Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Artem]

Alright. I wanted to reference a game that is finally over:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?
How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

Normally, I'd say that you don't want to keep a scummy townie for the end-game. In a normal game, I always go after the scummiest player on D1 regardless of whether I'm town or mafia. However, vengeful is a lot like the end game except for a few important distinctions.

1. Mafia doesn't kill. That means that it's not dangerous to town-hunt. Stating what you think about every single player will not help mafia make a night kill.
2. A mislynch is not as bad as usual, because of the vigilante kill. It's also another important reason why you should scum-hunt AND town-hunt. You want to have the best possible read on every player if you are town, because if you're lynched it's up to you whether town wins or loses.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

[Artem]

Unvote

until Tajo responds.

[populartajo]

Alright. I wanted to reference a game that is finally over:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?
How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

Normally, I'd say that you don't want to keep a scummy townie for the end-game. In a normal game, I always go after the scummiest player on D1 regardless of whether I'm town or mafia. However, vengeful is a lot like the end game except for a few important distinctions.

1. Mafia doesn't kill. That means that it's not dangerous to town-hunt. Stating what you think about every single player will not help mafia make a night kill.
2. A mislynch is not as bad as usual, because of the vigilante kill. It's also another important reason why you should scum-hunt AND town-hunt. You want to have the best possible read on every player if you are town, because if you're lynched it's up to you whether town wins or loses.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

Was it hard to write a post like this 4-5 pages ago?
This is like one of the most pro-town posts Ive seen in a while. (Good job if you are scum, though).
Let me reread that game before.
Also, FYI, Im not tunneled against Juls. I just think that she has the more probs of coming scum than everybody here. Its easy to "be tunneled" when there is one player that I think is town and I cant decide between the rest of then only 2 other players.

[populartajo]

Also I would like an answer here.

Artem and Juls, give your

exact

reasons to have your votes on me.
Artem, do you agree with Juls reasons for voting me?

[Crazy]

Replying to stuff as I'm reading along... my opinion could certainly change by the time I'm finished with this post:

So you think he is town or scum? Please specify.
About me, why posting in thread that I think someone is town counts against me? We disagree in our points of view, anything else?

Afatchic is probably about 65-70% likely to be scum in my eyes. You're in that range too; Artem's a little higher; Juls is a little lower. Keep in mind that in just brute scumminess, afatchic places 1st, but Artem is the only one that could really be scum with

anybody

here.

Posting that you think he's town doesn't make you scummier, but posting it with incorrect logic does.

If you want to see what I don't like about how you defend afatchic, I'm sure it's in my previous posts.


Oh, wow, Empking's analysis. I'll take it one by one:

Artem: Artem appears to be solidly contributing in a pro-town manner and I don't think he's lurked yet. I don't fremember him comitting a scum tell.

This part is pure gut but then I suppose it's okay.

Juls: She's seems to be contributing well but her OMGUS-like behaviour and distracting the town by talking about another unrelated game is scummy.

You know

afatchic

brought that up, right? Although I see the OMGUS part, but only if you're talking about Tajo, not about afatchic.

Pop: Pop seems to be going a way that at first glance only makes sense if he's town (from my point of view), that bit of WIFOM doesn't take away the scummy thing he's done.

Buddying is fairly common, you know.

Crazy: I have read the whole game just a couple of minutes ago and I don't remember a single thing he's done save say hello to me. It looks like he's flying under the radar in a scum-like manner.

Lolwut? Out of all the things that I've done that you could accuse me of, you pick

THAT?!

Seriously, I've been in at least two games with you as town in which I lurked more than I have here! (Open 94, Open 107)

Because in Vengeful, it's just as important to be town-hunting as it is scum-hunting and I feel that I found one of the other townies.

By the way, a question for Tajo, Empking and Crazy: what do you think of me and Juls as a pair? Are we scum together, townies together, or of the opposite alignment?

(I think Crazy views us as a scum pair, not sure about the other two.)

I'm not dead set on a scum-pair... but the interactions between you two just seem very fishy.

Crazy and you know how I play as town. Damn, this game shouldnt be that hard.

Stop it. Defending people is fine; I often do it. It's

how

you're doing it!

I think you or Crazy are most likely to be scum and I think I might be overestimating the scum tell on Crazy.

Umm, yeah, I think you are. Seriously, nobody here is "under-the-radar." It's really hard to be in a 5-player game.

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now.

Although the rest of this post is awesome... bits of exaggerated buddying like this really make me wary of you, Artem.

Btw, I'm not ready for a lynch yet. I'm having an incredibly difficult time with all this intense buddying coming from, well, all of you (not Empking, but his predecessor afatchic). This doesn't mean I'm completely neutral... but this is a tough decision that needs to be elaborated more.

[Juls]

I'm so exhausted right now...I have skimmed the past day or so's activity. So this will be short and sweet.

If I had to assign percentages to who I think is most to least scummy it would be like this:

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

I have always thought afatchic was most scummy and my case on tajo is mostly due to the connections I listed in my book post. So that is why my vote is on you tajo. Also, as I said before, I think Artem is most protown and he felt more sure in you than afatchic. I thought it was best for us to be on the same page. With Artem removing his vote, it is best to put it back on Empking since he is my most scummy.

Unvote. Vote Empking

[Empking]

Crazy: What else could I have accused you of?

[populartajo]

Artem, before I give you an answer...
Why do you think Im scum when you have done this very same thing as town before?
Juls should get some rest and start answering my questions.
Artem, you dont have any problems with Juls following in every thing you do?
Crazy, so you think my defense of afatchic is illogical. As illogical as my EMpking's defense in the other game we played together with farside?
Empking, what do you think of Juls vote?

[Empking]

I can't really do anything about it as she didn't give any reason other than she thought Af was scummy. The vote on Pop and then unvote seems like she wanted a wagon.

[populartajo]

How much obvious does Juls have to be?

[Artem]

@Tajo: I didn't make the "easy target" argument because I was town. I could have easily done it as scum. So it certainly doesn't make you town. It's not, however, a reason to suspect you either. It's just that your entire case against Juls is based on her going after the easy target and I'm pointing out the flaws in the logic.

Also, I don't have a problem with Juls mimicking my vote, because as she explained, you (arbitrary you) and the person you suspect is town want to be on the same page. Besides, she's voting Empking on her own.

@Empking:

Crazy: What else could I have accused you of?

Why do you feel the need to accuse him of anything at all?

@Crazy:
You said that my vote/unvote on Slicey could be seen as distancing. I think the same argument can be made for afatchic's vote on you. As far as I can tell, he never really explained his vote on you other than:

Well, first process of elimination. I know i'm town, and populartajo seems pro-town. Not sure about the rest. out of them Crazy seems the scummiest IMO. He hasn't contributed much in any type of scum hunting, and has just laid out baseless opinions in all of his posts until his most recent ones questioning Artem about the unvote on me. He seems to be hesitant with his vote, which i never view as pro-town. I think votes should be put out there, to either pressure or push for a lynch. Having it on anyone is better then not voting, IMO, as it at least places some pressure on someone.

[Empking]

Because I think he's scum.

[Artem]

So you decided that he's scum and now trying to come up with things to accuse him of? Seems a little backwards to me.

[Plum]

You've made it to double-digits in the number of votecounts, guys!

Vote Count 10

Empking - 1 - (Juls)
Artem - 0 - (none)
Crazy - 1 - (Empking)
populartajo - 0 - (none)
Juls - 1 - (populartajo)

Not Voting - 2 - Crazy, Artem

With five players alive, it'll take three players to clobber someone with lacrosse sticks.

[Juls]

@Tajo: How long are we going to do this back and forth about the same thing? Like I said in post 231...trying to explain why I think Empking (afatchic) is scummy to you is not getting anywhere. I don't have the mentality to go through another round of questions with you...so I am taking a break from this game until the weekend. I REALLY hope we move toward a lynch by then because to be very honest, the game is getting boring to me now.

Would you like me to take that as an officially announced V/LA period, Juls?

[Empking]

So you decided that he's scum and now trying to come up with things to accuse him of? Seems a little backwards to me.

No. I've accused him of something because Crazy thinks he committed some scum tells I haven't noticed.

[populartajo]

Read the first few pages. I, too, made an argument about somebody going after an "easy target". As a result, I drew a lot of flak, because there's no such thing as an easy target. Panzer (although scum) made a good point: what if somebody claims scum? Does that make them an easy target?

If he is town then he becomes an easy target. Scum know he is town and scum know that town would look him bad. Its easy to jump against him since there is no downside if the player that claimed scum flips town.
Basically "easy target" is a town player that looks like scum. Scum wont get flak for the average scumhunter because that player was scummy.

How do you distinguish an easy townie target and a scumbag?

Good question. You just feel it after reading some posts. Ive tried to explain why afatchic was more prob "easy target-poor play" town than obvious scum (check my posts) but you all just dont get it. Maybe Im wrong but I feel this way and I cant go against how I feel about someone.

How do you distinguish a scum-hunting townie and a mafia taking advantage of a scummy townie?

Good question again. This is a tougher decision since the line is shadier. But based on what I said the last paragraph, basically Juls had to be scum since I think that afatchic is IMO, the obv easy target. I was not 100% sure but the prob of she being scum other than the rest was enough for a vote, based on my theory.
Scunhunting townie always has the probability of the player he is hunting being town in his mind. For obvious reasons, scum doesn't have it. I called you prob town for thinking in the prob of afatchic being townie playing poorly. Juls never thought of that possibility, not even with me, and just voted because afacthic was scummy and becaue I..., well, I still dont get why she voted for me.
Voting for me, with no basis at all, other than following Artem (¿?)pretty much sealed it.

I think the answer is that you can't. Our job is to scum-hunt. That means that if somebody's being scummy, we call them out on it, vote them, etc. If it's a townie playing poorly, tough luck, they need to play better so that scum couldn't take advantage of them.

I can afford this in larger games but not in this game where only a wrong decision can lead us to lose the game.

That said, if you (Tajo) really are town, you need to A) make up your mind about me and Crazy. Saying we're too experienced and hard to read is not cutting it. And B) Try to come out of your tunnel vision on Juls. As I said before, you can't really distinguish a mafia taking advantage of a poor townie and a townie scum-hunting.

A) Leaning on Crazy, right now.
B) Im not tunneled. Im giving you reasons. Wouldnt you call Juls tunelled on afatchic and in me then?

Here's one very simple reason why I think Juls is town: she's done more scumhunting than the three of you (tajo, afatchic and Crazy) combined. I like her posts 198 and 230. I too originally thought that afatchic was a townie player playing poorly, but those posts really make me wonder and lean to afatchic/Crazy pairing. Which would make you (Tajo) town and which is why I'm making this post now

Why cant scum pretend they are scumhunting, specially when the player has big probs of being town playing poorly?
You are accusing me of being tunneled against Juls but you dont say a word about her. Even worse, he is calling you town and following you for NO REASON at all, when she could be very scum buddying up to you. We all love being called obv town but why hasnt that possibility crossed your mind, Artem?

[Crazy]

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

Lol, that adds up to 177%. It needs to add up to 200%.

But seriously,

1% on Artem?

You don't think an Artem/Empking pair has any merit? What about an Artem/Tajo?

Crazy: What else could I have accused you of?

Nothing, preferably. But people seem to be accusing me of "reaching." I think that's bogus, but definitely not as bogus as you accusing me of flying UTR.

Crazy, so you think my defense of afatchic is illogical. As illogical as my EMpking's defense in the other game we played together with farside?

Open 94? I don't recall Empking defending anyone... but even if he did, I hold you to a higher standard of logic than Empking.

@Crazy:
You said that my vote/unvote on Slicey could be seen as distancing. I think the same argument can be made for afatchic's vote on you. As far as I can tell, he never really explained his vote on you other than:

Well, afatchic at least put out

something

. Why didn't you just ask for a prod for Slicey?

So you decided that he's scum and now trying to come up with things to accuse him of? Seems a little backwards to me.

XD

No. I've accused him of something because Crazy thinks he committed some scum tells I haven't noticed.

You accused me of "flying under the radar," which is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. My comment meant that basically any other thing you could accuse me of would have more merit than

that!

I do not like the case that Artem/Juls/Tajo has on me based on reaching/whatever, but at least that makes a whole lot more sense than the crap you're putting out.

[Crazy]

I'm starting to wonder if all of you are scum... XD

Juls is probably the most pro-town overall of all of you, but her vote on Tajo in her post #20 is what's sticking out as a sore scum-thumb. (And of course, buddying up to Artem)

afatchic/Empking both clearly have no idea what they're doing. Their actions are so ridiculously scummy that they almost appear pro-town. (note: almost) Afatchic's insisting that Tajo was town under absolutely no evidence, for example, as well as Empking's case on me for "flying under the radar."

Tajo is all too tunnel-visioned for me. He apparently thinks Juls is obvscum, and that afatchic is obvtown. I've said why I don't like his argument about afatchic, and the argument that Juls is scum isn't much better. If anybody here is

reaching

, it's Tajo.

Artem is all fine on first glance, but is the only one that could possibly be scum with all three of the others. If Artem is scum, the person that's most likely

not

his partner would probably be me! I believe I've explained all these links... I'll admit that none of them are particularly strong, which is why I don't have him pegged as obvscum.

[Empking]

When did I say "flying under the radar". Those words.

[Crazy]

Crazy: I have read the whole game just a couple of minutes ago and I don't remember a single thing he's done save say hello to me. It looks like he's flying under the radar in a scum-like manner.

[populartajo]

No, no Crazy.
I have done this before. I dont remember the number of the game but we were playing with farside, Megatheory, RR and Orangepenguin.
Empking was playing poorly and I defended him, pretty much like here, with no outstanding evidence but with some posts that feel very improbable coming up from scum.

[Empking]

Crazy: I have read the whole game just a couple of minutes ago and I don't remember a single thing he's done save say hello to me. It looks like he's flying under the radar in a scum-like manner.

Ha, I did. I still think you were but I wouldn't use those words again.

[Crazy]

But Empking also strikes me as town. He wouldnt have revived this thread asking for his innocence if he were scum.

Looking at that thread again (best game ever, btw), indeed you did.

Empking in the other hand is scummy as hell but as I thought, hes just one of those weird townies that cant lose a fight.
Just trust me in this one.

[quote="Tajo", Open 94"]
I still dont know if Empking is scum or just one of those dumb townies who cant lose a fight. [/quote]
This still seems different to me, though. I can definitely see how being stubborn is a town-tell, but asking for a vig target? Meh.

[Juls]

@Plum: Yes...consider me V/LA for this game until the Weekend. I am frustrated.