Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[JimSauce]

I want to point this out: being a newbie does not mean you cannot have any debate/analysis/scum-hunting skills whatsoever. Age certainly plays a major factor in how "professional" someone looks. A 12-year-old sixth grader who joined a year ago and a 40-year-old lawyer (I've seen 'em!) who joined last weekend may appear strikingly similar in terms of mafiascum ability.

Official Vote Count

BridgesAndBaloons - 2 (Amor, td)

Amor - 1 (curiouskarmadog)
Muerrto - 1 (JimSauce)

Not Voting - 5 (BridgesAndBaloons, cerebus3, Muerrto, Radio_Interference, WeyounsLastClone)

5 to Lynch

[Muerrto]

TGIF. Tomorrow's my saturday so hopefully I'll do my re-read tomorrow and post(finally have net at home!)

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Ok so here we go. THis is going to be a ridiculously massive post. I'll try to add in some pauses, maybe some humour, or something else in to make it readable.
I'll probably break it up into several different posts to make sure I don't lose anything!

PLEASE USE TABBED BROWSING WHILE VIEWING THIS!!! PLEASE LOOK AT THE POSTS THAT I QUOTE!

. I didn't actually quote the posts because then this one post would be super duper big.

The following will be my thoughts on my detailed re-read of PAGE ONE to PAGE FOURTEEN only. Note that my ideas slow down after page 10. This is because I got eager to finish this. I ended this at page 14 and then I will spend time responding to more recent posts later.

The most important thing to know when re-reading me is this:
I under-estimated you guys. I under-estimated everyone's intelligence subconsciously. That's basically the root of all the bad plays I have made.

Another important note: This post is extremely dense.

I tried to lighten it with a bit of bad humor randomly and some formatting but it is. Take the time to read this carefully please. I spent a really long time on this,

the least you can do is spend 15-20 minutes to make sure you read all of it carefully.

.

And sorry if I repeat myself

I would like to start this post by saying three things:
1) Sorry sorry sorry. I am sorry I haven’t been posting much recent
ly, I am sorry that I made some pretty horrible arguments in the past, and I’m sorry I’ve been switching up my playing style throughout this game. I've been looking at each person directly and attacking different people at different times. This is a stupid tactic and I'm going to stop doing it.
2) This is not an attempt to avoid any questions I haven’t answered. If I miss one of your questions (even again!) Please reference the original post number or repost it. I am making this post because I really needed to get my thoughts out there.
3) I wrote alot of this in microsoft word, so some of the stuff will be formatted oddly. Really sorry about that.

~~~Now the first five pages~~~

note: I write a lot about JS and WLC simply because I/most of the town has been ignoring them. I paid special attention to them during my re-read of the game.

---As I am yet to really understand the random voting stage, I’m completely ignoring it in this summary. I don’t think I could honestly interpret anything out if it. I know the information is

there

, but I just can’t really figure it out. I'm starting with the first significant thing that hasn't been brought up before.

---Something that you should probably notice, one thing I have been doing this whole game is be “over-confident.” I’m just realizing this right now, and I’ll try to stop doing this. You can see this in my very first weak case,

“He spends the rest of his posts trying to undo the damage he has done. But it's too late. He has come off as really scummy.”

. You see this again in my “case” against CKD, my very recent “case” against TD. It’s been an unconscious attempt (I’m just realizing it right now) to bluff my way into getting scum flustered. E.g. convincing a murder you have complete evidence, when you don’t, may lead him to convince.

this is stupid

. It doesn’t work. It’s one thing (faking over confidence) that has been very poor in my game play, and I will try to change it. This refers to me underestimating your guys' intelligence for whatever reason.


---In the beginning both Bib/td and JS seem to be very careful not step on any toes, and they just want to agree with people. On post 50, Bib says "

In my mind, WLC's immediate jumping on him to put Occult to L-2 seems a little stranger in my book, but both of these posts could simply have been meant as catalysts for activity.

." Here Bib cancels out what he was doing, like Amor did very early in the game. He also makes his second and third post agreeing with people. JS had a habit of doing this also and he does this throughout the thread. A good example is post 54. He seems very careful to not get involved in making a direct statement.

throughout the game, JS seems to only write stuff only after people directly ask him questions or directly talk about him

. Of course, that's something I should back up, right? It's something I got while reading through the thread, and I should post more evidence later.

---I’m going to bring up something really a long time ago. It interested me.
RI, if you were

planning on FomS'ing (…Occult/Muerto) because of how ridiculously aggressive [he was] acting

, why didn’t you FOS Boggzie when he acted ridiculously aggressive, calling JS’s FOS “shit”on 65?

---Some other stuff/evidence. Once Boggzie starts strongly attacking JS (post 61) JS starts posting a lot more often. On post 69, Occult steps in, so JS slides out of the spotlight. JS makes his next post 3 days later on post 102, and this post is only made in response to a question directed towards him. I suggest you look at post 102 in another tab. I'm not quoting it because I don't want this format to get really really crazzy. You may think that JS is writing that comment on his own and not because of the question directed towards him, but I disagree. It took him 3 whole days to write that, and he is responding (in the first part of the post) to something that happened 3 days ago. Meanwhile, he answers the question RI asks the day later. It appears to me he made his post in response to the question.
What is MORE IMPORTANT is that he went out of the spotlight as soon as Occult took over him in his argument against Boggzie.

---WLC doesn't post much of sustenance in this part of the game. Post 80. 83, and 92 are not really helpful. They are simply a wishy-washy defending and attacking post, a goodbye post, and a theory post. No scum hunting. It takes him SIX WHOLE DAYS to respond next. Now I know I haven't posted for six days also, but I gave plenty ofwarning, wherease he didn't. THen he puts his summary up which really doesn't take a definitive stance on anything. He is EXTREMELY hesitant, and I for one, consider it scummy. I also agree that we cannot allow scummy metas of people, so I'm going to

very strongly encourage WLC to post more

.

---CKD's summary of the game makes a very important point that people (myself included) ignored. CKD notes that Xpom/JS didn’t random vote, and then Xpom/JS suddenly voted for RI because his posts “annoying.” I agree with CKD(read beginning post 107 for details) this seems a little scummy,

especially since Xpom random voted right away in a game he was town in.

Of course this isn't a very good point, but it casts a bit of further doubt on JS, imo. Good eye CKD! CKD summary also does not mention anything WLC did. However, CKD “wants to hear [his] comments” (108). Is this possibly coaching WLC? I could see a scum-pair between the two, that is, if I still suspected CKD as much as before, which I don't. If you suspect CKD, I would investigate the WLC-CKD connection. One, both of there names can be abreviated as three letter symbols. That's enough evidence for me. (joking!)

~~~Now the second five pages~~~

---Amor’s post 125 is an attack against me. It is one of the first, and most backed-up, attacks in the game yet. It is also a strangely out-of-tone post. Many have pointed this out as scummy, myself included. I'm analyzing the reactions now to this post:
______+First of all, Occult jumps on with an immediate FOS on me (129). CKD also jumps in against me on post 131. ( you have to piece together his posts from what I quoted on post 132 since the mod accidentally deleted the rest of 131.) This is a bandwagon. There was little doubting involved, but this was definitely a bandwaggon of sorts. So when you guys say there hasn't been any bandwaggonning, you're wrong. It just hasn't involved votes for most of them. Anyway, is this suspicious of Occult and CKD to suspect me right after Amor does? You decide.
______+During all of this attacking, JS and WLC sit on the sidelines and try not to get involved. It seems like once again, they are trying to not pick sides. Maybe they are waiting for the town decide so they can follow? Scummy I think. Let's look at their posts! It's an adventure! First of all, JS accidentally posts in the game (proving that he isn’t just busy). The next time he posts is post 126, only after Cerb directly asks him a question. JS is really avoiding this conflict between Amor and I. Typical of JS's playstyle. I really need to quote his post on 142. It's great evidence:

[edited out nonsense that referred to JS accidently posting in the wrong game. I also got rid of entered lines to minimize space taken by this quote. althought this explanation is so long that it takes up the wrong of the spaces I deleted. Oh well.]
I feel a few parts of Amor's original case have been said before, though some points are valid.

I'm really curious as to why Occult (and JimSauce and maybe some others) thought that post made BAB look like town.

JimSauce said what?

Please quote any of my messages that support your claim.

I'm on BaB's side for this case, but I don't want to jump in and defend his accusations before he does himself.

I'll wait until it pans out and point out any lapses in logic.

NOTICE: once again, JS is responding because he was directly talked about!
NOTICE: He avoids taking a stance, and DOESN'T WANT TO JUMP IN!!! are you seroius!? He is really avoiding taking a stance! This sentence has an exclamation point also! All seriousness aside -- er -- all jokingness aside, he never points out anything. He just watches as the spotlight fades away from him. I am pretty confidant that JS is doing this all consciously.
Back to WLC he ignores the conflict and puts a very gently phrased argument on post 152, still pushing the idea that I'm not new, but he really doesn't bring up any new ideas. Not very pro-town. He even asks a really really silly question for who knows what reason "Why does [Occult] take over *transmission out* from RI" (WLC post 152).
______+preatorian doesn't really exist at this point. Bib is really active right now, and RI is busy. (he posts his work on post 150).


---the next thing I have to comment on, is again JS! Lucky you! His post on 156 is a response "At cerb's request" (AGAIN responding because he was asked a quetion) to post a player-by-player. THis kind of post is spaced alot to make it look big and not very dense. It seems like an attempt to look like he's contributing alot, but all of his ideas were pretty much all said before. And look at his suspicion list: it direclty correlates with who is most suspicious according to town, and he doesn't really back it up in his own post. It seems like again, he is trying to blend in.

He claims Amor as the MOST suspicous, but barely talks about it.

why! It's all very suspicious. Posts 166 and 173 by JS are extremely cautious. Also, he writes them in response to people directly talking to him, again.


---Here is another big thing. Put your helmets on and get a vacuum nearbye to pick up the shards. This may blow your mind.
Ok ok I’m going to reveal my reasons for going Gung-Ho super strong against CKD. It was a gambit. It was a gambit to see who would sit back and watch (scummy) or who would cite my arguments as idiotic (pro-town). It’s now time to analyze the responses… Wait you don’t believe me!? You don’t think I masterminded a gambit like that?
It’s true. I didn’t. However, we can USE this as a gambit. The discussion between CKD and I may have been cyclical and anti-town, HOWEVER the reactions of people not involved is extremely helpful. I’m going to see what each person did during the fight.
______+Cerb maintains that I'm the VI. This is not scummy. He doesn't stay out of the argument and he doesn't wait to see what the town thinks. Even though I really disagree with him (and I'm proving you wrong! Look at this evidence filled post! Ha! VI my ass. Actually I was the vi probably. But i leveled up by now I hope.)
______+RI is busy again (204). Notice how he is

busy, just like the last argument (between me and Amor).

I hope this is just timing, but if not, I'm catching on to you, RI.
______+Occult suspects Bab and Amor. Ok this isn't too scummy. He has made his opinion vocal the last time Bab and Amor fought. It hasn't changed this whole time? That's consistent. And most people consider consistancy as pro-town. I'm not sure if I do. But this is evidence for you guys to analyze.
______+ WLC doesn't post too much content. Again. on post 213, WLC even admits this saying "Sorry for my lack of input". Once again,

WLC: Post some more significant things. Some origonal ideas.

______+ not much for me too analyze about Bib, but he's atually here this time. Please analyze his posts yourself and tell me what you think! 203 and 216. It seems pro-town to me.
______+ JS takes both sides. Ok this seems like something kind of scummy. Look at post 208. THis is EXTREMELY SCUMMY imo. He happens to suspect the two people who are involved in the argment. He restates my crappy reasons for suspected CKD and lists bad ones. There is NO GOOD EVIDENCE FOR CKD BEING SCUM! I admit it. Ok well I believed that CKD was scum before, but I was tunnel vissioning. JS is experienced, and the fact that he uses such bad logic* and the fact that he mentions CKD and Bab 's scummy actions ONLY is pretty scummy imo.
*bad logic: JS claims that CKD "The obnoxiousness of many of his comments" is scummy. He barely explains this idea any further and so it's pretty weak, and "he speaks as if the entire town thinks the same way about BaB" this is just a bad habit and annoying. Not a scumtell, imo. UNLESS, JS, you connect it to being scummy. But you don't. YOu could've, but you didn't. It was a weak argument and reason to suspect CKD. Bad.

______+ Amor kind of sits back also, and countinues to not like me. Oh well. I'll still invite him to my party.

I'm also not getting a lot from BiB's post. Not scummy, per se, but most of it is summarizing and repetition.

I havent been "working" on a case...I have been waiting for lurkers to post, Black just did and I am watching interactions right now

I don't like this idea of "sitting back and seeing what happens." You mentioned this before when me and BaB were arguing. This seems to me like an excuse not to contribute until there's a consensus that you can jump on.

. I Agree that this is 100% all natural scum sauce. I also believe that JS and WLC have been doing this a whole lot. And Amor has (as the point is made very recently by someone I don't remember. This post isn't supposed to be on recent things).
And you know what!

JS pretty much admits to doing this!:

I wonder if anybody here is fitting such a bill. [please se post 230. The bill explains the point that Amor made pretty much. Except CKD made it this time]

*sidles out of the room*

---The last thing I have to say about this section of the game is just some more evidence for my previous claims. WLC is still pushing the idea that I'm more experienced that I say, which I'm not (245). Js doesn't really help that much in his posts 237 and 244 where he just agrees with prevoius statements mostly. He also posts a very short post on 246.

~~~Now the last five pages~~~

This is more of a just collection of evidence. Nothing big in this section. I kind of raced towards the end.


---post 254 JS just agreeign again. You can literally find him doing one of these for a bunch of his posts: a) agreeing with someone b)responding only because something directly concerned him (instead of bringing up new ideas on his own). He rarely posts without a or b. Lot's of evidence in this post to support this. (the one you're reading, or the one that's being quoted if this is quoted right now! Humor injected! Still not funny enough! Increase the dosage, doctor! Ok bab, now you're just ruinig it. Sorry I'm tired. And I'm trying to make this post easier to read.)

---WLC disappears for FIVE days inbetween his posts 255 and 294. AGH!

---In post 294, WLC votes for Bib!? Citing the EXACT same reasons for voting for Bib that you have done this entire game!!! Look, WLC, I really want to think you're townie. Especially since I went through the trouble to meta you. But you have really been suspicious.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFRENCE between you and Bib.

Haven't you also snook "in some arguments sometimes, trying to steer but not really acting in the foreground?" (294).

---Muerrto post 300: said you’d respond to people’s responses to your questions. You never did this. I need you to do this. I'm really tired and I can't analyze this also. Look how much frigging work I've already done! I need to get caught up on the game, so I kind of ignored people's responsing hoping to refer back to them once Muerrto discussed them. But he never did! AH!

---Post 315, I really don’t like Muerrto’s argument the more I look at it. Really don’t. There is so many more possibilities what is happening. We HAVEN’T HAD A LYNCH FOR 15 PAGES!!! Pushing one on me would reveal scum too much, so either way I wouldn’t be easily lynched. Muertto may easily been one of the people attacking me, since “I’m an easy target.”

---Post 325, Td ignores everyone but me. Are you serious? This is 10 posts after Muerrto made a direct attack against me. Weird post. Scummy. I see this as the continuation of a third attak I'm involved in. The first one was amor and I, the second was CKD and I and I analyzed both of these to see who was testing to see who could more easily be voted out. I also examined the bandwaggoners. In my opinion, Td is bandwaggoning after Muertto's post against me.

~~~Closing comments~~~

Please, please, look at the posts that I write about. If I had actually quoted every single post, this one post would be RIDICULOUSLY large. So I just referred to posts.

Also, please take the time to read this post. There hasn't been much going on lately, so read this carefully. Take 15 minutes to look at it. It's the least you can do as I've spent over 5 hours on this post.

I wrote this with an emphasis on things that haven't been brought up too much. I didn't write this as a case against anyone. I tried to keep it as unbiased, but of course as I wrote it, I was increasingly uncertain about some players and more confident in others.

Questions to come later, (tomorrow) finnaly I can respond to the last 4 pages of stuff.

I tried to add humour in this post to break it up.

If you have any questions about this, QUOTE A SPECIFIC PART OF IT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

That was over 3,400 words and when I post it in microsoft word (at the font it's set at for this forum) it comes out to be 9 pages. Yeah I spent a lot of time. I had to say this because I was kind of proud of all the work I put into this. Goodnight!

[td]

Sorry, with that much new content and work for `measure theory & stochastics' to be done for tomorrow, I'm not going to get a full post done today.

[curiouskarmadog]

wow, going to take some time to read that..see my name listed about 20 times,,have no time now, will read it later.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Wow, now that's a thorough review if I ever saw one! Good job, will need some time to digest it completely, but on first read one thing I noticed: even though you point a lot of things out, you're not making your mind up either like me, but you're taking a lot more words doing so. What's your final conclusion from your reread? Who do you think is the scumpair, or at least most likely scum, and why aren't you voting for him/her? I think it's because you don't know, just like I don't know, although I tend to not post when I'm unsure, and you tend to post a lot when you're not sure. Of course that's way better to get discussion going.

On a specific note:

In post 294, WLC votes for Bib!? Citing the EXACT same reasons for voting for Bib that you have done this entire game!!! Look, WLC, I really want to think you're townie. Especially since I went through the trouble to meta you. But you have really been suspicious. EXPLAIN THE DIFFRENCE between you and Bib. Haven't you also snook "in some arguments sometimes, trying to steer but not really acting in the foreground?" (294).

I don't feel I influenced town, or tried to. I felt Bib was holding back, but when he posted he was trying to say. Now, I understand that for someone else it might not look different, but it's the way I perceived it. But I understand that it might look strange to accuse someone of something I seemingly did as well (at least the holding back part).

Usually with mafia, until I get in a heated debate or discussion myself, or some time has passed and I perceived something scummy (usually based on nightkills, and voting patterns) I'm holding back with posting, which is the case here. I'm trying to change my behavior, and post more directly from the start, but it's difficult.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy.

Vote curiouskarmadog.

I hope this gives a bit more insight in my thoughts and suspicions, and it could involve me in the game more. If there's anything, just ask.

[curiouskarmadog]

(laughing)....read it again, was it circular discussion or fustration/defense..who was the one who first stated that it was becoming circular and wasnt helping the town? Who was the one who first said we should stop?

please answer...and then defend your vote and explain how my actions were distracting.

[curiouskarmadog]

things I will get done today...answer Amor retort...read BaB's 3400 word post...wait for WLC to defend his unjustified vote.

[Amor]

BaB now seems to be attacking JS and WLC. I've also noticed JimSauce's lack of posting, except for one-liners and responses, but I think he's probably not a D1 lynch. As for WLC, while he does post infrequently he seems to be genuinely trying to help the town, so I'm not convinced he's scum.

Also, BaB has now accused pretty much everyone in this game at one point, with the exception (I believe) of RI and Cerebus3.

---Here is another big thing. Put your helmets on and get a vacuum nearbye to pick up the shards. This may blow your mind.
Ok ok I’m going to reveal my reasons for going Gung-Ho super strong against CKD. It was a gambit. It was a gambit to see who would sit back and watch (scummy) or who would cite my arguments as idiotic (pro-town). It’s now time to analyze the responses… Wait you don’t believe me!? You don’t think I masterminded a gambit like that?
It’s true. I didn’t. However, we can USE this as a gambit. The discussion between CKD and I may have been cyclical and anti-town, HOWEVER the reactions of people not involved is extremely helpful. I’m going to see what each person did during the fight.

Meh. Keep in mind that this entire argument took up about 4 RL days, so it wouldn't be that surprising to see someone not post a lot in this time. Also, it was pretty dense, I know that I personally had trouble figuring the whole thing out -- that might be another reason for people not to comment.

There is NO GOOD EVIDENCE FOR CKD BEING SCUM! I admit it. Ok well I believed that CKD was scum before, but I was tunnel vissioning. JS is experienced, and the fact that he uses such bad logic* and the fact that he mentions CKD and Bab 's scummy actions ONLY is pretty scummy imo.
*bad logic: JS claims that CKD "The obnoxiousness of many of his comments" is scummy. He barely explains this idea any further and so it's pretty weak, and "he speaks as if the entire town thinks the same way about BaB" this is just a bad habit and annoying. Not a scumtell, imo. UNLESS, JS, you connect it to being scummy. But you don't. YOu could've, but you didn't. It was a weak argument and reason to suspect CKD. Bad.

So, for coming to the same conclusion you did, JS is scummy? You obviously thought it was a valid argument at the time, so why shouldn't he, even if he is an IC. Not to mention that, if I recall correctly, he was more attacking the nature of CKD's responses than supporting your accusation. Also, bad arguments aren't neccesarily scummy, and you're doing the same thing you accused JimSauce of doing in this point (suspecting someone because of a bad argument without explaining how it's scummy.)

______+ Amor kind of sits back also, and countinues to not like me. Oh well. I'll still invite him to my party. ... I Agree that this is 100% all natural scum sauce. I also believe that JS and WLC have been doing this a whole lot. And Amor has (as the point is made very recently by someone I don't remember. This post isn't supposed to be on recent things).[/quote]

I posted a few times during the argument, which matches the overall frequency of my posts. And I did present an opinion on it. Incidentally, it was the same as JimSauce's, that both of you were being suspicious -- but you don't suspect me because of that argument, while you do suspect JS for it.

And you know what!

JS pretty much admits to doing this!:

I wonder if anybody here is fitting such a bill. [please se post 230. The bill explains the point that Amor made pretty much. Except CKD made it this time]

*sidles out of the room*

I actually see this as sort of a townie post. To admit, albeit jokingly that you haven't been posting as much as you should is different from what scum would do, which would be to deny and argue against it.

---In post 294, WLC votes for Bib!? Citing the EXACT same reasons for voting for Bib that you have done this entire game!!! Look, WLC, I really want to think you're townie. Especially since I went through the trouble to meta you. But you have really been suspicious.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFRENCE between you and Bib.

Haven't you also snook "in some arguments sometimes, trying to steer but not really acting in the foreground?" (294).

Here again you're attacking someone for agreeing with you.

Muertto may easily been one of the people attacking me, since “I’m an easy target.”

Again, I see this sort of admittance as town. I believe he was the first to bring up the point that you were an easy target, when he was attacking you -- he was pointing out something that made himself look scummier for the purpose of making an argument, which isn't something scum would do.

---Post 325, Td ignores everyone but me. Are you serious? This is 10 posts after Muerrto made a direct attack against me. Weird post. Scummy. I see this as the continuation of a third attak I'm involved in. The first one was amor and I, the second was CKD and I and I analyzed both of these to see who was testing to see who could more easily be voted out. I also examined the bandwaggoners. In my opinion, Td is bandwaggoning after Muertto's post against me.

I'm not quoting it here, but the whole preamble/afterward/word count seems like a real effort to point out how pro-town you're being. I mean, I guess it could just be trying to get kudos for doing so much work, but it's definitely there.

Responding to other people:

Shrug when BaB and CKD argue back and forth for pages upon pages I skim. I already said I'd re-read, no need to call me out on it. Geez.

Eh, no big deal. I can see skimming that part in a read-through.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy. Vote curiouskarmadog.

Why are you voting CKD now for something he did almost 10 pages ago?

[Muerrto]

Vote: BaB

he attacks a different person every day yet never throws down a vote. His verbosity is attempting to hide his role and I'm not buying it.

[WeyounsLastClone]

(laughing)....read it again, was it circular discussion or fustration/defense..who was the one who first stated that it was becoming circular and wasnt helping the town? Who was the one who first said we should stop?

please answer...and then defend your vote and explain how my actions were distracting.

Well, for one you could think you drew too much attention with those posts, and then decided to talk you out of it? Still find it a bit suspicious, combined with what I thought of bib (maybe it's too much gut feeling) my vote still stands.

[curiouskarmadog]

what does bib have to do with me..

maybe you need to reread like I said, or you feel like you have said enough about your crap vote/case.

[curiouskarmadog]

Here, Amor shows how quickly his opinion changes. First Amor agrees with Occult and Foses Clone, then when people point out they feel like Occult suspicious of his action, then he completely flip flops on his opinion with the majority.

I didn't agree with Occult or defend his post in the first post, I just criticized WLC. I didn't express an opinion on Occult's vote in the first post, so how can I be flip-flopping?

If you are going to defend yourself, please stop with the lying.

FoS on WLC

Asking for a deadline isn't really suspicious given the circumstances. It seems a little agressive to put a third vote on someone because of it.

you defended Occult, you said his actions were not really suspicious. You FoS WLC, who Occult had his vote one. You implied what your opinion was of Occult’s vote. You FoSed WLC for the same reason Occult was voting him. You do flip flop…you even admit to doing it.

Later when people started discussing it I realized that it was now considered to be a more serious vote, so I treated it as such.

I find your explanation of the flip flop, reasonable though. But the fact you deny the flip flop is suspcious.

This is nitpicking. I used "I'm not going to lie" because the post involved admitting past failings, which was something some people might try to save face about. In any case, I don't see how a particular turn of phrase is scummy.

It is all about the frame set of mafia and those who know they are guilty. In my experience I have found new scum that use the phrase. They tend to use the term “to be honest”..I am explained why I feel that way. Really this debate can not go any further until your alignment is known, or the game is over. I noted it, and my vote wasn’t on you for this bit alone.

First off, there were a couple comments around that time of the same nature, so I was addressing those as well. It's true that you were and are active, and I've never argued that you've been inactive in general. What I have pointed out is you holding back on certain subjects, and "I'm going to wait and see what happens" is definitely an example of this. Can you provide an example of me specifically dodging a subject?

Again, I was “holding back” because I didn’t fully have an opinion yet. Why would you want to hear thoughts that hadn’t really been thought through yet? If I had provided thoughts then, it might have changed the outcome of the conversation being watched. Yes I can provide examples…in my post that you are suppose to be addressing you do not answer direct questions.

Here, he is trying to shed a bad light on the fact that I am waiting for more information. First he comes into the game and says that he is “trying to be careful before accusing anyone” then suggests I am scummy for wanting to wait for more information and for the lurkers to post content. I am not about to push a case on anyone without all the information I deem necessary to do so.

At the time, I wanted to hear from the lurkers. Why didn’t you? Why was it ok for you “to be careful”, but when I want to wait it is “an excuse not to contribute until there is a consensus”.

Another scummy move. If you deem me scummy, than your ass should be in the same light, right? I also should note, that he spun my waiting to push a case as “sitting back and seeing what happens”…this implies that I was just sitting back not posting content or offering an opinion. At this point in the game, I was probably one of the top posters in amount of posts, opinions, and content. This statement from Amor reeks of scum.

Again, why at the time did you what to put me in a scummy light, but not care what the lurkers had to say? Again, why is it ok for you “to be careful” but you STILL want to push I was scummy when I wanted to gather certain information before commenting fully on a topic….please don’t avoid the questions this time.

Even if we lynch BaB and he is town, it is ok…WHAT?! I for one don’t want to lynch someone that could be town. We are here to lynch scum, not too lynch safely. Bab might be annoying and can be distrtacting (at least to me), but if you don’t think he is scum, then you shouldnt be voting him. Every lynch counts.

You continue to fail to get the point. The point isn't that we should lynch BaB because he's distracting and doesn't help, but that a BaB mislynch wouldn't be as disastrous as a mislynch as a more pro-town player. Of course you shouldn't vote for someone you don't think is scum, and I've never suggested other wise, only that when dealing with a (alleged) VI you don't need to be as cautious.

So I missed it here, do you or don’t you agree that every lynch counts? You might not directly say lynching the VI is ok. But you provide shelter for those who do not like BaB or his posting style and might want to vote him no matter is alignment. I say, vote BaB if you think he is scum…do not vote him just because you think he is distracting. I can not think any anyone who is pro-town, posting a post like this basically saying “lynching the VI isn’t that big of a deal”. When is it ok for the town to start being cautious with it’s lynch prospects?

I wouldn't call changing my playstyle flip-flopping. Even if it is, BaB has flip-flopped more, more suspiciously (whenever it appears the attack won't catch on) and about more important things (who's scum, as opposed to how cautious I should play).

I agree with you here, BaB has been flip flopping as well (and he has been called out on it)...what is your point other than deflecting? Do you think he is scummy for his flip flop? IF you do, why is he scummy for a flip flop but you are not?

And there is this recent post.

* On that note, CKD has been apparently getting caught up on the game for at least two weeks now.

why is that worth noting? I have been posting and keep up with the thread..I just haven’t put a case out there…the only reason you thought it should be noted is because a.) it might mean something later or b.) you think it is scummy now.

how quickly you forget.

Okay, I've been a bit swamped so I didn't have time to put together a full response until now. I may not be posting frequently for the next week or two due to finals

people have other priorities...why am I worth noting, but you are not?

Yes, but you mentioned repeatedly that you were catching up, and then rereading, etc., past the point where it was credible. Looking back I notice a general pattern of excuses in your posts, from "Argh I have no time to scumhunt I have to argue with BaB" to "I am still getting caught up, no posts for the next week." I found that worth noting.

“Pattern of excuses…past the point of credible”? I was letting everyone know that a post was coming, that I was keeping up, and I wasn’t lurking..I do it every game (again meta, twice yesterday in two different games). Again, why is it scummy (worth of note) when I do it, but when you do it, it is ok? And I do it in every game (please anyone feel free to meta past and present games), is it still note worthy in this game?

I have posted everything I need to Bab...please post what I haven’t addressed to Bab.

From your 34th post:

ugh, that is an hour of my life I will not get back..I hate that I have to keep focusing all my energy to BAB, but there are ceritan "points" that need to be set straight.

I am hoping my next post will finish up with BaB's posts

You never did finish up. Now, it's not like I'm waiting with baited breath for the continuation of the circular BaB/CKD argument, but I think that if you say you're going to respond to something you should respond to it.

Again, you are the captain of avoiding direct questions. Please post what I haven’t addressed in reference to Bab..is there some question he has asked or a point he has made that I haven’t addressed?

Also Amor, please explain why you don’t mentioned my post 36 where I state..

this is going to go no where. this is probably the first thing I agree with you on..I will review the rest of your posts, and will ask you questions directly. I am not going to reply to you entire post, but if there is something you would like me to address that I missed, please bring it to my attention..and I will do the same for you.

there are a couple other people I would like to ask questions, and I have been so wrapped up addressing your posts (and defending myself) that I havent had time for other people..

my

next post I will address the rest of BAB's posts.

and my HUGE post 38, where I ask BaB a ton of questions and address the rest of Bab’s post….any reason you decided to leave out these two post in your accusation?

Basically, I think this case on me is pretty unsubstantiated. A lot of this is based on posts I have since clarified, and while you include the clarificaitons, you still attack the posts like they weren't there. You also attack my argument a lot instead of describing why it is scummy... things like "Amor said I did X, but he's also done X, so therefore he's scum" don't really make sense to me.

unsubstantiated? Please address all of my questions and requests this time.

[WeyounsLastClone]

what does bib have to do with me..

Sorry, meant Boggzie, as indicated in the post I voted for you. I hate replacements, they confuse me all the time and make it much more difficult to differentiate everyone.

[curiouskarmadog]

(laughing)....read it again, was it circular discussion or fustration/defense..who was the one who first stated that it was becoming circular and wasnt helping the town? Who was the one who first said we should stop?

please answer...and then defend your vote and explain how my actions were distracting.

Well, for one you could think you drew too much attention with those posts, and then decided to talk you out of it? Still find it a bit suspicious, combined with what I thought of bib (maybe it's too much gut feeling) my vote still stands.

well you didnt really answer my questions though did you?

need some clarification here...I drew attention to WHAT with WHAT posts?

who or what talked me out of what?

also, if I were to meta you right now..would I find you more active in other games posting post that are quite large....why are you not active here?

what does bib have to do with me..

Sorry, meant Boggzie, as indicated in the post I voted for you. I hate replacements, they confuse me all the time and make it much more difficult to differentiate everyone.

also, what about Bogg did you not like...when did you start not to like him..did you ever vote him or express that you didnt like him?

[WeyounsLastClone]

Well, if you look at my games Newbie 499 and Open 36 I really started with what you could call lurking, and only started to provide arguments (still not great to other's opinion) after some lynches.

You say yourself you pointed out your posts were circular. I was referring to that, that could be a way to 'clear yourself'.

And what I didn't like about Bogg was the exit. It really felt (and still does) like a mafia who couldn't handle the heat.

[JimSauce]

Bridges, I'm kind of glad you posted that novel. Sorry for not using quote tags for it, but I didn't feel they were so necessary.

“---In the beginning both Bib/td and JS seem to be very careful not step on any toes, and they just want to agree with people.”

Using Bridges use of the word "early" as a guide, I'm going to single out the first five pages. If you were referring to more of the game, please let me know. Anyways; I disagreed with Amor in my first post, I disagreed with Occult in the next few posts, practically everyone disagreed with my accusation on Occult, I disagreed that Boggzie wasn't lurking (and disagreed with MANY other accusations on this subject, do you want me to single them out?), I disagreed with your claim on Boggzie, I disagreed with your quicklynch theory, I disagreed with Curious's later accusation of my vote on him being serious. There may be some that I missed. Please tell me where you got the impression that “all I wanted to do was just agree with people”. I find this accusation silly in that it apparently lacks a base.

“JS had a habit of doing this also and he does this throughout the thread. A good example is post 54. He seems very careful to not get involved in making a direct statement.”

I don’t see how #54 shows I want to avoid making any direct statements. The only straight response to your opening post was “OMG Bridges said we need to lynch someone quick, VOTE: BRIDGES”, which I refrained from saying because I realized it was your first post in this game. Everything about your post screamed you needed coaching, so I gave some advice.

“---Some other stuff/evidence. Once Boggzie starts strongly attacking JS (post 61) JS starts posting a lot more often. On post 69, Occult steps in, so JS slides out of the spotlight.”

Post frequency generally increases when one has a new post to respond to every time they revisit the thread, hence the jump in my posts when I was arguing with Boggzie. I also disagree that I “slid out of the spotlight”. Let's prove exactly why, shall we? Refer to my posting history from March 19-21, and you will find that out of the

four

games I was in, I did not post

anywhere

during that three (two) day period. I think this proves I had something going on in my life, and I couldn't be bothered to respond to your accusation the day after you posted it. Conveniently, Radio asked me a question the day before I got back! I'm not blaming you for making this accusation, given the type of case you're putting on me and my lack of a V/LA notice.

However, CKD “wants to hear [his] comments” (108). Is this possibly coaching WLC? I could see a scum-pair between the two, that is, if I still suspected CKD as much as before, which I don't. If you suspect CKD, I would investigate the WLC-CKD connection.

I believe everyone has said they want to hear more from Weyouns. Why do you single out Curious? And do you think that your suggestion on Weyouns to post more could be read as coaching?

During all of this attacking, JS and WLC sit on the sidelines and try not to get involved. It seems like once again, they are trying to not pick sides.

I clearly said

"I'm on Bridges' side for this case"

. That is taking a side. And you think I'm suspicious for not soaring to your defense? Have you seen

anyone

do this, in any debate in this game? I only respond directly to an argument not involving me when excessively crap logic is brought up, or when the attacks become rather opportunistic. It's not scummy to watch a debate from the sidelines while giving your opinion at the same time.

“This kind of post is spaced alot to make it look big and not very dense. It seems like an attempt to look like he's contributing a lot …”

Bah.

“And look at his suspicion list: it direclty correlates with who is most suspicious according to town, and he doesn't really back it up in his own post.”

Why is it the same as the town’s? Maybe they’re smart? Why didn’t I back it up (with paragraphs of more reasoning and logic)? Look deep into this post; the answer can be found three sentences earlier.

“There is NO GOOD EVIDENCE FOR CKD BEING SCUM!”

I’m sorry, but why do I get the feeling you’re making this up to have an extra point in your case? Maybe it’s because you brought it up years after I suspected Curious? Anyways, I really didn’t feel the need to elaborate why discrediting a player was scummy because several others had already pointed this out and called Curious scummy. I suspected him because he used obnoxious questions and messages to discredit you; this is scummy because it makes his job to lynch you (hypothetical townie) easier, without directly citing scummy actions. Scum are more likely to discredit players because they have to pretend to be suspicious, and when they don’t have enough incriminating evidence, they make their target look scummier with generally obnoxious posts. On a different note, why is suspecting someone for discrediting a newbie scummy? And why do you ignore everyone else who was suspicious of you and Curious at the time?

Bridges, I’m not going to deny that most of my posts are in response to questions or statements. (After a quick reread, I’ve found that approximately ¼ is self-motivated. While this isn’t much, I feel you’re exaggerating a bit by saying all of my posts have been this way.) I disagree that this is as scummy as you make it out to be. My thoughts and opinions make it to the thread, I point out scummy actions where I see them. I don’t believe you specified in your case; why is all of this scummy? And what is your conclusion on me; where am I on your scum list? Why didn't you vote?

---

I second Amor's questioning of Weyouns' vote. It looks like you're digging back in the thread to find something to vote on to appear pro-town.

FoS: WLC

Here again you're attacking someone for agreeing with you.

I think he's attacking Weyouns because his vote was hypocritical.

I'm not quoting it here, but the whole preamble/afterward/word count seems like a real effort to point out how pro-town you're being. I mean, I guess it could just be trying to get kudos for doing so much work, but it's definitely there.

Amor, I got the same impression from Bridges' little comments before and after his post (jealousy, heheh), but I think it's excused for a case of that size. Maybe just to lift the mood somewhat?

Curious brings up good points against Amor, and most of them reflect badly on the latter.

Muerrto, I noted that Bridges hasn't cast a vote. Eh?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

This is a quick response because I only had five minutes to see if anyone was attacking me for not finishing my summary

Muerto did. I haven't casted a vote, because, if you noticed, I still haven't read the last three pages or so.

I assure you that I will cast a vote

by the end of my game-summary (I still haven't really looked at the most recent events). Just wait a couple more days. I tried to write my summary not attacking anyone directly, just noting some scummy things/patterns I saw.

The attack comes later.

[Radio_Interference]

Krrzzt....

...Johnny Truant?...

[Statement]

Well. My original post was lost due to computer error. Oh well, I didn’t have that much put into it.

[Muerrto]

That’s not much reasoning there. I would like to see more, mostly because you’ve been focused enough with Bab in the last few pages I would think you’d be able to pull something out of what you’ve said and relate it to Bab’s newest post. But, you might have planned to do that when you had more freetime anyway.

[CKD]

You’re last question to me asked for posts, I can go back and pull them if you’d like me too, but with how weak what I said was, I’m thinking that I could find other ways to use my time. All I was talking about was when I had called you out for what I had interpreted as reaching, and I had to go back and double read some of your posts when you had been asked (By Bab?) where your case was, as I had thought there was a case too. I think that someone else made a comment on one of these two subjects, but I have no memory for who it was. Kinda get more where I’m coming from now?

[Bab]

As I mentioned before, I was doing sound tech work for my highschools spring musical. It’s a very intensive job, and didn’t leave me much time left to post here. “Much time” still should have been enough for me to get something off to at least make a comment or snide remark, but some personal things also came up over the weekend that took priority over me replying here.

[Random]

You mentioned not understanding the random voting stage, maybe my opinion on it will help? I don’t agree with you as far as saying there’s information there that you don’t know how to decipher. In my mind people start the game random voting, until someone provides a semi-serious argument, then people comment on that argument, and the comments are argued upon. After that happens mafia, and useful information, actually starts.

[In Response]

As far as your specific question for me goes about why I was going to FomS Occult, but didn’t do anything to Boggzie is concerned, I don’t look at what Boggzie did as properly being defined by the word “overaggressive”. In my mind he freaked the hell out. His first few posts with actual content in them were relatively well constructed posts, but something ticked him off and caused his swearing/leaving fit. I’m relatively certain that he would have been one of the people I wouldn’t have bothered to FoS, just skipped right to a vote. But, mostly I didn’t do much about the situation because I wanted to wait for it to pan out almost fully before commenting on it, as I didn’t have the slightest idea how many were going to react to his overshow of emotion. It ended with him leaving. Is that satisfactory to answer what you were asking?

[Statement]

Now, I think that takes care of the comments that were directed in any way towards me. As to not force Bab to overcomplicate the next piece of his post-session, I’m going to wait until after he’s posted his completed argument to comment much on it. I’m also relatively confused about everyones argument towards WLC, and will need to reread those parts before I say much definitivly on it. I can tell you that in my meta of WLC, he did lurk just as he did now, though I fall into the category that meta’ing doesn’t really mean much anyway.

*Transmission Out*

[Amor]

I didn't agree with Occult or defend his post in the first post, I just criticized WLC. I didn't express an opinion on Occult's vote in the first post, so how can I be flip-flopping?

If you are going to defend yourself, please stop with the lying.

FoS on WLC

Asking for a deadline isn't really suspicious given the circumstances. It seems a little agressive to put a third vote on someone because of it.

you defended Occult, you said his actions were not really suspicious. You FoS WLC, who Occult had his vote one. You implied what your opinion was of Occult’s vote. You FoSed WLC for the same reason Occult was voting him. You do flip flop…you even admit to doing it.

How am I lying? I didn't say that Occult's vote wasn't suspicious, but that asking for a deadline wasn't. And I don't think I was "implying" my opinion of the vote that I didn't mention. It's not like my FoS was affected either way by whether Occult's vote was scummy. (Even if I thought Occult's OMGUS vote made him scummy, WLC posted before that so I would have still viewed his behavior as suspicious.)

Later when people started discussing it I realized that it was now considered to be a more serious vote, so I treated it as such.

I find your explanation of the flip flop, reasonable though. But the fact you deny the flip flop is suspcious.

I guess if you consider ignoring something and looking at it closer later flip-flopping, then sure.

First off, there were a couple comments around that time of the same nature, so I was addressing those as well. It's true that you were and are active, and I've never argued that you've been inactive in general. What I have pointed out is you holding back on certain subjects, and "I'm going to wait and see what happens" is definitely an example of this. Can you provide an example of me specifically dodging a subject?

Again, I was “holding back” because I didn’t fully have an opinion yet. Why would you want to hear thoughts that hadn’t really been thought through yet? If I had provided thoughts then, it might have changed the outcome of the conversation being watched. Yes I can provide examples…in my post that you are suppose to be addressing you do not answer direct questions.

Of course I want to hear thoughts that haven't been thought through yet. That reveals a player's alignment and their true thoughts better than a fully-prepared case does. Even if you don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, posting your thoughts can't hurt. Of course your actions will affect the outcome of the conversation. The point is that hopefully your thoughts will change the outcome for the better.

I answered each point in your case, although looking back I technically didn't answer a few questions. (Which seemed almost rhetorical anyways). I'll answer those later in this post. I'd hardly call this dodging.

Here, he is trying to shed a bad light on the fact that I am waiting for more information. First he comes into the game and says that he is “trying to be careful before accusing anyone” then suggests I am scummy for wanting to wait for more information and for the lurkers to post content. I am not about to push a case on anyone without all the information I deem necessary to do so.

At the time, I wanted to hear from the lurkers. Why didn’t you? Why was it ok for you “to be careful”, but when I want to wait it is “an excuse not to contribute until there is a consensus”.

Another scummy move. If you deem me scummy, than your ass should be in the same light, right? I also should note, that he spun my waiting to push a case as “sitting back and seeing what happens”…this implies that I was just sitting back not posting content or offering an opinion. At this point in the game, I was probably one of the top posters in amount of posts, opinions, and content. This statement from Amor reeks of scum.

Again, why at the time did you what to put me in a scummy light, but not care what the lurkers had to say? Again, why is it ok for you “to be careful” but you STILL want to push I was scummy when I wanted to gather certain information before commenting fully on a topic….please don’t avoid the questions this time.

I certainly care what the lurkers had to say, but that's no excuse not to post. This game would be even slower if everyone waited for the lurkers to weigh in before they said anything, and likely not all that productive. As for my "being careful"... first of all, that was pointed out to be unhelpful. Secondly, even in this period I posted my thoughts on what was going on in the game. If nothing else, the fact that you clearly conciously chose to hang back is a little suspicious.

Even if we lynch BaB and he is town, it is ok…WHAT?! I for one don’t want to lynch someone that could be town. We are here to lynch scum, not too lynch safely. Bab might be annoying and can be distrtacting (at least to me), but if you don’t think he is scum, then you shouldnt be voting him. Every lynch counts.

You continue to fail to get the point. The point isn't that we should lynch BaB because he's distracting and doesn't help, but that a BaB mislynch wouldn't be as disastrous as a mislynch as a more pro-town player. Of course you shouldn't vote for someone you don't think is scum, and I've never suggested other wise, only that when dealing with a (alleged) VI you don't need to be as cautious.

So I missed it here, do you or don’t you agree that every lynch counts? You might not directly say lynching the VI is ok. But you provide shelter for those who do not like BaB or his posting style and might want to vote him no matter is alignment. I say, vote BaB if you think he is scum…do not vote him just because you think he is distracting. I can not think any anyone who is pro-town, posting a post like this basically saying “lynching the VI isn’t that big of a deal”. When is it ok for the town to start being cautious with it’s lynch prospects?

Of course every lynch counts. I'm not saying to lynch anyone just because they're annoying. But if someone is pretty scumy and their death could strategically benefit the town either way (such as by removing someone distracting), then maybe you should be less careful when dealing with them. Obviously in the later stages of the game the town has to be more careful because a mislynch could lead to a scum win. (Theoretically our D1 lynch is equally as valuable, but in practical terms since we have less information we have less accuracy.)

My worry at the time, as I stated in the post, was that BaB had been the main topic of conversation so far, and that if he kept surviving we could end up debating BaB all the time and not giving proper discussion to other suspects, which would lead to more mislynches. Thankfully other people have come into the spotlight since then.

I wouldn't call changing my playstyle flip-flopping. Even if it is, BaB has flip-flopped more, more suspiciously (whenever it appears the attack won't catch on) and about more important things (who's scum, as opposed to how cautious I should play).

I agree with you here, BaB has been flip flopping as well (and he has been called out on it)...what is your point other than deflecting? Do you think he is scummy for his flip flop? IF you do, why is he scummy for a flip flop but you are not?

I've changed my opinions on things a few times in the course of the game, that's to be expected. BaB on the other hand has repeatedly accused someone strongly, been rebuked, and then after seeing there was no support on it declaring them pro-town. Do you not see how this is scummier than changing my mind on whether a vote is serious? That's why I think BaB's flip-flops make him look scummy, while mine shouldn't be seen as such. My point is that there are others a lot guiltier of this than me, but you have declared BaB pro-town and me scum.

“Pattern of excuses…past the point of credible”? I was letting everyone know that a post was coming, that I was keeping up, and I wasn’t lurking..I do it every game (again meta, twice yesterday in two different games). Again, why is it scummy (worth of note) when I do it, but when you do it, it is ok? And I do it in every game (please anyone feel free to meta past and present games), is it still note worthy in this game?

I dunno, you just seemed to be doing it a lot, and always seemed to be getting caught up. It was a minor point, but I thought it should be noted. I also really don't see how your posts and mine are the same. I said once that my posting might be sparse due to RL issues, as an addendum to another post. You repeatedly posted "still getting caught up, post coming soon", which was possibly an attempt to seem active.

Again, you are the captain of avoiding direct questions. Please post what I haven’t addressed in reference to Bab..is there some question he has asked or a point he has made that I haven’t addressed?

Also Amor, please explain why you don’t mentioned my post 36 where I state..

this is going to go no where. this is probably the first thing I agree with you on..I will review the rest of your posts, and will ask you questions directly. I am not going to reply to you entire post, but if there is something you would like me to address that I missed, please bring it to my attention..and I will do the same for you.

there are a couple other people I would like to ask questions, and I have been so wrapped up addressing your posts (and defending myself) that I havent had time for other people..

my

next post I will address the rest of BAB's posts.

and my HUGE post 38, where I ask BaB a ton of questions and address the rest of Bab’s post….any reason you decided to leave out these two post in your accusation?

Hmmm... I was looking for a point-by-point reply to the rest of BaB's earlier posts, while your next post only responded to his response to you. Still, the above post says that you weren't going to do that, so I guess that you weren't delaying as much as I thought. Fair enough.

I'm really finding it kind of hard to explain what I found suspicious about CKD's posts. I guess it's more of a gut feeling, or maybe just annoyance. Since I strive to be logical in this game, I'll back off on this point for the moment.

However, this part from your 38 was a little interesting:

RI,

[CKD] When do you think you're going to have that last post for us?

what does it matter? Is that stopping you from posting your thoughts on BAB, myself, or other people? What were your thoughts on my first (long) post to BAB. BAB’s reply to mine? Why when you were prodded, did you feel like it was important to ask me where my “final” post to BAB was when there were 4 other people that had to be prodded?

Here you attack RI for waiting for your post. So, to take a page from your book, if he's scummy for waiting for others to post, why aren't you?

Basically, I think this case on me is pretty unsubstantiated. A lot of this is based on posts I have since clarified, and while you include the clarificaitons, you still attack the posts like they weren't there. You also attack my argument a lot instead of describing why it is scummy... things like "Amor said I did X, but he's also done X, so therefore he's scum" don't really make sense to me.

unsubstantiated? Please address all of my questions and requests this time.

Unsubstantaited as in I don't think your evidence is good. I think I've answered all your questions, if I missed any just let me know and I'll get to them.

[curiouskarmadog]

just realized this game is almost nothing but replacements....RI and WLC are the only originals..noting that (but I note all types of things as you can see).

at any rate, it wont be until Friday or Sat. that I can get to this thread and address some posts...have two other games that are in need of updating before this one.

[Muerrto]

@RI: Sorry. I can't possibly read the essays put up on this thread. I'm skimming and I see BaB over the course of the game throw suspiscion on almost everyone(I say almost and I'll keep that one to myself) yet the only votes he's EVER thrown out were on:

Occult in his FIRST, removed immediately after
Black for lurking in his 27TH!!! removed in his 35th
CKD in his 37TH removed in his 64TH to 'step back'

He's also been at WLC for 'lurking' and his recent post had alot about JS in it. Earlier he had quite a few suspiscions of Amor and he FoS'ed Td when he replaced in as well.

He's suspected/FoS'ed/voted pretty much everyone and yet hasn't really said anything about JS till his latest post. Am I to believe he read back, had an epiphany, and all of a sudden saw JS as suspect? No.

[JimSauce]

Unvote.

Muerrto, I think you explained your vote well enough in #418, though I'm maintaining some suspicion because of the illogical argument you pushed on Bridges earlier. I noted that you felt your claim was sound after others argued against it, but you never explained why. If I ever bring up a case against you (and Bridges is confirmed town at the time) this accusation will probably play a substantial part in it. Also,

Am I to believe he read back, had an epiphany, and all of a sudden saw JS as suspect? No.

note: I write a lot about JS and WLC simply because I/most of the town has been ignoring them. I paid special attention to them during my re-read of the game.

He has been mentioning me "slipping through" during the course of the game. #427 is more or less an attempt to bring me into the spotlight.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Ok so I finished reading the thread and I wrote some basic notes. I should conclude my ideas sometime over the weekend, However, I'm having my birthday party on Saturday and an Improv show on Friday, so I will be busy. I'll try to squeeze some stuff in though. We'll see.