hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[Lukewarm]

I have arrived

Hey Marci, want to break down the game for me?

[Lukewarm]

Save The Dragons (2):

MathBlade, MalcolmTucker

Rude

[Lukewarm]

Sorry, my roommate was in a car accident this morning. Might be a bit before I actually get caught up.

I'm a VT

[Lukewarm]

I have arrived

Hey Marci, want to break down the game for me?

People think the game is solved wooo (B

What's the solve?

You worded this as "people" think that, do you also think it is solved

[Lukewarm]

Since Titus isn’t saying her check, I would say NM let’s do
If BCG flips scum StD
If BGC flips town then Marci or Std or Titus your choice

Just let me know which before EoD

So your solve is BCG+me +1

or

Marci+Titus+Me

If so, your solve is wrong. But also, if I am in both solves, why are you advocating for BGC to go first instead of aiming for me today

[Lukewarm]

I was asking Math, because it was his solve.

Just read back a page and saw he is sheeping NM, who is apparently a vig who shot pooky?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: StD

Also you are aiming for me lol

[Lukewarm]

So we have two claimed protectives in a game with a vig, so you (math) think one of them is scum?

[Lukewarm]

I think you misread something I said Titus, but sure.

[Lukewarm]

I'm looking for the claims but struggling to find chungus

Found marcis tho

even night combined doctor tracker,

[Lukewarm]

I found it in a math blade post

Loyal bg

my results useless

but yes u did visit pooky

So the track result that marci is claiming is that chungus visited pooky the night that pooky died?

[Lukewarm]

my results useless

but yes u did visit pooky

Or is this on NM?

[Lukewarm]

I'm reading things out of order on my phone and struggling to figure it out

Marci, who did you track?

[Lukewarm]

I did visit pooky.

i think you fail to connect the dots of frogster's flip

Did he show up as a protective on your vouyer result?

If yes, isn't he clear?

If no, isn't he guilty?

[Lukewarm]

Wait, if he is loyal does he visit and his action fail? Or does he never visit?

[Lukewarm]

Asking mod

[Lukewarm]

I am a VT, so I don't have e shots.

I replaced std not chungus

[Lukewarm]

I am a VT, so I don't have e shots.

I replaced std not chungus

math seems to think 54667776567 invests can co exist but 2 protectives cant
i think is why he has poe of either me or chungus

but i tr xhungus T_T i dont think they were playing me like a violin at all..

Can someone do a claims list? How many invest do we actually have claimed?

[Lukewarm]

you also said furtives role makes sense for scum to have but look where that wound u up

It absolutely did. It was still the right play to elim furtive because of that and lying. It’s not like I was alone in saying it either. Given the same facts I’d do it again too.

and you dont pause to think

furtives role makes sense as scum yet hes town
so maybe the same thing applies to others?

geez for someone who keeps trying to take mechanical lead you sure are shit at it

so... why use mechanics if ur so bad at it? u should try focusing on reading ppl for what they've done I think ull have higher chances of succeeding then

I kinda doubt scum marci responds this way to math correctly saying her claim is fake based on the set up.

So if we are between marci and bcg, I would lean bcg - but also have not gotten to the pooky iso yet like toog asked. Just based on these marci posts really. Probably won't get there today either, probably tomorrow.

[Lukewarm]

We have a claimed rolecop and a flipped rolecop?

Did Titus claim before or after frog claimed/died?

[Lukewarm]

Am interested in more info on enchants claim too. Has he said more then what is in that post?

[Lukewarm]

PookyTheMagicalBear - 2-Shot Follower
Spoiler: Acts
N1: Titus. Result: investigative Action
N2: Unknown

Any idea how follower Pooky would have known Titus was specifically an invest?

[Lukewarm]

PookyTheMagicalBear - 2-Shot Follower
Spoiler: Acts
N1: Titus. Result: investigative Action
N2: Unknown

Any idea how follower Pooky would have known Titus was specifically an invest?

Followers see the action type of who they follow.

Oh, my brain read follower as tracker

[Lukewarm]

We have a claimed rolecop and a flipped rolecop?

Did Titus claim before or after frog claimed/died?

Frog claimed in thread
Titus claimed after that but didn’t act as CC.

Worth of note she hasn’t confirmed her RC claim. Only that she can check for vanilla/not vanilla

If she is actually claiming role cop, then forcing her to target bcg/marci should tell us a lot right?

If marci is actually a doc, it seems like if she was scum she would have always protected pooky if NM announced he was gonna target him, right?

If she is actually claiming like vanilla cop, then obviously not as helpful

[Lukewarm]

We have a claimed rolecop and a flipped rolecop?

Did Titus claim before or after frog claimed/died?

Frog claimed in thread
Titus claimed after that but didn’t act as CC.

Worth of note she hasn’t confirmed her RC claim. Only that she can check for vanilla/not vanilla

If she is actually claiming role cop, then forcing her to target bcg/marci should tell us a lot right?

If marci is actually a doc, it seems like if she was scum she would have always protected pooky if NM announced he was gonna target him, right?

If she is actually claiming like vanilla cop, then obviously not as helpful

She’s claiming rolecop.

Marci had full claimed. Checking someone who is not full claimed then she hand shakes part and the other person confirms is the only way to confirm.

Otherwise Titus just goes “yep matches the claim” and we don’t know

I think that you are thinking about it to test Titus, but I was thinking about it to test Marci.

[Lukewarm]

Am interested in more info on enchants claim too. Has he said more then what is in that post?

Yes.

My role is also doubled.

In your thing it says "no action," does that mean you did not act or that you have not revealed your results?

Because if you are one of the claimed invests (Tracker, Follower, Rolecop, Voyeur) I don't get why you would not have acted yet.

[Lukewarm]

How does that test Marci?

I believe she’s that role regardless of her alignment?

And if she was on Pooky as I explained to Titus

I would have gotten
1 killing action
1 protective
1 investigative

So then Pooky is just the elim that day
Saving Pooky doesn’t help scum there.

We get the same result.

I don't think that that is the same result for the scum team, because while it only saves pooky for a single day phase, it shields all other members of the scum team for this day as well --- so my point is that if she was scum, she would have saved pooky anyways. and since he was not saved by a doc, confirming her as a doc would make her more likely today.

Also, if she saw a loyal body guard claim saying that they were going to be on him as well, might think that this could provide a false clear on pooky since he would be saved, and the bodyguard might think that he was the one that did it.

Seeing this post, I am realizing that it would result in an unexpected invest on pooky that night, but like, I think that you still might go for it instead of just letting pooky die?

[Lukewarm]

Okay, I read through Pooky's iso, and my feeling was that he is not partnered with Marci or Toog (Or Frog or greeting, but I saw that they flipped already lol).

Marci because it was his opening push on Day 2

I am currently voting for Marci cuz she isn't reacting like she does when she's town. Her responses are too nonchalant like she is trying to play things cool.

This is probably the most put together reason behind any of his votes other then greeeting/Alisae day 1 and then Frog end of day 2, and there was steady suspicion on Marci during day 1, into opening up pushing her.

With Toog, his interactions look more like pocketing attempts then partner interactions.

---

I was surprised by Pooky's town case on Math with 1460 and (more detailed) 1626

lol mathblade town for the nonstop spam

This is a weird place and reason for pooky to drop this town read because we just walked out of a game where math repped in as scum, spammed the shit out of the game, and pooky was screaming for his head. This seems like an easy place for pooky to claim it as "this is Math in Lost 2.0"

I saw that he was run up day 2, so gonna try to look over that build up / break down.

[Lukewarm]

so whatd u decide bestie

That was not a going to right now, that was going to next time I get a moment.

Life has been busy last few days, and if I had known I probably would not have joined, but :shrug:

Looking back now actually. Who do you think it is?

[Lukewarm]

Only got through part of the day, did not even get to the pooky wagon yet, but I am kinda at (unsorted within tiers)

Town
Not_Mafia

Town Lean
Toogeloo
MathBlade
marcistar

Null:Town
MariaR

Null
Enchant

scum lean
MalcolmTucker
Cape90
Titus
Big Chungus Gaming

Cape and Malcolm not together.

Spoiler: Luke's thoughts

VOTE: frog

ok just policy this

OMGUS amogus.

You:
1) scum flailed
2) trolled in a disruptive way
3) made weird votes
4) were opportunistic
5) gave me bad vibes

I feel like this from Kitty is spot on regarding BCG but then gives us the classic scenario of "would BCG be so obvious as to eliminate Kitty here?" It's giving me pause on the slot at least.

I feel like this from Kitty is spot on regarding BCG but then gives us the classic scenario of "would BCG be so obvious as to eliminate Kitty here?" It's giving me pause on the slot at least.

Don't like this. IIoA in passive defense of BGC.

I don't think it's passive at all. I'm known for a player who frustratingly and regularly pauses when it comes to reading others at times. I'm still running through the thread since I'd been gone but I'm genuinely intrigued to know what you think - Kitty outlines a pretty blatant, good case on BCG here, so I'm unsure if the kill is a bit obvious coming from scum, because eliminating someone who suspects you/has caught you is something scum are known for sometimes wanting to avoid.

Put it this way - I'm not sure you could read back posts from both me and BCG and see us as likely being paired.

I kinda hate this series of posts from Malcolm. First stating that Chungus would not kill Kitty night 1, because Kitty called him scum Day 1 which is pretty silly on its own, but when called out for it jumped to "but are we paired?" Which is a pretty wild place to jump to

I feel like this from Kitty is spot on regarding BCG but then gives us the classic scenario of "would BCG be so obvious as to eliminate Kitty here?" It's giving me pause on the slot at least.

Don't like this. IIoA in passive defense of BGC.

What's IIoA?

Information instead of analysis. MT doesn't say anything about what he thinks the night kill actually reflects, he just points out that it's a factor and leaves it hanging as some kind of implied counterpoint against Kitty's case being "spot on."

Pedit

I don't like him going after Charloux here either.

VOTE: Malcolm

I want Big Chungus dead D3 especially if this flips scum.

My gut reaction is also a bad one to these posts of Malcolm. 'We obviously aren't paired' makes me think 'we distanced really well' and I thought Malcolm was scum yesterday as well. However my other scumread was wrong. I may be in over my head here. Sometimes it's good to let the game play out a bit and the scummers will kind of sink to the bottom.

Anyway, I'll join you for now because I gotta be right on something

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

aye furtive saw it too

I hate Cape's 1269/1270 defense of Malcolm, acting like it is impossible for a town player to see Malcolm's comments as possibly suspicious

Spoiler:

I feel like this from Kitty is spot on regarding BCG but then gives us the classic scenario of "would BCG be so obvious as to eliminate Kitty here?" It's giving me pause on the slot at least.

Don't like this. IIoA in passive defense of BGC.

What's IIoA?

Information instead of analysis. MT doesn't say anything about what he thinks the night kill actually reflects, he just points out that it's a factor and leaves it hanging as some kind of implied counterpoint against Kitty's case being "spot on."

Pedit

I don't like him going after Charloux here either.

VOTE: Malcolm

I want Big Chungus dead D3 especially if this flips scum.

your voting malcolm after all that?

lol maybe you are just mafia

people are scumreading malcolm at this SOD of all SOD's he has easily had the towniest start so far to the day like ??????????

disappointed if one of frog/furtive are town

and i think at least 1 is

[/spoil/er]

Which, I thought his entrance day 2 was suspicious (and both people he called out are conf. town too)

And then just later Malcolm takes furtive's joke post 1279 seriously, and frames it as scummy

immediately begins to sort of bargain with other players wanting to vote from them

Which is then mirrored by Cape

In post 1279, furtiveglance wrote:
Please don't do this. I can move my vote. I can change!


This response to me felt weird, like are you TMIing me as town?

During this time, I saw them both lightly defending Pooky, but did not grab those quotes.


I don't like either of their positioning here, but also don't think that they are ever scum together.

Struggling to figure out which I think is more likely, because I hated Malcolm's posting start of day, but Cape's posting came after which makes more sense if he is mirroring Malcolm.

-------
MariaR's 1307 does not feel like something you say about a partner

I found myself nodding along to Math's 1394 about Titus, and then in the next several titus posts she just seems to be shit stirring with Mathblade, not actually trying to sort him.

I liked marci's 1435

Marci accused me of going for an easy read in Maria but I'd argue I put out a reasonable and logical town defence of STD who was accumulating a fair few scumreads at the time.

I may be reading this wrong, but it feels like he is saying "Marci scum read me for having an easy scum read, but ignored the town read I dropped on STD" which is a weird defense. because having a good town read has little influence on having a bad scum read? Like town reads are easier for scum lol. It also feels like it implies that if he was scum, he would have just scum read STD, which ignores the possibility that STD slot could be scum. Feels like it preflipped my slot town, or tmi'ed it that way.

----

I hit a BCG check in, and was uninspired (wanted to kill my slot lmao) -- I also saw someone say that it was Koba, and I am used to Koba being way more invested in solving. Like actually yelling at us for killing scum too fast, because he wasn't able to scum hunt as thoroughly as he wanted to lol

-----

[Lukewarm]

Might be down to kill BCG just because its lower down, and the slot is not getting replaced x.x

[Lukewarm]

I claim infinite shot hug deployed and deploy them all on Titus.

Will also be slow to respond work fires.

I also demand an infinite shot hug pr be targeted at me, thank you very much

[Lukewarm]

Also Titus, i hope what ever your dealing with is not too serious and resolves quickly <3

[Lukewarm]

Sidenote: One of the reasons why I don't play on here is this shit that happens in MS games, the fucking like 9 substitutions this game? Are we serious? Like even Toog with their day 1 gameplay could avoid this. It's just bad for the gamestate, hate to say it, and I never wanted to bring this up, but it sure is annoying. It makes me not even wanna try

Replacements are not ideal, but I will say that this many replacements has not been my overall experience on site. Like 2 is fairly common, but I think this is like the 3rd game I have ever existed in with this many replacements

[Lukewarm]

Cape, what is your current read on Malcolm?

[Lukewarm]

wild nobodies doing shit

clearly scum comfy

Yeah, this game seems kinda dead.

I'm down to vote out either of Malcolm or Chungus atm

VOTE: Chungus

This is the one Not_Mafia wants, right?

[Lukewarm]

I don't think Chungus and Pooky's interactions feel like theater. Has anyone else iso'd Pooky and disagrees with that?

I did an iso of pooky, and did not notice anything discounting the possibility. Are you talking about something in particular

[Lukewarm]

The main issue I have is i don’t think BGC is scum.

We should finish mass claim.

Who are we waiting on?

Enchant seems to have only partially claimed. Toog was not on the master list

So just the two of them foe a full mass claim?

[Lukewarm]

I'll try door nimber 2

VOTE: Malcolmtucker

[Lukewarm]

I am std slot, I am a VT

[Lukewarm]

I'll try door nimber 2

VOTE: Malcolmtucker

Your vote on me here doesn't feel particularly consistent with some of your posts from before? Feels a bit opportunistic, like you're realising I could be a convenient elimination to take some heat away from your slot which was under pressure before STD dropped out.

Much inconsistent
Such opportunistic

Spoiler:

scum lean
MalcolmTucker
Cape90
Titus
Big Chungus Gaming

Yeah, this game seems kinda dead.

I'm down to vote out either of Malcolm or Chungus atm

VOTE: Chungus

This is the one Not_Mafia wants, right?

I'll try door nimber 2

VOTE: Malcolmtucker

Like you were in my scum pile, and then when I looked at my scum pile, I saw that my town reads were interested in BCG (NM) and you (Marci), so was willing to back either option to progress the game.

My other town reads shot down BCG (Toog and MB)

So here we are.

----

You were in my scum pile because when I read part of Day 2, your defense when Frog called out your bcg's town logic, your response was "but are we partnered" and when Marci called out your MariaR read, your response was "but what about my STD read."

Both defenses feel like they make more sense coming from a point of view of "but what about these other, unrelated things that I did that I thought would make people think that I was town" instead of "oh, you think me doing this is scummy, well you are wrong because I did it / thought it and am town."

-----

ngl, you calling it inconsistent without backing it up at all, sure doesn't make me think you are less likely to be scum, because this just seems like shade for the sake of shade.

[Lukewarm]

Luke seems town so far on their play. Didn't like BCG but suppose it's possible they largely just got disengaged given the replace out.

You called my play town until I voted you, and you called my vote on you inconsistent based on nothing

[Lukewarm]

Do we tell NM who to shot

Marci.

You gonna finish your claim?

It seems like since he is scum reading BCG, that is probably where he is gonna shoot.

[Lukewarm]

why do u need to confgirm nm again?

I think the point is to know : did they live because of the disloyal mod or because a scum doc was on them

Tests the target, not NM

[Lukewarm]

Do we tell NM who to shot

Marci.

You gonna finish your claim?

It seems like since he is scum reading BCG, that is probably where he is gonna shoot.

Enchant already said not a vig?

Was previously discussed Marci?

If NM goes BCG I need to know so I change and we are on the same target

Never said enchant was a vig, I was talking about who NM was gonna target.

NM wanted bcg dead today, it didn't happen. Seems like he would want to target bcg tonight.


But it's really up to him I guess

[Lukewarm]

Looks like that is hammer.

I feel like the plan should have a "if malclolm flips scum X, if they flip town Y" for the targeting, but it might be too late to coordinate. Like, Marci is never scum with Malcolm, so if Malcolm does flip scum, it seems less optimal to have every pr in the game on her

[Lukewarm]

Forgot I was in this game but there's nothing happening. Like, we have nothing to go off of just vote and let's move on.

Maria also seems less likely to be scum if Malcolm flips scum. Feels like she would be more aware of her buddy getting hammered lol

[Lukewarm]

Oh shit, OK if I still have a shot I'll target Marci.

Didn't we establish that Chungus used his PR on Pooky?

[Lukewarm]

Marci can be one shot BP.

This false godfather clear wouldn't happen in a normal game. You're reaching.

I hate that you're just being opposite for the sake of being opposite. A rationally thinking mechanics based player would say proving Johnny and Luke/Malcolm is the right manuever because then it PoEs the game to you, me, marci, luke/malcolm.

The problem is you won't do that because you want every exit hatch open.

Titus, I am reading this, and it sounds like you are saying that the current PoE is You, Math, Marci, Me, Malcolm, and Johnny.

And you wanted to kill me to day, and clear johnny tonight - Which takes two of those people out of the POE, to end up with a final PoE of You, Math, Marci, and Malcolm.

What I am not following is why that path is strictly better, to the point of you and Math fighting over it, if Math wants to do Marci? Like, that also pulls two people out of the PoE that you seem to be presenting since you have every player being discussed as an option in your PoE to start with, right?

[Lukewarm]

Luke seems town so far on their play. Didn't like BCG but suppose it's possible they largely just got disengaged given the replace out.

You called my play town until I voted you, and you called my vote on you inconsistent based on nothing

Your play alone since you started hadn't been scummy but STD's was incredibly scummy before they replaced out. I don't think it's at all beyond your ability to replace into a slot and come across as quite townie in a scum slot.

You still never even tried to show what you were calling inconsistent with me.

You called my position around you inconsistent without actually showing where you were claiming that was, when I called you out for it, your response was to walk it back and just call STD scummy?

[Lukewarm]

We get confirmed matching slignments rather than clearing someone we should already know is town.

I agree marci looks townie to me, so "don't use a clear on someone I think is town" makes sense, but then you had Marci in your PoE list, and that is where you lost me.

[Lukewarm]

Okay, reading through the night actions.

Enchant saw that there was 1 invest on Marci. Math saw that there was 1 invest on Marci. Titus saw that Enchant is a night 3 voyeur.

Enchant forced all of those claims to come out in the order that proved Titus is a role cop, and proved that Math is a Voyuer. And because of titus's role, enchant's role is also confirmed.

Math: Vouyer
Titus: Rolecop
Enchant: Vouyer

All confirmed, (unless specifically Enchant+Titus scum team together I guess)

Not Mafia agreed to try and kill of Marci, and she did not die, so she is confirmed town, right?

The only PR claim that is not a confirmed PR then is Johnny now? IF we don't kill him today, then Titus should be on him, right

6 invest + a vig seems like too much (Math, titus, enchant, marci, Frog, furtive), so I gotta believe that there is scum in there. Looking at the list, Titus would be my best guess. Pooky did not look partnered with Math, and he has been putting in the work to create clears, and the way that enchant forced out the claims today was pretty impressive. Most pro-town play I think I have ever seen from enchant actually lol. Marci was not killed by NM

---

I am down for either Johnny or Titus for today

[Lukewarm]

IF we don't kill him today, then Titus should be on him, right

Wait, forget this if we are killing one of them today lmao

[Lukewarm]

Lol Cape's scum.

Moving on.

Titus, are you just calling everyone who suspects you scum?

[Lukewarm]

Enchant
JohnnyFarrar
Lukewarm
Cape90
Titus
Toogeloo
MathBlade
marcistar
MariaR

With 16 original players that's, what, 5 scum? 4? So we might be in Elo right now?

Ok I'll start with Enchant

I saw Math comment on the alignment split too on current page -- the alignment split is mod confirmed

there are 12 town and 4 mafia.

With pooky out, that means there are 3 scum left

[Lukewarm]

About Enchant, they hammered the vote on Malcolm over 2 days in advance. Town love playing anti-town so my money is on Enchant just being town for that reason, but theoretically, sounds like a silly reason to clear someone.

Have you ever played with Enchant before? He hammers almost every wagon that hits e-1, I have seen him describe himself as "like not_mafia" lol

So, hammers from him are pretty nai

That being said, I feel like the way he used his PR and took charge at start of day to confirm his, maths, and titus's roles looked pretty town motivated, so :shrug:

[Lukewarm]

Suspicion: Titus was scared of a guilty on Maria. Seemed a bit of subconscious.
Prior suspicion: Titus was not a rolecop.
Fear: Titus put together about Enchant having a double and used my result to guess n3 voyeur on Enchant and Maria did the kill.

It feels unlikely that Titus just guessed Night 3 Vouyer, when all she would have had to go on was him claiming to be a duplicate invest and having a guilty at start of day -- especially since Vouyer is less likely to ever find a guilty then tracker, so that would seem like the more likely guess, or at least a valid guess -- making guessing at all pretty risky.

After getting Enchant right, I feel like Titus is most likely a rolecop, regardless of her alignment

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Titus's positioning around Johnny feels off in general.

Like, she was fighting against Johnny's elim yesterday, and pushing for mine

No reason to elim a loyal bg claim. Matching BCG's target with Math confirms BCG and that target as sharing alignments. No match means different alignments.

But is now trying to set it up such that if Johnny is killed and flips scum, then she gets her preferred elimination.

If we do lim Johnny and it flips scum, I want Luke tomorrow. No questions asked.

Like, she is simultaneously trying to keep johnny from going over, but also setting up for a johnny scum flip.

----

And there is her interactions with Johnny getting the shots wrong.

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Remaining?

immediately catching that it was not what we all thought it was before the claim, but then just not actually seeming to care, and instead start trying to play around him having his shot and where it could go, instead of focusing on the discrepency, and sorting that before trying to use it.

If BcG has his shot, then he should be the one to be confirmed. We can confirm BcG as the same or differing alignment as someone else. Math can voyeur it.

And in a scum!johnny, scum!Titus world, this idea is to say that johnny is targetting me with a loyal ability, and then have Math vouyer me. Once johnny does not show up as visiting me - johnny claims that he did not get a result, and together they get to say that that is a guilty on me.

Yeah, johnny dies next, but after his flubbed claim, forcing a miselim with him before he goes down seems like the strategic choice.

Johnny is likely a flubbed the claim scenario and thus must be eliminated before elo.

And even when you get to her positioning today, she is saying that because his claim did not line up he needs to die before elo, but like also, today is the day before elo, and she is not actually trying to kill him, or push the idea that he needs to die, which makes this line feel hollow.

----

Like regardless of the situation, she is just trying to force out a miselim because we are close to elo at this point

[Lukewarm]

It feels like there is a pretty solid consensus on johnny and titus + 1

Like, that is my solve, maths solve, Toogs solve, and cape's solve, right?

Maria and Marci and Enchant, where do each of you stand on Johnny and Titus?

[Lukewarm]

Which does seem worrying since Lukewarm has quite literally suspected me since he came into the game and Titus definitely seems like they have sights set on me and by day 3, I sure wasn't that towny and I was a force behind all 3 misvotes.

This feels like you are saying that I was saying that Titus is gunning for your miselim, but I was saying that she is trying to get mine, seeing as how I am consistently in her solve, and the +1 around me shifts based on who she needs to discredit at the time.

Plus the way it looked like she was setting up for a false guilty on me yesterday

Lol Cape's scum.

Moving on.

Titus, are you just calling everyone who suspects you scum?

Like this comment makes me rather paranoid

I mean, the timing behind

Spoiler:

Thinking about it, I suppose having 2 weakish town protectives makes a lot more sense then a full on rolecop and a partial rolecop

VOTE: Titus

While I haven't found Johnny to be particularly useful at all, Titus has seemingly an obvious agenda today in my view.

Lol Cape's scum.

Moving on.

Reminded me of her doing the same thing yesterday

Spoiler:

The more you beg the more I am convinced I am right.

The more you beg the more I am convinced I am right.

Math and Luke. Sign sealed and delivered.

Which was immediately calling the people calling her scum, scum back. Like immediately.

[Lukewarm]

grr

Marci, do you have something to share with the class?

[Lukewarm]

It feel like if we keep this day going, it is just going to turn into Titus and Math wall posting at one another for several irl days, and then we still kill johnny.

I say we just skip past that lol

VOTE: johnny

[Lukewarm]

I wish I knew if Johnny's claim on one shot loyal BG is verifiable since I was just one-shot loyal BG, but I literally went on town and not mafia

I think the only thing close to it being verifiable would be to force titus to target johnny, but if Titus is scum it does not mean very much, and would require both of them to be allowed to live through the day

[Lukewarm]

What benifit of visiting marci who is most likely not lying about role (due being town), instead of anyone else?

Scum are likely going to kill Marci. Barring a ninja mod that will count as a visit.
Titus visits Marci. This is a visit.

Voyeur sees all visits.

If Titus is a combined X + rolecop then I see that as a voyeur as Titus would rolecop and X.
If the scum killing is combined killer and Y then I see X and Y as actions.

It’s a way to figure out a way to trust Titus. Between Johnny’s likely red flip and if any “extras” tells me who scum are. If there happens to be another doubled up protective who saves Marci even better.

I don’t trust her to tell the truth on Johnny as I think they are aligned. Going with the Titus checks Johnny and I voyeur Johnny means that Titus says whatever she wants and we likely elim town today and then have to elim scum only the rest of the game.

Math, I am not sure why this is better then forcing the same on a slot other then Marci?

If we kill johnny, and he is scum, there are two scum left. You force Titus to target the same person as you, letting you see her invest -- and then the other scum kills.

What part of this makes it need to be on Marci, who you said is likely the elim? Couldn't you double up on cape, or Toog, or Maria, or me to verify a vanilla claim instead?

I am not really sure what you are trying to get doubling up with her at all, other then checking if she is a combined role, like how marci is a combined doctor/tracker, which you would get on any target, so long as you both announced who you would be on

[Lukewarm]

Extra scum visit Marci because unless Titus is multitasking Marci won’t die otherwise.

I can voyeur her somewhere else but it’s suboptimal as we expect scum to have two PRs. If Titus is town then we need what PR they are.

If we go somewhere else I have to decide between getting possible information on scum or if Titus is a rolecop.

If you and Titus as role cop and last scum as night kill are on Marci -- you get a result of invest + kill. And then you are looking to see if there is anything else that pops up, right?

But if you and Titus are on someone else --- you get invest, and then you are looking to see if there is anything else that pops up?

What is the scenario where the information that you get for being on Marci is better then the info you get for being on someone else? If their partner is combined kill+something other then kill that they must fire with their kill? That is the only thing I can think of, but I dont think that I have seen something like that in any game of mafia I have ever been in.

Is there another scenario you are trying to look into / rule out?

[Lukewarm]

First question: yes.

Then if “something else” comes up on the first case Titus then knows that there’s a scum PR that exists that did the kill. This means the vanillas did not do the kill that she already checked. It also leads towards a soft inno on the vanilla checks as if they had a vanilla kill they’d probably use it.

The “something else” just on Titus’s target that is not Marci means scum can kill with whoever and however they wish.

I was not really trying to argue with you here, I am just not really understanding.

Because if your interested in picking up if titus has two abilities, then that would happen on any target. So the bonus info you gain by being on Marci is only about their partner, which they just don't use unless they are a forced combined kill + something ability. So what I am not understanding is what result do you get that gives you actionable info?

-

Kill + 2 invests

?

• Even if the other scum is a combined night kill + invest, don't they just send that person there and not send Titus, meaning you never get this result

Kill + invest + protective

is nonsense.

Kill + invest + roleblock

?

It feels like you are saying, that targeting marci over a VT gives you the ability to check if titus's partner is exactly a combined killer + role blockers, which feels like such a narrow possibility

But, on the other hand, forcing Titus to visit a VT claim:
(hitting a townie) forces her to decide if she is going to confirm that person as a VT or fake a guilty
(hitting a non goon partner fake claiming a VT ) forces her to decide if she is going to lie to cover up her partner resulting in her immediate elim if that person dies before her or out her partner resulting in their immediate elim
(hitting a goon partner true claiming a VT) seems likely useless, as she just says they are a VT

This feels to me like it pushes Titus into more revealing situations then having her target Marci

And if we live in a world where Titus is town, then confirming a VT claim is actually more useful then confirming Marci who is likely the night kill, and will therefore flip

[Lukewarm]

Based on setup spec has to be Titus or MariaR plus one of the vanillas. Maybe even both.

I don’t see two shot follower + 1 shot BG against this amount of power.

Why is Maria pulled out of the Vanilla claims to get her spot next to Titus here?

[Lukewarm]

I am leaning pretty hard towards it being Titus, like ever since I got here it seemed like she has been trying to deflect wagons off of Johnny and onto me and johnny was scum.

And her just unflinchingly back at me sure is not doing anything to convince me otherwise.

I think that cape is unlikely to be partnered with titus, so seems likely to be Titus + [Maria/Toog]

[Lukewarm]

I have not voted anyone.

I saw Maria immediately sheep Titus, and then saw Toog split from Titus onto Maria, and I am kind of thinking about which one I think would be the more likely strategy. I intend to look back the two of them as well, but have not had time

[Lukewarm]

Toog's recent string of posts feels less like he could be aligned with Titus. Abandoning his Maria push and transitioning to Titus here does not seem like the play that he would make, when he could just hold onto the maria push hoping that. given cape's recent posting wrt to maria, by the end of the day cape could be convinced to join him there - and leave open the possiblity of transition to me as the day spread out.

Walking away from maria, while calling cape obviously definitely town feels like he is closing too many miselimination doors to be scum here.

Titus+MariaR is what I am thinking now.

Just got a chunk of free time, so gonna go do some isos. Should be around if anyone has questions.

[Lukewarm]

Toog's recent string of posts feels less like he could be aligned with Titus. Abandoning his Maria push and transitioning to Titus here does not seem like the play that he would make, when he could just hold onto the maria push hoping that. given cape's recent posting wrt to maria, by the end of the day cape could be convinced to join him there - and leave open the possiblity of transition to me as the day spread out.

Walking away from maria, while calling cape obviously definitely town feels like he is closing too many miselimination doors to be scum here.

just another example of you calling me a miselim when you have me in your POE...

This post is explicitly why I don't think that Toog is titus's partner lol

Thinking about that possible scum team, would make every slot other then Titus a miselim for him.

----

But also, I have not really scum read you since day 3. The more sure I have become that Titus is scum, the more I have started thinking you are town because I don't think that you and Titus are ever partnered

[Lukewarm]

Currently searching through chungus's iso for comments about toog and maria

Spoiler: MariaR

squinting pretty hard at the transistion from the two above, to here

preliminary Thoughts: at least one of maria/frog are mafia. Neri feels subdued but i wont push it just based on that bc i like them like this and prefer it that way

VOTE: frog

Also mariar is one of the best players of this game so the fact we have scumreads that align is a sign i think she is town between frog/maria

@std i think ur town but maria is srsly not the play here. Pls consider voting with me here: VOTE: frogster

Like he starts by saying one of them is scum, then says that Maria is likely the town "between frog/maria" which feels like it should mean he is trying to appear to still think that one of them is scum, because he is still tying them together. But despite that being his position, he then reached out reaching out directly to STD to keep him from voting Maria.

It feels like, if they were both town, this his goal would have been angling for both, saying there is scum inside one of them, so when one flips town he is set up to push the next. Instead he divested himself away from the scum read on maria by shielding her here. Once he did that Maria just kind of floats in his town reads from there

Toog

Comments on Toog are super sparce, and only time I see an alignment comment from him it is a "if frog scum, then toog town" so tying it to a townie feels like he is leaving himself open to what ever he needs to do wrt to toog in the future. Not geting strong feelings either way, just because he did not really talk about him enough for me to decern if he would or would not say X about a partner.

[Lukewarm]

Reopened Johnny's iso, and wow, johnny just... did not talk about anyone really.

He has a bad reaction to Enchant saying he has a guilty on him, like he is trying to figure out if it is a fake out or not.

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Mal has votes because Mal didn’t play the way scum Titus expected

So he’s getting run up as a VT.

I meant if Enchant was claiming a guilty on me I'd expect a lot more votes in my direction. Or better yet, votes in Enchant's direction since I'm not actually guilty

Then falls into a line of "well, if the game is solved, then I don't gotta solve" and says nothing about anyone


Then when he could not coast on that, he made a showing that he was getting ready to go through isos one at a time, in order of the player list, but then gave up after literally doing just one (enchant) without even giving a read on him.

He was pretty actively not talking about literally anyone.

-----

Only thing I gathered here was not likely partnered with Enchant, because of the way he responded to the fake guilty, but otherwise nothing of substance here.

[Lukewarm]

Still feeling best about Titus + Maria

VOTE: Titus

Pedit: the AtE coming from Titus is something else

[Lukewarm]

I feel like Titus's positioning around Johnny feels off in general.

Like, she was fighting against Johnny's elim yesterday, and pushing for mine

No reason to elim a loyal bg claim. Matching BCG's target with Math confirms BCG and that target as sharing alignments. No match means different alignments.

But is now trying to set it up such that if Johnny is killed and flips scum, then she gets her preferred elimination.

If we do lim Johnny and it flips scum, I want Luke tomorrow. No questions asked.

Like, she is simultaneously trying to keep johnny from going over, but also setting up for a johnny scum flip.

----

And there is her interactions with Johnny getting the shots wrong.

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Remaining?

immediately catching that it was not what we all thought it was before the claim, but then just not actually seeming to care, and instead start trying to play around him having his shot and where it could go, instead of focusing on the discrepency, and sorting that before trying to use it.

If BcG has his shot, then he should be the one to be confirmed. We can confirm BcG as the same or differing alignment as someone else. Math can voyeur it.

And in a scum!johnny, scum!Titus world, this idea is to say that johnny is targetting me with a loyal ability, and then have Math vouyer me. Once johnny does not show up as visiting me - johnny claims that he did not get a result, and together they get to say that that is a guilty on me.

Yeah, johnny dies next, but after his flubbed claim, forcing a miselim with him before he goes down seems like the strategic choice.

Johnny is likely a flubbed the claim scenario and thus must be eliminated before elo.

And even when you get to her positioning today, she is saying that because his claim did not line up he needs to die before elo, but like also, today is the day before elo, and she is not actually trying to kill him, or push the idea that he needs to die, which makes this line feel hollow.

----

Like regardless of the situation, she is just trying to force out a miselim because we are close to elo at this point

Just gonna pull this up to today.

Titus spent multiple days trying to divert wagons off Johnny And her reaction to johnny's slip on how many shots he had does not make sense to come from someone actually interested in sorting johnny

[Lukewarm]

I mean, just look at how much effort Titus put into diverting the BCG / Johnny wagons

mostly aimed at swaying Math off of there.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[/spo/iler]

vote count 1.7 !

Big Chungus Gaming (4):

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, Toogeloo, Frogsterking

Save The Dragons (3):

Gamma Emerald, Charloux, Enchant

Frogsterking (3):

Greeting, Big Chungus Gaming, Save The Dragons

MalcolmTucker (1):

MariaR

Cape90 (1):

SirRhett

Toogeloo (1):

marcistar

Enchant (1):

Cape90

not voting (2):

MalcolmTucker, Fennec

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to blow someone up. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-12 15:00:00)

modorator notes

• e

If we suppose that then, Frogsterking is almost certainly town.

I partially understand wanting to flip BCG regardless of if I am right or wrong for the VCA, but that's not evidence BCG is scum.

why what changed?

what makes it opportunistic? who else is coming after you right now?

Math pushes me as scum, MalcolmTucker is floating me being scum. Voting me gives you a place to hide and stir up drama.

I have been coordinating wagons to sort (see Pooky wagon) for the last few pages. You seem interested in forcing me v Math to continue when it's not productive.

StD voted BGC first before I replaced in.

Explain how StD is using me voting BGC to hide there?

That’s like ???

And he moved from BGC to you?

Your questions don't make any sense so I can't answer them.

BcG has nothing to do with my FoS on StD

BGC wagon is because the two dead town agree on it.
If another town dies and it tells me my reads wrong I change.

So basically you'll listen to no one on BcG unless they're dead?

Even if BCG is proven not a lurker?

@Enchant what would you do here?

@Math, I am unwilling to vote BcG or Frogsterking. Is there any room to work together? There's more than two scum.

@Enchant what would you do here?

@Math, I am unwilling to vote BcG or Frogsterking. Is there any room to work together? There's more than two scum.

Our pools just seem to be in complete disarray here.

I don’t see us working together until you explain why you don’t want to elim BGC.

I don't see a single decent reason to vote BCG beyond getting reactions which you're not helping with drowning out everyone else.

Doubly so when your biggest reason for voting is lurker which is patently false.

BCG is a strong TR of Frogsterking and he's my biggest TR.

I’d like to elim BGC and get commitments on who is investing who so I can voyeur and confirm which will leash the scum.

I'll investigate BcG if you leave him and Frogsterking be today. Let's do Malcolm.

I’d like to elim BGC and get commitments on who is investing who so I can voyeur and confirm which will leash the scum.

I'll investigate BcG if you leave him and Frogsterking be today. Let's do Malcolm.

That’s one commitment down.

Although I literally have no one I can elim if you suggest that so it’s down a vote because I literally cannot make a world without one of you three. I’ve been trying.

Like the odds of hitting town are astronomical.

That's because you're tunneled.

There's plenty of actual, viable suspects if you can separate from your conclusions and reset.

Look at the VCs supposing that BcG Frogsterking and I are town

Even if one of the three wagons is scum, there's no specific reason why BcG. My money is StD is the scum wagon.

However, it's day 2 and no mafia flip, so strongly prefer Malcolm. He's basic and never saw Star Wars.

I think her context makes her a fine rolecop claim but I really think that mass claim again solves this problem.

Then we decide a universal target to “cop” check as a thread.

No. You're supposing things to make her post less problematic just to get what you want.

I don't think letting BcG live means all invest claims die.

Can you just let people play?

That's not discussing my reads. Frankly, I see StD as scum in the VCA. He was an active poster before this. StD's reaction to the claims to say "That's a lot of claims" and dip.

I am sick of going around on BcG. Let's talk about other slots.

K, BcG claim wasn't what I was expecting. D1 play makes no sense. FoS BcG and Pooky now.

Let's lim Pooky. BcG will sort himself as a bodyguard claim.

.....

Ships passing in the night. Why do you think Frogsterking is ignoring the crumbs when he says BcG's claim makes him scummy?

We don't need you reposting the crumbs. We know what they are. It's your position that Frogsterking is ignoring stuff that makes no sense...

Spoiler:

[/spoil/er]

vote count 1.7 !

Big Chungus Gaming (4):

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, Toogeloo, Frogsterking

Save The Dragons (3):

Gamma Emerald, Charloux, Enchant

Frogsterking (3):

Greeting, Big Chungus Gaming, Save The Dragons

MalcolmTucker (1):

MariaR

Cape90 (1):

SirRhett

Toogeloo (1):

marcistar

Enchant (1):

Cape90

not voting (2):

MalcolmTucker, Fennec

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to blow someone up. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-12 15:00:00)

modorator notes

• e

Let's look here first. Pooky's presence makes it less likely BCG is scum.

Spoiler:

[/spo/iler]

vote count 1.8 !

Big Chungus Gaming (4):

KittyTacky, PookyTheMagicalBear, Toogeloo, Frogsterking

Save The Dragons (3):

Gamma Emerald, Charloux, Enchant

Frogsterking (3):

Greeting, Big Chungus Gaming, Save The Dragons

Enchant (2):

Cape90, furtiveglance

MalcolmTucker (1):

MariaR

Cape90 (1):

Titus

Toogeloo (1):

marcistar

not voting (1):

MalcolmTucker

with 16 alive, it takes 9 to blow someone up. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-12 15:00:00)

modorator notes

• working up the vote count count

We have Frogsterking conftown, BCG likely town. What's the third wagon?

Spoiler:

[/spoi/ler]

vote count 2.6 !

PookyTheMagicalBear (5):

MariaR, Frogsterking, Big Chungus Gaming, Toogeloo, Titus

Titus (2):

Save The Dragons, Cape90

Big Chungus Gaming (2):

furtiveglance, PookyTheMagicalBear

furtiveglance (1):

marcistar

Frogsterking (1):

MathBlade

not voting (3):

Not_Mafia, MalcolmTucker, Enchant

with 14 alive, it takes 8 to blow someone up. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-10-23 14:51:54)

modorator notes

• ba ba ba

Spoiler:

[/sp/oiler]

d2 final!

furtiveglance (8):

marcistar, MathBlade, Toogeloo, MariaR, Cape90, Titus, Enchant, Frogsterking

PookyTheMagicalBear (1):

Big Chungus Gaming

Titus (1):

Save The Dragons

Toogeloo (1):

furtiveglance

Frogsterking (1):

PookyTheMagicalBear

not voting (2):

Not_Mafia, MalcolmTucker

with 14 alive, it took 8 to blow someone up.

Pooky has an uncontested wagon, minus StD and Cape. MariaR and I started the Pooky wagon (even though I am vote 5). Frogsterking flipped town. BCG is likely town. If any scum, toog.

On furtiveglance, we have only Toog and enchant as possible scum but scum have no interest in saving furtiveglance. StD is as expected off wagon.

StD should be the flip.

Malcolm being vanilla and making no effort to lead is also acceptable.

If Enchant comes back vig, conftown. Kinda was hoping Enchant shoots you or me.

We've established any PR who plays not like you is scum fypov. Frogsterking, furtiveglance, me and BCG. All are town or likely town.

You don't die bc you're the problem.

No reason to elim a loyal bg claim. Matching BCG's target with Math confirms BCG and that target as sharing alignments. No match means different alignments.

I can then check bcg's role.

[Lukewarm]

And her push on my slot started with her first post in this game

Kinda feeling Frogster StD based on preliminary VCs. Weak because both counterwagons are voting Frogster.

VOTE: StD

She is not sorting my slot, she made the decision before she even started playing that my slot was a miselim she thought she could get. Likely because StD can get flack in general

[Lukewarm]

Now, Math, you know my scum game and that it should be blatantly obvious Luke is selling a narrative. I never decide player X is a miselimination prior to the start.

Sure does feel that way when you have not appeared to ever have a second thought about me the entire time I have been in this game.

Seamlessly shifting from "bcg is town, lets kill luke" to "Maybe bcg is scum, but lets kill luke first anyways" to "well, bcg flipped scum, lets kill Luke now"

You are not looking at me, you are just pushing me.

And like, someone you confidently called town for multiple days in a row flipped scum, and that sparked zero re-evaluation from you.

[Lukewarm]

Luke replaced him and has done nothing but kiss your ass and encourage you to order me around.

Also you are just making things up. Out side of being suspicious of you, there has not been much that math and I have even agreed on this game.

Like when I repped in day 3 Math was pushing the idea that there was scum inside BCG/Marci mechanically, and reads whise between you/marci, and I argued for Marci being town, and said we should eliminate Chungus or Malcolm.

Spoiler:

It’s why I am nervous especially if NM has multiple shots that either Marci or BGC would be scum.

literally why am i scum other than for suspecting u malcolm?

Because you’re a claimed protective when town has a vig.

Ergo one of you or BGC likely scum.

Can I get a reads list from you Math?

One of BGC/Marci is scum because vig
Std probably scum

I kinda haven’t given it more thought than that since I will probably be dead.

I don’t like you don’t have an actual role and could be a vanilla cop/Neo but I will leave that alone. It’s worth revisiting if you aren’t dead before elo.

If NM has a shot since BGC is one shot of Titus won’t check there validating BGC and Marci doesn’t visit there (and she shouldn’t since she is claimed even night) wouldn’t hurt.

No reason to elim a loyal bg claim. Matching BCG's target with Math confirms BCG and that target as sharing alignments. No match means different alignments.

BGC says he has no more shots before replacing out.
Marci makes more sense mechanically to be scum
BGC makes more sense by play given he wanted to confirm Pooky before NM came out as disloyal vig.

Titus is being scummy AF right now. I really am super paranoid of Marci/Titus

you also said furtives role makes sense for scum to have but look where that wound u up

It absolutely did. It was still the right play to elim furtive because of that and lying. It’s not like I was alone in saying it either. Given the same facts I’d do it again too.

and you dont pause to think

furtives role makes sense as scum yet hes town
so maybe the same thing applies to others?

geez for someone who keeps trying to take mechanical lead you sure are shit at it

so... why use mechanics if ur so bad at it? u should try focusing on reading ppl for what they've done I think ull have higher chances of succeeding then

I kinda doubt scum marci responds this way to math correctly saying her claim is fake based on the set up.

So if we are between marci and bcg, I would lean bcg - but also have not gotten to the pooky iso yet like toog asked. Just based on these marci posts really. Probably won't get there today either, probably tomorrow.

wild nobodies doing shit

clearly scum comfy

Yeah, this game seems kinda dead.

I'm down to vote out either of Malcolm or Chungus atm

VOTE: Chungus

This is the one Not_Mafia wants, right?

He argued that Not_Mafia should target marci if we were not going to elim her, and I said it should chungus made more sense to me.

Spoiler:

Do we tell NM who to shot

Marci.

You gonna finish your claim?

Do we tell NM who to shot

Marci.

You gonna finish your claim?

It seems like since he is scum reading BCG, that is probably where he is gonna shoot.

And then for most of Day 4 the two of us were arguing different targets for his night action too.

You are trying to frame it like I have been here trying to appease him all game, just because you don't like that the two of us both suspect you.

[Lukewarm]

As i stated, one is likely mafia, but silent agreement on Titus cuts my nerves now.

Problem is, i don't understand motivation of scumteam at all.
Frog was killed when there was revealed Disloyal Vig and no revealed protectives.

Targeting Frog no matter how he was right Rolecop VS Disloyal Vig no matter how he was jestery is ??? play, unless mafia have way to shut down vig notlethally and they seems to be not. I didn't pay attention on this before, but seems like mafia claiming trully, especially if you want argue Titus!scum who are most likely are rolecop and would't fear other Rolecop. So they have no merit to kill rolecop from role perspective.

Frog needed to be

damn right

to be chosen, instead of loyal vig.


... Or mafia are not competent. Possible. MathBlade is actually competent... But i already was in game, where i blindly townreaded him when mafia made most bullshity claim just to get instakilled, and i was like "oh mathblade would suggest more belivable claim if he was mafia".
Yeah, Math was maf in this one. So while we both think about mech in priority, i have no clue how Math ticks. Even less i know about how Titus tick.

EIther way, i am not hammering yet. Need to think it over.

Enchant, you said it yourself that it is weird that there are so many doubled roles.

Role cop + role cop
Voyeur + Voyeur
Tracker + Tracker

But, there is a distinction in there.

Marci was half of a tracker(even night), and furtive was a third of a tracker(joat with 3 abilities). They combined to like

80%

of a full tracker getting to shoot every night as long as they live.

You are a 1 shot, night 3 voyeur. That added to a full voyeur is not really much in the grand scheme of things. As of right now, on day 4, You + Math =

125%

of a full voyuer shooting every night and that just goes down the longer the game goes on.

But Frog was an ungated rolecop, and Titus has claimed 4 results for 4 nights. They would combine to

200%

of a full voyeur right now. I know titus has claimed to be out of shots, so would be lessening over time. But that would not start lowering until DAY 6!

That is definitely the most overlap of the overlaps.

And it makes more sense to me that scum gets a rolecop then scum gets a voyuer anyways. (both are confirmed to be true claiming their roles by how you handled start of day 4). Rolecop actually is useful for a scum team in this set up, to find the vig / doctor / joat. While voyeur, is just... kinda weak.

[Lukewarm]

I'm gonna look through Toog's iso, Cape I see that you are super gung ho about me being scum, but I am town and this is Elo, so if you are town maybe hold for a bit.

[Lukewarm]

Cape is damn near locktown from my PoV. MalcolmTucker was too, and I hate that I didn't push against that harder. Cape isn't in my PoE, and the only way he gets Elimmed is if I get Night Killed.

But you are pushing Cape, which has never been in Frog's PoE. Maria was though, StD was as well, and Frog had a ton of skepticism over Math trying to out PRs while resolving Pooky.

Pushing Cape is where you lost me yesterday. Cape is town.

I don't think that Cape kills Toog here. Toog has cape lock towned and even suspected Titus for suspecting Cape. Toog was exactly who scum!Cape would want to take into ELo I think.

I think I might be wrong on Maria. I am now leaning Titus + Enchant after BCG's iso followed by the events of Day 4.

UNVOTE:

This is the last time that Toog mentioned Enchant, as part of his solve. Enchant has been fairly widely town read up until now, so he could see Toog as a threat.

I'm supporting MariaR elim.

VOTE: MariaR

I'm dying in this hill.

Toog was fairly strong on his Maria scum read for quite a while, although he did start to relent when he transitioned into that Titus+Enchant solve. With Titus's flip, it is fairly reasonable to think he might turn back on Maria.

I think the following players are for sure town...
NM
MT
Cape

Mostly ok with the following players...
Math (with some reservation)*
Marci

Last time Toog made a read statement about math, and that means that cape+math were toog's only two living town reads left from this list.

Cape and Math should not see Toog as a threat, Maria and Enchant could.

One of the former + one of the later might still kill toog to sure up the later. Definitely not cape+math tho.

Possible scum teams:

Cape+Math

Cape+Enchant
Cape+Maria
Math+Enchant
Math+Maria
Maria+Enchant

Cape + anyone feels less likely too, just because Cape would probably feel decent to end game with toog alive given the strength of his read. Like, even if their partner went down cape could arguably win a 3p Elo with Cape+Toog+1, either with toog leading into a cross with the other, or toog choosing cape if cape is crossed with the +1

Cape+Enchant
Cape+Maria

Math on the other hand might be concerned about answering why he is still alive at 3p, and thinks he needs to win now.


So, I am left at
Math+Enchant
Math+Maria
Maria+Enchant

Need to find 1 town in here.

Pedit: Enchant, why are you fucking voting already in Elo?

[Lukewarm]

Pedit: Enchant, why are you fucking voting already in Elo?

[Lukewarm]

Please unvote

[Lukewarm]

At least give everyone time to check in, give there solves, ect.

Like, even if you are sure that Math is scum, you have to also make sure that his partner is found for 3p elo

[Lukewarm]

Jesus fucking christ. I am going to walk away, and if the game is still here when I come back I will sort through the two of them

pedit: thank you

[Lukewarm]

I'm like pretty sure it's Luke/Enchant and I'm prob voting Luke today

@Cape
@Math

Ready to listen and vote the wolves just lmk

I was already leaning Maria as one of the two based on the Toog scum read there and because I was town reading both Math and Enchant before Elo started.

And this feels like Maria+Enchant to me.

Not alienating either of Math or Cape by calling them scum, and only needs one of them to vote me to win.

[Lukewarm]

I'm here and not quick hammering.

But also, I am vla today and tomorrow. Jind of shitty timing, and I'm sorry, but I need to put more brain to this game then I can while vla.

Gut instinct is Enchant tho

[Lukewarm]

I don't believe you for a single but we'll reach that bridge when we cross it.

Don't know why Luke isn't freaking out when they've said they wanna vote Enchant and Cape wants to vote Math making me conf town

I am not sure why I should be freaking out right now?

If I or cape (or you I guess if I am wrong on cape) vote wrong, we lose the game. But that was the same before the cross.

I should be able to re-focus tomorrow. I am VLA account wide

[Lukewarm]

Again, sorry for the timing

[Lukewarm]

IDK I suppose the right play might be Enchant. Literally not voicing your own townreads in the moment is something that is very odd to me and just seems anti-town.

Do you have questions to me?

After MathBlade, who is the most likely mafia candidate after that?

MariaR>Luke>You.

Why do you have MariaR as your answer for the final scum?

[Lukewarm]

Also, hi.

I am going to try and put in some time tonight, instead of tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

Just to do a little complaining, but there were so many replacements this game...

Instead of having 2 flipped scum Isos to sort through for comments on the two crossed voters, we have 4 flipped isos to sort through comments on 4 different players... which is annoying.

Anyways

[Lukewarm]

Do we know for sure that Chungus is Koba? I think I saw someone say that Chungus is Koba

[Lukewarm]

Doing a search, I see lots of people say that he was, but he never confirms it. But he also never denied it, and he did deny being Drapion

[Lukewarm]

Enchant is kinda just like the other games I have played with Enchant so I do not know how to actually read that slot at all

Counterpoint this other game Enchant has been a part of which contradicts everything I just said: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88671

VOTE: Enchant

Easiest mafia game of my life

anyone who claims they can accurately read enchant is a liar, especially while trying to hamfist meta into the read. that being said i have the slot in PoE and could even feasibly be paired with frog/gamma

I am asking this, because Koba has previously told me to "Get Gud" when I said something along the lines of "Enchant is hard to read"

So, this is not a think that Koba actually thinks about Enchant. And he is using a false statement his own thoughts on Enchant to soft defend enchant from Cape here.

[Lukewarm]

JohnnyFarrar Big Chungus Gaming, Crescent
PookyTheMagicalBear

Enchant Nero
Math, and Charloux


Pooky:
The first time Enchant shows up on Pooky's iso is here

I'm going to sleep on this.

I'd love your thoughts on where we should go Pooky.

I'm happy to kill anyone on this list:

marci
Enchant
MT

BCG

But this is after Pooky had several votes, including BCG, and was the leading wagon at the time. He had not voiced a scum read on Enchant prior to being put in that position. Nero's name does not exist in pooky's iso

He also... doesn't vote anyone on this list here. He is still on frog. A couple pages latter he votes BCG.

So, clearly he was not actually trying to push through a wagon on any of these names. I think I can see him putting 2 partners here.

[Lukewarm]

hmmm... going through each scum looking at enchant's name, and I felt good about it still with chungus and math.

But this johnny stuff feels to me like he is awkwardly trying to figure out if he really does have a guilty on him or not...

Spoiler:

Hello! Who wants to catch me up on gamestate?

I am Cop with guilty on you.

I found scum already! Hot shit

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Mal has votes because Mal didn’t play the way scum Titus expected

So he’s getting run up as a VT.

I meant if Enchant was claiming a guilty on me I'd expect a lot more votes in my direction. Or better yet, votes in Enchant's direction since I'm not actually guilty

And like, clearly Johnny did not really know the role lay out of the game yet since he messed up his own claim for how many shots he had.

[Lukewarm]

I get nothing from chungus wrt to math

Pooky feels to me like he is trying to play around Math in a way to keep Math from attacking him, not like he is his partner Especially the detail he threw in to town read math here does not feel like a partner read

mathblade repped in at page 55 and proceeded to spam up half the posts from 55->59 and its mostly nonsense therefore he's town;

like look at this gem of a post:

VOTE: Cape90

VOTE: Crescent

Pooky is nagl with 0 posts from Cape/Crescent in between

Toog seems to be following his d1 promise, so null on Toog

Pooky is being anti Pooky so nagl but I am not sure if it’s because I don’t understand Pooky

saying its not a good look for me to move my vote from Cape to Crescent.

When Crescent has like 2 posts atp and I literally explained why I voted for Crescent, but instead of reading my iso to figure out why I voted for Crescent dude only look at "what did Cape or Crescent do in between Pooky's votes?"

That is a thought process and it's a very literal one, it's a "nothing happened therefore Pooky shouldn't change his vote thus SUSP"

it ignores the fact that the obvious explanation is I didn't notice Crescent was AWOL until I voted for her because I'm not aware of everything.

Like I can see him going through that thought process and going hmmm this is shady what is going on.

whereas if he's scum I don't think he plays it that way because its just dumb and is asking me to pay attention to him and he mostly doesn't want me to do that when he's scum because he thinks I can read him close to perfectly.

[Lukewarm]

It is also just hard for me to think that Math scum would have never... just, relented in Titus's attempt to kill me.

Especially yesterDay, when letting Titus get a miselim on me walks into Elo with Titus able to potentially be eliminated in either 5p elo or 3p elo because of it.

[Lukewarm]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

[Lukewarm]

I don't believe you for a single but we'll reach that bridge when we cross it.

Don't know why Luke isn't freaking out when they've said they wanna vote Enchant and Cape wants to vote Math making me conf town

I am not sure why I should be freaking out right now?

If I or cape (or you I guess if I am wrong on cape) vote wrong, we lose the game. But that was the same before the cross.

I should be able to re-focus tomorrow. I am VLA account wide

So, I was also thinking about this more, and what Maria is saying here makes no sense.

She is saying that she would expect me (who she thinks is scum) to be freaking out because cape wants to vote Math (who she thinks is town).

The only way this is actually a thought that that makes sense is if she is changing her partner read on me from Enchant->Math, but... she is still calling Math town in the post before that.

[Lukewarm]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

I see many letters, but can i get TL/DR why you don't believe me?

I mean, my points were basically:

~Chungus soft defended you

~Pooky avoided commenting on you at all until he was in danger of elimination

~Pooky looks not partnered with Math.

~Math could have let Titus elim me at some point.

[Lukewarm]

This also begs the question why Luke hasn't voted when me and Cape have been iffy but Luke has been deadset this whole phase. The postering is wolfy as hell.

Ah yes, the incredibly scummy activity of : waiting to make sure you and the other person you think is town are on the same page before you vote in ELO

[Lukewarm]

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

[Lukewarm]

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

Do you think Cape is mafia

This one?

I did not answer when I read it, because I had already made it clear that I thought Cape was town and so this looked like busy work.

I am here and reading, but mainly at this point I am just waiting for cape to come back, and they have not posted since the last time I did.

[Lukewarm]

And you think i am teamed with MariaR?

Why

This also feels like busy work.

Like you already asked me why I thought math was scum over you, and I responded.

I also explained why I think that Maria is scum too.

It kind of just feels like you don't actually know how to properly defend yourself, but you are not wanting to just *give up* so you are just asking pointless questions.

[Lukewarm]

Okay, I put a lot of energy into this game over the night, and put a lot of time into doing a scum case.

But I am not home right now, and it is on my PC.

VOTE: Maria

Case will come later tonight once I am back home

[Lukewarm]

No body being here is making me uncomfortable.

I was really looking forward to either the instant cross or the cape "here, not hammering" post to tell me I am right, so if either one of you can log on I would greatly appreciate it

[Lukewarm]

Okay, thank you

[Lukewarm]

Yeah, the timing was appreciated lol

[Lukewarm]

I don't actually get to Elo very often.

I think I have done 4 ever? And two of those were in the guardians set up, where all players on the playerlist are broken up into 3p elos.

But of the 4, I have also never voted correctly in Elo before, so this is nice.

[Lukewarm]

Okay.

Am home.

[Lukewarm]

Day 3

-- Pooky just flipped scum.


Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Ngl I started TRing Frog but just didn't say anything cause I wanted people to think I'd push them. Unlucky that they died but that makes me think someone's role would out them as a wolf.

Think I'm voting in

Save/MT/Too

Okay, he top scum reads as partners for pooky are: STD, MalcolmTucker, and Toog.

But then her next real post after this one is an empty vote on BCG

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

VOTE: BCG

Why did she vote here? It is outside of her top 3 scum reads. Well, this is what just happened before this vote

Spoiler:

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

replacing save the dragons as well as big chungus gaming

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

Scum repalce out

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

VOTE: BCG

Working with my TRs

It was in response to this wagon forming on the slot after it started getting replaced.

But as soon as the wagon started dissipating, she moved away again. This time to Malcolm Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

This whole thing feels off. Like her votes are not moving based on her reads, they are moving based on where she needs to be positioned.

The thing that stands out to me, is that at the start of day, Toog was her biggest scum read based on her entrance, and when those votes piled up Toog was one of them. Like, yes, I know that NM and Math were there too, but she is not responding at all to the fact that her biggest scum read just naked voted onto this quick forming wagon.

This is compounded when you look at her leaving the BCG wagon. When she leaves, NM is still there calling the slot scum, and if she was there just to sheep conf town NM, then why does she leave to be The First Vote on a new wagon? Or was she sheeping Math, who was only there to sheep NM and Toog?

And even the person who actually made the argument not to vote BCG was Toog.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Also, everyone is Pooky and let me know if their interactions with BCG seem aligned. I'm think I'm getting cold feet on this one.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

UNVOTE:

NM, let's look elsewhere.

So, she followed her biggest scum read onto the wagon, and followed her biggest scum read back off.

It just… feels like her being on the wagon in the first place was not read motivated, but instead motivated on positioning wrt her scum buddy getting ran up while they could not defend themselves, and then hoping off once that issue resolved itself.

[Lukewarm]

Side note:

The Toog read

As soon as Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately had Toog as his scum partner

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

If toog is mafia, I am just suspecting people that don't try day 1 only to actually become helpful day 2. Happened with Pooky after all. Not interested in exploring that until later

You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia? Gasp.

But the issue that I have here, is that is makes this feel like it was fake nuance

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Do you think Toog and Frog are both bussing Pooky?

Maybe, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be.

I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is but meh.

Pooky is a follower claim, if they went over it wouldn't be the end of the world.
What part of my reads don't match my play?

The fact that the moment Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately went to Toog as a super obvious partner, makes it obvious that she never actually thought this in 2193.

"I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is"

and

"You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia?"

Are like, intrinsically opposite thoughts.

X being true is

unlikely because of reason Y

, but could be possible
X being true is

very likely because of reason Y

[Lukewarm]

Day 6

Maria spent the entire day on the fence. Constantly saying that she needed more time to read before she could commit to a vote.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Also the only reason I'm not voting is because I'm still reading unlike...probably everyone here?

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Ok ty I'm gonna go back to looking at isos

And I mean, the entire day. this one was her last post before Cape came in and voted.

But then, the moment the votes landedSubject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Thank Charl for me not voting Math tbh lock cleared that slot on a reread

Turns out in the 3 hours between these two posts, Maria read the exact things she needed to have read in order to be 100% sure she had the right answer, that she had been missing during all of her rereading in the 4 full days that they were crossed.

-----

No.

I think that she was just hoping that Cape would vote math. Looking like she was still solving, waiting for Cape to vote wrong. Even did some little bits of encouragement there too

Spoiler:

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Out of literally everyone Enchant, I have been the only person that has voiced a lean towards Math and not you

You can try to convince me on why it's Math/Luke and not Enchant/Luke sure.

I think the main reason it isn't is because they have the same claim tbh

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Cape do you still think it's Math here?

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

I think these last few pages are turning me around a tad.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

From my perspective, if Enchant is mafia, then someone is quite literally bussing between the 2 of Maria/Luke

Yeah the Luke Math double team is seriously giving me pause

Yes, I know she also made posts calling Enchant scum, but that is basically my point.

-----

And yet, the whole time that she is fence sitting, she is calling me scummy for wanting to make sure that me and cape agree before either of us votes.


----


Also,
Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

I don't believe you for a single but we'll reach that bridge when we cross it.

Don't know why Luke isn't freaking out when they've said they wanna vote Enchant and Cape wants to vote Math making me conf town

This post bothered me when it happened, but again. It just does not make any sense as a thought town!her would have here.

At the time of writing this, she is saying that she thinks it is me+enchant.

So, in that perspective of the game, why would she expect me to be freaking out if Cape is considering voting Math? That is literally a win for a Luke+Enchant team.

However, from if she is scum with enchant here, then cape voting math is a lose state for me. I think that she was genuinely surprised that I was not more bothered by cape considering voting math, because she knew that it was a loss for me, and this is just a perspective slip given her constantly presented certainty that I am scum.

[Lukewarm]

I am realizing that maybe I should have also considered doing a town case on myself?

I did not do that over the night.

idk if self town cases mean all that much, but If you think it will help you at all Cape, I can try to do one?

If so, it might be a bit. I have a busy day tomorrow, so if I am going to do one, it probably wont happen until super late tomorrow, or monday at the latest.

Same goes for if you have any questions for me.

I have chemo monday morning, so I will just be sitting in a chair on my laptop for several hours then for sure anyways

[Lukewarm]

a hole that bothers me in the case against Maria. Maria seems like they have absolutely no incentive to kill Toog based on what you pulled up unless I am mistaken. So am I mistaken? I assume Enchant has had to have been uncaring of who they kill at night?

Toog did not die until day 6, when we were going into ELO. At the time, Toog's only stated scum reads were Titus, Maria, and Enchant -- and Titus just flipped town.

BCG pushes heavily that one of Frog, Gamma, or Maria is scum. He starts off with one of Frog or Maria, then adds Gamma down the line.

He eventually stops pushing Maria and says she might be town between Frog and her. His bottom 4 the becomes Frog, Cape, Malcolm, and Gamma, with Pooky fifth from bottom and Sir Rhett below them all, though not ranked.

Eventually he calls Cape town after Cape spends a lot of Day 1 pushing BCG.

I think I might be wrong on Maria. I am now leaning Titus + Enchant after BCG's iso followed by the events of Day 4.

UNVOTE:

a

I might be wrong on Enchant also. I think Titus is the right choice today though.

Additionally, Toog declared you lock town.

There were plenty of reasons for the Mariar+Enchant scum team to not want Toog in Elo.

[Lukewarm]

another another thing,

Luke, so did you like... check me at all the night you evaluated Maria?

I am sure if you are mafia, you found it way easier to push Maria then myself, though Enchant did practically spew me anyways last day with me being their top townread for... reasons they "couldn't remember" or whatever.

Yeah. I considered you and math both.

My basic thoughts were that Enchant and Math never cross vote there and that math and enchant don't make much sense to both be scum voyeurs

and

If you were scum I really don't think that Toog dies going into 5p Elo. Like, I could see you being hesitant to take him into 3p elo with you, one the basis that he would be paranoid why he was not killed in a you+toog+X ep elo scenario, if X was scum, but the night before 5p elo, there was not really that incentive / worry. And then I did not think that if you were scum, that you would have played 5p ELO the way that you did, starting with leaning towards it being Math, but then voting Enchant while Maria was still on the fence.

and

Maria looked to me like the way she was playing 5p Elo the way she would as scum. Pretending to be unsure and needing to reread to avoid voting, encouraging your lean on it being Math, while also consistently saying that I was the last scum when ever she got a chance . (not voting)+(encouraging your math read) could have won her in 5p ELO, and her play around me looked motivated to win 3p elo if Enchant flpped in 5p.


So, I started casing Maria from there.

[Lukewarm]

And yet, the whole time that she is fence sitting, she is calling me scummy for wanting to make sure that me and cape agree before either of us votes.

i looked at what you pulled up, didn't look like fence sitting to me

I mean... she:

-appeared to be actively using "I need to read more to be sure what is the right answer" as a reason to not vote yet
-while asking you to explain your math preference and
-making comments about thinking it could possibly be math.

maybe "fence sitting" is an over simplification of it, because yes, she said that she had a preference on Enchant, but she was never "ready" to lock in that vote. And her asking you to explain why you thought it was Math>Enchant looked like she was hoping you could give her a good excuse to switch.

[Lukewarm]

Not alienating either of Math or Cape by calling them scum,

and only needs one of them to vote me to win

.

the what?

This was before the enchant/math cross, and she seemed to be playing towards getting a win in 5p with getting me voted.

I was looking at potential scum teams, and this approach made the most sense if she was partnered with Enchant.

Calling her buddy scummy (enchant), but calling for a vote on a townie(me), reaching out to both other townies calling them town (you and math), and encouraging them to vote me

Like, she did not want to risk alienating either of you away from voting me by calling either of you potentially scum there.

[Lukewarm]

the way Luke just insta voted today really bothers me

My thoughts over night were that the way we lost Elo today was if you voted me, and your vote timing with Enchant was pretty sudden when it happened. but I thought that if I voted maria first, you would be more careful with a hammer vote then with a "I am going to enter into a cross vote" vote, so I needed to enter a cross early.

[Lukewarm]

I am leaning someone right now over the other, I will keep it to myself for now. Just in general.

It's interesting how Luke didn't use probably one of his greatest ammunitions

Luke lock wolf btw said they'd vote whole day and never did keep that in mind

Like this quote was made when Enchant was voted within the span of like, I guess it was half an hour but Luke simply just was not there, not to mention he could have been planning to vote not then but later on wanting to be the one to make the first move, but I just kinda unannounced voted Enchant.

What I am gatting at is I could see the argument that Maria over here is making an argument with flawed logic and in bad faith. Though idk it's that scummy

I...

Know that at some point when I was typing out the "Day 6" post I put to words "Maria was constatntly popping in to find a way to say that I was scum, which felt like she was setting that up for 3p elo" but I guess it got editted out at some point lol

I did not grab this quote in particular, or any quotes, because it seemed like it it was a lot of quotes.

One thing Luke didn't address specifically when responding to me was this comment I made

I am sure if you are mafia, you found it way easier to push Maria then myself

Which is true because of how Maria has treated me as town this whole time as well as MathBlade ever since yesterday at least, but Maria has had me in the at least null-town pile all game but the townread on me got stronger

I did not realize that it needed a response tbh.

Like, yes? If I were scum, it would have just been easier to push Maria here

But really:

"Is luke pushing maria because he is town who felt confident that Math and Cape were town, and landed on Maria being scum"
and
"Is luke pushing maria because he is scum, and he felt like Maria was the easier push"

Boil down to, is luke scum or town here.

[Lukewarm]

My basic thoughts were that Enchant and Math never cross vote there and that math and enchant don't make much sense to both be scum voyeurs

and

If you were scum I really don't think that Toog dies going into 5p Elo. Like, I could see you being hesitant to take him into 3p elo with you, one the basis that he would be paranoid why he was not killed in a you+toog+X ep elo scenario, if X was scum, but the night before 5p elo, there was not really that incentive / worry. And then I did not think that if you were scum, that you would have played 5p ELO the way that you did, starting with leaning towards it being Math, but then voting Enchant while Maria was still on the fence.

and

Maria looked to me like the way she was playing 5p Elo the way she would as scum. Pretending to be unsure and needing to reread to avoid voting, encouraging your lean on it being Math, while also consistently saying that I was the last scum when ever she got a chance . (not voting)+(encouraging your math read) could have won her in 5p ELO, and her play around me looked motivated to win 3p elo if Enchant flpped in 5p.

This was my process on how I shored up my confidence that it was Maria, so this is probably my best response to that point tbh. Just showing you how I got there.

[Lukewarm]

I think one of the biggest reasons I'm a villager has to be look at flipped wolves.

Save: Went for me D1 Just look at that.

Nero: Forced intent on me and tried to go for me
Pooky: I am the reason this slot went over and pushed it all game.
Voted Johny
Enchant was susing me too.
BGC pocketed me D1

Kind of sneaky slipping my slot into the "flipped wolves" part of your post lmao.

[Lukewarm]

I won't even get into how Luke used the Toog nk to spring his agenda I want to point out how...strange these posts are.

Spoiler:

Pedit: Enchant, why are you fucking voting already in Elo?

Please unvote

At least give everyone time to check in, give there solves, ect.

Like, even if you are sure that Math is scum, you have to also make sure that his partner is found for 3p elo

Jesus fucking christ. I am going to walk away, and if the game is still here when I come back I will sort through the two of them

pedit: thank you

I'm like pretty sure it's Luke/Enchant and I'm prob voting Luke today

@Cape
@Math

Ready to listen and vote the wolves just lmk

I was already leaning Maria as one of the two based on the Toog scum read there and because I was town reading both Math and Enchant before Elo started.

And this feels like Maria+Enchant to me.

Not alienating either of Math or Cape by calling them scum, and only needs one of them to vote me to win.

Now, do keep in mind these posts are all basically after each other, right? Do you see how odd and out of place this level of anger is? Because it's entirely fake, it was just an excuse to try and have some performative partner interactions. Sure, if Luke thought maybe Enchant was a villager?

But, Luke was the most confident person coming into the thread, and even posting in the quotes above that Enchant was a lock wolf, so why are you getting this upset over a wolf voting?

Cape, Maria's arguements are just made up.

Her "best point" against me being scum, is that at the start of day 6, I was upset with Enchant's vote, despite being already being at "enchant was a lock wolf"

But she is spinning my thoughts into something that it was not. I was not really sure that Enchant was scum until like 3496.

She is claiming that I was "locked" in on Enchant scum both before and after these posts about the early hammer are fake, but she is willfully ignoring where I sat down and sorted between Math and Enchant much later after this. Because it does not help her sway you...

Spoiler:

Also, hi.

I am going to try and put in some time tonight, instead of tomorrow

Do we know for sure that Chungus is Koba? I think I saw someone say that Chungus is Koba

Doing a search, I see lots of people say that he was, but he never confirms it. But he also never denied it, and he did deny being Drapion

Enchant is kinda just like the other games I have played with Enchant so I do not know how to actually read that slot at all

Counterpoint this other game Enchant has been a part of which contradicts everything I just said: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88671

VOTE: Enchant

Easiest mafia game of my life

anyone who claims they can accurately read enchant is a liar, especially while trying to hamfist meta into the read. that being said i have the slot in PoE and could even feasibly be paired with frog/gamma

I am asking this, because Koba has previously told me to "Get Gud" when I said something along the lines of "Enchant is hard to read"

So, this is not a think that Koba actually thinks about Enchant. And he is using a false statement his own thoughts on Enchant to soft defend enchant from Cape here.

JohnnyFarrar Big Chungus Gaming, Crescent
PookyTheMagicalBear

Enchant Nero
Math, and Charloux


Pooky:
The first time Enchant shows up on Pooky's iso is here

I'm going to sleep on this.

I'd love your thoughts on where we should go Pooky.

I'm happy to kill anyone on this list:

marci
Enchant
MT

BCG

But this is after Pooky had several votes, including BCG, and was the leading wagon at the time. He had not voiced a scum read on Enchant prior to being put in that position. Nero's name does not exist in pooky's iso

He also... doesn't vote anyone on this list here. He is still on frog. A couple pages latter he votes BCG.

So, clearly he was not actually trying to push through a wagon on any of these names. I think I can see him putting 2 partners here.

hmmm... going through each scum looking at enchant's name, and I felt good about it still with chungus and math.

But this johnny stuff feels to me like he is awkwardly trying to figure out if he really does have a guilty on him or not...

Spoiler:

Hello! Who wants to catch me up on gamestate?

I am Cop with guilty on you.

I found scum already! Hot shit

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Wait is Enchant serious then? Why does Mal have votes?

I have 1 shot

Mal has votes because Mal didn’t play the way scum Titus expected

So he’s getting run up as a VT.

I meant if Enchant was claiming a guilty on me I'd expect a lot more votes in my direction. Or better yet, votes in Enchant's direction since I'm not actually guilty

[/sp/oiler]

And like, clearly Johnny did not really know the role lay out of the game yet since he messed up his own claim for how many shots he had.

I get nothing from chungus wrt to math

Pooky feels to me like he is trying to play around Math in a way to keep Math from attacking him, not like he is his partner Especially the detail he threw in to town read math here does not feel like a partner read

mathblade repped in at page 55 and proceeded to spam up half the posts from 55->59 and its mostly nonsense therefore he's town;

like look at this gem of a post:

VOTE: Cape90

VOTE: Crescent

Pooky is nagl with 0 posts from Cape/Crescent in between

Toog seems to be following his d1 promise, so null on Toog

Pooky is being anti Pooky so nagl but I am not sure if it’s because I don’t understand Pooky

saying its not a good look for me to move my vote from Cape to Crescent.

When Crescent has like 2 posts atp and I literally explained why I voted for Crescent, but instead of reading my iso to figure out why I voted for Crescent dude only look at "what did Cape or Crescent do in between Pooky's votes?"

That is a thought process and it's a very literal one, it's a "nothing happened therefore Pooky shouldn't change his vote thus SUSP"

it ignores the fact that the obvious explanation is I didn't notice Crescent was AWOL until I voted for her because I'm not aware of everything.

Like I can see him going through that thought process and going hmmm this is shady what is going on.

whereas if he's scum I don't think he plays it that way because its just dumb and is asking me to pay attention to him and he mostly doesn't want me to do that when he's scum because he thinks I can read him close to perfectly.

It is also just hard for me to think that Math scum would have never... just, relented in Titus's attempt to kill me.

Especially yesterDay, when letting Titus get a miselim on me walks into Elo with Titus able to potentially be eliminated in either 5p elo or 3p elo because of it.

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

I see many letters, but can i get TL/DR why you don't believe me?

I mean, my points were basically:

~Chungus soft defended you

~Pooky avoided commenting on you at all until he was in danger of elimination

~Pooky looks not partnered with Math.

~Math could have let Titus elim me at some point.

[Lukewarm]

Her next point is acting like it is somehow scummier:

-That I worked through math and enchant, but scouring through their isos, landed on it being enchant, cased out why, and then asked you to read and respond before we voted.

vs

- That she said she thought it was enchant, but was open to you convincing her that it was math, and then just kept making comments about back reading to avoid committing to a vote.

[Lukewarm]

Okay. The promised self town case. It is weird to do this starting from nothing, so cape if you have any pointed questions throw them at me. For now, I am just kind of pointing at my positioning around flipped scum BCG/Johnny/Enchant

When I repped in, if I was scum, then I had a fresh slate on where I was going to land with my reads.

I ended with this as my scum leans (were unsorted at the time btw)

scum lean
MalcolmTucker
Cape90
Titus
Big Chungus Gaming

And then I ended up voting BCG

wild nobodies doing shit

clearly scum comfy

Yeah, this game seems kinda dead.

I'm down to vote out either of Malcolm or Chungus atm

VOTE: Chungus

This is the one Not_Mafia wants, right?

Like, if I am scum, and I rep in, and have a fresh slate on scum reads, I just... don't build up to a vote on Chungus?

Math was casing Marci, and I could have just... gone there
Toog was saying to go MariaR, and I could have just... gone there

Instead, I had Marci and Maria on the town side of null...

This is especially true since BCG had had a wagon just dissipate off of him.

Spoiler: build up to 4 votes

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

Scum repalce out

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

VOTE: BCG

Working with my TRs

VOTE: BCG

Spoiler: fall down to 1

UNVOTE:

NM, let's look elsewhere.

I am a VT, so I don't have e shots.

I replaced std not chungus

math seems to think 54667776567 invests can co exist but 2 protectives cant
i think is why he has poe of either me or chungus

but i tr xhungus T_T i dont think they were playing me like a violin at all..

Correct. I do.

You say it is like hyperbole. I think scum would have had some sort of defense against a multi shot disloyal vig.

UNVOTE:

Bahhh

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

There is no reason for me to just... re introduce the wagon on my partner here.

-----

So my first vote day 3 was BCG, but then also only vote on Day 4 was on Johnny. I don't feel like I am prone to bussing, if anything, I would rather a partner go the distance then me doing it, I just... would not bus this slot so hard.


-----

And, similarly in 5p ELO.

I both, would not have had him vote Math for the "partner interaction" like Maria is claiming I did, but also, once the cross happened, I would have fought for it to be Math. Like, bet the game on 5p elo, instead of me going to 3p elo alone. I was not exactly town read enough to think that I could win 3p ELO.

Here is a post from a scum chat I played in Subject: Mewbie 2094 [Mafia]

I know that goodmornining literally just died, and that I have not even made it to a day phase going it alone yet, but being solo scum is already a crushing loneliness omg

I would not want this for me lmao.

-----

Finally, I think that I would have just killed you Cape, instead of Math.

Math already thought that it was Maria, and at that point all I would have had to do is argue "Math, Maria is trying to WIFOM you into voting wrong by bringing you to ELO"

That seems like the path of least resistence, then coming in with you being the decider given you have scum read me off and on all game.

[Lukewarm]

You know, I'll throw you a bone here, let's use your gross over simplification of what happened here even though that wasn't the case and you can easily use context clues to see what did happen. If I wanted to see if Cape would switch I just don't need to bring up Math at all, I'm self-aware enough to know as a wolf how my posts will look in the thread, you don't just put a very basic "omg hey what do you think of this player" that's scum textbook 101. The only time I ever said it could be Math was that I "paused" at the gang up but besides that? Always Enchant.

I think that asking a player to explain their incorrect read is a used tactic to get that player to start thinking it more strongly, yes.

Out of literally everyone Enchant, I have been the only person that has voiced a lean towards Math and not you

You can try to convince me on why it's Math/Luke and not Enchant/Luke sure.

where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

[Lukewarm]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

You cannot think of a valid reason for why you were sitting there doing nothing when you claimed to be the most confident player*

I'm telling you guys scumhunting 101 if their actions do not line up with their words it's probably one of the most obvious wolf bus tactics in the world I use it to catch so many wolves. See, I can have a good villager game woooo

My actions were:

"trying to convince Cape it was enchant"

You are the one trying to say that the only action that mattered was casting the vote. Which, yes. If we were not in elo, but were confirmed there was scum between enchant/math I would have voted enchant there. But we were in ELO

[Lukewarm]

"wanting to be on the same page with other townies before voting in elo"

is just... something that seems fairly straight forward.

Cape, if you actually want me to respond more to this I will. I feel like I can fairly reasonably prove that that is something that I think about games. I had a past game in a guardians set up, where I was in Elo with me+Dunn+unwnd. Out side of that was an IC ffery who could not vote in the ELO.

I was REALLY sure that it was unwnd. Cased him multiple times, engaged in repeated back and forths with her on it. Because she did not agree with me, and she thought it was Dunn. I was not willing to vote Unwnd until ffery and I agreed.

I eventually gave up on convincing her, and voted Dunn, because working with her was more important to me then just... voting my scum read in ELO

[Lukewarm]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

You are just speaking into existence the idea that a townie would never hold off voting in ELO when they think that they have the answer just to get on the same page with another townie.

I responded by saying that that... is just how I approach games.

And you came back with "nuh, uh, a townie would never"

[Lukewarm]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

These are your

only

posts in regard talking to Cape about trying to "convince" anyone and your case itself

Ah yes. Lets just cut off all of the case, to reframe it how you want.

Do we know for sure that Chungus is Koba? I think I saw someone say that Chungus is Koba

Enchant is kinda just like the other games I have played with Enchant so I do not know how to actually read that slot at all

Counterpoint this other game Enchant has been a part of which contradicts everything I just said: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88671

VOTE: Enchant

Easiest mafia game of my life

anyone who claims they can accurately read enchant is a liar, especially while trying to hamfist meta into the read. that being said i have the slot in PoE and could even feasibly be paired with frog/gamma

I am asking this, because Koba has previously told me to "Get Gud" when I said something along the lines of "Enchant is hard to read"

So, this is not a think that Koba actually thinks about Enchant. And he is using a false statement his own thoughts on Enchant to soft defend enchant from Cape here.

JohnnyFarrar Big Chungus Gaming, Crescent
PookyTheMagicalBear

Enchant Nero
Math, and Charloux


Pooky:
The first time Enchant shows up on Pooky's iso is here

I'm going to sleep on this.

I'd love your thoughts on where we should go Pooky.

I'm happy to kill anyone on this list:

marci
Enchant
MT

BCG

But this is after Pooky had several votes, including BCG, and was the leading wagon at the time. He had not voiced a scum read on Enchant prior to being put in that position. Nero's name does not exist in pooky's iso

He also... doesn't vote anyone on this list here. He is still on frog. A couple pages latter he votes BCG.

So, clearly he was not actually trying to push through a wagon on any of these names. I think I can see him putting 2 partners here.

I get nothing from chungus wrt to math

Pooky feels to me like he is trying to play around Math in a way to keep Math from attacking him, not like he is his partner Especially the detail he threw in to town read math here does not feel like a partner read

mathblade repped in at page 55 and proceeded to spam up half the posts from 55->59 and its mostly nonsense therefore he's town;

like look at this gem of a post:

VOTE: Cape90

VOTE: Crescent

Pooky is nagl with 0 posts from Cape/Crescent in between

Toog seems to be following his d1 promise, so null on Toog

Pooky is being anti Pooky so nagl but I am not sure if it’s because I don’t understand Pooky

saying its not a good look for me to move my vote from Cape to Crescent.

When Crescent has like 2 posts atp and I literally explained why I voted for Crescent, but instead of reading my iso to figure out why I voted for Crescent dude only look at "what did Cape or Crescent do in between Pooky's votes?"

That is a thought process and it's a very literal one, it's a "nothing happened therefore Pooky shouldn't change his vote thus SUSP"

it ignores the fact that the obvious explanation is I didn't notice Crescent was AWOL until I voted for her because I'm not aware of everything.

Like I can see him going through that thought process and going hmmm this is shady what is going on.

whereas if he's scum I don't think he plays it that way because its just dumb and is asking me to pay attention to him and he mostly doesn't want me to do that when he's scum because he thinks I can read him close to perfectly.

It is also just hard for me to think that Math scum would have never... just, relented in Titus's attempt to kill me.

Especially yesterDay, when letting Titus get a miselim on me walks into Elo with Titus able to potentially be eliminated in either 5p elo or 3p elo because of it.

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

[Lukewarm]

I am going to go back and respond to Maria's counter points to my original case

[Lukewarm]

The thing that stands out to me, is that at the start of day, Toog was her biggest scum read based on her entrance, and when those votes piled up Toog was one of them. Like, yes, I know that NM and Math were there too, but she is not responding at all to the fact that her biggest scum read just naked voted onto this quick forming wagon.

This is compounded when you look at her leaving the BCG wagon. When she leaves, NM is still there calling the slot scum, and if she was there just to sheep conf town NM, then why does she leave to be The First Vote on a new wagon? Or was she sheeping Math, who was only there to sheep NM and Toog?

Let's focus on this given the rest is just needless fluff. I do not care where my scumreads vote, I've already made this clear. Wolves bus, wolves can vote partners like they have this game. If you just didn't vote where your big scumread was going...well you wouldn't win games. If I vote with my scumreads and someone flips scum I need to relook at the game, it's why I relooked frog and then they died. But if they flip villager, hey I was probably right. I never take into account where my scumread is voting unless it's maybe 2/3 wolves all on one wagon but that's an extreme case.

Do not act like this doesn't happen, because you know it does. I had the best reads in this game and they adapted you're not showing what action I took as a wolf, you're just trying to point out faults but hey kudos I guess.

This is a nothing response.

My point is that when you look at her reads [STD, Malcolm, Toog scum] it does not make sense that she is suddenly jumping on and then back off of the BCG wagon there.

BCG was not in her scum pile.

But she voted.

So then I looked to see if she was maybe just sheeping. But she scum read Toog. So does not look like she was sheeping Toog. She left the wagon while NM was still on it. So does not look like she was sheeping NM. And Math was only there to sheep Toog/NM..

So, looking at it, it did not make sense to me that, given her reads at the time, for her vote to have moved the way that it did.

But conversely, I could see the scum!motivation to both joining the wagon and leaving the wagon.

So I thought it made her more likely to be scum.

Her response to this was: I don't care if Toog was also voting there.

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

[Lukewarm]

Side note:

The Toog read

As soon as Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately had Toog as his scum partner

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

If toog is mafia, I am just suspecting people that don't try day 1 only to actually become helpful day 2. Happened with Pooky after all. Not interested in exploring that until later

You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia? Gasp.

But the issue that I have here, is that is makes this feel like it was fake nuance

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Do you think Toog and Frog are both bussing Pooky?

Maybe, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be.

I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is but meh.

Pooky is a follower claim, if they went over it wouldn't be the end of the world.
What part of my reads don't match my play?

The fact that the moment Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately went to Toog as a super obvious partner, makes it obvious that she never actually thought this in 2193.

"I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is"

and

"You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia?"

Are like, intrinsically opposite thoughts.

X being true is

unlikely because of reason Y

, but could be possible
X being true is

very likely because of reason Y

You mean...reads can't change? Wow.

But yes, if you look at Toogs entire iso he just gave people his vote. And sheeped Pooky my biggest wolfclaim and voted me. Of course I'm gonna call that wofly. Do you notice the moment Toog started posting more then one sentence and played the game I called him a villager cause he started trying, strange how that works

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information. Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

if you look at Toogs entire iso he just gave people his vote. And sheeped Pooky my biggest wolfclaim and voted me. Of course I'm gonna call that wofly.

My whole point was that all of this was true at the time that she wrote that they were unlikely to partnered. So, it is hard to look at it and think that she thought both things were true, and was actually just making up nuance as she wrote the earlier post.

[Lukewarm]

I've proven multiple times you weren't doing that, you were just buying time and not even doing what you're trying to die on a hill doing.

Cape, if you actually care about this let me know. But it feels like Maria is just going to say how scummy it is not matter what, and engaging with her on it is pointless.

[Lukewarm]

engaging with her on it is pointless.

I have no counterpoint because of how obvious it is there are holes in my argument so Cape come save me. FTFY. <3

More like

She is confirmed scum making an argument that she appears intent on doubling down on, so going back and forth with her more here seems pointless unless cape actually finds this in any way compelling.

Nice try tho.

[Lukewarm]

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time? Like, I vote for information and BCG was a big hot topic, I didn't mind voting there regardless of who was on the wagon. You know for a fact this isn't as damning as you're trying to make it out to be.

Cape, I think that this is the line that really shows she is just deflecting, and not actually engaging.

Like... trying to frame it as why are you saying it is "impossible for reads to change and develop over time?" instead of... saying that her read changed, or why. And if her read did change, then why she moved off of it.

She is not actually explaining her actions here, she is *just* deflecting/discreditting the accusation. Like is she actually even saying that her reads swayed, or is she saying "why is Luke not considering that?"

The reason why I was not sitting there thinking "maybe her reads swayed bettween these two points" is because I was looking at her iso, and these three things are literally back to back in there.

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Ngl I started TRing Frog but just didn't say anything cause I wanted people to think I'd push them. Unlucky that they died but that makes me think someone's role would out them as a wolf.

Think I'm voting in Save/MT/Too

Time for wait for results woo

VOTE: BCG

I have arrived

Hey Marci, want to break down the game for me?

People think the game is solved wooo (B

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Her vote outside of her scum pool came right after she named that scum pool, and she never said one word about BCG the entire time that she was on the wagon, nor when she left.

"Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?"

Why would I ever think that this momentum was related to reads given the way she did it?

[Lukewarm]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

I don't normally drink a lot of water on the morning of my chemo day just because they give me so much saline during that anyways, but thanks for the concern I guess lol

How has your water intake been? lol

[Lukewarm]

Your biggest selling point to this Maria wolf world is that I used the same logic in two opposite worlds...that is it?

We look at your other points: Toog died: Hey look you used the same argument for Math.

Me not voting was scummy: Hey look you did the same thing but even worse because you had no reason not to vote.

You have meta that proves you wouldn't: Hey look so do I

Every single argument point you've tried to use against me you can also apply to yourself, which if I was a villager in your shoes would make me pause and go "hm maybe I'm wrong" and not auto vote at daystart.
Also doesn't explain your fake anger that outright is an entire shift in your personality we've seen this game that's glaringly fake. Along with the fake confidence.

It's just that obvious tbh.

1) this feels like a gross oversimplification / misrep of the things that I have said

But

2) Just because I got to the thread already at the point of "betting the game on Maria being scum" does not mean that I did not think about the other possibilities.

I have already kind of explained why I thought Math and Cape were town.

And your constant play calling me scum over and over sure did not help me think you could be town, when I was looking at you, but I did not really want to build that into the case because it seemed like my own omgus at you would not be very convincing to Cape. But I was comparing that to Cape, who did seem to genuinely go back and forth and have thoughts on me, and Math who consistently had me as town. It was hard not to land on you being the one with a scum agenda there.

But also, are you really arguing right here, that if I were town, I would be unsure between you and cape? Because that feels like the argument that you are making?

[Lukewarm]

What exactly am I supposed to be engaging with here? You're nitpicking my word choice. My word choice when you know they mean the same thing. Like, don't get me wrong I understand you need to push something here but you're trying to make a big deal over my word choice out of all things?

I think that if you were town, watching scum say that your vote moved without reason your response (for the benefit of cape) would have focused on: This is why I voted BCG there, and this is why I moved my vote when I did. Because, if you were town, you would know that you had a town process that got you to do both things.

Instead you focused on framing it like I was being unreasonable to even question it.

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?

This is the line I am talking about. It was your opening response, and I don't think even makes sense. Because you... don't even go on to say that your read changed. So this is a throw away line just to attack me here.

[Lukewarm]

You come into the dayphase and not rethink at all or ask questions you just snap vote but...where was that confidence with Enchant? If you really were a confident villager like you were claiming the whole time you would've insta voted Enchant, but you only do that here

There... is a difference between the two situations...

Me voting in 5p elo and me voting in 3p elo have different effects on the game state.

But you don't actually care about that.

[Lukewarm]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

Okay you are describing literally what Maria had been saying about herself lmao

It feels like I see the difference, but am not doing a great job explaining.

She looked to me like she was just making excuses to say she was not ready to vote.

I was trying to work with you.

Maybe it is only a distinction that exists because I was piloting my slot, but her play looked like a strategic choice to me.

Espeically given this post.

Ok ty I'm gonna go back to looking at isos

Was her last post before you voted Enchant, and she was at "Oh, I still need to reread more"

But then as soon as the hammer happened, she was actually "lock cleared" math's slot.

Thank Charl for me not voting Math tbh lock cleared that slot on a reread

[Lukewarm]

Her response to this was: I don't care if Toog was also voting there.

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

usually i don't even notice these things when im hopping around wagons

... what?

She stated her top 3 scum reads.
Then joined a wagon that was not one of those 3 scum reads.
Then left that wagon once it started dissipating.
Just to go back to voting one of the 3 scum reads from her Start of Day list.


"Her vote did not look like it moved based on her reads, and instead moved based on how she needed to be positioned wrt a wagon on her partner"

Was my point in 3641

But it feels like the point got lost, because the conversation got turned towards her voting or not voting with Toog. Which was not actually what I was wanting to talk about. It was brought up as me already thinking about alternative reasons she might have voted outside her scum reads, and "maybe she was sheeping" was a thought, but I was stating why I did not think that that was the case. Like I go into: It does not look like she is sheeping NM or sheeping Toog or sheeping Math, based on her reads, and who made the argument to leave the wagon.

[Lukewarm]

"wanting to be on the same page with other townies before voting in elo"

is just... something that seems fairly straight forward.

Cape, if you actually want me to respond more to this I will. I feel like I can fairly reasonably prove that that is something that I think about games. I had a past game in a guardians set up, where I was in Elo with me+Dunn+unwnd. Out side of that was an IC ffery who could not vote in the ELO.

I was REALLY sure that it was unwnd. Cased him multiple times, engaged in repeated back and forths with her on it. Because she did not agree with me, and she thought it was Dunn. I was not willing to vote Unwnd until ffery and I agreed.

I eventually gave up on convincing her, and voted Dunn, because working with her was more important to me then just... voting my scum read in ELO

dunn flipped mafia?

if not and it was unwnd, you don't have a point here

No, Dunn flipped town and it was the losing vote for the game.

Not sure why that would change the point I made there.

[Lukewarm]

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information.

Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

This is just false. Like that's not how it works. You can look at the same information and come to a dif point depending on how you read something. Like, this isn't even a false point it is just an outright incorrect statement.

I agree, sometimes I need to read back and it changes things for me

wow

mind blown

I literally said that you could read it in a different light...

She did not have a new angle or anything. It is literally contradicting thoughts.

I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is but meh.

You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia? Gasp.

It is hard to read the first one and believe "2 people who vote together all the time and play similarly are obviously partners together" is a thing that she actually thinks about mafia players.
It is hard to read the second one and believe that "partners are unlikely to play super similarly" is a thing that she actually thinks about mafia players

So, seeing both of them, seeing her react to the same exact information, and landing on "this makes them less likely to be partners" and "this makes them obviously partners" makes it feels like she is not putting her Real Thoughts to the thread, in at least one of those posts

[Lukewarm]

Maria feels correct

But luke feels like the objectively correct play

...

[Lukewarm]

Cape

another another thing,

Luke, so did you like... check me at all the night you evaluated Maria?

I am sure if you are mafia, you found it way easier to push Maria then myself, though Enchant did practically spew me anyways last day with me being their top townread for... reasons they "couldn't remember" or whatever.

Yeah. I considered you and math both.

My basic thoughts were that Enchant and Math never cross vote there and that math and enchant don't make much sense to both be scum voyeurs

and

If you were scum I really don't think that Toog dies going into 5p Elo. Like, I could see you being hesitant to take him into 3p elo with you, one the basis that he would be paranoid why he was not killed in a you+toog+X ep elo scenario, if X was scum, but the night before 5p elo, there was not really that incentive / worry. And then I did not think that if you were scum, that you would have played 5p ELO the way that you did, starting with leaning towards it being Math, but then voting Enchant while Maria was still on the fence.

and

Maria looked to me like the way she was playing 5p Elo the way she would as scum. Pretending to be unsure and needing to reread to avoid voting, encouraging your lean on it being Math, while also consistently saying that I was the last scum when ever she got a chance . (not voting)+(encouraging your math read) could have won her in 5p ELO, and her play around me looked motivated to win 3p elo if Enchant flpped in 5p.


So, I started casing Maria from there.

the way Luke just insta voted today really bothers me

My thoughts over night were that the way we lost Elo today was if you voted me, and your vote timing with Enchant was pretty sudden when it happened. but I thought that if I voted maria first, you would be more careful with a hammer vote then with a "I am going to enter into a cross vote" vote, so I needed to enter a cross early.

This was my process on where I voted. I worked through who I thought it was, and I was worried that if I was not the first to vote you might consider being the one to do the cross vote. Maybe that was dumb of me, but I thought that casting the vote early was our best chance.

Maybe it was wrong to think that way about your play, but I landed on the right answer, so it is kind of hard to be to upset with myself for voting.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: MariaR

You can tell me I lost the game now -.-

WAIT I FUCKING WON?????

[Lukewarm]

I was so sure that this was a lost game omg

[Lukewarm]

That might not have been clear, I was scum.

Sorry.

I am happy for my self tho!

[Lukewarm]

That might not have been clear, I was scum.

Sorry.

I am happy for my self tho!

I was on like a 6 game losing streak as mafia prior to this, like omg

[Lukewarm]

Should have listened to Titus but I was having doubts

Having Titus 100% sure it was me and Math 100% sure it was Maria really helped me feel less worried about flipped slots reads sinking me

[Lukewarm]

gg wp Luke ^^

Yeah, you too !

You and Titus combined has me SWEATING. Like yall knew my slot was scum with no room to be swayed before I even got here, and I just had to deal with that lmao

[Lukewarm]

I almost guarantee that Luke is just kind of doing this to win.
Oh and I also don't like Luke's treatment of the Malcolm slot, especially with the passive comment of 2996 which feels like something Luke said out loud like "if i was town i would have done this but loltown". I feel like if Luke were actually town here, he would be the person to plan out.
So who is Luke's partner?
Very clearly Enchant, duh.

Cape, the heart attack I had the moment you made this post.

Like, I knew that I was never getting through to Maria, and you were my only hope. So seeing this made me want to give up right then and there.

[Lukewarm]

I would like to go through with some shouts outs:

Titus, you were so incredibly right on me. You felt like my biggest obstacle the entire game.

Maria, as I said before, you were right there with her on that. I basically had to just accept both of you were never seeing me as town, and plan around it

I enjoyed playing with everyone who was in this game after my rep in. I really appreciate how this game stayed pleasant, because that is not always the case.

But my biggest shout out goes to Enchant. You were a WONDERFUL scum partner this game. Your day play was the towniest I have ever seen you, even more so then in the games I have played with you when you were town. The play that you made where you coordinated your pr with Titus and math was genius. Your hammer-happy reputation was invaluable for us actually getting through this game, you looked townie, and you never gave up. Could not have asked for a better partner.

[Lukewarm]

That was the good things I had to say about the game. The players were all excellent.

However, I cannot fathom how this set up passed review

mafia 2-shot follower
mafia 1-shot loyal bodyguard
mafia night 3 voyeur
1x Goon

V

town novice disloyal vigilante
town fruit vendor
town voyeur
town novice joat (roleblocker, alien, tracker)
town rolecop
town 4-shot rolecop
town even-night combined doctor tracker
5x VTs

This is the most "fuck you scum team" set up I have ever personally seen in a game. The 2 shot follower was basically our only useful pr, with the night 3 voyeur being fairly useless, and the 1-shot loyal bodyguard was an actively harmful role.

If it the BG ever worked, we... still lost scum, and gave a guilty to the vig. If we holster, the loyal modifier means we are fucked if forced to coordinate with the voyeur.

and on the flip side, the town had a disloyal vigilante (which is possibly the strongest possible town PR?) + a doc + 5 invest type roles.


A Disloyal Vigilante existing, along side a protective, in a game where the scum team did not have any form or ways to influence (roleblock, jailkeeper, scum doc, strongman, SOMETHING) that is pretty messed up


And I kind of worry that since the scum team won, no one who approved this set up will even care to listen to the fact that this set up was bad for the scum team. But it was. We won DESPITE that, largely because town got so lost in the messed up mechanics of this game that they floundered for a few day phases.

This game makes me want to steer away from the Normal Queue so long as set ups like this are getting passed by review.

Anyways.

Rant over.

[Lukewarm]

before titus comes to roast MathBlade

lmao

[Lukewarm]

This is the most "fuck you scum team" set up I have ever personally seen in a game

Just to put more words to this. Because I cannot help myself.

There was no scum play around the super vigilante. It plus the existence of town a town protective is what really did it. I am aware that the protective was even night, but that does not matter, because once the scum realize there is a doc, they have to assume that the doc is going to be on the vig for ever, and can never target the vig until the doc dies. No way to know that it was even night

Also, 2 different (basically) full town role cop makes any and all fake claiming a death sentence, with no way for scum to know that in advance. Because, it turns out, by the end of the game, basically every slot will be role coped. And this could lead to a guilty even with seemingly "safe" fake claims, like just... not saying that your body guard effect was loyal because you don't want to be caught by voyeur coordination.

Scum had no counterplay for the super vigilante, were completely unable to fake claim with no way to know that, and basically all of their useful abilities locked into a single, 2 shot, role.

While town had a bajillion tprs.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

However, I cannot fathom how this set up passed review

in various places, i've talked about the difficulties in making a normal setup that doesn't, uh, suck. maybe more specifically i think it might be true that every investigative role makes the game worse. i try to come up with fun ways for them to exist in setups, because people seem to want to have them - i think there's an appeal to feeling like "we can catch most of the wolves and then maybe the investigative can spot us the hard one". but that's kind of a Cop out, like a way to prevent towns from having to deal with the fear of any particular person being really good as mafia. and i think they're also just a bummer.

what makes investigatives a bummer for mafia in particular is that the #1 thing you always have to do in order to play around them well, is to figure out who has what role without them telling you. imagine a setup that's just 13 vs 4 where everyone is vanilla except for one cop. i dont think anyone would claim to have a problem with that setup (on non-balance reasons - in practice you'd call it scumsided), but it also sucks a lot for scum. sometimes the cop stays alive for a long time and gets a lot of results, just on the basis that scum weren't able to pick the right person to shoot. a common idea is to give scum a roleblocker to "deal with" whatever role, but what it actually does is just let you pick a next-best choice for who is a PR, and so the exact same problem remains: how do you figure out who is a PR? in all my time modding i can't think of a single person that could do that convincingly (probably it has happened but it's more of an exception. it's not a skill that visibly and commonly exists in the way that e.g. finding scum is)

i kind of like having vigilantes, because they publicly show information that helps identify them. if NM hadnt claimed n2, mafia could be like: who the fuck would shoot pooky? although, i guess they'd be working from partial information given that they didn't know the vig was disloyal.

adding a roleblocker to this setup has this enjoyability issue, where it doesn't actually change the outcome of the vig's action most of the time. meaning, even if you do the impossible and correctly select the right person to roleblock, most of the time they will emerge saying "aha! i have cleared this person as town" and be accidentally correct. and then on the other hand when they do it correctly and the vig shoots scum, it sucks a lot for town, possibly even up to the point of making the rest of the game just moot because there's an incorrect inno. i think doctor has similar problems although it's sort of easier for scum to use at least. i think it's a flaw in the setup that there's some occasions where the vig claims and then there's the whole doctoring problem, although those will happen rather infrequently. but to me, roleblocker and doctor don't seem like the way to do it. i could do something where i tape over the cracks a bunch of times by making the vig macho (i think strongman is problematic) and then informing scum that the vig is macho, and then doing something to the doctor that prevents them from wasting their shot on the vig (because that sucks to do), and then adding a bunch of pointless informs to town so that it doesn't seem like a scum characteristic to have "informed" in your role, and then etc etc. but more realistically i think i just eliminate a bunch of options from my future setups, which makes them blander but i guess i don't mind that. disloyal in particular just seems like it sucks. i've advised against it in past reviews but i thought id try it this time. woops. of course, the fact that i'm saying this in general tips my hand as far as designing future setups and there might be a time that scum fakeclaims disloyal in one of them and somebody remembers "oh schadd didnt want to use disloyal anymore" and so maybe i have to say in my rules post that i dont use disloyal. well, maybe i will. i dont know.

there's a bunch of other little quibbles i could make regarding the minor PRs in the setup - i think the voyeur and the rolecops don't actually help town very much (and they probably accelerate the rate at which town roles get revealed to the public), and chungus correctly notes that they found a way to deal with the baggage from loyal bodyguard (at which point they get to bask in the status of having what sounds like a town role). as scum you probably shouldnt ever actually use it. this is all what i think anyway. i kind of persist in thinking this setup is fine for scum in a purely numbers way but idk how i'd get anyone else to think so & i wouldn't really aim to controvert someone wanting to stop playing normals (when theme setups suck, they're usually interesting at least). and i've spent far too long here anyway. i always read people's complaints about the setup and i think about them whenever i make a setup i think about the potential problems it has and how i can mitigate the complaints people had from the last game, and then i run it and there's a new cycle of complaints. thats how it feels anyway.

I think that just... not having the vigilante being disloyal would have been the first step to fixing this setup. I have not put a lot of thought into the disloyal modifier on the whole, but on the surface I feel like it can work on a role other then Vig, but you are super charging an already strong PR. Like a disloyal vig is a magnitude stronger then a cop imo. Your comments on the issues that something like a scum doc or a scum roleblocker would create would be completely moot if that modifier was not on the vig.

But IF you are going ot give something like that to town, you NEED to give scum SOMETHING.

i kind of persist in thinking this setup is fine for scum in a purely numbers way but idk how i'd get anyone else to think so

I disagree with this, and it feels like your numbers have a built in assumption that town will play their roles poorly, which is a bad assumption to build into balance imo.

But I am going to skip past the numbers, because firstly, I don't care to sit down and run them. But also the numbers are not the only thing that matter in a designing a game.

Me, enchant, Koba, and pooky have all told you that this set up felt bad to play as scum in. "But the numbers say its ~fine~" does not change that. This set up felt BAD to be scum in, and this is coming from someone who PREFERS to be scum. I don't normally feel that way when I roll scum.

This is a setup design which makes an entire faction feel like it is a poorly designed set up. In my opinion, it making the entire faction feel that way proves that it is true.

[Lukewarm]

This is another immediate first-ballot inductee into the NRG Hall of Fame. At some point we should just give up the ghost and play mafia the way god intended, spamming Mountainous and D&C/Coalition.

This definitely has changed some of how I play in the future for sure.

As for hall of fame I could see this for the scum team’s play (esp Luke) but for the setup no.

I think that she meant that sarcastically math lol

(See her conclusion that it would have been better to have just done mountainous)

[Lukewarm]

The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.

The argument is that it was townsided, and that scum just happened to win despite that.

So saying that town could have won "if people played mafia" does not counter that point lol

[Lukewarm]

@schadd_

Just wanted to apologize that I feel like I started my discussion about the design harsher then I should have. I was preemptively frustrated with the dismissal that I felt like I knew was coming, and that was included in that message when it should not have been.

I am going to try again, with a more concrete game design thought:

Scum should be able to punish town for claiming for no reason.

In this set up, the town novice disloyal vigilante could claim on day 2, and there is absolutely nothing that the scum team can do to punish that. They cannot stop the vigilante because they do not have any kind of role block / redirect. They cannot kill the vigilante, because the town has a doc while the scum team had no strong man. They cannot even try to outsmart the vigilante with a less direct action PR. They had nothing.

I think that it would be a benefit to the design process to ask "what can the scum team do if the most powerful town PR claims for no reason" and make sure that there is a satisfactory answer.

You can kind of extrapolate from my earlier point, that there are lots of different answers:
-NO town doc in the set up (so they can just kill)
-1-shot strong man (or more I guess, but a single shot fulfils this need)
-Role block (and variants like jailkeeper, alien or even the newer addition to the normal list, "shield" )
-Redirecter / busdriver
-or the weakest option, which is "now that you know who is targeting the PR, try to out guess them" with something like a scum doc or rolestopper


So there are plenty of different avenues to answer this question, and the answer is likely different based on many other factors surrounding the set up like:
-How much power does this give the scum team even if the claim does not happen
-What *is* the strongest role, because obviously a scum doc does not help if the strongest role is a cop for example
-What other design choices are in the game, like in this game "scum roles look good to a role cop" seemed to be a factor, so it might make sense to lean into an answer that looks good to a role cop, or possibly the fact that there was a lot of role doubling, so maybe it should be a role that was doubled with the town.

But, if the answer to the question ""what can the scum team do if the most powerful town PR claims for no reason" is "nothing," then the scum team *will* feel powerless, and I think that that is flaw that could be fixed in game designs moving forward.