the post with your questions in it, then clearly say I quoted post 184 and your questions were in 170.

There were questions in both posts. Why you couldn't read through them and see that, and then answer them I have no clue.

As to bringing up him being mafia. I said earlier that it would be easy for a mafia member to act newbish and still "get his job done".

Yes I know what you said, but it contradicts what you said before.

I don't remember ever saying that I think its highly unlikely CJ was scum.

I doubt that. You said it in post 125:

This does no help. And I honestly do not know how to proceed.

I'm looking for some help from our IC Very Happy

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful?

I highly doubt hes mafia.

He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

yet according to you I've been unatentive too... And yet clearly I haven't been.

Lol. Not attentive? That's why you fucking forgot what you even said, and you forgot about the questions I asked you, and you didn't answer the questions I asked in 184.

You're continued neglecting of my questions is noted.

ATTN TOWNIES: I think it should be pretty obvious by now that at least one of these two is scum. I really want your thoughts on this.

MOD: Please prod Slaine Hayes.

[/b]

[Hero764]

What do you mean "at least one of these two"? Are you implying that they are not scum together?

Well I was taking into account the possibility that Toledo could be scum(as I have discussed before). Feeres, you, and whoever Slaine's replacement is aren't totally in the clear either. To clarify: I'm about 100% sure at least one of them is scum, while its only probable that they are scum together.

Hockeyruler said the above at 133, not 125. I guess someone isn't being very attentive. Rolling Eyes

Wow, I suck. I could've sworn that I read 125 as the post number. Anyways, yeah I meant 133 hockey. Thanks.

I agree that both players are suspect, but you haven't addressed my last post. Why are we focusing on these two and not Toledo? I believe Toledo posted what looked like a role fishing post earlier, and was on the wagon yesterday at L-2, which according to your logic, should be just as suspicious as an L-1 vote, no?

By my logic? Uh, here let me explain:

When you put someone at L-1, you are acknowledging that anyone can hammer them, and you can't unvote after that. In essence, you are saying it is ok for them to be lynched. When you put someone at L-2(or 3,4, etc.) all you are saying is that you find the person scummy. Sure, there could be 2 extra votes piled on(as is what happened) before you can unvote, but in general putting someone at L-2 allows you to unvote if you don't want them lynched yet. When you put someone at L-1 without wanting them lynched soon you are being a bad player.

I'm a little surprised that you didn't question me about that, or even say something about me fishing.

Tenchi did it for me. I did note that you did it though, and I do find you suspicious.

[Hero764]

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Uhm, if you quoted the right stuff, then why did you write that post "in the context of my day 1 post?"

Because that was the context of it. You removed the quote I referenced when you quoted it again.

Uhm, no. Read my post again. I made it painstakingly clear that I was directly talking about your D2 post, IN WHICH YOU CLAIMED THAT LYNCHING CJMILLER WAS A GOOD MOVE. Seriously, this isn't that hard to understand.

Also, I was responding to a D1 post on Post 151. Explanation here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1614533

I know...I never said otherwise.

Nope. You have been ignoring this part of our conversation and accusing me of misquoting stuff or reacting to unnecessary things. I need you to read those things because you have taken them out of context.
[/quote]
I've already explained this to you about a million times now, and it was obvious in the first place what I was referring to. So no, I'm not wrong in ANY of this.

ATTN TOWNIES: I think it should be pretty obvious by now that at least one of these two is scum. I really want your thoughts on this.

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

1. Of course you don't.
2. You seem so certain that he's not scum. The only way you could know that for certain is if you were scum yourself. Oops.
3. This isn't what my case is about.

(When I lost my head) I thought that it was OK to lynch CJMIller because Hockey validates the lynch by putting him at L-1. So I hammer, and now get in trouble. It was MY mistake, not his.

Hockey did say he wanted CJMiller lynched. But his opinion isn't the only one you should follow.

I forgot who said this recently (I forgot), but an L-1 actually denotes a more careful investigation of the person, not a validation to hammer. An L-1 pushes pressure onto the player which elicits reactions from both him and his possible scum partner.

Yeah but I'm pretty sure Hockey never stated he wanted to pressure CJMiller(which he would've brought by this point in day 2, don't you agree?), and instead he wanted him just plain gone.

My suspicious of you have not been weakened, and if anything have been reinforced.

[Hero764]

Also, I want to pose a question to Tenchi. On day 1 you were much more active than now. Why has your activity dropped so much? I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just wondering(you have to admit it is odd that you would lose activity once suspicion is on you, not saying you wouldn't have a legitimate reason though).

[Hero764]

kik: That's a pretty stupid idea imo. Everyone else is going to look like a liar, and I feel that will impair the town's ability to scum hunt.

[Hero764]

Why? The results are meaningless unless someone actually flips cop. The other alternatives are to possibly lose any and all investigations, or for our cop to claim in thread before night 2 begins. Personally, I don't see how either of those options benefit town. The results should be entirely ignored until cop claims or flips. We are not even guaranteed to have a cop, so please expand on your reasoning if you persist in believing this to be stupid.

My point is that it causes unneeded speculation on the player's that didn't turn out to be a cop. For instance:

Player A hyper investigates Player B, and Player B ends up as townie after being killed. Would this not put suspicion on Player A for a (seemingly) random guess?

Post 192 links to a similar question, because I don't know what you are saying.

And your answer to that does not show that I misquoted anything. I read it and feel that I have quoted the right stuff properly. Post 195, you provided me an example where I misquoted something. Nothing was misquoted there.

Uhm, if you quoted the right stuff, then why did you write that post "in the context of my day 1 post?"

Because that was the context of it. You removed the quote I referenced when you quoted it again.

Uhm, no. Read my post again. I made it painstakingly clear that I was directly talking about your D2 post, IN WHICH YOU CLAIMED THAT LYNCHING CJMILLER WAS A GOOD MOVE. Seriously, this isn't that hard to understand.

Uhm, no. Read my post again. I made it painstakingly clear that I was directly talking about your D1 post, in which I mentioned that lynching CJMiller was a good move. Seriously, this isn't that hard to understand.

YOU SAID THAT YOU DO THINK(NOT DID THINK) LYNCHING CJMILLER WAS A GOOD MOVE. I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHETHER OR NOT THE POST WAS WRITTEN IN THE CONTEXT OF A DAY 1 POST, BECAUSE IT IS VERY OBVIOUS MY RESPONSE TO IT WAS NOT. THE CONTEXT OF YOUR DAY 2 POST IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.

How something so god damn simple CONTINUES to slip your mind is really mind-boggling. I'm pretty sure you knew about all of this, and are using this as some sort of defense technique, because there's no way in hell anyone is this bad at ignoring stuff.

ATTN TOWNIES: I think it should be pretty obvious by now that at least one of these two is scum. I really want your thoughts on this.

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

1. Of course you don't.
2. You seem so certain that he's not scum. The only way you could know that for certain is if you were scum yourself. Oops.
3. This isn't what my case is about.

You are misrepresenting me again. How would I know that Hockey is not town? I said I was less than 40% sure he was scum. How is that "certain"?

Oh be quiet. You know exactly what I'm getting at.

You said if we lynched Hockeyruler in lylo we would lose. Not "probably lose", plain old lose. This is only possible if he's townie. You were certain we would lose, you were certain he's town.

I forgot who said this recently (I forgot), but an L-1 actually denotes a more careful investigation of the person, not a validation to hammer. An L-1 pushes pressure onto the player which elicits reactions from both him and his possible scum partner.

Yeah but I'm pretty sure Hockey never stated he wanted to pressure CJMiller(which he would've brought by this point in day 2, don't you agree?), and instead he wanted him just plain gone.

Again, I can't blame him for acting like that if he was a Townie. CJMiller WAS annoying. Again, I think I lost my cool and lynched him too quickly. It was my mistake, not his.[/quote]Hockeyruler said he was townie and still wanted him lynched. How the hell can't you blame him?

Oh that's right, you're scum.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Smells like scum not thinking and just want to shoot down possibly good ideas.

I love how you failed to mention how it didn't make sense.

[Hero764]

I'm so tired of this exchange. I tried my best at convincing you and I will take questions from other people.

Anyway, I still encourage everyone else to read that exchange later and see what's wrong.

Convince me of what? That what you claim is relevant really isn't? This was a really drastic way of trying to avoid the question tbh, but w/e. I won't bring this up unless people see some sort of fault of mine all of this.

Also, if someone "claims" a scum to be innocent, then the Mafia can automatically rule them out to not being a cop. I suggest that we stop this idea.

The best point you've made all game

[Hero764]

Also, if someone "claims" a scum to be innocent, then the Mafia can automatically rule them out to not being a cop. I suggest that we stop this idea.

The best point you've made all game

Yeah, give him credit for what I have said.

I was giving him credit for what he added to your post(hence the 'also'). That's not to undermine what you've said, I don't disagree with it, its just that he's been less active than you in this game so it was a little joke =P.

I think we need a prod on hockeyruler. He seems to have disappeared.

Mod, please prod Hockeyruler

[Hero764]

Was there a point to that post hockey?

Glad to have you back though.

[Hero764]

I think that the Tenchi-Hero debate has dominated your(collective) thinking to an extraordinary degree. They are both tunnelvisioned on each other and everyone is kind of getting drawn in and not opening their possibilities to other players - which suits scum fine. Even if, best case scenario, one of them is scum, we'd have to risk 2 lynches to make sure of getting them, and we STILL would have one roaming around. And if we're wrong, and the scum are just letting them argue because they're both convinced the other is scum, we lose the game, 2 failed lynches gg.

I wouldn't even call it a debate. I ask Tenchi a few questions, he tries to avoid by pointing out some sort of fault in my reasoning, and then I respond by pointing out that he is full of shit(which he was), and then this continues as he denies it. There were a few other things in there, but that's really what it boils down to.

And so - I would recommend getting away from both players. I doubt scum would try to flog a dead horse and continue the same argument around and around, sticking their neck out so far. I think it's much more likely for the scum to be retreating.

If scum always did what was likely for scum to do, then scum hunting would be a breeze. And can you point to an instance where Tenchi stuck his neck out?

Kiku - for the most part of the game has picked up on every logical inconsistency I have and pushed the right people about it. I am perfectly happy to assume she is town simply because of the usefulness of her posts and good observations.

I'll agree, but I can't be 100% sure. I've read a few games on this site and on more than one of them the more helpful players ended up being scum.

Feeres - Started off as oneo f my no.1 suspects. Had the random vote slip. It's been covered, but I didn't like it when it happened. He also does some odd defending of Toledo and some odd attakcing of Hero. Since then he's gone down and posted a few better posts.

I still don't know what any of you were getting at on his so called Day 1 contradiction. I don't really have much to add to this though.

Hockey - Putting someone to L-1 is dicey. Not the same as a hammer, but it's dicey nonetheless. Saying 'I'm almost sure he's not mafia' when he was a real suspect is poor. Then forgetting about it is a lie/contradiction/mistake and that's poor. Arguing for the lynching of a town just due to annoyance is poor. His current behaviour seems typical of a scum letting another argument just flow on - but he's there when he's asked a question. active without participating (209 and 250.)
I think Hockey is looking like a very suspicious target.

Oh you've got to be kidding. He's yet to answer my 4(3?) questions that I asked of him, and the fact that he denies ever saying CJMiller was probably town makes him look all the scummier, don't you think. These reasons are far better than simply his active lurking.

Toledo - This is my number one suspect at the moment. Toledo flies under the radar, adds fuel to other arguments without ever putting his neck on the line. He has actively rolefished in this game and was barely challenged on it. He has made several suspicious posts (see 35, 51, 152, 173, 185, 226. See my above notes for my analysis of these posts.)

I agree with the basis of what you've said about Toledo, although I've interpreted him as simply a new player who acts like he knows his shit(especially during the start) but doesn't feel comfortable enough to actually get in the middle of a discussion. I agree that he's suspicious though. No. 3 for me right now.

Conclusion: I think I can understand your reasons for not voting Tenchi(although hopefully I've cleared them up) but you have no reason to let Hockey off right now. He's been acting much scummier than Toledo, and voting Toledo over him is simply something I don't agree with.

[Hero764]

Welcome to game btw

[Hero764]

CJ acted very inexperienced and it wasn't very helpful.

Ok.

This behavior doesn't necesarily seem scummy but is very easy to imitate.

But you said you highly doubted he was mafia, now you thought he was mafia imitating scum?

After CJ posted complete nonsense I guess I over reacted and voted.

Terrible defense, but w/e. I'm more concerned about you trying to justify killing someone who you "highly doubt is mafia", which you haven't really addressed yet.

I DO NOT regret the lynch (well I mean I wouldn't do it again, but with what I knew then) His posts weren't helpful and when it gets down to the wire with several players who have seemed townish the whole game, and then CJ, its going to be CJ getting voted. The one thing I do regret over that whole incident was how fast it was over with.

With what you knew then? You said you highly doubted he was mafia, so you would've known that then. You do not regret lynching a probable townie. What?

Need more activity guys. This is pathetic compared to what we had.

[Hero764]

Hi. Thanks for your welcome. Before I get onto much gameplay stuff, I have to say your style of writing really doesn't endear me to your case. Saying that someone is full of shit, TALKING IN CAPS, saying things like you gotta be kidding me - all of that stuff doesn't actually improve your case at all and only serves to make me not want to listen to you. Others will disagree with you, it can be frustrating. Time to man up, take a breath and find reasons. If you feel you have given plenty - make a summary case. If you feel there are unanswered questions, work out the most important ones and type them out again. Howling at the moon because you are sure you're correct is unhelpful.

See that's the thing. I've given plentiful reasons for my cases and yet they are ignored a lot. Am I not allowed to get angry on a mafia game?

The Feeres day 1 thing is minor, but similar to Hockey's recent issue. Feeres said that he randomed a vote on a player, then changed it to an FoS because he was worried about how high the vote count was getting. In the same post, he ALSO said he was FoSing because he was suspicious of the player. So - a) which one is it? Is he suspicious or is he your random vote that you changed to an FoS purely to avoid stacking? b) if you are suspicious of a player, why random vote at all? Those questions were barely addressed by Feeres, and similarly to Hockey, even if his story changed to adapt ot the criticism and his CURRENT story makes sense, that's not how it went down according ot the post history. The reason why it's possibly scummy is that it heaped further suspicion on CJ while allowing him to distance himself (Oh no, that was a random vote, I wasn't pushing the wagon on a townie).

He addressed all of these questions, and it was pretty obvious what the answers were(to me at least, obviously not to others) before he even said anything.

a) He found CJ suspicious, but not suspicious enough to vote(which was reasoned also by the fact that his votes were piling up). The random vote thing had nothing to do with it at this point, it just happened by coincidence(as he said).

b) He stated that he made his random vote before reading through the thread.

Saying things like if scum always did what scum is supposed to do scumhinting would be easy, and sure she's helpful but sometimes helpful players end up being scum - doesn't hold much water. It's like the 'too townie' or 'too scummy' argument. Of course we are unable to be certain about someone - it's a game of incomplete information. But if you had someone who is acting town and someone who is acting scum, there's no point trying to work out if it's the odd time that the scummy person is town and the townie person is scum - you just have to go by the probabilities that scummy action = scum and townie action - town.

It obviously does hold water since there have been games where it happened. Anyways, kiku is not my main concern right now by any means, and I'm thinking she's probably town. I was just throwing the possibility out there.

As for Hockey, no need to ask if I'm kidding when I'm agreeing with you about his scummyness. There's no need to go over the points that have dragged on for ages without getting anywhere - I summarised the points you made against him and added more. I agree with most of the case against him.

Uhm, no. You said he was always there to answer questions, when clearly the opposite was true.

Or would you prefer to be Hero, going missing for 40 posts and only popping up with minor posts when he hears his name?

What are you talking about?

@the debate issue: Two things:
1) I'm not tunnelvisioned. I've been focusing on hockeyruler specifically as well, and posting suspicions of other players. Its just that the thing with Tenchi wouldn't end because he kept denying what I was saying.
2) Do you think me and Tenchi have equal stances in the issue(ie. one is not more justifiable than the other)?

Not much to say on Tenchi's notes. If there's anything you want me to address in them let me know.

[Hero764]

Also, one big thing here: me flipping town does NOT clear anyone, especially Hockey.

Big contradiction. Post 229 you state that:

I have some problems with this.

1. I don't think Hockey is likely scum. Well I think he's 40% scum, maybe less.
2. You are setting both of us for a back to back lynch. When/Even if I flip town, I feel you'd set him up for the next lynch, which will cost us the game.
3. In the situation of the quicklynch, I don't think Hockey is scum. He couldn't have expected me to hammer. (If you have a case against him that accuses him of quicklynching CJMiller, then I say you shouldn't do that.)

Please do not set Hockey for a back to back lynch with the CJMiller thing as base on his case.

1. You say that Hockey isn't likely to be scum. Minor thing, but still interesting.
2. Here you state that by voting for you voting for hockey would surely end in a loss. This contradicts what you've just said.
3. And yet now you say that it

especially

doesn't clear Hockey.

[Hero764]

If I don't address some of your post its because I generally agree with what it says, or think that the discussion needs to go no further.

For Hockey - I didn't make myself clear, which is why you didn't understand the second part either. When I said that he was always there to answer questions, I should have said he was ONLY there to answer questions. In the last 100 posts, Hockey has posted a suspiciously few amount of times, and almost every time has been a direct response to him seeing his name. That means he is keeping up with the game without posing - active lurking, a big scumtell in my experience.

Ah. I gotcha.

The what are you talking aobut quote should be Hockey, not Hero. My point in that exchange was Hero seems to have worked himself in a safer position than Tenchi because of the active lurking that I described above.

Sorry about the poor wording and Hero/Hockey nameswap - I've written about 5000 words in 2 days about this game and occasionally I'll make that kind of mistake.

It's no problem.

Is there any chance you would vote for someone other than Tenchi or Hockey today? Or have you made your mind up already?

I would be willing to lynch anyone if I were convinced enough. Right now Tenchi, Hockey, and somewhat Toledo are the only ones who I am considering at the moment. Tenchi's latest post has reaffirmed my suspicions of him.

What do you think about the idea of Tenchi providing us with a case on someone who is less central ot the game at the moment, like Feeres or Toledo? If we were to lynch that person, with or without your vote, and they turned up scum, would you be prepared to reassess your views on Tenchi?

If Tenchi was able to do that, coupled with all of his other behavior, I would probably come to the conclusion that he was bussing. I'm open to other suggestions though of course.

@ Hero - one last question - if we lynched Tenchi/Hockey today and they flipped town, would you be gunning for Hockey/Tenchi the next day? ie - if we lynched one, do you think that clears the other enough to look elsewhere for our lylo vote?

Like I've said, I believe that at least one of them is scum. So I would probably be going against the other one. I would still be open to suggestions though.

Other Note: If Tenchi fails to address my point about his contradiction well enough I think he should definitely be our Day 2 lynch. Do you agree?

[Hero764]

1. I think Hockey isn't likely to be scum because you are badgering him and I think YOU are scum.
2. If you are scum, you are doing one hell of a job trying to breadcrumb a back to back town lynch. I hope they catch onto you. Obviously you and Hockey cannot be scum together.
3. I was responding to SC's observation that my TownFlip removes a lot of suspicion against Hockey.

1. Which brings up a question of mine: Why do you think I'm scum? Other than OMGUS reasons, of course.
2. And if I'm not scum?
3. But according to you, hockey isn't really suspicious at all. Why are you now suggesting that he should be suspected?

But I am still strongly annoyed by how Hero kept on twisting my words and misrepping me the whole game! And for that I still think he's scum.

OMGUS then? I have no twisted your words once, so don't even try that.

[Hero764]

Do you see what's wrong with that statement? I told you he is likely to be Town (around <40% scum). Nowhere did that say that he isn't suspicious at all.

We've already been through this. Point 2 on post 229, you state that lynching hockey will result in us losing. This means you are he is town, as obviously lynching mafia will not result in us losing.

My dillemma here is that I have two "scum factions" which I am trying to get my head around:

1. You and somebody (not Kikuchiyo, not Feeres)
2. Toledo and Hockey (still haven't done that Hockey review though)

3. The contradictory element here is that I feel that you and Hockey cannot be scum together. Also, Toledo has suspected you a fair amount.

If you are not scum then we are so royally screwed. To prevent that, I suggest that you look into my reviews without bias.

Why would we be royally screwed? =/ And I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say reviews. The notes you made? If so I did read them without bias, I'm not sure what you want me to see in them though.

[Hero764]

EBWOP:

This means you are he is town

should be:

This means you are sure he is town

[Hero764]

Yes to me.

You are not seeing this from MY point of view.

I think YOU are scum. Therefore, from the POV you both cannot be buddies. Therefore in Hockey vs Hero, I think YOU are scum. Hence on that argument alone, I think Hockey is probTown. Can't you see something from my POV for once?

So you weren't posting through your POV when you said that the suspicion on hockey should be continued?

Yeah, ignore my notes. Because your name wasn't there and it doesn't directly concern you.

What the hell? I read your notes.

Can you please stop badgering me. You obviously have no plans of hearing me out here. Everybody gets the case against me. Can you just give me a moment to lay out my "last words"?

I'm already pretty much dead. I don't know what you are doing to make me much "deader".

I've given you plenty of chances to explain yourself, and all you do is accuse me of twisting your words, trying to force the town into a back-to-back lynch. You've not even properly addressed my first post on day 2.

And I'm still waiting for any other reasons for me being scum, other than me suspecting you.

[Hero764]

And I want to know why we would be royally screwed. That didn't make much sense.

[Hero764]

EBWOP:

I've given you plenty of chances to explain yourself, and all you do is accuse me of twisting your words, trying to force the town into a back-to-back lynch, etc. You've not even properly addressed my first post on day 2.

Fixed to avoid confusion.

[Hero764]

It was still my POV. But its a different one. DID YOU READ I HAVE A DILEMMA HERE? I have two scum group suspects.

This is so confusing. You hadn't mentioned any suspicion of hockey yet outside of Toledo's notes. But that didn't make any sense anyways because Toledo hasn't been interacting with a lot of people. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here though.

You twisting my words is not convincing me of that.

Are you saying that I didn't read your notes, or that I shouldn't read your notes? Its hard to tell.

You have twisted my words until NOW. Trying to ask me leading questions that would lead into a lose-lose situation for me. Read your questions again and see what they imply and what they try to put into my mouth.

I'll do that.

They just have to review the exchange between us. That's all they have to do.

Yeah but you've been doing everything you can to discredit me as a valid scumhunter rather than just answering my questions.

I read your first post addressed to me and it really took my post out of context.

See the two posts here:

ORIGINAL: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 99#1613399

BUTCHERED: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#1613831

You took it out of context.

NO I DID NOT.

FOR THE LAST TIME:

Though I do think CJMiller gone is actually a good move for us since I would NEVER give him a free pass on making it to endgame.

You state, on day 2, that lynching a townie was a good move. I was simply questioning why you would say such a thing.

[Hero764]

Here are my quick notes on the argument:

151 - You state lynching a townie was a good move.

154 - I challenge you for saying that.

155 - You start your long pattern of confusion by taking this out of context and act as though I was replying to a day 1 post.

157 - I try to explain it to you.

158 - You start freaking out.

159 - You accuse me of misrepping, which I did not do.

161 - I challenge you for doing all of this.

163 - You try to cover up your tracks, but you don't make much sense.

164 - I misrep your second point, and place my vote on you.

165 - You OMGUS me, and continue to try and make my post out of context to avoid having to answer to it(which you haven't done yet).

167 - You "chill."

This just keeps going in circles. If you think I missed anything important please point it out.

[Hero764]

156 then, whatever. I don't see why I need to type it out again.

(WRONG: It we ME/TENCHI who was replying to a Day One post. See Post 151, again!)

I know, but you were acting as though my post should be in the context of day 1 because of that, when it really shouldn't.

[Hero764]

Tenchi, why can't you understand this?

On day 2, you made that post.

It was replying to a day 1 post.

It was still posted on day 2.

On that post, you claim you do think CJMiller was good lynch choice.

This was after he flipped town.

Understand?

[Hero764]

For the Nth time, I was replying to a D1 post that I wanted addressed. I felt that I didn't give a firm point of view on what I think and I just hammered. I owed you guys my thought at the very least.

What does this have to do with anything? The fact still remains that you thought
CJMiller was a good lynch choice, and you said this after he flipped town.

[Hero764]

I can live with that conclusion.

Ok...just so you know that it makes you look scummy.

I really want to know why you think I've been taking things out of context and twisting your words, as you repeatedly stated while answering Feeres's questions. I don't think I've done anything wrong here, you're the one who's been denying all of this until now. And telling us to lynch you does the town no good.

Hero764:
Do you feel Tenchi is stepping on your toes at this point (post 20)?

I'm not sure what you mean by stepping on my toes.

Did you decide to become more and more aggressive on purpose (post 37 onwards)?

No. Its just that you generally get more into the game after the RVS...

What do you think there is to discuss about that post bay Tenchi (post 55)?

Why he would suddenly drop his 'pressuring' of me.

What did you find interesting about the post (post 71)?

That he would suddenly stop pressuring me.

Do you not see a contradiction in my posts (post 89)?

No. Are you telling me you purposely put a contradiction in your post? That hurts town.

How was lynching CJ partly your fault apart from your vote on him (post 153)?

What do you mean apart from that? Why does there need to be a another reason apart from that?

What won't you talk about much more, his lynch or what you did to get him lynched (post 153)?

His lynch.

Why is Hockey not exactly looking good because of the 30 min hammer (post 153)?

Really? It looks like the two were a scum team and quicklynched CJMiller(a townie). This happens a lot.

If CJ would be at L-1, do you think he would be responding with more effort than if he was at L-2 (post 157)?

I don't know.

How did everyone know CJ was town (post 157)?

Jesus christ not you too. BECAUSE IT WAS DAY 2 AND HE HAD ALREADY FLIPPED TOWN.

Does Tenchi answer to your question #1 in a satisfying manner (post 174)?

I don't know which #1 you are referring to.

If you expect there to be discussion at L-1, why do you think that the person who put CJ at L-1 is suspicious then (post 174)?

I don't see where I said this on post 174.

Do you think you are not focusing too much on Tenchi (post 186)?

Could you rephrase that question?

Why do you think Toledo is acting odd (post 196)?

I forget. Probably because he wasn't posting much.

If a game has one player who jumps around with his votes, making senseless arguments and not providing answers to your questions, would you lynch him (post 216)?

I can't decide a lynch based on one thing. I would probably vote for him, but as for lynching? There's other factors to consider.

Why do you say it's ok to come hammer someone when you put them at L-1 when you earlier said that there's discussion before hammer (post 216)?

That was a pretty stupid thing for me to say, I admit. I think I was just so focused on making hockey look as bad as possible at that point.

Because Hockey wants CJ lynched, does it mean that someone else should want as well (post 232)?

It depends on how scummy the person is being.

Wouldn't it be obvious not to consider a non-cop's hyperclaim investigations and if someone would use them as basis for scumhunt we could see a hidden motivation behind it (post 242)?

Could you rephrase the question?

How did Hockey want CJ lynched if he couldn't affect how others would vote for him (post 242)?

What?

Do you have some opinion on Kiku (post 258)?

Not in particular.

Can you give me a list of your suspects, from most town to most scum?

From Towniest to Scummiest:
1. SerialClergyMan
2. kikuchiyo
3. Feeres
4. Toledo
5. hockeyruler
6. Tenchi

[Hero764]

Addon: hockeyruler and Tenchi are generally at the same level for me, same as with Feeres and kiku.

[Hero764]

How come you only want to know who I find towniest to scummiest?

[Hero764]

OK Let's see what got me going here. You are trying to imply back then that statement that I was happy that I killed a Townie because I am scum.

I was simply pointing it out to you so you hopefully get the hint and try to explain it. The fact that you dragged this on is what made me vote for you. This coupled with your general pessimism, what appear to be contradictions here and there. I just find you scummy in general. I was not prepared to vote for you when I made that post though(154). hockey was actually my number one suspicion at the time.

Of course I'm not! I feel like crap that CJMiller flipped town. I think that it was to get rid of CJMIller because he was very detrimental (didn't answer questions properly and he didn't explain his votes properly) and for that I have no regrets, since at least I didn't have to worry with him getting to the endgame.

You've stated your regret numerous times though.

And I again challenge that notion. Killing townies should never be considered a good move, as it gets us closer to losing. I understand that CJMiller looked scummy at the time(I even voted for him), its just that saying it was a good move after we all knew he was town kinda doesn't make any sense.

[Hero764]

unvote

Vote: hockeyruler

I find it interesting that Toledo and hockeyruler are ignoring each other. I'm also getting a lot more protown vibes from Tenchi(this does not remove suspicion of you.) I think we should look elsewhere for our lynch today. And besides, I want to see more of a hockeyruler defense. I would go with Toledo but I just don't find him scummy like I do hockeyruler.

[Hero764]

Sorry Toledo:

Assuming that a no lynch would be bad for the town, who would have been better to lynch on Day 1? Feeres?

Why would you say Feeres? I was defending him on day 1. I don't know who would have been better to lynch. I think the day should've kept going so we could find out more.

Tunneling is where you are completely focused on 1(or 2?) players and you pretty much ignore the others.

And did anyone else notice that the deadline for the game is tomorrow?

All Newbie games have strict 3-week deadlines. Extensions are given only in extreme circumstances.

It's been 2 weeks and 6 days since the game started =/.

Mod: Is this still being enforced?

[Hero764]

This to me is poor logic indeed. Let's assume they were both scum. If they had constructed their little argument, they would almost certainly have gotten one of them lynched today (If I hadn't replaced in that was looking almost certain, I think it's fair to say.) That means that you would be pretty assured that the non-lynched one was town. But then there is night, then another lynch and another night. So why didn't that person die?? Say Tenchi got lynched and flipped scum, everyone thinks Hero is town - then he isn't killed by mafia 2 nights in a row - it makes no sense. Hero is essentially the only confirmed town person, yet he keeps living. I would find that highly worrying, and in a 3 man lylo, I doubt he'd find a win. In addition - that plan is instantly foiled by a cop, and definitely hurt by a doc. When scum put their buddies at risk early on in the game, it's very hard to win.

I think you misinterpreted the post you quoted, because it seems to me you actually agree with his logic here .

To Hero, some answers to his questions.
Question #1: Stepping on your toes as in he is trying to provoke you in to saying something which would make you suspicious.

Yes I think he was trying to do that. I'm not going to hold that against him though.

Question #5: Other people have pointed out that I have a contradiction in my posts, I do not understand what the contradiction is, therefore I wanted to know if you noticed such or not.

I didn't.

Question #6: You say that lynching CJ was partly your fault, do you mean that it was partly your fault because you voted for him or is there something more than that?

Just because I voted for him.

Question #11: I'm referring to you saying that he ignored half of your post, in your opinion, did he ever deal with these inconsistencies you pointed out?

I forget. =/ I don't think so.

Question #12: It's a statement you make in post 174, that there is usually discussion when someone is put at L-1. Earlier though, you said you would have unvoted CJ when he was put at L-1 but you were too slow. It's connected to my earlier question about your opinion if CJ would answer better at L-1 than L-2, that if you agree that someone answers to questions better when they are at dire danger of being lynched, they would actually take the time to respond properly. It's a question which was raised by this post, because if someone puts a person at L-1, woul0d he be right in not expecting a hammer coming but instead there being bunch of discussion, especially that early in to the game?

It's complicated. hockeyruler was fine with the lynch(as he stated and his L-1 says), but there was probably going to be discussion anyways. I was saying it was irresponsible of Tenchi to hammer without giving anyone a chance to voice their opinion or even CJMiller to defend himself. Normally he would be pressured into defending him self more, and Tenchi should've at least given him the chance.
Question #13: I was meaning that do you think you are focusing enough on Tenchi, while not ignoring other people while doing so? Or in other words, are you giving enough attention to other players' scummy actions as well in your opinion?

Probably not, with the exception of hockey.

Question #18: The point was, if I randomly said that I investigated Tenchi and found him scum, then I'd be killed and turn up town, would you suspect Tenchi as being scum because of that?

If you didn't turn up cop then no...

Question #19: This question might be because of my differing views on the L-1 situation. In your opinion if you put someone at L-1, it means that you agree that he is lynched, while I see it more as a way to pressure someone as much as possible. So disregard that question.

Ok.

Answers to Feeres.

[Hero764]

My voting of CJ made sense to me, yet to some of you (Hero, etc) it didn't, and to others (Feeres, Toledo) it did.

It doesn't make sense because you have two completely different stories about the vote. One is that he looked like scum acting like that, and another is that he was being an unhelpful townie(which, lynching him for that is almost as scummy as you can get). The fact that you still have failed to properly explain yourself has made you look all the scummier.

I fail to see how that looks at all like distancing myself, I stated quite easily the truth. Looking over his "rolefishing" post again (unless there is another post like this, I don't honestly think it can be fishing) It really did not try and get anyone to list a role and only mentioned hero, I feel if he was fishing for roles he would have given a list of people with their possible roles, not make mention of one person. I guess he has maybe stood at the outside of arguements, but I haven't noticed it (haha)

It might be bias, but this reeks of defending a scumbuddy. Either that or you're just trying to start arguments to "stay involved". Anyways, he doesn't have to name multiple people...that would be incredibly obvious.

[Hero764]

Where did all the activity go? If no one else has anything to add I think we should just go with the lynch. I'm advocating hockey for reasons stated.

[Hero764]

We're not getting anywhere, and the dead line is in 3 days =/.

[Hero764]

I'll get some discussion going...

Toledo88: Any reason you still have a vote on Tenchi? Do you agree that hockeyruler looks scummy? If not, post your reasoning.

The fact that hockey and Toledo are neglecting to defend themselves and instead just "accepting their fate" makes them look like scum giving up imo. If you were town you would be able to justify yourself to some extent, right?

[Hero764]

Well what you've already said hasn't been good enough

And ok, did you vote for CJ because he was an unhelpful townie, or because you thought he was mafia acting that way as a disguise?

Why did you make two different stories?

And why haven't you voted yet?

[Hero764]

I'll be making my final vote decision after Tenchi and Toledo post. I'm still leaning towards hockey though.

[Hero764]

I'm not sure what the hell is up with kiku with this sudden tunnelvision of serial. I think she definitely needs to be examined on D3.

Since I'm at L-1 (hope I counted right), I guess I'll say I'm Vanilla Townie. I'd rather not though, since in case I don't get lynched, the scum will have a better chance of hitting a role. We should worry about what else to do now, as we are a day from the dead line.

Did you even think before you posted this? "Oh I'd rather not tell scum that I'm vanilla townie". Newbiest thing I've seen all game, not sure if its scummy or not.

Note: If the votes haven't changed before tommorow night I will be hammering Toledo. I still think we should go for hockey, and I don't like how he'll basically be able to stay quiet the rest of D2 to avoid others from further suspecting him.

[Hero764]

I think you explained her flaws clearly in the first post you made in the argument, and after that she simply acted like she wouldn't give up and kept on making up BS reasons to suspect you. I dunno if that means she's scum and wants to throw some confusion into the game(which doesn't quite match up with her earlier behavior), or that she's town and really just is bent on catching you as scum(which is odd as well ). I don't find anything in her case plausible.

I also didn't like how she mentioned you were dragging the argument out, when in fact she was doing the exact same thing.

[Hero764]

Wow, the misrepresentations are priceless.

I have not made a "case" against Serial. I find it interesting that you are trying to make it seem as though I am pushing the idea of scumSerial. ScumSerial is just one of many possibilities and I don't understand why you don't see it as, at least, "plausible". Does the above statement mean that you in no way see scumSerial as a possibility? Please list the "BS reasons" you refer to.

Of course I see it as a possibility, that doesn't mean I feel the need to point out a little thing that has no merit whatsoever in his post to make it seem more likely. I would say you have at least a mini case against him at this point, you even FoS'd him!

As for the BS reasons:

1. That trying to help town power roles is scummy. I shouldn't even have to explain this one, it isn't only up to the doctor on who to protect. We work together as a town so the PR's can make a better night choice.
2. That not suggesting yourself to be investigated is scummy because it benefits scum if you are scum. Ugh, I can't even begin to explain how meaningless this is. Him not suggesting to get investigated is a null tell at best. If he's town it benefits town by not wasting an investigation, you realize this right? There was 100% absolutely nothing scummy about saying that.
3. That a post can be scummy without actually doing anything for scum. This just doesn't make sense.
4. That him dragging on the argument is distracting the town and there's no reason for town to act like that. You're the one who keeps dragging it on. He defended himself, and you just respond defending your bs reasoning.

Also, you seem to have a problem personally with serial(calling him senseless, calling him a baby, accusing him of trying to dictate votes, accusing him of acting like he's above suspicion, etc.)

Is anybody else noticing the sudden duet going on here?

I can't share an opinion with someone?

Serial has so far been the most town player in the game, to go off like this and just start trying to MAKE him scum with all these reasons is just dumb and unneeded. If he does something scummy then yes you have every right to suspect him, but his post was not scummy, not by any means. Could he be scum? Yes. Are there more probable scums? Absolutely.

[Hero764]

Regardless, I have addressed the "bs" yet you seem to simply ignore my reasons. I am hoping it is because of the climate as I previously noted, but it certainly isn't going to help us if we don't deal with the issue. For those of us here tomorrow, try and return with a level head.

Your reasons weren't very good.

A. "I think a doctor should be aiming at one of the most 'town-y' people in the group." (AKA Protect SC. Obviously, at that point, that everyone agrees of your towniness.)

Could you be more obvious in putting words into his mouth? Seriously. This bothers me a ton, and my suspicions of you have gone up.

Making a night choice, as a role, is full of WIFOM. Don't even bother helping them/me/us out.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Again, what SC said is not a null-tell, it is also not scummy.
It was not pro-town. It slightly undermined town, but did not help scum directly.

Cool.

Very debatable. But not enough to undermine Kikuchiyo's points.

How is it debatable? If you aren't helping scum, how could it possibly be scummy?

Discussions like these are actually healthy, well except for the part where SC gave "advice" on how to use roles. If somebody is slowing down this scumhunt, it will be Toledo and Hockey. They have given us nothing.

I'm not the one who said anything against the discussion, she was.

Again, Kikuchiyo is not campaigning against his/SC's lynch. However, she and some others noticed how his/SC's post is "not sounding right".

Sounded fine to me. I don't see anything wrong with trying to help townie PR's out. I think the problem you guys have with him is that he's been so protown that if he's scum he's basically getting a free ride through the game. Paranoia basically. I don't see any reason to think that way though, there are scummier players at the moment.

It looks Hockey's not going to get enough votes for a lynch at the moment. I don't think the case against Toledo has more merit than hockey's, as it all seems to be based around his role fishing, which could very well be a noob townie mistake. We can't have a no lynch though, so I'll do as promised and

Vote: Toledo88

. To the gallows with ye.

[Hero764]

Tenchi(and kiku to some extent): Why are you so concerned with power roles using their gut? You REALLY don't think they should take any advice at all? The town needs to work together to win, saying otherwise is pretty scummy.

[Hero764]

We should've gone with hockey...

Anyways... I'm pretty sure Tenchi and Hockey are scum together. I would like to see more from Feeres since I'm not entirely decided on him. Kiku has been protown up until late day 2, and her attack of serial isn't looking good right now that its clear serial wasn't lying about anything(shocker...). The fact that Tenchi jumped right on in the attack with kiku makes all the scummier though. Hockey is just as bad as yesterday.

Vote: Hockeyruler

same reasons as yesterday.

[Hero764]

This is lylo. We need to lynch for scumminess, not curiosity. I found Hockey's "non" responses yesterday quite dubious, however, I am curious to see how long Hero is going to leave his vote out there. Without a scum quicklynch, I am wondering if it will be safe to assume that one of them is scum.

That's a good point. Since hockey hasn't been quicklynched yet, that means he has to be scum(unless you think I'm scum). Either that or the scum pair in this game don't know how to play when in lylo.

I think we are safe with lynching hockey. He's the only one I feel is certainly scum at this point, everyone else would be too risky.

Speculating about serial is pretty pointless. He was killed probably because he was the towniest. No need to tack on other reasons to it.

[Hero764]

At this point I think its Hero because of how hes pushing yet another lynch when the last one didn't work. If Toledo and me were scum partners and Toledo is now innocent then that kind of ruins the theory. Yes it doesn't prove my innocence but It certainly puts holes in your original arguement.

That was never my original argument. I've been saying all along that you and Tenchi were scum together. I never advocated that you and Tenchi were scum together. Nice job trying to put words into my mouth. In short, no this doesn't make you any less innocent, it makes you the most viable target right now because no one else has been as scummy as you and there are only five of us left.

Also the suggestion that me not being quicklynched suggests scum is also stupid. If you're scum, like I am suggesting, your other partner would not be able to vote till later. It all seems just a little too suspicious for me.

But do you actually have legitimate reasons to suspect me? I know I'm not scum, no one else can know this for sure, but I do. So, from what I know, you are almost certainly scum. And I want to ask everyone here: Which is more likely, that I'm scum or that hockey is scum?

Hero likes the idea of a hockey/toledo pair, toledo is guilty, hero then pushes for hockey. It seems to me that if you were mafia you'd know that we were both innocent thereby making either lynch just fine. And after the first one didn't work all you had to do was put a vote on me, say that I'm still guilty and wait for one other person to vote for me. And argue that because nobody else is voting, I must be scum...

I wanted to lynch you yesterday, not Toledo. I never stated I liked the idea of the hockey/toledo pair, it was just a better thing to go on than a no lynch. Toledo being innocent does not clear you at all.

I list the reasons later when I get home Tenchi.

[Hero764]

Reasons for suspecting hockey are basically:

1. He tried to justify lynching a townie.
2. Tenchi hammered only 30 minutes after hockey L-1'd, making it look like a scum quick lynch.
3. When questioned about it the next day, he tried to avoid the question by saying CJMiller could've been scum all along. A contradiction.
4. This was all followed by general scumminess behavior throughout the rest of D@(as serial pointed out). He was active lurking, not really making any suspicions, arguments weren't very strong.
5. He hasn't been quicklynched yet.

That's the basis of it.

[quoite]Hero: you seem to waffle about what is scummy and what is "acceptable" newbie mistakes. i.e. Toledo's rolefishing was "newbie", but when Tenchi and I encouraged town pr's to think for themselves that was scummy. Why did you only seem to give Toledo the benefit of the doubt yesterday? You came quickly to SC's defense as well. Either you are really good at discerning alignments or you defended players you knew to be town. Then you start day 3 (lylo) with a vote. I have read some newbie games, and most times in lylo it is scum dropping early votes. [/quote]So you think because other scum players have dropped early votes I automatically play the same and am scum because of it? Talk about flawed logic. Have you forgotten that there could be a legitimate reason for a vote?

As for what is scummy or not: It was the way Toledo presented himself, compared to you guys. And besides, speculating on a possibility(that wasn't a very good role fish on Toledo's part either, no one in their right mind who respond to that with a claim, as it would actually work against them by doing so) and actually encouraging the town to work seperate from one another are two different levels of summiness. And tell me: Why the hell would I, as scum, feel the need to defend a townie? That kind of defeats the purpose of it.

Kiku is being overly paranoid. I think you need to stop trying to suspect every single person(which I think you've done at this point). Use logic. The scummiest players are likely to be scum, overanalyzing everyone else just leads to pointless discussion.

[Hero764]

On another note, I am noting the big absence of interaction between Hockey and Kikuchiyo. Hero/Feeres, can you look at that for me?

I'd attribute that to the fact that hockey being the most inactive of all of us in this game. Remember when you "noticed" his lack of interaction with Toledo? It led us to a quicklynch.

I don't know what kind of justification he used by I still stand by that I'd rather have CJMiller lynched now/ not be in lylo.

You couldn't bother to look?

From post 133:

Is it okay to vote for CJ simply because I feel he isn't being helpful?

I highly doubt hes mafia.

He seems more... "Extremely newbish" and yet not voting for someone because of this seems like it would make it a very easy way for the mafia to "go about business".

Then why are you not voting for me? I think I am the most probable scum just by that criteria.

Because right now hockey has a bigger case stacked against him. Why are you even arguing with me on this?

Well everybody would have been scum all along.

Doesn't matter. He first stated he was voting CJMiller for being unhelpful, and then he stated he voted for CJMiller because he could've been a scum acting that way to get a free ride.

WIFOM. You could be scum waiting for a fooled townie.

That was

my

reason for suspecting him. I know you guys can't be sure that I'm townie, but I can.

[Hero764]

1. Am I supposed to say something along the lines of "Wow that was stupid of me, I just messed up." or more like "I'm mafia, hahaha, quicklynched!" The only real way to respond is to list why I did it... which I have.
2. OR it could have been a scum quicklynch without my involvment. Because scum can't communicate during the day that would have been just pure luck that he was on right then and that nobody else could argue it or remove their votes. Suggesting that I made that vote knowing that Tenchi would come in is blatantly ridiculous.
3. Well gee its easy to know he isn't scum NOW...
4. I wasn't actively lurking, I have forgotten about this game and at that time I was busy with (C'mon you can guess Smile) hockey games and tests.
5. That leads us to either: you're scum, I'm scum. So obviously to me it proves you're scum.

1. What the hell? I'm talking about day 1 here, not day 2.
2. Scum can usually communicate before the game starts, but that doesn't matter anyways. You could have easily seen Tenchi online when you voted.
3. Please explain how the hell this has anything to do with what I said.
4. That's open to interpretation. The fact is that several times you would come in and make brief statements about what was going and then disappear. I believe at one point I called for a prod of you and almost immediately you began posting again. Not to mention, as Tenchi and SC pointed out, you were spending the majority of the day defending yourself, not making any suspicions(trying to keep yourself in the clear?). Your arguments weren't strong at all, either.
5. Yes but I think the evidence does point to a more likely scum you than a scum me.

At this point I know Hero is guilty with (this part isn't for sure) either Tenchi or Kiku as a scum buddy. Noting the amount of arguement between Tenchi and Hero as the late serial pointed out means that its highly unlikely, making Kiku the scumbuddy which would make sense as shes not voting for me or hero. However I still do not discount Tenchi.

Ok...wtf? First you say us arguing makes us scummy, and now it makes it highly unlikely. And then you say that even though Tenchi being scum is highly unlikely he is probably my partner? Contradictions galore. Why haven't we lynched you yet?

I think it is safe to say that Feeres is confirmed town, no?

Not even close. How did you come to this conclusion?

[Hero764]

Sorry I haven't been able to post, been busy with finals and stuff.

Its not an omgus vote, as I've said before (and the same thing happened with the CJ lynch) I dislike the fact that Hero took up so much time arguing with you which did nothing for the town as a whole. Now he is focusing soley on me just like he did with Tenchi earlier. Not bothering to figure out a scum buddy except for what he has already said about Tenchi. Now that Tenchi is already suspected hes going to push for a lynch of me, and then a lynch of Tenchi, I would be amazed if something different didn't happen.

Did nothing for the town? So what have you done for the town so far? And nice scumslip(as kiku pointed out).

Anyways I think its pretty obvious hockey is scum. He's been given more than enough time to defend himself, and no one disagrees. Someone should hammer.

[Hero764]

Holy shit. Unexpected. Sorry for being so hostile Tenchi xD

Whoever the scum player is obviously didn't think this through enough . They could've easily won since everyone was gonna lynch Tenchi anyways.

Ok, so, no one vote yet. I honestly can't tell if its kiku or Feeres. Feeres has a more scummy feel to himself, while kiku has done some more questionable things(although they weren't necessarily scummy).

This is gonna be a hard day 4.

[Hero764]

I think I figured out possible explanation for

his

kill.

His? A slip, perhaps?

Hero seems to have been setting up a Tenchi or kiku mislynch as early as late day 2.

Quotes please.

Day 3 can easily be interpreted as a textbook bus, and if you notice, Hero points out in his very first post how suspicious it is of me to have attacked Serial. How exactly does Serial flipping town make my attack any more or less suspicious? Either Hero disagreed with the attack or not(clearly not), however, he seems to be attempting to use the town flip as "extra" evidence against me.

By attacking someone who was town it makes it look like you setting up a mislynch. You just used this logic against me =/.

And first I'm trying to set up mislynches, and now I'm trying to bus? Next time, read through the thread w/o already assuming I must be scum.

[Hero764]

Yes, his. Tenchi's kill, or to put it in better words, the killing of Tenchi. At least I think he's a he...

Sorry I read that post wrong.

Your first post of that day.

You'll also notice I never once mentioned lynching you, and that I only thought Tenchi and Hockey were scum at that point. I was just pointing out how odd it was that you suddenly attacked serial when he had been the most consistently townie out of anyone in the entire game.

And why would I attack someone who is town to set up a mislynch, and then nightkill them revealing their alignment?

1) Whether or not hockey died at night or during the day, it was still a townie getting killed.
2) He was the most pro-town out of anyone, so any logical scum would've killed him as it gave away the least amount of suspicion.
3) I also notice you were criticizing him for telling the doctor to protect himself. Now, whether or not there is a doctor is irrelevant, but this can easily be seen as a means to secure your night kill of serial.

[Hero764]

Realize you are the doc? How the hell could I know that? And why should I believe you? All three nights no one was ever protected.

And maybe you weren't even trying for the mislynch. Maybe you thought that by throwing more controversy into the mix to help further shift the vote count away from hockey. Maybe you thought that with 3 seemingly suspicious candidates people would be less likely to vote for hockey. And maybe you aren't scum at all. Feeres has a scummy 'vibe' about him. You have had some questionable actions this game =/.

Anyways, I certainly was not trying to get you lynched day 2 or 3. I was going after hockey 100% of the way(after I took my vote off of Tenchi, of course).

[Hero764]

Correction: you were protected night 1, nights 2 and 3 I protected Feeres.

There's no reason for me to believe that.

^^ This post seems to go nowhere. You accuse me of something and I disprove it, so you then morph your accusation to fit the scenario. Please describe this "scummy" vibe. Accusationi without evidence reads scummy itself.

I didn't morph anything. I've never accused of being scum, just of being questionable for going after serial. Don't put words into my mouth. And I can't really describe why Feeres feels scummy, it probably has something to do with the amount he's posted, and how he doesn't really have too many 'pro-town' posts. He's been extremely hard to read, and all of this inactivity doesn't make him look any better.

[Hero764]

Are you trying to win me over?

Just stating the facts.

Three posts in three days has overwhelmed you?

I think he was being sarcastic.

[Hero764]

Were you going to continue that and do an analysis of day 3 too, or is that it?

Anyways, I'll skim through the thread later today as well. I probably won't be posting a full analysis though. Waiting for kiku to post.

[Hero764]

Well, thanks for giving me the opportunity to prove that I'm not scum kiku. That probably was a bit of a risky move though. I'm not scum and I don't plan on hammering anyone yet.

And damn, this is really tough. I want to believe kiku is scum, but she's just be pro-town way too much. Feeres' reasons aren't bad(I still need to finish reading through the thread), but I just can't be sure.

Kiku:

How is a jump in activity scummy?
What do you have to say about your apparent lack of interaction w/ hockey?

Feeres:

Do you have any reasons for me to believe you are pro-town?

[Hero764]

Looking back, I don't see it as a really indicative tell here, but anytime a players activity spikes(especially in a pressure or lylo type situation) doesn't it make sense to conclude that their is some reason behind it? i.e. I find it odd that Feeres seems to have turned it up a notch at this point. He is posting alot of words and analysis but not including quotes or hard evidence.

Well he's been promising an analysis forever now, so I don't think its odd that he finally went through with it. Looks like you're grasping at straws here, which is the opposite of what we need today.

^^ This, according to the Mafiawiki, is a classic scumtell. Scum distancing themselves early on day 1 is actually quite common. Not to acknowledge that is bad enough, but then to instead use it as "proof" that he is not scum is audacious(imo).

Fair enough. Waiting to see what Feeres says.

Regarding my "apparent" lack of interaction with Hockey I can only say to go back and read the thread. I was more concerned with other players and found Tenchi's hammer much more disturbing than Hockey's L-1. When push came to shove yesterday, I looked at Hockey objectively, even though I was leaning "dumb townie" on him for most of the game. His contributions were a bit lackluster and there wasn't much else for me to "react" to.

You were more concerned with every other player(maybe a few exceptions, such as Artem, but he doesn't really count) except the one everyone else had generally come to a consensus on who was scummiest?

Being doc, I have tried to lay as low as possible and purposely avoided being drawn into arguments. I am surprised I wasn't nk'd for it, but I think I may have come off as a bit of a "harmless newb". It seems Feeres' analysis has been trying to feel both of us out as to who he could convince to vote who. His one-sided thinking seems bent on drawing us into a mislynch. The fact you aren't hammering tells me I'm right, which also confirms my day 1 suspicions. But that is neither here nor there if we don't pull this out.

Harmless newb? I for one hardly got that feeling from you tbh. You seemed like you were one of the more experienced ones in this game.

Also, could you explain how laying low leads to people getting NK'd? Seems kinda odd that you feel the need to reason why you're still alive. Actually, there is something interesting I've noticed. Nights one and two the most pro-town players were NK'd, and then on day 3 Tenchi was killed. Like wtf? Out of me, you, and Feeres, I reasoned that you were the most pro-town of us all, and it would be logical for scum(Feeres according to you) to kill you. Then Tenchi was killed, and immediately you used his kill to reason why I could be scum. Since we now know I'm not scum, this makes it look like you killed Tenchi just for that reason.

And lastly, you had said previously that Feeres was obvtown(which I challenged you for, if you recall). And so your only reasoning against him is that analysis he made, and his "jump in activity". Seems like OMGUS.

So, with all of this I'm gonna go

FoS: kikuchiyo

I'm inclined to vote for you, but I need to see how Feeres responds first.

[Hero764]

Really sorry I can't post much today or tommorow(I'll be gone all day, going to bed in like 2 minutes). I'm just going to

vote: kikuchiyo

I would've liked to see Feeres post again but I'm confident in my decision. Hope I was right.

[Hero764]

Muahahahahahaha. I tricked you all!

jk.

I was vanilla townie as well. So there were no power roles I guess. Tenchi, I don't think Feeres would still be lying at this point . Serial, nice analysis posts. Good luck in your other game that I got replaced in .

First game on the site and town wins.

Oh yeah, I don't feel bad with Hero suspecting me to death. It did get annoying since I can't put my point across with him. I'm just happy SC got between us to discuss other things. I am still looking forward to play with you again around the site, Hero.

Same to you.

[Hero764]

Town>Scum.

[Hero764]

kiku's case just had much more merit than Feeres'. I dunno if I can really explain it, kiku just seemed scummier to me(in addition to the reasons I outlined in previous posts, such as 503).

What was the reasoning behind Tenchi's lynch kiku?