Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Feeres]

Your explanation would make sense if you had random voted and then later switched to an FoS. But you random voted in the same post in which you expressed suspicion of someone. This doesn't add up. Not sure if it is scummier for you to have voted, but it seems like you are trying to avoid suspicion yourself, yet setting up a future CJ vote. Smells fishy.

I don't exactly get what you're trying to say here. Either you have misunderstood what I've said, in which case I'd like you to rephrase this, or you have applied some spin to my posts.

Why did he bother to generate the random number if he found someone suspicious?

I generated the random number BEFORE I read the thread. I checked up what was going on with him BEFORE placing a vote. I read the thread, then saw that others had already placed votes on him which were not random, so I put a FoS. Why FoS? FoS IMO puts pressure on him, he has been standing out of the crowd quite unfavorably by vote hopping, placing weird votes and having odd explanations for his votes. A FoS for me means I am considering voting him.

To my knowledge FOS does absolutely nothing except mean that you're looking at somebody closely. And random votes are specifically used to get discussion going. So therefore FOSing somebody as a substitute to random voting is just scummy. Random Voting is used to start discussions. If for some reason you don't want to random vote you should discuss the current random votes and whats going on. Placing a FOS on somebody as a substitute makes no sense! Maybe I could have understood it if you had given some reasons why. Yet placing a FOS just because you were randomly told to do so. That just adds pressure unnecesarily, and for apparently no real reason.

Are you saying that instead of FoSing I should have voted for him? I specifically substituted the vote with a FoS because I found his actions scummy for the reasons I listed above in this post. I don't follow the logic of FoS being scummy in this context, I didn't add reasons for it because I thought it was obvious enough for everyone.

He did not list a reason aside from "This would have been my random vote" And as I said, since random voting is used to make discusion. FOSing somebody already random voted without giving a reason is completely useless.

He wasn't random voted, that's why I FoS'd him. I didn't list reasons because I didn't find it necessary.

So this does:

1. Not give us any insight of what Feeres thinks of CJmiller besides being "scummy"
2. Does not describe why he is scummy
3. Says he only suspects him of being a newbie

for crying out loud, if you don't have a reason to think hes scum, and you also suspect him of being a newbie. Why the FOS? Why not just say something about his "newbishness"?

It's badly phrased I know >_> What I'm trying to say is that he definitely is a newbie, but not definitely a scum. I have more reasons to believe that he is scum than he is town though. Reasons above.

[Feeres]

I now honestly don't know if I find you more scummy now or him. For one thing this is quite unnecessary to defend someone especialy when they are on L-3. And I never even saw kikuchiyo's vote until after I posted because it took a while to gather all of my quotes. So I wasn't trying to gang up on him.

I was actually wondering why did you vote for me pretty much with the same faulty logic that kikuchiyo used. Nobody didn't even point out that you ganged up on me, this smells like WIFOM to me. I don't need people to guess what I said though, you can just ask me if something needs rephrasing.

[kikuchiyo]

I guess my issue is that your timing seems off. We are supposed to simply believe that you are telling the truth. You have no proof that your random voting technique landed on CJ, nor can you prove that you generated said vote before reading the thread. Why didn't you read the thread first? And if you found someone suspicious, why mention your "random" vote at all?

Hero: Did I say you were scum? I just think it strange that you are going to bat for someone like this. You are interpreting his posts as though he is incapable of untruths. Have you asked why he didn't generate another random vote? Have you questioned his timeline?

So

I changed my vote to FoS because he was my random vote target

, and he had already votes on him which weren't exactly random.

I am not discounting the second half of this statement, but what does CJ being the random vote target have anything to do with the FoS? Feeres claims the information is related, yet it is clearly not if Feeres claims to be suspicious of CJ as well.

[Hero764]

Hero: Did I say you were scum? I just think it strange that you are going to bat for someone like this. You are interpreting his posts as though he is incapable of untruths. Have you asked why he didn't generate another random vote? Have you questioned his timeline?

You didn't say I was scum, but hockey did, which is who that was directed at. And what the hell? Generate another random. What kind of info is that going to get us? I'll ask him though if it makes you feel better. Not sure what you mean about the timeline, it seems fine to me.

Anyways, Feeres: Why didn't you simply generate another random vote if you didn't want to land another one on CJMiller? You can vote and use the FoS at the same time, you know?

[Hockeyruler]

To my knowledge FOS does absolutely nothing except mean that you're looking at somebody closely. And random votes are specifically used to get discussion going. So therefore FOSing somebody as a substitute to random voting is just scummy. Random Voting is used to start discussions. If for some reason you don't want to random vote you should discuss the current random votes and whats going on. Placing a FOS on somebody as a substitute makes no sense! Maybe I could have understood it if you had given some reasons why. Yet placing a FOS just because you were randomly told to do so. That just adds pressure unnecesarily, and for apparently no real reason.

Are you saying that instead of FoSing I should have voted for him? I specifically substituted the vote with a FoS because I found his actions scummy for the reasons I listed above in this post. I don't follow the logic of FoS being scummy in this context, I didn't add reasons for it because I thought it was obvious enough for everyone.

In *this* post you listed the reasons. In the original post you made it sound like you were only putting FOS because voting could be dangerous, and you got his name from a random number generator. So I came to the conclusion that you were just adding, like I said before, unnecessary/useless pressure, because a random number told you to. And I say useless pressure because you did not discuss it at all. You didn't say "I find CJMiller scummy because of: ..." You didn't even say you found him scummy. Useful pressure would have been to discuss his actions or to ask for an explanation. To me this is scummy because you're making people look at CJMiller to vote for him. Yet when it comes down to it, you never actually did, just a harmless little FOS.

He did not list a reason aside from "This would have been my random vote" And as I said, since random voting is used to make discusion. FOSing somebody already random voted without giving a reason is completely useless.

He wasn't random voted, that's why I FoS'd him. I didn't list reasons because I didn't find it necessary.

Yet reading your post, like I said, it came off (to me atleast) that you were FOSing him just because of the random number generator, not because you thought he was suspicious.

So this does:

1. Not give us any insight of what Feeres thinks of CJmiller besides being "scummy"
2. Does not describe why he is scummy
3. Says he only suspects him of being a newbie

for crying out loud, if you don't have a reason to think hes scum, and you also suspect him of being a newbie. Why the FOS? Why not just say something about his "newbishness"?

It's badly phrased I know >_> What I'm trying to say is that he definitely is a newbie, but not definitely a scum. I have more reasons to believe that he is scum than he is town though. Reasons above.

Okay, so what I had thought originaly was that you thought he was a newbie and just new to the game. Therefore made mistakes even though he was town.

Hockeyruler wrote:
I now honestly don't know if I find you more scummy now or him. For one thing this is quite unnecessary to defend someone especialy when they are on L-3. And I never even saw kikuchiyo's vote until after I posted because it took a while to gather all of my quotes. So I wasn't trying to gang up on him.


I was actually wondering why did you vote for me pretty much with the same faulty logic that kikuchiyo used. Nobody didn't even point out that you ganged up on me, this smells like WIFOM to me. I don't need people to guess what I said though, you can just ask me if something needs rephrasing.

That comment was directed at Hero and not you. He had said something along the lines of us both finding fault with you. I'm confused as to what you mean by WIFOM, I'm not at all familiar with that acronym

And I wasn't guessing. Like I've said (way too many times), your original post did not say ANYTHING about thinking CJMiller was scum. Therefore, I'm not guessing, I'm going off of what you said. And like I said to Hero, I can't be expected to go off what was apparently IMPLIED, if nothing to that affect was actually SAID.




So just a little wrap up to make sure I've got it figured out right.

You think CJMiller is acting "newbish", and also you think hes acting scummy?

[Feeres]

I guess my issue is that your timing seems off. We are supposed to simply believe that you are telling the truth. You have no proof that your random voting technique landed on CJ, nor can you prove that you generated said vote before reading the thread. Why didn't you read the thread first? And if you found someone suspicious, why mention your "random" vote at all?

Yes, I can't anymore prove that I got CJ as my random result or that I rolled the dice before reading the thread. Why would I read the thread first, I thought that it's a random vote so just let it be random with no bias from other posters whatsoever. I mentioned it because I felt like it. Is there something scummy about that?

So

I changed my vote to FoS because he was my random vote target

, and he had already votes on him which weren't exactly random.

I am not discounting the second half of this statement, but what does CJ being the random vote target have anything to do with the FoS? Feeres claims the information is related, yet it is clearly not if Feeres claims to be suspicious of CJ as well.

It's relatively weakly related directly, my textual communication isn't the best ones around yes. But let me try to explain: From point A, where he is my random vote target, I go to point B, where he is the person who's posts I'm checking out through the thread, and I end up in point C, where I find him suspicious enough to place a Finger of Suspicion on him.

[Hero764]

@Hockey: WIFOM stands for Wine in Front of Me. I can't explain it very well, so you're best to have a look at the wiki page.

And Feeres you missed my question

[Feeres]

Anyways, Feeres: Why didn't you simply generate another random vote if you didn't want to land another one on CJMiller? You can vote and use the FoS at the same time, you know?

Because I didn't want to generate another random vote. I made the question earlier there that should I have just picked another random vote target then. I know I can both FoS and vote, but I decided it's better to focus on one target instead of letting my attention become spread around the place.

In *this* post you listed the reasons. In the original post you made it sound like you were only putting FOS because voting could be dangerous, and you got his name from a random number generator. So I came to the conclusion that you were just adding, like I said before, unnecessary/useless pressure, because a random number told you to. And I say useless pressure because you did not discuss it at all. You didn't say "I find CJMiller scummy because of: ..." You didn't even say you found him scummy. Useful pressure would have been to discuss his actions or to ask for an explanation. To me this is scummy because you're making people look at CJMiller to vote for him. Yet when it comes down to it, you never actually did, just a harmless little FOS.

I've noticed people FoSing each others without explicitly stating their reasons. Therefore I didn't feel it necessary to add my reasons to the initial post. Uselessness is an opinion.

Yet reading your post, like I said, it came off (to me atleast) that you were FOSing him just because of the random number generator, not because you thought he was suspicious.

With the "not random voted" I used there, I meant that people had voted for him before for valid reasons, making them genuine votes. I didn't list reasons for my FoS because I didn't think it'd be necessary.

That comment was directed at Hero and not you. He had said something along the lines of us both finding fault with you. I'm confused as to what you mean by WIFOM, I'm not at all familiar with that acronym

I was just commenting on your comment there. Must have missed the part where Hero says something like that, so I assumed that you were presenting us with the idea that it would be ganging up on me, but since you were presenting us with that idea already, it would imply that you were already aware of that and therefore wouldn't be scummy. I'm not sure if I'm completely off, but that would be a WIFOM tactic.

So just a little wrap up to make sure I've got it figured out right.

You think CJMiller is acting "newbish", and also you think hes acting scummy?

Newbish, yes, 100%, with his very odd votes (example No Lynch) and votehopping.
Scummy, somewhat, I'm saying he is feeling more scummier than an average newbie or player would. Reasons: Votehopping, reasons for votes.

And Feeres you missed my question

Nope, I just have lots to reply to.

[CJMiller]

UnFOS Hero764

because I voted for him

FOS Feeres

because what goes around comes around

[Hero764]

FOS Feeres because what goes around comes around

You're just being ridiculous now. Your explanations suck, you're openly OMGUSing, it's like you're trying to give people a reason to vote for you.

[Hockeyruler]

In *this* post you listed the reasons. In the original post you made it sound like you were only putting FOS because voting could be dangerous, and you got his name from a random number generator. So I came to the conclusion that you were just adding, like I said before, unnecessary/useless pressure, because a random number told you to. And I say useless pressure because you did not discuss it at all. You didn't say "I find CJMiller scummy because of: ..." You didn't even say you found him scummy. Useful pressure would have been to discuss his actions or to ask for an explanation. To me this is scummy because you're making people look at CJMiller to vote for him. Yet when it comes down to it, you never actually did, just a harmless little FOS.

I've noticed people FoSing each others without explicitly stating their reasons. Therefore I didn't feel it necessary to add my reasons to the initial post. Uselessness is an opinion.

Okay, I guess I would have figured that out if I hadn't been thrown off by the whole "Random Vote" thing. And yes, it is an oppinion. But Random voting is used for discusing, so I guess because of this we are discusing... so in a round about way it worked!

That comment was directed at Hero and not you. He had said something along the lines of us both finding fault with you. I'm confused as to what you mean by WIFOM, I'm not at all familiar with that acronym

I was just commenting on your comment there. Must have missed the part where Hero says something like that, so I assumed that you were presenting us with the idea that it would be ganging up on me, but since you were presenting us with that idea already, it would imply that you were already aware of that and therefore wouldn't be scummy. I'm not sure if I'm completely off, but that would be a WIFOM tactic.

I'm sorry but I've already read that wiki page and it didn't make much sense to me. :/

Unvote

I'm not fully convinced of Feeres intentions. Yet CJ and Hero are looking suspicious to me. So I'll reserve my judgement until I can atleast get an idea of what CJ's doing.

[Tenchi]

FOS Feeres because what goes around comes around

You're just being ridiculous now. Your explanations suck, you're openly OMGUSing, it's like you're trying to give people a reason to vote for you.

OMGUS = Oh My God U Suck = Means you were voting for a person just because they voted for you.

[Tenchi]

I'm sorry but I've already read that wiki page and it didn't make much sense to me. :/

WIFOM is some sort of dilemma where two explanations seem to be equally probable and they just seem to make you go around in circles.

Example.

1. Tenchi says, "Oh my god, the last NK was done to frame me because I hate Kikuchiyo so much!" (WIFOM statement)
2. Explanation 1: Tenchi is scum. He wants you to think he is being framed, to mislynch.
3. Explanation 2: Tenchi is town. He wants you to think he is being framed, to save himself, a townie, from being lynched.

The best way to check for it is to think of a statement or situation from different angles/explanations.

[Tenchi]

CJMiller: Do you think that Kikuchiyo and Hockeyruler is right/just in suspecting Feeres?

[Tenchi]

I now honestly don't know if I find you more scummy now or him. For one thing this is quite unnecessary to defend someone especialy when they are on L-3. And I never even saw kikuchiyo's vote until after I posted because it took a while to gather all of my quotes. So I wasn't trying to gang up on him.

I was actually wondering why did you vote for me pretty much with the same faulty logic that kikuchiyo used. Nobody didn't even point out that you ganged up on me, this smells like WIFOM to me. I don't need people to guess what I said though, you can just ask me if something needs rephrasing.

What statement did you feel was WIFOM?

1. The ganging up on you? Or
2. The reasoning they used to vote for you?

[Feeres]

What statement did you feel was WIFOM?

1. The ganging up on you? Or
2. The reasoning they used to vote for you?

Ok, I'll try to explain where I think there was WIFOM. I originally thought nobody had commented on him voting for me so shortly after kikuchiyo had voted for me as well. I saw him stating that he wasn't ganging up on me as WIFOM for the following reason: He thought somebody in future would say something about his ganging up on me being suspicious. Therefore he would himself bring up the ganging up on me. From this would follow the ad infinitum-reasoning that:
1. He is possibly (claims not) ganging up on me, therefore he is doing something scummy
2. He brought it up himself, therefore he isn't doing something scummy

I'm not sure if this would technically be a WIFOM since #1 is more like "what-if" as in he denies the ganging up. But even moreso, since it was brought up that Hero mentioned something about kikuchiyo and Hockeyruler both being on my case for same reasons, #2 didn't happen.

I hope this is somewhat educational to what WIFOM is, it's quite difficult concept to grasp and even I have problems with it ^^

[Tenchi]

Hockey stating that he was not ganging up on you is not WIFOM. I think the fact that he was bringing up that he wasn't ganging up on somebody, when nobody is accusing him, is more of a tell of defensiveness.

I think this summarizes what happened:

It's relatively weakly related directly, my textual communication isn't the best ones around yes. But let me try to explain: From point A, where he is my random vote target, I go to point B, where he is the person who's posts I'm checking out through the thread, and I end up in point C, where I find him suspicious enough to place a Finger of Suspicion on him.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Slaine Hayes - 1 (Artem)
Hero764 - 1 (CJMiller)

CJMiller - 3 (Slaine Hayes, Hero764, Toledo88)

Feeres - 1 (kikuchiyo)

Not Voting - 3 (Feeres, Hockeyruler, Tenchi)

5 to Lynch

[kikuchiyo]

I guess my issue is that your timing seems off. We are supposed to simply believe that you are telling the truth. You have no proof that your random voting technique landed on CJ, nor can you prove that you generated said vote before reading the thread. Why didn't you read the thread first? And if you found someone suspicious, why mention your "random" vote at all?

Yes, I can't anymore prove that I got CJ as my random result or that I rolled the dice before reading the thread.

Why would I read the thread first, I thought that it's a random vote so just let it be random with no bias from other posters whatsoever.

I mentioned it because I felt like it. Is there something scummy about that?

Tell me this: how does reading the thread first bias your dice rolling? why did you read the thread after you rolled, but before you posted?(i.e. why not roll, post, then thread. By not doing so you basically let your random vote become biased by others opinions which is exactly what you said you didn't want to happen.)

So

I changed my vote to FoS because he was my random vote target

, and he had already votes on him which weren't exactly random.

I am not discounting the second half of this statement, but what does CJ being the random vote target have anything to do with the FoS? Feeres claims the information is related, yet it is clearly not if Feeres claims to be suspicious of CJ as well.

It's relatively weakly related directly

, my textual communication isn't the best ones around yes. But let me try to explain: From point A, where he is my random vote target, I go to point B, where he is the person who's posts I'm checking out through the thread, and I end up in point C, where I find him suspicious enough to place a Finger of Suspicion on him.

Again: if your intention was to lay down a "random" vote "with no bias from other posters whatsoever", then why did you check out CJ's posts?

You seem like you are chock full of bullshit. But that's just my opinion.

UnFOS Hero764 because I voted for him
FOS Feeres because what goes around comes around

^^^ Please clarify. Do you find Feeres suspicious because they find you suspicious, or is there another reason?

"Oh my god, the last NK was done to frame me because I hate Kikuchiyo so much!"

[Feeres]

Tell me this: how does reading the thread first bias your dice rolling? why did you read the thread after you rolled, but before you posted?(i.e. why not roll, post, then thread. By not doing so you basically let your random vote become biased by others opinions which is exactly what you said you didn't want to happen.)

Again: if your intention was to lay down a "random" vote "with no bias from other posters whatsoever", then why did you check out CJ's posts?

Because it would be insanely stupid to not check them out first?

I wanted a fresh, clean start for my own deductive line. I wanted to focus on one person first, giving every person a fair chance to be my target, yet not be foolish enough to just vote for someone who has already been voted twice and reasoning it with "oh it was random".

[Tenchi]

Kikuchiyo: Given that situation, would Feeres be less suspicious if he did something differently? If so, what could have he done/said?

[Artem]

IC duties:

I "randomly voted" CJMiller before reading the thread, then I read through what had been posted earlier. So I changed my vote to FoS because he was my random vote target, and he had already votes on him which weren't exactly random. I only suspect him of being newbie atm, before he posts more I'm saying he's like 50-50 scum.

Why not read the thread first, then decide if there's even a need to vote randomly?

I specifically held off from voting him randomly because of other votes on him. A bit offtopic question, is there some recommended way of randomly voting? Like, pick a random target from the list, check he hasn't gotten votes yet, if he has been voted already then find someone else?

If there are already votes that may "prevent" you from voting randomly, maybe it's time to analyze the votes rather than add new ones?

what's the difference of being noob and noob scum. I had trouble with this last Newbie game I had. And I think I'm having the same trouble right now. Too many newbie mistakes being done, the question is, if it is a tell of anything.

It really depends on the mistake, but the best question to ask is probably "Can this mistake be made without the knowledge of everybody's alignment/game setup?". For example, a common scum slip is to inadvertently reveal something about the setup (e.g., there's a role-blocker.) Scum have more knowledge about the game, so they will sometimes "leak" that knowledge, but in general you have to decide yourself what is and is not a scum-tell. It will come with experience.

That comment was directed at Hero and not you. He had said something along the lines of us both finding fault with you. I'm confused as to what you mean by WIFOM, I'm not at all familiar with that acronym.

WIFOM stands for Wine In Front Of Me and is a reference to the Princess Bride scene where the protagonist presents a villain with two cups of wine and the latter gets himself confused with infinite recursion. A classic WIFOM argument is as follows: "Mafia would not do what I did. Therefore, I'm not Mafia", because the counter-argument is "You knew that mafia would not do that, so you did it to make the previous argument. That makes you mafia", which can be countered by infinitely recursive counter-arguments.

Hockey, let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'll explain it in more detail.

------------------------------

Very good discussion so far. I find most of the active posters to be playing very well: asking questions of each other, finding logical fallacies in each other's arguments, etc.

Personally, I'm suspicious of three players at this point:
-CJMiller, whose defense I'm not happy with and who's been laying low ever since the discussion of Feeres picked up.
-Slaine, who I suspect is lurking. Yes, I know that he's not able to make big posts until the weekend, but that's just the right excuse a mafia would use for lurking. His two-cents posts have not been enough to counter his lack of posting thus far. I'm keeping my vote here for now.
-Feeres, who I suspect less than the two above, but have some questions/concerns for:

Yes, I can't anymore prove that I got CJ as my random result or that I rolled the dice before reading the thread. Why would I read the thread first, I thought that it's a random vote so just let it be random with no bias from other posters whatsoever. I mentioned it because I felt like it. Is there something scummy about that?

Yes. Why do you want your vote to be completely unbiased? Random voting is supposed to generate discussion. If it's completely unbiased, it tells us nothing except for the fact that you like unbiased random votes. I find this suspicious because it feels that you a) don't want town to have information and b) don't want to draw attention.

Ok, I'll try to explain where I think there was WIFOM. I originally thought nobody had commented on him voting for me so shortly after kikuchiyo had voted for me as well. I saw him stating that he wasn't ganging up on me as WIFOM for the following reason: He thought somebody in future would say something about his ganging up on me being suspicious. Therefore he would himself bring up the ganging up on me. From this would follow the ad infinitum-reasoning that:
1. He is possibly (claims not) ganging up on me, therefore he is doing something scummy
2. He brought it up himself, therefore he isn't doing something scummy

Until he makes an argument that "mafia would not gang up on players", it's not WIFOM.

Both people that are "ganging up" on you are using logically sound questions and arguments. Their votes on you are not scummy and well justified (even if you disagree with them). I don't buy the theory that one or both have anticipating somebody calling them out on ganging up.

------------------------

Toledo88 needs to post something other than addendums to my IC points. While I don't find the player suspicious right now, I would say that I haven't seen much scum-hunting from them.

[CJMiller]

kikuchiyo: Yes.

[Tenchi]

kikuchiyo: Yes.

That is effectively OMGUSing.

FoS:CJMiller

Am I suspicious now, more than I was before?

[CJMiller]

I also find Feeres suspicious because he chose to vote for me (he later chose to FoS me instead) and he tries to defend himself by saying the choice was "random". I don't buy it -- he's lying like cake. Mafia scum cake.