Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: italiano

[Ausuka]

I think Italiano like might be scum lol

I guess if he is town I can understand having the inno on d2 would be nice

I think one of the bigger issues with him right now is how he softs VT and claims neapolitan like right after I claim backup watcher? Like ON neapolitan seems Towny but it can also just function as a mafia vanilla cop, that can be a mafia role and I am kind of thinking that like maybe if cook is town he's worried about a rolecop / he could also be worried about being the most popular suspect without a PR claim so decides to just make it.

I'm also not really a fan of his positioning around me and how convenient it appears to be but shrug I'm biased you can all look at that for yourselves and decide what you think.

[Black]

i am also kinda confused about why black says she is willing to trust flower here

flower feels like they're twisting mech for agenda purposes to me

idk how limming cook here makes the most sense ever mechanically, even if you scumread her

I've played with flower a lot and they're mech opinions are usually on point. I prefer an Ausuka lim over IVD or Cook but at the time it felt like the Ausuka wagon wasn't going to get enough support. If I have to choose between Cook and IVD then I'm willing to trust Flower when they say Cook is mechanically more likely to be scum

[fireisredsir]

hu tao please answer 1317

or if you continue to ignore it, everyone else please notice how it makes no sense that hu tao would become convinced that cook is scum off a post talking about how SS scum could imply cook scum based on associations

there's nothing about cook individually

im pretty sure hu tao just saw a long post from someone scumreading cook, skimmed it and saw it said "cook" a lot, and was like "ok sure thats probably a convincing case"

[fireisredsir]

i am also kinda confused about why black says she is willing to trust flower here

flower feels like they're twisting mech for agenda purposes to me

idk how limming cook here makes the most sense ever mechanically, even if you scumread her

I've played with flower a lot and they're mech opinions are usually on point. I prefer an Ausuka lim over IVD or Cook but at the time it felt like the Ausuka wagon wasn't going to get enough support. If I have to choose between Cook and IVD then I'm willing to trust Flower when they say Cook is mechanically more likely to be scum

the question was more, why are you not considering that flower could be scum who is using mech discussion to push advantageous things?

[Black]

I would advise taking another look at black D2, particularly with her wall, and ask yourselves what the motives are - Like does she genuinely believe all this? She goes from thinking I might be town to suddenly being back in the tunnel at full speed with no apparent explanation? Is she really confident enough to say things like "when ausuka flips scum?"

Shrug. I'll admit I may be a little tunneled but I do believe what I'm saying. There's nothing weird about thinking you might be town when you're doing stuff that makes you look town. I'm choosing to believe my gut here

[Black]

the question was more, why are you not considering that flower could be scum who is using mech discussion to push advantageous things?

I am

[Black]

I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim

[fireisredsir]

it was just weird that none of that seemed visible in your posts, it was all "ok ill trust you" and then even when i brought it up now your first response seemed to be thinking only "is flower good enough at mech to be worth trusting their opinions?" and not "is flower an alignment that i can trust?"

just doesn't really feel like you were considering the possibility

[Black]

Well I was considering it but I don't think we should flashwagon Flower or Hu Tao, as much as I would be down. It's close to the deadline and we already have 3 claims

I wasn't all that particularly suspicious of HPE so I'm not sure what you were expecting from me here

[fireisredsir]

I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim

like if you genuinely had this thought prior to just now

then how does it follow that flower is good at mech

if scum really want to elim cook if she's town. and you were thinking about that. then doesn't that mean, without taking a read of cook into account, the lim is bad for town? and so it would be bad mechanically? and so the option that flower is pushing for may not actually be ideal?

[Ausuka]

Scum probably have some sort of way to counter Cook's role if town, I don't think this setup would be passed without one and especially not by isis and koba

However I doubt mafia actually really want to nightkill her and it seems pretty likely they would want to eliminate her today if town so shrug I guess the idea of where to look could be fine

Like I think mafia probably have the room to be flexible but if they can and cook is town they probably want or at least wanted to kill cook today

[Ausuka]

hu tao please answer 1317

or if you continue to ignore it, everyone else please notice how it makes no sense that hu tao would become convinced that cook is scum off a post talking about how SS scum could imply cook scum based on associations

there's nothing about cook individually

im pretty sure hu tao just saw a long post from someone scumreading cook, skimmed it and saw it said "cook" a lot, and was like "ok sure thats probably a convincing case"

I have noticed this and Hu Tao has gone down in my estimation accordingly

Not that it matters cos I'll probably be dead in 12 hours

[fireisredsir]

Well I was considering it but I don't think we should flashwagon Flower or Hu Tao, as much as I would be down. It's close to the deadline and we already have 3 claims

I wasn't all that particularly suspicious of HPE so I'm not sure what you were expecting from me here

thats a false dichotomy, the alternative isn't flashwagon flower or hu tao

im questioning why you were willing to allow yourself to be convinced by flower so easily, and why none of the doubt that you're now saying that you had was evident in your posts you made at the time

the visible result of not trusting flower wouldn't be wagoning them, it would be not being so willing to trust them and be okay with limming cook

[Black]

I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim

like if you genuinely had this thought prior to just now

then how does it follow that flower is good at mech

if scum really want to elim cook if she's town. and you were thinking about that. then doesn't that mean, without taking a read of cook into account, the lim is bad for town? and so it would be bad mechanically? and so the option that flower is pushing for may not actually be ideal?

I thought about the Cook lim not being ideal, that's part of the reason I've been pushing Ausuka. That doesn't mean I don't still think Cook is lying scum. Me willing to trust Flower is just a result of them being very confident here from a mech POV plus me being really bad at mech

The thought crossed my mind that Flower could be scum pushing a town Cook but I didn't mention it because I'm not going to push Flower rn. I'd much rather push Ausuka

[fireisredsir]

thats actually just such a weird post

"as much as i would be down"???

since when

[Black]

Well I was considering it but I don't think we should flashwagon Flower or Hu Tao, as much as I would be down. It's close to the deadline and we already have 3 claims

I wasn't all that particularly suspicious of HPE so I'm not sure what you were expecting from me here

thats a false dichotomy, the alternative isn't flashwagon flower or hu tao

im questioning why you were willing to allow yourself to be convinced by flower so easily, and why none of the doubt that you're now saying that you had was evident in your posts you made at the time

the visible result of not trusting flower wouldn't be wagoning them, it would be not being so willing to trust them and be okay with limming cook

When it comes to mech reasoning I'm usually willing to fold over and just sheep someone that knows what they're talking about. I think it's visible that I didn't fully trust him since I never swapped to Cook and I continued to push for an Ausuka lim

[Black]

thats actually just such a weird post

"as much as i would be down"???

since when

I think they are posturing around this deadline in a way that would be pretty scummy if Cook is town

[Cook]

yeah i really don't like flower in this game

really really really don't like flower

but that's not the focus of today. that should be the focus of a vig shot

[Black]

Fire's focus on something as insignificant as me trusting Flower or not feels like a fabricated distraction from the Ausuka wagon. The two of them showed up to casually nudge the IVD wagon as soon as the Ausuka wagon gained speed

Stay the course, folks. Don't be distracted

[fireisredsir]

btw since I've seen basically nothing from T3 what's the case there? I find it pretty sus that Invis and Ausuka both think Cook's gigascum and then vote the biggest counterwagon instead just cause they want Rolecop results

-A

more so from the stuff Fire said about Cook makes her townie enough to vote someone else

confused by this

you were initially compelled by it (1305) but then pretty soon after said "could still vote cook the post wasn't that townie lol" (1315) and then did vote cook again

but this is giving an explanation for why you unvoted the second time, which i don't think had anything to do with what i said, since you had already decided that wasn't enough to keep your vote off cook

the second unvote seems like it was inspired by what asri said around 1485

idk i guess this isn't that scummy bc i think the vote switch still was fairly supported but it is kinda weird to lose track of your own progression and thoughts like this

[fireisredsir]

Fire's focus on something as insignificant as me trusting Flower or not feels like a fabricated distraction from the Ausuka wagon. The two of them showed up to casually nudge the IVD wagon as soon as the Ausuka wagon gained speed

Stay the course, folks. Don't be distracted

i am rereading the things i missed and that stood out so i mentioned it, and your response was suspicious to me

if it's distracting then it's equally distracting from the italiano wagon, which is the one i want, so idk what purpose you think that would serve

there's more than one scum

[Cook]

Fire's focus on something as insignificant as me trusting Flower or not feels like a fabricated distraction from the Ausuka wagon. The two of them showed up to casually nudge the IVD wagon as soon as the Ausuka wagon gained speed

Stay the course, folks. Don't be distracted

not gonna move

but what if ausuka flips green

do you go next or something

[fireisredsir]

ok reading black's 1536

i think overall it doesn't feel very agenda-pushing to me, it does feel like she went into it trying to prove that cook and ausuka are partners, and is looking for everything that supports that, but over time there's things that kinda start to make that feel less likely and you can see the thought process evolve. i agree with most of the places where she starts to step back and think "hmm maybe they aren't paired", so it does feel p natural

there's a few points that are like, ausuka didn't point this one specific thing out, which she should have if she's scumreading/townreading this person, and i find those points p unconvincing personally. i do that too, and i think it's kind of an unreasonable standard to hold people to. it's not even good play to point out every little thing bc at a certain point it just becomes noise

there's other points that are fine, i do agree that some of the ways that ausuka has approached things has felt off, especially around cook

as a whole i don't find it that convincing. which isn't to say i townread ausuka, but these points don't change my read much

i do still find the ausuka vote on italiano there to be pretty sketchy and that does make me a little nervous idk

[Invisibility]

btw since I've seen basically nothing from T3 what's the case there? I find it pretty sus that Invis and Ausuka both think Cook's gigascum and then vote the biggest counterwagon instead just cause they want Rolecop results

-A

more so from the stuff Fire said about Cook makes her townie enough to vote someone else

confused by this

you were initially compelled by it (1305) but then pretty soon after said "could still vote cook the post wasn't that townie lol" (1315) and then did vote cook again

but this is giving an explanation for why you unvoted the second time, which i don't think had anything to do with what i said, since you had already decided that wasn't enough to keep your vote off cook

the second unvote seems like it was inspired by what asri said around 1485

idk i guess this isn't that scummy bc i think the vote switch still was fairly supported but it is kinda weird to lose track of your own progression and thoughts like this

no I kept track I just worded it poorly lol. I meant like, I saw more town possibility in Cook than in T3. It was definitely inspired by what Asri said lol