Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

[Crazy]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

I'm not discounting afatchic being town... but if you think he is, I want to hear your argument.

From what I understand, you basically said that afatchic was either poor-town or crafty-scum, yes? Well, what in particular did he do that would only be possible as scum if it was part of a brilliant scheme?

[populartajo]

My entire point is that afatchic could be town playing poorly. I read him as town and you are free to disagree. But you and Juls seem to discount that possibility for reasons I cant understand. See the difference with Artem?

I'm not discounting afatchic being town... but if you think he is, I want to hear your argument.

From what I understand, you basically said that afatchic was either poor-town or crafty-scum, yes? Well, what in particular did he do that would only be possible as scum if it was part of a brilliant scheme?

Playing poorly.

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I really think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

[Crazy]

1) Afatchic is prob obv noob townie. From his posts, we know this guy isnt very experienced. Calling someone protown (me) with such conviction, in my experience, is way more probable in newbie townie than in newbie scum.

That could be basic WIFOMing. You don't need to be a master mafia player to buddy up.

Also, she is asking us for deciding his target if he is lynched, more probable again in panicking townie about to be lynched rather than experienced scum trying to appear townie.

I don't find that completely unreasonable at all... considering he might have just been trying to ask our opinions.

Finally, threatening Juls with her death is something very interesting. Normally I would have expected afatchicscum to defend himself knowing that half of the town wants him dead, not threatening someone else with her death.

Most townies would defend themself rather than a death threat as well, yes?

Of course I could be wrong, and afatchic could be tricking me well, but I really think afatchic fits more the newbie town player than the calculating scum role.

So, I just don't see why those are the only two options. Someone of afatchic's caliber could easily have done what he did as scum.

[Artem]

2a)I was having a bad feeling about Artem at the beginning of the game but I really think he is trying to help. Since when lurkiness indicated GF status? Why do you think juls is town?

-In the games I've played/read, a GF player was always lurking and/or acting snobbish. Could be just the sample bias, but I doubt it.
-Regarding Juls, the deciding factor for me is her comments about Crazy. I was getting a weird vibe from Crazy, but wasn't saying anything because I didn't want Crazy to know that I suspect him. When Juls said that Crazy's arguments have been far-reaching, that 1) confirmed the weird vibe I was getting from Crazy and 2) told me that Juls sees the game in a similar way, likely because she has the same alignment as me. In addition, her scum-hunting arguments don't give me eyebrow raises, unlike some of the others.

Artem and Crazy could you specify your position against or pro afatchic?

My position has changed a few times:
-My initial problem with afatchic is in post 26;
-afatchic's responses that gave me a townie vibe are in 43 and 46;
-My view of afatchic as an anti-town player are in 95;
-My current view of afatchic as a poor town player are in 127;
(Also, 129 is either scum bluff or a townie getting ready to be lynched and shoot somebody);

Also, in the same post you both:
-Suspect Crazy/me of following Juls on her case;
-Accuse Juls of exaggerating a case against afatchic based on the early L-1 arguments, and the hypocritical "why the no vote" question (among others), which were not originally Juls's.

So, which one is it? A lot of players suspected afatchic at the beginning of the game (and rightly so). You seem to be grasping at straws to try and pin "your case is stolen/exaggerated/based on poor arguments" argument on somebody.

And just so we have all the suspicions in the same place:
Artem: suspects Tajo with afatchic/Crazy as partner;
Juls: suspects afatchic with Crazy/Tajo as partner;
Tajo: suspects Juls with Artem/Crazy as partner;
Crazy: suspects afatchic/Artem as the scum-pair;
afatchic: suspects Crazy (with Juls as partner?)

I need to think if there's a systematic way we can go about clearing suspicions.

[Artem]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

[populartajo]

Also, in the same post you both:
-Suspect Crazy/me of following Juls on her case;
-Accuse Juls of exaggerating a case against afatchic based on the early L-1 arguments, and the hypocritical "why the no vote" question (among others), which were not originally Juls's.

So, which one is it? A lot of players suspected afatchic at the beginning of the game (and rightly so). You seem to be grasping at straws to try and pin "your case is stolen/exaggerated/based on poor arguments" argument on somebody.

This is what I posted:

The fact that both Crazy and Artem both support(ed) afathic case is strange enough to think about a

remote

possiblity about them being the scumpair taking advantage of Juls making the case for them...

So its pretty obvious that the possibility Im considering the most is Juls scum with Crazy/Artem scumpair.
................
Now, about afatchic. I agree that many suspected afatchic at the beginning, including me. Suspicions went off with afatchic answering as a weak player, null tell in my book. Juls however brought these things again in post 83 and really exaggerated them. Just as an example,

Am I the only one that thinks that her attacks for not reading the wiki are not an exaggeration?

...............
Artem, can you explain why do you think Im scum?

[populartajo]

Will respond to Crazy when I have the time.

[Crazy]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

My preference would actually be (assuming the person lynched is town, of course):

-If Tajo's lynched, vig Artem.
(Artem/afatchic)
(Artem/Juls)
(Juls/afatchic)

-If Artem's lynched, vig Tajo.
(Tajo/afatchic)
(Tajo/Juls)
(Juls/afatchic)

-If afatchic's lynched, vig Artem.
(Artem/Juls)
(Artem/Tajo)
(Tajo/Juls)

-If Juls' lynched, vig afatchic.
(Artem/afatchic)
(Tajo/afatchic)
(Artem/Tajo)

The pairs in parentheses are the possible scum-teams if the lynchee is town, (from my POV, since I know I'm town, of course) listed in order from what I think is the most likely scumteam to the least likely scumteam. The person I want vigged if X is lynched is the one that's in both top scumpairs, if X is town.

If the question is just who I want to lynch, it's Artem or afatchic.

Am I the only one that thinks that her attacks for not reading the wiki are not an exaggeration?

I reread Juls' post... and you are really twisting her words there, don'tya think? Her case was that afatchic was playing ignorant (again, he doesn't need to be brilliant to pull it off, feigning ignorance about the setup to appear town is fairly common) Juls was not attacking afatchic for not reading the wiki; that's just ridiculous.

[Juls]

@Tajo: Please tell me if you have ever played with afatchic where he was scum?

@Artem: I would like afatchic lynched and I would say that if he was town to lynch Crazy. I base that on the idea that I think afatchic and tajo are a scum-pair after his afatchic defense that he has made in the past few posts. If I am wrong about that then Crazy is the next on my list.

[Artem]

Artem, can you explain why do you think Im scum?

I'm doubting myself a lot with your recent play. However, here are a few flags:
-You asked questions and never analyzed the responses. It's a pet peeve of mine when players start to "poll" everybody because they want "to get the conversation going". Such players only appear to be helpful, but in reality generate no really useful content;
-The vague "It's interesting.." or "It's noteworthy" that you never pursue;
-Laying low at the beginning, then coming out with guns blazing after your V/LA, as if you're trying to appease the town (the mod?) and make up for not posting much.
-You're accusing Crazy of not leaving much possibility for afatchic being town, yet you're doing exactly the same thing with Juls.

Most of these are very minor scum (anti-town?) tells, but I'm just not comfortable with the overall picture that I'm getting.

Also, are you waiting for everybody to answer my question, before you come up with the best answer that suits you?

[Plum]

Vote Count 06

afatchic - 2 - (Juls, Crazy)
Artem - 0 - (none)
Crazy - 1 - (afatchic)
populartajo - 1 - (Artem)
Juls - 1 - (populartajo)

Not Voting - 0 - none

With five players alive, it'll take three players to kick someone off the soccer field.

[populartajo]

I reread Juls' post... and you are really twisting her words there, don'tya think? Her case was that afatchic was playing ignorant (again, he doesn't need to be brilliant to pull it off, feigning ignorance about the setup to appear town is fairly common) Juls was not attacking afatchic for not reading the wiki; that's just ridiculous.

I definitely think Im not wrong in this.

In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded.

I mean, what does this sentence try to achieve? Why should afatchic have read the wiki and why is this used as an attack or evidence to support "playing ignorant" theory? See my point?

@Tajo: Please tell me if you have ever played with afatchic where he was scum?

No, I havent. I have played twice with him and he was town playing poorly. Like in this game.

I'm doubting myself a lot with your recent play. However, here are a few flags:
-You asked questions and never analyzed the responses. It's a pet peeve of mine when players start to "poll" everybody because they want "to get the conversation going". Such players only appear to be helpful, but in reality generate no really useful content;

I DID analyze the responses. What are you talking about? I came to the conclusion that afatchic was not scummy/ prob poor player and removed my vote from him. I came to the conclusion that you and Crazy were experienced. What? Did you want me to find scum in page 2?
Geez, acording to your logic, people lurking are scum. People trying to generate conversation are scum. Where is the line?

-The vague "It's interesting.." or "It's noteworthy" that you never pursue;

If I find something interesting I comment it on thread. Im looking for an answer and if Im cool with your answer I stop wondering about it. Its the obvious process, neh?

Laying low at the beginning, then coming out with guns blazing after your V/LA, as if you're trying to appease the town (the mod?) and make up for not posting much.

Dude, shit happens. I have already told you to check my level of contribution in all my current games. I have been neglecting every game Im in in this period. Things have settled down, luckily and you can see how Im improving my participation in all games.

-You're accusing Crazy of not leaving much possibility for afatchic being town, yet you're doing exactly the same thing with Juls.

Ok, I see your point. Ill tell you how I think. There is this pet peeve of mine about easy targets. Crazy and Juls prob know what Im talking about since we were in another game together.

In every game of mafia there is scum and town. Scum need to generate mislynches of townie to win. In the majority of my games there are town players playing poorly that become easy targets for scum, at least for one post. I have catched scum all my time here using this theory. And trust me, it works.

So, I think its easy to establish the analogy. Afatchic is prob the easy target. Compare his level of gaming and reasoning with Juls that seems at least a little more experienced with her elaborations. Juls is here the scum looking for the mislynch and it fits with the idea of she exagerating her case against afatchic to make him look worse than he should, soemthing a townie shouldnt be doing.

.

[populartajo]

EBWOP.
Forgot about that.

Also, are you waiting for everybody to answer my question, before you come up with the best answer that suits you?

What question are you talking about?

[populartajo]

Dang, "that" should be "this".

[Artem]

Post 155.

[populartajo]

Actually, to make it easier, can everybody say who they would like to see lynched and if that person flips town, who they would like to see vigged. In other words, which two people do you want to see cardflipped the most?

For me, Tajo lynched if Tajo flips town, Crazy vigged.

Have no idea how I missed this but I think the answer is obvious.
I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

[Artem]

Also, if somebody is playing poorly (being an "easy target"), how do you differentiate between scum and town that are building a case on him/her?

If Juls's case is an overexaggeration, then afatchic is not guilty of the things she's accusing him of. And if he's not guilty of those things, is he still an easy target? And if so, what kind of a case is not an overexaggeration?

[populartajo]

Also, if somebody is playing poorly (being an "easy target"), how do you differentiate between scum and town that are building a case on him/her?

If Juls's case is an overexaggeration, then afatchic is not guilty of the things she's accusing him of. And if he's not guilty of those things, is he still an easy target? And if so, what kind of a case is not an overexaggeration?

We have an interesting example here.
I really think Juls case is an exaggeration of things that do deserve some scrutiny but not to the levels of Juls' attacks. Thats why afatchic was mildy suspected at the beginning of the day and thats why we didnt peg her as obvscum in the first pages of the game. This means that she is mildly guilty of things but not the levels of obvscum that Juls is trying to explain.
Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

[Artem]

Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

I think this is a scum slip.

How do you know I'm town? You were suspecting me as Juls's partner not two posts ago.

You were mocking my points against you. Now all of a sudden, my case is a good example of a townie non-exaggerated case.

Also, this:

I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

is wishy-washy. I think you're trying to distance yourself from your buddy Crazy, but leave enough room to not commit to wanting to vig him. (Not that vigging would be up to you, if Juls got lynched and flipped town.)

[populartajo]

Town cases dont need to be exagerated. A good example of this is your case against me

but again, I should consider that you are way experienced than Juls and know this already.

I think this is a scum slip.

How do you know I'm town? You were suspecting me as Juls's partner not two posts ago.

You were mocking my points against you. Now all of a sudden, my case is a good example of a townie non-exaggerated case.

/facepalm. Why do I have to face these kind of players everytime?

Please, read my post better. This isnt a scum slip first because Im not scum. Second I used your case against me as an example of a non-exageratted post that needed clarification from my part. I explained it, you didnt ask more explanations, so I assume its all good. Yours, although wrong in some aspects, it a good post coming from a reasonable perspective.

BUT

You are experienced and you prob know this already. You know that scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town. Your queries feel protown, Im not sure about you.
I think you are more prob town than Juls but you also

can

be scum with her. I mean, look, the possibilities arent much and considering all the possibilities again is what we should be doing now.

Also, this:

I want Juls lynched and to vig either Crazy or Artem. Im still pondering things to decide the scumpair.

is wishy-washy. I think you're trying to distance yourself from your buddy Crazy, but leave enough room to not commit to wanting to vig him. (Not that vigging would be up to you, if Juls got lynched and flipped town.)

No. I just cant decide between you and Crazy.

[populartajo]

Artem, just curious, what posts from Juls feel protown?

[Artem]

Please, read my post better. This isnt a scum slip first because Im not scum. Second I used your case against me as an example of a non-exageratted post that needed clarification from my part. I explained it, you didnt ask more explanations, so I assume its all good. Yours, although wrong in some aspects, it a good post coming from a reasonable perspective.

The problem is that I got no sense of my perspective being reasonable from your responses. You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

I didn't ask for any more explanations because as I said earlier those are very minor scum tells, but I'm getting a scum vibe from the entire collection. Call it an itemized gut feeling if you will.

You are experienced and you prob know this already. You know that scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town. Your queries feel protown, Im not sure about you.
I think you are more prob town than Juls but you also can be scum with her. I mean, look, the possibilities arent much and considering all the possibilities again is what we should be doing now.

I don't buy the "I don't know how to read experienced players" card. This is not your first game here either. I'm sure that not everybody you've played with in the past was a newbie. You want to appear as if you've nailed afatchic and Juls, but having troubles with me and Crazy, because we're somehow more experienced. Just an FYI, afatchic played more games than me. I'm yet to complete my first ten games.

Besides, newb-scum also understand the concept of "scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town."

Artem, just curious, what posts from Juls feel protown?

This one:

I understood what you meant, Artem. And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type. I am, however, torn between Crazy and tajo as the other scum. Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you and tajo is lurking. I am not willing to hammer right now. And I will give ample warning before I even consider it. I really want to hear from tajo at this point. I think afatchic is V/LA too?

I just really can't see a mafia making it. I've been very careful not to drop any hints that I suspect Crazy. Why would a mafia come out and start accusing my accuser, when it's not even clear what my stance on them is? It doesn't make sense from a buddying perspective, but it does make sense from a scum-hunting perspective, because Crazy's arguments

have

been far-reaching.

In turn, will you tell me why you suspect Crazy? Since I think that you two are buddies, I'd like to see you spend sometime describing your thoughts about him.

[Artem]

You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

Sorry, I should clarify. You made it look like my points against you are ridiculous and obviously wrong and now you're saying that I had a reasonable perspective.

[Juls]

Unvote, vote populartajo

Tajo has now worked his way to the top of my scum list. He is taking my least important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum and hammering it as the only reason. And he is using that sole reason for claiming I am scum.