Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[curiouskarmadog]

I love the saying "if I was scum"

Muerrto, if I meta your scum games...will I find this a lie?

Official Vote Count

Not Voting - 7 (Amor, curiouskarmadog, Macavenger, Muerrto, pinkkitten90, Radio_Interference, WeyounsLastClone)

4 to Lynch

[Muerrto]

Hehe good question. I usually use intimidation and interrogation and brow beat newbies into submission =) And when they slip up I pounce on it, blow it up, and get them lynched for it. Quite fun actually.

So I neither always tunnel nor never tunnel because it depends on the situation.

Of course my last post was WIFOM but so is saying I'm scum because I WAS pushing for his lynch. It took more than 1 vote to lynch him and he was definitely acting sufficiently scummy.

Tossing blame in hindsight is less than helpful(not saying you were but that's why I made the comment I did).

[curiouskarmadog]

umm, did I toss blame or even say you are scummy?

I asked you if my wagon was "easier" than Bab's, which you really havent answered.

you came back with a WIFOM statement, that probably really isnt true...I am just curious why you said it.

[Muerrto]

Reading makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

umm, did I toss blame or even say you are scummy?

Tossing blame in hindsight is less than helpful(not saying you were but that's why I made the comment I did).

No, you didn't toss blame, Mac did. I said that already.

[curiouskarmadog]

read it like you did though,

so was my wagon really easier than Bab's?

[Muerrto]

Grrr typed up a long post and it ate it.

Short story:

I'm town so I wasn't looking for which wagon was easier.

Bab jumped in, voted me for weak reasons, called it random and removed it immediately after called on it, called it random and then gave reasons for it, albeit weak ones, so it couldn't be random, voted or FoS'ed nearly everyone in the game and was 100% sure each time, and was lynched for it.

Trying to look at his wagon and say 'those people are scum' or trying to claim that he 'wasn't that scummy' is ridiculous and won't help us find the scum.

In fact

FoS: Mac

for coming in and immediately doing just that. Even saying BaB didn't seem scummy to him which is BS.

[Macavenger]

Ok, first of all, sorry for not getting my full case up earlier - I was going to do it last night, but it took longer than I expected so I got tired and went to bed.

I'll quickly address CKD's question first.

Mac, RI has done exact jack to help this town, again, why do you feel like he is town?

Well, firstly because I didn't see any real scumtells from him in my read.

I would disagree that he hasn't done anything to help the town. He's not the greatest townie ever by any means, but he's provided information and analysis on several players throughout Day 1. The only thing I can really see that might qualify as scummy is the fact that he never voted, to the best of my recollection. That's relatively minor though, and honestly if I were going to apply lack of voting as a scumtell in this town, you're all scum except Muerrto pretty much. In the absence of other scum tells from him, I'm inclined to think he's probably town.

Time for the main part of this, my case against Amor and Muerrto. I'm going to try to keep this quote-light, to prevent it from becoming too huge, and do it in kind of a PbP format, only highlighting posts I found something significant in.

Amor first.

As noted by RI, Amor starts out with fairly noncommittal posts. It's debatable whether this is really scummy. However, when called on this, Amor launches into a full attack on BaB (post 125). Now, Amor has already tried to explain why this isn't scummy, and CKD also said in post 401 that he thought the style change was a null tell. I disagree. For starters, there are plenty of ways to change a noncommittal style other than launching an attack. Simpling stating conclusions with more confidence instead of waffling on them would be a good start, as could trying to do more direct questioning/scumhunting. Making an all out attack under pressure from the town to change your play is something I see as a bit over the top, and more likely to come from scum. In addition to this general thought, I see specific things I don't like in Amor's attack in post 125.

I feel Amor is reaching on several points in his attack on BaB in 125. He calls BaB's initial enthusiasm for lynching scummy. This would be true for an experienced player, but I've also seen it be an extremely common view of newbies making their first few game posts (the other being "we should no lynch because we have no info"). Even by this point in the thread, it was pretty clear to me BaB hadn't played before, and he backed down immediately when told why this attitude was bad. Amor also suggests invoking LAL on BaB's admission that his case was weak, saying he either knowingly posted a weak case, or lied about doing so. This is another case that I think the use of the newbie card was quite realistic - and advocating a policy lynch against a brand new player seems a bit extreme to me.

The thing that bothers me most about 125 though is that he quotes BaB out of context. He offers the following quote:

Also RI: I wasn't asking you for a case-by-case scum essay against Amor, I was just curious how you said his posts were wishy-washy.Everyone should read your post (121) looking for how Amor is extremely neutral. Then, it is a very strong and direct case.

And then claims BaB is trying to use RI to accuse him without getting his own hands dirty. But he leaves off the following part of BaB's post:

Linking this indecisiveness to being scummy is the weak part.

Amor could be a mafia member trying to fit in, not helping the town, while at the same time not lurking. Or, he could just be trying to not offend anyone so that they don't attack him, because he is a townsperson.


***The last part of this post was me making fun of Amor's "attack and defend" technique. It would have been funnier if I hadn't pointed that this is a joke. I was afraid people might not get the joke, since it is, in fact, The Internet.

(Italics mine) BaB is pretty clearly not trying to accuse Amor here, just pointing out that his posting style could be more helpful to the town. He agrees that it isn't scummy, then jokes about the style. Yet Amor omits this part of the quote that makes part of his accusation against BaB entirely false.

In post 211, Amor makes his comment about BaB the possible VI being a safe lynch, which has also been brought up before. I still think this looks scummy. Amor implies significant doubt that BaB is scum, but calls him a safe lynch anyway. He tries to clarify this in 219, but I'm not sure that I believe the clarification, or that it helps much. You don't lynch VIs, you ignore them. Amor thinking he's scum is find and dandy, but he's acting like other people should be ok with the lynch even if they think BaB is town, which is not.

Also in 219, Amor mentions BaB flip flopping. I'm really not seeing this. The only real significant case of it up to that point in my mind was the turnaround on Occult, which looked like a normal newbie action to me. He never really went after Amor, and his first real "informed" case was against CKD. Saying he's flip flopping is an exaggeration, in my opinion.

Posts 249 and 265 to me feel a bit like he's sitting back, watching the BaB/CKD argument play out, looking which way might be most advantageous to jump. He's voting BaB throughout this, but making noises about CKD being scummy in the argument, possibly setting the stage to hop his vote over to CKD if a wagon on him gains momentum. I also had that in my notes as possible distancing with CKD at the time, although I think that's less likely now.

Post 348 He calls out BaB's unvote from CKD and need to rethink things a scummy retreat. This is really reaching in my opinion. BaB and CKD have had a large argument to this point, and I see no reason why BaB could not have decided CKD was defnding himself well and gone to reread to find new suspects. I've done this myself as town on more than one occassion.

Also note for future reference, in 348 Amor calls BaB an easy target.

Post 421, while defending himself from CKD, Amor accuses BaB of flip flopping again. I still disagree, and still think this is reaching. Also, claiming "BaB does it more!" in response to CKD accusing you of flip flopping is not a particularly encouraging defense, even if I did agree BaB did it more, which I don't.

Post 527 he calls BaB for stepping back from the game to write a big information post scummy. Again, there's nothing wrong with pausing to reread. Are you just looking for thigns to attack him over? You also claim his big post was information, not analysis, while admitting he builds a case against JS in it. Now, I happen to know his case was off the mark, but that doesn't make it not analysis. You're still nitpicking/reaching here - posts like that giving that much information and analysis, especially looking at players who've basically flown under the radar the whole game, are good for town.

---

Ok, Muerrto now.

Starting with his first serious post (274), Muerrto comes on hard against BaB. He again calls him for flip flopping, which I've explained why I think is a bad accusation. He also harps on a few contradictions BaB made in his first couple posts while he was figuring things out, and for pulling the newb card too much. Let me ask you Muerrto, is it scummy to call yourself a newbie when it's blatantly true? I also don't like how you're basing a lot of your attack on his first few posts when he was clearly still figuring out how the game worked, especially when people at the time - including the player you replaced - didn't think it was a big deal.

Post 315 Muerrto makes his big WIFOM post about how mafia could have used his questions to push against BaB. He admits that a section of it is WIFOM (Amor wouldn't be bussing yet, so he's town) and tries to explain why it makes sense. I don't know if I entirely agree with that, but I do know the whole argument overlooks the fact that two scum could already be pushing from before those questions - namely Muerrto and Amor. Frankly I find the entire idea that someone is more likely to be scum just because people don't hop on a bandwagon to be pretty crappy, WIFOM, and not the good kind of WIFOM Muerrto talks about.

Also, again note for future reference that Muerrto calls BaB an easy target in post 315.

Post 369 while discussing BaB bandwagoning he throws in the bit about BaB accusing Amor when RI did. I already showed how this is false above where Amor misquoted his argument. So his only real bandwagoning is his initial swing against Occult, which is a pretty lame reason to call him newb scum because of bandwagoning. One time does not make him a wagon hopper.

Post 404, in response to CKD making a case against Amor, Muerrto votes him just because he previously spent more time writing about suspicions of BaB and didn't vote. This is pretty crappy for a number of reasons. Post length doesn't equate to strength of case. Furthermore, CKD said he thought BaB was quite possibly town even at a couple points during the argument with him. Muerrto quickly backs off of this stance when CKD mentions that part, but I still find it possibly highly significant because CKD's case is against Amor, my other top suspect. I can easily see this as trying to deflect attention from a scumbuddy that's just been accused.

Post 435 Muerrto jsut votes BaB again because of his long post providing information and analyzing JS and WLC, because "he attacks a different person every day and never votes." How the hell is rereading and trying to put out information on players who haven't been paid much attention to anti-town? Are you justl ooking for any reason to accuse him here?

Post 447, in part:

He's suspected/FoS'ed/voted pretty much everyone and yet hasn't really said anything about JS till his latest post. Am I to believe he read back, had an epiphany, and all of a sudden saw JS as suspect? No.

Why not? Nobody else had really said anything about JS up to that point either. What the hell is wrong with rereading and bringing out information on less examined players? You're attacking him for things I would consider borderline town tells here!

Post 542 Muerrto claims BaB is scum because he doesn't want to die, and shouldn't care if town as he's already put out lots of information. My reaction to this post was just WTF? Town doesn't want to die any more than scum do, it's just a lower priority for them than scum. The scumtell is when not dying appears to be your first priority over getting out information or scumhunting, which in BaB's case it blatantly was not. Accusing someone for defending themselves while they're still contributing to the town is just stupid.

---

That's pretty much what I have from yesterday.

Now, looking at a couple things today.

I made it quite clear how much I thought of BaB's 'cases' on everyone, including YOU, CKD, Sauce, Me, Amor, Black, etc. In almost all his cases he was 100% sure he'd found the scum. Since we don't have 6 scum...

Possibly exaggerating to try to justify his involvement with the lynch here. He never really made a case against Amor, and the only ones I thought he acted 100% sure on were Occult and CKD. His first two of the day, when he hadn't really learned better yet. Obviously he was wrong with a bunch of them, but you're exaggerating how bad they were here.

Amor and Muerrto have both claimed today that BaB was not an easy wagon, in response to me accusing them of that, claiming several people called him town, etc. Well yes, but the people calling him town were also calling him a VI, and there was no one willing to stand up and say "no we shouldn't lynch him," and there wasn't any real competing wagon. That makes him an easy target. Further, as I noted when going through your posts above,

both of you called him an easy target yesterday.

This really looks like scum trying to disconnect themselves from their part in a lousy town lynch to me.

Muerrto also drops an FoS on me here for today claiming I didn't find BaB overly scummy, and looking at his wagon for scum. This feels kinda weird to me. In my other games, looking at wagons, especially of townies but even of scum, in order to find scum on the wagon is a pretty big part of scumhunting on Day 2 and later. Further, why is it so weird that I could say I didn't think he was scum reading him? I admit I have an advantage that way since I knew he was town when I started reading him, but even without that knowledge several people yesterday came to the same conclusion.

Overall I feel slightly more confident in my case on Amor - I get more of a bad vibe reading him, and some of the stuff I'm pointing out on Muerrto could be his aggressive style - so since I'm not afraid to throw votes around when not in LyLo, I'll

Vote: Amor

.

[Muerrto]

My only defense, because it's just that easy is that I'm better scum than that.

You're saying me and Amor are partners and we both sat on the same target all day pushing his lynch?

Lol that's god awful.

[Macavenger]

My only defense, because it's just that easy is that I'm better scum than that.

You're saying me and Amor are partners and we both sat on the same target all day pushing his lynch?

Lol that's god awful.

No, I'm saying you and Amor are scum because, in my opinion, you both pushed crappy reasons for BaB being scum, and lynched him on those crappy reasons.

I'm quite open to discussion as to why I might be wrong, but saying "I'm better scum than that" doesn't do much for me.

I actually don't see much in the way of connections between you and Amor, which could be an argument against both of you being scum. But then everyone spent so much of the day discussing BaB that I'm not sure how many solid connections there would be to find. So right now I'm just going on individual scumminess, and you and Amor are my top two in that category.

[Muerrto]

Shrug I'll re-read Amor and see what I think but I thought you were saying we're BOTH scum which is simply ridiculous, that was my point.

I still don't like you jumping on anyone on BaB, classic scum move to try and lynch people on the previous mislynch. Since you replaced Sauce, who lurked alot and kind of rode the fence I'm even more suspiscious.

[curiouskarmadog]

I agree that AMor is scummy (though I think it might be for different reason), I dont agree that he was stretching in regards to BaB being flip floppy...BaB was being flip floppy a good portion of the game..what is the stretch is that Amor stated Bab was scummy for being flip floppy.

Was it RI that called out AMor for fence sitting? If so, that does go in the favor of RI.

I will have to reread Muerrto.

I also think that a reread of pinkkitten might be in order (Pink was in TD's top two suspects yesterday)

I still feel like WLC and AMor are the scummiest

[Macavenger]

I agree that AMor is scummy (though I think it might be for different reason), I dont agree that he was stretching in regards to BaB being flip floppy...BaB was being flip floppy a good portion of the game..what is the stretch is that Amor stated Bab was scummy for being flip floppy.

This is probably just a semantic difference in our arguments. I'm certainly not trying to argue that BaB never changed his opinions. I tend to associate flip flopping with changing them rapidly in a scummy way, which he didn't do to speak of. If you're defining flip flopping more broadly, but as not necessarily scummy when done for acceptable reasons, then I agree with you.

Was it RI that called out AMor for fence sitting? If so, that does go in the favor of RI.

Yeah, RI was the one who pointed out how Amor kept all his posts very neutral prior to his attack on BaB.

I still feel like WLC and AMor are the scummiest

I didn't really catch anything about WLC on my read other than being lurky, but I'll try to reread him sometime soon. Should be a lot easier than rereading most parts of the thread, at least.

[curiouskarmadog]

Mac, what is your thoughts about WLC's attack yesterday?..he voted me because he said I clogged the thread yesterday and this was an obvious scummy act, yet he didnt attack or vote BaB...why would I be scummy for this yesterday and BaB not?

[WeyounsLastClone]

Mac, what is your thoughts about WLC's attack yesterday?..he voted me because he said I clogged the thread yesterday and this was an obvious scummy act, yet he didnt attack or vote BaB...why would I be scummy for this yesterday and BaB not?

Not that I don't want Mac to answer, but why I found you scummier is because I found your play more manipulative, whereas I saw BaB as a somewhat desperate and misguided townie who still was starting to play mafia. I found the whole discussion suspicious, and I said I had my reservations yesterday about BaB, but with BaB gone now, you're still looking suspicious to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

Now you are back tracking. First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative. please explain or post where my play was manipulative? I want to see quotes. It is easy to say the sky is blue, but I little harder to back up the statement... please provide quotes where my play was manipulative.

also please explain why you didnt state my play was manipulative yesterday...this was your case.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy.

Vote curiouskarmadog.

.

nice back tracking...

I would like others to address this too.

[Muerrto]

Now you are back tracking. First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative. please explain or post where my play was manipulative? I want to see quotes. It is easy to say the sky is blue, but I little harder to back up the statement... please provide quotes where my play was manipulative.

Sky's blue cause of light and the ozone etc..

Anyway, I didn't see it as manipulative, I saw you as legitimately getting frustrated by a frustrating player. So was mine. Difference is you excused his tells, I didn't. If WLC is attacking you for the one, how can you possibly attack me for the other?

[Amor]

Okay, let's tackle this.

Amor first.

As noted by RI, Amor starts out with fairly noncommittal posts. It's debatable whether this is really scummy. However, when called on this, Amor launches into a full attack on BaB (post 125). Now, Amor has already tried to explain why this isn't scummy, and CKD also said in post 401 that he thought the style change was a null tell. I disagree. For starters, there are plenty of ways to change a noncommittal style other than launching an attack. Simpling stating conclusions with more confidence instead of waffling on them would be a good start, as could trying to do more direct questioning/scumhunting. Making an all out attack under pressure from the town to change your play is something I see as a bit over the top, and more likely to come from scum. In addition to this general thought, I see specific things I don't like in Amor's attack in post 125.

It was a bit drastic, but I wanted to do something major to try and help. I think it might have been too far in the other direction.

I feel Amor is reaching on several points in his attack on BaB in 125. He calls BaB's initial enthusiasm for lynching scummy. This would be true for an experienced player, but I've also seen it be an extremely common view of newbies making their first few game posts (the other being "we should no lynch because we have no info"). Even by this point in the thread, it was pretty clear to me BaB hadn't played before, and he backed down immediately when told why this attitude was bad. Amor also suggests invoking LAL on BaB's admission that his case was weak, saying he either knowingly posted a weak case, or lied about doing so. This is another case that I think the use of the newbie card was quite realistic - and advocating a policy lynch against a brand new player seems a bit extreme to me.

You may be right in this case, but these are still generally scummy things to do. I was pointing out general tells that BaB had committed. You may think it was misguided, but how was it scummy?

The thing that bothers me most about 125 though is that he quotes BaB out of context. He offers the following quote:

Also RI: I wasn't asking you for a case-by-case scum essay against Amor, I was just curious how you said his posts were wishy-washy.Everyone should read your post (121) looking for how Amor is extremely neutral. Then, it is a very strong and direct case.

And then claims BaB is trying to use RI to accuse him without getting his own hands dirty. But he leaves off the following part of BaB's post:

Linking this indecisiveness to being scummy is the weak part.

Amor could be a mafia member trying to fit in, not helping the town, while at the same time not lurking. Or, he could just be trying to not offend anyone so that they don't attack him, because he is a townsperson.


***The last part of this post was me making fun of Amor's "attack and defend" technique. It would have been funnier if I hadn't pointed that this is a joke. I was afraid people might not get the joke, since it is, in fact, The Internet.

(Italics mine) BaB is pretty clearly not trying to accuse Amor here, just pointing out that his posting style could be more helpful to the town. He agrees that it isn't scummy, then jokes about the style. Yet Amor omits this part of the quote that makes part of his accusation against BaB entirely false.

Personally, I thought the entire second paragraph of that post was a joke. Even if it wasn't, it still felt like an indirect attack to me.

It's sort of hard for me to defend my case on BaB here, because it did in fact turn out to be wrong. But I maintain that I had solid reasons for going after him, and I don't think making a well-founded case against someone who ultimately turned out to be town is scummy. It's also really easy for you to attack it, seeing as how when you replaced in you had the benefit of hindsight.

In post 211, Amor makes his comment about BaB the possible VI being a safe lynch, which has also been brought up before. I still think this looks scummy. Amor implies significant doubt that BaB is scum, but calls him a safe lynch anyway. He tries to clarify this in 219, but I'm not sure that I believe the clarification, or that it helps much. You don't lynch VIs, you ignore them. Amor thinking he's scum is find and dandy, but he's acting like other people should be ok with the lynch even if they think BaB is town, which is not.

I've defended this before. My perspective is, if we hadn't lynched BaB he would have continued to dominate conversation, and it would distract us from other scum. A person who has been heavily discussed, acted scummy, doesn't make consistent/logical arguments but is really town (as it turns out, I was only thinking of this as a slim possiblity when I made the statement) would be a huge liability in LyLo.

]Also in 219, Amor mentions BaB flip flopping. I'm really not seeing this. The only real significant case of it up to that point in my mind was the turnaround on Occult, which looked like a normal newbie action to me. He never really went after Amor, and his first real "informed" case was against CKD. Saying he's flip flopping is an exaggeration, in my opinion.

Even CKD agrees that BaB was flip-flopping. Why are you spending so much time defending a dead townie, other than to get town brownie points?

Posts 249 and 265 to me feel a bit like he's sitting back, watching the BaB/CKD argument play out, looking which way might be most advantageous to jump. He's voting BaB throughout this, but making noises about CKD being scummy in the argument, possibly setting the stage to hop his vote over to CKD if a wagon on him gains momentum. I also had that in my notes as possible distancing with CKD at the time, although I think that's less likely now.

I honestly thought that both acted suspiciously at points in the argument. JimSauce, who you replaced, said much the same thing.

Post 348 He calls out BaB's unvote from CKD and need to rethink things a scummy retreat. This is really reaching in my opinion. BaB and CKD have had a large argument to this point, and I see no reason why BaB could not have decided CKD was defnding himself well and gone to reread to find new suspects. I've done this myself as town on more than one occassion.

Also note for future reference, in 348 Amor calls BaB an easy target.

I was agreeing with Muertto that

in a regular game

BaB would be an easy target for the mafia. However, as I said in that same post, since people were so vote-shy this game it would be less likely for scum to be trying to bandwagon him.

As for the retreating thing, I stand by my point.

Post 421, while defending himself from CKD, Amor accuses BaB of flip flopping again. I still disagree, and still think this is reaching. Also, claiming "BaB does it more!" in response to CKD accusing you of flip flopping is not a particularly encouraging defense, even if I did agree BaB did it more, which I don't.

The point was that my "flip flops" were normal town changes of opinions, and I used BaB's as contrasts.

Post 527 he calls BaB for stepping back from the game to write a big information post scummy. Again, there's nothing wrong with pausing to reread. Are you just looking for thigns to attack him over? You also claim his big post was information, not analysis, while admitting he builds a case against JS in it. Now, I happen to know his case was off the mark, but that doesn't make it not analysis. You're still nitpicking/reaching here - posts like that giving that much information and analysis, especially looking at players who've basically flown under the radar the whole game, are good for town.

Like I said, big parts of BaB's were pure informational recap, and the rest of it was a case against Sauce and WLC. The case was the etnire analysis, with the rest of it being information, but BaB was trying to pass it out as a super-town uber-document. Also, BaB explicitly said he was retreating to get out of the centre of attention. How is that not scummy? And how is letting yourself, a townie, get lynched and not even defend yourself pro-town? I stand by my point here

Muerrto, is that really your only defense against this? "I wouldn't be so obvious as scum?" Really?

[Macavenger]

I'm working on a partial reread, with focus on WLC. Unfortunately I'm going to have fairly limited access this weekend, and have another game at a key spot that's higher priority than this one right now. May not be able to get much of substance up before Monday. Should be able to post some more thoughts and answer Amor's post then.

[Amor]

Mod, can we get a prod on Radio_Interference? He hasn't posted at all today, and has been generally inactive (never posted that vote for CKD he said he was going to.

I'd also like to hear something more substantial from kitten.

[Muerrto]

Sorry for the lack of input. Will try tuesday. Mac can attest I'm in another game requiring more of my attention atm. Sorry again. Hard to re-read 24 pages =p

[Macavenger]

Sorry for the lack of input. Will try tuesday. Mac can attest I'm in another game requiring more of my attention atm. Sorry again. Hard to re-read 24 pages =p

Yes, yes I can. Lynch every two days gogogoogogo!

[WeyounsLastClone]

Now you are back tracking. First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative. please explain or post where my play was manipulative? I want to see quotes. It is easy to say the sky is blue, but I little harder to back up the statement... please provide quotes where my play was manipulative.

also please explain why you didnt state my play was manipulative yesterday...this was your case.

Now, to take a more pro-active stance, rereading what's going on through BaB's analysis and thinking over the game, I still find Boggzie's behavior strange, especially going away like that. Also, ckd's behavior, going into a circular discussion with BaB like that, while not actually thinking BaB is scum, I don't know, I think it really distracted town, and I'm thinking it's really a bit scummy.

Vote curiouskarmadog.

.

nice back tracking...

I would like others to address this too.

I'm not saying you were directly manipulating town, but in the ckd/BaB discussion I felt you were the more steering one (my post was about I felt you were a bit more manipulative than BaB, not directly the most manipulating scum I've ever seen). You say "First I clogged the thread on purpose, now I was manipulative." and make it sound they are completely different things, but I think they got together with your actions.

[pinkkitten90]

Many times. Yes. I've been at page 30 over a span of 3 months on day 1 and the mod was in the game.

Have you?

nope. mine have most gone for 10-17 pages for the first day.

[Muerrto]

Um...you lurk for days and respond to my 1 line with your 1 line? Nothing about anything else anyone's said at all? About the WLC/CKD thing, Amor, RI?

[pinkkitten90]

ok i was not lurking i was in the hospital,
and at the time it was 1030 at night and i only got to read half of page 24 before i had to go to bed. it is now in school and i will post as soon as i can as i have to actually finish reading it all.