Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Muerrto]

Ahem *clears throat*

'Bah'

Official Vote Count

Macavenger - 1 (Harvey Pew)

Not Voting - 4 (Amor, curiouskarmadog, Macavenger, WeyounsLastClone)

3 to Lynch

[Amor]

Vote: Macavenger

!!!

You do realize we're in LyLo, right? What's your reasoning for voting Mac, anyways?

Just to make sure everyone understands: since we know there are two scum and three townies, if a townie votes for another townie both scum can quickly vote for them and win the game. So usual protocol is not to vote unless you're absolutely convinced that someone is scum.

[Gamma]

Wait, how did you know I was allergic to lead?

[Macavenger]

Harvey, if you're town, you want to unvote me before the scum can hop on to end the game. Sooner is better.

Just to make sure everyone understands: since we know there are two scum and three townies, if a townie votes for another townie both scum can quickly vote for them and win the game. So usual protocol is not to vote unless you're absolutely convinced that someone is scum.

This.

I'm going to need to do some rereading. Obviously Muerrto wasn't connected to WLC. That said, CKD's main case on WLC still seems pretty reasonable. Hammer also seemed slightly premature to me - I had the impression CKD hadn't yet said everything he really wanted to. I was not happy to come back from work and find Muerrto already dead on Thursday - I was trying to keep him off L-1 specifically to avoid a hammer that early. I thought -2 would probably be safe, but apparently not...

I'm not really seeing much in the way of connections in this game, which kinda sucks because it would be better to find both scum today. During night I was thinking possibly WLC and going back to my old case on Amor. Harvey's quick vote today is definitely suspect, though - want to see how he reacts when he gets back to the thread, and hope that happens before the scum get here if he's town.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Harvey, please unvote. We can't afford any mistakes at the moment, and I think it's better to analyse and discuss before we place any votes in a lylo-situation.

And Mac, it's bullshit that ckd didnt say anything he wanted to say. It was clear he wanted me to vote Muerrto instead of him. I know I should've let my vote stay were it was.

I get a more unsettling feeling towards Mac considering his position on Muerrto yesterday, and what he comes up with today. While not overly obvious, I could see ckd/Mac being partners. On the other hand, I absolutely don't like Harvey's only day 3 post being a vote without explanation, and yesterday voting for Muerrto just to get things moving.

I'm interested in what ckd has to say at the moment.

[Harvey Pew]

I absolutely don't like Harvey's only day 3 post being a vote without explanation, and yesterday voting for Muerrto just to get things moving.

It is pretty simple, I think Macavenger is scum therefore I put my vote on him. If I'm wrong we lose, if I'm right it will be the first successful lynching in 850-or-so posts of analysis and discussion. So, statistically, I'm probably wrong.

And I voted for Muerrto because I was ticked off at him, not to get things moving.

[Amor]

I absolutely don't like Harvey's only day 3 post being a vote without explanation, and yesterday voting for Muerrto just to get things moving.

It is pretty simple, I think Macavenger is scum therefore I put my vote on him. If I'm wrong we lose, if I'm right it will be the first successful lynching in 850-or-so posts of analysis and discussion. So, statistically, I'm probably wrong.

And I voted for Muerrto because I was ticked off at him, not to get things moving.

Why do you think Macavenger is scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

back earlier than expected..it is going to take me a couple days to get caught up on all my games...few notes though

Gamma was town?...interesting..I actually thought I would be killed last night.

Harvey..remove the vote, IMMEDIATELY..I know this is a newbie game, but really, but we are in lylo...that being said, it looks like everyone has checked in today ...which means that it is VERY doubtful that Amor and WLC are scum together. It also increases the possibility that either Harvey or Mac (or both?)are scum...I also note a lie in post 855 in regards to Harvey's vote on Muerrto..you voted Muerrto why?..that is not what you said yesterday.

I am putting this game to the top of my list and should be able to post more Monday or Tuesday.

[Harvey Pew]

!!!

Harvey..remove the vote, IMMEDIATELY

Harvey, please unvote.

Harvey, if you're town, you want to unvote me before the scum can hop on to end the game.

And yet the scum have

not

piled in and join me and voted for Mac and so

won the game

.

I can't think of better proof that Mac is scum.

[curiouskarmadog]

I can't think of better proof that Mac is scum.

really?..this cant have any other meaning?

[curiouskarmadog]

also, harvey...you did not address my question to you from post 857, please do so now.

[WeyounsLastClone]

I can't think of better proof that Mac is scum.

At best it's proof that either you or Mac is scum. Or even both.

And the reasoning, I'm voting because I think he's scum is not really an explanation. Any specific things you make you see him as most likely scum or is it just a gut feeling that makes you do the first thing in a lylo situation put a vote out without reasoning?

[Harvey Pew]

At best it's proof that either you or Mac is scum. Or even both.

Yes, I recognised that possibility but since I am town it is proof absolute that Mac is scum.

Further, I stated earlier that if Muerrto was shown to be town it would make his reasoning "gold". I saw that Muerrto was town and so I immediately voted for the individual that Muerrto had argued for prior to his untimely lynching. And all subsequent posts to my vote have proved Muerrto to be correct.

also, harvey...you did not address my question to you from post 857.

You are mistaken. I stated earlier that I voted for him out of "(mild) animus" and I later said I voted him because he "ticked [me] off". The meaning is effectively identical and there are no

reasonable

grounds to claim I lied -

except to try and discredit my vote

.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, harvey...you did not address my question to you from post 857.

You are mistaken. I stated earlier that I voted for him out of "(mild) animus" and I later said I voted him because he "ticked [me] off". The meaning is effectively identical and there are no

reasonable

grounds to claim I lied -

except to try and discredit my vote

.

You said that you voted him out of mild animus two weeks after your vote on him.

And I voted for Muerrto because I was ticked off at him, not to get things moving.

For you to say that you did not vote Muerrto to get things moving, is a lie!

Ah... erm... well... you see I'm stuck with something of a quandary. I'm a little impatient and this game is really dragging (just check its Activity Constant and see) so any activity, e.g. a lynch, is good. But, as Muerrto is reckoning, I'm not entirely convinced he is scum and I voted for him out of (mild) animus not scum detecteringness (now there is a compound word!).

However, I think I will leave my vote where it is. If Muerrto

is

lynched as a townie then his arguments become gold and the next day's lynch target is

really

obvious.

You state that you are not even convinced he is scum, and you comment on the acticity and how the game is dragging. You really suspect anyone to swallow that?

So don’t you even pull that crap about I am trying to discredit you...I am quoting your post word for word. I even called you out yesterday for being impatient and/or a poor player. You helped lynch Muerrto and stated that if he is town, you know where your vote will go next….classic example of setting up a lynch. No protown player would come out with a vote at Lylo.

Speaking of LYLO, this particular position gives us some statistical information. It is highly likely that there are:

1-2 scum in this group A: Harvey, Mac

And

0-1 scum in this group B: Myself, WLC, Amor.

Again, I say that it is highly likely, meaning that there is a possibility that there are two scum in group B. WLC and AMor could be scum together, waiting to get online together at the same time…although, I have gotten big scum vibes off both the past couple days, it is very damn doubtful that they are scum together.

I want everyone to comment on my Group theory. Especially Harvey and Mac.

Harvey I don’t care if you are an impatient player…like I told you yesterday, if you have a problem with it, replace out (if I didn’t I should have).

…more to come tomorrow.

[Amor]

I was thinking much the same thing, CKD. It's possible that you and WLC (from my perspective) could be scum trying to synchronize, or that Mac and Harvey are playing one hell of a scum gambit... but I doubt it. That means that we should probably choose between the two of them for our lynch today.

I would lean towards Macavenger for this, as he's one of my main suspects for scum for reasons explained earlier. (He's been acting more town lately, but I'm still suspicious.) I really don't see what scum would gain out of making such a vote, especially if they were in Harvey's position of relative non-suspicion. (Compared to everyone else). So it's more likely Harvey just made a dumb newbie mistake. The only thing weird about that is that his play on D2 didn't scream "dumb newbie" at all to me.

I also dispute Harvey's argument that since Muerrto was proven town and suspected Macavenger that makes Mac scum. Townies can obviously argue for the lynches of other townies.

[Harvey Pew]

You helped lynch Muerrto... No protown player would come out with a vote at Lylo.

I voted for Muerrto but didn't help lynch him . He went to L-1 and there was a discussion, the votes on him went back down again and then suddenly he was hammered really quickly. I have been at a on/off L-1 myself for a long round of votes and discussion and so I don't regard it as especially dangerous - although it

did

go bad for me and for Muerrto.

As for the second part of your post that I quoted. That is just a plain foolish statement by you. The issue in Lylo is that the town has to make the

correct

vote as any incorrect voting will 'instantly' lead to a mafia win. I have made the correct vote.

So it's more likely Harvey just made a dumb newbie mistake.

I refer you to the above paragraph. You are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. If I made a dumb mistake the game would be over and the mafia would have won. It is solely the fact the the scum are desperately claiming I am not town that is clouding a

perfect

play.

I also dispute Harvey's argument that since Muerrto was proven town and suspected Macavenger that makes Mac scum. Townies can obviously argue for the lynches of other townies.

Muerrto was right - Mac is scum.

If you accept that I am town then it is oh so very very clear.

[curiouskarmadog]

I refer you to the above paragraph. You are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. If I made a dumb mistake the game would be over and the mafia would have won. It is solely the fact the the scum are desperately claiming I am not town that is clouding a

perfect

play.

stop pushing this as fact. for it is not fact..it is not obvious that what you have done is a town move..the only thing you have proven by your actions is that most likely wlc, amor, and I are not in a scum group that is all. SO you didnt help lynch Muerrto? You didnt state that his lynch would provide us information that would help us today? You didnt vote Muerrto though you felt he wasnt scum? However, exact is that not helping?

WLC, do not blame your Muerrto vote on me. You were the one that wanted everyone to believe that Muerrto was a scum care...I just commented on how your words did not match your actions. If you didnt feel like Muerrto was scum, you shouldnt have voted him.

Amor, I would not rule out that Harvey and Mac are in the same scum group so quickly, I have used the same gambit to win a newbie game as mafia, though, I wasnt bad enough to do it at LYLO..However the way that Harvey is trying to push his opinion as common knowledge and fact..the way he set up the lynch..the way that he placed his vote at LYLO without care...reeks of newbie scum

my vote will probably go on Harvey today...

[Harvey Pew]

the way that he placed his vote at LYLO without care...reeks of newbie scum

my vote will probably go on Harvey today...

The vote

was

placed with care. It was a risk - I could have lost the game for the town - but I was prepared to take it. In Lylo it eventually comes down to taking that chance - if a townie votes wrong then the town has lost. The fact I was prepared to do so immediately appears to have annoyed/suprised some people, but all the subsequent discussion following my coup is just repeatedly proving to me that the other townies don't know who the scum are. So if I had sat back and let the discussion proceed I have no confidence the right person would have been targeted.

Help kill Mac and then we can have some proper fun trying to tie down his accomplice.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Okay, I took a better look at Harvey Pew’s and Mac’s posts in this game. Both have behaved somewhat suspicious, I think. Here are some of the things that struck me as suspicious for both of them.

Harvey

Muerrto sez Amor/Mac. WLC sez CKD/Muerrto. We don't have four mafia in this town, do we? Is this another cycle of misinterpretation or is one pair working hard to throw suspicion onto another?

Convenient, as he’s in neither pair mentioned.

Maybe you should deadline!

Now in this case it might not have been completely unwarranted, but I usually don’t like people asking for a deadline. But it is in line with Harvey’s behavior to get the game moving on.

Ah... erm... well... you see I'm stuck with something of a quandary. I'm a little impatient and this game is really dragging (just check its Activity Constant and see) so any activity, e.g. a lynch, is good. But, as Muerrto is reckoning, I'm not entirely convinced he is scum and I voted for him out of (mild) animus not scum detecteringness (now there is a compound word!).

However, I think I will leave my vote where it is. If Muerrto is lynched as a townie then his arguments become gold and the next day's lynch target is really obvious.

This is what I really don’t like. Already trying to set up the day after. Somehow it feels Harvey was expecting Muerrto to come up town anyway. (Notice he doesn’t say who the obvious target would be, as at this point to me it could still have been Mac and Gamma; and Harvey doesn’t respond to Gamma who says he thinks would be the target).

In a way the Mac/Muerrto argument suggests that neither of them are scum (or the scum are playing a really delicious gambit) as they have both really screwed themselves if their target is town.

??? Here he thinks Mac and Muerrto wouldn’t go off each other like that if they’d be scum. Today he ignores this by voting Mac rightaway and comes with:

It is pretty simple, I think Macavenger is scum therefore I put my vote on him. If I'm wrong we lose, if I'm right it will be the first successful lynching in 850-or-so posts of analysis and discussion. So, statistically, I'm probably wrong.

And I voted for Muerrto because I was ticked off at him, not to get things moving.

And it seems he’s never sure if he voted Muerrto because he was ticked off, or wanted to get things moving.

Further, I stated earlier that if Muerrto was shown to be town it would make his reasoning "gold". I saw that Muerrto was town and so I immediately voted for the individual that Muerrto had argued for prior to his untimely lynching. And all subsequent posts to my vote have proved Muerrto to be correct.

He now uses Muerrto as tool and is getting into WIFOM-territory.

Macavenger

Day 1 seems to have been pretty dominated by back and forth about BaB. Honestly, I think the entire wagon on him was crap - I suppose that's easy for me to say now that I know he's town, but I never got a strong scumvibe reading him.

You can’t call such a wagon crap, especially not since it was BaB’s behavior that dominated day 1, and thus logically influences the day 1 voting.

so since I'm not afraid to throw votes around when not in LyLo, I'll Vote: Amor

Could be a bad excuse to throw votes around

I'm kinda starting to see some links in that direction, what with Muerrto backpedalling his pretty clear defenses of WLC, along with WLC's non-voting suspicion of Muerrto you pointed out. The problem of course being that I still agree with you that Amor is pretty scummy.

At this point I found Mac was a bit fetching to find points against Muerrto. It’s difficult to pinpoint it in Mac’s sometimes a bit elaborate posts, but I feel he exaggerated some of Muerrto’s actions. (Especially getting into the semantics of Muerrto supposedly defending me as opposed to Muerrto having no opinion on me).

As for CKD/WLC, CKD is definitely winning that argument. The more I read it, the less I like WLC's case on CKD, and the more I like CKD's return case. WLC's "manipulating" is pretty weak/reaching to me right now, and his attack out of the blue yesterday for something long since over still looks strange.

If Mac is scum this could either be defending his scumbuddy, or if I am wrong about ckd, trying to win someone over in a bad case. Don’t see how I was manipulating, while ckd was not. I felt (and still feel) ckd was putting words in my mouth, and not vice versa.

Hammer also seemed slightly premature to me - I had the impression CKD hadn't yet said everything he really wanted to. I was not happy to come back from work and find Muerrto already dead on Thursday - I was trying to keep him off L-1 specifically to avoid a hammer that early. I thought -2 would probably be safe, but apparently not...

So you were happy with your vote as long as Muerrto wasn’t lynched? On that note, I didn’t like ckd claiming to already put some things out for the next day, because he expected to be killed that night. Comments like ‘I’m going to get nightkilled’ or ‘I’m surprised to be alive because I was expected to be nightkilled’ leave me with a bitter taste in the mouth and are WIFOM.

At the moment I’m leaning towards a Harvey lynch today. Especially given his behavior toward the Muerrto lynch, and I get the uneasy feeling he was planning to set up another lynch with it today.

[Harvey Pew]

At the moment I’m leaning towards a Harvey lynch today.

This plus CKD's comment are, to me, so stupid. You will cap this game by voting yet another townie at the only time we have an absolute certain scum in are sights. I have got the tiger by the tail here and at least one of you two (CKD, WLC) cannot be mafia, yet by your completely wrong suspicions you are going to hand them the game!

For crying out loud - vote Mac.

[curiouskarmadog]

the way that he placed his vote at LYLO without care...reeks of newbie scum

my vote will probably go on Harvey today...

The vote

was

placed with care. It was a risk - I could have lost the game for the town - but I was prepared to take it. In Lylo it eventually comes down to taking that chance - if a townie votes wrong then the town has lost. The fact I was prepared to do so immediately appears to have annoyed/suprised some people, but all the subsequent discussion following my coup is just repeatedly proving to me that the other townies don't know who the scum are. So if I had sat back and let the discussion proceed I have no confidence the right person would have been targeted.

Help kill Mac and then we can have some proper fun trying to tie down his accomplice.

two notes here...

1.) if you really thought that Mac was scum, why not wait to see what he says and who he votes for?..why are you not trying to scum hunt and help the crowd.

2.) your last comment to me, sort of sounds like you know I am town...how do you know I am town?

[curiouskarmadog]

Harvey..you have not done anything today that is protown or in any means helpful.

please explain to me if you want to scum hunt, why couldnt you wait to vote Mac?

[Harvey Pew]

Harvey..you have not done anything today that is protown or in any means helpful.

Helpful?!! I have an absolute iron-clad rock-solid 100% scum identified and voted for. What more can anyone want?

please explain to me if you want to scum hunt, why couldnt you wait to vote Mac?

I want a proper scum hunt

tomorrow

after the lynching of Mac. As with one scum

finally

identified and lynched a proper analysis can be made.

I couldn't wait to vote for Mac because - as I have said before - I didn't believe anyone else had a better idea than Muerrto's and to wait would allow another townie to make a bad decision e.g. vote for me, and so lose the game. All these additional posts since my vote, either by townies or by scum desperately muddying the waters, have merely reinforced the validity of my decision to vote.

Now read this very carefully because I am sick of repeating myself. To the other remaining townies -

I am town, Mac is scum. Vote to lynch Mac or lose the game.

And until someone else votes that is all I have to say on the matter.

[Macavenger]

And yet the scum have not piled in and join me and voted for Mac and so won the game.

I can't think of better proof that Mac is scum.

Not a case. It basically proves that one of us is scum. The other townies don't know which.

Since Harvey hasn't unvoted and everyone else has been active (On the Sunday I decide to take off, go figure), and I'm not dead, Harvey's confirmed scum as far as I'm concerned.

Vote: Harvey

I want everyone to comment on my Group theory. Especially Harvey and Mac.

Given how much more has happened since you originally posted that, I think it's pretty clear at least one scum is among Harvey and I at this point. Obviously I know it's only 1, though I naturally don't expect everyone else to accept that at face value.

I would lean towards Macavenger for this, as he's one of my main suspects for scum for reasons explained earlier. (He's been acting more town lately, but I'm still suspicious.)

Did you ever particularly have a case on me specifically, or was it basically all JimSauce's play? Obviously I have to be accountable for JS's play since we share a role, even though I can't really defend it effectively, but if there was anything I specifically did, could you point it out again so I can answer about it?

I voted for Muerrto but didn't help lynch him Wink. He went to L-1 and there was a discussion, the votes on him went back down again and then suddenly he was hammered really quickly. I have been at a on/off L-1 myself for a long round of votes and discussion and so I don't regard it as especially dangerous - although it did go bad for me and for Muerrto.

Bullshit. You voted him, that's helping lynch him. You don't get to disconnect yourself from the wagon now just because you gave shitty reasons for voting him yesterday, and had your vote idling on him for a long time while other people were going back and forth. It was blatantly obvious that he was a high lynch candidate. If you weren't comfortable with that, you should have unvoted him.

As for the second part of your post that I quoted. That is just a plain foolish statement by you. The issue in Lylo is that the town has to make the correct vote as any incorrect voting will 'instantly' lead to a mafia win. I have made the correct vote.

And what exactly makes you so confident that you've made a correct vote, with no discussion today? Because town has to be correct in LyLo, they should generally be very slow and careful about it. Your quick vote today is anything but.

I refer you to the above paragraph. You are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. If I made a dumb mistake the game would be over and the mafia would have won. It is solely the fact the the scum are desperately claiming I am not town that is clouding a perfect play.

Assuming for the sake of argument for a second that you're town and I'm the scum, it's still a dumb newbie mistake. The fact that you guessed correctly does not make it a good play. That would be luck, not skill.

WLC -

You can’t call such a wagon crap, especially not since it was BaB’s behavior that dominated day 1, and thus logically influences the day 1 voting.

Why can't I? I think I explained pretty well why I didn't care for the reasons of two people who were voting for him. Just because he dominated D1 doesn't mean he has to be the lynch.

Could be a bad excuse to throw votes around

Could also be the truth. WIFOM. If you meta my other games, most of the time I vote much more freely than people in this game had been, at least up to that point.

At this point I found Mac was a bit fetching to find points against Muerrto. It’s difficult to pinpoint it in Mac’s sometimes a bit elaborate posts, but I feel he exaggerated some of Muerrto’s actions. (Especially getting into the semantics of Muerrto supposedly defending me as opposed to Muerrto having no opinion on me).

I still fail to see how "No, he hasn't triggered my scumdar at all, all game, period" is consistent with "Null read." When someone is that emphatic about not seeing anything scummy from a person, I tend to interpret it as thinking of them as town.

So you were happy with your vote as long as Muerrto wasn’t lynched? On that note, I didn’t like ckd claiming to already put some things out for the next day, because he expected to be killed that night. Comments like ‘I’m going to get nightkilled’ or ‘I’m surprised to be alive because I was expected to be nightkilled’ leave me with a bitter taste in the mouth and are WIFOM.

I'm fine with the fact that Muerrto was lynched; I'm just a little unhappy with the timing. I think I made it pretty clear that I wasn't quite ready for a hammer on Muerrto yet, because I wanted to let CKD talk a little bit more. I was trying to keep my vote on Muerrto as much as possible, because that's who i wanted lynched, while keeping him off L-1 to prevent quick hammers and let CKD talk. When I revoted it put him on L-2. Five hours later when I got home he was dead. That's not exactly what I was expecting. The hammer felt a bit off because generally townies are willing to wait a bit to place a hammer if someone requests it. Beyond that one quibble, I didn't see anything wrong with your hammer.

Can you imagine the field day scum would have had today had I not revoted him, and say CKD or someone hammered him before I got home? "OMG, Mac didn't want to commit to this wagon he's been pushing all day, he must be scumz!"

I couldn't wait to vote for Mac because - as I have said before - I didn't believe anyone else had a better idea than Muerrto's and to wait would allow another townie to make a bad decision e.g. vote for me, and so lose the game.

How the hell can you be so sure Muerrto was right about me? He was quite clearly wrong about BaB and Gamma - he thought they were both scum, and now they're dead townies. That certainly doesn't mean he was wrong about me either, but placing so much faith in the words of a dead townie who's been proven wrong twice is just stupid.

Muerrto barely even had a case against me. All I ever got out of it was "you're pushing a bad case on me, and you're too confident." He never really explained why the case was bad, and I don't buy confidence being a scumtell.

I've yet to see any of your own reasons for why you think I'm scum. Is "Muerrto said so" all you've got?

I am town, Mac is scum. Vote to lynch Mac or lose the game.

You saying that doesn't make it so, it can only be judged by your actions. Frankly, your actions the past couple days haven't been very protown.

I'm going to be pretty busy today, and possibly tomorrow. I will try to get a reread in to attempt to figure out who Harvey's buddy is by Wednesday.

[curiouskarmadog]

can we hold off on votes please?

Mac, who do you think that Harvey's scum partner is and why?
Harvey, who do you think that Mac's scum partner is and why?