Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[populartajo]

/confirming.

[populartajo]

/confirm. im excited about a five player game!

Too easy.

Vote: afatchic

[populartajo]

Double EBWOP. I just realized 'tajo was populartajo, putting him at L-1 3 posts in.

Unvote, Vote crazy

. you was scum last time i played with you. once scum always scum.

Confirm vote: afatchic.

[populartajo]

Well i just felt it was a dangerous spot to be in, because i normally don't pay attention to votecounts in the RVS, and just vote whoever i feel like it when i look at the player list. So if any one else plays the way i do, popular may have been lynched in the first couple post.

Okay. I can buy this.

Unvote.

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what do you think of my vote?

[populartajo]

Crazy, Artem and Slicey, what are the exact reasons for your agreement with my vote?

[populartajo]

There is no punchline. I like short random stages and when people talk so I can scumhunt better when I reread. So far, I have some weak reads that can or can not be developed during this game (depending of the player).
Now, Im waiting for Slicey for next question. But feel free to answer the following ones (all of you). You can also ask me questions .
1. How experienced would you consider?
2. How do you scumhunt?

[populartajo]

Prob me. Meh, afatchic is null. Ive seen panicking town and scum doing that. He played horribly in a game as town (Near vanilla, IIRC). Slicey, he was town in a game i am with him and he played horribly so I really dont know with so little said.
Crazy and artem seem more experienced and obv Im going to have a harder time trying to analyze them. There is something interesting tough. Artem do you really think your vote on afatchic is justified?
In conclusion is so early in the game to get a good read on everyone and with many of you contributing so... (shrug).

[populartajo]

Prodded. More tonight.

[populartajo]

I just got back from an unexpected trip. Dont do anything crazy until I come back. Later.

[populartajo]

No no no dont replace me. Im here rereading.

[populartajo]

Ok people. First of all, apologies for not posting a lot. Im having a lot of work here, traveling and such. You are free to check my posts in other games and compare them with my normal activity in the site and youll notice that Ive been neglecting games like crazy.
Things still are difficult for me but they will settle down soon luckily. If things go crazy enough Ill ask for a replacement but for now..

Obvious things from a reread.

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I

really

think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

2) Artem and Crazy

2a)I was having a bad feeling about Artem at the beginning of the game but I really think he is trying to help. Since when lurkiness indicated GF status? Why do you think juls is town?

2b)Crazy started good but somehow has become unreadable to me. Do you sincerelly support afatchic's case? What do you think of Juls?

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a remote possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...,, Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

I should be careful with them since I know they are both experienced. Will reread them with more time tomorrow.

3) Right now Im leaning Juls scum with Crazy/Artem as scumpair possibility.

3a) Juls first vote and unvote for Artem is weird... but then she went crazy against afatchic for things that IMO dont deserve this post.

c) I am voting for you because it is clear you understand the dynamic of this game. Yet you put someone L-1 and switched your vote within 2 minutes to start the game. In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded. I have seen scum play the innocent townie and act as if they don't understand the rules. Next, you hypocritically challenged pop and Artem for not having votes on anyone. And you just added one more...you say Crazy is not scumhunting but the closest thing to scum hunting I have seen out of you is asking why pop and Artem hasn't voted.

This really feels as scum exaggerating a case against an easy target.

And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type.

Why?

[populartajo]

EBWOP

Vote: Juls.

[populartajo]

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?
I have played with afatchic before and, no offense intended, one player can play 300+ games and still be a newbie (playing poorly). This is the feeling I have when rereading aftachic.
Of course you can disagree but do you really think that the possibility of he being scum is more powerful than the one of he being townie playing poorly?

[populartajo]

@tajo: All I get from that post is afatchic is a newb and Artem/Crazy are experienced so that only leaves Juls to vote for.

Please read better.
[quote"Juls"]Post 81 should be included in your selective quote. Post 83 is additional elements I noticed about afatchic and expands on my suspicions from post 81. Maybe it should have said "I am

also

voting you because..."[/quote]
So-so reasons dont make one terribly weak reason good enough for a vote, ya know? Point c) of 83 is totally an exaggeration from your part, do you agree?

I didn't mean it as a certainty. I meant I could see the possibility. Because a) I felt you were lurking and b) I could see where a Godfather would lurk on D1 in order not to draw suspicion because if the GF is lynched it is a town insta-win

Hint, I wasnt lurking. Thx for

fixing

things, though.

[populartajo]

You think me and Artem are a scum-team? I thought Artem said that he thought afatchic was newbtown...

He supported the wagon at some point. Notice the (ed) in my original post.

I don't see the case on Juls, really... I don't see why the vote/unvote quick like that is scummy (weird, yes... scummy, why?),

I said it was weird. I never said it was scummy.

and her case on afatchic seems fine to me.

Doesnt seem fine to me.

[populartajo]

I don't see how "poor play" can make someone town. How do we know he isn't scum using WIFOM by buddying up to you, trying to confirm you as town (or scum)?

Precisely because we dont know.
You see, my point is that afatchic

can

be playing a master plan as scum but as I said he fits more the criteria of a townie playing poorly than the calculating scum trying to appear playing poorly. See my point?
Town should always consider all the possibilities. You and Juls going all-attack mode against him and not leaving him the oportunity or the chance to be townie playing poorly, really make me wonder about you.
You know what do I think about the easy target, dont you Crazy?

[populartajo]

Point c) of post 83 is what catched my interest but lets see al the post.

a) You are at L-2. Vote count on THIS page.

Reason for being scum? No.

b) The only TRUE pressure vote is the L-1 vote because if you want everyone to have a vote on somebody and have no one at L-1 that means that we have to do a little round robin where everyone has one vote. Wow...awesome pressure.

Reason for being scum? No.

c) I am voting for you because it is clear you understand the dynamic of this game. Yet you put someone L-1 and switched your vote within 2 minutes to start the game.

Null tell and some of you agree, IIRC.

In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded. I have seen scum play the innocent townie and act as if they don't understand the rules.

I havent checked the wiki for this game. Am I scum too?

Next, you hypocritically challenged pop and Artem for not having votes on anyone.

Yeah, afatchic is a hypocrit. Is he scum?

And you just added one more...you say Crazy is not scumhunting but the closest thing to scum hunting I have seen out of you is asking why pop and Artem hasn't voted.

Townie playing poorly or scum trying to appear playing poorly? Thats the dilemma.

[populartajo]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" could?

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

[populartajo]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" is something poor scum would do? What about frustrated townie trying to help his team?

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

I'm not discounting afatchic being town... but if you think he is, I want to hear your argument.

From what I understand, you basically said that afatchic was either poor-town or crafty-scum, yes? Well, what in particular did he do that would only be possible as scum if it was part of a brilliant scheme?

Playing poorly.

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I really think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

[populartajo]

Also, in the same post you both:
-Suspect Crazy/me of following Juls on her case;
-Accuse Juls of exaggerating a case against afatchic based on the early L-1 arguments, and the hypocritical "why the no vote" question (among others), which were not originally Juls's.

So, which one is it? A lot of players suspected afatchic at the beginning of the game (and rightly so). You seem to be grasping at straws to try and pin "your case is stolen/exaggerated/based on poor arguments" argument on somebody.

This is what I posted:

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a

remote

possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...

So its pretty obvious that the possibility Im considering the most is Juls scum with Crazy/Artem scumpair.
................
Now, about afatchic. I agree that many suspected afatchic at the beginning, including me. Suspicions went off with afatchic answering as a weak player, null tell in my book. Juls however brought these things again in post 83 and really exaggerated them. Just as an example,

Am I the only one that thinks that her attacks for not reading the wiki are not an exaggeration?

...............
Artem, can you explain why do you think Im scum?

[populartajo]

Will respond to Crazy when I have the time.

[populartajo]

I reread Juls' post... and you are really twisting her words there, don'tya think? Her case was that afatchic was playing ignorant (again, he doesn't need to be brilliant to pull it off, feigning ignorance about the setup to appear town is fairly common) Juls was not attacking afatchic for not reading the wiki; that's just ridiculous.

I definitely think Im not wrong in this.

In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded.

I mean, what does this sentence try to achieve? Why should afatchic have read the wiki and why is this used as an attack or evidence to support "playing ignorant" theory? See my point?

@Tajo: Please tell me if you have ever played with afatchic where he was scum?

No, I havent. I have played twice with him and he was town playing poorly. Like in this game.

I'm doubting myself a lot with your recent play. However, here are a few flags:
-You asked questions and never analyzed the responses. It's a pet peeve of mine when players start to "poll" everybody because they want "to get the conversation going". Such players only appear to be helpful, but in reality generate no really useful content;

I DID analyze the responses. What are you talking about? I came to the conclusion that afatchic was not scummy/ prob poor player and removed my vote from him. I came to the conclusion that you and Crazy were experienced. What? Did you want me to find scum in page 2?
Geez, acording to your logic, people lurking are scum. People trying to generate conversation are scum. Where is the line?

-The vague "It's interesting.." or "It's noteworthy" that you never pursue;

If I find something interesting I comment it on thread. Im looking for an answer and if Im cool with your answer I stop wondering about it. Its the obvious process, neh?

Laying low at the beginning, then coming out with guns blazing after your V/LA, as if you're trying to appease the town (the mod?) and make up for not posting much.

Dude, shit happens. I have already told you to check my level of contribution in all my current games. I have been neglecting every game Im in in this period. Things have settled down, luckily and you can see how Im improving my participation in all games.

-You're accusing Crazy of not leaving much possibility for afatchic being town, yet you're doing exactly the same thing with Juls.

Ok, I see your point. Ill tell you how I think. There is this pet peeve of mine about easy targets. Crazy and Juls prob know what Im talking about since we were in another game together.

In every game of mafia there is scum and town. Scum need to generate mislynches of townie to win. In the majority of my games there are town players playing poorly that become easy targets for scum, at least for one post. I have catched scum all my time here using this theory. And trust me, it works.

So, I think its easy to establish the analogy. Afatchic is prob the easy target. Compare his level of gaming and reasoning with Juls that seems at least a little more experienced with her elaborations. Juls is here the scum looking for the mislynch and it fits with the idea of she exagerating her case against afatchic to make him look worse than he should, soemthing a townie shouldnt be doing.

.

[populartajo]

EBWOP.
Forgot about that.

Also, are you waiting for everybody to answer my question, before you come up with the best answer that suits you?

What question are you talking about?

[populartajo]

Dang, "that" should be "this".

[populartajo]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

Have no idea how I missed this but I think the answer is obvious.
I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

[populartajo]

Also, if somebody is playing poorly (being an "easy target"), how do you differentiate between scum and town that are building a case on him/her?

If Juls's case is an overexaggeration, then afatchic is not guilty of the things she's accusing him of. And if he's not guilty of those things, is he still an easy target? And if so, what kind of a case is not an overexaggeration?

We have an interesting example here.
I really think Juls case is an exaggeration of things that do deserve some scrutiny but not to the levels of Juls' attacks. Thats why afatchic was mildy suspected at the beginning of the day and thats why we didnt peg her as obvscum in the first pages of the game. This means that she is mildly guilty of things but not the levels of obvscum that Juls is trying to explain.
Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

[populartajo]

Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me

but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

I think this is a scum slip.

How do you know I'm town? You were suspecting me as Juls's partner not two posts ago.

You were mocking my points against you. Now all of a sudden, my case is a good example of a townie non-exaggerated case.

/facepalm. Why do I have to face these kind of players everytime?

Please, read my post better. This isnt a scum slip first because Im not scum. Second I used your case against me as an example of a non-exageratted post that needed clarification from my part. I explained it, you didnt ask more explanations, so I assume its all good. Yours, although wrong in some aspects, it a good post coming from a reasonable perspective.

BUT

You are experienced and you prob know this already. You know that scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town. Your queries feel protown, Im not sure about you.
I think you are more prob town than Juls but you also

can

be scum with her. I mean, look, the possibilities arent much and considering all the possibilities again is what we should be doing now.

Also, this:

I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

is wishy-washy. I think you're trying to distance yourself from your buddy Crazy, but leave enough room to not commit to wanting to vig him. (Not that vigging would be up to you, if Juls got lynched and flipped town.)

No. I just cant decide between you and Crazy.

[populartajo]

Artem, just curious, what posts from Juls feel protown?

[populartajo]

I don't buy the "I don't know how to read experienced players" card. This is not your first game here either. I'm sure that not everybody you've played with in the past was a newbie. You want to appear as if you've nailed afatchic and Juls, but having troubles with me and Crazy, because we're somehow more experienced. Just an FYI, afatchic played more games than me. I'm yet to complete my first ten games.

Ok, I think its time to draw a line between being newbie and playing poorly. At first I though afatchic was a newbie because I played with him in a newbie game (he was a newbie) not much ago. Now we know he isnt that newbie. But do you agree that he is playing poorly?
There is a big difference with you, Crazy and Juls. Any of you, as scum, have more probabilities of tricking me than afatchic. For obvious reasons. Thats why I cant decide with such facility if you are scum or not. Geez, this game isnt that easy.

Besides, newb-scum also understand the concept of "scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town."

Yes but they have more probabilities of sucking at it than an experienced scum.

I just really can't see a mafia making it. I've been very careful not to drop any hints that I suspect Crazy. Why would a mafia come out and start accusing my accuser, when it's not even clear what my stance on them is? It doesn't make sense from a buddying perspective, but it does make sense from a scum-hunting perspective, because Crazy's arguments have been far-reaching.

What about Juls distancing from Crazy, specially knowing that she has been going all-attack mode against afatchic but not of his another suspects?

In turn, will you tell me why you suspect Crazy? Since I think that you two are buddies, I'd like to see you spend sometime describing your thoughts about him.

I suspect everyone that jumped against afatchic. I assume one scum was aggressive (Juls) and the other is trying to be subtle. Thats why its hard to decide between you and Crazy. There is some subtle defending of Juls in some posts. Im not too sure about that arguments that have been far-reaching. Could you point me to them?

[populartajo]

You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

Sorry, I should clarify. You made it look like my points against you are ridiculous and obviously wrong and now you're saying that I had a reasonable perspective.

I never said they were ridiculous. They are in their majority wrong but I can also see town asking clarifications or things that arent clear at first glance. My point is that you looked for things you wanted an answer with no necessity of exaggeration.

[populartajo]

Unvote, vote populartajo

Tajo has now worked his way to the top of my scum list. He is taking my least important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum and hammering it as the only reason. And he is using that sole reason for claiming I am scum.

ORLY?
What is your important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum?
Even more, do you think I am scum with afatchic?

[populartajo]

Ok, just checking if you wouldnt look for others.

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?

In order of what I feel is most important to least:

• 1. Complete lack of scum-hunting (implied if not explicitly said in Post 85)
  2. Random vote on Crazy that he says was "to pressure" Crazy (noted in Post 78)
  3. Hypocritically (and reaching) challenging Crazy and Artem for not voting. This looks like an attempt to build a weak case on either or the two.
  4. Making irrational vig threats. I can see scum doing this as a way to intimidate a townie to remove their vote. As I said before, I think he is pushing it so hard that it doesn't seem like a natural townie reaction. Instead of doing this, I would expect a town to answer my accusations calmly and logically.
  5. OMGUSing and acting emo because he played with me in another game.
  6. Questioning the rules early in the game. I have seen too many times someone ask the question "how many scum are there in this sort of game?" when they are scum. I consider this type of question a minor scum tell especially when it is noted clearly in the rules.

1. Could he be town playing poorly? Yes or no?
2. Why is this a scumtell?
3. We agree that afatchic is a hypocrit. How is he reaching?
4. We disagree here. Why would a town answer your accusations calmyly and logically if he is about to be lynched and you accuse him with weak and exaggerated attacks?
5. Not a scumtell.
6. Not a scumtell.

So, at any point in your reasoning, the idea of afatchic being town has crossed your mind?

[populartajo]

Marathon Day absorbed me yesterday and I really dont want to play mafia for a day. Cy tomorrow.

[populartajo]

Juls, one question before I reread all that has been posted.
Has your opinion of me changed after the War in Heaven marathon game?

[populartajo]

@tajo: Not really. I think it is like comparing apples and oranges. In a fast paced game like that you fly by the hip whereas in a game like this you have more time to be calculated and maticulous. To be EXTREMELY honest I spent 3/4 of that game trying to figure out when I had heal/hurt charges. I think that's why I slipped under the radar. I was genuinely confused. Did anything in that game change your opinion about me?

No cuz you lurked
I was thinking more in the idea that I pegged Cybele as town playing poorly and we commented about this. Can you make the analogy here with afatchic and tell me if it could influence your read on me in this game?

[populartajo]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

[populartajo]

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

For the first one, I explained why I thought that was bull-crap. You accused afatchic for a certain reason. After he explained, that reason still didn't change. The point of a defense is not to give out townie points, but it's to clear your name of what you originally did. The same facts were true before his "defense," and the same facts were true after.

-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

You voted Tajo for "the events that have happened since my last post." Why would you think I would assume that to mean "because Tajo has continued to lurk" instead of "since what afatchic said about Tajo." Someone lurking is not an "event," you know.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

Because, as I understood your original case, you based your vote on Tajo completely on afatchic's buddying up to him. (Maybe that's not true, but you could see how I could interpret it my way.)

Look, Artem, I'm not saying my case on you is perfect, but I don't think it's as scummy or "far-reaching" as you say. What you're really doing is attacking me for scum-hunting. Should I just hold my opinions until I get a perfect, "X is obvscum" case?

Crazy, who do you think is scum?

Mod: prod afatchic.

[populartajo]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

Yep, my bet is still on you and Crazy and between the two of you I feel that you're more likely the GF than Crazy.

I still think Crazy is trying to appear townie like he would in a non-vengeful game.

And I still think that you tearing apart my point against you and then calling my case a good example of a townie case is inconsistent. I know Crazy will jump all over me with this: but you didn't get any townie points for your responses.

After afatchic checks in and posts an update on his thoughts, I say we decide on somebody to lynch. I think that everybody has posted enough thoughts to know who's suspicious of who, that if we mislynch the vigilante should be able to make a good choice.

Its not inconsistent. Ive told you that your case is a good example of a case being wrong but coming from a townie perspective. Not because you are town it means you should be right everytime.
Why I am more likely GF?
No more comments of afatchic and Juls?

[populartajo]

Oh yeah, I forgot I was supposed to say why Artem/Juls were the scumteam. I will later, though.

My other top picks are in my last post, there.

What happened to afatchic?

[populartajo]

Juls, did you check his play as town too?

From my perspective I think afatchic is prob town playing poorly. Why from your perspective he cant be doing that, or at least have a neutral behaviour in this game?

Why are YOU so sure he is scum? Ive given you reasons to make you rethink afatchic behavior and that Ive seen a bazillion of townies playing poorly being lynched D1 all the time. Have you?. The thing that really bugs me is WHY are you so blind to that possibility?

What are your current thought of Crazy?

Why do you think I am scum with afatchic? Just becuase Im defending him or there is anything else?

Why do you think Artem is town?

[populartajo]

I did not read his games as town but I did notice more often than when he is scum that he stayed in the game much longer. As scum he gets early attention. He even gets it when he replaces in almost immediately.

Can you read any game he plays as town, specially the ones I played with him?

Can afatchic be town playing poorly? Sure...but of the people in this game I think he is the most scummy. Why can't you open your eyes up to that instead of having me bend to your will?

I am considering that possibility. I just dont find it more probable than he playing poorly. Im explaining you why.

I put forth a lot of effort to try to show you where I am coming from and all I see from you is excuses for him. And being that I think you are the other scum, why would I trust your instincts on afatchic?

I appreciate your effort but you dont have a case other than null-tells and things

you

consider scummy but that in my experience arent exact indicatives od scum. Have you ever been in a wagon of a townie playing poorly before?

Why are you so blind to the possibility he is scum?

I am not blind. I have already explained why I think he is more probable town than scum. You are ignoring my points.

If we lynch you are afatchic and you flip town then he would definately seem like the next best option.

The game would be over, genius.

A large part of it is you defending him but it also comes from him defending you as well. He called you pro-town real early and it just felt weird. I still don't see how he thought you were scum-hunting more than anyone else.

Could be the questions I made at the beginning, couldnt be?

Also, you are completely dismissing my points so I don't really get good feelings about you on that point.

Like you are doing?

It doesn't feel like you are trying to work with me, it feels like you are trying to work against me despite every effort I am making to work with you.

So, Im trying to prevent a potential mislynch and Im the one not working with you in lynching the obvscum you "catched"?

So now a question for you...is the only reason you think I am scum is because we disagree on afatchic?

Listen, Juls, I think you are scum for a simple reason.

We are trying to lynch scum here. If we dont lynch scum we are closer to losing the game. The possibility of someone being townie playing poorly should primate in your reasoning more than the probability of he being scum.

I know that the game wouldnt end if we never lynched someone but I am giving reasons to reconsider your position about her and you are just ignoring them. I have no idea why.

The fact that you think Im scum because I AM considering that possibility is just confirming my theory. You know how I play as town. You know that I have done this before. I love how you ignored my question about Cybele.

[populartajo]

I'll address the rest when I have a little more time but just a quick question...why is afatchic "town playing poorly" and I am "scum". If you disagree whole heartedly with my arguments why am I not "town playing poorly"?

Do you think you are playing poorly?

[populartajo]

Clearly I think you are town playing poorly? Where did you get that?
Of course you are not playing poorly. Everybody in this game realizes that. You are telling me to compare apples with oranges.

We are trying to lynch scum here. If we dont lynch scum we are closer to losing the game. The possibility of someone being townie playing poorly should primate in your reasoning more than the probability of he being scum.

I know that the game wouldnt end if we never lynched someone but I am giving reasons to reconsider your position about her and you are just ignoring them. I have no idea why.

The fact that you think Im scum because I AM considering that possibility is just confirming my theory. You know how I play as town. You know that I have done this before. I love how you ignored my question about Cybele.

Do you disagree with this?

[populartajo]

More specifically, you think I am scum playing poorly. So, my question is...why do you think it is more likely that I am scum playing poorly than town playing poorly.

Where are you getting this ideas from? I DONT think you are playing poorly. Playing poorly would generate a lynch regardless of alignment, example: afatchic suspected by 3 people. You are not playing poorly.

Your comment suggests that we should be looking for townies and not scum-hunting.

But I AM scumhunting too. I usually play that way and you and Crazy have an idea how I play as town. If I think someone is town (even worse, if I peg him as town playing poorly) then its very probable that there is scum in the attacks. Doesnt this make sense to you?

You are defending her with all your might (which now is making me think maybe she IS the godfather and you are trying your best not to get an insta-loss).

You see? This is my problem with you. There is not the possibility of me town preventing a potential mislynch of someone I think its town?

So what is wrong with town-hunting AND scum-hunting concurrently?

Nothing. Why do you think I am not scumhunting? Just because we disagree?

And I am not ignoring your question about Cybele btw but that game lasted like 1.5 hours and for the most of it I was trying to figure it out so in order to see what you are talking about I am going to have to reread. Add that to my todo list. And just so there is no question of my sincerity in my promises (to respond to your question-filled post and go back and read the war in heaven game) I will unvote until I have finished those two things.

Waiting for that.

[populartajo]

This is giving me a funny feeling because it's coming from a guy who is unsure how to read me or Crazy because we are experienced (and therefore don't play poorly). Yet, here you are saying that Juls is not playing poorly, but you definitely feel like you've nailed scum.

Juls definitely have less experience than you both. If I am right about her he made the typical scum mistake of going against the easy target,

all-attack mode

. Ive catched scum since 1911 with this theory. This mistake is totally exclusive that the way she is playing and giving arguments. For example, looking for afatchic's games as scum is not indicative of playing poorly.

Tajo, would you mind giving a detailed description of what you think of me and Crazy? Thus far, you've only been giving two-sentence blurbs about anybody who is not Juls or afatchic.

Seriously I still think that you are hard to read. I wouldnt call you obv town neither obv scum. This is the first time I play with you, Artem, and I feel you would be terrible as scum but also helpful as town, so Im really pondering now which is the most probable. You had a townie response when you were the only one that considered afatchic playing poorly, but you are really looking to every thing I say and tunneling it into scum actions which is no town-thinking, IMO. I still cant understand why you think Juls is town with a weak indicator. I at least would put her as neutral.

About Crazy. I have played games with him and I know I should be careful with him if scum. As town he is helpful but until now I cant feel that I could call him obv town or slightly town. His attacks to afatchic didnt help and Im willing to hear more from him.

Really? You think there's scum among the other three players in the game that are suspecting afatchic? No offense but "No !@#$". (from a townie point of view)

Whats wrong with that theory?

still don't understand why you think Juls's attacks have less merit than mine or Crazy's. You'll notice that the other two players suspecting afatchic (me and Crazy) think her case is fine.

Juls exaggerated her case. You didnt. Period. You are ignoring my reasons, why?
Do you still think Juls is town? Even now when she supports afatchic-tajo theory?

[populartajo]

Just for you all know here are the current possibilities I have in mind. We are starting with the premise that I know Im town and that there are big probs that afatchic is town, too.

1. Juls is scum. Still deciding weather Crazy or Artem is the other pair. Im leaning to this prob right now.

2. Juls isnt scum, just hyper agressive townie. Crazy and Artem are using her as a way to get afatchic lynched. Afatchic vigs Juls. GG. Remote possibility but still possible.

Can you ALL show your current possibilities?

[populartajo]

There are some minor things that make me think about he being town but...

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

This.
Knowing afatchic, I

really really

cant see afatchicscum doing this.

[populartajo]

Yeah, I didn't see that as anything remarkable. What makes you think that has to come from town?

Why would scum ask us something like that?
It only makes sense from a townie point of view wanting to increase the odds for his team or from a

really

calculating scum that could predict my reaction to it. Knowing afatchic, you already know what possibility Im discarding.

[populartajo]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9335

[populartajo]

Why would scum ask us something like that?
It only makes sense from a townie point of view wanting to increase the odds for his team or from a really calculating scum that could predict my reaction to it. Knowing afatchic, you already know what possibility Im discarding.

I want to love your reasoning on your defense of afatchic, Tajo, because that's just the type of stuff I love about mafia, but I can't. Logic like that only applies if what the subject did is generally considered

scummy

. Talking about your vig target would generally be considered neutral or slightly pro-town, and looking pro-town is something

every

scum tries to do, so I don't see why you're placing afatchic as not capable of doing that.

Im really having a hard time imagining afatchic doing that to "look" pro-town.
Lets play a little game.
What do you think is more probable?
a) Afatchic is town and asks us for a vig-target so he can maximize his odds of winning by asking others' opinions.
b) Afatchic is scum and instead of trying a defense he asks us for a vig-target to try to "look" protown.
...............................
Dont get me wrong. Afatchic could have done that as scum. The odds are low, though. Do you disagree?

[populartajo]

Im really having a hard time imagining afatchic doing that to "look" pro-town.
Lets play a little game.
What do you think is more probable?
a) Afatchic is town and asks us for a vig-target so he can maximize his odds of winning by asking others' opinions.
b) Afatchic is scum and instead of trying a defense he asks us for a vig-target to try to "look" protown.
...............................
Dont get me wrong. Afatchic could have done that as scum. The odds are low, though. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do. That's not tough WIFOM there, that's not a gambit, it's a simple do-this-because-it's-what-you-would-do-if-you-were-town. People can grasp something that simple in their first newbie game. If you're scum, try to look like town. You insisting afatchic is town based on that is completely ridiculous!

So you think he is scum?

[populartajo]

We disagree, Juls. You think afatchic is scum. Why the hell are you voting for me, then?

[populartajo]

Ill give an answer to your wallotext later.

[populartajo]

So you think he is scum?

My point isn't to attack him. My point is to prove that your "townpoints" on him are
just loaded WIFOM. That doesn't count against him; that counts against

you

.

So you think he is town or scum? Please specify.
About me, why posting in thread that I think someone is town counts against me? We disagree in our points of view, anything else?

[populartajo]

Unvote

Will read the thread. Any questions, ask them.

Have you finished already?
Good job finding the perfect replacement, Plum. Sigh.

[populartajo]

I lean that way, yes, but I know you aren't quiet as sure if it's afatchic or Crazy as the other. That is why I am voting tajo. I would gladly lynch either of them today.

Wait. How does this work? Why EXACTLY are you voting me?

[populartajo]

In post 162 you say that "in the majority of my games there are town players playing poorly that become easy targets for scum, at least for one post". You are saying that but you are basing your whole case that afatchic is town on one post where he asks who he should vig. A total of one posts! You did the same thing on War in Heaven with Cybele. The only thing that I get from this is a meta from you that all someone has to do is say something very pro-town early in the game and you are done looking at them.

Its not only one post. Please read my post where I explained why I thought afatchic was prob town.
Also, Im not totally discounting the possiblity of afatchic being scum. The thing is until now, afatchic hasnt given me any reason to think that. Empking's new point of view could or could not confirm my theory.
About the War in Heaven game, Cybele was town or scum? Was I town or scum? Really, cant you see the analogies?

It was a good thought but poorly executed. I actually have more respect for afatchic based on this and I honestly think it weakens tajo's argument that afatchic is just a terrible player.

POORLY EXECUTED. How does that dont make him a terrible player?

3) Scumhunting. This gives afatchic big fat scumpoints in this game. He has yet to scum hunt. Period. My biggest reason for suspecting him. He at least scumhunted in that game. Show me where he has done it in this game?

He has but he has done it poorly. Ill let you search that. Specially the parts where you say that he is weakly accusing people in this game. Could it be poor scumhunting?

Have you ever been wrong?

Yes, you?

Of course, there IS the possibility but I see a lot of connections between you two and its hard to ignore them.

Yeah, what about connections of someone that thinks someone is town (he could be right or wrong). You are not thinking pro-town. You just want someone else than you lynched.

Read my masonry game (link in my wiki)...I went all attack mode on a townie as a townie. This is how I play when I feel strongly about someone. If you want to know how I play as townie, Artem has played with me as townie in my newbie game. I did the same thing there. I went all attack mode on not one but TWO townies. Sometimes I miss, sometimes I hit.

Hint hint: you could also be wrong this time. Specially knowing this, if I were you, Id be extremely careful since you have been wrong many times. How do you play as scum?

Regarding my views on Artem.
I have been asked a couple times why I believe Artem is town. The following posts give me a strong townie vibe from him:
Post 37 - Calls tajo on asking questions without providing analysis of his answers.
Post 61 - Townie explanation of why he voted afatchic then later unvoted him.
Post 95 - solid analysis of what afatchic and tajo is saying/doing especially regarding the vig threats.
Post 169 -

Excellent catch of a potential tajo scum-slip

.

What slip are you talking about? Why are you buddying to someone for such weak reasons? Same question to Artem.

[populartajo]

What lurking are you talking abou?
About buddy up to you, what are you talking about? I DID THIS in the other game we were together. I dont remember the name but I protected you from farside because he thought you were scum and I thought you were town playing poorly. Who was right at the end? YES, ME.
Crazy and you know how I play as town. Damn, this game shouldnt be that hard.

[populartajo]

tajo...you sure do like to use meta a lot. It would be smarter if you played

this

game instead of reliving all your past games. Meta is a useful tool but you shouldn't base your whole game on it or expect everyone else to.

When did I say that Im only using meta to play this game?
Answer my post.

[populartajo]

What lurking are you talking abou?
About buddy up to you, what are you talking about? I DID THIS in the other game we were together. I dont remember the name but I protected you from farside because he thought you were scum and I thought you were town playing poorly. Who was right at the end? YES, ME.
Crazy and you know how I play as town. Damn, this game shouldnt be that hard.

The early day 1 lurking.

I WASNT LURKING.
Did you read the game?

[populartajo]

Prodded. More tonight.

What were you doing?

Too much work.

[populartajo]

Prodded. More tonight.

What were you doing?

Too much work.

Looked like lurking to me.

Im telling you it wasnt.

[populartajo]

I think we should make a move for a lynch. Can everybody post their updated suspicions and who they would viggie if they got lynched?

I still suspect Tajo with afatchic/Crazy. I will viggie Tajo if lynched.

Isnt this obvious for me, Artem?

[populartajo]

I'm thinking about lynching Pop. I'll decide tomorrow.

You are going to do this why?

[populartajo]

Artem and Juls, give your

exact

reasons to have your votes on me.
Artem, do you agree with Juls reasons for voting me?

[populartajo]

I think you or Crazy are most likely to be scum and I think I might be overestimating the scum tell on Crazy.

Im not scum. Dont you read what Im posting? Ive done this with you before. Geez.

[populartajo]

Tajo, who will you viggie?

The person that is voting for me FOR NO REASON at all.

[populartajo]

Alright. I wanted to reference a game that is finally over:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?
How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

Normally, I'd say that you don't want to keep a scummy townie for the end-game. In a normal game, I always go after the scummiest player on D1 regardless of whether I'm town or mafia. However, vengeful is a lot like the end game except for a few important distinctions.

1. Mafia doesn't kill. That means that it's not dangerous to town-hunt. Stating what you think about every single player will not help mafia make a night kill.
2. A mislynch is not as bad as usual, because of the vigilante kill. It's also another important reason why you should scum-hunt AND town-hunt. You want to have the best possible read on every player if you are town, because if you're lynched it's up to you whether town wins or loses.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

Was it hard to write a post like this 4-5 pages ago?
This is like one of the most pro-town posts Ive seen in a while. (Good job if you are scum, though).
Let me reread that game before.
Also, FYI, Im not tunneled against Juls. I just think that she has the more probs of coming scum than everybody here. Its easy to "be tunneled" when there is one player that I think is town and I cant decide between the rest of then only 2 other players.

[populartajo]

Also I would like an answer here.

Artem and Juls, give your

exact

reasons to have your votes on me.
Artem, do you agree with Juls reasons for voting me?

[populartajo]

Artem, before I give you an answer...
Why do you think Im scum when you have done this very same thing as town before?
Juls should get some rest and start answering my questions.
Artem, you dont have any problems with Juls following in every thing you do?
Crazy, so you think my defense of afatchic is illogical. As illogical as my EMpking's defense in the other game we played together with farside?
Empking, what do you think of Juls vote?

[populartajo]

How much obvious does Juls have to be?

[populartajo]

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

If he is town then he becomes an easy target. Scum know he is town and scum know that town would look him bad. Its easy to jump against him since there is no downside if the player that claimed scum flips town.
Basically "easy target" is a town player that looks like scum. Scum wont get flak for the average scumhunter because that player was scummy.

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?

Good question. You just feel it after reading some posts. Ive tried to explain why afatchic was more prob "easy target-poor play" town than obvious scum (check my posts) but you all just dont get it. Maybe Im wrong but I feel this way and I cant go against how I feel about someone.

How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

Good question again. This is a tougher decision since the line is shadier. But based on what I said the last paragraph, basically Juls had to be scum since I think that afatchic is IMO, the obv easy target. I was not 100% sure but the prob of she being scum other than the rest was enough for a vote, based on my theory.
Scunhunting townie always has the probability of the player he is hunting being town in his mind. For obvious reasons, scum doesn't have it. I called you prob town for thinking in the prob of afatchic being townie playing poorly. Juls never thought of that possibility, not even with me, and just voted because afacthic was scummy and becaue I..., well, I still dont get why she voted for me.
Voting for me, with no basis at all, other than following Artem (¿?)pretty much sealed it.

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

I can afford this in larger games but not in this game where only a wrong decision can lead us to lose the game.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

A) Leaning on Crazy, right now.
B) Im not tunneled. Im giving you reasons. Wouldnt you call Juls tunelled on afatchic and in me then?

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now

Why cant scum pretend they are scumhunting, specially when the player has big probs of being town playing poorly?
You are accusing me of being tunneled against Juls but you dont say a word about her. Even worse, he is calling you town and following you for NO REASON at all, when she could be very scum buddying up to you. We all love being called obv town but why hasnt that possibility crossed your mind, Artem?

[populartajo]

No, no Crazy.
I have done this before. I dont remember the number of the game but we were playing with farside, Megatheory, RR and Orangepenguin.
Empking was playing poorly and I defended him, pretty much like here, with no outstanding evidence but with some posts that feel very improbable coming up from scum.

[populartajo]

@Plum: Yes...consider me V/LA for this game until the Weekend. I am frustrated.

Frustrated of what?

[populartajo]

But Empking also strikes me as town. He wouldnt have revived this thread asking for his innocence if he were scum.

Looking at that thread again (best game ever, btw), indeed you did.

Empking in the other hand is scummy as hell but as I thought, hes just one of those weird townies that cant lose a fight.
Just trust me in this one.

[quote="Tajo", Open 94"]
I still dont know if Empking is scum or just one of those dumb townies who cant lose a fight.

This still seems different to me, though. I can definitely see how being stubborn is a town-tell, but asking for a vig target? Meh.[/quote]
Actually the first reason: "reviving the thread asking for innocence" is just as "gutty" as asking for a vig target. And this wasnt the only reason why I think afatchic is prob town. At the end, in that game, I was right. I think I am again.
So I am still reaching?

[populartajo]

Crazy, you say you aren't ready for a lynch yet. What do you still need to make up your mind?

Artem, I assume you are working on an answer to my post?

[populartajo]

*sigh* Maybe not. But the thing is, afatchic usually does play better than he did here. Empking does not. And I still don't see for the life of me how asking for a vig target is anything but a null-tell. It's really not that hard of a thing to pull off.

Ive seen afatchic play poorly in the game we were together.
The vig thing is just gutty. I agree that scum can have pulled it off too but its less probable. What was the objective of that, assuming she faked it? Trying to appear town if scum or trying to find a better target facing a lynch?
This isnt hard, Crazy.

[populartajo]

Yeah, if Artem is scum he deserves to win.
Just decided something.
Juls, if scum, isnt prob the GF. The same for afatchic.
Since I think both Artem and afatchic are town then Crazy has to be scum in that possible scenario. And he has more probs of being GF than Juls.
Just you all know, my pair is Crazy-Juls, Crazy GF.

Unvote Vote : Crazy.

[populartajo]

Unvote.

I need to think is something.

[populartajo]

This game is losing me. Not much has changed about my opinion of the players and I doubt there will be anything drastic enough happening in the remainder of Day 1. I'm fine with a lynch of Empking, Crazy and, to a lesser extent, Tajo. So, as soon as Crazy decides he's ready for a lynch, I say we go ahead and move on.

*sigh* I guess. Really, the chance of a scum win Day 1 isn't that high. We do have information; I just really can't tell who's scum.

About your logic on afatchic/Empking, Tajo; it sucks... and you can't really convince me otherwise. I just don't know if you actually believe it, because I know I've seen better from you in the past.

What's with the unvote, Tajo?

(Btw, Artem/Juls isn't my top thing anymore. It's rare that I see people that buddy so hard up to each other to be scum. One of them is simply buddying up to a townie, and whichever one is the townie is just buying into it.) For the same reason, I'm doubting Tajo/Empking. That leaves Artem/Tajo and Empking/Artem. Juls is prob town.

What's the case on me, anyway, especially as for being a GF?

Everyone

here is suspicious of me and the first thing you think of is GF?!!! Why doesn't "goon" come to your mind first, if I'm scum at all?

Juls is not being subtle about being scum. That indicates she is the goon.
Really? So of Juls/Artem do you think Artem is the more likely scum?

[populartajo]

And the unvote was because I thought I was the only one voting for Crazy. We need to evaluate who is he going to vig in case he is lynched and comes up town.

[populartajo]

Juls is not being subtle about being scum. That indicates she is the goon.
Really? So of Juls/Artem do you think Artem is the more likely scum?

Juls made a

very

OMGUS-y vote on you at one point, and you've been bussing her extremely hard. I'd be shocked if you two were scum together.

Juls and afatchic is similar; it would require a great deal of distancing for them to be scum together.

Artem was the only other person I could see Juls scum with. I haven't ruled her out, but the links between them weren't necessarily

scummy

in the first place, and the buddying between them just seems to dang strong to be between two scum. (Yes, that's WIFOM, but I use it anyway.)

If you're judging people individually, then yes, Juls is scummier than Artem.

So if you get lynched and you come up town, who would you vig?

[populartajo]

Just posting this in all my games...if I have promised content it may have to wait. I want to play in some marathon games this weekend. I will probably catch up on all my normal length games on Sunday night..

We need a small opinion from you for all that has been going after you left us.
Then you can go Marathon.

[populartajo]

My opinion: my vote stands. I am ready to lynch Empking. I feel very good about the tajo/Empking scum team. The only other person I am willing to lynch at this point is tajo but I think it will tell me what I need to know about tajo if Empking happens to be town. Even if Empking is town (which I don't believe) his lynch will provide us with some valuable information, afording he doesn't lynch one of the other townies.

And to crazy...those % wasn't meant to add up to 100% it was out of 100% for each person. This game isn't a "whole", each person is a "whole"...some people are just "holes" like tajo....just kidding tajo *kiss* (sorry for blowing up in the other game at you)

Sorry for being kinda assy too.
<3
You are still scum, though.

[populartajo]

Artem, you said you'd be fine with a lynch of either me or Empking. Well, he was pushing hard against me anyway, so even if he's town, I'm dead. Either way, you get your wish. Smile (Kidding though, I really wish he wouldn't vig me if he turned up town, since I do know that would be a loss.)

Or you could be trying to save your hind, because Tajo put you at L-1 yesterday.

Yeah, its Crazy-Juls.

Vote: Crazy.

[populartajo]

You know, I could go for an Empking/afatchic lynch. Individually, there's nobody that's even close to him. Afatchic's buddying to Tajo is even worse than vice versa, since at least Tajo backed his up with "evidence." And I hate to make this sound OMGUS-y, but his case on me for "flying under the radar" is just horrible. Yes, I know Empking is hardly renowned for his great scum-hunting, but usually his cases are based off of something that's actually

true

, no matter how pointless it is. (His big case on farside in Open 94 was stupid, but was based on stuff that was actually said, at least.)

Juls, I know you think he's scum.
Tajo, I know you think he's town.

Artem, you said you'd be fine with a lynch of either me or Empking. Well, he was pushing hard against me anyway, so even if he's town, I'm dead. Either way, you get your wish. (Kidding though, I really wish he wouldn't vig me if he turned up town, since I do know that would be a loss.)

Vote: Empking

Enough stuff has been said today. And yes, he could be what you call an "easy target," but that doesn't mean anything regarding his alignment, right?

After all that I have posted, you decided to vote Empking and avoid Juls. GG, Crazy.

[populartajo]

I LOVE ICE CREAM.

GG, all.
Once again, "easy target" theory proven with a flawless victory.

[populartajo]

Also, awesome modding Plum. I really enjoyed it!

[populartajo]

Come on tajo don't gloat. I think we put forth a pretty solid effort.

Modesty apart, I think that if I hadnt been in this game, scum would have won easily. You had Artem, an ext good player, convinced since the beginning. And afatchic was so obv scummy that in 90% of the games (if we run samples) he would have been lynched.
Crazy was good too. So difficult to read. The break point was Artem becoming obv town and you becoming obv not GF scum.

[populartajo]

Meh, I still don't agree with your logic on afatchic, Tajo.

That was fun, though... I always find these micro-games enjoyable... and I think Juls and I put forth a good effort. But good job Tajo/Artem for catching us.

This is what I like about mafia. Its so magical. You cant explain some logic.

[populartajo]

Juls, do I have your permission to post your quicktopic? I assume you don't mind because you made a comment to Artem for 'after the game' in there, but it would be nice to get explicit permission from both yourself and Crazy. Was planning to ask y'all previously, but procrastination can do ugly things.

Also, yay, I can change my avatar without worry of disturbing a game I'm modding. I'm glad you two found the modding good. This was my first modding endeavor, and everything seemed to go off fairly smoothly; I'm glad about that. Suggestions for improvement?

Real mod notes/vague, disorganized thoughts on the game coming soon to a theater near you.

waiting for this.

[populartajo]

P.S. I think I'm better at appearing townie than I am at scum-hunting.

Well, you're the oner who said it

GG town, Good Modding Plum.

Once again, I save your scummy ass. When are you going to improve?

[populartajo]

P.S. I think I'm better at appearing townie than I am at scum-hunting.

You would be a scary scum.

[populartajo]

Lack of strong stance here might have been a factor in the loss. As might this:

If I had to assign percentages to who I think is most to least scummy it would be like this:

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

A meatworld friend and former scummer looked at that and gaped . That buddying might have been just a little too blatant. Crazy seemed to be a little shocked/not too pleased himself. Perhaps you could have made more advantageous use of the quicktopic thread?

That was just a lazy post. A post for the sake of posting. Spoiler alert:

I get lazy as scum.

I couldnt blame you. I was a pain in the ass.

[populartajo]

You both found them and managed to convince Artem and pin down Artem as town nicely. Good play all around, but in my mind you're the MVP.

Thx, Plum. <3

[populartajo]

If only one town player thought I was scummy then I don't think there was much to save me from.

You on the other hand had both me and Artem thinking you were scummy, so the better question is: When are you going to improve?

Hahahaha. But you thought I was scummy for the wrong reasons.
You want to make a poll about who needs to improve more?

[populartajo]

If only one town player thought I was scummy then I don't think there was much to save me from.

You on the other hand had both me and Artem thinking you were scummy, so the better question is: When are you going to improve?

Hahahaha. But you thought I was scummy for the wrong reasons.

Doesn't matter, the entire town thought you were scummy. That seems to suggest that the problem was with you.

You want to make a poll about who needs to improve more?

No because the facts are better than opinions.

1<2.

The entire town thought I was scummy? Why did you think I was scummy? Because I lurked? WTF?
Im really tempted to make a pool to prove you who needs to improve more, based on opinions based on fact analysed by players that have played games with us, but that would be really mean and I really like you, Empking.
Just take my advice and try a different approach. Players like you are the reason why town loses so many games scum shouldnt win.

[populartajo]

You don't think Artem thought you were scummy?

Yes but he has admitted that sometimes he is not good at scumhunting. He is a strong town player but he suspected me for the wrong reasons.

[populartajo]

You don't think Artem thought you were scummy?

Yes but he has admitted that sometimes he is not good at scumhunting. He is a strong town player but he suspected me for the wrong reasons.

Code: Select all

Its not my fault everyone thought I was scummy. Its because everyone is terrible at scum hunting

Lol, pretty much.

[populartajo]

Look, Empking, if you give me a valid reason why you think I was scummy then we can discuss this with a more reasonable approach.

[populartajo]

Look, Empking, if you give me a valid reason why you think I was scummy then we can discuss this with a more reasonable approach.

You were lurking early day 1.

[populartajo]

Sure.

Convinced people he was pro-town - Artem
Almost lynched - Empking
Worked out Crazy was the best lynch - Tajo

What is your point?

[populartajo]

Also, I dont know if Im reading it wrong but you think this game was won by your performance?

[populartajo]

No, I think Artem won it for us.

When was I almost lynched? How long did it take you to stop distracting the town by talking about Juls?

Who was scum, maybe?
Did you at least think Crazy was the godfather?

[populartajo]

What does the first question mean?
Yes.

Empking whats the point of this discussion?
I know I started it but it was only to give you an advice. You can take it or leave it.
You may debate about your perfomance and my performance in this game with anyone else and Im sure they will give you an interesting answer.
Bye.

[populartajo]

What does the first question mean?
Yes.

Empking whats the point of this discussion?
I know I started it but it was only to give you an advice. You can take it or leave it.
You may debate about your perfomance and my performance in this game with anyone else and Im sure they will give you an interesting answer.
Bye.

I didn't want to act like I accepted your mind-numbingly terrible play for most of the game was miles away better than everyone else's.

When did I say everyone else?
Dont twist my words.

Vote : Empking.

[populartajo]

What does the first question mean?
Yes.

Empking whats the point of this discussion?
I know I started it but it was only to give you an advice. You can take it or leave it.
You may debate about your perfomance and my performance in this game with anyone else and Im sure they will give you an interesting answer.
Bye.

I didn't want to act like I accepted your mind-numbingly terrible play for most of the game was miles away better than everyone else's.

When did I say everyone else?
Dont twist my words.

Vote : Empking.

I read between the lines when I made my post and after that you admitted thinking that Artem was a terrible scum hunter and Juls thought you were acting like she and Crazy played horribly.

WTF? When did I say that Artem was a terrible scumhunter? When did I say that Juls and Crazy play poorly?

Confirm vote : Empking

Just found the most obvscum. Am I not that awesome?

[populartajo]

That is taken out of context. And the first quote was a joke, notice the lol.

Daykill : Empking.

Plum, amiright, amiright?

[populartajo]

Think what you want. I was only trying to be helpful with your playstyle.

Hit with a stick : Empking.

[populartajo]

If only one town player thought I was scummy then I don't think there was much to save me from.

You on the other hand had both me and Artem thinking you were scummy, so the better question is: When are you going to improve?

Hahahaha. But you thought I was scummy for the wrong reasons.

Doesn't matter, the entire town thought you were scummy. That seems to suggest that the problem was with you.

You want to make a poll about who needs to improve more?

No because the facts are better than opinions.

1<2.

The entire town thought I was scummy? Why did you think I was scummy? Because I lurked? WTF?
Im really tempted to make a pool to prove you who needs to improve more, based on opinions based on fact analysed by players that have played games with us, but that would be really mean and I really like you, Empking.
Just take my advice and try a different approach. Players like you are the reason why town loses so many games scum shouldnt win.

Kame kame ha : Empking.