Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Crazy]

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

I don't think that's a really good question to ask... since if you're town, half the other people are scum, so really you should go off your own opinion. As long as you don't do something stupid like vig Juls because you don't like her (you need a real reason), your guess is as good as mine.

[Plum]

Vote Count 05

afatchic - 2 - (Juls, Crazy)
Artem - 0 - (none)
Crazy - 1 - (afatchic)
populartajo - 1 - (Artem)
Juls - 0 - (none)

Not Voting - 1 - populartajo

With five players alive, it'll take three players to feed someone to the ducks.

[Artem]

If Tajo or Artem hammers, then they're obvscum, so I don't have a problem with that.

You're leaving one important detail out of the equation. afatchic could be scum.

Okay so lets all pretend i get hammered, and i'm a vig. who would you want me to vig?

That's actually not a bad question to ask as everybody makes it out to be, because it lets you test the waters of who suspects who. However, you should take all the answers, analyze them and the game, and make your own decision.

Like Juls, I suspect you, Tajo and Crazy. So, if you flip town, my vote is to vig Tajo or Crazy.

A few more things:

-------------------------

Also, I really doubt anybody is going to hammer Tajo right now:

-Juls has just stated that she wants to wait until Tajo checks in before a hammer.

-Afatchic thinks that Tajo is the most pro-town person around.

The bolded part could not have been part of the original reasons behind leaving the vote, because Juls hasn't stated her desire to give ample warning until

after

you OKd your vote on Tajo.

In fact, this is your original statement:

But now... I bet it would help us more than them if they quicklynched (assuming Tajo is town, of course).

Why do you need to assume that Tajo is town for this statement? If somebody hammered and Tajo flipped scum, that too would help "us" more than "them". (Assuming "us" is town and "them" is scum.)

---------------

4)I said i would kill the person who hammered without a reason, if i'm genuinely scummy and someone hammers, that's fine. There would be nothing anti-town about that. However right now your twisting of my words and crap like that seems more anti town then anything. And i don't consider that a threat, but more like a promise, or early warning. Right now if i die, Juls dies with me.

This kind of an obsession with the vigilante power reads sincere to me. (however, still anti-town) Which is why I'm inclined to think afatchic is just a poor town player, rather than scum.

---------------------------

My post 95 (linked to, instead of quoted, because it's big):

The first three paragraph are questions/points of disagreement with afatchic. Crazy classified it as a "case against afatchic". But it wasn't as much of a case as pressure statements. The vote, the actual vote, was based off this reason:

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

...and was placed on who I suspected to be the GF.

----

Welcome back, Tajo. Really need to hear from you.

[Crazy]

You're leaving one important detail out of the equation. afatchic could be scum.

If he's scum, he won't be quickhammered. Hence, the quickhammerer will always be scum.

Why do you need to assume that Tajo is town for this statement? If somebody hammered and Tajo flipped scum, that too would help "us" more than "them". (Assuming "us" is town and "them" is scum.)

Okay, well, since lynching scum is pretty much the #1 goal for today, I don't see how somebody quick-hammering scum could be a bad thing. Hence, I thought it would go unsaid that if Tajo flipped scum, that would be good. So the only thing I really had to state was how it would be if he flipped town (and killed obvscum quicklyncher.)

[afatchic]

Okay, about the question. I never intended to let your answers make my decision. i just thought it might help out a bit. but i asked because i am gonna be V/La monday-friday, and was gonna ask if yall thought it would be better to just go ahead and lynch me then try and get a replacement in this situation, since they would probably have a hard time defending anything i have done or said.

[Plum]

I myself am going to have slightly limited access early this week. Don't expect to see much of me from Monday evening to Tuesday evening. I'll think about afatchic's V/LA and options and hopefully come to the conclusions about what's best for the game as a whole.

Also, I feel like I want to replace populartajo due to his continued lack of posting. Will take a look at how many hours it's been, etc., and hopefully have an update on that front soon, too.

[populartajo]

No no no dont replace me. Im here rereading.

[populartajo]

Ok people. First of all, apologies for not posting a lot. Im having a lot of work here, traveling and such. You are free to check my posts in other games and compare them with my normal activity in the site and youll notice that Ive been neglecting games like crazy.
Things still are difficult for me but they will settle down soon luckily. If things go crazy enough Ill ask for a replacement but for now..

Obvious things from a reread.

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I

really

think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

2) Artem and Crazy

2a)I was having a bad feeling about Artem at the beginning of the game but I really think he is trying to help. Since when lurkiness indicated GF status? Why do you think juls is town?

2b)Crazy started good but somehow has become unreadable to me. Do you sincerelly support afatchic's case? What do you think of Juls?

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a remote possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...,, Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

I should be careful with them since I know they are both experienced. Will reread them with more time tomorrow.

3) Right now Im leaning Juls scum with Crazy/Artem as scumpair possibility.

3a) Juls first vote and unvote for Artem is weird... but then she went crazy against afatchic for things that IMO dont deserve this post.

c) I am voting for you because it is clear you understand the dynamic of this game. Yet you put someone L-1 and switched your vote within 2 minutes to start the game. In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded. I have seen scum play the innocent townie and act as if they don't understand the rules. Next, you hypocritically challenged pop and Artem for not having votes on anyone. And you just added one more...you say Crazy is not scumhunting but the closest thing to scum hunting I have seen out of you is asking why pop and Artem hasn't voted.

This really feels as scum exaggerating a case against an easy target.

And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type.

Why?

[populartajo]

EBWOP

Vote: Juls.

[afatchic]

Ok people. First of all, apologies for not posting a lot. Im having a lot of work here, traveling and such. You are free to check my posts in other games and compare them with my normal activity in the site and youll notice that Ive been neglecting games like crazy.
Things still are difficult for me but they will settle down soon luckily. If things go crazy enough Ill ask for a replacement but for now..

Obvious things from a reread.

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie.

I have played for over 8 months, and probably at least 30+ games, so calling me a newb is a long shot. i think it would be more legit to call me scum then newb.

[Juls]

@tajo: All I get from that post is afatchic is a newb and Artem/Crazy are experienced so that only leaves Juls to vote for.

To address your "points" against me...

Juls first vote and unvote for Artem is weird...

I misread Artem's first post...I read it as what he was suggesting was what should be done no matter what. I missed the following part of it and realized immediately my mistake and unvoted:

But, we're talking about a situation when a townie is sitting at L-1 for no serious reason and the scum has the choice to hammer.

.........

This really feels as scum exaggerating a case against an easy target.

Post 81 should be included in your selective quote. Post 83 is additional elements I noticed about afatchic and expands on my suspicions from post 81. Maybe it should have said "I am

also

voting you because..."

And I agree with you for the most part

on

that

tajo

could

be

ing

a lurker/GF type.

Why?

Fixed. I didn't mean it as a certainty. I meant I could see the possibility. Because a) I felt you were lurking and b) I could see where a Godfather would lurk on D1 in order not to draw suspicion because if the GF is lynched it is a town insta-win.

[Crazy]

2b)Crazy started good but somehow has become unreadable to me. Do you sincerelly support afatchic's case? What do you think of Juls?

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a remote possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...,, Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

I think afatchic is scum. The newbtown thing is ridiculous, because I

have

seen afatchic play well before... (Open 106, Open 95). Afatchic has a higher post count than I have, so I wouldn't call him a newb.

You think me and Artem are a scum-team? I thought Artem said that he thought afatchic was newbtown...

I don't see the case on Juls, really... I don't see why the vote/unvote quick like that is scummy (weird, yes... scummy, why?), and her case on afatchic seems fine to me.

[populartajo]

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?
I have played with afatchic before and, no offense intended, one player can play 300+ games and still be a newbie (playing poorly). This is the feeling I have when rereading aftachic.
Of course you can disagree but do you really think that the possibility of he being scum is more powerful than the one of he being townie playing poorly?

[Crazy]

I said my case in Post 119:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=119

I don't see how "poor play" can make someone town. How do we know he isn't scum using WIFOM by buddying up to you, trying to confirm you as town (or scum)?

[populartajo]

@tajo: All I get from that post is afatchic is a newb and Artem/Crazy are experienced so that only leaves Juls to vote for.

Please read better.
[quote"Juls"]Post 81 should be included in your selective quote. Post 83 is additional elements I noticed about afatchic and expands on my suspicions from post 81. Maybe it should have said "I am

also

voting you because..."[/quote]
So-so reasons dont make one terribly weak reason good enough for a vote, ya know? Point c) of 83 is totally an exaggeration from your part, do you agree?

I didn't mean it as a certainty. I meant I could see the possibility. Because a) I felt you were lurking and b) I could see where a Godfather would lurk on D1 in order not to draw suspicion because if the GF is lynched it is a town insta-win

Hint, I wasnt lurking. Thx for

fixing

things, though.

[populartajo]

You think me and Artem are a scum-team? I thought Artem said that he thought afatchic was newbtown...

He supported the wagon at some point. Notice the (ed) in my original post.

I don't see the case on Juls, really... I don't see why the vote/unvote quick like that is scummy (weird, yes... scummy, why?),

I said it was weird. I never said it was scummy.

and her case on afatchic seems fine to me.

Doesnt seem fine to me.

[Crazy]

Okay.

Okay.

Doesnt seem fine to me.

You said Juls was exaggerating the case against an easy target. Afatchic

is

an easy target (doesn't make him town), but could you please explain the "exaggeration" there?

[populartajo]

I don't see how "poor play" can make someone town. How do we know he isn't scum using WIFOM by buddying up to you, trying to confirm you as town (or scum)?

Precisely because we dont know.
You see, my point is that afatchic

can

be playing a master plan as scum but as I said he fits more the criteria of a townie playing poorly than the calculating scum trying to appear playing poorly. See my point?
Town should always consider all the possibilities. You and Juls going all-attack mode against him and not leaving him the oportunity or the chance to be townie playing poorly, really make me wonder about you.
You know what do I think about the easy target, dont you Crazy?

[Crazy]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

[populartajo]

Point c) of post 83 is what catched my interest but lets see al the post.

a) You are at L-2. Vote count on THIS page.

Reason for being scum? No.

b) The only TRUE pressure vote is the L-1 vote because if you want everyone to have a vote on somebody and have no one at L-1 that means that we have to do a little round robin where everyone has one vote. Wow...awesome pressure.

Reason for being scum? No.

c) I am voting for you because it is clear you understand the dynamic of this game. Yet you put someone L-1 and switched your vote within 2 minutes to start the game.

Null tell and some of you agree, IIRC.

In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded. I have seen scum play the innocent townie and act as if they don't understand the rules.

I havent checked the wiki for this game. Am I scum too?

Next, you hypocritically challenged pop and Artem for not having votes on anyone.

Yeah, afatchic is a hypocrit. Is he scum?

And you just added one more...you say Crazy is not scumhunting but the closest thing to scum hunting I have seen out of you is asking why pop and Artem hasn't voted.

Townie playing poorly or scum trying to appear playing poorly? Thats the dilemma.

[populartajo]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" could?

[Crazy]

I have a few comments about your Juls case but I'll wait 'til Juls responds first.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" could?

I don't understand this.

I'm not convinced that afatchic must either be stupid-town or crafty-scum. What is it exactly that afatchic did that would be impossible for him to do as scum unless he was really crafty. I do enjoy these WIFOMy arguments (I became confirmed town in Open 86 due to something similar, as I already mentioned), but what is it in particular?

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

[populartajo]

I'd normally agree with you; something similar happened with me in Lovers' Multiball.

However, I'd hardly say WIFOM that obvious was part of a "master plan." Saying "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched right now" could certainly be done by poor scum.

"Ill vig anyone you choose" is something poor scum would do? What about frustrated townie trying to help his team?

[Juls]

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?

In order of what I feel is most important to least:

• 1. Complete lack of scum-hunting (implied if not explicitly said in Post 85)
  2. Random vote on Crazy that he says was "to pressure" Crazy (noted in Post 78)
  3. Hypocritically (and reaching) challenging Crazy and Artem for not voting. This looks like an attempt to build a weak case on either or the two.
  4. Making irrational vig threats. I can see scum doing this as a way to intimidate a townie to remove their vote. As I said before, I think he is pushing it so hard that it doesn't seem like a natural townie reaction. Instead of doing this, I would expect a town to answer my accusations calmly and logically.
  5. OMGUSing and acting emo because he played with me in another game.
  6. Questioning the rules early in the game. I have seen too many times someone ask the question "how many scum are there in this sort of game?" when they are scum. I consider this type of question a minor scum tell especially when it is noted clearly in the rules.

Regarding your post #144: Points a) and b) from the post you quote were not reasons I thought he was scum...they were answers to his questions and elaborations on my take on pressuring.

Townie playing poorly or scum trying to appear playing poorly? Thats the dilemma.

I am surprised that you think these two are the only explanations. How about scum playing poorly? Not TRYING to play poorly...just doing it. You say you have played with afatchic before...have you ever played with him where he was scum? Does he only play poorly as townie?