Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[populartajo]

I don't buy the "I don't know how to read experienced players" card. This is not your first game here either. I'm sure that not everybody you've played with in the past was a newbie. You want to appear as if you've nailed afatchic and Juls, but having troubles with me and Crazy, because we're somehow more experienced. Just an FYI, afatchic played more games than me. I'm yet to complete my first ten games.

Ok, I think its time to draw a line between being newbie and playing poorly. At first I though afatchic was a newbie because I played with him in a newbie game (he was a newbie) not much ago. Now we know he isnt that newbie. But do you agree that he is playing poorly?
There is a big difference with you, Crazy and Juls. Any of you, as scum, have more probabilities of tricking me than afatchic. For obvious reasons. Thats why I cant decide with such facility if you are scum or not. Geez, this game isnt that easy.

Besides, newb-scum also understand the concept of "scum to win shouldnt act as scum, scum should act as town."

Yes but they have more probabilities of sucking at it than an experienced scum.

I just really can't see a mafia making it. I've been very careful not to drop any hints that I suspect Crazy. Why would a mafia come out and start accusing my accuser, when it's not even clear what my stance on them is? It doesn't make sense from a buddying perspective, but it does make sense from a scum-hunting perspective, because Crazy's arguments have been far-reaching.

What about Juls distancing from Crazy, specially knowing that she has been going all-attack mode against afatchic but not of his another suspects?

In turn, will you tell me why you suspect Crazy? Since I think that you two are buddies, I'd like to see you spend sometime describing your thoughts about him.

I suspect everyone that jumped against afatchic. I assume one scum was aggressive (Juls) and the other is trying to be subtle. Thats why its hard to decide between you and Crazy. There is some subtle defending of Juls in some posts. Im not too sure about that arguments that have been far-reaching. Could you point me to them?

[populartajo]

You more or less explained how every point I made against you is ridiculous that there's no room for doubt of me being wrong.

Sorry, I should clarify. You made it look like my points against you are ridiculous and obviously wrong and now you're saying that I had a reasonable perspective.

I never said they were ridiculous. They are in their majority wrong but I can also see town asking clarifications or things that arent clear at first glance. My point is that you looked for things you wanted an answer with no necessity of exaggeration.

[populartajo]

Unvote, vote populartajo

Tajo has now worked his way to the top of my scum list. He is taking my least important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum and hammering it as the only reason. And he is using that sole reason for claiming I am scum.

ORLY?
What is your important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum?
Even more, do you think I am scum with afatchic?

[Juls]

Yes I think you are scum with afatchic and I posted ALL of my reasons for thinking afatchic is scum in post 149 in response to your questions! RTFT!

[populartajo]

Ok, just checking if you wouldnt look for others.

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?

In order of what I feel is most important to least:

• 1. Complete lack of scum-hunting (implied if not explicitly said in Post 85)
  2. Random vote on Crazy that he says was "to pressure" Crazy (noted in Post 78)
  3. Hypocritically (and reaching) challenging Crazy and Artem for not voting. This looks like an attempt to build a weak case on either or the two.
  4. Making irrational vig threats. I can see scum doing this as a way to intimidate a townie to remove their vote. As I said before, I think he is pushing it so hard that it doesn't seem like a natural townie reaction. Instead of doing this, I would expect a town to answer my accusations calmly and logically.
  5. OMGUSing and acting emo because he played with me in another game.
  6. Questioning the rules early in the game. I have seen too many times someone ask the question "how many scum are there in this sort of game?" when they are scum. I consider this type of question a minor scum tell especially when it is noted clearly in the rules.

1. Could he be town playing poorly? Yes or no?
2. Why is this a scumtell?
3. We agree that afatchic is a hypocrit. How is he reaching?
4. We disagree here. Why would a town answer your accusations calmyly and logically if he is about to be lynched and you accuse him with weak and exaggerated attacks?
5. Not a scumtell.
6. Not a scumtell.

So, at any point in your reasoning, the idea of afatchic being town has crossed your mind?

[Juls]

So, at any point in your reasoning, the idea of afatchic being town has crossed your mind?

That is why I am asking you for games that you have played with afatchic where he was scum. I would like to see one. The guy has like 2000 posts and I find it difficult to find time to wade through them all. I will have time to do it on the weekend but if you have one that he has played in handy as scum I would like to take a look at it! I will also answer your first question once I have this information.

Question #2: I think defending his vote as a pressure vote was scummy. The fact is that he put the vote on Crazy in the random phase, was trying to solicit votes from you and Artem, and when asked about it claimed it was a pressure vote. He has went back and forth between saying we must be careful with our votes, to chastising you and Artem for not having votes, to claiming its ok to have a random/"pressure" vote on Crazy. It's scummy and inconsistent.

Question #3: Reaching, as in looking for something that doesn't exist, such as when he was trying to make an argument against you and Artem for not voting. It was weak.

Question#4: Fallacy. He wasn't about to be lynch. Sure he was at L-1 but if someone quick hammers in this game without reason they are scum...hands down. So yes, I think everyone should be calm in this game...especially D1. If you think it was scummy how you are lynched you have a vig kill to counter act the damage. If you are town, convince me why someone else should be lynched, not threaten me. My comments on this come from MY feelings by his threats. It made me nervous that my vote could lose us the game. If I am wrong about him and he vigs me we insta-lose. So I see a threat as being dangerous to town. If I then move my vote because of these feelings to a real townsperson then scum have accomplished their goal.

5&6 are differences of opinions. I'm not going to argue with you if you don't agree with me about them.

[Crazy]

I don't have time to post now, but I will later. My last post made me want to analyze further all possible scum-pairs.

[populartajo]

Marathon Day absorbed me yesterday and I really dont want to play mafia for a day. Cy tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Unvote

Okay, I'm not going as in-depth as I thought I would, but whatever. And obviously my opinions have changed slightly since my last real post. From least likely scumteam to most likely, IMO:

I don't think Juls and afatchic are scum together, because it would mean that they were both bussing each other on Page 4.. and whether afatchic is scum or town, I think his emotional appeal "I'll vig Juls if I'm lynched, etc." was real (I've never seen scum fake something so ridiculous) which means I'm doubting a Juls/afatchic scumteam.

Juls and Tajo also requires a double-bus. And since Tajo has been so dead-on tunneled on Juls, and Juls put Tajo at L-1, it's still hard to see it.

Earlier I was thinking that Tajo/Artem was a strong possibility, mainly due to Artem's urging to take Tajo off L-1 (LOL!), but with the recent battle between those two, that possibility is much lesser now.

afatchic/Artem is still a strong possibility in my mind. Artem's unvote off afatchic early Day 1 still sticks out, as well as voting Tajo after making a case on afatchic. I've said all this before.

afatchic/Tajo is one of the most obvious conclusions to come to out there... due to afatchic's ridiculous buddying earlier today, as well as Tajo's refusal to see him as scum. I'm just worried that this scumteam is

too

obvious.

Artem/Juls is currently my top pick. I'm at school right now, though, and the bell just rang, so I gotta go. I'll explain later, bye!

[populartajo]

Juls, one question before I reread all that has been posted.
Has your opinion of me changed after the War in Heaven marathon game?

[Plum]

Afatchic is noted V/LA.

Vote Count 07

afatchic - 0 - (none)
Artem - 0 - (none)
Crazy - 1 - (afatchic)
populartajo - 2 - (Artem, Juls)
Juls - 1 - (populartajo)

Not Voting - 1 - Crazy

With five players alive, it'll take three players to trample someone under the merry-go-round.

[Juls]

@tajo: Not really. I think it is like comparing apples and oranges. In a fast paced game like that you fly by the hip whereas in a game like this you have more time to be calculated and maticulous. To be EXTREMELY honest I spent 3/4 of that game trying to figure out when I had heal/hurt charges. I think that's why I slipped under the radar. I was genuinely confused. Did anything in that game change your opinion about me?

I am going to do a reread this weekend (of all my games) because I have got behind by playing the marathon games and finishing up some last minute school assignments before spring break. I am also going to look for an afatchic game where he was scum.

[Artem]

Could you point me to them?

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

Based on the events since my last post, I'm inclined to think Tajo is the GF and afatchic is the goon.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

[Artem]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

[Crazy]

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

For the first one, I explained why I thought that was bull-crap. You accused afatchic for a certain reason. After he explained, that reason still didn't change. The point of a defense is not to give out townie points, but it's to clear your name of what you originally did. The same facts were true before his "defense," and the same facts were true after.

-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

You voted Tajo for "the events that have happened since my last post." Why would you think I would assume that to mean "because Tajo has continued to lurk" instead of "since what afatchic said about Tajo." Someone lurking is not an "event," you know.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

Because, as I understood your original case, you based your vote on Tajo completely on afatchic's buddying up to him. (Maybe that's not true, but you could see how I could interpret it my way.)

Look, Artem, I'm not saying my case on you is perfect, but I don't think it's as scummy or "far-reaching" as you say. What you're really doing is attacking me for scum-hunting. Should I just hold my opinions until I get a perfect, "X is obvscum" case?

[populartajo]

@tajo: Not really. I think it is like comparing apples and oranges. In a fast paced game like that you fly by the hip whereas in a game like this you have more time to be calculated and maticulous. To be EXTREMELY honest I spent 3/4 of that game trying to figure out when I had heal/hurt charges. I think that's why I slipped under the radar. I was genuinely confused. Did anything in that game change your opinion about me?

No cuz you lurked
I was thinking more in the idea that I pegged Cybele as town playing poorly and we commented about this. Can you make the analogy here with afatchic and tell me if it could influence your read on me in this game?

[populartajo]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

[populartajo]

I think that Crazy was over-pushy in two situations:
-My unvote for afatchic. Even though I've explained over and over that I unvoted because I got a townie read from his responses;
-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

For the first one, I explained why I thought that was bull-crap. You accused afatchic for a certain reason. After he explained, that reason still didn't change. The point of a defense is not to give out townie points, but it's to clear your name of what you originally did. The same facts were true before his "defense," and the same facts were true after.

-His idea that I built a case on afatchic but voted Tajo instead, even though the real reason for the vote came from:

You voted Tajo for "the events that have happened since my last post." Why would you think I would assume that to mean "because Tajo has continued to lurk" instead of "since what afatchic said about Tajo." Someone lurking is not an "event," you know.

Why should I vote for who I think is the goon rather than who I think is the GF?

Because, as I understood your original case, you based your vote on Tajo completely on afatchic's buddying up to him. (Maybe that's not true, but you could see how I could interpret it my way.)

Look, Artem, I'm not saying my case on you is perfect, but I don't think it's as scummy or "far-reaching" as you say. What you're really doing is attacking me for scum-hunting. Should I just hold my opinions until I get a perfect, "X is obvscum" case?

Crazy, who do you think is scum?

Mod: prod afatchic.

[Crazy]

Oh yeah, I forgot I was supposed to say why Artem/Juls were the scumteam. I will later, though.

My other top picks are in my last post, there.

[Artem]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

Yep, my bet is still on you and Crazy and between the two of you I feel that you're more likely the GF than Crazy.

I still think Crazy is trying to appear townie like he would in a non-vengeful game.

And I still think that you tearing apart my point against you and then calling my case a good example of a townie case is inconsistent. I know Crazy will jump all over me with this: but you didn't get any townie points for your responses.

After afatchic checks in and posts an update on his thoughts, I say we decide on somebody to lynch. I think that everybody has posted enough thoughts to know who's suspicious of who, that if we mislynch the vigilante should be able to make a good choice.

[populartajo]

And my bet is still on Tajo and Crazy.

After rebutting all your queries and not having an answer back do you still think that Im scum, even more, the GF?

Yep, my bet is still on you and Crazy and between the two of you I feel that you're more likely the GF than Crazy.

I still think Crazy is trying to appear townie like he would in a non-vengeful game.

And I still think that you tearing apart my point against you and then calling my case a good example of a townie case is inconsistent. I know Crazy will jump all over me with this: but you didn't get any townie points for your responses.

After afatchic checks in and posts an update on his thoughts, I say we decide on somebody to lynch. I think that everybody has posted enough thoughts to know who's suspicious of who, that if we mislynch the vigilante should be able to make a good choice.

Its not inconsistent. Ive told you that your case is a good example of a case being wrong but coming from a townie perspective. Not because you are town it means you should be right everytime.
Why I am more likely GF?
No more comments of afatchic and Juls?

[populartajo]

Oh yeah, I forgot I was supposed to say why Artem/Juls were the scumteam. I will later, though.

My other top picks are in my last post, there.

What happened to afatchic?

[Plum]

Mod: prod afatchic.

Afatchic is noted V/LA.

He said his V/LA would run from Monday through Friday (today) of this week. Hence I'm not prodding him at this point.

[Juls]

afatchic, this is your life...(btw, this was 1904 posts...I am tired...cut me some slack if there is a mistake or two).

Role Unknown Games

Mini 714 - Unknown
Open 123 - Unknown
Open 114 - Unknown
Mini 752 - Unknown
Mini 751 - Unknown
Open 118 - Unknown
Open 111 - Unknown
Mini 657 - Unknown?

Games with Town Alignment

Newbie 704 - Townie
Mini 703 - Townie
Mini 729 - Courier (Town)
Open 106 - Compulsive Vigilante
Mini 677 - Naive Doctor
Mini 723 - Townie (self hammer)
Mini 680 - Cop
Mini 727 - Townie
Newbie 671 - Townie
Open 93 - Townie
Newbie 706 - Doctor
Mini 721 - Townie
Mini 656 - Weak Doctor
Open 95 - Hider (Town)
Mini 668 - Town Referee
Newbie 663 - Townie
Open 93 - Townie
Mini 682 - Townie
Mini 665 - Townie (Mod Abandoned)
Newbie 655 - Townie
Newbie 637 - Townie

Games with Scum Alignment

Open 120 - Rebel (Scum)
667 - Mafia Godfather
Mini 706 - Mafia
Newbie 664 - Mafia goon
Mafia 653 - Mafia Goon (replaced in, 2 posts)
Mini 650 - Mafia Goon
Newbie 661 - Mafia Goon (claimed Mafia, voted self)


Let me preface by saying I paid attention to the games in which his alignment was mafia. I wanted to check if my arguments were valid when he was scum to counter tajo's suggestion that he was just townie playing poorly. This is what I found:

This

Can someone correct me if im wrong:

We are all Vanilla Townies, except for scum, and whatever is in the room we go into, is what power we become. for instance, if we have a pair of binoculars in our room, we become a watcher.... does that sound right?

and This

So this setup confuses me a bit...

would the rebels be Vanilla townies.... Guards be traitors... king be Mafia Godfather..

...sure does look a lot like what I described before. Scum asking questions to seem naive. Looks an awful lot like this too:

Do the scum auto lose if the GF is vig'ed? is says if he is ever killed, but nothing about being vig'ed.

Then there is the threats...

or maybe you are scum? that sounds a little better. if you was the doc why did you remove your vote so quickly when i claimed? you just realize that if you can get them to lynch me you can NK LK and scum are likely to win.

This is afatchic threatening the real doctor after he (afatchic) fake-claimed being the doctor. Looks an awful lot like this too:

k. then lynch me and ill prove you wrong, when you die with me.

And i don't consider that a threat, but more like a promise, or early warning. Right now if i die, Juls dies with me.

Lack of scum-hunting....

Not a big surprise that scum don't tend to scum-hunt as genuinely as townies but Mafia 667 is an example of general lack of scum hunting. He is called out on it by several players.

So...I am happy with the thought that afatchic/tajo are the scum pair in this game. I feel most confident that afatchic is scum of the two but I believe Artem to be the most solid townie player and his feelings are more strongly in favor of tajo so my vote will stay there.

[populartajo]

Juls, did you check his play as town too?

From my perspective I think afatchic is prob town playing poorly. Why from your perspective he cant be doing that, or at least have a neutral behaviour in this game?

Why are YOU so sure he is scum? Ive given you reasons to make you rethink afatchic behavior and that Ive seen a bazillion of townies playing poorly being lynched D1 all the time. Have you?. The thing that really bugs me is WHY are you so blind to that possibility?

What are your current thought of Crazy?

Why do you think I am scum with afatchic? Just becuase Im defending him or there is anything else?

Why do you think Artem is town?