Newbie 580 - Game Over!

[Muerrto]

Thanks for the responses. I'll respond to 'em when more people post theirs.

Official Vote Count

BridgesAndBaloons - 2 (Amor, Muerrto)

curiouskarmadog - 1 (BridgesAndBaloons)
Amor - 1 (cerebus3)
td - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)

Not Voting - 4 (curiouskarmadog, JimSauce, Radio_Interference, td)

5 to Lynch

[Amor]

I think I see what you are getting at, but what you have suggested is (ironically) WIFOM. If he doesn't realize the things he is doing is scummy, then he is just as likely to do it as town then as scum. What you have pointed out shows why it is a null-tell, and not a townie tell, but it also is not a scum-tell. That said, if you want to hold him accountable to his actions, by all means go ahead.

But scummy actions are, by definition, things which scum are more likely to do. It's not like scum decide "Well, I'm mafia, so I'd better do something scummy". So if BaB doesn't know how his actions will make him look, and he does something scummy, it means that he's more likely to be scum because of those actions.

Bah. This was a side point anyway, it's not worth getting derailed over.

Interesting questions, Muertto. I'll have to think on them and post my answers later tonight or tomorrow.

[cerebus3]

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

The first time I read Bab's case on Occult, I nearly choked on how scummy the argument was, but I was sort of swayed by the sentiments of other players that maybe the newbie card was justified. Yes, the VI thing was kind of drastic, but I wanted to do something drastic to get the game moving again. I don't think it worked too well though. I am beginning to move back to the Bab is scummy side though, and I think that some of his stuff couldn't be excused with the simple newbie card (though it could with the VI card.) In the end, I really just want to look at other players, but it is pretty hard when half of them are lurking and the other half aren't really looking at other players themselves.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

I was pretty much going to write what you wrote. I don't really think it was as big a deal as some players made it out to be. I think that WLC tried used that as justification to vote him was a stretch.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

No it isn't a scum tell, and lurking doesn't bother me if the players still contribute when they do post. Considering that Blacks last post was 5 days ago, I don't really think he improved that much.

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

Kinda. It really depends on the purpose of the discussion. It is kind of important to understand where someone is coming from when they declare something pro-town and whatnot. For instance, Jim's stance that Boggzie was both pro-town and scummy could be seen as a contradiction, which is why it is important to understand what he means when he says that.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

I don't really think his playstyle changes things that much. I mean if you just delete his prefaces for each paragraph, it would look just like a normal post. I really think he just makes more work for himself this way. (which is fine since he says he likes doing it). I think his history would have been a bigger deal if he tried to downplay his skills. He wouldn't have had to play the newbie card, but if he tried to act like he wasn't a fully competent player, then I would be worried. But I don't think he did that.

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell?

I see IC's go off about as often as I see newbies do it, and no, it didn't really surprise me when he went off. I think when Bog went off it was scummy, but not really in this casse. Is displaying emotion bad? It really depends on what you mean by emotion. If you present your case with passion and valiantly defend your points and put a lot of "emotion" into your post, then I think it is actually a good thing, but if you are talking about getting angry and just flaming the guy, thats different. I think if you can only win an argument with AtoE and bullying, then it is pretty indicative how strong you argument is in the first place, which is a bigger deal to me.

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.

What do you think of Amor changing his posting style in response to RI's observation? Do you think his arguments have been generally sound?

JimSauce doesn't seem to stand out at all to me. Not sure what that means.

[Radio_Interference]

Ffrrzzztt....

...ingel says yet...

Muerrto Wrote:

The information still appeared to be kind of held back IMO. I didn't even FoS you for it, simply said it's cause for me to watch you. Your experience alone is cause for that. I'd think that would be a compliment.

Something to hide?

[Response]

You bluntly stated that I had claimed to be a new and then "finally came clean". None of that was true, and so I wanted to correct your question. As far as you feeling the information was held back, thats fine. In my own mind I would dissagree, because by the time the question of my experience came up I believe I had already made a post with something in it besides random stuff, which is where I'm assuming people would have gotten the idea that I have some knowledge of the game from. I feel that if Bab hadn't asked me about my experience and I tried to pull a newbie card I'd be digging my own grave, as even before he had asked I still had to make that post that made people question my experience. But I can't tell you whether I would have eventually said if I had played mafia before, as I never really gave any thought to the idea of just randomly explaining what my background in it was.

[Obvious]

I hope that answers you're question 5 Now onto a few other questions I have time for.

[CKD]

It just took awhile for you to have time for your other posts, and I wanted to know if it was going to be right away, or in a day or two. I included it at the end because it was a random thought.

[CKD and Bab]

As far as it goes I'm starting to wish I hadnt dissagreed with Cerb more and more about the post cycle between you two being an endless circle. I'm glad that that's clearing up to a stop, but looking back through nothing (in my mind) was really telling. I feel that Bab is what he claims to be, a newbie player, because I feel that his posts have made a realistic progression as far as ability goes. If he ends up turning out being a mafia player the planned this all along then good job for him for faking his way through his first game, using a playstyle that he will never be able to use again, and generally screwing over the actual meaning of this being a newbie game. Unless something comes up I just don't feel that I could support a vote for him first day. If the problems persist through to second day, then I could see myself voting for him for his "mistakes". I have a little bit of a problem with CKD, as more people then just me have been confused by some of his responses (my mistake saying he was reaching, for example), and I do feel that some of his posts kind of give false hope promises where it just sounds like he's saying something (The comments about CKD making a case), but that could very well just be me misinturpriting his posts. I'm watching what CKD is posting carefully, and with my next post I will probably have a few questions and comments directly for him. I plan on reading through the interaction between him and Bab again tomorrow, should be interesting.

[Questioniare]

1.

Already answered in this post.

2.

Occults deadline support came at a slow point in the game, and although I believe that it was a tad bit early for something like that, his responses covered himself well. He never gave any indication that it was anything other then a way to get people to post more, and from what I've read of him in other games it doesn't seem that out of the blue. Not that I put a lot of stock in meta'ing, but it does have its merrits.

3.

WLC and Backinblack lurking does bother me, because they have both shown to be able to articulate there points well, and bring up some kind of discussion when forced to. I wish that they would do this more, even if it means parts of there posts are just filled with the general random stuff. I understand them wanting to keep there ideas to themselves to a point, as I tend to do it to a point to, but repeatedly staying out of the picture does bring up the question of if they're trying to stay back on purpose though.

4.

Stating definitions is great, and stating theory as far as what helped you construct your thoughts is fine too, but just randomly breaking out into "what are your scumtells" or "This is this from the wikipedia, heres a super indepth explination of all the theory behind it that I could have just summed up" is kind of a pain to bog through. I didn't particularly like Cerb3 bringing up the VI thing to the point that he did. I felt that he brought up the arguement, presented all sides, then chose the safest one for himself. Maybe logik'ing everything is how he plays, maybe it isn't.

5.

As Cerb stated, I wouldnt really be posting any diffrently if I dropped the tags before my thoughts. I feel they just kind of give people the "gist" of who and what the following section pertains to. It also adds a little flavor to the game.

6.

As I've previously stated, I do find it surprising how he responded, I dont think its very comparable to bog though. Bog freaked the hell out. I don't think that displaying emotion is nessasarily a scum tell, but if someone never does it, then it can be seen as them breaking there posting habits, which does bring up suspicion.

7.

Meh, I like JimSauce. I'll need to read through Amors posts more thoroughly. Nothing offhand anyway.

*Transmission out*

[BridgesAndBaloons]

BaB, you say that you think the discussion was getting better, but in 263 (two posts before where I said we should move on), you said this:

[conversation is circular]

Why the change?

It wasn't a change. You're probably misreading me (but you may be trying to emphasize this?). I thought the discussion was getting more and and more helpful, mostly thanks to Cerb, but then CKD responded with post 259, and the exact same stuff was brought up. I thought it would help the conversation, but he has been bringing up the same points against me. Thus the conversation between CKD and I was cyclcal, though overall, the discussion was improving.
I also misinterpreted what you said as wanting a deadline, I'm not sure how I got that. Anyway, I only thought it was

slightly

scummy. Not too much of a tell.

CKD Post 293:

BAB---

1.)

Stop putting words in some one's mouth. This is not the first time you have done this.

You have no right telling me what I want.

I don't want the town to think you're scummy. I want the town to have more evidence to see who the scum is.

I want them to decide for themselves.

Since i so strongly believe you are the scum, I want the town to have more evidence about you.

Please explain to me why you have an issue with my statement? You want people to have more evidence that I am scum, right? So how is that any different than “you want people to think I am scummy”?

There is a

H-U-G-E

difference. I don't want to persuade people, that's bad play. I want to provide Evidence, and I want everyone to come up with their own Analysis. Imo that's the most pro-town thing to do, gathering evidence. It's kind of a pet-peave telling me what I "want." Don't do it. I got pissed when you did it to Amor and I really got annoyed when you did it to me. The correct (but wordier) phase is "you want people to have more evidence so that they themselves can decide if I am scummy or not. Of course, since you believe I am scum, more evidence will probably lead to other people thinking you are scum." Does this clear it up?[/quote]

You want people to think I am scum given the “evidence” that I had not posted a case yet. How is this evidence that I am scummy? if you have answered why this is scum evidence please repost.

. You did hint that you had a case (I'm not the only one to think this someone else posted this recently). Anyway, not coming through with a case is not pro-town, and thus scummy. Don't bother saying here that you weren't hinting, because I'm not the only one to think you did.

2.)

If you still want to push that my DIRECT examples were vague, please explain how my vagues examples are scummy.

you avoided this question, while playing the semantics of the word “vague” But please answer the question (if you have answered it before, please repost it if you could). Why were my specific examples (even though I included the statement that almost anything could be considered scummy) evidence that I am scum.

Did you read post 261? I'm guessing not. Basically, vague was the wrong word. Your statements weren't vague. Again, you're hammering me for using the wrong word again. Trying to de-credit me?

Please let me know when you have read all of my posts. You ask the same questions. I think they're an attempt to de-credit me, so I'm going to refer you to all of my previous posts. I have asked you to re-read my posts numerous times and you never acknowledge that, so I'm going to assume you haven't been reading all of my posts. That's three. I'm not avoiding your questions, I've just answered them way too many times.

more specifically, (see above for first bolded statement) and I never assumed your motivations. (see my previous posts).

5.) I know you think I am scummy, but I still don’t really know why. Please explain to me why you think I am scum. Give me 3-5 “points of evidence” why I must be scum. FI you could, please put it in a separate post, than the answer to the above questions, I want to make sure I don’t miss them.

This is an original point in this post. (Points 3 and 4 can be answered my reading my posts) I have some things to say, but it will take a while and I barely have enough time to respond to the current discussion right now.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I've been really busy and only got a chance to respond to a couple things. If someone directed a question to me in the past 2 pages that I missed,

please let me know!

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

Yes, he has been doing it far too much. Although I'd like to point that he seems to be doing them far less. I think he is legitimately a new player to mafia, but he still used them far too much. He made too many mistakes in the begining which I find kind of scummy. It could be because he is a newbie, but I'm not quite sure. I think that he shouldn't have hidden behind the title of newbie so much and just accepted making a mistake. It's kind of a null-tell. He's at least clearly improving.
Oh yeah, and I apologize for my thousands of newbie claims. Waaaay too much.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

At first I thought it was scummy, (clearly). But I've changed my mind. He actually seemed to have been sliding into the background recently which was scummier than approving the deadline, but all the sudden you come along and really get things going with some cool questions. and you answer them yourself. I really respect you as a player right now.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

Oh hell yeah it bothers me. I have decided that I am going to take the hardline against lurking. Lurking is a scum-tell, unless it's the person's meta. But if it's the person's meta, that's a horribly lazy way to play that I have no tolerance for. The only way to change that is to punish lurkers. Bottom of the line: Lurkers piss me off more than anything in this game. Bib hasn't improved, and he is posting so little and only when he gets prodded.

It's almost enough for a vote from me.

. However, I only get one vote, so I'm going to

Angry disapproving face: Bib

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

I love theory discussions. Especially in a newbie game it's useful. I don't think semantics are scum tells. I think they are extremely important and fascinating.
HOWEVER, if the person only posts theory, that's scummy. But no one is fitting into that, I think.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

He never really claimed to be a newbie. I caught a post of him that revealed he had extensive knowledge of mafia, and I wanted to catch him in a lie. That's why I asked my question. I pretty much say no to all of those questions. Did he ever "claim" to be new?

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell?

Yes. I think that it definitely is a scum tell. Post 212 I make this very clear, and seeing if CKD would get emotional was one of my reasons for my strong weird attack. If someone has a good reason that I'm wrong, I would love to know.

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.

Oh yeah I have some stuff on JS that I want to put up, but unfortunately I'm extremely busy this week. I don't know when I'll get a chance.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Muerrto's questionairre brings up some interesting questions that should make it clear what everyone thinks about more or less important issues, so it's interesting to read all the responses, and also a good start point for me to organise some thoughts.

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

I don't think it's the number of claims that bother me, but the moments they are used, and it contradicts some other behavior of BaB to me. On one side coming up with theories, suggestions, and trying to come across experienced, but other times playing the newbie card.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

I don't know. I still think a deadline at page 2 is strange, even more so if a townie would support it. That said, it could be used for discussion, what actually happened.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

Lurking bothers me a bit. I often feel sorry that I'm not posting more, part of because I'm not sure what to say, part of because I'm too lazy for my own good (ie, reading the topic but not making notes, thinking I can post later, and than keep postponing). I really don't think lurking is a scumtell. I've lurked in all the games I was town (because of confusion and the laziness described above) and in the game I was scum in I posted a lot. I always feel scum should and would try to keep up with posting to know what's going on and to influence what's going on.

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

To a certain extend it is necessary. One-on-one application of theory is quite likely not possible, so you need to specify and explain how the theory you are thinking of applies to the current situation. And other should respond to that, to clarify, and to post their opinions on the theory in this case. But it should also be in context, the situation in the game should be involved, so it doesn't end in a pure theory discussion which indeed will distract from scumhunting.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

His style comes across quite professional (or emotionless to stay in your terms), so that could be a plus to hide scumminess. But still, his posting style is not immune to contradictions, or bringing on bad arguments. And that's the most important part in scumhunting. RI brought up interesting points and arguments, and that's not really because of his posting style, but because (so it seems to me) he's a townie who is really looking for scum.

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell?

This is something I already talked about, I think. I don't really know what to think of the BaB/CKD interaction. CKD at times genuinely seems to respond as a townie who's frustated with behavior in the game (in this case BaB), and at times I feel he could be scum who is just trying to find someone he can make suspicious.

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.

To answer JS's question here as to why I feel this way about his behavior: it's not one specific quote, or post. Just the general style of responding/arguing. Not on the foreground, and not too far on the background, trying to see which responses get follow-up from other players and such.

[curiouskarmadog]

everyone--

I plan on voting (and presenting reasoning ) soon. I just wanted all my questions answered first. I agree that we are entering (should already be in) the stage where voting will be telling.

as for the open questions posed:

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

I have seen some alts. come in and play the newbie card before when they were scum. I made notes of this in my intial read of the game when I replaced in, and I think that might have made BAB angry. I do not think that BAB is an alt. I believe that he is probably a newbie. I think that his attacks are misguided, but I do believe he thinks I am scum. Justified? No, I feel he has tunneled visioned on me. To the point when it is getting unhealthy for the town (lying, attempting to goad, ignoring points). Now, this will not be understood until end game or when you find that I am town. But if he truly is town, and I am killed tonight or hung today, he is going to have much to answer for tomorrow. I dont feel that his posts are numerous, but intially lacked organization, however, I think (hope) that is improving. His opinion and post do matter, even though I find them fustrating. He has made a strong stance on me today (the strongest anyone here has made to anyone). I just hope that he doesnt keep a blind to everyone else today.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

I think I mentioned this when I first entered the game. Though I find his asking for a deadline on page 2 strange, I dont think that asking for a deadline is scummy. I have asked for deadlines as town and as scum. I think it is a null tell. I dont think he cared if it was retractable or not, but most deadlines here tend to be retractable upon request, so I think it is believable.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

Yes. I dont feel like it has improved, I asked him about it and he has replied, ball is still in his court on if he will continue. Lurking in itself is not a scum tell. I have lurked in a boring game or when I dont have time. Lurking combined with other things (like poor cases, votes, Bandwagons) is a scum tell.

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

Theory discussion are not a scum tell and occur frequently is newbie games. They do distract but they are needed in newbie games. What you need to watch for are those who ONLY discuss theory. Semantics are used and are being frequently used in this game. They should be noted as a possible scum tells, when they are relied upon to avoid questions and back track from previous attacks.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

I still dont believe his is not an alt., I dont think he ever said he was inexperienced (maybe I am wrong), but he did say he wasnt an alt. I think a better question is what should we think if it is discovered that he IS an alt. I dont think his posting style hides emotion and dont have a problem with the style.

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell

Well, if you ever played in a game with me before, you know I do get "emotional". I also tend to attack anyone who pushes a case that I am scum, based on the fact that I am emotional. Twice now I have found scum who have tried to push this (can provide links of completed games if desired, both games I was attacked for being "emotional" by scum, one game that I was hung for it). When someone fustrates the piss out of me, I get angry. I have nothing to hide so I type as I see it.

7. Don't have anything about Amor or Sauce at this time so if anyone else does please put it up.

Why do you feel like you dont have anything on Amor or Sauce?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Looking for a replacement for backinblack.

[Amor]

So here we go:

1. I want everyone's opinion on BaB's 'newbie' claims. Several points: Are they sincere? Are they too numerous? Are they justified? Should it matter?

Well, BaB is definitely a newbie, so in that way he's sincere. Things like not realizing we can't edit posts is a good sign he'a legitimitely new; I don't think he's actually an alt that's acting newbie to throw off suspicion or whatever. I do think he hides behind it very often, and that it doesn't explain the scummier things he's done. It's important to remember that scum have their own set of newbie mistakes, and I think BaB has fallen right into them.

2. What's your opinion on Occult's/my support of a deadline and his claim that it was just to spark discussion? He claims he was under the assumption it was retractable, is that believable? Also, was this a scum tell?

Sure, theoretically the town never wants a deadline because the town wants longer days. But we're all players as well, and we want to play in an interesting game instead of one where nobody posts anything of consequence. I see that as what motivated the decision, so it's a null tell. At the time nothing much had happened, so it wouldn't be that easy to "start discussion" as some have said. As for the retractable thing, most deadlines on this site seem to be retractable, so it's a reasonable assumption. I am, however, a little wary of the "it was to spark discussion" excuse when used for anything.

3. Does WLC/Black lurking bother you? Is it a scum tell? Have they improved?

It bugs me a bit that they aren't contributing. I'm uncertain whether it's a scum tell or not, as it could be an attempt to stay out of the spot or just plain busyness/disinterest. I'd have to say that it's a little scummy, not enough to make a case on alone but still something to consider. As for getting better, WLC has stayed pretty consistent, but he usually at least posts new content. BiB is getting replaced, so obviously he wasn't.

4. Do theory discussions distract from scum hunting? Are they useful? Can semantics and definition discussions be used as scum tells etc?

If someone is using theory to support a case, it's perfectly reasonable to attack or discuss that theory. As long as that argument doesn't overtake the argument about scum, then it's fine. It can also be used to generate discussion if there's really nothing else to talk about. I don't really see it as a distraction, but I don't think that it's what the town should be focusing on.

I don't think arguing about semantics is scummy, but I do think it's a waste of time.

5. Does RI's playstyle make it easy for him to hide his emotions and opinions? Does he seem more experienced than he first claimed? Did it bother you that he claimed to be new and not an alt then finally came clean about his extensive history with werewolf etc.?

I was initially worried about RI, because on another board I saw a player using a post restriction to post a lot of fluff, so that he would seem to write a lot while saying very little. This hasn't been the case, though. It's mainly served as a way to organize RI's thoughts, which has actually made his posts clearer. The werewolf explanation is a reasonable one. He didn't really claim to be new, it's reasonable to play in a newbie game when you're playing on the forums for the first time.

6. Did it surprise you to see CKD go off on BaB? Was it normal for an IC? Was it coincidence Bog did the same thing earlier? Is displaying emotion a scum tell?

I was surprised to see CKD go after BAB like that, because he had seemed very reasonable in his earlier posts. I don't really think being an IC or being scum had to do with it, as I can see how BAB's posts would be frustrating. The Bog thing is also just a coincidence. Showing emotion is another thing I don't think helps the town at all, but it's not really scummy, as it can happen to anyone.

What do you think of Amor changing his posting style in response to RI's observation? Do you think his arguments have been generally sound?

I would respond to this more, but I've explained why I changed my posting style pretty clearly. As for my arguments, I certainly hope they're sound.

[cerebus3]

I would respond to this more, but I've explained why I changed my posting style pretty clearly. As for my arguments, I certainly hope they're sound.

Why did you feel the need to respond to this? This wasn't directed at you and you have explained this before. Paranoid?

[Amor]

Why did you feel the need to respond to this? This wasn't directed at you and you have explained this before. Paranoid?

I thought you were suggesting a question to add to the rest, and Muerrto said that we should respond to the questions about us.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

td replaces backinblack167, effective immediately.

[td]

Hi, beginning to read now.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Welcome td, looking forward to your analysis!

[Muerrto]

Wow. Never have I played a game where everyone(except Td but he just got here) responded to all my questions hehe.

Awesome!

It seems like we all agree BaB is a newbie, some are more forgiving than others of that but the 'edit' thing and the 'alt' thing definitely point to newbie.

I was trying to find anyone who'd push this too far without mentioning that he does in fact look like a newbie.

The problem is, BaB is an easy target, and no one pushing harder to me makes me more likely to think he's scum because if he was town there'd be two possible mafia to push on him. With me and Amor on him right now(not saying I trust Amor 100% but I doubt he'd be on his partner with only 2 votes on him, and yes that's WIFOM) two mafia could've used the question and my answer to build a good case on him. Could've FoS'ed him or even voted him without too much suspiscion.

But they didn't. And that bothers me.


Sorry for the misunderstanding RI, just saying your experience level when your join date says 'newbie' made me more wary of you. I've played werewolf for years also but when I joined never said anything, but I only played online a couple months before here. With the added online experience we have to ignore your join date and treat you like another IC.


Cerb: I don't like meta'ing, analysing someone's posting style, etc ever as scum hunting. Reason being, alot of people say scum lurk...you'll never see me lurk, and I'm often scum and usually win(assuming my partner doesn't get replaced like my last game =p). I find hiding in plain sight works better so I'm always vocal and participating.

I found it funny that some people made comments on my 'townness' just because I came out with a large post then a bunch of questions. That's the best way to hide in plain sight, be vocal, act town. Don't assume someone's town just because they post alot and don't assume someone's scum for the opposite reason. Scum don't have to just post fluff and 1 liners.


So, after posting your own answers and reading others answers:

Who's your top suspect?


Me - Bab still. Sorry but you've been displaying newbie scum tells, not just newbie tells, also for the reasons I listed above.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

To Muerto (previous post)

You should unvote since it's my birthday. Nah I'm just kidding.

I also find it out that I'm not out. Apparently I acted extremely scummy, so I

should

be out by now. I think we're dealing with some very careful scum, possibly. However, there's a bunch of reasons that I can think of why this isn't happening:
1) If CKD is scum, then he couldn't directly* attack me back, it would look too OMGUS-like. Then his partner doesn't want to attack me because after CKD is unearthed it will be easy to find them?
2) Our scum is someone who has a very cautious playstyle, for example, WLC. He even knows what his own town meta is, which means he could EXTREMELY EASILY manipulate that. WLC might be scum trying to act like his town meta dictates he should. The fact that he brought up his own meta makes me very suspicious. If he was town, i would think he would have brought it up MUCH earlier (306).
3) Our scum don't want to attack me, since many people think I'm a pro-town idiot/newbie. They're afraid that this will look suspicious, which it would. In fact, this would be the smartest move for the scum, since Muerto was specifically looking for this.
4) You're scum, and you saw that noone attacked me and decided to use it as further evidence.

There's a whole lot more reasons besides me being scum. I agree though, it seems very strange that I haven't been lynched. Maybe one of those four is correct?

Also WLC has mentioned numerous times that I don't seem as new as I claim to be. He has also played extremely subtle. Maybe he was trying to attack me, but could only do so according to his lurking-type town playstyle?


*he indirectly he attacks me by defaming my credibility, though.


I'll hopefully post more come the weekend. Let me know if I miss anything.

P.S. I like how you answer your own questions.

[cerebus3]

Cerb: I don't like meta'ing, analysing someone's posting style, etc ever as scum hunting. Reason being, alot of people say scum lurk...you'll never see me lurk, and I'm often scum and usually win(assuming my partner doesn't get replaced like my last game =p). I find hiding in plain sight works better so I'm always vocal and participating.

What is this in response to? I don't remember mentioning meta'ing.

[cerebus3]

It seems like we all agree BaB is a newbie, some are more forgiving than others of that but the 'edit' thing and the 'alt' thing definitely point to newbie.

I was trying to find anyone who'd push this too far without mentioning that he does in fact look like a newbie.

The problem is, BaB is an easy target, and no one pushing harder to me makes me more likely to think he's scum because if he was town there'd be two possible mafia to push on him. With me and Amor on him right now(not saying I trust Amor 100% but I doubt he'd be on his partner with only 2 votes on him, and yes that's WIFOM) two mafia could've used the question and my answer to build a good case on him. Could've FoS'ed him or even voted him without too much suspiscion.

But they didn't. And that bothers me.

I see two people using these questions to push a Bab Lynch, they just are already voting him.

Besides, the idea that he wasn't attacked that harshly as evidence of his scummyness is pure WIFOM, and, as I understand it, it is a common scum tactic for the mafia to take opposite sides of an argument so that at least one of them come out on the winning side. Also, this implies that you would have thought it was scummy if a player voted for Bab in their analysis, which doesn't make sense considering that you admit yourself that it would be justified.

Who's your top suspect?

My gut doesn't like Amor, but I am not too sure yet. I want to hear more from WLC, and I want to see td post.

[curiouskarmadog]

hoping to get to this thread by Mon or Tuesday.

[Muerrto]

Cerb: I don't like meta'ing, analysing someone's posting style, etc ever as scum hunting. Reason being, alot of people say scum lurk...you'll never see me lurk, and I'm often scum and usually win(assuming my partner doesn't get replaced like my last game =p). I find hiding in plain sight works better so I'm always vocal and participating.

What is this in response to? I don't remember mentioning meta'ing.

Was including that in analysing his posting style, nothing more. All in the same line to me.

[Muerrto]

I see two people using these questions to push a Bab Lynch, they just are already voting him.

Besides, the idea that he wasn't attacked that harshly as evidence of his scummyness is pure WIFOM, and, as I understand it, it is a common scum tactic for the mafia to take opposite sides of an argument so that at least one of them come out on the winning side. Also, this implies that you would have thought it was scummy if a player voted for Bab in their analysis, which doesn't make sense considering that you admit yourself that it would be justified.

Lol I know it's WIFOM, I even said that:

not saying I trust Amor 100% but I doubt he'd be on his partner with only 2 votes on him, and yes that's WIFOM

But it's also logical. I've said this argument a million times but don't get into the habit of thinking everything that's WIFOM is useless dribble.

Scenario:

Dark alley, someone coming at you with a gun, is he:

A. going to shoot you?

B. going to shoot the person behind you with a knife?

Obviously A is much, much more likely, even though B is certainly possible(as we can see in just about every movie in existance). Is that WIFOM? Yes. But we can all agree since A is much, much more likely that saying A is most likely the case isn't WIFOM.

In this situation it's more likely that Amor and BaB are NOT partners due to their interaction, posts, voting etc. Can they be? Yes, but it's more likely they're not. Therefore if BaB is innocent there SHOULD be 2 mafia that could easily push for his lynch.

Also, I was voting BaB before my questionarre and everyone's answers so your argument is moot.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

You completely disregarded all the options I that said, one of which is actually occurring.
I think you're tunneling me, Muerto.

[curiouskarmadog]

You completely disregarded all the options I that said, one of which is actually occurring.
I think you're tunneling me, Muerto.

oh thats rich

[Muerrto]

You completely disregarded all the options I that said, one of which is actually occurring.
I think you're tunneling me, Muerto.

No, I'm not saying you CAN'T be town, I'm saying it's more likely you're not, that's mafia.