Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[curiouskarmadog]

ok, it is down like James Brown..

busy atm, but will attack all 4 pages of the read this weekend.

[curiouskarmadog]

hmm,

unvote

, until I am able to read.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK reading the game, usually when I do this, I type it out while I read. Also post points that I think are important (at the time of reading).

Page 1.

I sort of like RI’s posting style. Lets see if it gets old. I don’t believe that he is not an alt.

These posts always stick out to me.

Hi everyone. I'm just checking in. No random vote here.

Why no random vote? Why did no one comment on this?

Mostly random votes on this page.

Page 2.

Sorry I haven't been here at all, I got caught up in real life.

I'm going to

vote: Radio Interference

because his posts are incredibly annoying.

Ok again this sticks out to me. He doesn’t want to random vote, but will vote someone because they are annoying, not because he thinks they are scum. Sounds like a random vote to me. Which leads me to believe his first post was trying to look town.

Occult asks for a deadline, some people thinks that could be scummy, some don’t. I myself don’t find people asking for a deadline too scummy when a game drags on and on…but on page 2?..hmmmm.

WLC calls Occult out on this (35) and votes him and Occult OMGUS votes him back (26)?…ugh.

JS replaces Xpom.

Amor agrees with Occult (FoSes Clone)

JS and RI attack Occult about having a stupid reason for voting clone….I hardly think Occult was being serious.

JS and Occult have conversation (argument?) over absolutely nothing (noted). I am on the fence about Occult at this point? Scum trying to get a quick lynch or Town trying to get conversation started?

Page 2 was hopping.
Page 3.

Vote count on the top of the Page 3 is incorrect. Listed both JS and Xpom being in the game.

Hmmm…

Yeah, Occult's vote was pretty much OMGUS, and in my mind much more suspicious than the deadline thing.

I'd really like to hear from some of the people who have been lurking, especially Boggzie, who is an IC but hasn't posted any content yet.

Boom, first real scummy thing this game. Amor thinks Occult’s vote was suspicious and OMGUS, but his post IMMEDIATELY after Occult’s post was agreeing with Occult and FoSes WLC. Not to mention, he never mentions that Occult being suspicious at that time. He only now, mentions it after people are attacking Occult.

And then there is

Hi, I'm replacing ZaneWasHere

It's my first game. Woohoo!

Now to business,
I think we need to go ahead and lynch someone, it works in favor for us. (or at least thats what the general idea tends to be).

I think Occult wasn't helping the town with his deadline suggestion. His posts seem a bit scummy to me, but its my first game, so maybe I'm wrong.

he also voted for Zanewashere, who I am now, so it's kind of pay back.

Vote: Occult

This vote does not count. You did not unvote first - Vel

Second scummy post of the game. Jumps on the Occult BW, admits he could be wrong and to OMGUS, doesn’t ask any questions, and plays the newbie card.

JS coaches BAB (54) but that is what ICs do in newbie games.

BAB lays down a “case” (newbie case) occult defends (immaturely). Poor taste dude to call a newbie “stupid”. BAB retorts and unvotes. Occult successfully bullies BAB (means nothing, just noting). LOL, now Occult feels good about BAB, wonder why?

Bog (me) gets heat for lurking. JS attacks, Senior Bandwagon ( I mean Occult) votes him. OH, now Amor, joins the suspicion train. Bog OMGUS votes Occult…jesus, newbie games…

BAB (73)mentions the newbie card again, but shows much understanding of the game (interesting).

Page 3 was pretty hot for a newbie game.

Page 4.

Page 4 vote still incorrect.

MOD, need to fix, JS is a replacement for Xpom

Thanks ckd, I missed where backinblack was voting for xpom - Vel

Bog flakes, asks for a replacement….if that is all that it takes, his career on this site will be short.

RI asks for some NEEDED prods (85)

Jesus Christ BAB pulls the newbie card again (88, 91)..we got it you’re a “newb”.

Blah Blah Blah, conversations about mafia theory and quick lynching.

(94) I replace in.

I find BAB’s questioning of Armor time in the newbie forum odd (98).

Page 5.

Vote count still wrong.

Ok, not much here..thoughts and questions coming..

[curiouskarmadog]

Questions questions…

Amor, why on page 2 did you agree with Occult and Fos WLC then say on page 3 that Occult looks suspicious because of his OMGUS vote on WLC? Why didn’t you mention that when you agreed with him on page 2?

JS, why is your vote still on RI?

BackinBlack (just going to call you Black), why is your vote still on JS?

Praetorian, why aren’t you posting? Why did you feel like it was impoart to ask where RI went when you have only posted here twice?

Mod what is the situation on him? has he picked up his prod

No he hasn't. I give 72 hrs for a player to pick up a prod, and today is it. I'll start looking for a replacement - Vel

Occult, if I meta you, will I find you voting hopping in all of your games Day 1? Why didn’t you ask for a retractable deadline on page 2? Your thoughts on Amor?

RI, what are your top two scum suspects at this point.

BAB, name three things you think are scum tells.

Clone, I would like to hear your comments on JS, Amor, RI…

[curiouskarmadog]

Thanks Occult, your thoughts on Amor's play page 2 and 3 (as I mentioned in my break down), since it directly relates to you, I was curious about your thoughts on it.

[curiouskarmadog]

BAB, an alt, is an experienced player who makes an "alt"ernate player to play under to try out different styles...I think RI is an experienced player and not indeed a newbie.

I am not going to attack your personal scum tell...I just want to know where you are coming from (for my reread) and for the future...of course there are others...

your thoughts on my break down of the game thus far?

[curiouskarmadog]

BAB, I am confused by your last post and I am not sure what you are trying to say.

I feel that you might have given me alot more focus than actions I did merited

What?

and you brought up an extremely strong case against Occult.

Did I? I don’t think I presented any type of case yet.
--------

JS, you attacked Occult much of Page 2…I can provide post numbers if you wish, but it is pretty obvious. Now this doesn’t really mean anything at this point…but I thought it was worth a note.
--------

RI, I thought your connections were interesting, and should be analyzed at a later date, but is slightly useless as this point. Also, when considering “connections” did you consider that people blatantly not mentioning or overlooking others as a connection as well?

---------
I have picked up some possible scum tells on 2-3 people. But this day is still young and I would like to wait on more of my questions being answered before voting or actually presenting a case.

[curiouskarmadog]

MOD, your vote count is STILL WRONG..Xpom is no longer in the game, what is the status on Preat, please respond to this post so I know you got it.

[curiouskarmadog]

[CKD]

How far along are you on your cases, or whatever you're working on? I'd like to see more then a quote and a paragraph from you on someone in the near future.

still waiting to see how a couple things pan out. Also, there are questions and prods (might have to PM the Mod, dont think he is following the thread)I am waiting for.

[curiouskarmadog]

MOD, your vote count is STILL WRONG..Xpom is no longer in the game, what is the status on Preat, please respond to this post so I know you got it.

Sorry ckd, I fixed it on pages 4 and 5, but I hadn't corrected it here. Preatorian hasn't picked up his prod and I'm looking for a replacement (I responded on page 5 in the posts you originally asked these questions, but that's a page ago, so I'm not surprised you didn't see it). - Vel

thanks Mod

[curiouskarmadog]

RI, I didnt understand what BAB said, that is why I said "what" and "strange comment" and "this sounds like". I wanted him to clarify. what is reaching about wanting him to clarify?

Yes, sometimes people do wave a newbie flag to cover up for mafia mistakes. Let me answer you question with a question, RI. Does it matter if he really is a newbie? Should being a newbie be used as a defense? Being a newbie doesnt mean he is town, it means he is new. he could be new town or new scum. I am not attacking him (yet?) for this, I am just making a note of it. For I can see a newbie town making some of the same comments. The jury is still out on BAB right now...I am leaning town, but that might change.

Cerb, thanks for joining.

[curiouskarmadog]

in the future, can we not list who we think is town. I realize your list was "least to most suspicious", but still it implies who you think is the most town...if everyone did this, I am sure one or two people would pop out as town on everyone's list, thus providing scum with a target Night 1....

I am however fine with top 2 or 3 scum lists (at this point in the game)...

this is a personal preference that I have developed playing the game...like to hear other IC's thoughts on this.

[curiouskarmadog]

Here is my response to recent posts:
CKD: I feel that you have been focusing alot on my comment about your outline of the game. I agree that saying that it sounds like I am "purposefully keeping your involvement low" is a huge stretch and a flagrant lie. +1 scummy points.

lol, did I say "you are purposefully keeping your involvement low" or did I say you comment "SOUNDS like you are purposefully keeping your involvement low"? One would be a direct statement the other is an opinion...do you really want to push the lie angle?

[curiouskarmadog]

also BAB did you read my post 151?..

[curiouskarmadog]

Woh I'm sorry. Must have missed your post, probably because it was wedged between two larger ones.

I can't find what your original post was (did it get deleted?) but for the like fifth time, I thought that wrote more about me than I would have. Maybe I've been more involved in this game than I thought. I have a habit of under-estimating myself.

CKD this is the third time I'm asking. I want you to put what you consider 3 scum tells to be.

What is with the comment "like the fifth time"...I am not asking you about it again...you called me a liar, and I was defending myself. It really is beginning to feel like you are trying to spin anything i say or do into something scummy, why is that?

EVERYTHING CAN BE A SCUM TELL IN CONTEXT AND GIVEN A PLAYER. One trait that might not be a scum tell for one, could be for another....

Examples:

Lurking...
Pushing bad logic or assumptions as facts...
actions not matching words...

[curiouskarmadog]

How was my answer vague? I was VERY specific with my examples MORE SO than you even. And you havent really answered my last question...you continually misread (or completely miss) posts...at first I thought maybe you are excitable, but now I am wondering again. The more I ask you questions or wonder why, the more you try to OMGUS and try to spin a case against me. you are trying to take everything I say and spin it scum..problem is you are really NOT READING my post and have to backtrack a lot.

I assume your "evidence" is a case. Look forward to reading it. I have not contradicted myself once

[curiouskarmadog]

But if there's a doctor role in town, you could use the reverse argumentation, then it'd be good to know who to prevent.

I would love to see someone argue the point. 1.) A good doc should know who to protect and shouldnt have to be guide to protect anyone. 2.) there is no guarantee we have a doc. Town lists only really help scum in the end.

Official Vote Count

JimSauce - 1 (backinblack167)
Occult - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (Amor)
backinblack167 - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)

Not Voting - 5 (cerebus3, curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Occult, Radio_Interference)

5 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

no, it is always good for the mafia to know who the town thinks is the most town. Making their choice of who kill more obvious. If scum doesnt know who the TOWN thinks is the most protown as a whole, it is harder for them to make a decision.

[curiouskarmadog]

Cere, I agree BAB is the VI....or scum. I dont think I am leaning town as much as I once was, but his posts are so unorganized, blatantly apparent he is not reading the thread thoroughly, and demostrates huge jumps in assumption, I cant imagine scum would be so obvious. Of course, if anyone has ever played with DGB, then you know scum could be. If he is scum or if he is town, it is obvious that he is new.

BAB, you have yet to show my contradiction...

--it is common knowledge that your posts are hard to follow. STOP SPINNING.

--you have yet to put forth a case against me.

--I provided specific examples of what I deem scummy, that is not vague....I however, also believe anything can be scummy depending on the player and context...please explain how this belief is scummy again? STOP SPINNING.

--I havent been "working" on a case...I have been waiting for lurkers to post, Black just did and I am watching interactions right now...Where have I said I have been WORKING on my case? I am not putting a case out there, until I feel like I have a strong canidate for scum. Why are you pressuring me for a case that I dont have yet? STOP SPINNING

--Why are you trying so hard to spin everything I say scummy?

---you say you need to be more "conservative in my accusations" yet you write mountians of text to say I am scummy without a case, organized thought, or real "facts".

Also Bab, I find it odd that everytime you post something you say "I think this is scummy, but I could be wrong", "I think your scummy, but that doesnt mean mafia", or my favorite "I am calling you out, that doesnt mean you are scummy, just anti town".

I think that you could be trying to cover your ass when you add these statements to the end of your posts. If we hang someone that you have said that about, you always can fall back on, "well, I said, I wasnt sure"..

anyway, if you think I am scum, why arent you voting me? To me, it feels like you are waiting to get a couple other town backers before having to place your vote. You have dedicated most of your time in this game to me and trying to spin me scummy ("but maybe not mafia")...now back it up with a vote...or a case even...because right now, you are not helping us AT ALL.

[curiouskarmadog]

Cere, I dont want to lynch BAB because he is the VI, and a suggestion to do so is scummy...I am more interested in his actions, not the fact he distracting the town..

Amor, I am not just sitting back, trust me, if I had to push a case today...where did I say I was just sitting back? Would you rather I push a case for a lynch right now, without having all the facts and conversation needed to do so properly? How is that pro town?

Amor, you want people to believe I am "sitting back"..please describe exactly what you are doing.

BAB, jesus, and mountain of text? Will get to it when I can.

[curiouskarmadog]

Cere, I dont want to lynch BAB because he is the VI, and a suggestion to do so is scummy...I am more interested in his actions, not the fact he distracting the town..

FOS:

CKD for making a blanket response to my post and misrepresenting what I said.

I

don't

want him lynched, especially not today, but an endgame situation with a player like Bab is extremely dangerous, and if we don't have a better candidate day 3, which is unlikely unless he IS scum, then I don't want him around. When I look at his actions I see "I am a VI", so I don't get what you are trying to accomplish by continuing to interrogate him. What part of his actions have you seen that could only be done by scum and not a VI? I believe that you are wasting the towns time in persisting in this farce that accomplished nothing.

I didnt say that YOU said we should lynch BAB, I said that that suggestion would be scummy. in your post you CLEARLY STATE we should leave him alone for now...I just wanted my opinion out there, before people read your post and decide BAB is the play today.

I also see another big post by BAB..will get to it when I can

[curiouskarmadog]

omg I skimmed over BAB's posts.....couple quick notes...do you not see that I am actually defending you by saying you are not the lynch today????...ARE YOU REALLY READING THE THREAD?

I did not put words in Amor mouth..he said I WAS SITTING BACK...you even quoted his post where he said that...ARE YOU REALLY READING THE THREAD?

it is going to take me hours to reply and pull quotes for BAB crap...and yes, 80% of it appears to be crap, but I think the majority of the town can see that...and the format you did it in (half bold response and half pulling quotes and replying normally) will also be a pain to reply to....so it might look something like a post pyramid, but hopefully I can organize it to something that is easy to read and respond too....I will try to hit it this weekend, no promises though.

[curiouskarmadog]

where the fuck did I say I was building a case against you? YOU ARE EITHER DELIBERATELY SPINNING or NOT READING THE THREAD...please quote where I said I was building a case against you..I said I WAS GOING TO REPLY TO YOU..

I just told Amor that I didnt have enough to build a case against anyone.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, if you read (and not paraphrase) I said you were either a VI OR SCUM...

[curiouskarmadog]

please answer the question, where did I say I was building a case?..or are you making that up?

please state where I put words in amor mouth...you avoided answering those questions.

[curiouskarmadog]

RI, the reason the posts are short is because I dont have much time to post in this thread right now. I am fustrated with BAB because a.) he is clearly tunnel visioning on me taking things out of context, not reading what I write, and making giant leaps of logic or assumption, b.) his posts are/were hard to follow and when I ask him to clarify he attacks me or he attacks me if he thinks I am not understanding something he said on purpose c.) I have other games, and I need to address his two monster posts, but dont have the time at the moment, d.) it seems like everything I post, BAB "spins" to mean something I didnt even say or implies a motive that is clearly not there, it is fustrating when someone says you say something you didnt or you are doing something you are not, and not have time (hours) to reply because the posts are huge and you want to make you sure you get evrything in.

hopefully I will be able to do this by Monday.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK my Monday is going to be super busy...going to attack this thread (again, it is going to take me an hour or two to REPLY) on Tuesday or Wednesday.

[curiouskarmadog]

if I could get some time to post more than a sentence or two I would do it....I also want to get my suspects at there too.

[curiouskarmadog]

thinking about this thread, I might have to retort in a series of posts as a go..

I also note that RI thinks that BAB's "case" against me is strong, as it really is not even a case, but a bunch of assumptions and misinformed conjecture....at this point, I am not as interested in BAB response to my response as to RI's thoughts on them...RI why do you feel like BAB's case is strong? Or are you referring to the manner in which he attacks?

also noted is Jim Sauce's stance that BAB and I are the best two scum suspects right now (if I misread your post, please feel free to correct me). This is a classic set up of, if one turns out to me town, the other MUST be scum.....now if BAB and myself are two townies bumping heads (as I think is the case), this is a great set up isnt it? BAB your thoughts on this? If for some odd reason I hang today and when you discover that I am indeed town, how will you defend yourself from this attack? This is why (one reason) I think you are probably just a misguided townie (or a VI). I dont think scum would attack this hard and clearly tunnel vision this much on someone they know is town. Most likely they would sit back and comment on how such and such are acting scummy (but so is thier attacker is some ways) but not vote or do anything until they see how the BW starts to form....I wonder if anybody here is fitting such a bill.

now I plan on responding to your attack..but really it is going to come down to "you are jumping to conclusions based on your misassumptions of actions"...you are clearly tunnel visioning on me, it is not helpful. Now I am not telling you stop attacking me (if you truly think I am scum), but I am saying look for a moment at others..who is waiting for what? Why are they waiting? Why arent they scum hunting? There are some who are asking questions, which is good, there are others who are just sitting back to see who has the better arguement between us.

[curiouskarmadog]

Bib: Who do you think the possible scum pairs are? Do you see anyone who seems to be connected in a scummy way?

I'm not really sure at the moment, and I really haven't thought much about it yet. Your earlier interactions with Occult had me suspicious, and I think that could be a viable scumpair. JS and WLC have almost been sort of disconnected, and it's hard to really tie them to anyone in particular. I could see CKD with Occult despite his earlier confrontation with Boggzie, and maybe CKD with Amor, however that connection is slightly iffy. Cerebus and RI have looked pretty pro-town to me so far.

this is my point, I can pull about 3 different posts where BiB states he either has a good feeling about me, doesnt understand the attack on me, or feels I am protown.

now that some in town have stated suspicion of me, if tune changes without reason.

why all of the sudden am I a scum pair in two out of your 4 scum pairs..with no reason why when several posts before I was protown...what changed?

[curiouskarmadog]

CKD was fine at first, but since getting into his fight with BaB he's eben using a lot of ad hominem attacks that don't really serve any purpose but to destroy BaB's credibility.

please provide examples of this...also, I have said I thought BAB was town, how is this destroying is cred?

Official Vote Count

Occult - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
BridgesAndBaloons - 1 (Amor)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)

Not Voting - 6 (backinblack167, cerebus3, curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Occult, Radio_Interference)

5 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

side note: I am not taking my time and thinking anything over..i simply dont have the time to post the monster reply to TWO monster posts...it will require pulling posts and it will take hours...as it stands, I only have minutes in the day to stop by and check in on my games and drop a line or two...

I will get to it when I can...I just dont know when that will be. I am still reading the thread because I dont want to get behind on it....

BAB, you were either spinning (scum) or misread (town)....I have will reply when I can...but I am not replying to try to convince you I am town, I am replying to your monster posts because they are simply faulty and down right wrong.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok, composing a post now.

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok, think I am going to start this post off with a little lesson in spinning. Spinning is a term used by most Public Relations companies (or political candidate) when the take an event and use it in such a manner as to put there company in good light or put there “opponent” in bad light. This is commonly used here in mafiascum..an example.

Person A votes for Person B Day 1, but for whatever reason removes his vote. Person B is lynched anyway day 1 and is discovered to be town.

Possible spins used by people with two different meanings.

1.) Person A knew that Person B was town, and he removed his vote because he didn’t want to assiociated with the lynch. Person A must be scum.
2.) Person A didn’t know Person B’s alignment and he was removed his vote because he wasn’t sure and didn’t want a hasty lynch. Person A must be town.

Problem with both of these is that the person who stated the “spin” does not know Person A’s true motivation behind his action and instead of asking questions, simply states his

opinion

as fact.

BAB, has been doing a lot of this. Problem is I don’t know if he is an idiot VI, tunneled visioned overzealous townie, or scum. Going to address his posts, the best I can, but mostly they are going to be examples of spinning.

CKD: You are the scummiest person in this game right now. Not only do you contradict yourself, but you refused to answer my question. I've picked up major scum waves from you througout this game.
scumminess doesn't inherently mean mafia.
Evidence to come later (I think two days. busy tomorrow), I got to go to sleep.
In the mean time,

FOS CKD

You have not demonstrated yet what my contradiction was/is. I did not refuse to answer your “what are your top scum tells” questions, not only did I answer, but I gave specific examples of what I deemed as scummy. You then said I was being vague because I said almost anything could be a scum tell. Please explain how me saying that, then offering direct examples of things I feel is scummy was vague. I provided DIRECT EXAMPLES. I just didn’t want anyone to think that they were the ONLY things I deem scummy. If you still want to push that my DIRECT examples were vague, please explain how my vagues examples are scummy.

Note for everyone: I've decided I need to be more conservative in my accusations. It's not helping town for me to make a case agaisnt CKD when it really isn't complete. Again, not everything CKD has done has been scummy, and he has done some anti-town things; however, I am getting scummy vibes from him, and I think he has been left off the hook too easily after what Boggzie did.
So I'm going to save my case until it's actually good. Who knows? I may change my mind and think he's pro-town.

Here you say that I am doing anti-town things, but don’t provide any examples. Please provide examples of anti-town things I have done. Also, so I know where you are coming from please explain why these actions hurt the town.

Also, before I forget, one strike against you, CKD, is that you have been claiming to work on a "case" for a while. And waiting for a couple of things to pan out. (118, 137).
You've been talking about your case for 3 days, and to me it seems like you are postponing posting it for some reason? Maybe I'm completely wrong, which is what you're going to say, of course.
Anyway, Again I'm going to ask how far along you are.

.

this is strike one? I thought I have had many things that you deem are anti-town, but this is strike one? See how your posts are hard to understand? I then ask you where I have posted that I was going to post a case and you come back with.

1) You never

said

were building a case, but you implied that you were working on something on posts 118 and 137. I guess I was kind of hoping you were making a case,

So you gave me a strike for not posting a case. You want people to think I am scummy for not posting a case when I said I would. But then you back track and admit I never said I was going to submit a case. Do I still have a strike? So you were hoping I was going to put a case forward, but since I didn’t you wanted to imply I did, when I never really said I was going to. So you either misread or you were trying to spin an action to make it scummy, even though you have no fact to back it up.

+++
The following is replying to the part of the post that BAB bolded when he replied to me. I will try to make this easy to follow.

“Me: and demostrates huge jumps in assumption,

BAB: way to go. Making another complete lie without any evidence.”

This is not a lie. When you say someone is scummy because of an action and you are assuming their motivation, it is a huge jump based on faulty assumptions. Recent Example: You stated I was scummy because I stated I would post a case and hadn’t. The truth is I never said I was going to put forth a case. But lets say I did for all arguments sake. Why is that scummy? Maybe I wanted to wait to get more information…maybe I wanted to wait because I wasn’t as sure I knew who scum was? Maybe I didn’t want to push a case because there wasn’t a case to push.

So, you ASSUME that I have scummy intentions because I didn’t post a case and you JUMP to the conclusion I am scum, when the truth is, you have no clue my motivations. Please explain how this is not spinning an action to push your case?

“Me: BAB, you have yet to show my contradiction...

BAB: My post was meant to goad you into slipping up. It was a post to get a reaction”

AGAIN, a form of spinning. This is twice that you have stated that I did something that was scummy, when you had either misread or were lying to “goad” me. Please explain to me what result you wanted to get by lying to the town saying I was contradicting myself. Then explain to me how lying to the town is not ANTI-TOWN!

“Me: --it is common knowledge that your posts are hard to follow.

BAB: Common knowledge? You are the only one who has said my posts are hard to follow, and you just said it right now. Cerb says I'm a VI but he doesn't say my posts are hard to follow.”

I apparently was wrong here and have no problem admitting that. I found many of your posts confused to read or follow, I thought others had posted that they had too…but I was wrong.

“Me --I provided specific examples of what I deem scummy, that is not vague....I however, also believe anything can be scummy depending on the player and context...please explain how this belief is scummy again? STOP SPINNING.

BAB: I think that you basically cancelled out your examples by saying they might not be scum tells. I also think you ruined the chance for us to
paraphrase quote: 'know where you are coming from for my re-reads and future reads"

the fact that you mention this so many times in this post clearly makes me think you are spinning the facts against me. STOP SAYING STOP SPINNING! ”

You are spinning here. When you say, that I am scum, because I you deemed my answer as vague that is spinning. My answer was not vague. If you polled the town, and asked them if they thought my answer was vague versus very specific I bet you would be surprised to find out the answer. But lets say I was being vague, you never explained how that was scummy either? You just make statements without much thought or backing.

“Me --I havent been "working" on a case...I have been waiting for lurkers to post, Black just did and I am watching interactions right now...Where have I said I have been WORKING on my case? I am not putting a case out there, until I feel like I have a strong canidate for scum. Why are you pressuring me for a case that I dont have yet? STOP SPINNING

BAB: what about this is spinning? You are so . . . silly.”

I have explained this already in this post, no need to go over it again.

“Me ---you say you need to be more "conservative in my accusations" yet you write mountians of text to say I am scummy without a case, organized thought, or real "facts".

BABmountains of text!? sounds like someone is exagerating. STOP SPINNING. See isn't that annoying?”

This was not an exaggeration. I also note you don’t mention anything about the fact I called you out about having “real facts”.

“BAB mark my words. When we hang someone that I voted for AND made a case against, if it was mafia, I will gloat like there's no tomorrow. But if I lead a case against someone who turned out to be town, I will take full responsibality for my actions. If someone in the future is meta'ing me right now, you will see that I do this.”

This is a bold statement. This is why I think that BAB is town and really stupid scum. If BAB was scum and knew I was town, a statement like this would fry him Day 2 after I was lynched and turned scum. I am officially noting this post

{NOTE}

When I posts my thoughts on other’s players, I think this particular post will be noted because of the timing (will explain more later).

++++

this post is huge at the moment (a mountain of text to answer a mountain of text).

Going to stop here for now…

BAB, I hope you read this post as an explanation and not an attack…you want to know how you can improve you game play? Don’t tunnel vision and if you are going to push a point, don’t do it based on a lie and make sure you have all of your facts.

[curiouskarmadog]

ugh, that is an hour of my life I will not get back..I hate that I have to keep focusing all my energy to BAB, but there are ceritan "points" that need to be set straight.

I am hoping my next post will finish up with BaB's posts

then the post after I will address other's in the thread.

[curiouskarmadog]

omg...this is going to continue is a circle..

"long time ago"?? you have been hounding to reply to your post..when I do, you attack me for replying to something from long time ago?...

and you didnt make a mistake..you have admitted to LYING about my contradiction and IMPLYING that I did something I didnt do..this is not a mistake this is anti town behavior...

I guess you can add this last post along with what I have to reply too in regards to BAB..

[curiouskarmadog]

In order to try to break this up, I'm going to try to only respond where you attack me directly, or ask questions. Again if I missed something, let me know.

I feel like you are doing the exact same thing to me..

this is going to go no where. this is probably the first thing I agree with you on..I will review the rest of your posts, and will ask you questions directly. I am not going to reply to you entire post, but if there is something you would like me to address that I missed, please bring it to my attention..and I will do the same for you.

there are a couple other people I would like to ask questions, and I have been so wrapped up addressing your posts (and defending myself) that I havent had time for other people..

my next post I will address the rest of BAB's posts.

[curiouskarmadog]

dont post that often during weekends, unless I have time..

did note that he have another replacement...although I just skimmed at this point...hopefully will address this thread tomorrow.

[curiouskarmadog]

BAB---

1.)

I then ask you where I have posted that I was going to post a case and you come back with.

1) You never

said

were building a case, but you implied that you were working on something on posts 118 and 137. I guess I was kind of hoping you were making a case,

So you gave me a strike for not posting a case. You want people to think I am scummy for not posting a case when I said I would.

Stop putting words in some one's mouth. This is not the first time you have done this.

You have no right telling me what I want.

I don't want the town to think you're scummy. I want the town to have more evidence to see who the scum is.

I want them to decide for themselves.

Since i so strongly believe you are the scum, I want the town to have more evidence about you.

Please explain to me why you have an issue with my statement? You want people to have more evidence that I am scum, right? So how is that any different than “you want people to think I am scummy”? Also, you sort of evade the question but I will reinstate it in the semantics you prefer. You want people to think I am scum given the “evidence” that I had not posted a case yet. How is this evidence that I am scummy? if you have answered why this is scum evidence please repost.

2.)

If you still want to push that my DIRECT examples were vague, please explain how my vagues examples are scummy.

you avoided this question, while playing the semantics of the word “vague” But please answer the question (if you have answered it before, please repost it if you could). Why were my specific examples (even though I included the statement that almost anything could be considered scummy) evidence that I am scum.

3.)

it is a huge jump based on faulty assumptions. Recent Example: You stated I was scummy because I stated I would post a case and hadn’t.

This is

the only

case you have. You are accenting it to try to make your case stronger.

You say this is my "only" case, but you directly avoid the questions associated with it. I will post them again (and bold) so you don’t miss them.

Recent Example: You stated I was scummy because I stated I would post a case and hadn’t. The truth is I never said I was going to put forth a case. But lets say I did for all arguments sake.

Why is that scummy?

Maybe I wanted to wait to get more information…maybe I wanted to wait because I wasn’t as sure I knew who scum was? Maybe I didn’t want to push a case because there wasn’t a case to push.

So, you ASSUME that I have scummy intentions because I didn’t post a case and you JUMP to the conclusion I am scum, when the truth is, you have no clue my motivations.

Please explain how this is not spinning an action to push your case?

Also, why did you chose to avoid answering the questions while replying to my post the first time? Why is this point “weak”? “50 posts back” you wanted people to think that me not posting was “evidence” that I was scum, but you can not explain why it is evidence I am scum. When I ask you about it, you think it is a weak point. Please explain.

5.) I know you think I am scummy, but I still don’t really know why. Please explain to me why you think I am scum. Give me 3-5 “points of evidence” why I must be scum. FI you could, please put it in a separate post, than the answer to the above questions, I want to make sure I don’t miss them.


RI,

[CKD]

When do you think you're going to have that last post for us?

what does it matter? Is that stopping you from posting your thoughts on BAB, myself, or other people? What were your thoughts on my first (long) post to BAB. BAB’s reply to mine? Why when you were prodded, did you feel like it was important to ask me where my “final” post to BAB was when there were 4 other people that had to be prodded?

Black,

this is my point, I can pull about 3 different posts where BiB states he either has a good feeling about me, doesnt understand the attack on me, or feels I am protown.

now that some in town have stated suspicion of me, if tune changes without reason.

why all of the sudden am I a scum pair in two out of your 4 scum pairs..with no reason why when several posts before I was protown...what changed?

Nothing changed. My feelings are still pretty much the same on you. BaB asked me for possible scumpairs/strong connections, and I provided pairs based on current and past prominent connections and interactions that made sense to me. Others were left out because their interactions and connections with others in previous posts either A) didn't stand out to me as an important or strong connection or B) were insignificant.

So do you find me scummy or not? IF so, when did that start and why?

Black, what is your opinion of JS, do you still feel like he isn’t taking stances? Also interested in your opinion of RI.

JS,

also noted is Jim Sauce's stance that BAB and I are the best two scum suspects right now (if I misread your post, please feel free to correct me). This is a classic set up of, if one turns out to me town, the other MUST be scum.....

Not really. My belief that you two aren't scum-partners doesn't mean one must be scum. In addition to that, my suspicions on you wouldn't change if BaB was lynched right now and turned up town.

I wonder if anybody here is fitting such a bill.

*sidles out of the room*

If BAB was lynched right now and turned up scum, would your opinion of me change? If so why? Why exactly do you have suspicions of me (and BAB) right now? When did they start?

I also note you picked up on my slight implication of suspicion of your timing of your posts (suspicious), but you weren’t the only one that was directed at.

WLC,

It's funny though. In other games placing votes is mainly used to get discussion going, but in this game there are few votes, and there's a lot more discussion than in other games I played.

Yes then do, any reason you haven’t commented on other votes that are out there? Any thoughts on why people feel like you are lurking? You have any particular views on lurking? Do you feel like you are helping the town at this point? Why or why not?

[curiouskarmadog]

everyone--

I plan on voting (and presenting reasoning ) soon. I just wanted all my questions answered first. I agree that we are entering (should already be in) the stage where voting will be telling.

as for the open questions posed:

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

I have seen some alts. come in and play the newbie card before when they were scum. I made notes of this in my intial read of the game when I replaced in, and I think that might have made BAB angry. I do not think that BAB is an alt. I believe that he is probably a newbie. I think that his attacks are misguided, but I do believe he thinks I am scum. Justified? No, I feel he has tunneled visioned on me. To the point when it is getting unhealthy for the town (lying, attempting to goad, ignoring points). Now, this will not be understood until end game or when you find that I am town. But if he truly is town, and I am killed tonight or hung today, he is going to have much to answer for tomorrow. I dont feel that his posts are numerous, but intially lacked organization, however, I think (hope) that is improving. His opinion and post do matter, even though I find them fustrating. He has made a strong stance on me today (the strongest anyone here has made to anyone). I just hope that he doesnt keep a blind to everyone else today.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

I think I mentioned this when I first entered the game. Though I find his asking for a deadline on page 2 strange, I dont think that asking for a deadline is scummy. I have asked for deadlines as town and as scum. I think it is a null tell. I dont think he cared if it was retractable or not, but most deadlines here tend to be retractable upon request, so I think it is believable.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

Yes. I dont feel like it has improved, I asked him about it and he has replied, ball is still in his court on if he will continue. Lurking in itself is not a scum tell. I have lurked in a boring game or when I dont have time. Lurking combined with other things (like poor cases, votes, Bandwagons) is a scum tell.

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

Theory discussion are not a scum tell and occur frequently is newbie games. They do distract but they are needed in newbie games. What you need to watch for are those who ONLY discuss theory. Semantics are used and are being frequently used in this game. They should be noted as a possible scum tells, when they are relied upon to avoid questions and back track from previous attacks.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

I still dont believe his is not an alt., I dont think he ever said he was inexperienced (maybe I am wrong), but he did say he wasnt an alt. I think a better question is what should we think if it is discovered that he IS an alt. I dont think his posting style hides emotion and dont have a problem with the style.

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell

Well, if you ever played in a game with me before, you know I do get "emotional". I also tend to attack anyone who pushes a case that I am scum, based on the fact that I am emotional. Twice now I have found scum who have tried to push this (can provide links of completed games if desired, both games I was attacked for being "emotional" by scum, one game that I was hung for it). When someone fustrates the piss out of me, I get angry. I have nothing to hide so I type as I see it.

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.

Why do you feel like you dont have anything on Amor or Sauce?

[curiouskarmadog]

hoping to get to this thread by Mon or Tuesday.

[curiouskarmadog]

You completely disregarded all the options I that said, one of which is actually occurring.
I think you're tunneling me, Muerto.

oh thats rich

[curiouskarmadog]

reading now, getting caught up.

[curiouskarmadog]

Wow, TD enters the game with a ton of content.

Also, I am not sure why JS doesn’t see anything to comment on at this point…there is a ton of things going on here.

So, after posting your own answers and reading others answers:

Who's your top suspect?

I have two, case coming, once I get caught up again

Well, CKD's posts set off my spidy senses. I have been confused by what he's implied with his use of structuring his posts, and so have others.

please explain (post numbers?)...also who (others??) has had problems with my post structure?


I see that TD has falling into the same circle of crap with BAB that I did, difference is TD seems to not let the fustration get to him..

Thus, for backing off, self-contradicting, making `spinning' and `weak argument' accusations without providing any evidence and then ignoring questions regarding

why

the argument was `weak' or `spinning,' building a case on curiouskarmadog that is based entirely on a statement that he misinterprets as `contradictory' (and even if it were, he still fails to explain how that would have been scummy) and continously ignoring requests to provide evidence and/or reasoning:

vote: BridgesAndBaloons.

you can also add lying to that list too..

all this being said, I still think he is probably just the VI who has gotten overzealous, became a hypocrite, and tunnel visioned on one player.

I realized that I've been so caught up in quick action,

quick action? please define.

Do you have any idea how easy we're making it for WLC, and JS if they are mafia!? They just sit back and fuel the flames. This is what I'm worried about.

are you fucking kidding me? You have done nothing but attack me for weeks, I havent had much time to do anything else in this thread, but argue with your constant tunnel visioning and dodging of my questions. Now someone has argued you into a corner, you are deflecting on WLC and JS? Please explain to me how you have done anything to scum hunt in regards to WLC and JS? Do you have a question for them, or would you just prefer your attackers to do it for you?

What I want to do is decide how I feel in this thread, so I can generate new ideas, instead of just replying to the SAME arguments over and over...

You are the one who keeps pushing the same crap over and over again...and now when someone wants to you answer questions, you come back with this????...

Maybe you are not the VI, maybe you are the scum equivalent of a VI…maybe I am tunnel visioning too here, maybe I believe that you are town and am willingly to look over some completely scummy actions because I think you are such a newbie...I dont know.

BaB, I want your thoughts on Amor, JS, RI, and WLC.

[curiouskarmadog]

and your vote on TD?

[curiouskarmadog]

case coming...other games heating up...probably in the next two days.

[curiouskarmadog]

Not much substantial to reply to, but I'll give it a shot. BaB and CKD's upcoming big posts should provide us with some content at least

* On that note, CKD has been apparently getting caught up on the game for at least two weeks now.

*

really two weeks? I havent posted any big posts for two weeks? I havent provided any long posts with content in two weeks? you really want to keep pushing that amor? I think that if you compare my posts versus your posts in this game since I replaced in your will find a huge difference in content and posting.

I need time to reread thoroughly and post my case...

if you meta, you will find that I have posted in SEVERAL threads that I need to reread and will post something soon...I am keeping up with the thread, but havent had the time to do more than that...I will get to it in the next couple of days.

[curiouskarmadog]

One of my prime suspects right now for scum is Amor, .

From my intitial read of the game I didn’t like Amor. The first really scummy thing that occurred in this game can be contributed to him. I posted this in my first read of the game post, but I think it is worth a reposting.

Amor agrees with Occult (FoSes Clone)........

.....JS and RI attack Occult about having a stupid reason for voting clone….I hardly think Occult was being serious......

...Hmmm…

Yeah, Occult's vote was pretty much OMGUS, and in my mind much more suspicious than the deadline thing.

I'd really like to hear from some of the people who have been lurking, especially Boggzie, who is an IC but hasn't posted any content yet.

Boom, first real scummy thing this game. Amor thinks Occult’s vote was suspicious and OMGUS, but his post IMMEDIATELY after Occult’s post was agreeing with Occult and FoSes WLC. Not to mention, he never mentions that Occult being suspicious at that time. He only now, mentions it after people are attacking Occult.

Here, Amor shows how quickly his opinion changes. First Amor agrees with Occult and Foses Clone, then when people point out they feel like Occult suspicious of his action, then he completely flip flops on his opinion with the majority.

I ask him about this (post 108) and he replies (122).

Questions questions…

Amor, why on page 2 did you agree with Occult and Fos WLC then say on page 3 that Occult looks suspicious because of his OMGUS vote on WLC? Why didn’t you mention that when you agreed with him on page 2?

Yeah, my bad. I didn't really think about Occult's vote before making that post. The silly reasoning for his vote made me think it was something of a joke vote. On further inspection (and, admittedly, some other people pointing it out) I took another look at it and realized it was suspicious. I still think WLC's vote was unwarranted, though.

I didn’t call him on this crap at the time because I was knee deep in the mess that BAB was weaving. He claims he thought it was a joke vote. Read his post. (40)

Hi, I'm replacing Phael.

As others have said, this game is slow moving so far, likely because there's not much to go on. The only thing that sticks out is Occult being at L-2 when we're barely out of the random voting phase yet. So with that said...

Unvote Occult

FoS on WLC

Asking for a deadline isn't really suspicious given the circumstances. It seems a little agressive to put a third vote on someone because of it.

Does that seem like someone who thought Occult’s vote on WLC was a silly vote? No! Where in your FoS of WLC, do you indicate you felt like Occult’s vote was silly? I think this was the first big lie of the game and surprised no one has called Amor on it. Amot please explain where you indicated you thought Occult vote was a joke.

He then claims he is trying to be careful before accusing anyone, then starts attacking BAB…when I ask him about it he retorts with this.

I'm not going to lie, post 125 was a concious attempt to be more agressive and make a case against who I thought was scummiest. This was because RI pointed out that my posting style wasn't helping out the town, so I thought I would try and change it.

In my previous posts I tried not to jump to a conclusion that someone was mafia, and present all of the possible reasons for an action. That was what I was referring to by being "careful". As it turns out, this actually didn't help anyone, so I presented a stronger opinion. There's a chance I may have swung too far the other way, but I think that I have decent enough reasoning behind my vote.

OK, changing playstyles to attempt to help the town is a reasonable excuse. But changing playstyles can also be a scum tell and should be noted. In this particular case, I think it is a null tell, but still should be noted…however, in my time when people use the term “to be honest” or “honestly” it is a red flag. Newer scum (and older sometimes) tend to slip up and say this. This implies that at one point you had thought about lying or stretching the truth. (Newer) Scum tend to use this ploy to show the town how honest and forthcoming they are. Amor uses “Im not going lie”. Thanks for letting us know you are “not going to lie”. There is no reason for anyone to lie if they are playing an honest game and are pro-town, unless of course you are trying to trick scum. This is not the case.


Post 188, bothers me as well.

I havent been "working" on a case...I have been waiting for lurkers to post, Black just did and I am watching interactions right now

I don't like this idea of "sitting back and seeing what happens." You mentioned this before when me and BaB were arguing. This seems to me like an excuse not to contribute until there's a consensus that you can jump on.

Here, he is trying to shed a bad light on the fact that I am waiting for more information. First he comes into the game and says that he is “trying to be careful before accusing anyone” then suggests I am scummy for wanting to wait for more information and for the lurkers to post content. I am not about to push a case on anyone without all the information I deem necessary to do so. At the time, I wanted to hear from the lurkers. Why didn’t you? Why was it ok for you “to be careful”, but when I want to wait it is “an excuse not to contribute until there is a consensus”. Another scummy move. If you deem me scummy, than your ass should be in the same light, right? I also should note, that he spun my waiting to push a case as “sitting back and seeing what happens”…this implies that I was just sitting back not posting content or offering an opinion. At this point in the game, I was probably one of the top posters in amount of posts, opinions, and content. This statement from Amor reeks of scum.

Another scummy post. (211)

@Amor: What do you think of my suggestion with Bab?

I can certainly see where you're coming from with the VI idea. But I still think that BAB is a pretty safe lynch. Even if he's not scum, we won't be missing a lot. My worry here is that if we let him live, then we'll spend the next couple of days just debating BAB again and being distracted from potential other scum.

Even if we lynch BaB and he is town, it is ok…WHAT?! I for one don’t want to lynch someone that could be town. We are here to lynch scum, not too lynch safely. Bab might be annoying and can be distrtacting (at least to me), but if you don’t think he is scum, then you shouldnt be voting him. Every lynch counts.

He clarifies some more in (219)

Let me briefly clear this up: I still think that BAB is probably scum, which is why I'm voting for him. His flip-flopping and using "traps" is suspicious and not, I would think, typical newbie behavior. I'm certainly not saying that we should lynch him

because

he's the VI. (Which is a distinction I'm not sure I agree with, BTW.) My thoughts are just that if he did turn out to be town, it would be less of a loss than if we lynched another player, which could be a point in favour of voting him. I disagree with CKD about this topic. And no, I'm not 100% sure BAB is mafia, but I think he's the most suspicious right now.

(I realize I'm probably focusing on BAB too much, but I honestly don't have a lot to comment on in regards to other players.)

2 points here that are scummy.

1.) He thinks BAB is scummy because of his “flip-flopping”…Amor has flip flopped twice in this game. Once during the Occult/WLC exchange and once with his playstyle (wants to be careful, then aggressively attacks BAB)
2.) He uses the “I honestly” line again….


Currently he has been really driving home the BAB lynch....also, he has several times that Bab and myself are both scummy...why are we both scummy?

And there is this recent post.

* On that note, CKD has been apparently getting caught up on the game for at least two weeks now.

why is that worth noting? I have been posting and keep up with the thread..I just haven’t put a case out there…the only reason you thought it should be noted is because a.) it might mean something later or b.) you think it is scummy now.

how quickly you forget.

Okay, I've been a bit swamped so I didn't have time to put together a full response until now. I may not be posting frequently for the next week or two due to finals

people have other priorities...why am I worth noting, but you are not?

need to get caught up, will post X later" (in this case the second part of the reply to BaB) post where you still haven't posted X

I have posted everything I need to Bab...please post what I haven’t addressed to Bab.

To sum up, I think that Amor is one of our scum..I have thoughts on others, but nothing that deserves a vote at the moment.

Vote Amor.

[curiouskarmadog]

mod, please fix quote tags.

Done - Vel

[curiouskarmadog]

But...CKD you had just as long a post suspecting BaB...

so are you saying now that you see them as distancing or have you changed your mind?

Unvote, Vote: CKD

Muerrto, if I have said anything in this game..I have said that I thought BaB was town.....I have said it at least 10 times now...do I need to post them all?

[curiouskarmadog]

furthermore, this is my first vote and case that I have pushed...I have said (again like 10 times) that I thought BaB was a VI, so please explain your vote..post where I have said I thought BaB was scum for sure....also, if you do, please provide the post number.

Muerrto, do you have a provide with my vote on Amor?

You vote me, yet you didnt address my case against Amor (noted)..can you please address my case against Amor.

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, do you have a provide with my vote on Amor?

provide=problem...meaning, why do you have a problem with my first vote of the game?

[curiouskarmadog]

because when someone says I am doing something for reasons that I am not doing it..it pisses me off.

I am not giving him a free pass...but atm, I think that AMor is definitely scum

[curiouskarmadog]

wow, going to take some time to read that..see my name listed about 20 times,,have no time now, will read it later.

[curiouskarmadog]

(laughing)....read it again, was it circular discussion or fustration/defense..who was the one who first stated that it was becoming circular and wasnt helping the town? Who was the one who first said we should stop?

please answer...and then defend your vote and explain how my actions were distracting.

[curiouskarmadog]

things I will get done today...answer Amor retort...read BaB's 3400 word post...wait for WLC to defend his unjustified vote.

[curiouskarmadog]

what does bib have to do with me..

maybe you need to reread like I said, or you feel like you have said enough about your crap vote/case.

[curiouskarmadog]

Here, Amor shows how quickly his opinion changes. First Amor agrees with Occult and Foses Clone, then when people point out they feel like Occult suspicious of his action, then he completely flip flops on his opinion with the majority.

I didn't agree with Occult or defend his post in the first post, I just criticized WLC. I didn't express an opinion on Occult's vote in the first post, so how can I be flip-flopping?

If you are going to defend yourself, please stop with the lying.

FoS on WLC

Asking for a deadline isn't really suspicious given the circumstances. It seems a little agressive to put a third vote on someone because of it.

you defended Occult, you said his actions were not really suspicious. You FoS WLC, who Occult had his vote one. You implied what your opinion was of Occult’s vote. You FoSed WLC for the same reason Occult was voting him. You do flip flop…you even admit to doing it.

Later when people started discussing it I realized that it was now considered to be a more serious vote, so I treated it as such.

I find your explanation of the flip flop, reasonable though. But the fact you deny the flip flop is suspcious.

This is nitpicking. I used "I'm not going to lie" because the post involved admitting past failings, which was something some people might try to save face about. In any case, I don't see how a particular turn of phrase is scummy.

It is all about the frame set of mafia and those who know they are guilty. In my experience I have found new scum that use the phrase. They tend to use the term “to be honest”..I am explained why I feel that way. Really this debate can not go any further until your alignment is known, or the game is over. I noted it, and my vote wasn’t on you for this bit alone.

First off, there were a couple comments around that time of the same nature, so I was addressing those as well. It's true that you were and are active, and I've never argued that you've been inactive in general. What I have pointed out is you holding back on certain subjects, and "I'm going to wait and see what happens" is definitely an example of this. Can you provide an example of me specifically dodging a subject?

Again, I was “holding back” because I didn’t fully have an opinion yet. Why would you want to hear thoughts that hadn’t really been thought through yet? If I had provided thoughts then, it might have changed the outcome of the conversation being watched. Yes I can provide examples…in my post that you are suppose to be addressing you do not answer direct questions.

Here, he is trying to shed a bad light on the fact that I am waiting for more information. First he comes into the game and says that he is “trying to be careful before accusing anyone” then suggests I am scummy for wanting to wait for more information and for the lurkers to post content. I am not about to push a case on anyone without all the information I deem necessary to do so.

At the time, I wanted to hear from the lurkers. Why didn’t you? Why was it ok for you “to be careful”, but when I want to wait it is “an excuse not to contribute until there is a consensus”.

Another scummy move. If you deem me scummy, than your ass should be in the same light, right? I also should note, that he spun my waiting to push a case as “sitting back and seeing what happens”…this implies that I was just sitting back not posting content or offering an opinion. At this point in the game, I was probably one of the top posters in amount of posts, opinions, and content. This statement from Amor reeks of scum.

Again, why at the time did you what to put me in a scummy light, but not care what the lurkers had to say? Again, why is it ok for you “to be careful” but you STILL want to push I was scummy when I wanted to gather certain information before commenting fully on a topic….please don’t avoid the questions this time.

Even if we lynch BaB and he is town, it is ok…WHAT?! I for one don’t want to lynch someone that could be town. We are here to lynch scum, not too lynch safely. Bab might be annoying and can be distrtacting (at least to me), but if you don’t think he is scum, then you shouldnt be voting him. Every lynch counts.

You continue to fail to get the point. The point isn't that we should lynch BaB because he's distracting and doesn't help, but that a BaB mislynch wouldn't be as disastrous as a mislynch as a more pro-town player. Of course you shouldn't vote for someone you don't think is scum, and I've never suggested other wise, only that when dealing with a (alleged) VI you don't need to be as cautious.

So I missed it here, do you or don’t you agree that every lynch counts? You might not directly say lynching the VI is ok. But you provide shelter for those who do not like BaB or his posting style and might want to vote him no matter is alignment. I say, vote BaB if you think he is scum…do not vote him just because you think he is distracting. I can not think any anyone who is pro-town, posting a post like this basically saying “lynching the VI isn’t that big of a deal”. When is it ok for the town to start being cautious with it’s lynch prospects?

I wouldn't call changing my playstyle flip-flopping. Even if it is, BaB has flip-flopped more, more suspiciously (whenever it appears the attack won't catch on) and about more important things (who's scum, as opposed to how cautious I should play).

I agree with you here, BaB has been flip flopping as well (and he has been called out on it)...what is your point other than deflecting? Do you think he is scummy for his flip flop? IF you do, why is he scummy for a flip flop but you are not?

And there is this recent post.

* On that note, CKD has been apparently getting caught up on the game for at least two weeks now.

why is that worth noting? I have been posting and keep up with the thread..I just haven’t put a case out there…the only reason you thought it should be noted is because a.) it might mean something later or b.) you think it is scummy now.

how quickly you forget.

Okay, I've been a bit swamped so I didn't have time to put together a full response until now. I may not be posting frequently for the next week or two due to finals

people have other priorities...why am I worth noting, but you are not?

Yes, but you mentioned repeatedly that you were catching up, and then rereading, etc., past the point where it was credible. Looking back I notice a general pattern of excuses in your posts, from "Argh I have no time to scumhunt I have to argue with BaB" to "I am still getting caught up, no posts for the next week." I found that worth noting.

“Pattern of excuses…past the point of credible”? I was letting everyone know that a post was coming, that I was keeping up, and I wasn’t lurking..I do it every game (again meta, twice yesterday in two different games). Again, why is it scummy (worth of note) when I do it, but when you do it, it is ok? And I do it in every game (please anyone feel free to meta past and present games), is it still note worthy in this game?

I have posted everything I need to Bab...please post what I haven’t addressed to Bab.

From your 34th post:

ugh, that is an hour of my life I will not get back..I hate that I have to keep focusing all my energy to BAB, but there are ceritan "points" that need to be set straight.

I am hoping my next post will finish up with BaB's posts

You never did finish up. Now, it's not like I'm waiting with baited breath for the continuation of the circular BaB/CKD argument, but I think that if you say you're going to respond to something you should respond to it.

Again, you are the captain of avoiding direct questions. Please post what I haven’t addressed in reference to Bab..is there some question he has asked or a point he has made that I haven’t addressed?

Also Amor, please explain why you don’t mentioned my post 36 where I state..

this is going to go no where. this is probably the first thing I agree with you on..I will review the rest of your posts, and will ask you questions directly. I am not going to reply to you entire post, but if there is something you would like me to address that I missed, please bring it to my attention..and I will do the same for you.

there are a couple other people I would like to ask questions, and I have been so wrapped up addressing your posts (and defending myself) that I havent had time for other people..

my

next post I will address the rest of BAB's posts.

and my HUGE post 38, where I ask BaB a ton of questions and address the rest of Bab’s post….any reason you decided to leave out these two post in your accusation?

Basically, I think this case on me is pretty unsubstantiated. A lot of this is based on posts I have since clarified, and while you include the clarificaitons, you still attack the posts like they weren't there. You also attack my argument a lot instead of describing why it is scummy... things like "Amor said I did X, but he's also done X, so therefore he's scum" don't really make sense to me.

unsubstantiated? Please address all of my questions and requests this time.

[curiouskarmadog]

(laughing)....read it again, was it circular discussion or fustration/defense..who was the one who first stated that it was becoming circular and wasnt helping the town? Who was the one who first said we should stop?

please answer...and then defend your vote and explain how my actions were distracting.

Well, for one you could think you drew too much attention with those posts, and then decided to talk you out of it? Still find it a bit suspicious, combined with what I thought of bib (maybe it's too much gut feeling) my vote still stands.

well you didnt really answer my questions though did you?

need some clarification here...I drew attention to WHAT with WHAT posts?

who or what talked me out of what?

also, if I were to meta you right now..would I find you more active in other games posting post that are quite large....why are you not active here?

what does bib have to do with me..

Sorry, meant Boggzie, as indicated in the post I voted for you. I hate replacements, they confuse me all the time and make it much more difficult to differentiate everyone.

also, what about Bogg did you not like...when did you start not to like him..did you ever vote him or express that you didnt like him?

[curiouskarmadog]

just realized this game is almost nothing but replacements....RI and WLC are the only originals..noting that (but I note all types of things as you can see).

at any rate, it wont be until Friday or Sat. that I can get to this thread and address some posts...have two other games that are in need of updating before this one.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK, nothing i have read over the last 19 pages has made much sense to me because nearly everybody has been replaced at some point and its confusing. so i want you all to do me and awesome favour while i go over it all a few more times.
can i have everybody's views of the other plays so far other then me and give logical reasons why you think that, so i can get an idea on how each of you see things and your beliefs on who is scum of not.
Thank you.

PInk, have no problem providing you my top two scum suspects..but (again) I am not saying who I feel is town, and I really dont think anyone else should either.

[curiouskarmadog]

well, we have had that discussion before in the thread (at least I thought we had).

I am not down for telling the group who I think is town, if everyone did this, then I am sure certian people will stick out...this will help the mafia get a feel for who the town views (as a whole) as town.

the arguement is, "well, if we post our top two scum suspects then people will be left out and it might be obvious who is town"..well, it want be AS obvious...plus the information gathered from everyone posting their two two scum suspects out weighs the disadvantages.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, just call me CKD, easier to type

[curiouskarmadog]

here, about 2 pages back, need to read...will post something tomorrow

The Official Vote Count

BridgesAndBaloons - 3 (Amor, td, Muerrto)

Amor - 1 (curiouskarmadog)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
WeyounsLastClone - 1 (JimSauce)

Not Voting - 3 (BridgesAndBaloons, pinkkitten90, Radio_Interference)

5 to Lynch, 3 at deadline (May 5)

[curiouskarmadog]

getting beat down with end of the month work...hopefully will have time May 1 to post...(sending this to all my games)

[curiouskarmadog]

I won't post my top two, I don't want to give that away. My top is still BaB.

strange comment…it is not so much giving that away as seeing play and accusation changes. I am interested who your second is today.

I like JS’s post, case, and vote on 465. Think this really is the first thing from JS I like this entire game.

Of course, I really can't see him being scumbuddies with BaB due to that exchange, so that tempers my suspicion a bit.

this is a safe statement to make at this point in the game isn’t it? “My top two scum suspects are BaB and CKD, but I don’t see CKD as a scum buddy with BAB”. Is it coincidence that BAB is the current vote leader and will probably hang today? I also think it is interesting how he does see BAB as a scum buddy to me. I think this is a classic set up. I think person A and person B are scum today. Person A is hung and found innocent…guess I will have to attack person B tomorrow.

Amor, I would like you to address JS’s case against WLC.

pinkkitten, I your only defense is trying to redirect suspicion towards radio interference and calling his playstyle confusing, it's starting to get me suspicious. It's been interesting to read BaB's and Muerrto's long posts. I think Muerrto's has a bit more merit, because it has more focus, whereas BaB is doing what he has been doing pointing at everything.

this is WLC next post after JS posted a huge case against him…

Weyouns doesn't acknowledge the presence of #465.

qft

I don’t believe that WLC missed the case the “first time around”…he has been picking at posts and commenting on other’s post, but missed JS’s huge post?

I'm glad to see WLC and JS make cases. I think JimSauce's one has merit, but WLC still kind of comes off as townie for me. Weyouns voting on something ten pages ago is weird, though. It's interesting that other than the three on BaB everyone seems to be working on their own seperate suspicions.

Why does JS case have merit?

CKD - when he does have longer posts that give out his ideas, they are often copies of what other paople have said earlier pages.

please provide an example of this...


++++

General thoughts, I think votes are going to be coming in at the last second, to avoid conversation.

At this point, I will be willing to lynch Amor and WLC

[curiouskarmadog]

I did read it...I thought it was just a break down of the game...please requote what I missed that answers this question.

[curiouskarmadog]

pink, can you please answer my question from 521.

RI, I would like your case against me today please, what was contradictary about my post..why is it scummy that I called someone "stupid", please quote what post you got that from. And explain WHY you wanted to wait until tomorrow to post that remark...out of everyone hear, why do I deserve your vote?

also, can you please give me some post numbers where you have actually scum hunted today?

Still happy with my vote, but might change it to WLC in the next 24 hours.

[curiouskarmadog]

going to reread...

[curiouskarmadog]

post coming today...

[curiouskarmadog]

still rereading....today is going to be interesting in regards to who they attack next and how they defend their action yesterday.

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, I was an easier target than Bab? And other than WLC who else was on my wagon?

Mac, RI has done exact jack to help this town, again, why do you feel like he is town?

Nothing has changed my view of Amor, but WLC silly attack on me for "Clogging" the thread yesterday seeped of scum trying to set up a lynch today but not wanting to be associated with the leading wagon that he knew would flip town. WLC, why must I have been scummy for "clogging" the thread but Bab (who was the worst offender) not scummy?

Amor, I said numerous times that I thought Bab was the VI and that there were far scummier people in this game. Now that you have hung a townie, you are trying to say I am scummy for not being on the wagon..it doesnt work that way. Why are you trying to avoid your responsiblity.

Now, I am not placing a vote right now, because the td kill I find interesting...and need to reread more.

[curiouskarmadog]

I love the saying "if I was scum"

Muerrto, if I meta your scum games...will I find this a lie?

Official Vote Count

Not Voting - 7 (Amor, curiouskarmadog, Macavenger, Muerrto, pinkkitten90, Radio_Interference, WeyounsLastClone)

4 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

umm, did I toss blame or even say you are scummy?

I asked you if my wagon was "easier" than Bab's, which you really havent answered.

you came back with a WIFOM statement, that probably really isnt true...I am just curious why you said it.

[curiouskarmadog]

read it like you did though,

so was my wagon really easier than Bab's?

[curiouskarmadog]

I agree that AMor is scummy (though I think it might be for different reason), I dont agree that he was stretching in regards to BaB being flip floppy...BaB was being flip floppy a good portion of the game..what is the stretch is that Amor stated Bab was scummy for being flip floppy.

Was it RI that called out AMor for fence sitting? If so, that does go in the favor of RI.

I will have to reread Muerrto.

I also think that a reread of pinkkitten might be in order (Pink was in TD's top two suspects yesterday)

I still feel like WLC and AMor are the scummiest

[curiouskarmadog]

Mac, what is your thoughts about WLC's attack yesterday?..he voted me because he said I clogged the thread yesterday and this was an obvious scummy act, yet he didnt attack or vote BaB...why would I be scummy for this yesterday and BaB not?

[curiouskarmadog]

Now you are back tracking. First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative. please explain or post where my play was manipulative? I want to see quotes. It is easy to say the sky is blue, but I little harder to back up the statement... please provide quotes where my play was manipulative.

also please explain why you didnt state my play was manipulative yesterday...this was your case.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy.

Vote curiouskarmadog.

.

nice back tracking...

I would like others to address this too.

[curiouskarmadog]

Now you are back tracking. First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative. please explain or post where my play was manipulative? I want to see quotes. It is easy to say the sky is blue, but I little harder to back up the statement... please provide quotes where my play was manipulative.

also please explain why you didnt state my play was manipulative yesterday...this was your case.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy.

Vote curiouskarmadog.

.

nice back tracking...

I would like others to address this too.

I'm not saying you were directly manipulating town, but in the ckd/BaB discussion I felt you were the more steering one (my post was about I felt you were a bit more manipulative than BaB, not directly the most manipulating scum I've ever seen). You say "First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative." and make it sound they are completely different things, but I think they got together with your actions.

I was steering what exactly? Mostly I was addressing BaB's horrid "evidence" posts....Explain how I was being manipulating...again you ignore my request..post some quotes where I was being manipulative...back up your BS with some actual content..

here is some motivation..

vote WLC

[curiouskarmadog]

you say I am being manipulative..that shoudl be easy to find, or are you just making up words.

[curiouskarmadog]

comments coming in the next couple days...

[curiouskarmadog]

(posting this in all threads)

I am currently battling the fucking flu that is going around and my main computer decided to crash..at any rate, my posts will be light. I have 2-3 games that needs reread and I will get to those as promised. Hoping to have time this weekend to get caught up.

[curiouskarmadog]

keeping up (on the most part, just not a lot of time to reply)...WLC, please feel free to meta my other current games to see if I havent made the same post there...how scummy of you to put that in a negative context for this game. WLC, have you checked my other games before making that comment or are you just talking out of your ass?


...at any rate, I will provide tons of content this weekend.

[curiouskarmadog]

OK, first post a retort to what has been said today…hopefully I can get to what occurred yesterday in a future post, but will probably address some of that in this post. This post will mostly be about my top two suspects today WLC and Amor. I know this is a long post, please don’t skim but read it.

I mostly agree with Mac’s case on Amor. I think there was probably scum on BaB’s wagon. That leaves Muerrto and Amor. As I predicted Amor has resumed his attack on me, even though, yes, he stated he was not as sure. With stating that he isn’t as sure about me today, he has left himself some leeway to jump on a more convincing wagon or attack me has the mood of the game fits his purpose. As demonstrated when WLC present his “case” which I will address later. After “WLC” case, Amor states he agrees with it without pursuing any more information, scum hunting, or even asking questions.

It's also really easy for you to attack it, seeing as how when you replaced in you had the benefit of hindsight.

I think that you attack and lynching of Amor was scummy and I don’t have hindsight.

My perspective is, if we hadn't lynched BaB he would have continued to dominate conversation, and it would distract us from other scum.

I call bullshit on this. There at the end, BaB was not really posting at all. How would he continue you distract us? You let yourself be distracted. Defending yourself for lynching a townie to eliminate a “distraction” is weak and disingenuous.

]Also in 219, Amor mentions BaB flip flopping. I'm really not seeing this. The only real significant case of it up to that point in my mind was the turnaround on Occult, which looked like a normal newbie action to me. He never really went after Amor, and his first real "informed" case was against CKD. Saying he's flip flopping is an exaggeration, in my opinion.

Even CKD agrees that BaB was flip-flopping. Why are you spending so much time defending a dead townie, other than to get town brownie points?

He is not defending a townie and that is a direct mischaracterization of what he is doing. He is attacking your attack stating that BaB was scummy for flip flopping. Why are you trying to deflect here? I agree that BaB was flip floppy, but I also agree that you are suspicious for pushing that has scummy. I am not going to make a big deal out of this point, because in some instances flip flopping can be a scum tell in regards to votes and end-day voting, but BaB was not guilty of that.



-----


WLC on the other hand is so dripping of scum it isn’t even funny. He attacks me yesterday for “clogging the thread” crap. Then will I call him out for not attacking Bab for the same type of thing, he back tracks and says I am being manipulative. He never once addresses he feels I am being manipulative yesterday, but has to add it today once I call him out.

Finally after multiple requests, back tracking, and avoiding WLC is forced to post some content.

Okay, reread the BaB/ckd part, in addition to ckd's other posts. I hope I can organize this well enough to at least show where my suspicious feeling towards ckd comes from.

in the future, can we not list who we think is town. I realize your list was "least to most suspicious", but still it implies who you think is the most town...if everyone did this, I am sure one or two people would pop out as town on everyone's list, thus providing scum with a target Night 1....

He's the first in mafia I saw saying people should not make complete 'least to most suspicious' lists. It's only a logical thing to have some people who you think are scum, and some who you think are town. Discussion doesn't get anywhere, unless you argue why you think some are scummy, while others are not. Dictating people to prevent those lists is what I feel manipulating.

Please quote where I said people should not discuss who they feel is scummy? There is a big difference between arguing who one thinks is town and scum, and just posting a list of the top two scum and the top two town. I never discouraged people discussing who they thought were town. When you discuss who you feel is scummy and someone disagrees, that is a conversation worthy. But when the town posts “town lists” it is a beacon for mafia. In this point, you are trying to change the meaning of my actions. Why? This was not a manipulation, this was a direct request. Please post where I state people should not discuss who they think is scum like you are implying.

Big post. One of the posts that show to me where I feel he's taking control in the discussion, and pressuring BaB. I know it's easy to say now BaB turned up town, and it possibly could have be a discussion between two townies who get more and more frustated, but ckd always came across more confident. And whether or not it's a correct assumption, I'm always suspicious of players who're not backing down, not doubting.

This is a ridiculous statement. First, it is not a manipulation..at all. Second, I was being directly attacked by Bab with silly statements, jumps in logic, and spinning (as it has been noted in many rereads). I was not “backing down” because his statements of “evidence” was just silly. Please explain how I am pressuring BaB in the post you quoted…that doesn’t even make any sense. How was a taking control? I wanted answers to my questions. When someone attacks you with bullshit, you defend. He was obviously the VI and I wanted him to back up his statements. Am I being manipulative when I asked you to quote (back up) where you feel I am being manipulative? Am I taking control when I want you to prove your crap? No. It is easy to say “someone is X” in a short 3 sentence post. Which is exactly what you did, until I asked you repeatedly to back it up..you have yet to back up that I am being manipulative.

it is going to take me hours to reply and pull quotes for BAB crap...and yes, 80% of it appears to be crap, but I think the majority of the town can see that...

Last part I feel is again manipulating town.

After this, it’s a lot of "I’m working on something… I’m busy… I’m going to attack this thread again… working on suspects." I understand you don't have the time, or have difficulty posting (heck, I have the same problem). But it's ridiculous the amount ckd has posted sentences like this without actually following through. The only thing he does is respond to BaB, which feels to me he was using BaB as bait and could use the discussion to come out on top.

How is this manipulating the town? Most people in the reread thought that Bab’s case was crap. Bab himself admitted that his case was craps and full of lies. Bab was even hung for his poor play. Please explain how this was manipulation. Also, it is a blatant LIE, to say the only thing I did was respond to Bab. At one point yesterday, I finally said I have to stop responding to Bab, so I could completely address others I felt was scummy. But all along I was addressing points to and about others. This is why my vote is staying you. This is not a point of view, this is a lie. I WOULD LIKE OTHERS TO ADDRESS THIS AS WELL.

Also I am busy. I hope the God, you are not saying “People who post there are busy a lot in games are scummy” Then I am scummy in every fucking game I am in. I let people know my situation and when to expect content. I wish lurkers would do the samething. Would you rather I just not post and leave everyone out of the loop? The fact you keep pushing this as scummy is sad and weak and demonstrates how you are grasping at anything to push a case.

Also ckd’s stance varied from ‘I think BaB is town’ to ‘either BaB is VI or scum.’ With all his talk about ‘spinning’ day 1, I think ckd himself didn’t do that much different by leaving his opinion on BaB quite open, so he wouldn’t have to take responsibility day 2.

(Again why do I keep saying this) How is this a post about manipulation? Was I really leaving myself open yesterday? DO you really want to push that? Why don’t we actually put that quote in context and review the actual facts.

The quote where I said he is either the VI or the scum was on 04/01, that took place right in the middle of our argument. During the argument Bab displayed his newbie-ness

04/04, I state that Bab was probably town, because of his bold statement. Also on 04/04 I decide not to keep going around and around with Bab, I would however answer direct questions and defend myself, but I felt like it was a waste of time arguing with the VI.

04/08, I say that I thought Bab was a misguided townie.

04/14, After an extremely obnoxious post by Bab I do say he could be the equivalent of a scum VI, but I still push that he is the VI

04/19, I post my case about Amor and place my vote on him. In this post I attack AMor attack on Bab with “even if we lynch him and he is town it is ok”.

05/01, I state that I am only willing to lynch WLC and Amor

05/05, Bab was lynched.

WLC, please explain why you quoted a post from a month before Bab’s lynch to state that I was leaving my opinion open. AGAIN I WANT EVERYONE TO ADDRESS THIS. Was I leaving my opinion “open” or did I state NUMEROUS times yesterday that I thought Bab was a VI and not the lynch. I did not leave my opinion “open” in any way after 04/19..and then it is still stretch. I find it completely scummy that you use a post a month well before Bab’s lynch to say I left myself “open” when that is indeed not how it happened.

Deflecting, answering by posting questions.

You screw up some quote tags here, but you are suggesting that I deflected question by Bib..what question did I deflect that was directed to me…this is the actual quote.

Black,

this is my point, I can pull about 3 different posts where BiB states he either has a good feeling about me, doesnt understand the attack on me, or feels I am protown.

now that some in town have stated suspicion of me, if tune changes without reason.

why all of the sudden am I a scum pair in two out of your 4 scum pairs..with no reason why when several posts before I was protown...what changed?

Nothing changed. My feelings are still pretty much the same on you. BaB asked me for possible scumpairs/strong connections, and I provided pairs based on current and past prominent connections and interactions that made sense to me. Others were left out because their interactions and connections with others in previous posts either A) didn't stand out to me as an important or strong connection or B) were insignificant.

So do you find me scummy or not? IF so, when did that start and why?

Black, what is your opinion of JS, do you still feel like he isn’t taking stances? Also interested in your opinion of RI.

Please point out what question I deflected.

I ask WLC to post where I was manipulative, he fails to do so. Please fact check all my points. WLC is being disingenuous, dishonest, takes quotes completely out of context, hastily puts together a “case” and misquotes somethings to make me looks scummy, and avoids direct requests.

WLC again, please post where I have been manipulative. Please explain to me how me posting “I will post soon” is scummy when I post it in every game. Please explain to me how I was clogging the thread Day 1 and HOW that was scummy. Also please address on my points in this post…


WLC is scum..and my vote will stay here...more to come as I have time.

[curiouskarmadog]

ugh, it occured to me that I havent addressed everything "today" yet...more to come.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry for the big post, but WLC did a lot of scummy things.

I like WLC's case on CKD, but I'll try and get a reread in before I put down a vote.

really which parts in particular?

So, after a lot of quote pyramids, raging, back tracking, walls of text, and feces-slinging...

FoS Curiouskarmadog

Sorry CKD, but I don't want to excuse Boggzie's play, yet. He was scummy imo, and though you may not be, I don't want to vote you yet because he may have acted like scum whule you're not.

The reread was wrong, just in case I'll read CKD's post to see if there's any connection.

Wait a minute, you are FoSing me and you haven’t thoroughly read the thread yet? (noted) Please quote where I back tracked on ANYTHING. Also explain why “walls of text” and “quote pyramids” are scummy. Especially in this game.

And I'm really sorry that ckd has the flu, but he's again resorting to 'rereading', and not posting content.

lucky me shitting my brains out and coughing up vital organs on a Friday night responding to this crap..(ha, a pun)..anyway, you say I am scummy for posting too much and "clogging the thread" and now you want to push that I am scummy because I am not posting enough....I am not "resorting" to anything...which is it? Am I scummy for posting too much or not enough?

Ok that is enough. Gamma’s entrance into the game doesn’t impress me. Gamma, your thoughts on why TD had pink as his top two suspects?

ok, will post about yesterday's events when I get time..it shouldnt be anywhere as big as my last big post.

Official Vote Count

Amor - 2 (Macavenger, Harvey Pew)

WeyounsLastClone - 1 (curiouskarmadog)

Not Voting - 4 (Amor, Gamma, Muerrto, WeyounsLastClone)

4 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

HA..Amor with a big post too..so much reading, I think there is going to be bitching..but PLEASE to not skim my post and case about WLC.

[curiouskarmadog]

Amor,

“CKD attacks JimSauce for trying to set up 2 lynches by saying that two people are acting scummy, but probably aren't scumbuddies... this makes no sense to me, and seems like a way to get people not to attack him when BaB flips town because that would make them look scummy.”

If someone says there are two bottles of water they are considering drinking the other I want to throw way. One is probably filled with nasty scummy water and the other good water. If I drink one bottle and it comes up that it is good water, then the other must be scummy so lets throw it away.

That is setting up a lynch.


“CKD - I read this thread part way before getting my PM and I had Bogzie pegged as scum. "
Why would getting your role PM change this, unless you were scum?”

Where did I say this?

[curiouskarmadog]

so your Fos was a joke?..(confused)

[curiouskarmadog]

Amor, again, you avoid my questions, why? what part of WLC case against me do you agree with? did you read my case against WLC?

[curiouskarmadog]

harvey your thoughts on my WLC case?

[curiouskarmadog]

post coming on Friday...

[curiouskarmadog]

curiouskarmadog (rep. Boggzie)

Looking back at CKD's posts, he seems pretty scummy. He falls right into my point about pushing for BaB's lynch. He was never really clear on whether he thought BaB was town or not, but spent a good portion of the game arguing against him and attacking him. Now he is saying that my attack of BaB was scummy, when he said he was maybe scum several times. Also, he's very defensive whenever he's attacked. Good chance of him being scum. I do think his case on me is genuine, though, even if I know it's wrong.

Really, I thought I stated NUMEROUS times yesterday that BaB was not the lynch of the day. I didnt attack him as much as I defended against his crappy attacks. Labelling that as "defensive" is a joke. Also, if you think I am scum, please explain how may case against you is genuine?

Small note. I started a large 25 person game AFTER this one. It's on the last day now. Day 4...

So?

harvey your thoughts on my WLC case?

I see you two clawing at each other and you come across as kinda desperate. I don't think either of you are presenting a great case and this concentration is just... odd.

Based on the voting, it does not seem you are convincing anyone else of your righteousness and the same goes for WLC.

please quote where I am "kinda desperate"? Then explain how that is desperate.

I call bullshit on this. There at the end, BaB was not really posting at all. How would he continue you distract us? You let yourself be distracted. Defending yourself for lynching a townie to eliminate a “distraction” is weak and disingenuous.

Calling bullshit on

this

. Other than when he "stepped away from the game", BaB was still posting a ton, and most of other peoples' posts were either responding to him or discussing him. It really looks like you're just disagreeing with me here for the sake of disagreeing with me.

Again, he wasn’t posting. I think it is incredibly scummy when someone says they lynch someone because they were distracted. YOU LET YOURSELF BE DISTRACTED! Why didn’t you pursue any other conversation? Why didn’t you scum hunt? Why did you let yourself be distracted?

CKD, you seem to only go after people after they go after you, with WLC being the most blatant example, but you seemed to attack me more every time I accused you of something.

Interesting comment here. Do you know that you are lying, or you just hoping that no one fact checks? Between you and I..who attacked who first Amor?...Who thought who was scummy first, since I have been in this game?

You mentioned no suspicion of WLC on Day 1

Another lie. Post 566, 521, 440..and I am sure there is more…

unvote, vote Amor

..moving to the lying stage IS a desperate act.

+++
Muerrto and Gamma’s vote on Harvey look silly. Why at this point in the game is that a good play?

[curiouskarmadog]

post coming Thursday or Friday.

[curiouskarmadog]

Replying to post 730.

Amor, I might have waffled on BaB because he was constantly attacking me worthless crap. I did however, MANY times state he was not the lynch of the day and by the end of the day I was close to certain he was idiot town. I also stated that there were many others that were more scummy than BaB..WHY DO YOU KEEP FORGETTING THAT? Why are you trying to make me look scummy, WHEN YOU were the one that lynched BaB? You are trying to compare my thoughts on BaB with your position on me today. The big difference? I stated BaB was not the lynch yesterday. You on the other hand are leaving yourself open to jump my wagon if it develops. You have not taken a firm stance on me, and I believe that you are doing this because you want some flexibility with your vote. Yesterday I said I only would vote for you or WLC…Again, how scummy of you to say your flimsy stance today and my VERY FIRM stances closer to the end of yesterday were similar. They were not.

In the original point you said BaB was not really posting at all at the end, which is a lie. Do you concede that?

This was not a lie, anyone can go back to see that BaB was not posting anywhere close to the same frequency that he was at the beginning of the game. Why are you pushing that this is a lie when it indeed is not? What are you hoping to gain?

but people like you and JimSauce (now Macavenger) who spent a lot of your time discussing him but didn't vote him could be accused of not scumhunting.

this is why I think you are scum. You are changing the facts. I was not discussing BaB, I was defending myself against his attacks. Anyone reading the thread can see this. Amor, do you really want to push that I wasn’t scum hunting yesterday? You are truly a liar if you want to push this….

But whosever fault it was, the topic of discussion always seemed to come back to BaB, and if you want to blame that on anyone you have to blame most of the town on that and not just me.

Who keeps bringing it up today?

We can't play as though everyone is a perfect town player and those who aren't are scum, especially in a newbie game. Obviously if that were the case we wouldn't have lynched town yesterday.

I didn’t lynch town yesterday, you did.

Interesting comment here. Do you know that you are lying, or you just hoping that no one fact checks? Between you and I..who attacked who first Amor?...Who thought who was scummy first, since I have been in this game?

You expressed suspicion of me first, admittedly... I may have been slightly exaggerating, but you didn't agressively attack me until I began suspecting you.

Another example how he lies then backtracks. He states I didn’t attack him, until he attacked me…WHICH WAS A LIE. I call him on it, and now he has to back track and says he was “exaggerating”. Nice. Ask yourself this, who has to “exaggerate” to push a case against someone? Scum..or a very poor player…which are you Amor?

Also, don't you see how posts like this:

really two weeks? I havent posted any big posts for two weeks? I havent provided any long posts with content in two weeks? you really want to keep pushing that amor? I think that if you compare my posts versus your posts in this game since I replaced in your will find a huge difference in content and posting.

I need time to reread thoroughly and post my case...

if you meta, you will find that I have posted in SEVERAL threads that I need to reread and will post something soon...I am keeping up with the thread, but havent had the time to do more than that...I will get to it in the next couple of days.

are launching an attack on someone (well you aren't posting either, are you huh? huh?) in a very agressive manner in direct response to their suspicion?

This was aggressive because you LIED again…or maybe you prefer the term “exaggerate”. You were saying that I was lurking, when a.) it wasn’t true. And b.) I actually had placed more content into the game than yourself. What I find funny (and this post reminded me of this) You tired to say I was scummy yesterday for not posting, but than agreed with WLC’s case that I was trying to clog the thread…you are stretching for anything and everything to try to say I am scummy..now which is it Amor, was I lurking or clogging the thread…which bullshit do you want to go with now?

You mentioned no suspicion of WLC on Day 1

Another lie. Post 566, 521, 440..and I am sure there is more…

Okay, I forgot about those, but they were all after WLC voted you... so my point still stands.

Again I call you out on a lie, and you back track and say you forgot about those?..MORE BULLSHIT. No, one of your points was that I didn’t have any suspicion of WLC Day 1…if I hadn’t of stood up for myself, you would have continued to push a lie. How many times do you plan to do this today? Why do you keep "exaggerating"?

unvote, vote Amor

..moving to the lying stage IS a desperate act.

You're doing it again...

Beautiful…I have never seen a player imply that someone was scummy, when they call someone out for lying. You have lied numerous times today, but you want to push that I am the scummy one.

+++

I find Muerrto's behavior really condescending. He only seems to defend himself by 'If I'm scum, I wouldn't do such and so stupid.' Saying lynchees cause themselves to be lynched, placing almost no responsibilities on the rest of the town. And now he's keeping from voting. He wants us to discuss, he wants things to happen, but I see his behavior as trying to be careful, because he doesn't want to draw more attention to himself.

On another note, great that finally someone seems to understand my position concerning ckd (as by Amor's post).

I really think a ckd/Muerrto pair is the most likely at this moment.

if that is true, why are you not voting him? He is closer to a lynch than I? surely you want us to believe you are trying to lynch scum. You cant be wanting to have more discussion today because you are not bringing anything to the table. This is why I am having a problem with my Amor vote today. WLC. This is a classic example of a scum partner throwing suspicion on his buddy, to buy town cred's tomorrow while a.) not voting for the buddy himself and b.) setting up a lynch tomorrow.

for this to work though, WLC and Muerrto has to be scum together..thus making Amor town...what I am having problem with his AMor's constant lies and the back tracking.

WLC, why havent you voted Muerrto yet, if you think he is my scum partner?

No, WLC doesn't post a whole lot, never has. It's called played with him before.

Meta him. Null tell.

WLC hasn’t jumped on Muerrto’s radar, WLC thinks that Muerrto is scum, but doesn’t vote him..

unvote

need answers to my questions.

[curiouskarmadog]

muerrto, why do you think WLC thinks you are scum, but doesnt vote you?

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, have you been reading the game? Lurking has little to nothing to do with my case against WLC.

Mac, has not hit my radar...I think he thinks you are scum...and this entire thread has been nothing but lurkers...if a lurker case can not be pushed against WLC, then it can not be pushed against anyone. The biggest difference though between everyone else and WLC, is that WLC has posted just enough to not get replaced.

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

[curiouskarmadog]

WLC hasn’t jumped on Muerrto’s radar, WLC thinks that Muerrto is scum, but doesn’t vote him..

unvote

need answers to my questions.

What are you implying here? That Muerrto and I are a scumpair? Or just trying me to get to vote for Muerrto?

I think it is pretty obvious what I am implying here, or are you just asking rhetorical questions?

And you seem to redirect all your questions to Muerrto, try to get recognition by him? I'm not sure you're trying to get him on your side, or if it could be a charade.

How exactly am I trying to get Muerrto on my side with my post…please explain that theory. Also, if I am a scum pair with Muerrto (as you have stated 2-3 times now)..why am I trying to get him on my side?

That I think Muerrto is suspicious, doesn't mean I don't find you suspicious anymore. In fact, I think you're still the most suspicious in this game, that's why my vote is still on you. Sorry that I didn't mention your name that much lately, though, but I was just trying to focus on other things rather than tunnel visioning on you.

I love how you avoided my question. If you think that Muerrto and I area scum pair, WHY have you not voted him. I know you think I am more suspicious, but if we are both scum, what does it matter? Do you think that Mueerto and I are a scum pair or do you just think Muerrto and I are scummy…there is a difference that need to be clarified NOW…so stop avoiding it. Now that Mac and Muerrto are tied for votes...shouldnt you be trying to get scum lynched? I am calling bullshit, on your CKD/Muerrto are a scum pair. Your actions do not back up your words.

Now I am just not sure if you are not voting him because you dont want to be tied to a town lynch, or if you are a scum pair..

Vote weyounnslastclone

Lately I feel I've picked up with adding to this thread. I've could just as well respond to prods, and not post anything, because I think that wouldn't get you replaced either. At least half of my posts don't say 'reading', 'post coming thursday/friday', etc.

I haven’t been prodded once. You have posted just enough to not get replaced. And Again, do you want to compare my content and contribution into this game to yours? Also, Muerrto thinks that your lurking is a null tell, your thoughts on his meta of you?

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

Yes. Why? Because the scum knew he was town and decided they could use that the next day to start a witch hunt. Unless Amor is sooo bad to keep his vote on somone all day, and I know I'm not, and the night kill's verified. So, Yes. I don't think scum touched the BaB lynch.

Without the deadline, definitely. But with the deadline, they didn't need to.

so scum wouldnt keep there vote on someone all day? Why?

[curiouskarmadog]

CKD, do you think the scumpair might be Muerrto/WLC? I'm kinda starting to see some links in that direction, what with Muerrto backpedalling his pretty clear defenses of WLC, along with WLC's non-voting suspicion of Muerrto you pointed out. The problem of course being that I still agree with you that Amor is pretty scummy.

not until the last couple pages could I see a Muerrto/WLC pairing. I am getting scummy vibes off both WLC and Amor, thus my only wanting to lynch one of the two yesterday and my votes today. However, WLC reactions (or lack there of) to Muerrto (and vica versa) certianly could indicate a pairing between the two. At the present time, I am not willing to place a vote on Muerrto, but this could change. I feel like WLC is the lynch today. I am not seeing a Muerrto/Amor pairing (at this moment)..not sure why, just a vibe.

Again, I would like Muerrto to comment on my case against WLC..I dont think he has read it, because he keeps saying the "lurker case" is a bad one, which really has nothing to do with my case against WLC.

Official Vote Count

Macavenger - 2 (Amor, Muerrto)

Muerrto - 3 (Harvey Pew, Gamma, Macavenger)

curiouskarmadog - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
WeyounsLastClone - 1 (curiouskarmadog)

Not Voting - 0

4 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

I would still be pushing hard (though apparently no one is listening, which remind me end game to ask "why"?) for an Amor lynch, if every post from WLC didnt look scummy. The obvious link between WLC and Muerrto is interesting, but means little until we know the alignment of one of the two. The way WLC is suggesting that a.) muerrto is looking scummy and b.) he probably scum with me, is very interesting provided his lack of vote....to me, it does look like he wants to wait to see if the town will really lynch Muerrto and hammer to buy himself some town creds, then continue his attack on me tomorrow. IF he were to vote right now, he wouldnt have as much town cred tomorrow...so I think he is settling on throwing suspicion at Muerrto until the time is right....now I have said all of this, I sure everything will change..we will just have to wait.

on the other hand Muerrto could be town, then the interaction between WLC and Muerrto mean little.

Amor's poor play is confusing. He fails to remember lynching BaB yesterday for the same type of crap. Lying, exaggerating to push a case, convienently forgetting to fact check, back tracking...BaB, I felt was just a VI and insane (real life)...one could tell by his faulty jumps in logic and description of "evidence". Amor, on the other hand, seems to be intelligent and thought out...he doesnt have an excuse, to be pulling the crap he is doing. To me he is just throwing the crap out there, hoping people will buy it with out actually looking things up...

that is scummy...who needs to exaggerate or not fact check when trying to build a case?

so I support a lynch of either...leaning WLC at the moment.

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto, are you of the opinion that no scum was on the BaB lynch?

Yes. Why? Because the scum knew he was town and decided they could use that the next day to start a witch hunt. Unless Amor is sooo bad to keep his vote on somone all day, and I know I'm not, and the night kill's verified. So, Yes. I don't think scum touched the BaB lynch.

Without the deadline, definitely. But with the deadline, they didn't need to.

so scum wouldnt keep there vote on someone all day? Why?

Because it's horribly blatant? OMG you gotta be kidding.

wow, if scum stayed in your little box you have put them in, they would be so easy to spot.

[curiouskarmadog]

And your case on WLC has ALWAYS been a lurker case. Read what I said please. You STARTED with a lurker case, then you started arguing with each other, claiming so and so twisted this and that, semantics, blah blah, twisting, blah blah, obv scum blah blah But it all started with lurking. You can't bring a weak case on someone and then expect them not to refute it.

Also CKD, what do you think of Mac's latest post with my 'flip flopping'? Is there a reason for townies to distort posts?

it has not been just a lurker case..will have to repost it, when I have time...I dont think you have "flip flopped" as much as you have changed your mind..will have to reveiw your votes and when you changed them to be sure...I DO however think it is scummy to distort..which is why I am having a problem with AMor...I dont see make as distorting...please quote what he feel is distorting, and why you feel that it is distorting.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok, so I have a post coming tomorrow...can we not lynch anyone until then.

and Harvey just shot up several pegs on the scum ladder...you dont think that Muerrto is scum, but you placed a vote on him and now you wont remove it? Harvery who do you think is scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

there is nothing pro-town about this statement. Harvey is stating here that he is joining a lynch that he doesnt agree with so when you flip town, he has a target tomorrow...that is pro-town?

that looks like a lynch set up too me...I would rather fucking it scum today so we are not in LYLO tomorrow...which Harvey did not seem to mention in his post.

anyway, I got to go...will post replies tomorrow.

But, as Muerrto is reckoning, I'm not entirely convinced he is scum and I voted for him out of (mild) animus not scum detecteringness (now there is a compound word!).

However, I think I will leave my vote where it is. If Muerrto

is

lynched as a townie then his arguments become gold and the next day's lynch target is

really

obvious.

[curiouskarmadog]

you can see how I have problems with this scenario, seeing that my two biggest scum suspects are neither of those two.

If Muerrto does flip town, I dont think the next lynch is very obvious at all....and I will raise an eye brow to anyone that suggests such.

Harvey, if you dont have the patience for this game..you should replace out. But anyone who keeps a vote on someone that they dont think is scum, and then makes suggestions of who will be best lynch tomorrow when person X flips town..is either a very poor town player or impatient scum.

unvote.

this puts both amor and WLC is a different light.

[curiouskarmadog]

However, I think I will leave my vote where it is. If Muerrto

is

lynched as a townie then his arguments become gold and the next day's lynch target is

really

obvious.

I am not seeing a either or comparsion...I am seeing, if Muerrto is lynched and he flips town, then we should follow his case...just because Muerrto could flip town, doesnt mean his case is correct, it just confirms his motivations wasnt dubious.

[curiouskarmadog]

at any rate, I want to add more to the conversation today (which I will post tomorrow because I will have the time needed)..I suggest Harvey that you remove your -1 vote off someone you dont really think is scum, until I can get my replies to Amor and WLC in.

[curiouskarmadog]

also have other comments as well that I think need pointing out TODAY versus tomorrow when we are at LYLO

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto mentioned lylo, if he is indeed correct, then I want my thoughts to be out today...just in case I am killed tonight, but definitely before tomorrow if we are indeed at lylo...and no gamma I didnt slip up a reveal my role...but interesting that you think I did and you brought it to everyone's attention..how is that protown?

I will have my replies to AMor and WLC tomorrow...and a couple other thoughts..

[curiouskarmadog]

And you seem to redirect all your questions to Muerrto, try to get recognition by him? I'm not sure you're trying to get him on your side, or if it could be a charade.

How exactly am I trying to get Muerrto on my side with my post…please explain that theory. Also, if I am a scum pair with Muerrto (as you have stated 2-3 times now)..why am I trying to get him on my side?

That's why there's an or in that sentence. You could be scum and Muerrto town (trying to get him fall for your attacks against me), or you could be a scumpair, which would make your interaction with Muerrto a charade to distance a bit.

Again you avoid questions. Please explain how I am trying to get Muerrto on my side?

Of course you'd call bullshit on my CKD/Muerrto scum pair, it wouldn't make much sense for you to confirm your status if you're scum

I am calling bullshit on the fact you are trying to push a CKD/Muerrto scum pair..meaning I don’t think you really believe it, because you actions do not match your words.

I'm really not liking how you try to force me in a Muerrto vote, using illogical statements.

I am not trying to “force” you to do anything..and nothing I have said is illogical. You want us to believe that you think CKD/Muerrto are scum together. At the time, Muerrto is tied for votes. If you really thought that Muerrto was scum over Mac who he was tied with, then you should have voted him. That is why I am calling bullshit. You don’t really think I am a scum pair with Muerrto…or you don’t really think that Muerrto is scum. Your actions do not match you words, which is a huge scum tell. If you really don’t believe this (that I and Muerrto are a scum pair), I want to know why you said it. If you really believe it, I want to know why you didn’t vote Muerrto, but stated that you thought he was scummy. So what you think I am scummier, you think my partner is Muerrto (as you have stated)..why not get rid of my scum partner when you had a chance, versus just stating you think we are a scum pair.

The only good point you have is that my vote at this moment doesn't have much meaning. But then you end with

Vote weyounnslastclone

and I could repeat your own question 'Now that Mac and Muerrto are tied for votes...shouldnt you be trying to get scum lynched?' Or do you know something we don't?

I am, at the moment, neither are leading on who I think is scum. Why would I vote either at this point? You on the other hand want to push that Muerrto and I are a scum pair, so YOU answer the question now…again, “I think you are scummier than Muerrto” is not an answer, if you really want us to believe you think we are a scum pair.

If you can show me content where you really did something townie, then yeah, i'd be interested in that.

What a silly request. The protownness of my actions will not be shown true until everyone’s alignment is known. I have been scum hunting all game...what have you done? Have you even pushed a reasonable case against me that has made sense? You have done very little this game…why? Being lazy and “I lurk in all games” is not an excuse.

Actually, the only game I've been scum (my first game), I think was the game where I posted most actively of all my games.

thanks for the WLC guide to "when I am scum"..surely WLCscum, wouldnt break that mold

now for Amor’s bigger response.

Official Vote Count

Macavenger - 2 (Amor, Muerrto)

Muerrto - 1 (Harvey Pew)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)

Not Voting - 3 (curiouskarmadog, Gamma, Macavenger)

4 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

You have, however, said "I said BaB was town" many times though, so I guess that's close. You evidently thought (if you were town) that I was scummier than BaB, in which case it would be fair to vote for me over him. However, you certainly weren't saying he was definitely town.

I'm not "trying to make you look scummy", you're doing a good enough job of that by yourself. And lay off the "you lynched a townie" card already, mislynches happen, and it's ridiculous to say that everyone who's responsible for a townie lynch is scum.
I did state that BaB could be scum, but toward the end of the day (as I stated today and yesterday) I thought he was just idiot town. I did think you were scummier than BaB yesterday..thus my actions.

I did think that BaB was scummy at times. Especially given his attacks. At one point, during that exchange it became hard for me to believe that BaBscum would keep pushing lies and jumps in assumptions as a case. Could scum do that, yes..do I think BaBscum was doing it doubtful. As I have stated numerous times today and yesterday I thought he was just idiot town. I did think your action were scummier, as stated. The only reason I brought up “you lynched a townie” is because you are trying to make me look scummy through my interaction with BaB, but completely forgetting the fact that you actually was the one that lynched him, not me. Mislynches happen, yes, but it is not a mislynch if you are scum.

You still haven't explained what the pro-town thing for me to do here was. Since going after you would be springing the second part of my trap, and backing off of you is leaving myself open for future bandwagons, what would you expect a pro-town player to do in this situation?

You have a point here. Because I have had scummy vibes coming off you since I entered this game, it is quite possible that I am tunnel visioning on you. I see scum when you set up lynches yesterday…I see scum when you leave yourself open today. I concede this point. One of my problem with you, is that I am not certain why you are pushing I am scummy. I haven’t really seen a case from you that has one good point in it. You seem wishy washy on me today…you think I am scum…state a case 3-5 points will be fine.

I would ask you the same questions about my alleged lies. BaB was in fact posting frequently in the last few pages of Day 1. He certainly wasn't posting "barely at all".

I have a feeling this point will end up in some sort of semantics war. It is a fact that BaB was posting (at the end of the day) no where near the frequency that he was when he entered the game. When he did post it lack length and content. So “barely at all” is not a lie. But lets say for an instance, I was deviously trying to lie about this point. For what fucking purpose? Anyone can go back to see if I am lying or not. If this is a sticking point to your case that I am scum..I can do back (and waste my time) to do a post frequency analysis of BaB for you. But I think you know what I will find. This is my I think you are scummy today, you keep pushing bullshit like this.

Hell, discussing him isn't particularly scummy, but the fact that you're trying to deny this is another scummy action.

Jesus Christ..another semantic thing. I was defending myself from BaB’s attacks…in the process I did “discuss BaB”. What you are trying to portray (and I can quote your post again if need) that all I did yesterday was sit around and discuss BaB…which was not true.

I forgot about your earlier suspicions, okay? The point remains that you didn't start pushing a case on me and attacking me agressively until I started suspecting you, and you didn't start suspecting WLC at all until he voted you.

No it is not ok..you back track and “exaggerate” to prove a point. Who does that? If I feel like someone is scummy, I reread and check my points when I present a case to make sure I am correct. You did not bother. And you really don’t have a point. You are making it look like I attacked WLC BECAUSE he voted me. Which is untrue. I attacked him because HOW HE ATTACKED me. Lets say someone says (lies) you are a guilty of murder because you drove the car that hit the victim. But you didn’t drive the car. You wouldn’t attack them back for lying? You wouldn’t think they were “scum” because they are lying. Or lets say someone pushes that you a guilty because you owned the car and painted it red…you wouldn’t attack them for their silly ass case?

You point is timing…which is not a point in this circumstance.

The reason I find such agressive defense scummy is because it basically casts suspicion on anyone trying to accuse you, and discourages others from attacking you because they too will be attacked. This is generally anti-town (

town can attack other town, as you are well aware.

)

Didn’t you start to attack me once I threw suspicion on you? Also please address the bolded…what did you mean here?

You were doing what you accused BaB of doing in spinning, assuming my motives behind a post and stating them as facts. How do you know that they weren't simple mistakes? You are doing a lot of name-calling and similar attacks in this game.

Mistakes like the reasoning behind you felt BaB was scum? Other than calling you a liar and BaB an idiot town (which we all include BaB agreed), what name calling have I done..please post…or, are you just exaggerating again?

I am now pretty sure curiouskarmadog is scum

Please present a case as to why….3-5 points (dont give me the crap that you already have)..because you haven’t…you have just “exaggerated”, made "mistakes", back tracked, and pushed worthless points.

Now to other points

[curiouskarmadog]

Mac and Gamma, did you address Harvey’s recent statements about Muerrto, alignment, and lynching?

One point I wanted to bring up is this

My second suspect right now is pinkkitten90, mainly for the fact that she replaced cerebus3 (who did a great effort to distract from BridgesAndBaloons) and lied (or at least overexaggerated greatly) about `being almost lynched as cop because of being female.'

TD was all over BaB and cerebus/pink yesterday. I thought I remember TD saying this yesterday but it took me awhile to find this quote. Now all this is WIFOM. Understand I am not pushing this as a case, but it should be considered. I was trying to figure out why TD was offed last night. IF WLC was scum, I figured he would have taken me out last night without getting too much heat today for…Amor couldn’t really though. I really thought after BaB flipped town I would have been killed. So why TD over me. As far as I can tell, TD didn’t say anything that looked like a power role. The only other suspect that TD aggressively attacked while here was pink/cerebus.

Gamma (pink’s replacement) as following Mac around all day. One scum trait that I have found is following or buddying up. I don’t think that Gamma has buddied with Mac, per say, but he has followed.

Gamma, would like to hear your thoughts on Mac and Merrto’s point that you have been following him around.

[curiouskarmadog]

going to be gone friday until monday, should be posting again on Tuesday...posting in all games.

[curiouskarmadog]

Muerrto is back to -1.

Gamma your thoughts on Harvey's posts yesterday?

[curiouskarmadog]

if Muerrto flips town, who do you think is the obvious lynch he is talking about?

[curiouskarmadog]

and you are completely fine with this..or you are just THAT certian that Muerrto is scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

back earlier than expected..it is going to take me a couple days to get caught up on all my games...few notes though

Gamma was town?...interesting..I actually thought I would be killed last night.

Harvey..remove the vote, IMMEDIATELY..I know this is a newbie game, but really, but we are in lylo...that being said, it looks like everyone has checked in today ...which means that it is VERY doubtful that Amor and WLC are scum together. It also increases the possibility that either Harvey or Mac (or both?)are scum...I also note a lie in post 855 in regards to Harvey's vote on Muerrto..you voted Muerrto why?..that is not what you said yesterday.

I am putting this game to the top of my list and should be able to post more Monday or Tuesday.

[curiouskarmadog]

I can't think of better proof that Mac is scum.

really?..this cant have any other meaning?

[curiouskarmadog]

also, harvey...you did not address my question to you from post 857, please do so now.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, harvey...you did not address my question to you from post 857.

You are mistaken. I stated earlier that I voted for him out of "(mild) animus" and I later said I voted him because he "ticked [me] off". The meaning is effectively identical and there are no

reasonable

grounds to claim I lied -

except to try and discredit my vote

.

You said that you voted him out of mild animus two weeks after your vote on him.

And I voted for Muerrto because I was ticked off at him, not to get things moving.

For you to say that you did not vote Muerrto to get things moving, is a lie!

Ah... erm... well... you see I'm stuck with something of a quandary. I'm a little impatient and this game is really dragging (just check its Activity Constant and see) so any activity, e.g. a lynch, is good. But, as Muerrto is reckoning, I'm not entirely convinced he is scum and I voted for him out of (mild) animus not scum detecteringness (now there is a compound word!).

However, I think I will leave my vote where it is. If Muerrto

is

lynched as a townie then his arguments become gold and the next day's lynch target is

really

obvious.

You state that you are not even convinced he is scum, and you comment on the acticity and how the game is dragging. You really suspect anyone to swallow that?

So don’t you even pull that crap about I am trying to discredit you...I am quoting your post word for word. I even called you out yesterday for being impatient and/or a poor player. You helped lynch Muerrto and stated that if he is town, you know where your vote will go next….classic example of setting up a lynch. No protown player would come out with a vote at Lylo.

Speaking of LYLO, this particular position gives us some statistical information. It is highly likely that there are:

1-2 scum in this group A: Harvey, Mac

And

0-1 scum in this group B: Myself, WLC, Amor.

Again, I say that it is highly likely, meaning that there is a possibility that there are two scum in group B. WLC and AMor could be scum together, waiting to get online together at the same time…although, I have gotten big scum vibes off both the past couple days, it is very damn doubtful that they are scum together.

I want everyone to comment on my Group theory. Especially Harvey and Mac.

Harvey I don’t care if you are an impatient player…like I told you yesterday, if you have a problem with it, replace out (if I didn’t I should have).

…more to come tomorrow.

[curiouskarmadog]

I refer you to the above paragraph. You are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. If I made a dumb mistake the game would be over and the mafia would have won. It is solely the fact the the scum are desperately claiming I am not town that is clouding a

perfect

play.

stop pushing this as fact. for it is not fact..it is not obvious that what you have done is a town move..the only thing you have proven by your actions is that most likely wlc, amor, and I are not in a scum group that is all. SO you didnt help lynch Muerrto? You didnt state that his lynch would provide us information that would help us today? You didnt vote Muerrto though you felt he wasnt scum? However, exact is that not helping?

WLC, do not blame your Muerrto vote on me. You were the one that wanted everyone to believe that Muerrto was a scum care...I just commented on how your words did not match your actions. If you didnt feel like Muerrto was scum, you shouldnt have voted him.

Amor, I would not rule out that Harvey and Mac are in the same scum group so quickly, I have used the same gambit to win a newbie game as mafia, though, I wasnt bad enough to do it at LYLO..However the way that Harvey is trying to push his opinion as common knowledge and fact..the way he set up the lynch..the way that he placed his vote at LYLO without care...reeks of newbie scum

my vote will probably go on Harvey today...

[curiouskarmadog]

the way that he placed his vote at LYLO without care...reeks of newbie scum

my vote will probably go on Harvey today...

The vote

was

placed with care. It was a risk - I could have lost the game for the town - but I was prepared to take it. In Lylo it eventually comes down to taking that chance - if a townie votes wrong then the town has lost. The fact I was prepared to do so immediately appears to have annoyed/suprised some people, but all the subsequent discussion following my coup is just repeatedly proving to me that the other townies don't know who the scum are. So if I had sat back and let the discussion proceed I have no confidence the right person would have been targeted.

Help kill Mac and then we can have some proper fun trying to tie down his accomplice.

two notes here...

1.) if you really thought that Mac was scum, why not wait to see what he says and who he votes for?..why are you not trying to scum hunt and help the crowd.

2.) your last comment to me, sort of sounds like you know I am town...how do you know I am town?

[curiouskarmadog]

Harvey..you have not done anything today that is protown or in any means helpful.

please explain to me if you want to scum hunt, why couldnt you wait to vote Mac?

[curiouskarmadog]

can we hold off on votes please?

Mac, who do you think that Harvey's scum partner is and why?
Harvey, who do you think that Mac's scum partner is and why?

[curiouskarmadog]

also, it should be obvious at this point.

if we have any cops (and I am doubtful that we do)..now is the time to come forward with those investigations.

Official Vote Count

Macavenger - 1 (Harvey Pew)
Harvey Pew - 1 (Macavenger)

Not Voting - 3 (Amor, curiouskarmadog, WeyounsLastClone)

3 to Lynch

[curiouskarmadog]

not to mention he is refusing to post, unless someone else votes...

so now he is actively against scum hunting..

90% sure I will be voting Harvey today..just not yet.

[curiouskarmadog]

hmmm, now it looks to be a waiting game....interested in Amor and WLC thoughts about what Mac had to say, and Harvey's refusal to scum hunt.

[curiouskarmadog]

his post seems slanted. I know he thinks that I am town, but I am curious why. I could see both scum and town saying this. Scum because he wants me to vote Harvey (who could be scum or town) or because if he is lynched, it really sets me up to be his scum buddy tomorrow.

Town, because most town tend to be paranoid. He mentions Amor and WLC because both have at one point thought he was scummy and one tends to think people are scum (especially new players) when they are attacked by that player.

His post looks like it is just breaking down the game and providing his opinion...scum hunting? maybe...but I think that I would have liked to seen some questions come out of that post.

Mac, any reason in particular you feel I am town?

as for Harvey...his play is very anti-town...there is no way anyone could be that sure coming into Lylo..Harvey doesnt seem to care who Mac's "scum partner" is...why would a townie do that?

[curiouskarmadog]

will address posts in 24-48

[curiouskarmadog]

his post seems slanted. I know he thinks that I am town, but I am curious why.

What about it seems slanted, just the fact that I came up with the conclusion that you're likely to be town? Or do you find any major flaws in my analysis of Amor and WLC?

slanted, because the one person who doesnt suspect you is town..and the two people who have said you might be scum, you suspect.

What questions did I need to ask? Keep in mind, from my perspective I have an advantage you don't - I have a confirmed scum. All I have to do is work out who his buddy is. The connections are all out there to trace, and if I ask any questions about them, obviously Amor/WLC are going to say no, he's not my buddy, and that's not why we did that.

the only reason you might have confirmed scum is because WLC/Amor/myself have not swooped in to hammer. From my perspective I am not certian that you are not scum....yes, I am leaning Harvey (more so than ever because is lack of scum hunting today), but he could be just a bad new player (town). I have seen many of those in my short year here...

then there is the possibility that you two are scum together...but who knows.

anyway, I wanted you to ask more questions of everyone....maybe ask them to present cases against/for...thier thoughts on Harvey's play..something else. I understand you want us to believe you think you have confirmed scum, but you should be trying to get as much information today about his partner as you can. I sort of put you in the same boat as Harvey in that regard.

[curiouskarmadog]

I would like to see more posts from Amor/WLC....who ironically both stated that I always made posts stating I was away so that I could lurk.

[curiouskarmadog]

right now, the game has the feel everybody is waiting around to see who (wlc,amor,myself) does what first...I will wait till amor post something with content before making a final decision...it appears that WLC is doing the same.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok checking in now..see that Amor has voted.

really thought AMor was going to vote for Mac. Now, I have been mentioning all day that I was going to vote Harvey (and WLC has mentioned it too), did that affect Amor vote? Is he trying to buy town cred with this vote? Dont know... If it was a Amor/Harvey scum team, Amor could have easily voted Mac today and not look to suspicious and hoped that WLC or myself would drop the hammer...I think this is doubtful though, but not impossible.

I think I am going to hammer, Harvey.

I really think that Harvey's play was scummy yesterday..and today was even worse..

I am pretty sure he is scum

vote(hammer) Harvey

if I am right, we are moving on

if I am wrong, I dont think that it was the Amor/Mac(JS) or WLC/Mac combo play that won it for mafia, but the horrid Harvey play that screwed the town. If we lose, I contribute it (mostly) to Harvey's bad play

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok harvey, you have been hammered..anything you want to say?

[curiouskarmadog]

god dammit..Harvey, that was the worst damn play I have ever seen...I got to quit replacing into newbie games.

[curiouskarmadog]

should have went with my gut on WLC..of course, I had the same feeling about Amor..but I was right about BaB and Muerrto.

[curiouskarmadog]

had a better read off JS...had feeling about him, but once Mac came in, I didnt get the read anymore.

WLC on the other hand I should have followed my gut on. But Harvey's extremely poor set up lynch yesterday, and attack today without any conversation and refusing to scum hunt, just blew me away.

[curiouskarmadog]

it wasnt just the lurking (when I said my case against him wasnt about lurking I meant it).

[curiouskarmadog]

I didnt have a problem with your posting style (though I know many that will, most will be scum trying to find a reason to lynch you). You could have commented more and not lurked to the point of getting replaced.

[curiouskarmadog]

I tried to bring Harvey out and talk the final day but he simply wasnt having it. To be honest though, after his play yesterday..."the game is going to slow, lets lynch Muerrto, when he flips town we lynch Mac" attitude pretty much had me sold on him being scum, it would have taken a lot fo convince me other wise.

questions for WLC/Mac...why did you kill Gamma last night?