Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]

[Ausuka]

VOTE: fireisredsir

omgus + fire is orange

[Ausuka]

What’s up Ausuka and T3.

Hi uh not much. I am currently eating vanilla flavour ice cream

VOTE: Hu Tao worst entrance probably

[Ausuka]

I'm just conftowon gg

True!

[Ausuka]

I'm just conftowon gg

yes
I am greener than the grass in my lawn

what prompted this lol

He is conftowon

Fire is that a srs vote

[Ausuka]

it is an expression of my happiness vote

but also maybe what are you a cop

i can't believe you would rolefish me like this

[Ausuka]

oh yeah no I'd already thought that but there didn't seem to be all that much gameplay discussion except for the

Hu Tao

thing I think

Speaking of which @Ausuka: Was that a serious vote?

To the extent any vote on page 2 is serious, yeah

[Ausuka]

hu tao has posted a total of one word

i feel like the vote is kinda self explanatory

one might say it is not elaboratable

I did a statistical analysis and found that players with names beginning with 'h' are more likely to roll scum

I don't have any issue elaborating but it's probably the expected answer - I think while it's also playstyle dependent, scum are more likely to make that kind of minimalist entrance / feel less comfortable engaging at the start.

[Ausuka]

man i’m having a real hard time following this game! y’all are posting so much it’s almost like hyperposting is a way to townlead

"defensive" is a bit of a weird read of that post

agree and i think that maybe my wagon knows something about me

In what way are you having trouble following it? Also like, can you explain what 112 is getting at because I don't think I understand

[Ausuka]

Fwiw i think happy is pretty towny here and genuinely believes what he is saying. I was very cautious of fire making what looked like a push on him because his posts don't make sense (which I broadly agree with but is not scummy) but since fire stopped doing it before anyone called it out I am less worried now

VOTE: cook

[Ausuka]

cook wagon slowly building.
I need to see the people on the wagon's justifications, don't just give "oh idk bc of the vibes" as a reason
rvs is a valid reason

I wanted to give her a chance to answer my questions first but it doesn't seem like she's interested in doing that so shrug. I think 111 and 112 are worded in a way where I'm not sure I'm not misunderstanding anything but my concerns are

1) She says, "man i’m having a real hard time following this game! y’all are posting so much" which is a fairly common sentiment to see in games but I can't say I've ever seen it on page 5. She had made a few posts already and they were pretty evenly spread out throughout the thread, but the posts weren't game related; I don't think she was struggling to keep up with the post volume. I think it's more likely she was struggling to engage in scumhunting/alignment discussion which is something I think comes from scum more often.

2) Struggling to keep up with mafia play is, like, +scum chance but also something that can come from people of either alignment who haven't played in a while. In this case, I think it's more likely than usual to come from mafia cook because she tries to paint it as people being hyperactive and flooding the thread rather than her being disengaged from mafia; I think this shows an interest in like, Not Looking Bad and it doesn't feel like it's organic posting I guess. Similarly, she later implies that she's being voted for inactivity when in reality cook has been like, right in the middle of postcount at pretty much all times.

3) with 112 I still don't really get what it means so I don't want to jump to conclusions here but it felt like piggybacking fire's 'push' on happy (which in hindsight wasn't a real push i guess) which felt sort of bad

[Ausuka]

I think wagons are protown and the concern feels overblown to me

[Ausuka]

There's nothing protown about rushing a wagon to E-2 within like 4 hours of the game starting.

I think early wagons are fine, I think e-2 is really not that big of a deal, and I don't think the wagon is 'rushed' - I like the Cook vote

[Ausuka]

Mine

[Ausuka]

1) She says, "man i’m having a real hard time following this game! y’all are posting so much"

You are all posting too much this one says Cook is right here.

I mean cook has more posts than me

[Ausuka]

so that leaves katykimfanclub, ausuka, and fireisredsir unanswered for their votes. not going to jump to conclusions yet but i think there's a red somewhere in these three, statistically at least.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Ausuka]

What’s up Ausuka and T3.

Hi uh not much. I am currently eating vanilla flavour ice cream

VOTE: Hu Tao worst entrance probably

How are you?

I just woke up and am not eating vanilla ice cream

[Ausuka]

There's nothing protown about rushing a wagon to E-2 within like 4 hours of the game starting.

I think early wagons are fine, I think e-2 is really not that big of a deal, and I don't think the wagon is 'rushed' - I like the Cook vote

Genuine question, are we all interacting just to have a corpus of information for later days or is there just disagreement from an optimal play perspective on whether an early bandwagon is good or not. It looks to me like Cook was never in any real danger of getting enough votes to be killed and we should all move on.

VOTE: UNVOTE: Cook

I agree Cook was never in any actual danger. I think wagons are good for having information for later days, and e-2 is really not that big of a deal, whereas some people think e-2 is like Serious Business. I think the people saying that probably genuinely believe it although that doesn't necessarily make them town.

[Ausuka]

so that leaves katykimfanclub, ausuka, and fireisredsir unanswered for their votes. not going to jump to conclusions yet but i think there's a red somewhere in these three, statistically at least.

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

What?

I made a pretty long post outlining my justification for thinking Cook is scum and also asked her questions which got ignored

Katykimfanclub's vote was in rvs and putting her as part of this group definitely needs explanation

[Ausuka]

There's nothing protown about rushing a wagon to E-2 within like 4 hours of the game starting.

I think early wagons are fine, I think e-2 is really not that big of a deal, and I don't think the wagon is 'rushed' - I like the Cook vote

Genuine question, are we all interacting just to have a corpus of information for later days or is there just disagreement from an optimal play perspective on whether an early bandwagon is good or not. It looks to me like Cook was never in any real danger of getting enough votes to be killed and we should all move on.

VOTE: UNVOTE: Cook

I agree Cook was never in any actual danger. I think wagons are good for having information for later days, and e-2 is really not that big of a deal, whereas some people think e-2 is like Serious Business. I think the people saying that probably genuinely believe it although that doesn't necessarily make them town.

So, to this one: You're not naming names but you are insinuating that cook is sus from defending themselves from a flash wagon you were on, while undermining her saying there could have b3en scum on it.

No

[Ausuka]

Do you and hpe know each other or something?

[Ausuka]

Not really? He's probably more likely to be town than most of the list but I wouldn't say I 'fully trust' anyone at this point

[Ausuka]

Why can't Cook's actions be natural here? If this one was placed in elimination range within a mere day of busy posts, many long, they might also be bothered. And Cook not being this one having her own life might be more bothered.

Do you have any experience with Cook to guage them on this level? Most of your arguments seem to rest on such a conclusion.

A lot of people are sheeping your sentiments on wagons and early wagons but forget that randomly running up town can be severely anti town, especially day ones and especially if claims are forced. It's also a good way for scum to pr hunt. So. Black and Italiano straight up agreeing with you, this one notes it.

Cook's actions

can

be natural - I never claimed Cook was confirmed scum or something. I think she is the most likely player to flip scum at the moment by a fair margin but there's still a good chance she flips town. I usually don't think anyone has above 50% probability to be scum on day 1.

You misread my post about the wagon thing - I wasn't referring to Cook specifically. You, HPE and cook all expressed similar sentiments about it. I think it's very likely your feelings about it are genuine but also noted that doesn't necessarily mean you're town - scum often express genuine beliefs about things like mafia theory.

My argument isn't based on having experience with Cook specifically - as far as I can tell she hasn't played mafia in years so having that kind of experience would be impossible for anyone. My feeling that her post about keeping up wasn't organic is based on two things
1) it was page 5 at the time which isn't a lot
2) cook had plenty of posts at the time, more than most people - not all at one time either, she had at least one post on every page

Well, when I say it wasn't organic, again it gives me the feelings that scumhunting specifically is what she's struggling to keep up with but doesn't want to come out and say that

[Ausuka]

What do you think about the two main wagons? This one has realized a lot their provisional towns are voting other provisional towns.

I don't really have a strong read on HPE or invis. I think of the two HPE is probably the better vote because it was very focused on calling the wagon anti town but didn't like talk at all about who's scum on it. In comparison someone like you coming in and voting me for it is a more natural approach.

I don't think invis has done anything I would really call AI. I guess being so comfortable speaking in the thread early is +town but above average scum players can fake that pretty easily and he hasn't played scum in a while so I'm not sure what her skill level is

[Ausuka]

I agree that HPE's sentiment about the wagon is probably genuine, I don't think that necessarily means it is town

Maybe I'm wrong but the impression I got is that you were talking specifically about the lack of a vote from HPE as being typical for it, whereas the part that made me a bit was the lack of like, any alignment discussion whatsoever in favour of the theory point of "early wagons are anti town"

[Ausuka]

My personal view is that asri's approach to the cook wagon was the towniest of the 'cook wagon is bad' people by a lot

I think voting and pushing me for putting her at e-2 logically follows much better from the feeling of the wagon's growth being scum motivated compared to what Cook and HPE were saying at the time. I think like poking at people on the wagon and agreeing with the offended is probably the approach I'd expect from town with that view, and I get the feeling they genuinely believe the things they say confidently even though I don't understand most of it

I think cook's approach to it was probably the worst - stuff like including the RVS vote alongside me and fire after saying the growth of the wagon was specifically scum motivated, and saying my vote was unexplained when it was like the most explained vote on the wagon, indicates she's like not really hunting organically on the wagon to find the mafia and just going through the motions

As I said I didn't like HPE not commenting on who on the wagon was scum, or even really if it scumreads the wagon or just finds it anti town, but I think it's more likely to be town struggling for motivation compared to Cook's approach

[Ausuka]

I think it's very unlikely Italiano's sentiment was meant to pocket me - it's a really common view to think early wagons are anti-town, so I don't think the default assumption should be that there's bad motives there, and anyway Italiano commented on liking wagons before the whole argument really took off

[Ausuka]

Fwiw I tentatively agree with fire that hu tao is probably town now because their posts have a "I am in the right here and all of you are fucking stupid" vibe (exaggerating obviously) - having said this I am not giving townpoints for this doing forward so don't do it

I think 263 is +town because I think it's a fine observation and fire is like, kind of the opposite of an easy target here.

[Ausuka]

I think it's very unlikely Italiano's sentiment was meant to pocket me - it's a really common view to think early wagons are anti-town, so I don't think the default assumption should be that there's bad motives there, and anyway Italiano commented on liking wagons before the whole argument really took off

i think its a reasonable thought for asri to have

he's seemed kinda buddying to me at times

I mean I think asri is town too, I just don't agree with the read for the reasons I stated and I think italiano is probably town

[Ausuka]

Black do you have a reason for suspecting the cook wagon other than "there is usually scum in a group of five people"

[Ausuka]

ausuka you asked... one question. i missed it. why is that such a big deal to you

It isn't?

[Ausuka]

ausuka you asked... one question. i missed it. why is that such a big deal to you

It isn't?

then why bring it up twice?

Because I can and because I think it was relevant - I don't think not answering the question is scummy in itself, but it supports the argument of other things, like you not really seeming to actually care that much about sorting the wagon. Like it's possible that you missed the question and you missed my explanation and you decided to include a RVS vote in your POE and you actually did see sorting your wagon as a priority, but in combination these things aren't that likely. Also, twice is like, not a very high amount.

man i’m having a real hard time following this game! y’all are posting so much it’s almost like hyperposting is a way to townlead

"defensive" is a bit of a weird read of that post

agree and i think that maybe my wagon knows something about me

In what way are you having trouble following it? Also like, can you explain what 112 is getting at because I don't think I understand

i couldn't follow if fire, invisibility, and happy were saying

anything

of substance.

112... what do you want me to say?

112 wasn't really a push question, I just genuinely do not understand what you're trying to say. like 'maybe my wagon knows something about me' - what do they know? Is this related to a scumread on happy?

[Ausuka]

I don't think veryhappy is scum right now

I'm not really trying to predict the entire scumteam - I think the odds of that working this early are very low. But like, there are people like T3 and S_S and Katykim who could easily be scum here because they haven't really done a lot. There are also people like Black who aren't really scummy outright but I'm not townreading at this point. I'm not really close to hard-townreading enough people where I'm running out of potential scum candidates.

[Ausuka]

I don't think veryhappy is scum right now

I'm not really trying to predict the entire scumteam - I think the odds of that working this early are very low. But like, there are people like T3 and S_S and Katykim who could easily be scum here because they haven't really done a lot. There are also people like Black who aren't really scummy outright but I'm not townreading at this point. I'm not really close to hard-townreading enough people where I'm running out of potential scum candidates.

SRing low activity players is a very noncommittal choice there ausuka. actually you're being really middle-of-the-road

What am I supposed to say, they couldn't easily be scum? SS is locktown because it came to me in a dream?

[Ausuka]

I think I've done plenty of that. If anything, I'd be interested to hear *your* reads on the people who are present

[Ausuka]

Can you elaborate on why you think that was pocketing?

[Ausuka]

Uh I thought invisibility's pivoting of the 'association' theory onto an italiano vote was scummy at first but looking back and at 347 I can actually see why he would think that and it's probably +town

I don't think I agree though, italiano's posts were mostly defending himself from candybargate

[Ausuka]

People I Want To Townread

Ausuka

. i wish i could trust you and hope we're the same team so that better scumhunting is a thing, but i can't get visions of you flipping red out of my head

I'm sort of confused about this. I mean, from the perspective of town Cook, my play so far has basically been to put a townie at e-2 which you seem to think is a majorly anti-town play, make a big post accusing that townie of being scum in a way you seem to disapprove of, and apparently you think my play is non-committal and I speak in hypotheticals - I would object to this since it seems to be based on one post responding to someone asking me about a hypothetical, but this isn't that relevant. From this point of view, town Ausuka would be playing a pretty bad game. What I'm trying to say is, what about my play so far makes you wish I was town?

[Ausuka]

imo t3 is the scummiest of the low posters

that said im not sure if its just that my main experience with t3 is playing scum with him when he didn't really do anything

I modded t3 as scum and he was really active and like everyone townread him for most of the game but his partners were obv and they didn't nightkill the power roles so he got PoEd

I guess I will look at his meta to see if that has changed

[Ausuka]

People I Want To Townread

Ausuka

. i wish i could trust you and hope we're the same team so that better scumhunting is a thing, but i can't get visions of you flipping red out of my head

I'm sort of confused about this. I mean, from the perspective of town Cook, my play so far has basically been to put a townie at e-2 which you seem to think is a majorly anti-town play, make a big post accusing that townie of being scum in a way you seem to disapprove of, and apparently you think my play is non-committal and I speak in hypotheticals - I would object to this since it seems to be based on one post responding to someone asking me about a hypothetical, but this isn't that relevant. From this point of view, town Ausuka would be playing a pretty bad game. What I'm trying to say is, what about my play so far makes you wish I was town?

i see the parts of a good player in you and wish i didn't feel like i was on the receiving end of them

I guess I'm asking what you see? It might seem pointless, but my perspective before was that a town Cook wouldn't like my play and wanted to push me because of that and that's why you calling me non-committal even though I've given plenty of actual reads outside that one post that was answering a question about guessing the scumteam on like page 10 might still be town, so like I want to understand what your view actually is

[Ausuka]

I don't believe this cclaim yet as buddying scum can claim masons and go haha I'm cowonftown
but no
I'm the only cowonftpwn

Italiano and Invisibility are absolutely real masons. Invisibility softed this earlier by repeatedly insisting Italiano is scum. I will not hear any slander of this claim

[Ausuka]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

If you're just a vanilla then say so.

I disagree that italiano should claim vanilla

I think the claim is obviously silly but just retracting the claim should be enough

[Ausuka]

Yes, we should avoid unnecessary claims

[Ausuka]

Next time I play scum I'm going to fakeclaim mason with the person who scumreads me the most and I'll let you guys know how it goes

[Ausuka]

This one doesn't wanna immediately jump to "Scum!!!!!!" on Italiano but this has been such a strange fucking play.

What's your read on Italiano right now? Like maybe I'm having bad reading comprehension but this feels like it could be anywhere from neutral to scum and I'd like to hear more from you in particular

[Ausuka]

I can confirm I wasn't taking the mason claim seriously. Tbh I thought it was just NAI and I'd like to move on from it.

On the subject of pocketing, does anyone think the cook "I want ausuka to be town for better scumhunting" thing sounds like pocketing with the context we don't know each other

Ideally I'd start pushing someone other than cook as well but I don't think there's an obvious target for that. I'd like to hear KKFC comment more on people who are not happy; my read on happy is that he is like majorly limbaity.

[Ausuka]

I currently townread HPE because it's been a while now since the game started and I think it has been in like, second gear at best the entire time. It did a pretty impressive sweep in the team mafia Mario game against some really good players and it looked nothing like this. I think its play feeling, uh, kind of disorganised? might be a towntell for it because, like, its play doesn't feel structured around getting townread and it's not a skill issue

[Ausuka]

I mean if you click on asri's previous topics the 'copying speech pattern' is clearly not specific to this game and therefore NAI

It's pooooooossible that I'm slightly tunneled at this point but I really don't like 449

[Ausuka]

I currently townread HPE because it's been a while now since the game started and I think it has been in like, second gear at best the entire time. It did a pretty impressive sweep in the team mafia Mario game against some really good players and it looked nothing like this. I think its play feeling, uh, kind of disorganised? might be a towntell for it because, like, its play doesn't feel structured around getting townread and it's not a skill issue

Erynis feels scum informed and the way they act is reactive. The Italiano push doesn't read as geniune.

I mean I definitely understand why someone wouldn't like the italiano push and it's definitely true that it has been reactive. We probably disagree on whether that's a scumtell and I'm not going to like demand that you agree with me because not everyone is on board with this kind of read

I guess the best way I can put it is that if HPE was scum I think people would like its posts more

[Ausuka]

I think the assertion I have been focused on self defense this game is pretty difficult to understand, especially since I like haven't really been pushed at all?

[Ausuka]

Saying if Erynis is scum no one would be pushing it. As happy pointed out that wagon is dead.

I wouldn't really say we've had wagons in this game since the whole Cook situation

I think it's fair to say that most people don't like HPE's posts, and I probably wouldn't be townreading it if not for the meta thing because there isn't a whole lot there. The main point of my read is how different it feels to the very recent scumgame HPE played in a way that isn't very likely to benefit it - HPE scum would make sense if HPE wasn't very good at scum, but that's not true, so either it's just having a really bad game for an extended period of time, it 9000iq'd that someone would bring this up or it's town

[Ausuka]

I think the assertion I have been focused on self defense this game is pretty difficult to understand, especially since I like haven't really been pushed at all?

Tbh I think that's where the vibes might come from. You haven't really been pushed at all, but the couple of times someone has even hinted that you might not be town, your reaction didn't feel good

For example, 357 feels more like you're justifying your play than you are solving for Cook. 370 is the follow up to that and again it just feels really defensive. I can't help but read it as Cook is onto you and you want to figure out where you went wrong

This is my first time playing with you so I'm trying to decide if it's just a tone issue or if there's actually something here or not

Hmm I think that is like an extremely uncharitable read of those posts but I'm not sure if asking more about it is going to be useful

Unless I missed it I'd still like an answer to my previous question about why you liked the cook wagon but also thought there was scum on it

[Ausuka]

Hmm I think that is like an extremely uncharitable read of those posts but I'm not sure if asking more about it is going to be useful

Uncharitable? It's just a vibe I'm getting based on not trusting you. I feel like I'm being pretty reasonable here by considering it might just be a me thing

Unless I missed it I'd still like an answer to my previous question about why you liked the cook wagon but also thought there was scum on it

I like early wagons, I think they can give us decent info. Thinking there's scum on the Cook wagon boils down to statistics mixed with how I think scum would like to approach an early game wagon

I'm not accusing you of being a tunneler or whatever. I think taking two lines of me saying I didn't think cook's read on me made sense and saying that makes up me spending a lot of time defending myself and that gives you vibes I have a guilty conscience is uncharitable, yes - it's possible that's my biased perspective etc etc

I think the wagon explanation thing is fairly believable - the thing about scum approaching wagons in a certain way is something I don't believe myself but I know people do

[Ausuka]

I mean, it was two lines. And I am uneasy about you. I've been uneasy about you for a pretty long time, and I'm uneasy about this read.

There were five people on the wagon, and you said I was town earlier, so I find it a bit strange that you're saying that me asking about that is some sort of extended self-defense method. I didn't like how your focus on finding said scum was seemingly absent, and the decision there was one seemed arbitrary to me at the time. I mean, you were *voting* Invisibility, but you seemed thoroughly uninterested in pushing him or talking about your read there at all. I know you were v/la for a while and that's fine, but honestly at the time you said a lot more about wagon theory than your only scumread.

[Ausuka]

I mean from a certain point of view you could say that Black was indirectly defending herself by directing attention to the wagon

I mean seriously, it depends on her alignment? If she's town she probably saw you say something she thought might be useful and wanted you to come out and explain it. If she's scum she probably thought it was something town her might do and/or could help her push someone on the wagon. I'm not really taking that question as scum-indicative for black

[Ausuka]

I'm liking Ausuka's posts a little less than I was this weekend. I'm not sure what it is...I think it's the tone? For whatever reason I can't help but read her posts like they're coming from a guilty conscience

It's not like she's doing anything all that scummy. I think she defends herself a lot and seems concerned with people scum reading her, but I can't really scumread that because I do that a lot as town

I think scum are likely to approach this game in the way Ausuka has. Decent activity, obvious signs of solving, etc

I'm ok leaving this slot around for later because I think I still townread her, but I'm wary here

i don't think ausuka has been very defensive this game and i also don't think that's a scumtell for her at all

i actually kinda felt the opposite, like she felt a little... im not sure how to describe it. like there's a slight wall up, or like she's viewing things from above rather than diving in. this isn't saying anything about her quantity of content but more just the manner in which she's engaging

i think it's believable that this could be coming from other places than alignment so im not reading too much into it yet but i don't townread her in the way that i have in other games ive played with town her, where it felt really easy for me to see the thought and the process and the town energy behind the posts

so idk also wary i guess, but for different reasons

I mean I am trying to be less defensive, although I would probably be doing that as either alignment

[Ausuka]

In the last game i played with iamveryhappy he earnestly argued that giving reasons why both other players could be town in elo is a scumslip. I really do not think nonsense is scummy for him. I also didn't really get the sense he was actually mad about the candybargate thing

[Ausuka]

I didn't really get the sense from happy's posts that he had a problem with offtopic posting, but italiano 'asking for town vibes'

I mean that's reading into what italiano said too literally maybe but i wouldn't call it internally inconsistent

[Ausuka]

420 makes me think happy and Cook could be partners or happy is town

I think for now I’m voting VOTE: Cook.

Can you elaborate on your read on Cook? I could maybe get how that post could make you think cook and happy could be partners, although I'd like elaboration on that too, but how does it make Cook scum independently of happy?

[Ausuka]

retracted it, after you disproved it

again, what else would Italiano do in this situation? Seems kinda obvious that Italiano would retract the claim after it was disproven cuz otherwise he would be megadead. I don't know how it gains towncred other than being the choice that doesn't get him dead immediately and so I don't see why that was even worth mentioning

pedit: yes what Fire said

i'm just bamboozled why you would fakeclaim masons with someone who isn't even your scumpartner unless you're, say

trying to deliberately distance

but i don't think that's what's happening here

I mean, I am too, but why is your conclusion from it that it's scummy for italiano

[Ausuka]

I think invisibility is probably just town. I'm less sure about italiano - I think the reasons most people are scumreading him, like the mason claim or whatever, don't make much sense, but like he isn't super towny either

[Ausuka]

I'm bamboozled with the idea scum italiano would claim masons as a gambit with someone who had been vocally scumreading him as if he expects him to go along with it

[Ausuka]

I'm trying to ask about your read on Italiano

Like, do you think he expects invisibility to claim masons with him? After invisibility calls him scum so strongly

Is there more to the mason claim being scummy?

[Ausuka]

retracted it, after you disproved it

again, what else would Italiano do in this situation? Seems kinda obvious that Italiano would retract the claim after it was disproven cuz otherwise he would be megadead. I don't know how it gains towncred other than being the choice that doesn't get him dead immediately and so I don't see why that was even worth mentioning

pedit: yes what Fire said

i'm just bamboozled why you would fakeclaim masons with someone who isn't even your scumpartner unless you're, say

trying to deliberately distance

but i don't think that's what's happening here

I mean, I am too, but

why is your conclusion from it that it's scummy for italiano

[Ausuka]

I think most players would interpret it as a joke because no shit they are not masons

I am trying to understand why you are approaching this from the angle it was intended to be taken seriously.

[Ausuka]

Like if it makes no sense for town to do and it makes no sense for scum to do according to you how is that not NAI

[Ausuka]

happy birthday ausuka

And thanks

[Ausuka]

I think invisibility is probably just town. I'm less sure about italiano - I think the reasons most people are scumreading him, like the mason claim or whatever, don't make much sense, but like he isn't super towny either

Seems good but a bit wishy washy on Italiano. This one expecting a townread here from Ausuka, this is not it

Shrug, I'm not going to pretend to be more confident on italiano than I am. He probably is being pushed by scum if that's what you mean but scum looooove to bus d1 they do it all the time

[Ausuka]

My thoughts on him are coloured by like

In the last game i played with him he was town and got eliminated in d1 so obviously he gets pushed as town too and his most recent scumgame was an Elo Sweep so maybe i want to townread him but like instinctively a lot of his stuff this game feels more straightforward in this game vs that one where I couldn't really understand his perspective at all. Fwiw his response to my question was fine

I don't really have much interest in voting him on d1 so I'm fine with putting him in the pool of 'we can wait and see what he does on his own'

[Ausuka]

I think the cook wagon is good

I think black votes are also good but I would prefer if we got some wagons going

[Ausuka]

I totally retract the townread on hu tao btw

Rn the players I'm comfortable saying I townread are {asri tenoka, HPE, iamveryhappy, invisibility}

I want to townread t3 but it might be just 'he sides with my positions on day 1' so i'm waiting to see more from him

Italiano and SS are on the more towny side of neutral

fire and hu tao I am like ~watching~

KKFC and black fall into range

and cook is the most scummy i think

[Ausuka]

I don't think 2 votes is a wagon and the venn diagram of potential cook and black voters is close to a circle

[Ausuka]

What is Cook your roleblocker or something

[Ausuka]

Why should I leave the biggest wagon in the game on my biggest scumread??? I don't really buy that this is a genuine line of thought

[Ausuka]

The point is that cook is the scummiest player in the game and I want there to be a proper wagon there??? Literally this entire narrative is desperately trying to avoid the massive elephant in the room

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Black

Congrats you have what you want

I think you are trying really hard to look like you don't care about being voted and therefore you are towny because I really struggle to see this coming from any other mindset

[Ausuka]

I think the overarching theme with cook is that I don't really get the feeling she cares about scumhunting or wants to kill the mafia particularly.

I think probably the best example of this is the aftermath of the Cook wagon hitting e-2; obviously I've already gone over this, but for someone who was primarily looking for scum on her wagon her behaviour was odd. While it's not impossible for her to miss it I would expect someone in that situation to have seen the pretty big post that I made outlining why I was voting cook. She also included a RVS vote in there from KKFC and that feels even more bizarre. It felt like she was going through the motions of saying 'look, there is scum on my wagon, scum in these people' but wasn't really thinking it through and actually, like, scumhunting.

I get similar vibes from the push on italiano. I think it felt after the mason claim that it felt like most people were pretty against italiano for it. I think that was sort of the initial response and as people thought it through more they saw it as, like, not as big of a deal. I felt like cook was pushing italiano on it later than most people and her reasoning - bringing up the walkback especially when that was always going to be inevitable - felt off to me. When I pressed her on it, she initially seemed pretty indignant about it - even bolding 'why would TOWN do it' - and then fell back on 'idk maybe i shouldnt it's vibes'. I really do not agree with the idea that this is towny and I do not think this like, gradually dawned on Cook as the conversation progressed or whatever - this especially needs to be seen in the context of her immediately previous conversation with Invisibility. I think the push on italiano was an opportunistic one that was never thought through and I think this looks especially bad in the context of the rest of her play.

Re; her approach to me, as I said I still don't really feel like the 'i want you to be town for better scumhunting' was genuine; I don't think I displayed anything that would really make me in particular feel like a good player from Cook at the time and she doesn't treat my push like she thinks it's reasonable or understandable. It feels more like a soft buddying attempt. Similarly when she said she was getting a better vibe from me, it was immediately after I questioned italiano on his Cook vote - which like, it's possible that it was a coincidence or that improved my vibes to cook, but I think it's +scum given that it feels like it could be strategically timed to encourage me to like pivot away from her (which is like pretty common for people to do with early scumreads, i do that a lot, I just happen to think in this game cook has been scummy throughout and that hasn't really changed for me)

[Ausuka]

I'm trying to ask about your read on Italiano

Like, do you think he expects invisibility to claim masons with him? After invisibility calls him scum so strongly

Is there more to the mason claim being scummy?

respectively:
- ask about it then, or point to a place when you asked about it please
- no, no i don't
-

why in the goddamn would town fakeclaim.

if there is no logical reason for it, then there you go. that's why i scumread italiano

retracted it, after you disproved it

again, what else would Italiano do in this situation? Seems kinda obvious that Italiano would retract the claim after it was disproven cuz otherwise he would be megadead. I don't know how it gains towncred other than being the choice that doesn't get him dead immediately and so I don't see why that was even worth mentioning

pedit: yes what Fire said

i'm just bamboozled why you would fakeclaim masons with someone who isn't even your scumpartner unless you're, say

trying to deliberately distance

but i don't think that's what's happening here

I mean, I am too, but

why is your conclusion from it that it's scummy for italiano

thank you!!

I think most players would interpret it as a joke because no shit they are not masons

I am trying to understand why you are approaching this from the angle it was intended to be taken seriously.

perhaps i am bad at reading that kind of thing and it doesn't go well in terms of playing mafia

Like if it makes no sense for town to do and it makes no sense for scum to do according to you how is that not NAI

general feel on italiano??

i don't know. i should be thinking it's nai.

i actually kinda like this from cook

not necessarily in terms of like, process. bc ideally she wouldn't need so much prodding to realize that if she doesn't think it makes sense as either alignment then it's probably more on the side of nai (altho side note i disagree with the premise from ausuka. scum sometimes do things that make no sense intentionally. town have no reason to. i think that makes it slightly on the scum side of ai)

but anyway i feel like i can see this idea dawning on cook as the conversation progresses and i believe that is happening

and i don't really like how ausuka just left things be after this last post and didn't seem to acknowledge what looks to me like a pretty open display of town thought process

I don't really agree it's an 'open display of town thought process' and I'm not sure why you expect me to given the rest of your post doesn't seem like you think this is obviously town ( 'i actually kinda like this' )

I'm not really sure what to say about your point tbh except I really just don't see this idea dawning on cook as the conversation progresses; if anything I think it's rather abrupt, from her convo with invisibility and her first reply to me vs her last two replies.

I think scum 'doing things that make no sense intentionally' is like, really rare. Like unless I'm having a major brainfart, I don't really remember seeing a scum do that ever. I think sometimes, scum do things that make no sense accidentally because they don't have a town thought process, or because they're desperate. I don't think either of these apply in this scenario.

[Ausuka]

I don't care about being voted. I know I'm town. But if you think I'm town then this vote doesn't really make sense to me...

I don't think you're town, I think you asking me to vote for you was meant to look like non survivalistic -> town. Like, the approach is designed to get townread.

By the way, it's possible I'm misinterpreting this but didn't you say earlier that you do care about being voted and you're quite defensive as town? Like, "I think she defends herself a lot and seems concerned with people scum reading her, but I can't really scumread that because I do that a lot as town"

[Ausuka]

The cook ate might be towny

I went to check if she does that as scum too and holy shit she just like never rolls scum apparently

[Ausuka]

I don't feel like i'm holding anyone at gunpoint though. I have to scumread people, that is the game? Like what am i supposed to do here. Nothing is objectively scum, *anything* can be a mistake from anyone, that will go for any elimination we find in any circumstance

[Ausuka]

unless we get a watcher guilty or something

[Ausuka]

btw black why do you townread KKFC

[Ausuka]

katy, sorry

maybe i just like how much it sounds like KFC

[Ausuka]

I guess i saw happy as like pretty limbaity and his play just in general reminds me of how I used to play scum when I came to the site, like focusing on a player like happy as inconsistent and stuff like that. I'd like him to talk about like, more ppl than just happy but it's not the strongest read in the world.

I think you scumreading happy in your first game together makes me lean scum less on kkfc because I didn't have that experience personally but i've encountered players like happy as town in the past

I mean if all of you kkfc and cook are town I'm not really sure where to look

[Ausuka]

What am I going to do with hu Tao

Like she's just not doing anything towny because she's not doing anything

If cook is town I probably feel better about fire too

I'm saying that if you were town I'd have nowhere to look I'm trying to like re evaluate or whatever since apparently my play this game is like pointing guns at people

I can talk about invis later it might take a while

[Ausuka]

If cook is town I probably feel better about fire too

I'm saying that if you were town I'd have nowhere to look

Why are you suddenly approaching the game as if your top two scumreads are town? I know you say you're trying to re-evaluate but this just feels like an extreme that I wasn't really expecting

You're suspicious of me but you trust my opinion on Katy? Cook's AtE is enough to completely reverse your scumread? Something doesn't feel right

I'm thinking about a world if you're town? I'm still voting for you

[Ausuka]

I'm thinking about a world if you're town? I'm still voting for you

Ok but in a world where I'm town, why would Cook be town?

That's not necessarily the case I was just re thinking about the game in general which includes both of you

[Ausuka]

re: invisibility, I kinda just disagree with the premise that his past games feel that significantly different from this one in a way that is alignment indicative.

The most recent game he played that's completed & as town was this, viewtopic.php?sid=&f=83&t=90922&user_select%5B%5D=31411. In this game he did plenty of analysis and got killed on night one.

I also just think his play this game generally feels town. Like, his vote on italiano imo is townier than anyone else's; I think it makes sense for him in particular to suspect he might be getting buddied, because it's natural to read into interactions around yourself more, and I can follow the 'buddying' line of reasoning much more than the 'partners' or 'mason claim' line of reasoning; I think there's a town thought process there. I liked the points about cook going like 'ESRI, answer for this' feeling off, and cook's thing about italiano walking back the claim - both of those were thoughts I had independently but I don't think I shared them in the thread before invis did. Generally when she posts i'm like 'mhm yeah i think this is town posting'

[Ausuka]

I forget the ethical stuff about outing alts but once you see past the 'this one' thing I think anyone who has played with asri before knows who they are, they are a serial alter, and I think this behaviour is very much compatible with their town game

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Katykimfanclub

[Ausuka]

I'm not like going to locktown cook or black but I think i have good reasons to look elsewhere for the time being

I think KKFC coming back and like only really talking about happy again kinda solidifed my take on him, as I said I feel like it reminds me of my scum play when I was a newer player and I think the laser focus on happy is intentional at this point. I don't have a big massive case here, but I feel like he is pretty likely to be red anyway

Pedit: the link works for me

[Ausuka]

Yeah i guess that's fair and i don't want to act like i'm more confident about this than I actually am but I don't think i'm ever going to see you as town if your focus is just on happy alone

Maybe you could try and read one specific person, like italiano or someone

[Ausuka]

[Ausuka]

my mental health gets worse every time i sign up for a mafia game. i will never learn from my mistakes

[Ausuka]

my mental health gets worse every time i sign up for a mafia game. i will never learn from my mistakes

SAME. SAME.

wanna comod something later

is this talking to me or a statement of intent to comod a game

Also yes invis did get n1'd in the game i linked, why did you make me check smh

[Ausuka]

If we policy lim asri we will all be haunted by the el nino effect

[Ausuka]

my mental health gets worse every time i sign up for a mafia game. i will never learn from my mistakes

ily

<3

[Ausuka]

this close to delegating my vote to random.org (in an unprovable manner)

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Black

T3 what is your black read

[Ausuka]

this close to delegating my vote to random.org (in an unprovable manner)

You have no thoughts about any of this?

None

[Ausuka]

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=2&t=90580&user_select%5B%5D=37008

[Ausuka]

What do you think of the reactions you got?

[Ausuka]

So uh sorry if the ethics of this are meh but everyone who has ever played with him knows already so I don't think there's much point in hiding this and there's not like there's a rule against it.

I played a game, mini normal 2294, with asri tenoka who was playing on the account Comus. I was mafia in that game, and I tried to push him at times. I'm not sure what I would have done as town - I probably would have been less suspicious of him, but I think I would have still expressed that idea at points. Anyway, when I tried to push him, gimli said this;

"many words but there's an underlying passivity and like playing reactionary that doesn't fit with his town self and is clearly not how he is playing here

the complete very sure solves fit with his towngame in hms mutiny"

I think his play here matches with the description of his town meta, and also his play in that game - in a very similar manner, there's a lot of pivoting where he is like 100% sure of completely different solves and changes his reads in a snap in a way that feels inconsistent.

It's possible that he saw this and is now trying to play like he did in that game but imo I would be pretty shocked if he went from playing a pretty passive and normal towngame to perfectly replicating his towngame right away, especially when that style of scumplay seems to have like, worked out for him in the past. I also think this background just kind of invalidates the argument for scum asri in general which seems to be based around their posts not making sense.

[Ausuka]

What do you think of the reactions you got?

tbh I was mainly looking for a reaction from Black, I didn't really get much of a reaction from her. Cook's reaction felt weird tonally but that's it. Asri's reaction was interesting because she suddenly got way more assertive about her read on Black. Previously she had expressed a scumread on Black, but only when I voted Black did Asri vote Black. It seems like Asri was trying to pocket me and/or was reluctant to vote Black for fear of getting pushback.

Do you think Asri's play this game looks like a player who shies away from doing things for fear of getting pushback? Why would she feel that way about something like voting Black but not going all topsy-turvy on Italiano or whatever?

[Ausuka]

i don't mean to derail, but i'd like to approach this from the opposite direction:

who do we generally think is town

me

Tbh i'm not sure if a poe on d1 is the most effective strategy but I'd like to see what you have in mind

[Ausuka]

You are not excused

[Ausuka]

I will say that Black said she agreed with Ausuka's thought process which I think is very town of Black.

Why is that very town of black?

Also @black, i forgot to bring this up earlier but why would this game have 2 scum?

[Ausuka]

I will say that Black said she agreed with Ausuka's thought process which I think is very town of Black.

Why is that very town of black?

Also @black, i forgot to bring this up earlier but why would this game have 2 scum?

It was the most "town" reasoning for townreading someone at that point in the game that I can think of. So it leans town to me. I'm not sure if that makes sense. My main distinction was that Black says she agrees with your thought process, which is different than agreeing with your conclusion. I think that's exactly what I was sort of trying to do in my entire post which is look to see if Black's actions make sense from a thought process standpoint.

Hm, idk. I mean, unless I'm missing something here, Black says my posts are what she's thinking when she's reading through, and that seems something pretty trivial for a 'very good' player to say as scum - they don't even have to fake it, they can genuinely agree with me that it's overblown. I guess what I'm thinking is, given your high opinion of black as a player, aren't you worried you might be townreading her too easily? Or at least, weren't you worried about that earlier on in your read-through?

[Ausuka]

Yes, I am worried about that to be honest. But in my opinion someone consistently doing towny things is probably my best shot of establishing that someone is town this early outside of a game mechanic or something.

I'm more so trying to understand how you get to the point of 'consistently doing towny things' and the thing I'm talking about is something that sticks out to me because you said it was 'very town' and like I'm not sure how you reached that point, and it was towards the start of your iso- read where you wouldn't already be mentally seeing things Black does as town by default. I know you talked about Black, like, reading into my thought process, but I'm not really sure how you got to that from what Black said and what about it would be difficult to fake?

Fwiw i do think my read on you went up after your wallpost but I still want to read into this

[Ausuka]

i have found lately that with people i know well (not all i guess, but some) im actually generally better at reading them if i am more disconnected from them, like when reading from spec or something

So my observation is right that you've been kind of disconnected from here. I want to believe you that this is your way of trying to solve her, but I hope you understand that this kinda sets you up to be a likely partner if she flips scum

I'm not getting eliminated today so you can think about that later ^.^

[Ausuka]

Yes. My eyes are faster than the speed of light

[Ausuka]

Anyway mhm

VOTE: T3

[Ausuka]

Who said I wanted to engage with him

[Ausuka]

fireisstinkysir

[Ausuka]

Wasn't very keen on the hpe push being his main thing for as long as it was and when fire made 306 my reaction was "the fuck you do" although I am trying to weigh stuff like that less

I also thought 525 looked a bit cheeky

[Ausuka]

Fire interacted with cook between those two posts

[Ausuka]

At the time I felt like if cook was town I was probably being stupid and fire was right to call me out on it

In hindsight I'm less convinced that scum fire wouldn't just use that against me

[Ausuka]

Because I'm mafia and therefore I had to call it an interaction with cook. It was very important that I did that. Same reason why I read the thread before posting about an hour ago

[Ausuka]

If you really are town then him casting shade on you doesn't seem like a good reason to townread him at all

I wonder when fire's going to come in and call you scum for saying this. I can't wait

[Ausuka]

If you really are town then him casting shade on you doesn't seem like a good reason to townread him at all

I wonder when fire's going to come in and call you scum for saying this. I can't wait

why're you being all coy here

I didn't think I was being coy, I thought making the quote would make it clearer what I'm talking about. fire said I'm scum because I push people for being wrong - I don't think that's true, but whatever. Here black is explicitly trying to do that to me. I have felt fire's posting about black has been pretty generous so I am interested in what he has to say about it.

[Ausuka]

It's true that you didn't commit to the read but that was presented as a point for why I would be scum I think.

I also really don't think I've not thought about why people are scum but shrug I have a feeling you're going to keep saying that anyway and pressing the point is just going to frustrate me and not help my reads much

[Ausuka]

i don't really like the framing it as "you didn't commit to the read" tho

Shrug I mean i do feel like all your commentary on me is "ausuka is scum for x,y,z but also idk maybe shes town" - it's not really a read which is explained with a mixture of towny and scummy aspects. I don't think the way I describe the read is wrong, unless I'm brainfarting my memory here.

[Ausuka]

If black is scum here she's playing very well. I think her tunnel feels genuine and I think some of the things she says fall into 'you couldn't write this' - like, the thing about 'did you really read all those posts in a minute' felt like she's just viewing everything I do through a scum lens. I think mafia is likely to have more awareness about what they're doing and scum!black would do, like, more of what she was doing earlier, focusing on looking Reasonable and Just Asking Questions and being like "idk I mean it's just a theory" right now. I was instinctively skeptical of how she went from "this doesn't track because you said fire was interacting to cook" to "actually you're scum cos your read sucks" so easily but I think that kind of thing is something town can easily do if they think they're like really onto something. I think pre-flipping me with fire is the kind of thing I see from town with genuine conviction more often. Originally I stopped voting her because of the "I WONT BE ELIMINATED TODAY" show she made but I think she actually is probably just town now. If I'm wrong oops that's going to feel bad.

I'm also slightly less suspicious of fire now I guess but he could still be scum shrug? If I'm being honest my read on him was definitely at least a bit based on me and how he felt like he was scumreading me but not saying it but I guess "that doesn't mean there's nothing towny about you in an objective sense tho there's just not a lot so far that exceeds the bar that i mentally have for your posting" is a viable explanation for what he has been doing. I'm still not sure about the HPE thing, because honestly at one point I have felt it's hypocritical how he tears into my cook read but HPE is his top scumread for the longest time because something it said kind of contradicted a game a long time ago except not really because the '4 hours' thing was a big part of HPE's reaction. But like, if he was scum and aware he was pushing HPE for stuff like this I think he's maybe actually less likely to be so direct about the "you need ACTUAL EVIDENCE your scumread is actual scum noob" thing.

I probably need to reconsider italiano. I saw a lot of reasons why he was scum where I was like "what no", like claiming the mason or him being social and gifposting or whatever, but like that doesn't *actually make him town* and there's not much that stood out to me as town indicative. I'm still not really sure about kkfc, but like everyone thinks he's town now so shrug he can keep going and we can see what he does on his own and evaluate him later. I stopped scumreading cook when she started reminding me of my first game with marcistar, but she doesn't have any scum games to reference so shrug, game is hard.

I think hu tao and t3 are probably the scummiest players but there's not really a Good Case That People Will Agree With And Think 'Mmm That Is Some Towny Shit' that i can make on either of them. I think hu tao is probably frozen and t3's read on asri feels bad and also I don't think anything he's done all game is actually towny, including the black vote. I am aware neither of these reads are a lot.

Something_Smart is a player in this game

[Ausuka]

Also in case it wasn't clear, the 'idk where to look' thing wasn't 'i don't know who could possibly be scum' - like everyone could be it's d1 lol. it was 'i don't know who to push' and i didn't want to push fireisredsir sue me

[Ausuka]

3 months ago I was an entire year younger. Basically ancient

[Ausuka]

I felt like you were being fake? I guess from the start I thought you probably wouldn't push me outright because I often push back when people do that and I don't think I usually get eliminated that easily, but that wasn't really at the forefront of my mind at the time

[Ausuka]

Ok I mean sure but like

1) there's a reason i wasn't like 'fire is my top scumread' I didn't act like it's some sort of bulletproof red flag or whatever.

2) I mean your stated read on me was null not 'scumread me'

I don't really know what to tell you. It felt... not genuine? Off? Vibe check?

[Ausuka]

curious take

[Ausuka]

I think in broad strokes S_S's playstyle here is like... the same basically as every other game he plays

I think he hasn't rolled scum in a while but the last scumgame I saw was like, uh, one and a half years ago I think? And it seemed like he posted more than he usually does. Which might just mean he had more free time but I don't think lack of content and a bunch of one-liners is necessarily uncommon from SS, iirc he especially tends to be like this on day 1.

That being said there's no issue with looking into the specifics of his reads obviously

I might not be the best person to ask this cos it might sound like an ego thing but @SS, in the game I think you're referring to I had 775 posts and had to chain 4 miselims on my own in a game with two masons and a vig still alive. I think i was also pretty townread when you were around. Why is it exactly that you think I wouldn't be able to make sense as scum?

[Ausuka]

I might not be the best person to ask this cos it might sound like an ego thing but @SS, in the game I think you're referring to I had 775 posts and had to chain 4 miselims on my own in a game with two masons and a vig still alive. I think i was also pretty townread when you were around. Why is it exactly that you think I wouldn't be able to make sense as scum?

Anyone can make sense as scum. Not making sense is a lot harder, and that's why you did well in that game. If someone appears competent and logical, and then they chain 4 mislims, that's gonna raise some eyebrows. My understanding of how you played that game (admittedly limited because I died early) is that you deliberately made yourself look like you weren't playing a good game, so people wouldn't sus you for having bad reads.

And I don't think you're doing that here.

I wouldn't have described my play that game this way but I guess I can believe you believe it given you were around specifically towards the end of d2 and this kind of implies you didn't read the rest of the game?

[Ausuka]

I think in broad strokes S_S's playstyle here is like... the same basically as every other game he plays

I think he hasn't rolled scum in a while but the last scumgame I saw was like, uh, one and a half years ago I think? And it seemed like he posted more than he usually does. Which might just mean he had more free time but I don't think lack of content and a bunch of one-liners is necessarily uncommon from SS, iirc he especially tends to be like this on day 1.

That being said there's no issue with looking into the specifics of his reads obviously

I might not be the best person to ask this cos it might sound like an ego thing but @SS, in the game I think you're referring to I had 775 posts and had to chain 4 miselims on my own in a game with two masons and a vig still alive. I think i was also pretty townread when you were around. Why is it exactly that you think I wouldn't be able to make sense as scum?

Just curious, how much weight do you put into meta arguments? I've noticed you've brought up meta quite a bit this game

Generally quite a lot? It's far from infallible and obviously people can and do emulate their 'town meta' but I find looking into the context of how people have played past games can be very helpful, especially in the context of finding out what *isn't* alignment indicative

[Ausuka]

I think I would have 'let town tear each other apart' in mini 2294 if that was an option - I think if anything it's a better and more reliable way to play scum. I made mistakes in mini 2294 and I had to be proactive because of it. In general i would play in whatever way the situation calls for, but I don't think there's anything inherently superior or inferior about different ways to play - being proactive is great if it means you win more often, but I don't think that it makes for a good scum game in itself.

[Ausuka]

Maybe this has gotten into a bit of a tangent and it would probably be better suited for discord or something. Who knows tho maybe it'll help you read me

[Ausuka]

so true

[Ausuka]

I only said that because you really can't use townmeta/scummeta on me
reasons are below
1. I haven't rolled scum yet
2. You don't even know my normal meta
3. no trolling is not my normal meta, it just comes together as a deal like you know the sauces from the chicken mcnuggets
4. I can change meta by reading through shit ppl like snekwaza said
5. just hunt normally

This is a scumslip

[Ausuka]

I will kill your partners first

[Ausuka]

Be very scared, letter boy

[Ausuka]

ausuka crumbed vanilla... and then retracts it?

curious take

black

should shut up and stop pushing me, you're going to get reread really closely to make sure that i'm not missing something

curious take

t3

confuses me

curious take?

[Ausuka]

to be clear the vanilla ice cream thing wasn't a soft. i was actually just eating vanilla ice cream. like, in real life. it tastes good

[Ausuka]

SS can lurk his way to D2 I guess

I think we should go here

VOTE: Cook

i disagree, i'm sure i'll be much more interesting tomorrow

Personally I'm fine taking this at face value even though it is ++scum for her to say it, and we can lim her D2 if we don't like it

I don't think town win rate goes up much from limming scum day 1 anyway

[Ausuka]

I think T3 feels the least sincere out of any player in the game

[Ausuka]

I mean that's not wrong

[Ausuka]

SS can lurk his way to D2 I guess

I think we should go here

VOTE: Cook

i disagree, i'm sure i'll be much more interesting tomorrow

Personally I'm fine taking this at face value even though it is ++scum for her to say it, and we can lim her D2 if we don't like it

I don't think town win rate goes up much from limming scum day 1 anyway

I don't really like this. If you think this statement is scummy in like a survival tactic way, I'm not sure why you wouldn't go here. You thought Cook was reasonably scummy earlier in the game too. I think you adjusted that read a little after the AtE but I don't think I remember Cook being in your recent "this is how I feel about everyone post". Do you really think the T3 slot is more likely to flip scum? Do you think T3 is a better lim than Cook?

As far as the win rate I think I've heard that before, but that should never shy anyone away from voting a scumread

I mean she's obviously softing some sort of powerful role

[Ausuka]

That's +scum because it's useful for scum her to do so and what she said earlier made it sound like she thought she might actually get eliminated - there isn't any statement like this early in the game

On the other hand if we leave her for D2 we possibly get utility out of the role and it's possible for us to confirm if she does happen to be town. I won't tell you what to do but my instinct is to be against killing her today

[Ausuka]

k

[Ausuka]

SS can lurk his way to D2 I guess

I think we should go here

VOTE: Cook

i disagree, i'm sure i'll be much more interesting tomorrow

Personally I'm fine taking this at face value even though it is ++scum for her to say it, and we can lim her D2 if we don't like it

I don't think town win rate goes up much from limming scum day 1 anyway

No one asked me why I wasn't voting cook before I said this, so I think it pretty clearly wasn't to defend myself

I'm saying that right here because it seems like the right thing to do given that I don't trust the claim at all but also don't want to kill her today. I am pretty sure there's no way all the mafia don't see that but also like, if cook is town and gets killed by mafia, great, I don't see that as a bad outcome

[Ausuka]

It doesn't apply to T3 because to my knowledge T3 has not done like... Any of the things I am talking about in regards to cook

[Ausuka]

I went through cook's iso again and I don't see the soft

My only thought is the "mafia know something about me" thing, but I assumed that was referring to what she said later about flailing in response to pressure because I don't know how mafia would know her role so soon on d1

[Ausuka]

ausuka not voting me when scumreading me is kinda a slip
kk
you sr someone you vote them
also I don't have scumpartners ausuka haha you wrong

This post, too, is a scumslip

[Ausuka]

what's the logic on the t3 wagon again

I can't really make a case but like - he doesn't feel genuine to me and I don't believe his read on asri or me or SS. It all just feels, like, too underdeveloped and convenient. Especially the read on asri which was during the whole "POLICY LIM ASRI" movement, it just felt deeply wrong

[Ausuka]

At this point i'm probably just waiting for cook to claim lole

[Ausuka]

how

The whole scumslip thing was a joke about our last game, you implied I was stupid so I thought I'd bite back a little

You are probably town this game although that's not a lock

[Ausuka]

Ok bestie im not going to lie that sounds like a mafia role

[Ausuka]

Ok but also rolecop kind of sucks as a town role anyways

VOTE: cook

[Ausuka]

That's e1 on cook btw

[Ausuka]

There are almost always going to be 3 mafia in a game like this

[Ausuka]

Is rolecop actually a powerful role, though

I really don't think it is

1-shot bp is a bit stronger but mostly the role just seems *weird* rather than overpowered

[Ausuka]

Koba and isis would probably pass something a bit more scumsided than what I'd pass, but I don't think they would view rolecop that way

[Ausuka]

Fwiw if there is actually a vig I think the chances of cook actually flipping scum are much higher because '1 shot bulletproof rolecop' probably isn't a fake claim because it's too weird for most people to think of without much apparent benefit to claiming it.

Unfortunately we can't just ask vig to cook cook because she might be a mafia bp shrug

I will maybe think about it because it's definitely possible we have roles like ninja but if we do making the rolecop bp just feels like a strange design choice. I guess it does work if mafia have both strongman and ninja tho. My instinct was not to believe the claim because as a rolecop 'I'm sure i will be more interesting tomorrow' doesn't feel like it would fit because you're likely to just get a vanilla result

[Ausuka]

I think getting close to a lim this near to the deadline is kinda necessary, regardless of if ppl are inactive

[Ausuka]

I am actually sort of conflicted by this because I feel like cook can be sorted by the presence of a vig shot or not. Like if there's no vig I can't see cook being a mafia bp rolecop and it's also hard to imagine her not being a bp rolecop because the claim is so weird & presumably the 'they know something about me' thing came from that angle

Intuitively it's possible she could exist with some kind of ninja + strongman combo but it does feel weird that if a watcher were to target BP rolecop, that has the potential to be kinda broken under a lot of circumstances, unless mafia have specific tools to counter it? And the reviewers for this one are koba and isis who I think tend to favour scum more and so it's like p difficult for me to

VOTE: t3 provisionally but i might revote idk this is a difficult situation

[Ausuka]

Also design-wise even if town 1-shot bp rolecop can be balanced how would you even get to the idea of it instead of something more normal? Like you'd start with

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

3x Mafia Goon

Then you have to give the Rolecop a scummy role to find so maybe Roleblocker or Ninja

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

So to make the Ninja do stuff we'd then add a Watcher or Tracker

Town Rolecop

Town Tracker

8x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

From here I don't see the logical progression to making the Rolecop 1-shot BP. There's no role or modifier there that makes me go "Oh yeah then make the rolecop 1-shot BP to make the setup make sense"

-Nameless

I mean you would need a strongman I think

Town Watcher
Town Backup Watcher
Town 1-shot Bulletproof Rolecop
Town Indecisive Doctor

Mafia 2-shot Ninja
Mafia 2-shot Strongman
Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

I imagine you would just add roles that the strongman would be useful against and then go "lol let's make the rolecop bp"

I guess this is all just speculation

[Ausuka]

I agree what cook has been saying does not really make sense and she might be scum here shrug. If a vig does exist we should probably lim her on d2.

[Ausuka]

I mean, it's just an example. I'm not saying the setup has to be exactly that, I'm saying it's possible for the role to exist in a setup built around a town rolecop. I think the possibility cook is town and we can get utility is more important than a mafia rolecop shot which is like, not great for us but ultimately I don't think it's that big of a deal

[Ausuka]

Maybe like 50/50? She's certainly suspicious and I think is considerably >rand scum but it's hard to be sure about anything on d1 and people who don't make sense flip town sometimes

[Ausuka]

Unfortunately we can't just ask vig to cook cook because she might be a mafia bp shrug

Umm vig can’t kill bulletproof regardless of alignment right so how does “we can’t ask vig to kill cook because she might be a mafia bp” make sense, unless you misspoke.

If there's a vig cook is probably scum, so it would be nice and simple if they could just shoot her, but they can't because bulletproof.

I'm curious what you're getting at here. Like, is there some kind of scum motivation to phrasing things this way?

[Ausuka]

Also, where has fire gone? He's been so active all this time

[Ausuka]

Well personally I'd vote cook before happy so we might be at an impasse here

[Ausuka]

VOTE: italiano

[Ausuka]

I think we're safe to let Cook live to get a night result from her

literally doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing

I think at this point what black is doing is beyond the pale of what i can excuse as coming from town and if you lim me today I would encourage you to at least look at both her and t3 d2. Obviously cook also needs to stay in consideration

I'm most of the way to being eliminated and deadline is p close and I'm prob going to leave in a bit so, I'm backup watcher

[Ausuka]

Italiano's vote on me is also really bad and his posts in general recently have been kinda sucky but it seems like you guys are on that

Fire is kinda ??? but I think definitely bears at least a closer look than what he's got so far

Unfortunately i still think flower slot is prob town, not really that sus of KKFC anymore, happy, asri and invis are probably town

[Ausuka]

Re the role discussion

Rolecop is a role which in isolation is scum most of the time and I think the reaction to the 1 shot bp rolecop claim being 'it's scummy' is natural, it was also my initial reaction. There *probably* is a main watcher, although I could also just be a named townie and that's possible, which does kinda seem like a point against the claim; because if a watcher targets the bp rolecop the mafia is kinda fucked. I think this could be worked around with mafia power and like, the existence of a watcher AND a backup watcher means mafia would like, basically have to have a ninja in which case a town rolecop existing does seem more likely? It's quite complicated but shrug

[Ausuka]

Hewwo I am here now kind of

I can answer questions if people have them

I claimed backup watcher because I had happy + black + flower + italiano + Cook was definitely going to vote me based on prior behaviour + fire implied he was going to do it, and it was p close to deadline

[Ausuka]

if these are all 3 town PRs then they are actually only effectively 2 PRs bc then ausuka is just a named townie (unless the non-backup watcher is mafia)

so i think there's almost no way all 3 are town

I'm not sure where this conclusion comes from

If I'm a named townie why can't there be an on neapolitan and the 1 shot bp rolecop

[Ausuka]

if these are all 3 town PRs then they are actually only effectively 2 PRs bc then ausuka is just a named townie (unless the non-backup watcher is mafia)

so i think there's almost no way all 3 are town

I thought backup Watcher implied someone else was Watcher.

It does but sometimes mods put wifom roles in games

It seems more likely there is a watcher but it's also possible there isn't one

Typically a fake backup is something weird like Backup Vig which would be a rolecop inno and gunsmith guilty, I'm not really sure what the point of backup Watcher is if there's no watcher

[Ausuka]

I also really struggle to understand the perspective there is a mafia backup watcher and a town watcher

That just sounds really swingy to have it so if a town or dies mafia just get an extra pr

Pedit: I mean probably not but shrug I am assuming others are likely to exist

[Ausuka]

Not sure what to say beyond what I've already said - I'm sure there is a chance people will decide to kill me because my role isn't actively useful and like whatever this game isn't fun anyway.

I would advise taking another look at black D2, particularly with her wall, and ask yourselves what the motives are - Like does she genuinely believe all this? She goes from thinking I might be town to suddenly being back in the tunnel at full speed with no apparent explanation? Is she really confident enough to say things like "when ausuka flips scum?"

Currently I see it through the lens that she is repeating the behaviour she saw as getting her townread - which means tunnelling in a rather ??? way and coming up with stretchy preflip theories about me.

[Ausuka]

I think Italiano like might be scum lol

I guess if he is town I can understand having the inno on d2 would be nice

I think one of the bigger issues with him right now is how he softs VT and claims neapolitan like right after I claim backup watcher? Like ON neapolitan seems Towny but it can also just function as a mafia vanilla cop, that can be a mafia role and I am kind of thinking that like maybe if cook is town he's worried about a rolecop / he could also be worried about being the most popular suspect without a PR claim so decides to just make it.

I'm also not really a fan of his positioning around me and how convenient it appears to be but shrug I'm biased you can all look at that for yourselves and decide what you think.

[Ausuka]

Scum probably have some sort of way to counter Cook's role if town, I don't think this setup would be passed without one and especially not by isis and koba

However I doubt mafia actually really want to nightkill her and it seems pretty likely they would want to eliminate her today if town so shrug I guess the idea of where to look could be fine

Like I think mafia probably have the room to be flexible but if they can and cook is town they probably want or at least wanted to kill cook today

[Ausuka]

hu tao please answer 1317

or if you continue to ignore it, everyone else please notice how it makes no sense that hu tao would become convinced that cook is scum off a post talking about how SS scum could imply cook scum based on associations

there's nothing about cook individually

im pretty sure hu tao just saw a long post from someone scumreading cook, skimmed it and saw it said "cook" a lot, and was like "ok sure thats probably a convincing case"

I have noticed this and Hu Tao has gone down in my estimation accordingly

Not that it matters cos I'll probably be dead in 12 hours

[Ausuka]

This post starts off by Ausuka saying "I wanted to give Cook a chance to answer my questions first but it doesn't seem like she's interested in doing that". This is a misrepresentation of what happened in 121 and 135 above. After Ausuka voted for Cook in 121, Ausuka voted for Cook before Cook ever posted, 13 minutes later. Here she's claiming she joined the wagon because Cook never responded to her, and this is incorrect.

ngl 1584 and 1589 felt kinda townie to me like genuine frustration and I think this point especially from Black (and also Black's post in general) is good VOTE: Ausuka

I never claimed I joined the wagon because cook didn't answer my questions. I waited until cook answered my questions to explain what I was thinking so I could evaluate first if necessary

Black's post is just a fire hood of falsehoods which I can't really go through all of them because it takes a lot less time for her to make stuff up Vs me to refute it and afterwards she would just be like "no lol" and then everyone would be like "oh tru ausuka is good as scum so we have to completely disregard all reasons to townread her but believe the most surface level reasons to scumread her for some reason"

[Ausuka]

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

[Ausuka]

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setup

-Nameless

It doesn't make sense if that's the only scum pr but why would that be the case

[Ausuka]

Not really? Scum just need a gated strongman and it's fine

The problem with the BP rolecop isn't that it's inherently broken, it's not especially if scum have roles like neapolitan which really aren't scum indicative

The problem is that having a BP investigation role is like pretty fundamentally unfun without mafia counterplay and I doubt it gets passed

[Ausuka]

That being said cook might still be scum here so like come to your own conclusions etc. I would be significantly more skeptical of her if two people die tonight as I have said.

[Ausuka]

I mean it's kind of swingy but if the strongman dies the usefulness of the rolecop is greatly diminished?

I would kill cook before me obvs

[Ausuka]

I guess it could be out of place for mafia to have like a ninja and a strongman and an odd night neapolitan. That would be like the three dragons meme

That being said this feels like slightly too much speculation to go on for now with 0 flips and it's still not clear if I'm a named townie or actual backup

[Ausuka]

Et tu flower

[Ausuka]

T3 / Hu Tao should be provisional D2 targets

Look at black with cold hard eyes and don't assume her posts are good because she posts a lot of words

You know what I think of italiano and cook, they could both be town but is probably more likely there's a scum there. Probably not both tho

Sayonara

[Ausuka]

I actually think on my wagon only black has actually tried to like case me as scum and the rest are just sheeping her for some reason / survival votes

[Ausuka]

Maybe it was a throw not to individually write up a wall with counters to every point she made but a lot of it was just like rehashes of conversations we already had or speculating if I should be preflipped with cook I didn't really expect people to find it so convincing suddenly

[Ausuka]

T3 / Hu Tao should be provisional D2 targets

Look at black with cold hard eyes and don't assume her posts are good because she posts a lot of words

You know what I think of italiano and cook, they could both be town but is probably more likely there's a scum there. Probably not both tho

Sayonara

Who would you flash wagon rn if you had the choice

Hu Tao probably? T3 has an immunity idol

[Ausuka]

I actually think on my wagon only black has actually tried to like case me as scum and the rest are just sheeping her for some reason / survival votes

Any thoughts about how the Cook wagon dissipated and if there's scum there that contributed to that on wagon/on the sidelines?

-A

I tend not to be a wagonomics person - most things tend to be town driven by necessity cos there aren't that many mafia and if cook is mafia I doubt they went all in trying to save her

If you mean my wagon, I would say hu tao is the vote I would want you to look at the most

I concede I could have been wrong about invis being town but meh

VOTE: hutao

[Ausuka]

What's the Hu Tao case?

-A

They kinda seem like a frozen wolf. Fire made a good point earlier about how they responded to a post which like... Doesn't really case cook, just analyses if she might be scum with SS, and then is like "yes you have convinced me Cook is scum here." In general they seem to do this a lot, for example instead of writing out their thoughts on the gamestate they just quoted invis to be like "yes this is where I'm at"

Their main original thing has been voting fire in response to fire calling them scum which is pretty meh

[Ausuka]

Also if you want me to look for scum on my wagon, there you are, their vote on me sucked

[Ausuka]

I should be around before deadline and i'm willing to vote whoever to make sure something goes through

[Ausuka]

Oh no I meant to say I really want a no lim to happen I love eliminating nobody and putting ourselves on evens and at a disadvantage for no reason

[Ausuka]

i lived bitches

[Ausuka]

We have less than three hours left, is now really the time for the Eiralox Show?

Are people willing to vote hu tao over no elim or not?

[Ausuka]

We have less than three hours left, is now really the time for the Eiralox Show?

Are people willing to vote hu tao over no elim or not?

could scum try to be stalling for a nolim

absolutely