Newbie 769 - Game Over

[Feeres]

Only thing which would bug me in the whole power role discussion is that by telling the doc to protect someone who is obviously town, the scum would very well see that they don't want to target anyone who appears obviously town. Then again, the doc would not protect a person who is not obviously town knowing that the scum won't target obviously town people after that has been said. A WIFOM situation perhaps.

Hockeyruler's defenses haven't been very convincing, him putting up distractions for the town lately and such behavior are pretty strong evidence against him. On the other hand, Toledo hasn't convinced me at all, which I see more scummy. Since there is quite some debate still on which one to lynch, I'm leaving my vote on Toledo since by my judgement he will be a better target. I won't change this vote because I will be asleep when the deadline comes.

Hard to speculate yet what D3 might bring to us if we lynch a townie, whether it is Hockey or Toledo we lynch. I would not clear the other from suspicion just because the other one turned out town. If, by the looks of it atm, we lynch Hockey today and he turns town, I would be looking at Toledo still as a possible scum. Who else might be scum in that case, I don't know yet, the next day will tell.

[Tenchi]

I will try to get Kikuchiyo's point. I actually strongly agree with her suspicions:

Firstly - I think I made it clear I was letting people know my thoughts on the roles. I am not claiming to be a role or not be a role. Nor was I directing choices, it was letting everyone know my thoughts which I have quite consistently done. Even then, I didn't give explicit instructions, just told people why I thought some choices were better than others.

Let me also quote your suggestions:

A. "I think a doctor should be aiming at one of the most 'town-y' people in the group." (AKA Protect SC. Obviously, at that point, that everyone agrees of your towniness.)
B. "As for a cop, I would suggest that picking the non-lynched out of Hockey vs Toledo (assuming one of them is lynched) is also possibly not the best idea."
C. "I think an investigation on someone like Tenchi might end up being much more valuable."

You just tossed Power roles in a spin of WIFOM! Consider these plausibilities:

1A. What if you are scum? You are actually directing them to protect scumYou. In my opinion, the Doctor should use his gut, not the perceived to be "most towny people in the group".
1B. You are assuming that it is going to be a Hockey-Toledo back to back lynch, in which case, if we follow your suggestion of not lynching the other person, we go into a D3 without knowing if either Hockey or Toledo is innocent. Therefore, we have a chance of tunneling on the remains of Hockey or Toledo, which we all know tunneling is (generally) bad.
2B. You are also forgetting that confirming one scum does not automatically mean that the cop should come out and say "OMG WE CAUGHT SCUM". The advantage of a hidden cop knowing scum is that he can fish for reactions on D3. And see any inconsistencies between the earlier days.
1C. You subtly suggested that I be investigated. A quite sneaky way of deflecting the investigation off you. We did that as scum before. The best way of scum dealing with an impending investigation is to use "reason" to "logically" find a good target, possibly deflecting the investigation away from the real targets.

In other words: Cop/Doc just disregard all this role discussion and use your damn gut.

I can't see much in that post that would benefit me as scum.

See 1A and 1C above.

Thirdly - It can't be a 'scummy post because it has shown myself not to be a power role which has narrowed down scum's nk choice'.

I think the term is not scummy.
The actions you have done are not pro-town.
However, my points 1A and 1C actually give clarity on why your post could be taken as scummy.


Anyway, I do find a Toledo-SC pairing plausible, which puts me back to...

Unvote, Vote: Toledo

[Tenchi]

Only thing which would bug me in the whole power role discussion is that by telling the doc to protect someone who is obviously town, the scum would very well see that they don't want to target anyone who appears obviously town. Then again, the doc would not protect a person who is not obviously town knowing that the scum won't target obviously town people after that has been said. A WIFOM situation perhaps.

SIMULPOST <3 <3 <3

[Tenchi]

Bolding stuff

As for the BS reasons:

1. That trying to help town power roles is scummy. I shouldn't even have to explain this one, it isn't only up to the doctor on who to protect. We work together as a town so the PR's can make a better night choice.

Making a night choice, as a role, is full of WIFOM. Don't even bother helping them/me/us out.

2. That not suggesting yourself to be investigated is scummy because it benefits scum if you are scum. Ugh, I can't even begin to explain how meaningless this is. Him not suggesting to get investigated is a null tell at best. If he's town it benefits town by not wasting an investigation, you realize this right? There was 100% absolutely nothing scummy about saying that.

Again, what SC said is not a null-tell, it is also not scummy.
It was not pro-town. It slightly undermined town, but did not help scum directly.

3. That a post can be scummy without actually doing anything for scum. This just doesn't make sense.

Very debatable. But not enough to undermine Kikuchiyo's points.

4. That him dragging on the argument is distracting the town and there's no reason for town to act like that. You're the one who keeps dragging it on. He defended himself, and you just respond defending your bs reasoning.
Kikuchiyo and SC did not "drag it on" or "distracted town".

Discussions like these are actually healthy, well except for the part where SC gave "advice" on how to use roles. If somebody is slowing down this scumhunt, it will be Toledo and Hockey. They have given us nothing.

Also, you seem to have a problem personally with serial(calling him senseless, calling him a baby, accusing him of trying to dictate votes, accusing him of acting like he's above suspicion, etc.)

Ad hominem. If you don't like Kikuchiyo on using those phrases, then don't accuse her of having a personal problem with SC. On another note, "senseless" and "trying to dictate votes" are actually valid suspicions, as long as they are supported.

Is anybody else noticing the sudden duet going on here?

I can't share an opinion with someone?

Serial has so far been the most town player in the game, to go off like this and just start trying to MAKE him scum with all these reasons is just dumb and unneeded. If he does something scummy then yes you have every right to suspect him, but his post was not scummy, not by any means. Could he be scum? Yes. Are there more probable scums? Absolutely.

Again, Kikuchiyo is not campaigning against his/SC's lynch. However, she and some others noticed how his/SC's post is "not sounding right".

[Hero764]

Regardless, I have addressed the "bs" yet you seem to simply ignore my reasons. I am hoping it is because of the climate as I previously noted, but it certainly isn't going to help us if we don't deal with the issue. For those of us here tomorrow, try and return with a level head.

Your reasons weren't very good.

A. "I think a doctor should be aiming at one of the most 'town-y' people in the group." (AKA Protect SC. Obviously, at that point, that everyone agrees of your towniness.)

Could you be more obvious in putting words into his mouth? Seriously. This bothers me a ton, and my suspicions of you have gone up.

Making a night choice, as a role, is full of WIFOM. Don't even bother helping them/me/us out.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Again, what SC said is not a null-tell, it is also not scummy.
It was not pro-town. It slightly undermined town, but did not help scum directly.

Cool.

Very debatable. But not enough to undermine Kikuchiyo's points.

How is it debatable? If you aren't helping scum, how could it possibly be scummy?

Discussions like these are actually healthy, well except for the part where SC gave "advice" on how to use roles. If somebody is slowing down this scumhunt, it will be Toledo and Hockey. They have given us nothing.

I'm not the one who said anything against the discussion, she was.

Again, Kikuchiyo is not campaigning against his/SC's lynch. However, she and some others noticed how his/SC's post is "not sounding right".

Sounded fine to me. I don't see anything wrong with trying to help townie PR's out. I think the problem you guys have with him is that he's been so protown that if he's scum he's basically getting a free ride through the game. Paranoia basically. I don't see any reason to think that way though, there are scummier players at the moment.

It looks Hockey's not going to get enough votes for a lynch at the moment. I don't think the case against Toledo has more merit than hockey's, as it all seems to be based around his role fishing, which could very well be a noob townie mistake. We can't have a no lynch though, so I'll do as promised and

Vote: Toledo88

. To the gallows with ye.

[Hero764]

Tenchi(and kiku to some extent): Why are you so concerned with power roles using their gut? You REALLY don't think they should take any advice at all? The town needs to work together to win, saying otherwise is pretty scummy.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, I'm not going to make a long post, because I think we're going around in circles. I'll make a few general points and we can get on with the rest of the day.

1) Issue one - Telling the power roles, if any, who to vote for is scummy.
I disagree that I told any doc to protect me. In fact, I would not tell a doc to protect any one person unless they were a cop, because otherwise the scum can easily pick around their decision. However, it is good for the town for the scum to be worried about killing the most pro-town roles. If the scum are forced to kill suspicious players, our choices become more defined. So by encouraging the power roles (if any) to look at set ranges (be they for protection and investigation), I was encouraging them to use their vote wisely. To those who feel it's up to the power roles - good on you, you needn't offer any advice. And to the power roles themselves, if any, they of course can use it however they like. However, I'm part of a townie team, which I think people forget too easily. They may well be a useful tool for us to use to win the game and I want to win the game.

2) Serialscum is well positioned - he must be scum!
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Too_Townie
Ask yourself why I would be well-positioned. If the answer is because I've consistently posted strong, townie posts, encouraged us to openly examine more players, wrote solid logical points - well perhaps there's a simpler explanation. It's not enough to say I'm well-positioned, you have to explain why my actions would be made as part of a scum team. If I am scum with Toledo, my opening posts would have been a stupid, ridiculous move.

3) Ad hom

Noone has really done much ad hominum stuff - I personally thought the worst was asking why I feel you should be allworshipping my feet, which I thought was a bit much. But I'm a big boy, I can take it

4) I can see Serial/Toledo.

Well, you can probably see faries at the bottom of the garden.(This is not meant to be a personal attack to anyone - this is meant to say you might be able to see them, but without evidence we don't have to believe you.) Read my earliest posts and explain my actions in light of that team. In fact, read all of my posts and explain why they benefit a Toledo/Serial scumteam.

I think this has been the biggest point of contention. Yes, kiku, you're allowed your opinion. Yes, I'm also allowed to try to defend myself. But the most frustrating thing is when someone 'feels' you're scummy without doing any of the work to try and show it via your posts and game strategy. Anything is possible, but if you state it with an FoS you can't retreat back to 'it's just a feeling'. Stand up and find some evidence to support it.

5) Given the gulf in understanding between kiku, tenchi, hero and myself on this point, I am starting to feel there may be some scum-motivated deliberate misunderstanding here. I wouldn't mind Feeres posting a little more on the issue to see if we can get some kind of consesnsus, Hockey too if he could. This could be valuable information tomorrow.

6) No one has still even challenged the reasons I gave in 341, 381, 383 and 385 as to why I switched to Hockey, that were more than reasonable. I actually asked several times that if you continue this you would please address them and you still haven't.

[SerialClergyman]

Also, Tenchi, there's no contradiction in giving advice to power roles but wanting them to chose for themselves. I gave a rough outline of the area in which I would place my action were I a NC role and why.

Whoops - that looks like the hammer! The town holds it's breath!

[Tenchi]

HOLY COW... DUN DUN DUNHHHHHHHHH...

(I will reply to the other things some other time. I'm too anxious.)

[Tenchi]

Also, Tenchi, there's no contradiction in giving advice to power roles but wanting them to chose for themselves. I gave a rough outline of the area in which I would place my action were I a NC role and why.

Hmm... again, I won't hold it too much against you. our actions have been noted however. On the other hand, I will reiterate that any advice the Power Peeps take should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Tenchi]

Tenchi(and kiku to some extent): Why are you so concerned with power roles using their gut? You REALLY don't think they should take any advice at all? The town needs to work together to win, saying otherwise is pretty scummy.

Advice on how to use roles, at this point, is full of WIFOM. We would go around in circles since we don't even know who is who. And the only information a Power Role has at this point is the fact that he/she is a Townie... nothing else. From that, he/she should deduce on his own what is the best course of action.

Again, the things that concern me in discussing how roles should be used are:

1. Could possibly out the people who have the roles.
2. Could possibly out the people who DONT have the roles, narrowing an NK choice.
3. Discussing it is full of WIFOM.
4. "Logic" is used by scum to sway investigations away from themselves.

[kikuchiyo]

Just checking in before bed. Apparently there is no need to move my vote. I hope we are right on this one. Serial, you are being awfully defensive. I would prefer not to speculate to much on scum pairings etc. any further than I have. We made our choice, let's not give scum any more fuel for tomorrow, things may be very difficult, especially if Toledo flips town. Tenchi, thank you for seeing my pov. I know I'm not crazy. I feel like I am being mischarcterized to a great extent in this discussion. Anyhow, good luck!

*crosses fingers*

[SerialClergyman]

Epic hate Vel-Rahn for making me go to bed not knowing. F5, F5, F5....

You'll get over it

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Final Day 2 Vote Count

Tenchi - 1 (Toledo88)

Toledo88 - 4 (Feeres, kikuchiyo, Tenchi, Hero764)

Hockeyruler - 1 (SerialClergyman)

Not Voting - 1 (Hockeyruler)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Monday, May 4th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

All that arguing and the results of the lynching are the same as yesterday. The Council has it's work cut out for it!

Toledo88,

Townie

, lynched Day 2

Night has begun. Those of you with night actions must submit your choices before Friday, May 8th.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

A long night is followed by a harsh discovery. The Council's chances are dwindling, and quickly. Can they pull it together?

SerialClergyman,

Townie

, killed Night 2

Day 3 has begun. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is the end of Friday, May 29th.

[SerialClergyman]

Bah! Stupid big mouthed bullet magnet!

Go town!

[Toledo25]

Am I surprised that the scum only kills ICs? They're really... scummy

Go town! [/bah]

[Hero764]

We should've gone with hockey...

Anyways... I'm pretty sure Tenchi and Hockey are scum together. I would like to see more from Feeres since I'm not entirely decided on him. Kiku has been protown up until late day 2, and her attack of serial isn't looking good right now that its clear serial wasn't lying about anything(shocker...). The fact that Tenchi jumped right on in the attack with kiku makes all the scummier though. Hockey is just as bad as yesterday.

Vote: Hockeyruler

same reasons as yesterday.

[kikuchiyo]

Today is lylo. Perhaps we should be using FoS instead of votes?

I will try and post more later, but I'd rather not rush a lynch.

[Tenchi]

FoS:HockeyRuler

Start talking.

(I would have voted for him if I hadn't read Kiku's post.)

[kikuchiyo]

What exactly has Hockey done that he needs to talk about? For all intents and purposes, I steered the lynch yesterday, and yet here, in lylo, you ask Hockey for some explanation?

FoS: Tenchi

You buddyed up to me hard yesterday and I am wondering if you are now trying to push the easiest mislynch or if you are trying to bus for credibility. Either way, your first post in lylo seems odd.

Would now be an appropriate time for role claiming?

[Tenchi]

Well unless somebody has an innocent(s) to narrow down the investigation then yes. Otherwise, then no.

On the other hand, I have asked Hockeyruler a few times regarding his suspicions and, as part of a case against him, have mentioned that he is very unwilling to step on any shoes in D2. I also asked him who his suspects were, if it was not him. He never answered.

If there was somebody who was really adamant and tried to push a Hockey lynch, it was SC (and to some extent Hero since he stuck his vote there for a while). You, on the other hand, suspected me in Hero vs Tenchi and SC in Day 2.

Stop hogging credit. Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

[Tenchi]

FIXING:

Well unless somebody has an innocent(s) to narrow down the investigation then yes. Otherwise, then no.

On the other hand, I have asked Hockeyruler a few times regarding his suspicions and, as part of a case against him, have mentioned that he is very unwilling to step on any shoes in D2. I also asked him who his suspects were, if it was not him. He never answered.

If there was somebody who was really adamant and tried to push a Hockey lynch, it was SC (and to some extent Hero since he stuck his vote there for a while). You, on the other hand, suspected me in Hero vs Tenchi and SC in Day 2.

Stop hogging credit. Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

[kikuchiyo]

What's with the fix?

Who's "hogging the credit"?

Now, I'm REALLY curious on what Hockeyruler is.

This is lylo. We need to lynch for scumminess, not curiosity. I found Hockey's "non" responses yesterday quite dubious, however, I am curious to see how long Hero is going to leave his vote out there. Without a scum quicklynch, I am wondering if it will be safe to assume that one of them is scum.

Feeres: Have you any analysis? Do you feel that Hockey is a safe lynch for today?